Reverse Engineering Neoplatonism with Bishop Maximus

In this episode of our series with Bishop Maximus, Bishop describes entering the monastic tradition, the role of studying Greek philosophy had on his life, stoicism's resurgence, and the caution the Eastern Orthodox church uses when considering a change in tradition.
Bishop Maximus (Marretta) is the Titular Bishop of Pelagonia, under the jurisdiction of the Holy Synod of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece. He does missionary work in Latin America and Africa; and is the Superior of the Hermitage of St. Ignatius, a Spanish-speaking Orthodox monastery on a mountain by Santa Cruz Naranjo, Guatemala. He also gives classes and lectures in philosophy, theology, history, and languages at St. Photios Orthodox Theological Seminary in Etna, California.
Website: monasterioortodoxo.org
PayPal: paypal.me/BishopMaximus

[@PeterStrider]

It is truly a privilege to have an opportunity to listen to two men respectfully discuss the most personal and intimate spiritual/existential experiences and relate to each other with kindness, acceptance, humility and grace. The journey of Bishop Maximus in a much fuller way encapsulates a journey I have been making, from a past history of traditional Catholicism to a desert of agnosticism and gradually back toward Orthodoxy via the Ancient Greek philosophers, though trying to incorporate my knowledge of modern science and philosophy. I really appreciate how the Spirit, working mysteriously through the KZbin algorithm, led me to listen to this today! Thank you both for your friendship which is fruitful in more ways than you can know!

[@theYungOldBoi]

Beautiful comment

[@joshuatrott193]

I am really hopeful for Eastern Orthodoxes providing a path to meaning in the west. I'm being drawn towards it.

[@FirstnameLastname-py3bc]

That's not the meaning path for the west, that's the only path to meaning, to logos, to the Meaning, to Christ, God

[@TheMrSomecheesyname]

Since I converted and was baptised my live has been saved, I’m very grateful and pray that all others find the love of Christ too

[@dorothydeyev9240]

Something was very inspiring about that moment when Bishop Maximus told how, after his sojourn in readings and studies of the classic Greek thinkers and philosophers, he then returned "to reread the Orthodox Fathers, to see if there was something in them that (he) had missed." That level of humility and steadfast dedication, that wish to understand even more at that level of understanding really struck me. What a moment of true peace of mind and heart that understanding could be for one who is already on such a high level of intellectual and spiritual grasp of theology and philosophy. Awesome to even imagine that. Love this thought. It's quite beautiful. Just to think of even being able to reach such a high point of awareness of inner peace in this life, where truths coming from seemingly different angles actually do line up in a some similar ways after all. How blessed that realization must be! So inspiring to hear these talks, and on a very human level,which anyone can understand and resonate with. Thank you both so much. It seems that our world today sorely needs more discussions like these. Probably the times on Earth have always needed this, though, but we just imagine our times of trouble today are somehow more special than those times past. They thought so, too, in their times, most likely. Father, Bless us. ☦️🙏❤️☦️🙏❤️☦️🙏❤️

[@Luis-m225]

I’ve never clicked on a video faster than when I saw this video pop up!

[@missh1774]

I can only think of posting smiles and clapping hands ...

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

So great to see this discussion happening. Left Protestantism for Orthodoxy almost a year ago. Hasn’t been easy but best decision of my life

[@UnlistedLogos]

Nice. You’ll look back and wonder how you were ever a Protestant lol

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

This was a beautiful conversation. It was a bit difficult to understand but none the less very beautiful. It is so rewarding that people like me can listen to it over and over again to get the full meaning of it. thank you so much to the both of you!!

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Wow! When Bishop spoke about his reluctance or trepidation to follow the Neo Platonic path of mental ascesis (?) due to a healthy fear of falling into Pride and Vainglory, I was struck with a sudden feeling that Blessed Fr Seraphim Rose (a Saint now in one local diocese in the country Georgia) would love to hear this conversation! I pray and talk to him often… His profound guidance regarding the absolute necessity of “crucifying the intellect” has been very critical for my mental spiritual health. I loved that you, John, were so humble too, to admit you understand the need to guard against pride! I wish I could convey how these talks have literally been an answer to my prayers! 🙏🏻🥰☦️

[@annawray2220]

Thank you so much for this conversation, I was Christmated last week, after a life time of seeking I have finally found satisfaction in the Eastern Orthodox Church

[@jyoung5256]

John, this is excellent. Orthodoxy has such a rich history and tradition that balances the ‘having’ mode with the ‘being’ mode that you often reference.

[@mindovermatter3328]

Looking forward to this...the long drive home is now going to be an insighful, informative, uplifting and enlightening one! Can someone make sure J Peterson sees these vids as well please, to encourage proper enactment of spiritual wisdom and not just the incessant intellectualization of it? Participatory rules! (Not THE rules. IT rules)

[@justinthillens2853]

I think he really needs to find something to wholly submit himself to. I find myself increasingly put off by the aggression in his current trajectory

[@KalebPeters99]

Yep. He speaks of wisdom but rarely demonstrates it these days

[@timothydeneffe249]

Some needs to make JP sit down and watch

[@ClassPunkOnRumbleAndSubstack]

You probably don't get a dialogos culture on the scale of Twitter without much higher social-emotional intelligence in mainstream culture. Instead you get a polemic culture and the structure of the website is designed to mostly pull people into that, which can be detrimental because it can make time, attention, and energy revolve more around valuing negative emotions rather than evidence, reasoned arguments, probability, and positive emotions, and the valuing is at least partially a consequence or result of the attention.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I pray JP would read Fr (now Saint in the country Georgia 🇬🇪) Seraphim Rose and gain an understanding of what it is to crucify the intellect...

[@theYungOldBoi]

This convo series is my fave of all your work John. Really bringing things home

[@newdawnrising8110]

Can you all sense why this man was chosen to be made a Bishop? This man’s devotion to his search for Truth has been lifelong and not an easy path. I love how a man that has been trusted with a lot of authority in the Church can be so honest and open about his struggles and his search. I am so grateful to John for allowing Fr. Maximus to share his story and share about Orthodoxy. I discovered Orthodox Christianity way back in College. I have had no need to search for anything else ever since except to grow more and more in my Orthodox spiritual life. For me it is The Way provided by Christ through His apostles.

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

Please, please continue these conversations! They are beautiful and necessary....

[@JackTimothy]

Eis Polla Eti Despota!📿 thank you Bishop Maximus.

[@meisterjoshi4523]

John. I just want leave a comment expressing my gratitude for the time you took to share your teachings throughout the years. I am wishing you a lot peace and I am happy that you are so open to a new aspect and perspective of the Faith. I know God loves you very much and I certainly cherish you too!

[@shari6063]

Really enjoying these!

[@billylikesjelly]

I was going to say the same!

[@hilltribelinguist]

More please!

[@justinthillens2853]

I have to plug The Interior Castle by St Theresa of Avila into this space. It's a beautiful book that seeks to bring the imaginal into a space of communion with God through a gloriously fantastical invention of contemplative meditation. I consider it to be a fringe theory amongst the Catholics, one that barely made it through the inquisition, but as a nontheist that hardly bothers me. I have always loved the mystics and I have always found the lack of influential voices from the Christian feminine a bit disturbing, so St Theresa became quite the solace for me as I began to integrate my own past experiences with the church into my current understanding.

[@eyesee9715]

I wish the Bishop and John would discuss the central matter....who is God? who is Jesus Christ? who is the Holy Spirit? Everything else is secondary. Discussing Orthodox Christianity as a transformative path in dialogos with post-modern neo-platonism without engaging with the core dogmata of Orthodoxy (about God, Christ, the Holy Spirit) seems to me to "miss the mark." I wish they would address and unpack, for example, these three central Orthodox Christian scriptural teachings and explain how they relate to JV's neoplatonist project: (1) "But the natural (psychikos, psychological, emotional, carnal, worldly, merely human) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual (pneumatikos) judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one" (1 Cor 2:14-15) (2) "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor 1:18) (3) When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17) Is JV interested at all in discussing any of this? He obviously knows something of what the Bishop believes: that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, come into the world and history as Messiah, the culmination of the prophets, priests, and kings of Israel, that this divine-human Christ alone takes agape all the way to the end, through his ministry, teachings, miracles, suffering, dying, descent into hell, resurrection, ascension, and giving of the Holy Spirit, to redeem and restore God's good but broken creation and unite man with God. Sacrifical agape (not mere noetic contemplation, rituals, etc) is Christ's way. The saints and martyrs of the Orthodox Church, Jews and Greeks et al, have born witness to Christ, through co-suffering love in the world. What does JV make of all that? Is it irrelavent to him? In the Jewish Messiah the Greeks of old (neo-Platonists and the rest) saw the fulfillment of their longings. They dropped their pagan nets to follow him. Thus, the land of the Hellenes is replete with active Christian temples while the pagan ones are all arecheological sites. Orthodoxy has been open to integrating "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy" (Philippians 4:8) from Hellenism and Romanity and would likewise assimilate the good, true, and beautiful from any and every culture (Asian, Indian, African, Indigenous, etc). Fundamentally though, Orthodox Christianity is Jewish, a continuation of Israel, wedded to the Holy One of Israel, of whom it is written: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory" (Isaiah 6:3). Please address the central matter....who is God? who is Jesus Christ? which Spirit is holy?

[@hobbsmatt]

Loved this. Thank you both, again. I can’t wait to hear Bishop Maximus’ answer. Orthodoxy’s 2,000 year history - in 6/7 continents on earth - certainly has grappled with the practice of dialogue into dialogos in a variety of ways. I’m new to orthodoxy myself, but my mind is spinning with examples, so I’m really looking forward to hearing the answer from a modern day elder. Bless you both

[@quidestveritas]

Amen :) However I believe he is not properly called an elder. If someone knows better about his monastic status within GOC they can correct me

[@MrHwaynefair]

Dr. Vervaeke - I would love to hear Bishop Maximus unpackage more precisely what he means by "contemplation" and specifically with reference to how St. Maximus informs his understanding and practice... **Thanks for this series - very enlightening and encouraging!**

[@chrismichailidis8980]

So grateful for these discussions, John you are a gem of a human being, I’ve learned so much from you, thank you. I’m so glad Bishop Maximus has been given the opportunity to represent the depth of orthodoxy, his humbke approach is refreshing. As a cradle orthodox person, it helps us understand our faith and rituals better for a deeper more enriching spiritual participation. Thank you Bishop Maximus for helping us orthodox Christians deepen our practice, through your clear articulation of what orthodoxy entails. Hopefully, these talks don’t lead to intellectual pride and indulgence, and instead sparks a deeper participation.

[@mcnallyaar]

It's so FANTASTIC that they keep doing these and posting them so quickly! I'm on cloud nine.

[@ethanb2554]

Maximus, had a faith crisis, looked into neoplatonism and ultimately diverged from it after realizing that it inevitably ends in gnosticism and/or sorcery.

[@frank.sophia]

You should go read Plotinus "Against the Gnostics" because this is an ignorant conclusion... further, it is the Christians who believe bread and wine turn into flesh and blood... that a single sacrifice can save all of humanity forever... and miracles are your primary cause of belief... along with prayer as your primary practice... neoplatonists simply pursue the one/monad directly.

[@frank.sophia]

The ironic thing is this results in answering Jesus' prayer in John 17:20-26 You come to complete unity, coming to the same oneness Jesus knew thus sharing his glory The Christians reject this because truth violates the trinity Yet things like 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 suggest why this is a bad conclusion Dogma has made it impossible to inquire freely 2 Corinthians 3 closes by saying where the Spirit is there is freedom The church has taken it away because the Spirit isn't there

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

This is looking to be front and center.

[@Hoi4o]

Another beautiful dialogue. I could listen to John and the bishop for hours.

[@spearofsolomon]

I hope in the next episode, Maximos will continue to elaborate on the role of dialectic into dialogos in the Orthodox tradition. Lovely stuff!

[@davemc9ee]

This series certainly has my attention, thank you Bp Maximus and Prof Vervaeke!

[@dianagoddard566]

Just echoing thanks for the depth of conversation - a rare thing , a beautiful thing .

[@jambo52]

Bringing together The Imaginal, Symbolic Ritual and Faith is huge ! amazing . As someone who has been massively ontologically influenced by Corbin and Jung and now is on the path into Christian Orthodoxy this was very profound. Thank you.

[@dionysis_]

I am curious to know how Bishop Maximus judged progress or stagnation is spiritual matters. What are the indications of such progress or its absence?

[@SP-ny1fk]

“Intellect takes you to the door, but it doesn't take you into the house.” ― Shams-i Tabrizi

[@AccordingtoJohn]

Thanks for these discussions!

[@floridawoodlore4704]

Thank you, gentlemen, for this dialogue. Quite a few years ago the intriguing first chapter of C.S. Lewis' "Oxford History of English Literature in the Sixteenth Century: Excluding Drama" introduced me to Neoplatonism from somewhat of a Christian point-of-view, and I'm grateful for the manner in which you each approach the topic. So, once again, thank you!

[@vartanvartanian4412]

This is really good. Thank you. Maybe one or two more conversations leading to meaning of “Meaning”

[@Roteberht35]

On the point about exclusivity in ritual at the end there I think the book Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damascene would be an enlightening read on the Orthodox view

[@stuntman083]

The book isn't available anywhere

[@shari6063]

John, I have a question. It has occurred to me that when I write poetry, which I have done all my life, I often feel like I am in a conversation with Being itself. I have many times received insight into something after re reading a poem that I wrote, which is often unrelated to my original intention in writing the poem. You say that Dia-logos cannot be “done” and must be participated in, to which I agree. I suppose my question might be can just one person participate in it through poetry?

[@leedufour]

Thanks Bishop Maximus and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@donatoeufemia6029]

So great content!

[@Foulfootwear]

These are a real treat! Thanks, John.

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

Thank you for everything ♥️ this is a truly amazing series

[@_ARCATEC_]

"Faith is the evidence of things unseen" that's brilliant! 💓 For me the imaginal is Subjective and rational, a framing of that which we put our concrete objective faith in.

[@anavartalitis8425]

Please keep it up!

[@tallmikbcroft6937]

This talk is relatable to me. I like your Icon. Thank you for helping those you have never known. Bless שלום

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

The Socrates productions were made prior to this correct? John, would you consider starting some of the orthodox payers more specifically? Creating a small prayer corner and buying an orthodox prayer book were helpful for me. Spirit encounters increased greatly. Also, I went through a similar philosophical struggle as Bishop Maximus…although he was able to describe it better in philosophical terms than I ever could. For me I think it has been in some ways a messier affair for me living in the world. Stacy g

[@mattkleinsmith364]

Thank you for this. I'm looking forward to the next discussion.

[@BcClarity]

A Home Run, John!

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I need to know where to read in St Maximos about the practice of contemplation. I have had a few experiences during prolonged sitting in stillness, after I’ve said the Jesus Prayer for at least my formal prayer rule number, where I have “apprehended,” or “perceived” or suddenly “understood” an idea about something that felt higher than what my own personal cognitive abilities could grasp… it’s hard to put into words, but those new understandings felt like gifts from above and were scintillatingly delicate and beautiful…. It’s hard to describe, and once the experience was over, I just knew I’d been visited by God…or can I say visited by Supreme Wisdom These experiences have crushed my ego and usually end in grateful tears and feeling totally undeserving of anything! I don’t have a formal spiritual father right now or even ANYONE to speak with about these things… Is there a way to contact His Grace? Thank you!

[@brianbob7514]

Thank you

[@dalibofurnell]

Yes, renewal of the mind is vital. Thank you both. Thanks John for sharing. Congrats on the latest After Socrates episodes, I saw it as successful. It would be so cool to see the dynamic of a conversation like this, with you, the bishop and Jonathan P. My respect for you just grows. Praise the Lord for your gifts. Bless your hearts.

[@Bartisim0]

Superb. I'm looking forward to more conversation with you two in this space.

[@Beatsbeebur]

my favorite KZbin duo.

[@Anonymous-tm7rj]

As a protestant I will say that some folks are way more sanctified than others who have deep spiritual weeds to sift through especially if they have been through some dark places in life but the gospel is the only thing I have seen that has changed these people (David Wood for example).

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Is this part three? I want to make sure I watch all with Bishop Maximos in order

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Can’t wait for the next one…

[@aichrist]

What an epic video. Thank you for the commentary of change in tradition. Very insightful.

[@lorrainericardo8680]

This is very interesting ,, but I'm afraid it's way beyond me ,, and too deep for me to grasp ,, but it's ok for anyone that wants to go deeper into this spiritual journey ,,, May God bless all those on this journey with His Holy Spirit ,,, please keep me in your prayers ,,

[@KizaWittaker]

I am now getting into studying philosophy as a result of these conversations. I too feel like something is missing in my spiritual life.

[@huveja9799]

Wonderful talk! one million thanks! A question, where is it possible to read the relationship between Neoplatonism, idols and therapy? Thanks!

[@grailcountry]

7:20 The dark night is God’s attack on religion. If you genuinely desire union with the unspeakable love of God, then you must be prepared to have your “religious” world shattered. If you think devotional practices, theological insights, even charitable actions give you some sort of a purchase on God, you are still playing games. On the other hand, if you can face and accept and even rejoice in the experience of darkness, if you can accept that God is more than an idea that keeps your religion or philosophy or politics tidy - then you may find a way back to religion, philosophy, or politics, to an engagement with them that is more creative because you are more aware of the oddity, the uncontrollable quality of the truth at the heart of all things. This is what “detachment” means - not being “above the battle,” but being involved in such a way that you can honestly confront whatever comes to you without fear of the unknown. It is a kind of readiness for the unexpected, if that is not too much of a paradox. -Rowan Williams

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I’m interested in learning more about theurgy as I spent about 12 years in a Hindu guru worshiping group before meeting Christ… I used to see the person of the deceased guru coming out of the statue of him, or looking out at me from within his statue…I don’t know what that was? As an Orthodox Christian now I consider it to have been a fallen spirit… Before becoming baptized Orthodox I had three formal exorcisms that I’ve begun to appreciate more recently!

[@krisdabrowski5420]

One thing to keep in mind on the topic of the imaginal (though it seems that imaginal might not strictly mean imaginary here but I don't know the exact background here), is that even though there's a similarity between some Orthodox and traditional Roman Catholic Practise - Imagination is actively discouraged in Orthodox prayer, and is actively encouraged in Roman Catholic prayer. Part of this harkens back to the Essence/Energies distinction touched on in the first video with Bishop Maximus. Roman Catholics believe that experiencing God means experiencing effects in the created world made by God, and so cultivating imagination is doing your part in engaging representations of the created world in a less bodily way. The imaginative part of prayer is then cultivating the creation of images, sensations, and emotions that fit properly within their spiritual context. However, in the Orthodox spiritual tradition imagination is completely discouraged in prayer, for a very simple reason - the object of prayer is a direct, person-to-person experience of God, in God's uncreated energies. To cultivate imagination in this context, is therefore extremely dangerous - because you could convince yourself that you're having a spiritual experience of the uncreated God, but are in reality just mistaking your own imagination for God. Orthodoxy is, most fundamentally, participation in the tradition of the direct experience of and divinization by God, and even the most basic prayer is not an exception to that tradition.

[@mariog1490]

Not entirely true, and not everything hinges upon the essence/“energies” distinction. Maybe you’ll over emphasize these philosophical disagreements because you believe this proximal ontology is held by a paradigmatic epistemology (something called presumptionalism). A problematic view for a couple of reasons. One is transcendentals say nothing about truth (unless you invoke a circular argument). For example, let’s say if I want to be moral, I have to believe in God. That doesn’t mean, by transcendental logic, God exists in all possible world. I need a modal argument to necessitate the realness of transcendentals (Ex. To argue against logic is to use logic). If you have no clue what I’m talking about, just ignore. Basically, I don’t think this has to do with esse/energeia distinction. Many Catholics deny imagination, like St John of the Cross. Meanwhile, others affirm it. The large practice comes from a Jesuit named St Ignatius of Loyola. But his practice doesn’t originate from a philosophy or a polemic against any teaching. It came from experiences he had in his life. And even the “image” they use is not a pure representation (an idea I have trouble with because a representation requires intention). It’s more imaginal. For more clarity please read Corbin (and Mircea Elide). Or at least look up an article or something. Often the internet can make polemics seem easier than they actually are. “Kant is wrong”. “Here’s the cause of the inquisition”. Though interesting topics, if we aren’t careful, we can fall into nostalgia. We like to have these 10th century or 16th century polemical debates, but in the end they usually don’t achieve much wisdom. Rather than a philosophy of demolition, I propose to you a philosophy of re-construction. Rather than demolishing Descartes, is there a way we can reconcile him and Augustine? You brought up Gods essence as a polemic against ancient advisories. But a much more pressing one is that of Heidegger and Derrida, and there criticisms of ontotheology and the metaphysics of presence. As Gods essence is termed ousia (presence). To get bogged down by these little disagreements and to abstract them to tangential philosophy is, I think, the reduction of true philosophy. We can use many theoretical abstracts to manipulate, impose, and needlessly problematize things. And in the end we can call this process truth. But I prefer Kierkegaard’s idea of the truth that edifies is truth.

[@krisdabrowski5420]

@@mariog1490 I never said that Roman Catholic usage of imagination was explicitly caused and formulated as a reaction against Orthodox ontology. I simply said that Roman Catholic use of imagination was a natural consequence of a loss of belief of the direct experience of God. I appreciate that you've written a lot, but you've put words in my mouth, and accused me of having many kinds of motivations behind what I've said, but avoided actually addressing what I've written.

[@mariog1490]

@@krisdabrowski5420 im not sure what you mean by putting words in your mouth, other than the beginning. But I did say it was a speculation wether or not you were a presumptionalist. The rest was more like a proposal to you rather than a polemic. I didn’t address the argument (directly) because I proposed these arguments are not relevant. Forgive my short hand speech. This is my phone, and I’m writing sloppy. Maybe i wasn’t clear.

[@krisdabrowski5420]

@@mariog1490 I don't really know what you're proposing. Are you proposing that I swap to a different set of beliefs? If so, I'm not sure why I should stop believing what's consistent with my spiritual experience in Orthodoxy, or what could possibly be superior to the direct experience of God.

[@mariog1490]

@@krisdabrowski5420 i had 3 propositions: 1) perhaps imaginal is closer than imaging to the Jesuits. (Although you can throw this one off the side; just because you asked about the imaginal) 2) philosophy should be a re-construction rather than a demolition. 3) we cannot be nostalgic. Not to say we can’t be orthodox or Catholics or Jews, but we can’t go back to the 10th century. And again, I’m not implying that about you. I’m just saying, Descartes and Kant and Derrida happened. We can kick and scream about it. Start polemics; or revert to thief propositional content. Or, we can take what they’ve given us and we can grow ourselves. Re-construction.

[@ethanb2554]

So the difference between "faith" and "imaginary", is that faith is something one is willing to stake their life on (not provisional).

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

You are still abstracting, one step away from Entering into The Kingdom… Just ask Jesus to show Himself to you John! Meeting Him is the pinnacle…. Once you experience Him as a Person you will fall madly in love and No one and Nothing Else will satisfy you anymore… Great conversation You sounded nervous at the end John 🙏🏻🥰☦️

[@ElijahLogozar]

when in doubt, check if good ol' Vervaeke has posted another lecture, put on x2 speed, enjoy! 😁

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

This is really strange. A couple weeks ago I was asking my friends here in the corner and pondering the idea of using the 4 p’s to reverse engineer somebody else’s experience to get to know somebody. So something like the 4 p’s in opponent processing to deeply see others. It’s not a well thought out intuition but I’m wondering what you might think of this John. I’m looking forwards to listening to this tomorrow

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Another one!??? Wow!!!! Glory to God!

[@donatoeufemia6029]

These dialogues are fantastic! I am struggling my self because of my scientific background, and I think It would be wanderful to have the Bishop's perspective on Evolution for example. Thank you so much for such great content!

[@TheMonkeyking555]

The concept of humility is important but I get the impression that it may have been the egoic attachment to his “Christian” identity (identity as a monk and as “Orthodox” etc,) that ultimately led to him curtailing his exploration of greater wisdom.

[@j.p.marceau5146]

Happy to see you wrestling with this John! I'm surprised you didn't come across dialogs-like practices in protestantism. The circling practices I participated in very much reminded me of group Bible studies/lectio divina or even simply spontaneous group worship where you try to collectively presence the Spirit. I'm not protestant so I might be projecting things from the catholicism which I do know, but I'm still surprised.

[@j.p.marceau5146]

Perhaps what you're getting at, rather, is that those practices aren't central in Christianity. That's definitely true. The center is the liturgy, which is much more structured and less spontaneous than what you're probably after in dialogos. One could maybe argue that liturgy is a dialogos that is slowly unfolding through the centuries though, ultimately between God and creation.

[@johnvervaeke]

Tbank you my friend for these excellent points. I found such study groups oppressive and very scripted. No genuine questioning was possible. But I admit that was probably idiosyncratic to me.

[@j.p.marceau5146]

@@johnvervaeke Oh I'm sad to read that; I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining.

[@_ARCATEC_]

I'm thinking of the Kind of embedded practice that lays down a kind of body memory or the fire together wire together thing, balancing and harmonising with the extended exploratory-rapidly adaptive. And how these work together ah that's right like... sympathetic, parasympathetic. How interesting, it stands to reason the whole observable universe can be interpreted as cognitive.

[@mikelarrivee5115]

Jonathan pageau recently released a video where he highlighted the differences between traditional Christian art and the Renaissance art. An example of what he highlighted was that the traditional art took into account the fact that human interaction occurs face to face. However the conceptualization of human interaction occurring face to face is imaginal, Renaissance art looks "realistic" precisely because the imsginal of the face to face interactions covers the idiosyncrasies that are also part of human interaction such as seeing the backs of people in an interaction with them. However I am quite sure thar bishop maximus would not object to this use of the imaginal in orthodox iconography.

[@MrAljab]

Countdown to John V converting to Christian Orthodoxy...? All seriousness, thank you, gentlemen for these

[@timothydeneffe249]

Binging these like candy. Meaning making can be said to be a healthy addiction. (Hopefully)

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I pray that Jesus will reveal Himself to John face to face… so that all of John’s beautiful joy and childlike zeal for Truth can be directed to The One Who knitted him together in his mother’s womb…no higher Love 🙏🏻🥰☦️

[@jerehaw]

Seems like once the delineation becomes clearer between these two there should be some sort of showdown at some point :)

[@joshuatrott193]

8:42, I am there

[@damiantrollope211]

Can you, in future material, PLEASE go deeper into Nous being better translated as Consciousness ??!!

[@Orthodoxi]

Sounds like platonism in the positive was the transpiring of man in the image of God to the heights he can attain simply from that image alone with the goal of carefully not trespassing upon the image. Union with our own image as God made us. Theoria in the pure sense? Where Christianity takes off from there is through Jesus Christ the way to our reunion with the image maker, the Father of us all, as set through the incarnation. From here we may work in that grace from the virtues to attain levels towards Theosis or reunion with God.

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

"Tempted by neoplatonism because it appealed to my intelligence" Sounds like just 1 more reason for me to be grateful for my stupidity :)

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@wehsee912]

2012 🌚☄️❤️💫

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Guru means teacher! My Hindu guru was corrupt. After I left Hinduism for Christ I’ve tried to find a spiritual father. My first Orthodox one died after my getting baptized! I’m still looking!

[@jbell0243]

John, these things are all extremely present in Catholicism. It is the actual fundamental split between Luther and Trent. If you haven’t read the documents of Trent in Justification (along with your readings of say, Erasmus who goes as far as an orthodox Christian can with Luther I think) you really should. It makes use of some scholastic terminology but actually Trent avoids over aristotelianizing a lot of it, but Trent emphatically rejects the propositionalizing of faith exactly as the good Bishop here said. Memento mori is the Latin phrase “remember death” that every serous Catholic hears. I would also investigate the exercises of st ignatius of Loyola and such

[@justinthillens2853]

I think the problem still stands in that this level of participation has never made it into the mainstream. I would really like for John to read St Theresa of Avila's Interior Castle, I'll make a reply to the video in hopes that he'll see it, but I find that it's quite an explicit usage of the imaginal to come into an ultimately non dual space of being through contemplative meditation designed/discovered, to have the potential to not only conquer one's demons, but to integrate them into the One, into God. There's so much rich participation, but it's all reduced to fringe theology that barely made it past inquisitors

[@jbell0243]

@@justinthillens2853 I am not sure I would say the Church in general finds St. theresa of Avila is fringe. She is a major spiritual figure in the latin patrimony. But I also understand what you are saying.

[@TheChurchofBreadandCheese]

@@jbell0243 She 100% is not fringe at all. Probably one of the most popular spiritual authors read by many lay and clergy.

[@robertolson7076]

Gentlemen, please engage the scholarly work of Gaven Kerr. KZbin lecture: God, Creation, and the Act of Existence | Prof. Gaven Kerr

[@wehsee912]

N37⭕️

[@transfigured3673]

first

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

Howdy Sam

[@mutedplum465]

grats:)

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Jesus Christ is really real. He is The Person who the Father created all things in through and for… One does NEED to make an actual personal CHOICE to submit to Christ as the actual, real King of the Universe (and any and all universes)…

[@madzubmetler]

A commercial every 5 minutes? Not worth it.

[@leondbleondb]

Weak.

[@bayreuth79]

This is all very well but let’s discuss some practical problems. Right now the Patriarch of Moscow, Kirill, not only supports the invasion of Ukraine but was one of the ideologues behind the invasion. The Serbian Orthodox hierarchy also appear to support the war, not to mention the Belarusians and others. The Orthodox hierarchs have either been silent about the war or they have supported it, with some exceptions.

[@matthewwilkinson2170]

It’s an Orthdox country fighting an Orthodox country, just as Catholic countries, Muslim countries, Protestant countries etc etc. have done in the past. It’s horribly tragic, but not indicative of any sort of intrinsic doctrinal shortcoming of Orthodoxy itself.

[@bayreuth79]

@@matthewwilkinson2170 It’s much more problematic than that. Patriarch Kirill is one of the ideologues behind this invasion. He and Putin want to retrieve the Russian Holy Land, the Kievski Rus’, of which Ukraine is the most important part. Archimandrite Cyril Hovorun has written and spoken about this. This war has been presented by Patriarch Kirill as a holy war for the Kievski Rus’ and against the decedent west- but what’s more decedent than murdering people for land?

[@projectmalus]

Perhaps the objects in the struggles need adjusting, who should do this? Are the actions more significant than the objects? Are there good and bad in the objects or in everything? and is a right to ownership connected to size of objects? Do objects have different sizes, other than humans making it so?

[@eyesee9715]

The Ukraine Debate kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqDVpHxpp7Zjg9k

[@Ac-ip5hd]

On the one hand there is a false hope for worldly defense of Orthodoxy in the face of globalism and apostacy by the evils of Putin, and I believe Dugin to fall into the historic dialectics of trying to find a fourth way, rather than having faith (along with calling for alliance with anti Christian pagans and Nietzscheians). The geoplolitical control of energy and trade have to do with this as well. On the other is the fact the west and intellegentsia have backed the anti Russian coup that put Zelensky in power and the Constantinople backed schismatic church in Ukraine that can be seen as Renovationism 2.0, leveraging extra ecclesiastic authority from the secular world and academia, from thinkers such as you have advocated in David Bentley Hart who reject the patristic teachings for Origenism and intellectualism. Just as liberal and process theology, and liberation theology were pushed into the Vatican (now globalist with massive Jungian and radical Chardin sects, and this was also pushed for neoliberalism and anglosphere dominance), and into the protestant divinity schools. This has moved the world, especially west to degeneracy and radical ecumenicism. This type of church also became the Living Church targeted by the communists the same way the Jacobins targeted, corrupt and radical priests in Catholicism for alliance and blackmail, to change the society, before installing their schismatics the same way Stalin did with Sergianism. While it is wrong that Kiril supports Putin and the war, there are two sides to this, and one sides with natural theism, leftism, and globalism that wants to eradicate dogmas and "do Christianity better", takes state money, is naive to compromise with worldly ways, closes churches for a manufactured virus and suffers from cowardice and heresy. The liberal world order and funding of these schismatic churches, revolutions, just as neoconservatism and fascism were funded by the same kind of people have to do with this situation, and the attempt to police the world along with the west bankrupting itself in interventionism while carrying water for banks and a new world order, which is enmeshed with China as well. Some of these actors reject the soul and are pushing for a luciferian and gnostic one world religion, rejection of orthodoxy, as well as out right transcendence of the human condition for gnostic transhumanism, population control, post modern language control, scientism, and social engineering that looks much like social Darwinism. I don't want to live under a Putin, nor do I support him and Russian aggression. But I would rather live under him than Bill Gates, Yuvol Noah Harrari and Bill Gates in The Religion of The Future: meaning the religion of Antichrist. I think many in these Eastern European countries feel the same. They don't want the same women who stick crucifixes in their anuses in front of Notre Dame and strip before protesting inside of it, the pushing and normalizing of pornography, gender butchery and hormone therapy for children, requirments to teach post modernism, gender studies and cultural marxism and feminism in the universities. That doesn't justify the war, but make no mistake: it's a part of it and those who innovate and try to change the religion are at least leveraged by those interests if not outright on the side of the intelligentsia.

[@Danielfaust0]

I'm sorry but I found this gentleman boring and with not well-structured in his discourse. I won't be listening to another 35 minutes. I have a feeling that John would disagree with me, but I don't think this is nowhere near John's usual standards.

[@peepoclown1]

So, we should dismiss the experience and understanding of those who don’t meet your criteria for “engaging” and “well-structured in discourse”?

[@Danielfaust0]

@@peepoclown1 Of course not my friend. I would advise that you use your own judgment and your own criteria to identify what is worthy of your time. I found that this video wasn't very interesting and that I was not learning much, so I decided I would make better use of my time elsewhere. And I simply communicated this opinion with the rest of you. P.S: I absolutely adore John's content, just not with this particular companion

[@peepoclown1]

@@Danielfaust0 I see. I’m speaking as an individual who isn’t particularly interested in John’s content, but is rather very fond of his guest.

[@Danielfaust0]

@@peepoclown1 Fully understnad. I didn't mean to be disrespectful, please forgive me if I was. John does a lot of this kind of interaction with religious figures so you might find other content enjoyable. Give it a go!