Review | S2000 vs FRS (GT86 BRZ) Track | Part 2 of 2

[@TheChroniclesOfFab]

just cause they make the same peak numbers doesn't mean that they make the same power throughout the rev range. I'd say the mid range torque from the supercharger is what produced that difference.

[@boblast5582]

212 supercharged hp is more than 212 NA hp. you get a lot more area under the curve and mid range torque with a supercharger that you didn't in the NA s2k... very useful on the track

[@TheBb6prelude]

agree,swap final drive in the s2000 and it would be close if not equal to the more powerful and torqier SC frs. For starters the torque difference in the SC frs makes a big difference. This should have been at least equal HP both being NA. Can't forget the frs had racing pads and more mods done as well. Not knocking the frs because it is a great car just not my style but this isn't a clear comparison.

[@mattyturbo1]

I just rewatched this and I forgot how good this video was.

[@Affalterbach1967]

Great to re-watch this after the fancy s2k-86-mx5 bench race video of 2020. These old ideas were intense!

[@Haru-Kei]

I have been waiting for this review for awhile and It was worth the wait, Great review and thank you for sharing.

[@Kakeyoro]

Haven't really gone over all of the comments but I was wondering if someone brought up the fact that the FRS was using Enkei RPF1 wheels. I believe they're something like 13lbs at 17x9 as opposed to the factory s2000 wheel being upwards to 20lbs. That much unsprung weight can really make a difference, let alone the forced induction. Although cooling my not be an issue, a BBK would allow much deeper braking points than an s2000's stock brake setup. I also noticed that the FRS on the track looked a bit more twitchy. There were more corrections made in the FRS, it seemed, than the s2000. Both great cars, nonetheless but I think the attempt to equalize was overshot by a little. The FRS seems more approachable whereas the s2000 is more polarized. With the Honda only pleasing a niche crowd, I feel the FRS will sell more either out of sheer numbers in manufacturing or it's approachability.

[@blueshark3098]

Thanks for this video, Savagegeese. I really liked the driving segments, plus all the silly stuff between you and Scott. Lots of fun, all around.

[@RobRoyRed42]

Good review, guys. I have to say that though I love my FR-S (going on 55k miles now), I understand that it is a modern car. That is, disposable. But then, at 160 miles a day, I figure I'll use mine up pretty quickly. But oh what a time it is in the meantime. The only point of contention I have with the video is your comment about the interior. I loved it when I bought it and I still love it. It's very basic and I like it. I even have to manually turn off the headlights. The one modern feature that I use ALL the time is the stock stereo features of bluetooth (for my phone) and usb port for music on thumb drives. I honestly can't think of anything that I would want changed on this car other than a more convenient cup holder. But I can live with that. I love driving that car every single day. But considering the roads I drive on are made for it (central Kentucky backroads - smooth, twisty and no traffic). If I still lived in Seattle I would not be the least bit interested in that car.

[@scarea2691]

Do you still own the car by chance?

[@Bubs0271]

FANTASTIC sound work bro. Really. Top notch.

[@georgecastanza834]

Totally unfair comparison, stock s2000 vs supercharged BBK FRS... Everyone knows the S2000 is overall better than Miata's/BRZ/FRS/Genesis

[@nexushexus4365]

And he agreed with you, watch the video to the end.

[@maxs908]

It's unfair because the S2000 may have been more powerful from the factory, but also way more expensive to buy. Even with the addition of the supercharger, the Toyota was less expensive......so dont be to quick to judge

[@stinkbra]

Torque. Just for those that dont know, power is a result of the combination between torque and revs. Since the 86 is making the same HP with lower peak revs, its pretty safe to say that while the HP is the same, the 86 has been modified with a torque advantage. That could be part, but probably not ALL, of the difference. That being said, thank Jebus a comparison was finally done between 2 cars with the same tires. THANKYOU SAVAGEGEESE, awesome decision

[@Smokin07ram]

I was going to say that very thing. The S2000 has a straight as an arrow power curve from zero to 9000rpm. The turbo frs has power curve that probably looks like a beautiful rainbow....way more torque! The one thing that the video maker never mentioned was that the S2000 comes from the factory ready to accept 700 horsepower....All it needs to do that is a fuel system to support the power, a clutch, and a bit of rear end work. Even with the turbo the S2000 has a pretty straight power curve! Though the top end power is insane! 18PSI boost makes about 500hp on pump gas fwiw

[@Smokin07ram]

192lalo You have to run a 4 port boost controller (I have a 5 pound spring) and a fairly sophisticated ecm to and let power roll on slowly.... or you will be all over the track :)

[@en-k-es984]

Thanks for the videos. The S2000 is definitely a better car but we must also consider that it is a much more expensive car when you adjust for inflation. An S2000 today, if it were brand new, would cost about $40k. I love my BRZ. I have been driving for 30 years and have been in a lot of cars. The BRZ is the best handling car I have personally owned. I also understand and embrace its weaknesses. The lack of power adds to the enjoyment because it means guys like me can drive it near the limit almost everyday without crashing or getting a ticket. Your advice about buying something else if you want a real race car is very sound. It seems wise for most people owning a GT86 platform car to keep engine upgrades conservative. For me that means a few bolt ins, OFT tune, better sounding exhaust, mild weight reduction, and better tires.

[@savagegeese]

+EN-K-ES Great feedback, I hear what you are saying. The concept of having a fun street car in the BRZ/86 much like a Miata means having less power better handling etc. We just always found the chassis to have so much more overhead than what the power output supplied, that was why we modified the car to see if it was worth it. So many people say S2000 would cost more today. And I argue this is untrue as the cost to manufacture the S2000 frame, features, interior suspension and limited use of aluminum as it was in 2000 would be much less today. The manufacturing process has improved where a car like this would be easier and cheaper to make today than it was when the S2000 launched. In fact it's much more simple of a frame and chassis design than the 86 when you look at it and less of it. They both use Aisin made trans, similar use of aluminum and the S2000 has far less electronic and safety costs as well. So remaking the car today as it was would be easily the same or less.

[@en-k-es984]

You have obviously done some extensive research here so I respect your opinions.

[@marshallrhayes]

+savagegeese All things being equal, they could build the same S2K for cheaper today if you only consider manufacturing prices and don't consider emissions, safety features, etc. But this is really comparing apples to oranges. If the S2K was rebuilt today it would cost way more than 35K. Otherwise, it wouldn't really be an S2K. The S2K was ahead of its time when it was first built. This isn't really the case with the FRS. To me, both cars are not in the same category if you consider MSRP price. I see 18 year old kids today with an FRS. Not many 18 year old kids were driving $35,000 S2000s back in 2002. They didn't have the money. Because today, paying 35-40K for a car that only makes 240 hp and weights 2800 lbs is not really impressive. So if the S2K were rebuilt, IMO it would have to weigh like 2400 lbs and have at least 300 horsepower and still meet all of today's safety and emission requirements. This could not be done for under 40K. Point is, if they somehow made the exact same 2006 S2K today, and sold it for 35K, it wouldn't really sell well. Not when you can buy a 320 hp 370z for 5K less.

[@jet_trooper]

marshallrhayes marshall you are so right, is utopic to think that nowadays the s2k will be cheaper than 40k usd

[@ashleylewis3001]

Thank you so much for these entertaining videos. I even suffer through the KZbin adds just to keep these episodes coming!

[@revmatchtv]

Seriously impressive video and channel! I can't believe how much work you put into these! Fantastic job man.

[@panamera53]

On another note, the S2K already comes with a track ready suspension, while you would have to heavily modify the BRZ.

[@Angel-HC]

Yeah, that's why everyone who tracks an S2k is on stock suspension.

[@opmike343]

"Track ready" is a meaningless term. There's lots of people doing track days on stock suspension and lots of people upgrading it. No one doing serious tracking/racing in their S2000 is keeping the stock shit on there.

[@B__L]

@@opmike343 S2k suspension has full alignment capability but the FRS has none. You can slap on a set of good coilovers/dampers/springs on an s2000 and be ready to set competitive lap times. The FRS needs adjustable top mounts, rear lower control arms and toe arms even before you do anything else otherwise the alignment is total shit.

[@philspaghet]

@@opmike343 agreed. The stock stuff is great for a year or two but soon you'll want good coilovers and a corner balance

[@trentmclellan1037]

Dude FRS handles very well and has better suspension stock

[@vincentr8775]

That is why I am holding on to my 2006 S2000 now. very hard to find anything close to this car even now... Only car I am thinking about to change is Seduction motorsports Porsche 550 Spyder Replica with 230hp subaru engine...

[@Cervan]

Id like to point something out as well about the s2k, it makes peak tq at 6800rpm and peak hp at 7800. Im in no way talking shit but perhaps it would have benefited them to downshift one gear lower to keep it above 6800 rpm's where the engine really starts producing maximum power. I couldnt really see the tach through most of the video im just judging by sound. I may be completely wrong, but i just thought id add that in.

[@Dowlphin]

7:44 Is the wildly vibrating shift lever an S2000 thing or due to something track-related? And the Scion's squeaky brakes, was that purely due to track pads? (If so, I have some hope for my own racing brakes. ... Although they do have high performance street pads. Might be the lack of anti-noise shims.) 13:57 A bit too much body roll for my taste. 14:11 Ou, TT akes! 14:22 That should have been an intake! 14:50 Don't ever neutralize horse power!!

[@scottieray]

I have really enjoyed all of your videos. I bought my FR-S on New Year's day of 2013 and have 42,000miles on her so far. She is stil stock except for a set of Bridgestone RE760's which allowed her to brake AND steer at the same time. The guys who mounted my tires commented on how stiff the Bridgestones were compared to the Michelins. I live in central Arkansas and this car, stock, is just about right for the very tight curvy roads I get to drive on. There is a little more bump-steer than I would like during spirited driving on the rougher roads, but for a daily driver sports car, the handling is truly great. In fact, since my FR-S is my daily driver I often think "Oh, the handling is getting slack and soft" and then I have a chance to drive someone elses car and damn near drive off into a ditch. Ive driven this car from Little Rock to Pikes Peak and back and it was a blast. Averaged 34+mpg on the interstate stretches at 75mph. No it is no S2000, but it isn't far off. Honda couldn't bring out a modern S2000 for less than 40-grand if it was built to the same quality as the original. But they are a blast and there are several pristine S2000's running around Little Rock.

[@savagegeese]

One thing that is great about FRS as you said is MPG. No way S2000 can match it. Much better daily driver. The 760s are a great street tire really good choice.

[@kimchimonkey]

+1 for that dry sense of humor lol Just curious how much does having the top down in the s2000 affect speed on the track? I notice some people have the top down and some up so I'm assuming not much?

[@savagegeese]

It has an effect but not enough here to make a big difference.

[@1365-v5h]

Do not forget that you are comparing a convertible to a coupe. Therefore, the GT86 has a major advantage chassis speaking. But I still think that the S2000 is a better car

[@fragboxboy]

Haha... Your theory is usually correct about 95% of the time, but when you're talking about the S2000 you are dead wrong bud! The S2000 has one of the strongest chassis's ever made, including convertibles, hatchbacks and EVEN coupes! Just look into S2000 "X-Frame Chassis." I'm sure there's many videos on KZbin on it alone.

[@1365-v5h]

+fragboxboy You didn't understand what I was saying. My comment is in favor of the S2000, and don't worry, I know this chassis. What I was saying is that the GT86 can be better potentially since its a coupe, but the S2000, despite being a convertible, has a better chassis. So my comment is all the way for the S2000.

[@TheBb6prelude]

don't for one has a aftermarket SC on it and the other doesn't,drop a comp charger on the S and it's games over.

[@ge8basefan19]

Thank you for making this review! There aren't a lot of reviews on s2000. I find the comparisons you made very interesting.

[@zacharyparis]

been going to the track and depositing but gravy in my AP1 for years now and can't get enough!

[@1QuickSlovak]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the aero advantage the FRS has over the open top S2000. A NA/NB Miata with hardtop vs open top has a significant difference even with the gutless cast iron lump. Add 100hp to the Miata and the difference in lap times would be a couple seconds, as speeds increase. Hard top S2000 vs that FRS would be an interesting fight.

[@savagegeese]

we brought that up in part one. but great observation.

[@Tryptamine999]

+1QuickSlovak I've been told, not sure how reliable the info is, but apparently Honda designed to the car to be basically always driven with the top down, so the Aero isn't that bad when the roof is down, or maybe even better, though it doesn't sound like the most concrete info, but I doubt the aero is drastically changed when the top is down.

[@Smokin07ram]

Its better with a hard top. Better with a bit of aero work as well

[@JungSooLeee]

After debating about which car to go with (and many test drives), I ultimately went with a used C6 Z06 Corvette. It's a good balance of handling and power. I'm always finding excuses to take it out and drive it in the twisty roads and mountains. Sometimes I wake up at night just to fire it up and drive it for a few.

[@KXP70]

C6 Z06 is an awesome car man 👍

[@goldmegaman1000]

Good shit hope you love it bro 🤘

[@alexchannell]

Fun review. Sorry you have to deal with all the idiots calling it an unfair comparison and the like. You guys stated the reason. It was entertaining to watch and informative so I think you guys did well!

[@SilverforceX]

You have a super charger on the FRS, giving it high torque and power across the rev range. On the S2000, below 6000 RPM it's like a 150 hp 4 cyl engine, it needs to be above 6K rpm to output power giving it a disadvantage around corners as the FRS can pull out to speed quicker. Stock v stock, the S2K would thrash the FRS, and once both are modded, it would be the same outcome.

[@JTSX1]

They forgot to mention the 30 ft-lb torque advantage of the FRS; that makes a huge difference in acceleration out of turns and on the straights.

[@savagegeese]

The tq is an issue certainly.

[@mtzmueller]

Great video, thank you for doing this, it will definitely help me with my next purchase!

[@ficklecycler]

Just saw this and I've got to say it's your best video I've seen!

[@savagegeese]

Its really a tribute to both. Some see it as a hater video, not sure why. thanks

[@crxvtec0069]

So how interesting would this be to take a STOCK FRS/BRZ and pit it against an S2000 with Vortech supercharger, full race suspension, brakes, Race wheels RPF1s, and a hardtop. I wonder what the split time would be then? prob 30 seconds......maybe 45 seconds. It would be complete utter annihilation. An S2000 with forced induction would just be decimating. This isnt a fair comparison, because you are changing the whole characteristic of the FRS. upgraded all components of the entire car, this is why the FRS is not a true sports car like an s2000 or Type R. You would have to spend 4-5 times the amount of money, time and effort to make it perform at the same high level of performance as the S2000.

[@savagegeese]

Agreed, and thats why the S2000 was still the better car at the end.

[@GR1MR34PER33]

Frs for around $22,000 if you have limited knowledge on how to buy a new car. You were looking at $32,000 for the S2k. Just in case you are bad at math that's $10,000 you can play with to make the frs perform better than the s2k as seen in this video. Everyone loves to ride the s2k bandwagon, and they all love to beat on other cars that are it's direct competitors but may I remind you which one has been discontinued?

[@TheChocolateChamp]

They had the same hp, tires and pads lol how much closer of a damn comparison do you need???? Your comment makes 0 sense

[@TheChocolateChamp]

@@dpackman0 lol of course i do. These cry babies just want to complain about everything. As far as a comparison goes this is a super close one. They did a similar one with a civic i think, same motor but civic had more tq but was fwd and the civic beat the s2000 on the track.

[@fatboy19831]

The S2k is a better built better performing car.....yes. It is also twice the price of the FRS. It cost more than the FRS 10 years ago. $10,000 more to start. If you adjust for inflation that would make it over 45k today. Kia could make a better car than the FRS for 45k. Yes a 2005 S2k and a 2013 FRS cost the same money. A 2013 FRS has what? A warranty. It is a far safer car. Gets 6 to 10 mpg better in the real world. You don't have to be minion sized to drive it. The biggest problems that the twins have is the obvious cost cutting measures (including poor rust protection). If my car had 30 more Hp and cost $5000 more I would not own one. It was the right car at the right price for me. My only light weight RWD inexpensive option. My only one. I am6.5 feet tall 205 pounds.

[@fatboy19831]

***** My BRZ was 26k in 2012. You can buy a 2016 for 25k.

[@TheBb6prelude]

s2000s can be had for as low as 6-7 today.

[@fatboy19831]

f2b.....f20bEG Not an unmolested one. The stock S2ks cost much more than the modded ones.

[@TheBb6prelude]

I've seen them that low but most are 8-9K for a ap1.

[@fatboy19831]

f2b.....f20bEG If you can find a stock S2k AP1 well maintained under 100,000 miles. 9k. Buy it.

[@thaik56]

So about the headaches you mentioned on the tuned supercharged FR-S, what are they exactly? Is it cooling issues? I understand the engine is overheating? Isn't there any way to further increase the cooling performance like a bigger radiator, or oil cooler? Is that it or there are other issues aside from the cooling?

[@softbreeze941]

I find this review very helpful and I would like to thank you guys, because I am considering to supercharge my GT86 but haven't really made up my mind if it is worth it or not. Turbocharging is also in mind but that's not important right now. Thx again!

[@joeyvang7575]

great comparison, I had fun watching. thanks.

[@nathanwitt3889]

You need a square setup on the S2000. 255's front and rear. I messed around with staggered for a while. Huge waste. Put a square setup on the S2000 and try again. Other than that, great review.

[@charleshu5752]

I am a S2000 owner and I have to say the FRS chassis is a lot stiffer. For a convertible,S2000 is super good but you can't beat a rigid hardtop

[@dx8989]

what happened at 10:28 ? did she take a dump in the bed? O_o

[@CreepinCreeper145]

That's a friggin weird kink

[@georgerosebush9754]

He did.

[@BuzzKillingtonne]

I seriously wasn't expecting the Shining Force music, but I love it.

[@z06camaro]

Both cars are awesome, I own an s2000, driven a brz. I see the merit of the brz in the touge, especially modded. But I won't be trading my ap1 for one.

[@krazS13]

No FRS/BRZ/GT86 will ever dominate an s2000. Get your biggest baddest one and set it up with an AMUSE, J's Racing, or Top Fuel/ Voltex and it will get shit on plan and simple and not by a Mir 3 seconds... More like days lol

[@juffurey]

awesome comparison, I learned a great deal. also, great production value. tbh I'd like miatas more if they had more aggressive styling, but I've never liked the stock look of any generation. and, only in the past few years did I find out how great they can perform.

[@savagegeese]

There is a reason why the miata is one of the most raced cars. Has high overhead. but as a street car, most agree it lacks the flare and power. Thanks for kind words.

[@savagegeese]

***** Did you even watch the videos or are you just being a fruitcake? We liked the S2000 better even with the FRS boosted.

[@savagegeese]

***** We already did that test, the 86 gets destroyed by every car aside from Miatas on the track.

[@Fearnight]

savagegeese Except the FRS was thoroughly praised for being so much faster and the S2000 as "slow". If this boosted version were the TRD/STi edition, you would have been all over its nuts. Until then, the 86 will continue to try its best to beat a 10+ year old Honda.

[@marcelopalacios3424]

Would you agree that the S2000 is tail spin happy? I’ve never driven one, but every track day I’ve been to, it’s common to see these cars spin out of the track. Would you not rather drive a more balanced car? More horse power is not always better IMHO.

[@savagegeese]

+Marcelo Palacios the bigger issue with the S2000 is you have to stay ahead of it it requires more driver skill to operate. That's what makes it a lot more fun. I guess it depends on who you are if you find oversteer questionable you're probably not going to like this car

[@deleted-00-01]

THE S2000 WINS! :) There was no doubt in my mine!

[@deleted-00-01]

Mind* 😊

[@g5magic]

Best 4 cylinder sport car in the world!! (Performance vs Price vs Reliable) Honda 2000!!!

[@itheus]

Did i hear 18k dollars for a s2000? When was this video

[@HakeemKazak]

Decent review, though I dislike how "Turbowski" never seems to comment on driving dynamics, always just about power, sounds so barbaric... if that was the case why don't we all just buy a used Civic Si, turbo that K20 and ta dah, cheap straightline power that beats most things on the road...also, about the price difference, how much was the S2000's MSRP when it was new? I'm pretty sure it started around $32,000, and that was during the previous decade, so there is at least a $7,000 difference with the FR-S/BRZ's base MSRP. With that being said, the S2000 should of course retain a better resale value especially since there are not that many out there to inflate prices. I mean hell, the S2000 only managed just over 100,000 in worldwide sales over a 12 year period while the FR-S/GT86/BRZ I heard has already surpassed 100,000. And about reliability, meh, have you owned an AP1? You are comparing the FR-S/BRZ to an AP2, a second gen model, which was properly updated and refined, the AP1 definitely had its own share of issues. The FR-S/BRZ has had typical new platform growing pains, but nothing is really serious or major, all the issues I've come across have been pretty manageable while modding the car. Finally, driving experience wise, yes a roadster will naturally feel more visceral as you only have 2 seats, you get more noise coming through and the driving dynamics are a little different, so in that sense I think it is a little unfair to compare that sort of experience to what the FR-S/BRZ provides. The main part is, like you said, the FR-S/BRZ has better balance because in reality no roadster will ever truly compare against a coupe with a solid roof. Those aspects would be better compared to cars like the Genesis Coupe, 370z, RX8, etc. Either way, enjoy your vids keep it up, hope your FR-S gives you as much joy as it does for me :)

[@savagegeese]

Thanks for the great comment. We really enjoy the FRS no way around it, really good car. Turbowski really thinks the FRS is super balanced and is very forgiving. You can just push so hard and never feel like the car is getting away from you. When you drive them back to back you realize how good both cars are, but also realize just how good the S2000 was stock. Price and age aside, the designers had such similar visions about what they wanted to do in some ways Honda did it better as an uncompromised sports car, while Toyota made theirs more accessible and cheaper while still making a better chassis than the Honda. But at the end, of the day it's splitting hairs.

[@Cardfold11]

we own a 2000 s2k with 285,000 miles on it. besides a clutch master cylinder and an entire respray, there have not been any major issues or things needing replacement (except fluids, clutches, timing chains, tires). it's been a daily driver in the winter (a pretty bad one though, haha) for the last decade, at least. there are small rust bubbles under the paint on the rear fenders but that's it. we love it and vtec still pulls strong!

[@abymondesir23]

Hakeem Al-Kazak hakeem you couldnt say it any better!!!

[@asnoir84]

Hello ! After all the reviews. Could you say that the stock FR-S is a good car for beginner? I want a car to drive RWD and keep NA. There is no S16, no RX9, no ... It would be a pleasure car to drive the weekend. And sometimes daily. In RWD new car what is the best choice? Have you tried the new 2015 FR-S with more accurate damper? Could you make a review from 2014 vs 2015 FR-S. Thanks for all your videos!

[@HodgeVA]

great review! being a former s2k owner, I loved the way it handled, esp when I installed a front swaybar. Really neutralized the handling on corners.

[@savagegeese]

***** I agree, small subtle things improved the car.

[@kingJim4]

May I ask, why did you only install a front sway bar and not a rear sway bar? Also, what brand sway did you use and what was the size of the front sway bar?

[@HodgeVA]

kingJim4 I wanted a more neutral feeling car. On a rwd car, you want to increase the size of the front swaybar to reduce oversteer. On a fwd car, you want to increase the size of the rear swaybar to reduce understeer. I had a Cusco front swaybar (32mm IIRC)

[@AndroidJdm]

For the money i say S2000 all the way. A new Frs is gonna cost you roughly about $30k out the door. I really like the car but i'd wait a few years till they drop in price. If im going to spend 30k i rather find a solid s2000 and spend the money on improving it and fixing it to my taste.

[@ShowMeWhatINeedToKnow]

So, rather than try to make an FRS a track car, just buy a used Cayman?

[@samsonweiser7504]

+Show Me What I Need To Know You can get a 911 for the price (insurance and repairs ignored) and still have money to fix the IMS bearing issue on all of the years in that price range. The Cayman has a better chassis though. A Boxster S would be faster, cheaper to buy and more fun then the 86 too.

[@marshallrhayes]

+Show Me What I Need To Know Porsche is not cheap to maintain. Even for a daily driver and especially not for a track car.

[@MotorDetroit]

@6:24 Environmental regulations have required less robust, more eco friendly metal platings & paints which probably explains why the newer car sees more rust.

[@TubeAmpExtremist]

Adding a point here, S2000 has forged engine internals from STOCK. If a supercharger is added, it can easily and safely put 350-400+ WHP depending on the pulley used. Only a tougher clutch is needed. Make an comparison using this setup vs FRS supercharged would be more exciting and fair. Overall very good job savagegeese! I enjoyed these two videos!!

[@CoreQ]

finally somebody is telling the truth. stock frs is crappy and modified frs is not worth.

[@captainkeys1]

well..

[@guyfihi]

They didn't say the FR-S was crappy. They said they were both good cars, but that they prefer the S-2000, which where I live was a $40,000 car when new.

[@imVexedBruh]

the frs/brz arent crappy at all, youd know this if you payed attention.

[@PaPWPW]

hudson fox It's a piece of shit, I don't even like hondas but I'd take the s2000 before that toyota any. fucking. time.

[@imVexedBruh]

PilgrimTitan except Its not, this review shows how well it and the brz handle. Its an affordable flat 4 naturally aspirated car that handles alot better than the cars in its price range today. Also honda makes fine affordable cars as well.

[@ToeCreature]

Thank for the video, it is my second times to watch, still fun. S2k is my favorite car, but it is expensive if you want one in good condition !!!!!!! So this videos just clear my mind, get a GT86/BRZ and supercharge it! Last but not least, buy a S2k if money is not your main issue, because it holds its value way better.

[@panamera53]

I would take the S2K stock for stock and of both were aftermarket. We all know if both had the same horsepower, the S2K will annihilate the FRS/BRZ.

[@BobC59]

Yep, but don't forget you can have 2 or 3 Miatas for the price of one S2000 (I've owned both, an NB Miata with 65k and now, as of two days ago, an AP1 S2K w/14k... yes, 14k)

[@Angel-HC]

The both have the same horsepower in this video. Try that again. And with a little less fanboying this time.

[@KXP70]

@@Angel-HC got to consider that the supercharged FRS shoulp have a lot more midrange power in this config

[@TheBb6prelude]

Angel Christov frs has bigger front tires and has way more hp and torque through the powerband. Super charge the s2000 and it’ll be 400 hp no problem.

[@iSkateBoard10]

rumors says a new s2k will be coming in 2018, let's wait and see the price they drop on that vs the 2017 86. im trading my elantra limited for an 86 next week. nowadays you can easily get 210hp to the wheels with uel, full exhaust, good tires, a good tune and e85. thats what im aiming for, thats all i want, until some years down the road ill go with FI.

[@MrDroid0518]

Love this stuff MIATA SERIES NEXT!

[@rtaylor0361]

This is such a fail . Max hp is just a output that occurs at one specific rpm . What the boost does over the entire rev range must be considered and that makes this comparison a total fail do to the difference in throttle response etc .One other thing that is often over looked is the stock S2000 is covered by auto insurance . If Mr Goose was to get in an accident in his modified car, the insurance company can refuse to pay claiming fraud unless he has some special modified car insurance . That’s why insurance company’s always ask for your vin # . If he does and told you how much it cost , you defiantly would say if you want a fast car , but a stock fast car !!!

[@BoostedAP1]

I've seen a lot of engines f22 and f20 alike go for 2k-3k but 6k are people marking up the price(which I haven't seen either). I haven't seen any for around 1k as mentioned in a previous comment though.

[@matusknives]

So we have 2020. The BRZ is available new, though little has changed. The S2000 is too old to buy for a daily driver (and prices seem actually going up). I am wondering what would be the alternative with comparable spirit today (so no hot hatch FWD).

[@fhowland]

How is it too old for a dd? It’s a Honda. I daily mine. My other car is an 08 civic. Neither is too old.

[@neverhobbyfree]

Despite horsepower outputs being similar, the supercharged FRS has a significant 31 Ibs of torque more than the stock AP2 motor. In addition, having Ohlins suspension vs. the s2k's stock suspension set up is also a significant advantage for the FRS. I believe the difference in lap times of the two cars in your test is mainly because of this difference and the test does not accurately portray which chassis is better. That being said, it was surley entertaining enough for me to watch both parts multiple times.

[@gaboaaa23]

So the gt86 is from 2011 and the s2000 looks still fresh and new(in my opinion also better looking) beneeth the gt86. But its no surprise.....te old nsx which is 30 years almost, still looks modern with nice 18 inch wheels and a little lowering. Shigera Uehera got the twist in terms of design back then.

[@TheKiman2]

Shining Force. Love all the OSTs you're using!!!

[@G3t0wt]

Torque is why the frs is faster I think its safe to assume the tq numbers with the supercharger are right in line with hp if not slightly higher, giving it much more usable power, making it faster. Also curious to know what suspension it is running. Still an interesting comparison.

[@Hoeboe2k]

I think there was a difference in the making of those cars. The s2000 was supposed to be a celebration of their racing heritage, something that would be a iconic car for Honda. Ultimately, Honda knew that these would not sell like hot cakes but didn't seem to care which is why they only had one configuration and refused to offer an automatic. In comparison, the twins are kind of a celebration of toyotas past, but I feel like they were engineered to be a profitable line for them. So the toybaru offers an auto and options to appeal to a wider audience. The s2000 had one config and one small niche audience. I think your review and comparison only confirms this. Keep up your awesome stuff. Whatever you guys do, you make it entertaining.

[@christianherrero8053]

so is the 86 trash as a track car? was gonna buy it when it goes down to around 10k used

[@savagegeese]

+Christian Herrero Its a good track car to a certain extent. Knowing limitations is good. Biggest issue is oil pressures if you are running FI, high heat high gforce on longer courses will be a problem.

[@christianherrero8053]

savagegeese cool thanks I was thinking about getting one down the line ...I have the new STi now and just watched your review on it but was hoping you had the chance to put it on the lift and break it down like you did this and the RS haha ...I like a real world view on these cars

[@Joolz1982]

He was close $10,000 an old GT86 in 2019. I wish GT86 fans $5,000 as I would already own one.

[@ShinjiB]

Do you think adding any sort of FI on the 86/BRZ platform would be a mistake? Or just the Vortech Kit? I hear the Jackson Racing supercharger holds up pretty good...

[@Primitivegarage915]

The vortech kit has a lot of issues. Go to the forums and ask the owners. I have yet to talk to someone that had that kit with no issues. Jackson and kraftwerks make more power and they are truly direct bolt on, I've installed two of the kraftwerks kit on my friends frs & brz. No cutting, drilling or anything. Just bolt it on and tune it. They also make more power than vortech and they sound better in my opinion.

[@ShinjiB]

Luis Alfredo Thanks for the response. I'll take a look at the forums..

[@savagegeese]

Actually the Vortech unit is not the problem here its the FA20 issue with Oil Temps and Pressures.

[@christobar]

savagegeese What oil were you using?

[@RLDigital]

keep up the good work guys

[@BoostedR130]

Excellent comparison

[@helix3304]

part of the 2s difference is from the drag with the open top ... aerodynamics

[@yawnyle]

How does a FRS + supercharger have the same hp as an S2000? The S2000 only has 40 hp more, a supercharger should add a lot more than that.

[@outforaripper]

those ohlins made the difference.

[@duviday]

"you want a track car, you want a race car, you just buy one - the 86 is the furthest thing from that" What the hell are you on about? What is this magical off-the-shelf track and/or race car that you are talking about? For the price of a new 86? The 86 has been touted by literally everyone except you as a fantastic rear-wheel-drive starter kit for newbie enthusiasts looking to get into the track/autocross etc. scene. And you're calling it the "furthest thing possible" ?? What, even worse than a Prius? Typical American sensationalism..

[@CreepinCreeper145]

Too much investment in the engine & suspension departments to get it up to speed & pace from what you get stock.

[@yellow_id]

Saying they want it to be an even battle, but they change the s2k to make it somewhat worse. Should've been stock vs stock

[@chrisgregson3626]

'Hurhurhur, they, like, have no torque and, like, it's still a really, like, funny joke, cos nobody has, like, made it before, hurhurhurhur!' Get over it! These cars are both great to drive. You don't need ridiculous bhp and torque figures to have fun! S2 wins by miles. Future classic!

[@mark-kf3md]

Not a bad review but there are a number of problems with the supposedly equal playing field comparison. #1. Big issue: Do you guys know what TORQUE is? The FRS has a supercharger and therefore a huge torque advantage. The horse power maybe the same but the FRS likely has a 50 to 75 ft lbs torque advantage. Even if it was 30 ft lbs that's a 20% advantage #2. If the S2000 has the stock alignment this a big disadvantage. It handles like a different car with the right alignment settings. There's more but that's enough.

[@savagegeese]

S2000 is trackish alignment. Not stock. unfortunately the FA20 makes more TQ than the F22C. With FI we could make same wheel HP but TQ will never match. Its not a completely level test of course but we did enjoy the S2000 more.

[@Texarmageddon]

savagegeese Now we need you to make a review of the RX8 vs the FRS/BRZ

[@savagegeese]

***** Its mainly because running a stock FRS/BRZ gets annihilated by and stock S2000 on the track. So matching HP number is easy. TQ not so much because the FA20 just makes more TQ than the F22. Again we spend a year running them together. S2000 is a better car.

[@savagegeese]

Yes its impossible to match torque numbers, however S2000 had a track alignment.

[@davidpaulin]

***** midrange torque is pretty much similar to the s2k since vortech blowers dont put out much power at low rpms .. and the idea of setting both cars at similar power numbers is a great idea because that way you can compare apples to apples .. using same rubber is also a plus.. but even without the supercharger just a few bolt ons would make an frs as quick as the s2k on a track since the frs can get much more grip with the lower center of gravity and wider stance..

[@dumyjobby]

10:29 ni e screen saver you have there

[@bleensteen9331]

Higher avg speed in the S2000 but lower peak and longer overall time suggests the brz was outdragging it down the straights. Guess the supercharger gives a fatter torque curve so power output is higher most of the time even though peak HP looks the same.

[@Filthy_Goblin_44]

the brz was built for entry level sports car functionality, its was made to be cheap, easy to modify easy to replace parts with and with high expectations of abuse. the s2k was made to be stock for its entire life. It was made to be a highly balanced car for certain drivers that just want to feel good without it having to matter whether or not it puts down good times. Its a convertible for pete's sake. I don't think there's enough similarity for these cars to be comparable or for one to really be better than the other overall because what it comes down to is preference. If it were me I would pick up the brz with the intention of replacing most of the parts and turning it into a track monster.

[@bujin5455]

I sure hope he's right that the Subaru twins are going to be $5k cars in 5 years, I think he's probably wrong though. We're two years into the prediction, BRZ/FRS inventory isn't much higher, and used prices are still hovering around $20ish k for a clean title. But if I could buy one in 2021 for $5k, I'd love to turn it into a project car!

[@XxFZLxX]

driving with the top down made any difference?

[@07reflexvw]

I think the GT86 does well on AutoX. I beat s2000's and I used stock wheel with RS3's and furtune 500 coilovers. With a header back exhaust and tune the GT86 does fairly well against the s2000. Stock vs Stock the s2000 is way better but the MSRP was around 32k. The GT86 was 25k so it gives you room for imrpovement. I love mine but it could use more power for track but does well on AutoX.

[@Xmvw2X]

Excellent review and comparison between these two great cars. I feel you really hit some of the sore spots that most reviewers are completely unwilling to touch. Bravo! The S2000 is an awesome car that's stood the test of time better than just about anything else in existence. The FRS/BRZ platform is incredibly capable once modded and can produce super car level performance numbers when heavily developed. The FRS/BRZ is a boring car to drive in some ways. It's balanced, decently communicative in this modern era, but boring. Even when the back end rotates out, it's still a ho-hum experience. Something like the S2000 is more fun. It's more interesting to drive. There's more fan fair/pezazz in the car. Heck if we're talking fun, I'd grab an older Mustang GT at the same price level and rock that more than anything for pure fun factor. At the same price level you're just stepping into the 2011 model range with the updated V8 engine, and the thing's a hoot to drive, a hassle inertially without getting better damping, but a ton of fun. I got to auto-x one last year, and it's pretty much the only car I've been in recently that when I got out of the car I said to myself, "I wouldn't mind owning one of these." Interestingly, I drove a BRZ on the auto-x course the same day. It's a good car, but that thing did nothing for me at all. It's just not interesting enough to drive. I'd pick up a S2000, M3, 370Z, or one of many other cars over a BRZ/FRS if we're talking fun factor and straight forward driving enjoyment. I know reviewers tout the car, and frankly I think the chassis, as a development platform, is a great base to start with. It has potential, but man you're throwing money at the car to get something truly interesting from it. Yet stock, there's a lot to be desired. One of the more interesting cars I've been in over the years was an old first gen RX7. They're sweet, little cars, very mechanical and light. There hasn't been a car that I've driven or ridden in over the years that stood out more. That's really the problem Toyota and Subaru have. The BRZ/FRS platform in stock trim just doesn't stand out enough. Soon the new Miata will be out and cut into sales hard. Plus there's a pile of hot hatches, cheap and turbocharged hot hatches, that provide a ton of fun factor for the same target market.

[@ygammay]

Loving the Shining Force Final Battle Music Remix.

[@savagegeese]

Thanks the guy who re did the music did a great job!

[@vhduongjr]

Dude.... You supercharged the 86...you boosted its torque of course it's going to have a faster lap time...

[@frostmourne1360]

Are you using the OEM gas pedal? I'm having a hard time heel and toeing in mine, my feet aren't that big or long either.

[@savagegeese]

I know plenty of people have issues. I have not had a problem with heel to toe on the 86.

[@frostmourne1360]

savagegeese I can do it to a certain extent (poorly), though I wouldn't consider it heel toe. Its more of a heel to opposite side of heel. You seem to be able to do it effortlessly.

[@connarcomstock161]

Cool video guys, very informative, I didn't know about the rust issues on the FR-S after only 2 years. Living in Canada, with salt and all sorts of shit on the roads in the winter, that'll factor into my decision weather or not to purchase one. The S2k is looking better and better, have to admit.

[@etnies88]

I have a FRS and its a great daily car, get looks and good mpg. I tossed around doing FI but it seems to cost at least 5k for an additional 100whp price per HP is not effective enough. I came to the conclusion to sell the car and buy something different If I want more power. I would also pick a S2k over the FRS/BRZ If I had to choose, I can say that because I've had an AP1.

[@marloon88]

So is that ragrets?

[@Trantdiggity]

interested in what a stock 86 platform would do vs the s2000. From what best motoring international has tested the 86 platform is a great platform. Love the s2000 and it will most defiantly always be a more desirable car, but the 86 was designed really well knowing that people would be tracking and auto crossing the cars. The AP2 is great but that is the second generation of that platform. It will be interesting to see where the GT86 goes when it enters gen 2. There is a lot of speculation but it looks like it will get a jump to 2.5l without forced induction jumping HP to 250. As far as how the cars will hold up there is no doubt that the honda is made better but it also cost ~$34000msrp. It is obviously up to what ever buyer wants to spend and what they prefer. I am very surprised at the track times the 86 platform has been able to achieve in comparison to cars upmarket to it and it is really exciting that it is offered at under $30000.

[@wwhite36]

it seems like you have wider rubber up front on the FRS. It looks like it had fast corner entry speed because of it.

[@savagegeese]

FRS has 235 front and rear. S2000 225/255

[@Mrboombastic936]

im floored at two things. 1st, only 70k views:? second... why so many dislikes? must be too much but hurt from ricers. Very VERY well done. its clear just how much money and effort you put into making the video as well as the money spent on the cars, track time, dyno time.. everything. I am currently with an FRS (live it.. basic mods like header tune) and seriously considering buying an s2000. lightweight, rearwheel drive sport cars appeal to me. I would go porsche but im not loaded. I would go FI on my FRs but no mechanical skills and this and your other videos summarize the headaches. the question now is.. where do I find a non molested s2000 for a fair price! great show man.. thanks

[@STEELERS743]

S2000 all the way I dont feel like giving them the same HP is fair because I bet the FRS has a ton more torque the the NA S2k

[@asnoir84]

In the end of de video you heard rattles. What kind of rattle was that? Thanks

[@SpartanG6]

What model of helmet is the great Turbowski using in this video? I like the look and i wanna be cool like him

[@savagegeese]

Bell!

[@caspforge]

The frs was not designed around the same idea in mind as the s2000. Toyota is actually in the process of designing a car more along those lines. Either way they are both great cars and only reason I pic the frs is because of practicality for daily use otherwise the're both good drivers cars

[@ae86det]

The brakes in the FRS squealed a LOT i know they neutralized tires and "evened out" hp (tq advantage to frs) but were brakes mentioned ? It really sounded like frs brakes had to have more aggressive compound pads at least.

[@savagegeese]

+ae86det Both had XP12 Carbotechs. S2000 on Cryo blanks.

[@ae86det]

savagegeese wow am pretty shocked at the huge lap time differences really. What do you guys think it really came down to? That extra torque? And even though the s2000 has am sure a pretty good factory tune. But a factor could be a "tuned" 200+ whp is more aggressive vrs a factory 200+ whp if that makes sense which i think it does even in high hp tuned cars vrs similar hp exotics.

[@savagegeese]

Yes for sure it was the TQ, and of course the car was less eager to lose the rear under power. But with dampers on the S2000 it would be likely no more than a second slower than the 86. And in the end regardless the S2000 was more engaging to drive from a driver perspective.

[@ae86det]

savagegeese would be nice to take it to another level and now say ok that evened power advantage but NA vrs boost. Can you get your hands on a supercharged s2000?

[@savagegeese]

I drove one in the past but dont have one local to toy around with now. But its a good idea.

[@shahulhusman]

I don't think most tracks let you go in an s2000 without a rollbar.. Or hardtop.. I'd like a rollbar that fit under the factory soft top.. That a thing?

[@manrightchea]

Not really a representative race. The reason being that the supercharger is going to add alot of mid range torque that would not be present otherwise This would make all the difference on a high transition track such as this. Although this is a very interesting perspective. I especially agree about the drive-by-wire nonsense.

[@davidpaulin]

manrightchea well not in that case since they lowered the power but even then a vortech blower is pretty linear so there isn't much torque before 4k and on a race track they keep cars at the top of their powerband..

[@TheBb6prelude]

+davidpaulin neither car as much torque but the frs definitely has more because of the SC.