Return to Monkey Island (Zero Punctuation)

[@theescapist]

Watch this week's episode of Zero Punctuation on Prodeus - www.escapistmagazine.com/prodeus-zero-punctuation/ - Watch it early on KZbin via KZbin Memberships or Patreon for $2/month. www.patreon.com/the_escapist

[@mrrd4444]

This one felt personal so, uh. *Pats* condolences Yahtzee

[@evilmiera]

I mean I'm also an age-old fan of the games and I kinda loved it, even if I agreed with the puzzles being a bit too easy.

[@RacingSnails64]

It still astonishes me that so many creators these days are *so* comfortable giving their stories terrible horrible lazy shit endings. Like, I thought you guys were writers? Why did you stop writing? A doctor doesn't get to just stop working on a patient before the end of an open-heart surgery. This is the most important part of your story. Finish your job or don't embark on this journey in the first place.

[@hazukichanx408]

@@RacingSnails64 Well in fairness they only had... what, thirty years or so, to think of a good story and ending for a new game in this series (with other people making up their own stuff along the way)... ... ...So yeah, kind of inexcusable for a writer to crap out on the same fanbase they're so eagerly milking for cash. Not everyone loves a happy ending, I guess... but most people like some sort of satisfying resolution or climax to a story.

[@andreasbuehler1821]

@@hazukichanx408 There's also just so many weird hanging plot threads that go nowhere.

[@nobodyinparticular9640]

@@hazukichanx408 oh hey, that reminds me of a certain kung fu guy that's looking for sailors

[@DisturbedNeo]

The ending felt less like “Here’s a meta commentary on audience expectations and the state of the gaming industry” and more like “We ran out of money about 2/3rds of the way through, so, errrr…… here you go”

[@hithertounknown1989]

They clearly intended for the player to put the old Sea Monkey back together themselves and couldn't finish it.

[@user-lh7mt7zo7l]

Did they basically do a conker's bad fur day?

[@TheJadedJames]

I felt like once the game tells you the plot mcguffin is the nebulous “secret” of the island, there is only one place that kind of story is going when we are talking about the sequel to a comedy game from 30 years ago … and that’s exactly the direction this game went

[@Kmanagerz]

Broken age seemed to follow this same playbook. An amazing first half followed by “oops we ran out of Kickstarter money” with a disappointing and rushed end.

[@bluespaceman7937]

Nah, I didn't interpret it like that at all.

[@Radar_of_the_Stars]

This is probably one of the most scathing reviews I've ever seen him write

[@subtlewhatssubtle]

To paraphrase the man himself, you can only get truly angry over something you genuinely care about. He's also stated that he's invested in both witty adventure gaming and game narrative, so seeing both sort of just droop with this presumably final entry does the game no favors in his eyes.

[@oziaus]

Oh boy. He's tame these days.

[@DetectiveLance]

@@oziaus the difference is it's pretty easy to spew vitriol in your youth. To get a critic to get this pissed off after doing it for YEARS is impressive.

[@traviswilliams2348]

Tbf, I don't think measures up to his *flat stare at camera* "I hate your game" one.

[@AdahnFlorence]

Not even really scathing but you can definitely tell this game hit him harder than whenever he reviews something that's just awful even egregiously.

[@15oClock]

Megatron: "So, I have to pay $1.54 for soft serve? Is there a discount for three? Four? Well, I guess there's four of us. Alright, Starscream, you get a soft serve."

[@smugsneasel]

Starscream: But Megatron, I hate ice cream! Megatron: Statements like that are why you are unfit to lead the decepticons, Starscream.

[@EmperorSeth]

@@smugsneasel And as soon as Megatron's back is turned, Starscream grabs the wheel and drives them to get yogurt.

[@isaacmayer-splain8974]

@@EmperorSeth sounds about right

[@Megatron2100]

I didn't want ice cream anyway . . .

[@strangemobius]

Soft serve, Starscream? This is bad comedy!

[@DoobusGoobus]

I was happy to say this was one of the most charming games I played this year until I got to the ending. It's not "subverting expectations" when you use it as an excuse to not finish the character arcs you set up.

[@DuelerIsKing]

This 100%, its not smart its lazy.

[@TheJadedJames]

I get the frustration, but the while it didn’t have to go THAT meta, meta-ending kind of inevitable, because if there really was a payoff to central mission of this story, it is something that would have been explored long ago when the original creators were first toying around in this world. Coming back years later with this specific premise is basically cries out that an abrupt meta ending is the only way the story is going to go

[@HenonChesserPlus]

Someone should have told Andrew Hussie that around 2014

[@POolBacK]

I've just watch a very recent interview of Ron Gilbert where they said that the ending was pretty much where they spent most of their time. He clarified what was the secret (which is not the actual item) and said that since the original game, it was planned for this to be the secret. They left clues here and there in the first two games.

[@DuelerIsKing]

@@TheJadedJames I mean they were specifically talking about how they had all the ideas already to finish it right and do the story justice, you cant pull the "oops its too late so we just gonna do whatever now" card after that.

[@RiverM8rix]

What I’ve learned from the past couple of years is that when a reboot/sequel game opens with “From the original devs”, prepare for a lifeless clone.

[@RiverM8rix]

Back 4 Blood was billed as being created by ex-Valve employees. Which is to say whoever made it worked on Left 4 Dead, but didn’t spend enough time in the community to understand what fans would want from a continuation of the series. For Halo Infinite, 343 Industries seem to have treated the building blocks of their prized franchise as optional, moving them down on the checklist of their IP-defining franchise as things to patch in later.

[@RiverM8rix]

This is a separate comment, because this is a separate hot take. The only game series I can think of, which has had a constant iterative stream of new mechanics on top of the original systems for more than 20 years of releases is Pokémon. Yes, some of those iterations gave less changes than the games before it. Yes, the gameplay for the game has been made easier for a casual play through. And yes, the game graphics are always going to be outdated. But the back end mechanics of everything in those games has constantly been updated, year after year. Even though their main generational mechanics might be locked to three or four games, there’s always a bunch of other under-the-hood tweaks that stay around going forward.

[@ScrumChum]

​@@RiverM8rix back4blood wasnt made by ex valve(at least not in significant numbers) it was made by turtle rock devs who took credit for the hardwork of others. There is a good video that shows how much "made by the devs of l4d" was an exageration.

[@GBDupree]

This is why I'm apprehensive of Callisto Protocol. Its advertised so heavily as being from the original devs of Dead Space that it sends all the same red flags as these other reboots you guys mentioned that focused on that same thing. I do hope Its good though.

[@splitprune]

@@GBDupree uh oh

[@MyrmidonRadd]

Something I don't think the developers realized is that just because they stopped giving a shit, doesn't mean the player did. Even if the world as a whole has moved on, the past is not made pointless.

[@nicholasbarber8531]

I'm here day late and a dollar short, but that last sentence is genuinely really insightful and concise. Have an internet biscuit and a thumbs up.

[@MKVProcrastinator]

The unbridled joy that young Yahtzee's design fills me with is immeasurable.

[@alex.g7317]

@@armorhide406 pardon me?

[@vedranlucev1837]

Wow. The creators didn't bother to go more than three quarters of a buttock, so Yahtzee decided to tear them a new one.

[@coyraig8332]

But now it's 1 and 3/4 buttocks. Where is the last 1/4?

[@damienmstiles]

I just finished the game. Like Yahtzee, Monkey Island 1 was what really sparked my interest in video gaming as a kid. This felt deeply unfulfilling, like it was doing a victory lap for a game that didn't exist. There weren't any real stakes, the adventure lacked gravitas, and despite relying on nostalgia, it didn't build off of that. The one time there could have been an interesting twist with significant consequences (MILD SPOILER: Elaine finding out about how Guybrush's actions have affected others SPOILER END), the game just plays it off as if it didn't matter. The ending and its unlocked note from the devs made it seem as though the game was just their own personal sendoff. Not a humorous, narrative adventure with puzzles and satire, but something akin to an excerpt from a memoir. As if they forgot about their audience entirely... Just kind of bummed out about the whole thing really.

[@Darkmire]

Perfect summation! I'm glad some fans seemed to enjoy the game but I found it shockingly disappointing almost from beginning to end. They retconned the whole series (even the end of MI2) and other than a few post MI2 characters or character references, the post MI2 games barely existed and the ending of Tales was completely ignored. Which is ironic since this whole game is about the ending of MI2 getting somewhat ignored. Ron Gilbert made this game about himself but not in an interesting or satisfying way. Honestly, the writing was inexplicable to me. I like a lot of Gilbert's work but this was like he was having midlife crisis.

[@hjalfi]

Just finished playing it, and... bleah. Even disregarding the ending, there were so many interesting things they didn't bother to do. Representative example: fan favourite Murray shows up... and in his first appearance, he doesn't get a conversation tree. You can't talk to him.

[@jacknapier2089]

It could've been done well, even with the parameters or ideas used, cast of characters, and yes the art style. What completely of this whole game, even up to the original creator himself, is that everything about this game was done without strength, no confidence, taking safe options and still losing. Ron Gilbert spent more time complaining about Donald Trump along with other game liberal game developers with huge HUGE Trump Derangement Syndrome, which if you reverse this TDS it becomes STD, Sexually Transmitted Disease, where this STD rots the core of thinking ability. It doesn't help that all these creators of this (Older) generation gave in being part of the Entertainment/Hollywood system- there is no fire of creativity or having an old flame of wisdom. If I were to suggest a better sequel to MI, it would be liken to the idea of the 1992 Hook film, where there is the characters of Guy, Elaine, Chuck adults or even old people as the "real world", but haunted by a demon Le Chuck character as the return (re)call of adventure, youth, romanticism, and of course DEATH. Liszt Faust Symphony Mephistopheles movement for the imagination.

[@CyonisCyberFox]

You can tell this was more of a personal thing for Yahtzee, growing up a fan of the Monkey Island series and all

[@SIDEWAYS255]

Honestly this was hard to watch being almost certain Yahtzee was going to have his heart broken again. Never did I expect it to be so definitive.

[@bobbob3458]

The part from 5:22 onwards is the most genuinely bitter Yahtzee has sounded in a while imo.

[@horgh_japan]

And he's ALWAYS at least partly salty about everything. But then, would people tune in if he wasn't?

[@kieran10202]

Ron Gilbert is on a personal mission to get me to pay money for his games, get suckered in for 20 hours, and then make me smash my console in rage at his endings.

[@jcsturgeon]

Thimbleweed Park made me so mad that I almost snapped my keyboard across my knee and people had the nerve to LIKE it?

[@humphreybrogart8392]

If it takes you 20 hours to finish Monkey Island, I've got news for you

[@kieran10202]

@@humphreybrogart8392 it's not like I had a stopwatch running.

[@JStryker47]

@@jcsturgeon Even Sunset Overdrive was less abusive to the fourth wall, than that game was. Stupidest ending ever too. "This is all a game! You need to shut it down!" That's like writing a book, and for the ending, telling the readers to burn it.

[@nikkimvee4710]

@@jcsturgeon For real. What a way to ensure I never give the game a second playthrough or a recommendation. Even just drumming up a plot in my head it easily could have been something like The World's End, the Matrix, etc, anything to make the protagonists actually real human beings with consequences instead of it all just being made up.

[@SurrealKeenan]

"We've stopped giving a shit and so should you." Seems to be the mantra of writers for a lot of these legacy IPs

[@phnexOice]

At least Kojima has made it clear he's not making any more Metal Gear stuff, granted that's because of Konami but still

[@jackmesrel4933]

@@phnexOice Nah, Kojima stated several times that he wanted to work on others things and stop making MG games long before 5, but the man has integrity so even if he didn't want to 100% work on something, he still did his best

[@Sgt_Glory]

It's almost as if a satisfying ending that _isn't_ some meta thing taking a crap on their own work, or giant 'expectations subverted' f-u to the fans... Is actually the unique and original thing to do these days. This kind of extreme cynicism and inability to not devolve into nihilism began creeping into games around the time of Mass Effect 3 and now its as pervasive as a minefield made out of self-hating 'auteurs'.

[@gianlucarisa7726]

"...Everyone looks like the slapdash cardboard replica of themselves they put in their bed to fool the prison guards" Thanks, Yhatz. I was willing to give it a try, but now I will never unsee this

[@seeker38]

Assembling the skeleton of a dead space turtle so I could resurrect it as a distraction is still one of the hardest game puzzles I've ever done.

[@MeteoBahamut]

The Dig was great. It also disturbed and confused me as a child, though I could clear that up with a later playthrough.

[@Snapoff435]

The dead space turtle was the most personable character in that game.

[@bepd]

For me it was arranging the Sunstone, Moonstone and Worldstone by brute force because I didn't realize there was a solution in Plato's Lost Dialogue.

[@E1craZ4life]

Imagine if the answers to puzzles were generated by the player’s decisions leading up to the puzzles.

[@RustoKomuska]

maybe if AI generated games can ever become halfway decent we'll get something like that until then, there's DnD/real life

[@SpecShadow]

That's something straight out of Sierra mind. Glad they're gone.

[@appelofdoom8211]

@@RustoKomuska I mean theoretically a complicated flowchart would do. If you did A, B and C puzzle 1a would happen, If you did X, Y and Z puzzle 1d would happen.

[@Dough_Dough4]

Are you pitching something?

[@ezraclark7904]

@@RustoKomuska unexplored does it pretty well.

[@barachiel212]

DAMN. I felt those burns. And honestly, the devs completely deserve them. I've been on the receiving end of a few Author Tracts in my time with video games, and over half of them have made me swear, that if i *EVER* meet any of these game directors at a Con, I'm going to kick them squarely in the groin, then hand them a 5-page dissertation on why this is a metaphor for where my life has taken me.

[@wittyreviewer]

If there's one way to throw fans under the bus it's to show utter contempt. I don't mean churning out a mediocre or even bad product, because at least then someone somewhere cared enough to give you *an* experience, but to have an ending that's amount to the devs laughing at you for caring is how you lose any support you may have had. I don't know when it became a thing for artists or entertainers to openly mock their audience, and I don't mean in the sarcastic way a comedian might, but in a way that's saying, "If you're upset, then you're the losers we're laughing at, losers".

[@AlanVanDrake]

Damn right. The ending was a missed opportunity, the message that comes across is "give up your dreams, grow up", and the other endings feel like obvious delusions. With a little more effort in writing Ron could have used the damn plot hook of the secret being some reality altering power, and Guybrush being on the verge of turning his world into mundane wageslavery may have noticed something was amiss, that there was meaning in not giving up his dreams, to fight against his inner demons and insecurities and come out a better person. But no, Ron was dead set to make it end with a whimper.

[@CoolGobyFish]

They had better explaination of MI2 in The Curse of Monkey Island. This game just shows that the first two MI games were a team effort and Ron can't hack on his own.

[@bangormc3rd562]

The Rocko's Modern Life special from a few years back had a similar message-from-the-creators about creating things for nostalgia running through it. But it still managed to end in a way that didn't undermine the entire experience.

[@MusicoftheDamned]

I keep forgetting that special exists since I only learned of it well after the fact. I need to watch before I forget yet again, so thanks.

[@Sneeds_Feed_And_Seed69]

I still disliked it because we never got more of it. Same for the invader zim film that just covered the comics for half of it

[@mattkennedy9308]

Yeah, the Rocko one was about people caring too much about nostalgia to the point they don't enjoy anything else though... and it was part of the character growth realising they were stunting themselves by clinging to the past.

[@Sgt_Glory]

​​@@mattkennedy9308 which is pretty funny considering we still read and enjoy classical literature written centuries ago. Maybe it's just because creators are bitter their earlier work is liked more than their more recent work. People will likely remember Gilbert for The Secret of Monkey Island long after he's gone, but not much of his later work. Ask someone about Arthur Conan Doyle and they'll immediately recognize the writer of Sherlock Holmes. Maybe one person in a thousand will be able to name any of his plays poems, or even Brigadier Gerard.

[@Doctorgeo7]

The moral of the game is "We stopped caring and so should you". Good job unloading your problems onto other people, devs

[@ldmt1995]

How does it feel like to see everything you once loved be betrayed by the people you admired?

[@marc2live]

Unsurprising

[@ng.tr.s.p.1254]

Never expect anything good from a sequel of should've-stayed-dead series

[@bendavenport4136]

It makes me think “what horrible things did I do in a past life to deserve this?”

[@sleepygrouch8361]

It feels great

[@pilouuuu]

Typical 2022.

[@michaelfranke8622]

I hate the new trend of not finishing stories in a satisfying way because “it’s a joke” or it’s “subversive” it always just comes off sort of mean spirited to anyone who was invested in the work. Got that feeling with season 5 of Rick and morty, it felt like the writers thought anyone who cared about an overarching plot needed to be taken down a few pegs and all it did was put me off the series because it felt mean spirited. Seems like a lot of creatives are overthinking things in the effort to be fresh and subversive. “Hey guys isn’t it cliche for a story to have a satisfying ending that ties up the character and story arcs and intrigues you’ve been invested in? Everyone is doing it, it’s just so predictable. So now we are just going to end this in a lazy and unsatisfactory way while giving fans the middle finger and jerking ourselves off for being so clever.”

[@hollenhammer]

not to mention the green drink is heavily foreshadowed potentially hours prior, when Largo orders it and uses it to spit on the wall (wherein you use the spit for the voodoo doll)

[@bionicdragon5]

Yahtzee isn't just taking the piss out of Return to Monkey Island. He goes so hard on it because you can tell he's genuinely hurt by what its creators did. There's nothing worse than seeing a franchise you grew up with and love dearly finally return from obscurity only to realize the people who worked on it don't give a shit.

[@MrDUneven]

"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames"

[@RaSkipper]

@@MrDUneven it feels great, Rich

[@pokemonmanic3595]

“Oh have you actually invested mental energy into all these intrigues and relationships we’ve spent the last few hours building up? And are expecting a pay off to all that? Pah! Talk about missing the point, what a sad lame-o you just be. The End!” Oh so it’s a case of Danganronpa V3 syndrome then.

[@Aconcernedrifleman]

That honestly felt like more of a, "Dear god these games are soul-crushing to make, please stop asking for them we beg of you." This feels more like a, "Maybe the fulfilling narrative was the friends we made along the way."

[@a.dennis4835]

V3 is my favorite game in the series but it has the worst ending by far.

[@CheesecakeMilitia]

Nah, V3's ending is hysterical. A super definitive way to kill the series for good so the authors can go do other things, but a superbly entertaining one at that.

[@a.dennis4835]

@@CheesecakeMilitia You mean the same series that the creator is hoping to bring back?

[@shadowmaydawn]

@@a.dennis4835 where did you learn that?

[@crisis8v88]

@4:18 "Every step of the above described esoteric process for the Monkey Island 2 [puzzle] was an opportunity for jokes, worldbuilding and funny touches. Without lots of little branches and twigs on the apple tree, there's not enough room for the apples to grow..." What a delightfully insightful observation for something that makes well-conceived games amazing and less well-conceived games feel like they're full of padding. It's like the Twin Peaks Paradox; some folks wanted to solve the mystery when it was having the mystery in the first place that provided context for exploring the quirky world.

[@TripleExposurePhoto]

That last zinger was not like the rest! He took his time with it and really really felt it.

[@Cheesus_ch]

When I originally beat this game I reasoned with myself as to how its ending is fine, but after thinking it through, none of my reasoning could convince me that THAT was okay.

[@djdomain]

I'm happy enough believing that there were only three Monkey Island games, with Curse having a good ending to finish the series on.

[@fahamedi]

and I imagine Escape From Monkey Island as an adventure/vacation that Guybrush went through after Curse

[@flybydeath]

There needs to be a new rule that Ron Gilbert isn't allowed to work on the last 10% of any game he makes.

[@ArcaneAzmadi]

I've often thought it odd that Yahtzee is so dismissive of Curse of Monkey Island, because I know quite a lot of people who consider it to be the pinnacle of the series. It had voice acting for the first time, which was REALLY good voice acting in defiance of video game standards at the time, the art style provided the best controllable graphics experience since Dragon's Lair, only _properly_ controllable this time, and it contained an ENORMOUS amount of hilarious gags, challenging puzzles, and unforgettable one-liners ("That means Mr. Fossey is-" "Aye captain! FREE BANANAS FOR THE WHOLE CREW!" "-a complete and utter loon.").

[@ThePreciseClimber]

I think point n click adventure game voice acting was good most of the time, even in the 90s. King's Quest V was a mixed bag, especially with Cedric the Poisonous Snake Owl but they quickly improved big-time with King's Quest VI.

[@yuurou7927]

I know people laugh at old point and clicks make you feed a goat with jar of water from a basement that you use a wire from winning third place at cheese rolling contest to pick open, but these kind of oddity had a certain charm to it.

[@Frag-ile]

Sure these things went a bit off the rails towards the ends of the era, but now as the games made a slight return it seems they're so afraid of that particular bugbear they fail to design puzzles at all.

[@thosebloodybadgers8499]

@@Frag-ile I mean, if I were to choose between a Skyrim level "push-the-stones" puzzle and whatever a monkey with a typewriter / AI that was fed 4chan schizophrenic rants made, I'd go with the former. At least it makes some sense and doesn't leave you feeling like an idiot for failing to realize that the obvious progression route was obtaining a key from a sparrow you shoot down when you combine a wrench with some tape and hurl it like a sling.

[@apathicious]

The rubber ducky puzzle from The Longest Journey will stay with me till my grave.

[@jasonrhome710]

Pre-internet era was also a good way to figure out who the other nerds in class were when y'all start talking about what puzzles you get stuck on. (Ended up with a running back-and-forth with a classmate while we were trying to work through Day of the Tentacle.)

[@hollenhammer]

that "charm" comes from the person on the other end of the line when you call up the sierra hotline

[@Word46]

I don't think I've seen Yahtz drag a game kicking and screaming into the bushes and brutally maul it to death like this in a while.

[@strangemobius]

Games with an in-game hint book that actually helped deepen the puzzle design: Tunic.

[@samuraicupcake289]

Games with a hint book that actually makes the game more fun by locking it behind a little mini game : Machinarium

[@spotmyimpactbro]

"We've stopped giving a shit and so should you". I've never seen someone so perfectly capture the end of Danganronpa 3.

[@hillaryallan5426]

I was pretty let down with the ending as well. It makes a lazy 'And it was all just a dream' ending that chafes because the player had to suspend their disbelief and waste what limited time they have between working and surviving the horrors of reality till their next paycheck, only to have the ending tell them 'welp it's time to grow up now. Off you go. That's it, go home. Now your kids can experience disillusion just like you did." The authorial intent of Ron Gilbert is so greedy it doesn't let the fans of the games even enjoy a conclusion. What a malicious rug-puller.

[@Eriktifft]

His analogy for why more complicated puzzles are important for writing, jokes, and world building articulates my thoughts on the subject in a way that I never could myself. I just thought I was getting old and letting nostalgia take over, but there are reasons why old point and click adventure games felt like fully realized worlds back then and why most modern games still just look and feel like pretty pac-man to me.

[@Eriktifft]

Also, I am probably in the minority, but I started out with Curse and so I have never really been a fan of Ron to begin with. When I went back and played one I loved it, but two didn't fully grab me, especially the ending. I am not surprised at all to find that this new one has the same exact issues that two had. Full disclosure, I did really like the writing in The Cave even though that game didn't fully live up to its potential either.

[@twofacetoo75]

@@Eriktifft 100% the same situation. Curse was my intro to Monkey Island and I rank it the highest of all the games. Even as good as the original two MIs are, they're painfully obtuse at times, with the 2nd game in particular being probably the hardest in the entire series. Sure, they're good and all, but anyone who claims Ron Gilbert is the DaVinci of gaming because of them is huffing fumes.

[@lastburning]

​@@Eriktifft I also have the same situation. Curse was my first game. Then Secret and then Revenge that I never finished until very recently.

[@foggygolem]

4:19 If there were ever a better hit on a nail's head than this paragraph, I wanna know because GOD. DAMN.

[@DPCP-h9u]

Man, I can feel the anger in poor Ben's voice. Just imagine, invest your childhood in one of the most influential PC games on history, join the crowd of "I hope someday it gets finished", even when deep down you feel you shouldn't because they won't, and finally get the promised sequel, just to see how the creators spit on their legacy. I haven't heard him this annoyed since Duke Nukem Forever.

[@UnfoundFilms]

Adding this to the playlist of ZP reviews with surprise cameos by the Riddler. Which oddly enough doesn’t include Arkham Knight.

[@oalquimista409]

The video game equivalent of a meeting that could have been an email.

[@Tamisday]

It was so rude of them to come back and be like, “Hey that shitty ending you got over twenty years ago? Well, we made a sequel. Surprise. It’s the same shitty ending.” Like the past was the past, why did they need to do this? Who was this for? Because it didn’t feel like it was for the fans.

[@pogmaster6961]

5:25 you can physically see the anger he has

[@LonelyAncient]

so I finally played through the series cause I had to see what made Yahtzee so mad. Many walkthroughs later I can say without a doubt I agree. I will talk about the ending so [spoiler alert] so in the end the big secret of monkey island is basically one of those gag shirts "I went to ______ and I only got this stupid T-shirt." and the build up where you solve a series of puzzles and find the key to the chest part by part only to have that as the big conclusion is super disappointing and then it's followed up by a sequel hook (a guide said the conversation changes based on your choices and in some of them it's not a hook but I don't feel like replaying it to find out). it felt like one of those low quality true crime KZbin videos where you "need to subscribe to watch part 2" but it might never come out based on their non-regular upload schedule.

[@Luna-Fox]

Shame that the endings bad, felt the exact same way about Thimbleweed Park, the sadder part being that that game actually had an intriguing story

[@lindsaycooper3213]

Oof. Forgot about that copout of an ending too.

At least with Thimbleweed it made sense, being inspired by Twin Peaks and X-Files 'n' all.

[@AmateurHuman19]

The ending made me let out a loud "DAAAAAAMMMNNNN!!!" because man, shots fired.

[@giloguy101]

I hate this increasingly common trend in modern media where the writers very blatantly or just flat out say things like "why are you enjoying this thing? You should stop enjoying it" and said thing is the thing that they fucking made!

[@alexrexaros9837]

I read somewhere that just like George Lucas, Ron Gilbert also went the same way. He grudgingly looks back at the past and taunts you with visions of it. He wants to do new stuff but he's stuck with a fanbase he does not want to carter to and who disrespect it, and he repeats the same mistakes he did prior. Tales of Monkey Island had a better pay-off I'll tell you that much.

[@tanork47]

Just like with Steven Ogg and Trevor. No matter how hard you try the success of your best work will forever be there. I am sorry but I just can't understand why some creators and actors can't find the right mindset to let those wins lift them up over cursing them for being too good.

[@ThePreciseClimber]

It's a shame we never got Tales 2, especially with that Voodoo Lady cliffhanger. Alas, Telltale abandoned all their "traditional" point-n-click IPs after the commercial success of The Walking Dead.

[@kyoai]

I always assumed the secret of Monkey Island was that it had a looping underground lava labyrinth and that it was the base of operations for LeChuck, so I never felt after the first game that there was a reason to revisit what the "secret" is.

[@jameskowanko7574]

Yeah that would make the most sense. Really there are quite a few secrets on Monkey Island, it could have been any of them. But since the game never specified what the secret was, it became a running joke starting in Monkey Island 2

[@johannesseyfried7933]

Could that really have been the Secret though? Did LeChuck not originally wanted to impress Elaine by finding the Secret of Monkey Island so she would marry him?

[@CoolGobyFish]

@@johannesseyfried7933 the secret is the portal to hell and the tunnels that connect islands. that's the monkey secret I got out of the games. never occured to me there is more.

[@johannesseyfried7933]

@@CoolGobyFish But....I thought the Portal to Hell is connected to Big Whoop. 🤔 Didn't the Voodoo Lady tell Guybrush in MI2 that the only way to escape Le Chuck's revenge was to find Big Whoop?

[@CoolGobyFish]

@@johannesseyfried7933 Big Whoop is on Monkey Island. Guybursh got there though a tunnel in MI2. LeChuck mentions this in The Curse of Monkey Island.

[@MusicGeekery]

You've essentially articulated the very reasons why I was so disappointed with Return but had difficulty doing so.

[@alanfike]

Everyone knows The Secret of Monkey Island were the friends we made along the way.

[@TewbBelrog]

Thanks for rehashing the credits gag

[@mrfamous333]

@@TewbBelrog I thought it was rather spiffy.

[@Nerdznewznow]

I kinda love that their representation of LeChuck is an irate Pomeranian or should I say *P-irate*

[@kingsleycy3450]

I have learned not to get too excited over original creators returning to nostalgic IPs. Most of the time, you get meta commentaries about the IPs, think Prometheus and Matrix Resurrection. Mentally they had already left the franchises far behind.

[@somebonehead]

That's a good way to put it.

[@HenryWayat]

Twin Peaks The Return though.

[@vault13dweller15]

Well, but when it works it is great though. Fallout New Vegas was created by the creators of FO1 and FO2 and it was great. A lot better than 3 and 4 which didn't felt anything like old Fallouts.

[@namkha209]

@big stink the brapin king what did he do?

[@TheJadedJames]

Mad Max Fury Road was cool though

[@charlessaint7926]

A child Yahtzee is adorable.

[@cakeisamadeupdrug6134]

Oh I agree with all of this. The puzzles were easy apart from two obnoxious ones I don't think I ever world have gotten without a nudge in the right direction: getting in the store room and the rotating picture and date one), and lechuck being reduced to a passive aggressive co-worker is EXACTLY the vibe I got. When I played I felt like he was more a villain from Peep Show than monkey Island.

[@Right_Said_Brett]

I knew something was horribly wrong when I was stood there, as Guybrush, right next to LeChuck and I felt no tension, intimidation or fear whatsoever.

[@TheMrMeng]

Overall, I enjoyed Return to Monkey Island(although I've never met a Monkey Island game I didn't like) but that ending is pretty oof. It certainly made me appreciate Escape From Monkey Island's take on the secret a lot more.

[@slambangaction]

3:31 I haven't played that many recent puzzle-adventure games, but one I did play (thanks almost entirely to Yahtzee's VERY heartfelt recommendation), was Return of the Obra Dinn. There's your solution: just get Lucas Pope to design your puzzles for you!

[@guywith_dog]

2:00 there's a whole scrapbook for this. monkey island has always had loads of references

[@guywith_dog]

also, go fuck yourself if you wanted another fucking monkey wrench.

[@HoloCatHead]

I get the same feeling from most remake/sequels to decades old franchises nowadays. Everything sucks and then they died. The End. Leaving me to ask the question, "I paid money for this?"

[@neilsharpson996]

I will defend Monkey Island 3 with my dying breath. Gorgeously animated, brilliantly acted and absolutely hilarious. The high point of the series

[@hithertounknown1989]

I agree. It had the best art style. The backgrounds were done with so much love and care. This new one is just so cold and bland. You can think of the art style itself what you want (it's ugly), but it also let's you pointlessly scroll across an open area rather than creating real scenes. The designer just doesn't know how to do it.

[@MojoTheClown]

That's nostalgia talking. It's like a 7 out of ten, at best.

[@Kinitawowi]

It was one game too far for the SCUMM engine, honestly.

[@zigmar2]

I thought maybe, just maybe, there's a slimmer of chance ron might actually make a proper follow up to 2 and make a sane ending this time (even though his previous works had shown this to be a foolish expectation), but alas, no. After going through that, I probably won't play any of his future games, and can confidently say 3 is the monkey island game to play.

[@DuelerIsKing]

@@MojoTheClown Yep. Massive fan of the series but this is a 7 at best even with full nostalgia eyes. Even less of a score if you're one of those people who hate the art or whatever.

[@tanork47]

After just a hour finishing this and not playing the OGs I can see that they are fun little adventure games that are good but GOD that ending was like from someone who can't write a ending. But then again it was about the friends we made along the way.........

[@dryued6874]

> don't charge me 20 bucks I don't know if this is a call back to the "never pay more than 20 bucks for a video game" gag or not. I'll choose to believe it was.

[@benjaminguy8726]

Is it me or is young yahtzee's sprite just the cutest thing ever

[@mrburger]

While I was playing it, I was apt to talk to my friends about what I liked about it. But the ending was *maddeningly* bad, and completely shut me up about the game. MI2's ending was cheeky and "it was all a dream"-ish, but it at least had the good sense to come after a fully told and satisfying story, and plus, idk, maybe it's because I was like 8 when I first beat MI2, but I have always been enamored with that twist. I know it's technically not good writing. But 8yo me got dibs on how I feel about it. By contrast, the "it was all a dream" ending of RtMI rushes in at least one full story act too soon, shoves the rest of the plot out the window, and then even refuses to commit to *that.* By which I mean, all we get is one arbitrary screen's worth of this false, sad, Synecdoche, NY version of Melee Island. More of the park does exist somewhere off-screen, but we can't go there. There's no story left. Go away. Here's a letter from the creators implying that the Secret is this thing that's either heady or lazy or selfish depending on how you want to look at it. Like you, Yahtz, I just don't want to look at it, period. I'm unconvinced that Ron and Dave justified the brazen choice to brand this game as the "long-awaited" answer to the Secret. Even if they must have known that most *true* fans of MI don't care two licks about the supposed Secret. If the result was always going to be this proudly unfun quasi-introspective brain-shrug of an ending, then why not maybe table that idea and consider a different tack for concluding their decades old, unironically beloved, utter gem of a franchise?

[@aliendrone]

I like this review, it's honest and sucking on nostalgia. About the ending Yahtzee describes, i felt the same way with Thimbleweed Park, i enjoyed the game but the ending really made you feel like it was all for nothing.

[@mannhouse8014]

“How does it feel to live long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames?” - Rich Evans

[@bobloerakker7010]

You have great taste. The part where you describe the spitting contest was so on point, it was scary. That puzzle held me up for the longest time and only by walking into a store and sneakily reading the solution was i able to solve it. You nailed it. Monkey island 2 was amazing, but indeed the end was not that good. So many funny puzzles though! Sawing off a guy's wooden leg or tossing a rat in the soup to get the chef fired so you can take his job.🤣

[@stevezpj]

After hearing a Brit pronounce Caribbean that way then mentioning the "period key", I lost all hope! Then he redeemed himself with half-arsed :D

[@sempersolus5511]

I really hate when game devs make the game _about them_ like that. That can be how it starts production, but it has to develop a life of its own.

[@theredeyedraven7750]

Credit where credit is due: as a developer, charging 20 bucks to tell others of a project you've ultimately given up on sounds like an amazing way to make money.

[@NoahGooder]

this game felt like a stroll down nostalgia lane with a gentle kick in the nads at the end.

[@slothman1016]

I was pooping while watching this and yeah if the toilet paper was in another room that would be trouble. Good analogy Z.

[@CteCrassus]

That bit with the spitting contest illustrates why I liked Monkey Island 1 more than Monkey Island 2; Intricate and convoluted as that puzzle was, it was one of the *more* coherent ones in the game. I vividly remember MI2 running on *vastly* more copious amounts of moon logic that MI1.

[@espio87]

There were some puzzles that gave me that "Ah-ha!" moment but I'll agree that they aren't as hard as they used to be. Only twice I had to use the hint book but in my defence I had all the items needed for the solution; I was just applying them the wrong way. SPOILERS for the ending (and Thimbleweed Park): I am thankful there are multiple endings, that way I can choose to believe the theme park stuff was just some weird voodoo magic at work and Guybrush ends up resisting that stuff and goes back to the surface. This is the third time Ron Gilbert pulled this shit (MI2, Thimbleweed Park and now this), so yeah, I eventually get tired of it. To sum it up, most of the endings suck but the game before it is good. I respect you, Ron, you gave me a lot of wonderful childhood memories, but you're right, it is time to grow up and stop doing the same shit over and over.

[@magetsalive5162]

"Most of the endings suck, but the game before it is good" Where have I heard this before? _Flashback to Our Savior, Marauder Shields_ ...No, we don't talk about that game.

[@piyam5000]

I have super mixed feelings. This is basically what Elaine says to Guybrush on the way to the end. After all the effort you've put in, there's nothing that can make it all worth it. I guess yes..... But other stories/games manage :( I just don't know

[@Sneeds_Feed_And_Seed69]

Disagreed.

[@Sneeds_Feed_And_Seed69]

accepting mediocrity and butchered revivals of games only creates more mediocrity and bad games in the game industry.

[@Slinja]

Read that wrong for a second and was shocked that this game would dare to have multiple endings xD

[@almightyk11]

Somebody made a reshade for this that makes the graphics look less like pastel colours, and optionally gives it a pixel look. It is so much better.

[@s.m.2523]

Funnily I found the self indulgent meta endind abit LESS annoying in this than in thimbleweed park. Probaly because the game kind of establish it's "whishy washy ness", as you so well put it, from the start. While thimbleweed park while very silly still seemd to have a genuine half decent twin peakish murder/supernatural mistery going on untill, well, y'know, the ending. Maybe also it's having the devs letter at the end that help me sort of move on. By raising my shoulder and saying "eh, okay, glad they got that out of thir system, I guess at least there was some good jokes and puzzles along the way". Or maybe the fact that to me, Tales of Monkey Island felt like a fairly decent and good ending to the series in some way. Or Curse, hell. Curse of Monkey Island may not have been written and directed by Ron Gilbert but it was still good and y'know what it had ? An actuéal ending. Guysbrush and Elaine go happilly maried on a ship dispaearing in the sunset. Good ending there, satysfying. Maybe it's a good reminder that mmuch as one can love game designer like Ron Gilbert or Tim Shaefer, they don't give gold everytime and that's wy maybe sometime should be there to tell them "No, bad Gilbert, go make an actual ending this tim" or "No, Bad Tim, you stop wasting everytime and fund and actually finish the game even if it's three years late".

[@keith3761]

There were some very heartfelt moments between guybrush and elaine and his son. I thought the voice acting was top notch and full of emotion, the voice actor for elaine did amazing work with the new material, and it is about as good as a ending as we can expect at the end of an era of gaming. Life passes us all eventually, Maybe when Yahtzee is older and his wife and children are older and he is giving his last ZP he will have a different perspective about what it was all really worth, and if his last episode will meet the expectations of the people that grew up watching them.

[@pages4573]

@@BMask You're right the ending is sort of built up on, but I also think there should have been a proper follow through conclusion to it. They COULD have done both. They still could have tied up the loose ends of the story of monkey island while working in the main theme of it. At the moment, the ending just feels like a less subtle version of the second games ending. But without the actual twist of it.

[@ng.tr.s.p.1254]

@@BMask Seriously dude... Screenshot? What's next, L plus Ratio?

[@crixxxxxxxxx]

The real secret of Monkey Island is that Tim Schafer was the main reason for the first two games being good because it obviously wasn’t Ron Gilbert.

[@lax9586]

You can tell Yahtzee really had some feelings about this game since he not only tore it apart but was very descriptive about it. He is usually pretty harsh on games but damn this review really felt like one of his old reviews.

[@XxDyneXxFreeEnergyx]

From what I could gather his zero punctuation reception was " if you want to tell people how much you care about the monkey island series anymore how about just telling people rather than charging them money for your opinion"

[@xxkoumori]

It's always sad to see Yahtzee disappointed in a game when he obviously was looking forward to it. Hope the next game is a better one Yahtzee

[@SavageGreywolf]

"I don't know what the fuck happened between the mid 90s and now that made all new adventure games allergic to intricate puzzle design" It was that bit where someone pointed out that walking around rubbing the comically oversized map of the promised land you've been lugging around in your pocket on every doodad in the world just to figure out what coked-out hallucination the programmer was coming up with is bad game design, Yahtz. That's where it all went downhill for adventure games as a genre.

[@shankypanky8879]

In modern media, subverting expectations and often leading to disappointing endings has become the new norm and the very thing it is not supposed to be. Predictable.

[@Hysteria98]

Jesus fucking christ- even when the actual creators themselves work on recreating their legacy titles, they fuck it all up. Almost absolutely nothing is scared in the game industry, anymore. I'm so tired of seeing "Hey, we're bringing back that game everyone loved" and then bringing back utterly NOTHING of what made it great to begin with. Even when the corpos aren't involved- how do all these designers miss this??

[@EmperorSeth]

You know what I want. More friggin' Sam and Max games! Yeah, the last ones weren't that long ago at a cosmic level, but still!

[@TewbBelrog]

There still hasn't been a bad Sam & Max game and part of me still likes to keep it that way.

[@thewhyzer]

I'm still waiting for a Sam & Max Hit the Road Remastered

[@instathrill8845]

I sadly felt that way after Monkey Island 2, if you play the special editions with commentary the devs talk all the way through about how they dont give a hoot, they were annoyed with the fans complaining about the game not being long enough etc, so the specifically made things go here do this to go back and do that over and over again just to add time to the game. They had already checked out by the time they made MI2 which didn't leave me much hope for this latest one. The kid in me got extremely excited when i heard it was happening, the adult in me is a cynical bastard and expected it to be a complete flop. nice to see they kept the £20 gag / price tag mind.

[@leonardorestrepo5196]

Meta commentary is only as valuable as the service it does your plot or characters or themes. Dan Harmon does a "semi-solid" job of this on his shows: interrogations of meta narratives let you explore the dimensions of the characters you've written in a variety of contexts. It can mitigate any staleness a story has accrued over time. It can engage an audience's knowledge of shared symbols or experiences. It SHOULDN'T be an excuse for you to lord over how much smarter you are than your audience. That's not subversion, it's just contempt for the people who see your work and the work itself.

[@leonardorestrepo5196]

Re: I saw that, in the development process, Gilbert had to deal with harassment from fans over the visual style of the game. I'm still peeved about this ending, but that's still unacceptable behavior from anyone.

[@TuffMelon]

Honestly, I think the answer to why intricate puzzles have vanished is the same for why map design has seemingly become less interesting and more linear and detached from itself these days: File size limits. Back then you had to make the absolute most out of every single bit of the game since you only had so much space you could fit on a disc or set of floppies, so tightly looping maps, areas you reuse and complex puzzles let them get more from less, but now that people seem to have normalised games that go over 100gb or even as high as 150gb, there's no reason for them to really bother with either of these things when its so much easier to just not do it. (Not even to mention that some games are so damn big that QAing every single puzzle would be the worst, so they have to make them as blatantly obvious or short as possible so the game doesn't release with puzzle after puzzle that's only 'obvious' due to the dev knowing the answer)

[@jadelor]

Ron Gilbert was so fumed to view Yahtzee's Cave review back in the day, I feel someone should link this one to 'em just for the hand shandy and grandma's sweater bits.

[@RaRa-eu9mw]

If Ron bothers watching past the hopelessly inaccurate first 30 seconds, that's a bit weird.

[@yhposolihP]

Well, I'm glad your balls have never stuck to your thigh in the gym shower, then. Talk about an awkward public experience.

[@bluedragonninja]

tell me about it, loved the game until the end. the sad part for me was that I stop and save at the last puzzle for the day (dinnertime and didn't know it was the last puzzle) came back the day later, solve the puzzle and then the ending.....

[@danielgehring7437]

I am saddened there wasn't a reprisal of Yatzhee's Irish accent.

[@pfefferle74]

Ron Gilbert: "Well, how else would you make a control scheme that easily lets you skip forward and backward through lots of dialog?" - Ren'py clears its throat.

[@zorn2017]

Curse of Monkey Island was great

[@sasamichan]

that spice on the fish puzzle was in easy mode too and you can mess it up. What was in hard mode that wasn't in easy mode was the learning and telling of highly detailed fish stories that and a few other things but mostly that. Hard mode wasn't actually that hard and is the default setting used in walkthroughs so if you do get stuck and don't want to use the in game hint system for some reason you'll get directed to an answer that is different between the two versions. Still its enough of a challenge that even some one who JUST finished Monkey Island 2 the week before will get stuck on a puzzle or two while doing his live stream.

[@sumez4369]

I don't think I've ever seen Yahtzee's comments on a game echo my own so closely. I've said most of the same things this video does almost word for word. As a *massive* Monkey Island fan, it's hard for me not to get disappointed by this sequel. It's not awful, but it should have been a lot better, and I actually think the strong praise the game has received most other places is kinda detrimental in the context of the way the game kinda ruins the nature of classic adventure game puzzles.

[@CrossOfGoldWJB]

Wow. The ending for this sounds a lot like the ending for Deponia Doomsday. Just a big middle finger that still charges you money.

[@aaronlaluzerne6639]

Maybe they plan on making a 4th game and plan on making that game worth playing and caring about.