Rey and the sad devolution of the female character

[@thorskywalker]

Unfortunately, I have a lot to do this evening so I won’t get a chance to read and respond to many comments until later. However, I’ll likely be making this the topic of next weekend’s (not this weekend’s) Let’s Talk Some Star Wars video... so any and all well thought out responses will be appreciated and potentially brought up in that video.

[@alesiasredruby1511]

Perhaps for one of your Let's Talk Some Star Wars videos you could talk about why everyone loves Ahsoka so much and what makes her special. She never actually grew on me and I'm really curious to hear what people have to say about her.

[@robinthrush9672]

Everyone forgets about Gary Stu/Marty Sue. Probably because A: two names instead of one makes the trope harder to remember B: even the best examples of the male Mary Sue is either a character who is very specialized and in situations he's been specialized to perform well in (James Bond) or a joke character (Pooty Tang).

[@teehach7653]

I agree Disney fucked up, and may I add that my favorite character of all time is Darth Traya. “ you have much to learn. (Disney)” Kraia

[@spazzmaticus1542]

Hey Thor. Your videos are great. I've noticed that the whole "ram your ship so the crew can make their escape" in TLJ is almost exactly the same as the intro to Star Trek 2009. Star Trek 2009's intro works because it is lazer focused on Kirk's mother and father, while in TLJ we have the convergence of 4 different plotpoints. Almost like the end of the phantom menace. RLM coined it as the ending multiplication effect. Its jarring because it provides no emotion. It leaves you feeling numb because too much is going on. I'm suppose to feel suspense for Fin and Ros being executed, sad for holdo's sacrifice and chearing for Rey to beat kylo. Its impossible to hold all those emotions at once. Anyway, your videos are greatly appreciated. May the force be with you.

[@danielwright6277]

I liked it so much better, when writers "burned the midnight oil", and tried really hard to make character's relatable, believable, and gender wasn't as important. Viewers, or readers, got invested in the character, and story...gender barely registered.

[@SigmaSyndicate]

Fun fact: In the original script for Alien, the genders for all of the characters was left ambiguous, so that the casting director could fit the best actors for the role. So, they didn't even know the main character for the movie would be a girl until Sigourney Weaver killed it during casting.

[@terah101]

That proves there was absolutely no political agenda behind Alien. Nothing was forced, and it showed in the final product, producing one of the finest female action heroes the cinema has ever seen.

[@Obooyer]

SigmaSyndicate veeery coool :)

[@randomjoe3941]

Clearly you're lying because women have never been given a chance in the Male dominated misogynist Hollywood. Ripley being a female was an accident of course, the casting director obviously thought sigourney weaver was a guy. It's the only possible way any woman could ever get a starring role in a movie prior to the enlightenment that was captain marvel!!! Sadly that extreme sarcasm is what feminists like Kathleen Kennedy want people to believe as "fact"

[@Obooyer]

Dan L are you being sarcastic?

[@Муня-ж7з]

@@Obooyer He is. He clearly shows that in the last sentense.

[@syrsafox32]

You can not MAKE an iconic character. Only a great character can BECOME an iconic character.

[@barrylyndon5552]

Honestly with the power and story and money Disney now wields I think they could rather easily spit out iconic characters. Just write a decent one and put them into such incredible movies that they gain a legend. Rey had a chance, she's literally a noboby and a Trilogy hero like Anakin or Luke but she wont be remembered as fondly as Anakin let alone Luke. They tried to roll out a feminist agenda hero and it backfired

[@hugolalumiere9992]

The kings of advertising and consumerism think otherwise. Create something generic, hype the crap out of it, overexpose it and voila. Big money icon. Well... at least that's the plan.

[@doolenny9458]

Syrsa Fox do u mean u cannot make an iconic character u can only make a great character the becomes an icon

[@slayah94]

Syrsa Fox, Amen.

[@dddmemaybe]

A terribly great or greatly terrible character haha.

[@ausar3852]

We don't hate women; we hate poorly written characters being hidden behind *strong woman* excuse...

[@mattvmalone]

Something being poorly written is only an opinion.

[@ausar3852]

@@mattvmalone It kinda is more like a fact... You may like the film thats fine but the aspects of what makes a good movie is absent in recent starwars films (except Rogue One)

[@mattvmalone]

@@ausar3852 And that's an opinion.

[@ausar3852]

@@mattvmalone look man lf you enjoy it thats totally fine good for you.Me and many others didnt and we are sharing our opinion about it. If you like you can create your own comment and say why you disagree and why its actually a well written film go for it. I dont see the point of your comment here

[@mattvmalone]

@@ausar3852 My point, is that you are stating your opinions as facts, when they are only opinions. If you didn't like it, that's fine! *That* is a fact. And you don't have to like it, either. But don't go around stating things you didn't like for reasons that are opinions. A character that you think is poorly written is only your opinion, especially when you realize the fact that countless other people that are not you, disagree with your opinion.

[@rainbowcake4771]

“Female” is not a personality trait.

[@Legba85]

That’s a major drawback when creating a female character. Female character: ❌ Character who happens to be female: ✔️ Always develop the mind and the personality before gender becomes a wonder.

[@autisticduck3071]

Liam Patrick I hayt u bad man :C

[@AParticularlyPointySoldier]

Liam Patrick it’s sad that people still bait for attention.

[@cybersketcher1130]

There are phsychological differences between genders though.

[@stoked-6996]

The ability to speak does not make them intelligent.

[@MVG101]

disney: you guys just don’t like rey because she’s a woman ahsoka: *laughs in character development*

[@thatrandomeliteultra1158]

@ThanPixel well I guess there arent

[@afanofstuff9123]

Nothing more to say its a fact Ahsoka is a well loved character who deserves the love she gets because she has problems and grew to overcome them she was impatient and naive and that got people killed Ray is a scavenger who jumped in and said yeah I am the strongest force user now I am the chosen one Anakin who? You know what I will just take his last name see I am the chosen one

[@thatrandomeliteultra1158]

@@afanofstuff9123 pretty much

[@thatrandomeliteultra1158]

@@afanofstuff9123 Now can you (as an anyone not you per say) make character that there problem is just being a Mary Sue and she needs to overcome that?

[@afanofstuff9123]

@@thatrandomeliteultra1158 the thing with Ray was she wasn't all ways a marysue in the force awakens she is a scavenger showing she has experience with how ships work she then feels kylo in her head so she gets the basics on the force but then all of a sudden she know more about lightsaber dueling than kylo the second movie should have shown her hitting her lowest Lowe so in the last move she can rise above what she was in the first movie that's character development that's what Ahsoka had she left the order her lowest moment feeling betrayed then in rebels she is wiser stronger in the force

[@sincerelysomehumaniguess7610]

'' We don't have any strong female characters in star wars! " Leia and Ahsoka: *exists*

[@michaelminervini1908]

Mon Mothma Amadala (even if you don't like the prequels, her character was Strong without making all the males around her inept.) Gotta say though after the last two movies, the prequels are looking better.

[@donutkidpastry7895]

Kreia and the exile: *also exists*

[@MrRjwagner]

@@michaelminervini1908 Not to mention Smee (Anikin's mother.) Yes, she wasn't around for THAT long, but she had just enough screen time and enough dialogue that you instantly know what kind of person she is and what Anikin means to her, all without words. Yes, we know what happens to her at the end, but that act with her in it is enough to make her a strong and memorable character who young boys and girls can look up to. Showing that, you do not need to be an unstoppable badass with a lightsaber to be a strong person. Like, you'd get and understand from the first minute that she is a struggling single mother whose only goal in life is to provide enough for herself and her son, even if she herself suffers a bit for it to make sure he has food and a bed. Now, a part of this is bleeding over from the novelization, which was actually really good, but even just the movie shows Smee in a calm and loving light because, well... that's who she is. Not because she's a woman, but because she's just a good person trying to do right for her son in a world that could care less if they lived or not. And besides... that final scene with Anikin and his mother in the first movie was easily one of the best scenes in the entire prequel trilogy.

[@afatcatfromsweden]

Amidala, Ventress, Baris, shak ti, luminara and yaddle.

[@bobpadget5106]

Not to mention Mara Jade Skywalker, and Jaina Solo. But if course they are no longer Canon. And I quote Han Solo, "The kid can fly!"

[@DolFan316]

I'll put this another way, nobody needs to tell people a woman's badass if she's actually badass.

[@jacevicki]

No true king has to say "I am the king."

[@ADeadlierSnake]

This, so much. I'll add my own saying on top of it: If a female character is written so that her defining trait is "she's strong" then she isn't

[@booates]

yet all these rey-like characters are constantly whining that they're capable, something no capable person has ever done

[@oscarwilde-fan880]

(Aliens) Hudson (addressing Vasquez): "Somebody ever mistake you for a man?!?" Vasquez: "No. What about you???" Talking badass female characters....

[@mystupidreviews8736]

Furiousa

[@pageachatter229]

I'm a woman, and I found Ray to just be boring and unrelatable. She never has to work for anything. She never struggles. She just gets handed everything on a silver platter. How am I supposed to care about a character who's given the easy button for literally *every* situation?

[@hbleblanc205]

I feel like she's more of a propaganda statement than character. She so boring.

[@alexh6767]

A lot of females hated Rey my sister found her annoying

[@PacificViceroy]

"She never has to work for anything." What are you talking about? Rey lived on a desert planet for many years, having to fend for herself while constantly hoping that somehow her parents would come back.

[@sedy5297]

@@PacificViceroy That was about her whole character when she was introduced. There is nothing more to her. And after 5 Minutes of the movie she immediately abandons her wait to join the Resistance without any mentioning of a motivation to do so

[@Valiguss]

Emerald Typhoon yeah but as soon as she gets off the planet it’s ridiculous she just pulls random bs wins, part of this is kilo rens incompetence who I hate and part is her being a palpatine but I can’t think about that for 8n the moment critique

[@Korovkin_Pavel]

LOL, you could genderswap Rey to Roy and he would be the same poor written overpowered character.

[@spacehitler4537]

@Cool Dude God and just as insufferable.

[@ryapowa]

@Cool Dude I mean, at least Kirito never had to edit out someone's weapon in a throne room in order to survive. So he's just barely more tolerable than Rey, but just barely, because hearts/willpower > data or something like that.

[@sirkuchen1501]

No he wouldnt. Because then the SJW Idiots would have written him to fail (Its actually a very hypothetical saying, it would never happen)

[@stfuplease1051]

And what? We are talking about what StrONk wOMeN argument does for the industry

[@InfernosReaper]

I'd have gone with Rey to Ray for that bit, but your point is solid. God, that dude would genuinely be just as insufferable. And, now, I'm imagining gender swaps resulting Ray vs Kylie and it plays out just as poorly.

[@britbloc123]

I've seen more footage of Daisy Ridley training to be Rey than I've seen of Rey training to be a Jedi. :(

[@3oxisprimus848]

Classic

[@loganhurley4764]

britbloc123 Daisy is the real hero, not Rey

[@wrestlerboy500]

@@loganhurley4764 it sucks that people harrassed her when she puts in so much hard work to portray this character. People need to harrass the people writing Rey because they're the reason Rey is a terrible character, not Daisy.

[@Jackspiring]

Haha! Too true...

[@TheRealerArbor]

I like Daisy, but I dont like Rey :/ Daisy is incredible. Wish she had a better team if writers.

[@whatisantilogic138]

Sarah Conor had a mental breakdown because a killer robot from the future tried to kill her and she responded by training and preparing. The bride from kill bill was a trained assassin and was betrayed, so she used her skills to get revenge. Trinity from the Matrix woke up in a world where robots and AI had taken over the world. Her skills were downloaded (like everyone else) and she used those skills and joined the army of humans rebelling against the matrix. All of these women are loved by fans and they all got beat up and struggled and suffered and felt like real humans. We saw all of them train and grow as they fought for what they believed in. Rey training? Nope. Stuggle? Nope. What does she beleive in? 🤔 what is she fighting for?🤔

[@Eric-yn6ur]

I'll keep that going, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, one of my favorite shows of all time. Buffy kept falling in love with Vampires, her sworn enemy. She was without a doubt a very strong lead female character. But she has many flaws and failures. And despite having supernatural strength her character felt grounded and real.

[@josiahwon699]

she’s fighting for bEn SoLO

[@Dragonage2ftw]

Rey struggles against Kylo in the forest, and with trying to find a place in the world. Which is what her arc is about. Trying to make something out of a history of nothing. Don’t be sexist.

[@Dragonage2ftw]

She’s fighting to prevent the Nazi’s from ruling again, and to ensure that Kylo doesn’t do anything he regrets. Wow! It’s almost like I’ve watched SW, and you haven’t!

[@horizonbrave1533]

What the bloody hell...do WOMEN have to suffer and prove themselves to you...to be "Okay" in your eyes? There are plenty of male lead characters who just show up and kick ass, and everyone just accepts it. You guys are singling out women who have to literally get the shit kick out of them and dragged through the mud, for you to be okay with them THEN. Do you get how that sounds? LIke if a female character isn't beaten down and have to prove herself worthy, she's completely a waste and not worth caring about? She can't be bad ass like her male counterparts, just because??

[@MagyarGaben]

Moral of the story: Write female CHARACTERS, not FEMALE characters!

[@catsithx]

How about a FEMALE CHARACTER!!!!!

[@sandman5522]

@@catsithx Or a female character.

[@catsithx]

@@sandman5522 or a female without character.

[@310shadow310]

@Isaac Phillips 🤣

[@310shadow310]

@KingFisher Theo he put the emphasis on "Character " and not on female, which is what Hollywood is doing to push this BS girl power agenda. Focus on the character and not the fact that she is a woman. Yes I know, its crazy how much info was in that one sentence he wrote!

[@Gusmed007]

I just realized that, up until Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader had never been bested in one-to-one combat. In the first movie, he defeats Obi-Wan, and in the second, he defeats Luke... so anyone who sat on the theater to watch RotJ for the first time was actually seeing the hero go up against an unbeatable force. Anyone who still wants to see Episode IX has seen Kylo Ren be physically defeated by Rey twice... by one Patrorian Guard... AND morally defeated by Luke...’s shadow. The only thing to fear is that he might get angry... and scream... or break something... not much tension there.

[@sinistar99]

Which movie has Kylo be "physically defeated?" Ray barely gets away twice and the first time Kylo is near mortally injured from a bow caster that the movie took special time to show you "hey this is a really powerful weapon." Pearls before swine.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@sinistar99 you say that like that's anywhere close to true, people talk about the bowcaster shot like it isn't a power boost to a darth lord, any emotion can fuel the dark side, pain and hatred are the 2 best emotions for channeling strength, he should have been like bane after hitting venom, not like bane at the age of 85 dying of liver failure

[@sinistar99]

@@calebbarnhouse496 I say that because it is 100% true. WTF are you babbling about? Nothing in the movies, clone wars, rebels, EU supports that somehow a dark force user is immune to bow caster damage or gains power from it. Lol why do they bother blocking blaster bolts then? Why did Kylo stop the bolt in mid-air why not just let it hit him and "make him stronger?' You're really grasping and it's hilarious.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@sinistar99 ok moron, how do you get with are immune to damage, from sith draw power from there wounds, with are at there most dangerous when they are nearing death, hell there is a sith lord who held himself together well after death based entirely on his hate and pain, but do go one a out how pain can't make the dark side stronger, despite that being one of there largest boosters in power

[@Steve-fe4lq]

Actually, Vader was bested by Obi-Wan in Episode III. Obi-Wan was never defeated by Vader, because in A New Hope, he willingly sacrificed himself to Vader's lightsaber so that he could reach out to Luke from the force, therefore becoming a far stronger force in Luke's development.

[@mcolottiboy]

Ahsoka Tano is everything that Rey should be and isn’t.

[@petersusek1403]

Yes thank you!

[@battlesheep2552]

Didn’t most people hate Ahsoka at first and it took a movie and several television seasons of character development for people to start liking her?

[@ultimatedestroyer338darkwi5]

@@battlesheep2552 exactly, because she went through proper character development, we got to see her grow as a character and see her personality change from being impulsive, rash and headstrong into a wise jedi willing to even put her own life on the line to help others. We watched her struggle, we watched her go through trials and make mistakes, we grew to care about her and become invested in her story as we watched her grow.

[@battlesheep2552]

UltimateDestroyer338 Darkwing228 it just seems silly to compare the two and come to the conclusion that Ahsoka is superior. Both were hated at first, but Ahsoka has had a a much longer time to develop as a character

[@ultimatedestroyer338darkwi5]

@@battlesheep2552 Difference is, Ashoka has a character to develop, she had obstacles and wasn't instantly good at almost everything she tried. She wasn't that great or skilled at first, but improved over time. Rey on the other hand has a wooden persona!ity and can do pretty much most things she tries perfectly with no effort or training, this is not good character, it is bad and lazy character design and writing and as someone who writes stories and creates characters, I know what I'm on about.

[@Twisthiphop]

I feel like making a perfect female character is disrespectful to women itself, because if you make un-relatable, perfect characters no one can relate to them, and it gives a message that all women should be perfect, like said characters, which is untrue and wrong

[@Steve-fe4lq]

They have been doing that with women's physical appearances for decades, painting all slender, rail thin women as having The "perfect" figure. The pushback to that agenda is the other extreme, the "Love your unhealthy, plus-sized, 700 pound body" movement. Both are absolutely ridiculous. Not all women grow up to be movie star glam girls, but on the other hand, that is no excuse for women to dangerously let themselves go either.

[@artemisjr1237]

Hollywood and the media have been disrespecting us for centuries. I as a female loved the few counter examples like Sigorney Weaver in Aliens, Leia, Sarah Connor, Star Trek, basically I was able to relate to many of the scifi, video game, and fantasy genre females. These females were the ones who were my role models. I wanted to grow up to be like them when I was a little girl. These women seemed so real and fearless and learned from each of their struggles. I do not like the Hollywood and runway representation of women as being there for looks, sex, to make a sammich, and to be submissive or a bitch. I feel that though each genders are different in a biological sense that we are all in the end human. That is what made these awesome women in scifi, video games, and fantasy genres so appealing to men and non princesses like me. It is degrading to me that character types like those represented by Rey are so unbelievable and ultimately unrelatable. I wanted Rey to mean something. Handing someone power without it being earned is just sad. I would have been ok with Rey had she fell a few times, learned from the past, and had to pick herself up like just about any scifi, video game, and fantasy character had to do regardless of gender. That is the whole point of the story is that without struggle there is no point in playing the game etc. I would have been ok with Rey as well if they did not shit all over Luke simultaneously. Speaking of shitting on characters what they did to Po made me shake my head in disgust. He could have been an equal character and would have been a valuable ally. Every main character needs allies. Allies do a few things to a story they help the hero, they give a different perspective, they can be used to further story development in the future, and they help the main character grow. When you Mary Sue the character the way they did Rey they throw all that opportunity for Rey and turn fans against the her.

[@Manglet762]

@@Steve-fe4lq Agreed. Over the years, I have found I am attracted to fat women, but the Media's, and therefore Society's, excessive shoving down my throat the kind of woman I'm SUPPOSED to find attractive makes me feel like a damn freak! but I know excessive fat can be severly bad to your health if you don't manage it properly. I hope at some point, the Fat Acceptence movement sets a firm middle ground somewhere, because while yes, it's sexy to a significant amount of people, being over 400+lbs in fat is just unhealthy, but, at least if you ask me, the 300lb range **CAN** be more acceptable *if you balance it out with exercise and healthy foods here and there*. Really, my thoughts on finding fat people sexy is VERY CONFLICTING, even my personal range of weight to where I find fat women sexy, so I don't know what I firmly believe in just yet.

[@Sahiyena11]

@@Manglet762 lol wtf

[@Schimml0rd]

@@Manglet762 yes wtf man XD Nobody cares, if u want go to vetday and rail dem cripples.... And no, i dont think 150kg can EVER be healthy. It's like saying "well, if i only shoot myself in the left arm chess is still no prob" Yes, ur correct, it's possible to play chess onehanded, but the game will be a struggle and you DEFINITELY ain't gonna live as long as without fking ur body over. And society will have to pay for all these extra surgeries and doctors' visits. Which is kinda ok, we also pay alot of other unnecessary stuff, but it certainly doesn't 'help'. Anyways, fk what u want, the missionary-only-arc ended 100yrs ago ;)

[@acoolnameemm]

the saddest thing about episode 9 is that we all know whats gonna happen in the end: Rey wins theres no other logical outcome, she becomes one of the best lightsaber users and one of the strongest force users *in less than a week*

[@Schimml0rd]

Obviously.

[@stoopid1069]

B-but, Anakin...

[@grif419]

@@stoopid1069 B-but Anakin... had 13 years of formal jedi training when they were at their peak.

[@stoopid1069]

@@grif419 and still couldn't defeated Master High Ground.

[@grif419]

@@stoopid1069 Nothing can beat the highground.

[@Jia1337]

We don't hate women; we hate poorly written characters.

[@jmorales09]

A lot of Star Wars fans do hate women, though

[@tiagogalvao654321]

Than why do you blame the fact that they are bad on feminism and women? Shouldnt you blame it on bad writing. Everytime i see a bad written overpowered male character i dont go cry that its right wing propaganda

[@007killerfrog]

@@tiagogalvao654321 it was blamed on bad writing.. Because they cared about her being a strong female, more than being a strong character

[@tiagogalvao654321]

@WeeItsNookies great argument using facts and logic™. And what political correct climate? People not being douches? Its never lost meaning and weight you just want to be allowed to say racist shit without being called racist like its always been

[@sprtsfanatic1]

EXACTLY! Which is what Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, and the scrip-writers fail to understand. They're pushing a stupid SJW Hollywood agenda, rather than focus on actually developing a real plot and character development. The movie is just so all over the place and so broken, I could write for the rest of the night about how totally fucked the movie is. Luke's character is completely backwards, Kylo Ren either has Dissociative Identity Disorder or just can't stop changing his personality for some unknown reason, Lea can somehow defy all logic of space and "force float," without having any training, speaking of training, Rey has had less than 2 weeks (cannon) of training, yet can best Luke, Kylo and Snoke. That's total fucking bullshit and makes NO SENSE. Luke trained for over 10 years, including 2 Jedi Masters, and only through severe defeat and almost his death, at the hands of the Emperor, was he able to save his father. Rey, which is a character that I honestly wanted to like from the get-go, is just the epitome of a Mary-Sue character that it's laughable and disgraceful. She's received essentially the beginning levels of Jedi training and took out the Emperor's replacement and bested Darth Vader's replacement. Like, seriously, WTF!?!?! Even animated characters have better character development than that! Hell, I'd take a Twilight Sparkle Mary-Sue over Rey at this point. At least her OP makes sense due to training!

[@KNJfan]

if you have to put the gender in-front of "character" when referring to your character, you already failed on creating a good character...

[@arturkvieira]

Right on

[@andreserra4094]

KNJfan Couldn’t have said it better. If your first concerne is creating a “StRong FeMAle ChARacTer” at the cost of sacrificing the story, then you aren’t doing it for the right reasons.

[@MrSGL21]

i attended a talk with author Jonathon Mayberry and he said this "write good characters 1st."

[@nerevarchthn6860]

KNJfan he would have searched in the community for good ideas and make a wonderful story

[@AdultThirdCultureKid1971]

True that.

[@donteros]

Rey isn't an icon, she is a monument. A monument of horrible character writing.

[@Brawler_1337]

A monument to all of Disney’s sins?

[@fictiong6247]

@Skeleton Masher cause the fans understand the lore of SW, something you don't.

[@donteros]

@Skeleton Masher Allow me to use 2 words that will explain why Rey is the worst character ever written in star wars: Mary Sue That is why no one likes her.

[@Vivigreeny25]

@Skeleton Masher A.) I think its dumb that we have to trust that she has all that training in the past and we have no proof and have seen NONE OF IT. B.) It's not that fUn to watch a Mary sue, sure, its still watchable and you can still enjoy it, but you ACTUALLY enjoy when the character, is actually well written! C.) I swear to literally anything if you writte a whole pharagraphe being angry at this ill scream----

[@steve93pa]

@Skeleton Masher okay boomer

[@k-lo1010]

They gave her everything like she stole Luke’s sword, his name, they made her the pilot, the mechanic, Chewie’s friend, she’s the best with a lightsaber, she’s the best with the force and she even stole Po’s sidekick(BB8).Like there is a time to stop.

[@MegaJani]

The phrase "she stole Luke's name" is spot on.

[@timothye.2902]

yes to call her a good role model because she's a "strong female character" is laughable because A) she never struggles. Struggling, failing, and persevering are important lessons for fiction to teach us B) she piggybacks onto an otherwise complete story. Ask yourself that, if every other character of the core protag mix had been competent human beings instead of props to "Rey's" story, would the plot be any different? I'd say no. You could easily make Finn the hero of this story using nothing but the character traits he already has and then boosting his competence. Make him the powerful warrior with a kind heart and steadfast moral dedication that he already is, then give Poe the piloting skills, Han the practical wisdom of a lifetime of mistakes and close calls, and BB8 the tech know how...oh wait that's literally Luke, Han, and R2 in the original trilogy. Damn they really did remake the OT but then added Rey and siphoned everyone's powers into her so everyone else is useless

[@corrat4866]

Timothy E. old Han is Ben

[@da-vidcargill4975]

@@timothye.2902 did you watch the same movies i did ???????????

[@Valpo2004]

@@da-vidcargill4975 pretty sure we all saw her beat a well trained sith Lord with a light saber without her having so much as met a Jedi. I don't care if that sith Lord had a wound or not. A non life threatening wound doesn't turn a great warrior into someone who can be defeated by someone who has never used that weapon before. Darth Vader beats everyone in a fight until the final movie when Luke after having trained with Yoda and on his own wins. The only person even able to hold his own is Vader's former teacher. Kylo Ren beaten in the first movie by some person who's never used a light saber and never met a Jedi.

[@supremeleadersmeagol6345]

One of the many reasons I love George R.R. Martin is that he says: "I don't write female characters, I write characters." Because all his women characters fit into his narrative they work really well and are beloved, because of this. I wish more writers would adopt this.

[@spazzmaticus1542]

That and there are clear stakes. It appears that anyone can die in his stories. With that in mind characters actually have to think about what they say and do or else they die. When plot armor is too strong then it defies plausibility and believability. Star Wars and Marvel are a staple of this because no one ever dies.

[@Avarn388]

Supreme Leader Smeagol I love your username. :) Much as I'm not the biggest fan of GOT, I do agree with Martin on this. I'm actually thankful characters like Rey exist because they show me how NOT to write a female(or any) character. And in contrast, while I love characters, like Kamala Khan, Katara, and Mara Jade from SWs.

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

Supreme Leader Smeagol I quite agree! I love that quote from Martin (one of my most favorite writers ever)! :)

[@BillRoyMcBill]

I don't like George R.R. a bit, but I do respect that.

[@megatom5]

Also with GRRM all of his characters have certain flaws. Dany and Brienne are powerful female characters but not without their flaws. Hell one thing I actually love with Brienne is that she gets her ass kicked in fights but then has these brutal moments to match any kind of fight between men. Notice how a lot of shows and movies these days want to have it both ways, they want to have strong female characters but are afraid to have violence against women or if they do it's just women fighting other women or women dominating men in a fight.

[@Dastankbeets9486]

This trend is actually more sexist than just writing all kinds of characters in both genders

[@max1muslegend772]

On Ant Productions you forgot Apache attack helicopter

[@lobeliaowl2482]

Exactly! The whole thought that girls are not able to relate to male characters and need female ones to have as suitable rolemodels is so backwards and sexist. When I was a younger, I had no problems having male characters like Luke or Harry Potter as my rolemodels or just favourite characters, because I didn't but focus on the characters gender, just their awesome personalities.

[@sinistar99]

AckhtuALlY dur der derrr ... So if Ray was a dude it would be not sexist... got it.

[@EutropeWickedThunder]

The issue is, Rey is a bad female character, if she was better written and developed, we would love her, but its disney's fault, not the actress'.

[@jayzenstyle]

@@EutropeWickedThunder exactly. It's the writers' fault, basically. The actresses is just doing the script, she has little to no control on what she should do in a movie.

[@johncase1353]

Wait, I thought Brie Larson was the first main female character in movie history, because that's what she said.

[@SpectralKnight]

Yeah watching interviews with her and other cast members make you realise no one actually likes her. Some people worship her, but no one likes her as an actual person.

[@cholkymilkmirage4984]

@Lord Daevus the mean girls, avataar, charlies angels, any princess movie, mulan, miss congeniality, all of its fake. Bri LAWrSON was the first

[@megamike15]

she is not even the first female lead in a super hero movie. cat woman, Electra, rouge in the first xmen. i could go on.

[@SpectralKnight]

@@megamike15 They are all objectively not great movies though. Maybe Wonder woman the animated one, though the '' real one'' was enjoyable as well

[@Khorne_of_the_Hill]

I hate how they act like it's groundbreaking every time they do it; Wonder Woman came out like 2 years beforehand, but they either completely ignored it, or paid shills to come up with reasons it didn't count. Black Panther is the only movie that genuinely did something that somewhat deserved the diversity hype

[@tsuba14]

Rey had no journey (external and internal). That is BORING. note: flying from A to B does not a hero's journey itself make.

[@emmaus_way]

Clearly, you have misunderstood Rey's character.

[@tsuba14]

@@emmaus_way your comments are so insightful. Pray do enlighten me.

[@emmaus_way]

@@tsuba14 I am sorry. I will try to explain myself. Rey's personal journey was simply to discover herself, know her past and just understand who she was. But it is more profound that just ''finding herself''. She needed to be born anew with the Force. But most importantly, Rey needed to discover her true purpose and that is to become the redeemer of the Skywalkers. Rey does has many struggles. Most people say ''She didn't lose anything, she got everything for free, she is a God, perfect'', ''She is a Mary Sue''. Are we watching the same movies? On TFA she was shown as a lonely person and sometimes sad and bitter. She had no one so she had nothing to lose *except herself*. She didn't even wanted to be a Jedi when she saw the revelation when she found Luke's light saber. And on every encounter with Kylo yeah she tried hard to fight but Kylo was always shown way more powerful, there were scenes in which Rey is literally running away from Kylo and even on Ep. 9, Kylo was beating her but thanks to Leia who distracted Kylo she had a chance. We only need to pay more attention to details but anyway. Since the beginning she was shown conflicted by her past and present life and then it continued on TLJ where she showed even more internal conflicts. She was basically an orphan, the only thing she ever wanted was a family, a father or a mother to look up to, and she found that in Leia, Luke and her new friends. Remember when I said Rey didn't have anything except herself? Well, on ep. 9 she loses herself. I know it sounds nuts but it's true. She finds out she is Palpatine's grand daughter and she could have accepted her lineage, she could have accepted her birthright to become the Empress of the Galaxy, however, she did not. Instead, *she chose to completely let go of herself* and that's when she starts chanting ''be with me'' and the power that fills her it is not her power, it is not Palpatine's either. The power that fills her is pure Light Side and completely channeled by the other Jedis. Rey is just a *conduit* and she has done what every Jedi ought to do truly if they're following the Force which is completely let go of themselves, *a true Jedi is someone who completely empties themselves and lets the Force flow through them so that the Will of the Force is achieved* and that is how she defeats Palpatine, *by rejecting and losing all of her flesh self* and it is her spiritual self that stands against him. +*The Skywalkers were the chosen family*, Anakin was the chosen one who brought balance to the Force but he did it in a dark way. Luke had the opportunity to mantain balance and instead fell away, Leia is certainly less guilty than the others but still acted out of fear in letting go of her Jedi path. Ben fell away and helped to bring imbalance back. So now all the Skywalkers are dead because of the choices they made collectively as a family and Rey took that family name to redeem them, so that the Skywalker name can live on and be what the Force always intended it to be. Rey finalizes this story arc for the Skywalkers and *she reedems them all*. Rey powers has always been to look in the waste and find something good and find value in it and bring that value out of itself. We see it in what she does with hearts and we see it with what she does with people. Living in exile and alone was the perfect combination for her to become a Sith. Both Luke and Leia knew that Rey had a good heart and spirit despite her dark lineage and they still decided to train her because they knew she was going to become their redeemer.

[@arthurmorgan6390]

María José except she is a Mary Sue. She needs no training to wield a lightsaber effectively, knows how to fly perfectly, despite never flying before, magically can use force lightning, and the few injuries she gets never hinders her.

[@emmaus_way]

On TFA Rey mentions she has experience piloting, she says it to Finn. This is confirmed and explained in The Force Awakens: Rey's Story chapter book. Rey built her own flight simulator out of old ship pieces. Besides, nobody gets to say that training is required for her to be good at any of the things she does because this is a space fantasy that regularly changes the rules and has done so since the very beginning. People tend to critic SW as if it were some art cinema when actually is an Space Opera. A lot in the SW universe don't make sense like gravity, explotions, people not using oxygen mask when visiting a new planet, I mean is nuts but this just an space opera not science. There is plenty of evidence that proof that Rey it is not a Mary sue and even if she were, what's the issue? there are so many Mary Sue or Gary Stu in so many the movies, even books. If you don't like Rey that's fine but don't try to undermine her character just because you don't like her.

[@megazwatcher]

being brave is not a lack of fear bravery is being scared shitless and doing what needs to be done anyway

[@weswolever7477]

Ellen Ripley in the first and second alien movies was the epitome of that idea ( I loved the human/alien hybrid Ellen)

[@fabiocosta3830]

@Son of Darkness and the Lord of the Netherrealm a mini mouth that comes for the main mouth WITH enough pression to go trough the forehead (hardest part of the skull) without any issue. Plus pressurized acidic blood that corrode neigh everything it touches and sprays in thick, stick, gelatinous coagules when wounded/shot.

[@gametrollerprime1594]

Jon Pertwee has the entered the chat.

[@comradethegreat3599]

Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid.

[@waylonlewin3322]

brave is when your not scared and your taking things seriously and over come your fears now braverly isn't shitless

[@brandonmccall6664]

It’s hard to argue we are sexist and hate “strong female characters” when movies like alien, kill bill, and hunger games make boat loads of money.

[@AlexRazorGame]

Never really liked "hunger games". But not because of female character, but because of the whole "teenagers revolt agains the evil oppression" thing.

[@brandonmccall6664]

AlexRazorGame I’ll admit that’s a tired out concept and I’m not a huge fan of the series either but my point was that katniss isn’t a Mary Sue she’s an interesting character and because of that she’s appealing to a larger audience rather than people who just wanna watch a woman be better than men. The teen revolt thing is a bit of an tired idea tho I’ll agree to that

[@AlexRazorGame]

@@brandonmccall6664 Well, sometimes she's too badass, but it's common for the teenage movie. Other than that I agree - she's much better written and much more interesting.

[@baconaxolotl]

@@AlexRazorGame who in action scenes she may seem badass that is balanced by her personal characterisation of not wanting her to be the leader, unlike a lot of dystopian teen stories. She has more bad traits or "flaws" then most characters because she has emotions that reflect modern society.

[@alphathehedgehogx96]

Cool Dude it does though the society in the Hunger Games series is dystopian by nature there's no especially set thing on how "dystopia" works, aside from there being a "state of great suffering or Injustice" by base definition

[@dohyunlee1439]

You're supposed to write a great character and then make them female, not build the character around the fact that they are female.

[@cankhovich1796]

ripley was written as a male

[@cremist7921]

B HoleHe said to write a great character first. They did not make Rey a good character.

[@mattchu_chow9087]

Nah u can do it both ways just make the character relatable and badass without having to prove a point

[@ruthlessrubberducky5729]

Exactly

[@kryogennek2914]

FACTSSSS

[@vinceboros6154]

kathleen kennedy: The fans dont like rey because she is a female !!!!!!!! Ashoka: Am I joke to you?

[@fatdaddyeddiejr]

What about Mara Jade?

[@biggsdarklighter0473]

@@fatdaddyeddiejr legends

[@John_You_Tube]

Its makes me laugh whenever they say that. They've never watched star wars I can name a few off the top of my head Leia Ashoka Bo katan Satine Padme The imperial governor from rebels And hera

[@sandman5522]

Princess Leia:

[@sabinecolie5258]

leia and padme: 😢

[@cb6733]

Hey guys we can’t get mad at Rey She doesn’t have a character to be mad at!

[@BossGaming-sf3ch]

Bas games which is?

[@Gcool243]

Bas games can you explain where her character has truly been developed in episode 7 and/or 8?

[@markovic_shebang]

Truly a 360 no scope moment to be had.

[@liamholloway-sw7eu]

Jaina solo is 10000000 times better than wooden dull overpowered Mary Sue Rey

[@jahmelbrewster4568]

Bas games so u like Rey?

[@paulfritz3552]

I think another wonderful example of a well written and empowering female protagonist is Mulan from Disney's Mulan. She is a character who has to work hard to get where she was. She was a bit out of her league when she first started. She didn't really know what she was doing and struggled. But through hard work, determination, and some cleverness she succeeded. On top of that. She relied on the help of her friends to succeed, she didn't do it singlehandedly. Meanwhile we also see the growth of the other male characters who are growing alongside Mulan. We see that she is not the only one struggling and the only one who is capable of achieving anything. Finally when she manages to take out the Hun army she does it in a very risky and suspenseful way. And as a result she nearly dies when Shan Yu slashes her. We know she is not unstoppable and that her act of bravery came with a near fatal price.

[@paulfritz3552]

The point I'm making is that she is a well rounded character we want to see succeed. And because they aren't invincible we feel even more on edge when they are in danger and happy when they come out on top.

[@Satans_Financial_Advisor]

*Spoiler alert* Mulan was a man. How else would she have all those traits?!?!

[@BlueLikeAnIKEABag]

Shit Pickle Like her chest and small waist which immediately got her thrown out of the army when she could not conceal them due to life-threatening injuries and such

[@phoenixrosen9439]

Also we can't forget how she FAILED training and was thrown out in the middle of "I'll Make a Man Out of You". What did she do though? Knowing going home would bring shame to her family, she used her wit to take on Shang's challenge and climbed to the top of the pole to get the arrow. She recognized that she didn't have the raw strength to climb the pole like everyone else had tried before, so instead she figured out a way to turn her disadvantages into a path to success. And that's why she's my favorite Disney princess

[@DocGrimDeatheus]

Yeah i love mulan's story

[@MrRoombastic]

Wonder women never had to brag about her strength. She was strong and people reacted

[@MrRoombastic]

@Salmon i guess we didnt watch the same movie lol

[@MrRoombastic]

@Salmon either movie? Theres only one captain marvel lol

[@MrRoombastic]

@Salmon whose Rey?

[@MrRoombastic]

@Salmon what. By me asking who rey?

[@MrRoombastic]

@Salmon are you in a one sided conversation?

[@Paxicara]

They are skipping over the entire hero’s journey with these characters bc: “look a female as the lead that means she great, right?”

[@nerthus4685]

Because "all women are heroes already".

[@DblOSmith]

"I'm a sci fi fan, but I just hate Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 because I just can't stand strong female characters. She should be in the kitchen." - No one ever.

[@kikudoll6133]

bad ass. had to read it twice and then put my rage pistol down, lol. Thats how you wit in someones face.

[@lennyking1340]

Really good one xD

[@ZeroX7649]

Look at fucking Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween, that was awesome. Because she was a character that already wasn't a political message and I could believe her developing this way.

[@kikudoll6133]

Everything is going to plan. If i wait a few more months maybe i will have just as much likes. Jusss kidding i only started comenting on net stuff in the last few weeks. 5 likes is a milestone baby. GET AWAY FROM HER YOU 💥BUTCH💥...click- CHIKK

[@etmmlopez]

Hit the nail on the head with this one.

[@sortedevaras]

If only there was already a strong female character in Star Wars they could have learned from. . . a princess or something. . . .

[@vladskiobi]

Maybe they could've taken a page out of the EU too. Mara Jade Skywalker, a former Imperial assassin who was trained as a Jedi by Luke after a failed assassination attempt on him (they married too, but that's neither here nor there) Meetra Surik aka The Jedi Exile, A veteran of the mandalorian wars, became a wound in the force after she activated the mass shadow generator, wiping out Malachor V along with every mandalorian, republic soldier and Jedi on it. Became so strong in the force, through her defective connection to it, she was able to take down powerful Sith Lords like Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Darth Traya. Good female characters have motivation, reasons for being how they are, reasons for how powerful they are, and face every type of struggle on the way.

[@hotpockets2224]

@@vladskiobi you dont even need to travel that far down the rabbit hole, Ashoka Tano from the Clone Wars series is a well written character in my opinion. Asaaj Ventress is a badass too. like why would you invent Rey when you had so many other existing concepts to choose from

[@JH-zs3bs]

@@hotpockets2224 How could anyone not mention Padme Amidala yet? Queen of Naboo and Senator in the OId Republic. Yes she failed to see through Palpatines Schemes, but so did everyone, even Yoda.

[@hotpockets2224]

@@JH-zs3bs because Padme is a senator, everything revolving around her had to do with politics. i dont mean to say shes poorly constructed in any regard, but i never felt like she was a main character outside of her relationship with Anakin. Im sure theres a niche EU story arc that develops her character even further, but shes still strong in her own regard

[@areaxisthegurkha]

Star Wars rebels?

[@ispilloil]

I swear, a highschooler could've written better scripts for these movies

[@DemonicBolt66]

several highschoolers did. Fanfic has some beautiful (and horrific) ideas out there that make the latest trilogy look like a burning garbage fire...

[@pegasus_2137]

I could have written a better story when I was a child. All the way back when Disney bought LucasArts, I was so excited, thinking what could happen next, what's going to happen to all these characters. Now, whenever I think about the continuation of Star Wars, what could happen instead of the sequels, my mind is blank. They killed the remains of the child I was. Wonder which story from my childhood will be butchered next. Harry Potter? Oh, wait, Dumbledore is apparently gay.

[@gunstrokethecybertronian8659]

Indeed heck I had a story already in my head all based on a dream I had months ago, and with proper development and care into the story it would be better than how the sequels were as of late

[@Pun291]

@@DemonicBolt66where can I read some of these fics

[@banjotiki3910]

@@pegasus_2137 Why do you even care about Dumbledore being gay? It doesn't change the story.

[@Iskelderon]

It's even sadder when you consider how TV Star Wars is perfectly fine building up great female heroes who succeed on their own merits. Ahsoka Tano, Duchess Satine, Asajj Ventress, Sabine Wren, Hera Syndulla, ...

[@thedistantprinceinyouremai6345]

Wouldn’t call ventress a hero but definitely a good list of good female characters

[@iamnotjapan644]

lennier1 Even more. Luminara Unduli, Aayla Secura, Shaak Ti, Barriss Offee, Bastilla, Mon Mothma, etc etc :(((

[@iamnotjapan644]

Oh shit, also Padme, and arguably Shmi.

[@waylonlewin3322]

rebels garbage what the fans said and the clonewars are a success ahsoka save the starwars fandom from depression now i support sabine promote mandalorian movie and ezra support kanan and he become a jedi knight one day darth maul obiwan and 3-po and r2 made a appearance which got my attention ahsoka and uncle hondo now

[@BlindSp0tz]

@@iamnotjapan644 Luminara and Aayla had like 5 lines each in Clone Wars, Shmi had 3 scenes, and then half a movie about how she's helplessly dying in some sand people's camp and Bastilla was never in any TV Star Wars production. I could agree with Barriss if her story made any kind of sense.

[@101Crock]

A character without flaws is a bad character.

[@toweypat]

Amen.

[@daymi7300]

what about the game pass game on the internet and what is the rate of the game

[@101Crock]

@@daymi7300 Wtf are you talking about? How does this have anything to do with what was being talked about?

[@gooseofwar5711]

Ironic, in trying to create the perfect character,they did more harm then good.

[@eng3d]

Superman vs Batman images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/3bc2c100-b7d0-476c-bb5e-fcd08f4d5762/d1szbfe-b2927d00-eccd-4793-aaea-6cddc895a6ba.jpg

[@SvanVosianMusic]

If the most important/interesting thing about a character is their gender, then the character is bound to be doomed.

[@KutWrite]

...and you know that next, sexual "orientation" will be their focus.

[@StevenGrace]

@@KutWrite please be attack helicopter gender.

[@jacobfaro794]

Unless it's about the last person if said gender. Even then, they need an arc.

[@Lilitha11]

The most interesting thing isn't her gender. He character could actually be male and there wouldn't be any real change to the story.

[@syrupmadscience3019]

@@Lilitha11 Agreed. it would still be shit and people would still hate it.

[@rhondahoward8025]

Let's look at great and beloved female characters in media: Toph, Katara, and Azula in Avatar the Last Airbender Bubbles, Blossom, and Buttercup in The Powerpuff Girls Riza, Izumi, Olivia, and Winry in Fullmetal Alchemist Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill Sarah Connor in The Terminator Clementine in Telltale's The Walking Dead Elle in The Last of Us

[@d1sk-cord531]

You forgot Ripley from Alien.

[@rhondahoward8025]

•D1Sk - CORD• Of course!

[@mattgassenheimer]

Samus Aran in Metroid Natasha Romanoff in Marvel Pam, Angela, and Phyllis in The Office Leslie Knope in Parks and Recreation Fiona in Shrek

[@LukeSkywalker-fm1dc]

Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Bastila Shan, Meetra Surik, Kreia, Tahiri Veila, Tenel Ka, and many others in Star Wars Legends/old Extended Universe Arcee, Miko in Transformers Prime Carolina, CT, Tex, Kimball, Dr. Grey, Sister in Red vs Blue Trinity, Oracle, Niobe in Matrix Elizabeth Swann/Turner, Anamaria, Tia Dalma in Pirates of the Caribbean Lara Croft in Tomb Raider

[@frozenlizard3370]

Aqua from kingdom hearts. Makoto Nijima from Persona 5. Lilith from Borderlands.

[@FlumenSanctiViti]

The character of Rey would have failed even if created as a male character. As well, character of Ripley would be a success if went as a male character. Gender doesn't have anything to do here, but bad character creation and bad scripting do.

[@FlankerB3]

Exactly!

[@kevinyo1169]

FlumenSanctiViti My point exactly

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

I think Ripley was even more sympathetic as a female character because her gender/sex wasn't shoved down our throat. She was smart, competent (pretty clearly the most competent character on the ship), level-headed, but also feminine and vulnerable. Basically all qualities that are the best in women generally. Certainly a stronger male in her shoes would have handled the situation differently, but the story probably would have been boring. Dallas was potentially that stronger male, but he made the utterly unforgivable decision to let Kane on board with the facehugger on him. From that moment forward, it was clear that Ripley was a smarter and stronger character in all the ways that counted. I agree that both genders can be written to be heroes, but they need to correspond to some core reality about our species. Super powers and hero stories ought not try to cancel the real differences between men and women for political reasons. If a character has super powers, they automatically lose their humanity in some ways. That's why the force in the original trilogy was so effective; it could be used for good or evil, and for the most part it wasn't like being a super-hero as much as a very specialized ninja. Rey's Mary Sue character broke all those conventions on the cheap for feminist ideology. Hollywood was never a great source for deep understanding of human nature, but they usually got the broad strokes right in films that went on to become classics. The new trilogy will only be mocked and used as an example of failure, and represents how deeply bankrupt Hollywood has become due to total corruption of art by both business and political interests.

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

@Emptybell y Well put.

[@Aaron-io8vw]

Best thing they did in the original alien was that there was no indication of the characters genders or races in the script. They cast the best person for the role regardless, that is also why no character has a first name except ash in film, they are all revered to by surnames, we do not learn people's first name till the sequel.

[@Wolfman7870]

SJW strong female character rule book: 1. She can have no male love interest. 2 . She must never be rescued and should always protest being rescued or assisted especially by male characters. 3. If she is struck especially by male character, she instantly recovers and promptly strikes back her attacker. 4. She's virtuous to a fault even to her own detriment. 5. She's extremely adept at all she does without explanation. 6. She has immense powers which are not developed over time, but instead tapped into at a crucial moment in the story. 7. She must never be mocked or made light of in the narrative. 8. She is instantly liked by established characters. 9. She must always get in the last word and always has the upper hand in all verbal exchanges usually in the form of a quip. 10. Generally leaves all violent altercations without a scratch.

[@gnilretssetab7380]

Excuse me good people this is a Mary Sue lol

[@thatrandomcrit5823]

@Calvert How are those applicable to all the Jedi's? Please, explain.

[@thatrandomcrit5823]

@Calvert I could ask you the same. But yea, all of them, and the animated series too.

[@thatrandomcrit5823]

@Calvert Yeah

[@jxsilicon9]

@Calvert BS! Anakin and Luke were injured,screwed up,etc. She is just perfect in everything.

[@thebighurt2495]

Characters shouldn't be written to be "the Girl" or "the Black dude." They should be defined by their personalities and the roles they take in the story.

[@kingj521]

*Cough* all of one piece *cough*

[@SantanicoDiabolical]

even when a character is just a girl or just not white, it is not their defining characteristic, people still complain about "pandering to minorities" or "feminist agenda". It is more complex than you seem to think it is.

[@a-drewg1716]

​@@SantanicoDiabolical People complain if the persons race or gender gets specifically pointed out as a big thing and while sometimes the complaints are uncalled for, most of the time it makes sense. I mean again for alot of good female characters most people don't give a shit or like with Wonder Women, sure people complained at first as the trailers made her gender seem to be a important feature of the movie but once the movie actually came out, instead there was praise of it being a good movie (and the annoying praise of people specifically praising the fact that MC was female)

[@tintinismybelgian]

Exactly. Lando in TESB was the friend who betrayed his friends (for what he thought were good reasons), but then realized his mistake and managed to correct it. He was not "the black dude."

[@andrewlyon4495]

You can't really say Rey was written as "the girl" in a story a context, as essentially there is nothing in the story that requires her to be a female.

[@flowerthencrranger3854]

Disney: Let’s make a symbol for women My female cousins: We hate Rey.

[@asu_meii]

Me: a female: I hate rey

[@faex1467]

Me a boy: I love KotOR because the characters are strong, but not op

[@saivinayakdaya4648]

Wise words from Revan

[@cheshirekat8273]

Me, also female: I hate Rey

[@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942]

Me: Also a female: I also don't like Ray at all.

[@KnownAsBilal]

You know as bad as the situation is, at least Daisey Ridley isnt such an unlikable cocky person as Brie Larson

[@alejandrojoserodriguezarre45]

Daisey is pure sugar, all the new actors are great actors, it's the writers who are fucking it up

[@Gamelover254]

Oh no not at all. I love Daisy! She openly said that people are allowed to hate what they want. Brie Larson is annoying. If you ask her a simple question she’ll feel it’s an attack on herself.

[@tlibrary2741]

Imo, the writers messed up both Kylo Ren and Rey. Such potential in both characters ruined!

[@user-fo1ow1jq3b]

@@tlibrary2741 wrong genders

[@MrRaphaelLippi]

@@tlibrary2741 messed up Kylo? How?

[@TheWarchiefZekeJaeger]

At this point, Kylo Ren is more relatable and interesting than Rey, the guy comes from a legendary line of of Jedis yet nothing was served in a plate to him, he trained hard yet isn't a unbeatable foe and still can be defeated, he has a inner struggle and it could lead to great plot lines, his past is more interesting, his knights are a interesting piece of lore, he has a unique weapon, and he also has more room for improvement in both personality and power. It has been gotten even more interesting since he is now the Supreme Leader, the paths they can go with it could lead to really interesting plots, what if he become a rough but fair leader? Would he still be considered a "villian"?

[@bigmeknurgle]

I agree with you on every point made, it's just a shame that with the irl or in-universe deaths of the three main leads coupled with JJ and Ryans aloof, spiteful social media posts of "it's too smart for you" or "it wasn't made for you", most peoples desire to see a film that interesting has long since ebbed away. Fuck Disney.

[@kalletunnellinen6863]

Nice to see you here.

[@bigmeknurgle]

​_Mada ka na?_

[@sinistar99]

Struggling on her own in a hostile desert kit bashing scraps to survive since she was 6 = "served on a plate?" Huh? Also paralized and utterly helpless against Kylo in TFA = "unbeatable?" Did you actually watch the movies? It's not "Disney" it's you.

[@kalletunnellinen6863]

@@sinistar99 Well she kicked his ass twice after that and the last jedi just showcases how big of a mary sue she is.

[@ottovonskidmark629]

Kylo Ren is such a wasted villain. He could have been a contender !

[@robertmaxwell6065]

great quote

[@LegoManiac_101]

Otto Von Skidmark I fucking hate Crylo Ran, Emos don’t make good villains/characters.

[@IgorSalaj3578]

@@LegoManiac_101 Same. I hate Kylo Ren too. And his line "Let the past die, kill it, if you have to" is the worst line of all time ever

[@tigerboy977]

@@IgorSalaj3578 hate kylo too but that is what makes for a good villain a antagonist that you would love to not exist or not kill your favorite character. (Still crying)

[@uwu-nr9mh]

I love that dude

[@Daemonussy]

disney just made the new sequel trilogy for money, they aren’t canon

[@mattgassenheimer]

They didn’t make the trilogy for money, Disney had more than enough. They made it to spread an agenda, which is arguably worse.

[@Doctor_Straing_Strange]

Matt Gassenheimer nah, it's money. The agenda is only a facade to pander to the masses. A decision by Kathleen Kennedy, SHE has an agenda, not Disney, Disney has enough money but they don't see it as such, this was for money

[@mattgassenheimer]

Doctor straing Strange Disney did not force the feminist agenda in for money. Disney owns one of, if not, the largest multimedia franchises of all time. The Star Wars brand is even worth more than most companies! Disney knows Star Wars is a cashcow, and they know anything Star Wars related will make billions. That’s why they released The Mandalorian with Disney+, because they knew a Star Wars show would give them quite a bit of subscribers. So yes, they technically did make the new trilogy for money, but they knew they were making dough already, so they took the opportunity to let their creative producer, Kathleen Kennedy, spread her political agenda. So what did she do? She made everything about a Mary Sue and her entourage of simps. Even the main villain was a simp! They also tarnished the legacy of the original trilogy characters by using them as plot objects, waiting to be killed off. And worst of all, not only were the movies pretty political, but not good either. And they still made billions.

[@Innersanctum_]

Yeah they are

[@spinnenente]

tbh i think only episode 4-6 are canon. The prequels are shoddily made excuses for gfx and the sequels are a vehicle for a feminist sjw mary sue self insert which destroyed everything that the ot did.

[@jorgecorea7528]

Rey and capt. Marvel are disliked. Feminist: "mEn hATe stROnG WOmeN" B... But everyone loved Alita...

[@mariogonzalez4928]

Jorge Corea No

[@davidking6242]

@@mariogonzalez4928 was jorge wrong?

[@SashaSlvt]

kwadwo baidoo people that pretend their morally right yet massive pedophiles on twitter went batshit crazy on alita.. not massively crazy but they fuckin suck

[@Kesiif]

I haven't seen marvel. Rey is more of a player place holder than a character.

[@ritto1463]

Yep!

[@MetaGiga]

As a woman myself, I hate Rey. I hate her so much. She’s too perfect and seems like someone took a bad fan fiction character and decided she would be perfect for a new main character.

[@wizar6712]

She’s the definition of a Mary Sue Mary Sue was originally a fan fiction character for Star Trek

[@MrHunglikemule]

Rey is uninteresting, for a "nobody" she sure is the single most powerful thing in the galaxy :/

[@snapdragon9300]

That's the point I think most true fans of the genre are trying to make, gender is irrelevant, there are plenty of well written female hero examples in movies and comics. Reys character and the new films forget those examples of what makes a character and movie great.

[@doublehelix6474]

She's so perfect that she's boring. Nothing that she does is interesting

[@tastyloaf5487]

To quote "A Trekkie's Tale" - the story that gave us the term "Mary Sue" : _In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise_ *THAT'S HOW I THINK THEY WROTE REY.* (I'm also a woman and I DESPISE the fact that feminists WANT WOMEN TO ACT LIKE MEN --- that is their warped idea of "strong character" Pah! Bull-shite.)

[@megatronacepticon]

Strong female characters have been a thing in Star Wars since 1977. Leia basically led the escape of the Death Star and didn't take any crap from Han or even Tarkin, one of the most intimidating men in the galaxy at the time. Despite Leia seemingly ticking most of the boxes for a 'female asserts dominance over male, what is this feminist rubbish' argument I have never once seen anyone attempt to make one because Leia has always been a strong believable character who just happens to be female. Before the Sequel Trilogy her dialogue and actions never stood out as being unnatural to the scene so nobody has ever felt the need to pick her apart or look for underlying feminist subtext, as opposed to Rey who can seemingly do anything right first time with zero issues, from making Prequel Yoda look like a lightsaber novice while having 0 experience or training to telling Han and Chewie how to repair their own ship 30 minutes after setting eyes on it for the first time in her life nothing she does feels believable or earned. Despite the variety of cool scenes in The Force Awakens I was genuinely bored long before the end because there were just no stakes at all. Audiences connect with characters by seeing their struggles and wanting to see them overcome those struggles, but if there are no struggles then what is there to get invested in? It wasn't just Rey that I struggled to connect with, Finn was treated no better. Despite his character getting off to a promising start they promptly threw it all out the window by showing him firing a TIE Fighter point blank into a crowd of his fellow stormtroopers barely 2 scenes after literally having a panic attack because he saw one of them die. How is that believable character-progression? I'm getting off topic, but the main point is that people don't dislike Rey for being a female, they dislike her for being basically a non-character who takes all the excitement out of the film by showing the audience that no matter what happens she'll magically pull something out of thin air to instantly fix the problem.

[@ShadowSonic2]

No one complained about Leia because she wasn't the lead. Rey IS the lead so she gets crapped on more.

[@Vivigreeny25]

@@ShadowSonic2 No, people don't crap on Leia because she isnt there to be the "sTrOnG fEmAlE cHaRaCtEr". Leia isn't cool and "strong" because she's a PeRfEcT character. And Leia WAS a lead character. She was one of the MAIN THREE!!! (or 4 if you count chewie, but I'm focussing on humans, or people that speak English XD) Leias purposes wasn't the "girl"! She was a leader! Boy or girl, leia would still be loved! Also, sorry for the rant XD

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@Vivigreeny25 "No, people don't crap on Leia because she isnt there to be the "sTrOnG fEmAlE cHaRaCtEr". Leia isn't cool and "strong" because she's a PeRfEcT character." Yeah, she doesn't get crapped on because she's not the lead. She's secondary. Rey IS the lead, and thus is crapped on. "Leias purposes wasn't the "girl"! She was a leader!" Over the three movies, that's what she devolved into.

[@Vivigreeny25]

@@ShadowSonic2 Honestly, I'm not going to argue back because people hate me and I'd loose and also I don't feel like actually putting effort into thinking of a come back XD, but I will say, this video explains it, she is a character for real life, a failed "idol". (I say failed because half the fan base hates her XD) I just think that, while I know leia isnt perfect as a character (as in story), if Rey is the lead, she should be treated as such, and be done WELL. Leafgreen 25 has left the chat because she nows this will only escalate XD

[@ShadowSonic2]

@Take My Breath Away!!! Leading ladies get way more crap than secondary women.

[@themanicman8458]

We don't need more strong female characters we need well written characters who just so happen to be strong and female

[@jaxthewolf4572]

Yes

[@MisteMiner]

Maybe we don't want strong characters at all...maybe we want flawed and weak characters, then they can..ya know, have an arc.

[@foxboy6145]

Salmon, I think you missed the point entirely.

[@foxboy6145]

@Salmon I think what the person is saying is that, in order for a character to grow, they have to start out weak. And even if they ARE strong, then they have to fight someone stronger. That, or they just want a character to actually HAVE flaws, because real people are like that. We can't have them all being flawless. It takes away any believability.

[@kenno20081]

@Salmon Rey had as much dept as Larson's rear.

[@kenno20081]

@vidocq Except even he wanted to face stronger opponents and not every one he hit went down with just one punch. Hell that fly nearly kicked his ass.

[@nicosc2184]

@Salmon A character with weaknesss isnt a "weak" character. A truly strong character is one that despite his weaknesses and flaws pulls through and becomes stronger for it. As Ned Stark said (paraphrasing) you can only be brave when you are afraid.

[@oneawaymule]

Back in the day Formula: Make a Good Movie. Today's Formula : Ideology on Top. Pretend it's a movie.

[@liliantan2379]

Tomorrow movie is just earn money

[@rouvencocker]

You forgot, if fans question it, can them names.

[@rubbers3]

RAY IS AN ICONIC CHARACTER. She's an icon of bad character development.

[@bungalowfeuhler1541]

Development? She starts perfect and remains that way.

[@simeonb3726]

@@bungalowfeuhler1541 I assume the OP is talking about the 10 mins of 'development' that the writers spent discussing how they would solve the issue of how it's and you can't have a woman (or other inter-sectional) trained/learn under a white male lead, by having her be a 'total natural'...

[@FD2003Abc]

@rubber/Bungalow -- be careful: rey may wish you into the cornfield.

[@engineerskalinera]

*rey

[@MrTBSC]

... you could have used caps more inteligently by applying it just to "is" ..

[@insertnamehere2462]

I find it funny how they made a character so innately flawed that people started using a term I've only heard be used for shitty deviant art oc's

[@insertnamehere2462]

@Mystical Luna Melody yes correct that was the term I was thinking of

[@grif419]

@@insertnamehere2462 *MaRey Sue

[@insertnamehere2462]

@@grif419 become the dirt I walk on

[@grif419]

@@insertnamehere2462 k bro

[@insertnamehere2462]

@@grif419 lit

[@ecupcakes2735]

i hate this devolving of women characters, it makes me so sad. Grew up in 80s and 90s filled with plenty of diverse stories of strength, courage, love and perseverance played by women of all kinds from all walks of life. Ariel, Pocahantas, Mulan, Nausicaa, Kiki, Ripley, Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, Dana Scully, Lara Croft, Motoko Kusanagi, Princess Mononoke, Lois Lane, Trinity, Elaine Benes, Olivia Bensen, Xena, Charmed, Mary Poppins, Legally Blonde's Elle Woods..there are so many well written characters. A women is never perfect, but it is their flaws and their journey through struggle that makes us love a character. Don't just write a character to prove a point or sell it for profit. Write them because you love them unconditionally. Write them because they are flawed, just like we all are.

[@ellyqueen8504]

eCupcake s This isn't about your feelings you know

[@leventedeli3701]

@@ellyqueen8504 This is about our feelings

[@ellyqueen8504]

@@leventedeli3701 No, this is about marketing. Why not make Mary Sues if most women love them considering that women make up 80% of the consumerist purchases? Guinea pigs are useful for corporations to survive and prosper.

[@eddiewalpole]

I've never seen Motoko Kusanagi, Marry Poppins and Xena in the same list. But I agree with your point.

[@NspPrick]

Wow, those names certainly brought back some nostalgic feelings. Live Action Mulan 2020. :3

[@IronSquid501]

"There aren't any good, strong female characters in Star Wars" I'm sure Carrie Fisher and Natalie Portman were real happy to hear that after basically building their career on it

[@keonejones7283]

IronSquid501 they’re very important but not strong

[@antonellamR2D2]

I agree. Leia is the strong, smart and she became a leader. Han's arc in the original movies is tied with their relationship as comrades and lovers. Too bad they turn jedis into monks, afterwards. The bloodline theme was forgotten in favor of midiclorian, only to have a "forbidden", boring love story.

[@TomAndersonDH]

I think those two are pretty good female characters, but I also don't think he meant the original george lucas star wars. I think he meant the newest star wars films. I could be wrong.

[@ZeroWolf51]

I'd argue that not only did the Prequels nearly ruin Natalie Portman's career, but they also devolved Padme's character over the course of the Prequel Trilogy.

[@diamondheadify-v5i]

Ohh no you really dont wanna mess with Natalie Portman... kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqHaqK2Aq7aHgK8

[@komrade223]

My father was a wildland firefighter for the US forest service for 18 years. Towards the end of his USFS career, he had a woman assigned to his hotshot crew. My dad never lowered the standards for her, she pulled her weight or more. After my dad's passing, that woman wrote our family a letter. She thanked my dad for proving to her that she could do it, she went on to have a long career in the Forest Service. What I'm trying to get across from this, is that women don't need a lower standard. We can hold them to the same standard we hold men to. That extends to everything. Having a vagina isn't a get out of jail free card, being the first women to attempt something doesn't mean the kid gloves need to be on. But people like Kennedy don't want to work hard. They want instant success and will cry and moan when expected to do as well as anyone else.

[@monkeynumbernine]

Thanks for sharing how your dad did his job and helped someone to excel at their job. I have worked for years in 'male' jobs. Nobody tiptoed around me or expected anything less than the job required. That enabled me to do what my co-workers did- no matter what it was.

[@mehmetcelik-td8bm]

ok but every man character has flows but if a woman character has some flows its bad they say why? men are not the image of perfection. men have flow so women shoul also have flows especially emotionally. But NO woman must be perfect or else bad. women must have everything served in a silver plate like in the avatar korra. is this right?

[@janehutchins3746]

So great! I am a Wildland Firefighter and my boss has my utmost respect BECAUSE he never takes it easy on me or gives me preferential treatment. At the end of the day, the wildfire doesn’t care if I’m a woman or not, right? Good on your dad 😊

[@komrade223]

@@janehutchins3746 Stay safe out there Hotshot!

[@TheMightyDM]

I wish I could say the same for the military. There are markedly lower standards for women as a whole and it shows. We are unfortunately saturated with sub-par personnel because of it. Don't get me wrong, many of them can perform to or above the standard of many men, but there are too many who barely even uphold their own LOWERED standards and the rest of us suffer for it. Kudos to your dad, that's how it should be handled. Too many people seem to forget that equal rights and equal treatment also means equal responsibilities and equal expectations.

[@zjaeriqsanders1731]

“Whenever someone brings up breaking gender roles, it only serves to undermine gender equality by implying that this is the exception and not the status quo”- Knuckles. Yes, that Knuckles

[@zjaeriqsanders1731]

@Verserer Gred you right, fixed

[@harrisonstallings4522]

This is gold. Somebody pin this! 🤣🤣 In all seriousness, he’s completely right

[@sinwithagrin4243]

I'm not gonna lie i enjoyed the show i saw a few episodes with my niece

[@jonathanbradley4896]

The main problem I have with Rey is that she is simply not relatable. Look at Luke Skywalker, he was a simple farm boy with a good heart that had no idea what was going on at first. Sure, he was a gifted pilot (who actually had experience flying small craft with his buddies on Tattooine) and had massive latent force potential, but he felt like a real person who was swept up in a wild adventure. He failed numerous times throughout his Journey, he failed to save his Uncle and Aunt, he failed to save Obi Wan, he failed in his training with Yoda, he failed miserably to save all his friends (Han got frozen) and got his ass kicked by Vader. These failures made him feel like a real person that we could root for and relate to. Why do you think that the most popular superheroes are the ones like Wolverine and Batman? It's because their flaws make them relatable, they feel like REAL people who have exceptional qualities and find the courage to do the right thing. How does ANYONE relate to Rey? Maybe if you're like an Orphan that never knew their parents maybe? That's really all I got that could be relatable in her character.

[@Xeonaa]

@DanRage47 She was a poorly executed fictional character. What are you ranting about?

[@criptideancia]

And in a SW book (MAYBE SPOILER) Luke had a small romantic relationship with Nakari until she dies in front of him

[@vinayn9110]

I found Rey boring.

[@nought3060]

I'm guessing she's not even relatable to orphans. As I understand it they dream that their real parents are great people that was forced by circumstance to give up their child, and that they will come back for it one day. Or at the very least that they are decent people in an imperfect world. Reys parents are shown to be scum that nobody would want to be blood related to.

[@emberguard5009]

Yeah I don't see orphans relating either. But not because of what her parents are so much the OPness of Rey herself. No orphan is able to go out on her own and get a near perfect success rate against the biggest most difficult aspects of whatever success would look like. Even less so after Kylo is supposed to get more training..... and the orphan hasn't had anything more then a pep talk of "The Jedis ways suck, forget about it"

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

The utter Tragedy of Rey's character (for me at least) is just how much potential she had. Her introduction on Jakku was so perfect, and if great scenes like that were part of Rey's story she could have indeed been such a beloved character within the Fandom and the Star Wars universe. It just saddens me that because her character was so mishandled and badly written that she will probably forever be a prime example of how *not* to write female characters for aspiring Writers like me. It's such a darn shame to me. :(

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

@@reylosolo True. But she only has one more film to redeem her character. So I wonder how they will even do it, but we will just have to wait and see! :)

[@derrickwoods1595]

@@reylosolo Luke's character was being developed for three movies. Rey had ten minutes in the first, zero in the second and I doubt a third movie will fully flesh out her character

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

@@reylosolo He was only like that for about ten to fifteen minutes on A New Hope. After his aunt and uncle died he stopped whining so much.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

The scene with her in her little house thing did a really good job of wordlessly building her character - component and resourceful, but still just a lonely little kid on the inside - and then as soon as the plot started they chucked that out the window.

[@erickpuma1202]

@@reylosolo Luke was a simply farmer kid, who through trials and tribulations evolved over time into a Hero. That's what is compelling about the character, he didn't get everything handed to him. On the contrary Rey did more than OK in the first film and by the second (which was only a couple of weeks later, in universe time) was besting Luke, killing elite guards, lining up tie fighter 'one shot multi kills' , like a pro. Oh and, lifting several boulders without breaking a sweat. All with zero training, unless you count the playing around with the Saber by herself, as actual training... What could they even do with her character now to make her compelling at this point in the trilogy?

[@jacquesalan1905]

Ahsoka failed frequently in the Clone Wars show, and she is one of my favorite characters. Weird. How could someone possibly be flawed but likable?

[@DeadlyAlienInvader]

JacquesAlan why is it that most people can’t stand others for being stupid or for making mistakes yet, they would complain about perfect characters in fiction?

[@Phoenixdown37]

@@DeadlyAlienInvader Because there's a difference between being inept and just flawed? Someone can still be competent and make mistakes. It's what makes them human and relatable. Someone who's perfect in every way in fiction is hated because a lack of flaws, and just don't seem human at all.

[@DeadlyAlienInvader]

Magma Beast yet, people can’t stand humanity.

[@DeadlyAlienInvader]

Magma Beast if it’s a fictional character, he or she is relatable. If it’s a coworker who’s trying her/his best under stressful conditions or has a different world view; he/she is a stupid, worthless, pathetic, idiotic, space consuming, piece of shit!

[@khosrowzare8301]

@@@DeadlyAlienInvader Even highly competent and trained people fail sometimes. No one has a 100% success ratio in real life and people don't hate them for it (unless they are failures themselves and are just waiting at the side for the successful ones to fail just once). However, there is a difference between a guy who knows what he/she is doing failing sometimes due to whatever reason and some idiot with a large ego and small brain taking a shit over everyone else's efforts every single time. Plus calling someone stupid for making a stupid mistake doesn't mean they are not competent. When my boss, despite having a Masters' degree in chemistry, poured some dangerous chemical (HF, if you must know) on his hands with no protection and had to get medical treatment for months, I just laughed at him because he should have fucking known better. He's not stupid but he DID make a stupid mistake.

[@eveninglog2713]

The problem with Rey is that her personality is "girl"

[@mreverything7056]

Well, more like “strong-independent woman”, which actually means overpowered and non-dynamic woman character.

[@elliejf]

Rey as a character isn't really about being a girl like Captain Marvel's is, it's just that outside of the story the executives and producers made her being a woman important.

[@ryapowa]

The problen with Rey is the fact that when she's around, everyone around her with more training suddenly become incompetent (Finn, Kylo, etc). Either that or she's so awesome, she's able to edit out a guard's weapon before he's able to kill her with it.

[@Jsa460]

That, and because they were so hung up on the "strong" part, they became afraid to write her as a "real" and interesting character that would actually have the potential to make mistakes or need to learn like anyone else to become good at what she was doing. I thought child Anaken character in the prequels was bad, but Rey's outclassed him in the Mary Sue department.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@ryapowa Could you imagine if she actually got stabbed with that weapon and had to fight on? In a decently written story, she'd be struggling more, keeping the tension going. In the poorly written mess that is the new trilogy, she would've somehow gotten *stronger* from it.

[@dougstephens1979]

"Rey is the hero without the journey, but it's the journey (overcoming obstacles, failure, and learning and growing) that makes the hero." - Ivan Ortega

[@calebpeterson3117]

what is frodo's character arc? spock? k2so? nick fury? alan grant? Ian malcolm? any of the magnificent seven? a character can be great without changing everything they are within a movie or two

[@lpcairns02]

Caleb Peterson they don’t change everything about how they are- they simply change to their new experiences and as a hero they react to these experiences the better for it instead of like a villain- worse off.

[@lpcairns02]

Caleb Peterson Ian Malcolm was comic relief, Alan grant grew to like the kids, nick fury- just watch winter soldier, magificent seven- sniper dude came back, Denzel overcomes his past with the villain, and the others have similar stories of overcoming their pasts, haven’t watched Star Trek so I don’t about Spock, and Frodo’s life is completely changed and he is completely changed as a character he is so different from his beginning self that he literally leaves middle earth as he no longer belongs there- his scar from weathertop is a physical manifestation of this and how he has changed

[@calebpeterson3117]

@@lpcairns02 and Rey is the same exact character as she starts out as?

[@DundG]

@@calebpeterson3117 Frodo changed a Lot. He was innocent in the beginning and broken by the Ring in the end

[@xavierbreath2227]

The problem with Rey is the writing. Not her gender. The fact that she is a total Mary Sue is a matter of poor character arc. Which is the fault of the writer.

[@shadowxneo]

which is what EVERYONE is saying. i HATE rey. she could have been sooooo good. and daisy ridley is great! but, nope. gotta be a 'STRONG FEMALE' so lets make her a mary sue. zzzzzzzzzzz.

[@psychosociety7910]

Legit swap the gender of Luke and Rey, and they would find that the opinions wouldn't' change one bit. It's the poor character arcs, the nonsensical story arcs and the ham fisted narratives they push that has turned off many fans and future fans as well. It was their ideological goggles that blind them from seeing where the audiences/critics were coming from. Nope, they have to be demonized, there is NO way we could have missed the mark, Rey is perfect.... *facepalm* yes you morons, she is, THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!!

[@michaelnally2841]

Well I personally don’t hate Rey as a character but I admit she could be better. I honestly though never found Luke in the OT interesting. Yeah he grows and learns but that’s one thing, personality is another. But I feel that that’s the problem with all Star wats protagonists to an extent. I mean think about it. Anakin Skywalker, Luke, Gyn Erso, and Rey. All of which I feel aren’t that interesting or well written characters..

[@SwimmingRobot]

@@michaelnally2841 I agree. I found Luke way more interesting in TLJ than the OT because he actually had flaws

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

SwimmingRobot Luke got his ass kicked twice in the original trilogy once by Darth Vader and twice by the Emperor, and Luke would have died twice if Anakin didn't care so much about his son.

[@worldwideinterests1]

I guarantee that Leia, an actual good female character will be remembered and loved for decades to come. Rey will largely be forgotten. (Not unlike this ill-conceived trilogy.)

[@criticalthinking4090]

Rey who???

[@LeutnantJoker]

I love how most people who argue Star Wars had no strong female characters forget that the leader of the entire Rebellion was a woman :D In the first movie it was clearly Leia being one of the leaders and in Jedi Mon Mothma was revealed, who remained the leader and later the chancellor of the new republic for ages in the EU, only to be replaced by Leia, yet again a woman. So the leader of the "good side" has been a woman for the entire original history of Star Wars. And the most awesome addition by the EU was always mara Jade, a character people couldn't get enough of. But yeah, we had no strong women huh.

[@TheMoose126]

But you dont push an agenda that way

[@jayzenstyle]

@@LeutnantJoker hell yeah, you don't even need to be strong to be a great role model to women. The brains behind the operation that topple down the enemy...

[@jacobwells9207]

Short answer: Yes, as have ALL Mary Sues. Mary Sues are inherently weak characters, they can't ever be strong

[@razkable]

you know your mary sue badass female is trash when in a fight series she sucks at fighting ...

[@Perzyn]

I think Rey fails even as the strong female character the studio wanted her to be. She comes as privilaged rather than strong, because during both films she never has to actually overcome an obstacle. Everything that happens works out for her and she easily gets through whatever stands in her way. Captured and strapped to a torture device? She mind controls some storm troopers and frees herself. Easily. Cornered by a trained sith? She wins a lightsaber fight. Easily. In a room full of hostile pretorians? They will miss on purpose, to make it easy for her. Tie fighters? They'll line up so she can get three in one shot. She never has a real low point, which she'd need any kind of strenght to get herself out of. Instead she is always given the needed out on a silver platter by authorial fiat. Calling Rey an icon of female empowerment is like calling an heiress to a business empire a self-made woman.

[@adamgtrap]

In my opinion, you make a good point.

[@Perzyn]

@future flash The closest thing to the low point that she has was during her training with Luke. But even then she didn't succeed through any real effort of her own. The most kind interpretation that I can offer is that she has shown to possess perserverance in the face of adversity. But the way the whole sequence was shot makes such intepretation difficult, since it can be just as easily, if not easier, argued that she just whined at Luke untill he gave up. Not to mention that compared to Luke's training with Yoda the whole sequence lacked any sort of lesson that Rey have learned. She didn't get warned about dark side, she didn't understand Force in a new way. She just had a trippy vision without much bearing on her character arc.

[@SuperPrettyPink101]

So Rey is Kylie Jenner?

[@irrevenant3]

IMO the issue here mostly isn't Rey specifically but how they've written the Force in the new trilogy in general. It now seems to be almost entirely a matter of raw talent/power rather than skill. Everyone from Rey to Leia to "broom boy" are casually using power and skill levels in the Force that we've previously seen to require significant training to achieve. It's quite jarring.

[@Perzyn]

@@irrevenant3 That is true, to an extent. But we also run into the egg and chicken question here. Is a Rey failed character because the writers bungled the Force, or is the Force bungled to prop up Rey as a character? She easily excels in pretty much everything she puts her hand to. She apparently knows her way around Falcon better than Han, she can just understand Chewie after seeing a Wookie for the first time, she is a great shot and perfect pilot... And for all that she lacks any kind of driving motivation. Compare her with Furiosa from Mad Max Fury Road. By no means a best written character (or even the strongest female character in the movie). She is a badass from a get go, but she has some understandable goals, she has an arc in regards to teaming up with Max and she has a low point when she learns the Green Place is no more. She also doesn't resolve any and all conflicts just by her presence - she has a part in the action scenes and there are areas where she is the most competent one (sniping), but there is still amount of struggle and cooperation and some stuff she tries doesn't work. And hey, people loved Fury Road and no one but fringe complained about Furiosa... It's almost as if a well written character doesn't need a crutch of ideology to stand on their own.

[@melvinch]

Watching a movie about a woman who's good at everything without any struggle throughout three movies is no different from watching paint dry.

[@WashuHakubi4]

Well, at least when the paint is dry, you actually end up with something useful, and potentially attractive.

[@diegocorona2065]

Watching a movie about a character without struggle independently of the gender is boring

[@Arkain89]

@@WashuHakubi4 really, when you think of paintings, the first adjectives that come to your mind is "useful" and "attractive"? let's just not touch the fact that you're comparing that to women, I don't think that kind of cringe could be handled

[@Skullbrothers]

@@Arkain89 it could be a fence. A fence can be attractive and useful....

[@sinistar99]

James Bond is good at everything and zero struggle for 26 movies. Oh you said woman. Sorry yeah when its a woman, thats bad.

[@judythepunk461]

"Hello i'm rey and i'm strong because i'm a woman"

[@mkaplan1383]

Hey Rey, if you're so strong and can take out both Kylo & Snoke whose the next evil politician in Galaxy you'll kill? Donald Trump? I hear he likes them tough and cheap.

[@TomAndersonDH]

@@mkaplan1383 Donald Trump hasn't lost once yet, not a person Id want as an enemy even if I was a mary sue character

[@Jawa88889]

Whos this on your Profile pic

[@VVeremoose]

@Un-broken and victorious as much as I hated TLoK, that scene was awesome and Korra is actually a decent character. (Too bad she's the only one in the series)

[@cindymananzalamartinez6679]

youre not just a woman....youre a woman warrior hero

[@josephthompson2670]

The lord of the rings has strong female characters and it was a great movie

[@nightgazer5780]

Joseph Thompson I mean, I like Lord of the Rings and all, but I can think of two female characters in that entire series

[@josephthompson2670]

@@nightgazer5780 have u seen or read the return of the king? There are many instances where woman were the key to the story

[@nightgazer5780]

@@josephthompson2670 I have, although I confess it was a while ago. But I really don't remember there being a real female influence other than Galadriel

[@CC-mc9mt]

@@nightgazer5780 Eowyn defends her uncle Theoden and kills the witch king of Angmar. That scene gives me goosebumps every time I read or watch it. Arwen is also strong, but in a different way.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

@@nightgazer5780 Read the Silmarillion. Luthien Tinuviel is one of the most amazing characters Tolkien ever wrote, and inspires a huge number of stories in LOTR, as well as being Aragorn and Elrond's many, *many* time removed great grandmother in the first case. Numenor would simply not have existed without her. Though its tough to find a large number of female characters in Tolkien's work, sure, I'd argue that's more a product of the time when he wrote them rather than any animus. Each female character he did write had a very big impact on either individual characters or the plot as a whole.

[@lambs5258]

Something I loved about Ripley is that she was so amazing without there being a try-hard attempt at making her so. It just came naturally through good writing. She's badass, and it works so well because she's believable. The writers didn't bend over backwards to make her """strong.""" I was so disappointed with Rey. It was the complete opposite story with her. Throughout the entire first movie I got those horrible try-hard vibes of THIS IS A STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER. Her character was annoying, flat as a pancake and unremarkable. She's a perfect example of a mary sue. I think it's good to have female main characters and characters of other races, because representation is important. But when trying to vary representation is the only thing that matters in the character, it's just insulting and a recipe for a terrible character.

[@deathwish-fs1ib]

I think one of the reasons that Ripley turned out so great is that originally she wasn't even written as a woman, when approaching a character's design it helps to take things like gender, race, sexuality and not make them the key points of that character and perhaps not even look at them at all until you have the rest of the concept finished. Look at what you have and see if they work on personality alone before deciding their gender or anything else. It does also help in regards to Ripley that we get to see her grow and become badass, in Alien she was just another civilian trapped on a ship with a monstrous creature that none of the crew knew how to stop, she struggled, she was terrified and in the end survived by the skin of her teeth only to find out it was all for nothing as she never made it back home to her daughter. In Aliens she initially doesn't even plan on going back to the planet until she comes to the conclusion that the only way to deal with her trauma is to face it head on and even then its shown that the marines are much more capable than her which makes her final actions in the movie that much more badass. We don't get any of that with Rey, she's straight away shown as exceptionally capable and from the start was added specifically to be a strong female lead and not just a strong lead. To be honest a lot of their decisions come across as kind of weird to me, like the introduction of Phasma, the first female stormtrooper which makes no sense as being a big thing when the whole point of them is that they are faceless, intimidating and uncompromising soldiers (wouldn't it have made more sense to make her a Moff).

[@ryanborchert8389]

I couldn't say it better myself, and the sad truth is Disney threw out the EU, a humongous source of inspiration and a universe full of strong female characters that were strong because they were written well and their abilities and actions complimented the story the writers were telling. hell, look at Ashoka Tano, Ripley, Sarah Connor, Lara Croft, Princess Leia Organa. so many strong characters who were well written and complimented the stories they were telling. on the other side of the coin, Rey is just strong for the sake of being a strong woman. same issue that happened with Rose (one of the biggest issues of TLJ, among many other gripes) hell they took everything the force awakens did right and just threw it in the trash can. she has a similar feel to her character that Superman or any other god like being have. they make the story of everyone else feel bland and pointless because that one character can seemingly do everything and be able to just handle it all on their own. I think the biggest problem with the last Jedi in general was how Lucas film employees handled the backlash and feedback from the fans. they still continue to attack and harass the fans and tell us we're overgrown man babies who just hate women, which is only making matters even worse and is adding fuel to the flames and showing that the current heads of Lucas film have no idea what they are doing. they made a mistake, that's okay, that's part of being human, but they should also learn to have humility, learn that Star wars is dead without the fans. instead of owning their mistakes and correcting them, apologizing to the fans and trying to make things right, they're just trying to place the blame on someone else's heads like overgrown children. the last Jedi wouldn't leave near as sour of a taste in my mouth like it did if Lucas film and their employees would have just accepted their mistake and said "look, we're sorry. you're right, we made some mistakes, we'll do what we can to make it right." if they took that approach, I feel the utter hatred for Rey would have just been chucked up to Rian Johnson and the bad writing instead of now being seen as nothing but a means to push a political agenda.

[@deathwish-fs1ib]

@@ryanborchert8389 To be honest I don't even think they need to apologise for making a bad movie never mind a bad character, they had a goal in mind that they were attempting to achieve and failed which can happen to anyone. Really, what they should be doing is instead of defending their decision as the right while the fans are wrong is take a step back and just think, "okay, that didn't work, now how do we fix it and make it work", as long as they do that and don't go too far in the opposite direction in trying to correct their mistake then the trilogy might even be salvageable.

[@sevenproxies4255]

"Representation" is not important at all. In fact, the shoehorned "representation" is what's making newer films worse and worse. A characters sex or race should be decided by factors that serve the story. Not to give audience members some sort of "power fantasy".

[@woodside4life]

Excellent points deathwish1987, I agree wholeheartedly

[@andrewbellavie795]

Another great female lead is Clarice Sterling from the Silence of the Lambs. Jodie Foster absolutely nailed it.

[@asusmctablet9180]

She's also great in Contact. And guess what? Jodie is a feminist. That's why she takes serious characters, not Mary Sues. If someone asked her to play Captain Marvel she'd explain to them in detail why that character is a joke.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Andrew Bellavie, agreed!!

[@adamblake9013]

Also the female cop in Fargo :)

[@bobafettjr85]

That scene towards the end with the night vision and she's scared shitless but she keeps going after Bill anyway was my favorite scene for her.

[@LoicFarris]

Jodie Foster is amazing! Fantastic actor and she played a lot of great parts!

[@berserker_bo]

Just a cool side note about Sigourney Weaver when asked: "What attracted you to Ripley as a character?" She basically replied: "What I really appreciate about the script- when they decided to make the survivor a woman they didn't write it like a (specifically) girl's part they just wrote a character, so in a sense she's almost an "everyman" (trope) character and I think that's one reason why she's held up. That was a forward-thinking idea I think they all wanted to see this girl kick the alien's ass it has this wonderful relentless momentum and I'm glad that people still like it today. It's incredible, but it seems to have held up pretty well." Nice video btw man.

[@connorkimbral3034]

Ripley and Sara Conner. Some of the best female characters ever

[@abominationn5657]

Lord Gonk Droid Laurie strode too

[@TVeldhorst]

And River from Firefly, she kicks ass!

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Eowyn and Luthien from LOTR. Wonder Woman. Mulan. Clarice Starling. Furiosa. Buffy Summers. Captain Janeway and Seven in Star Trek Voyager. Peggy Carter, MCU. Brienne of Tarth. Xena. We LIKE female characters. They just have to have CHARACTER and a DEVELOP.

[@_R_R_R]

Leia

[@Darkko88]

Why is so hard for people to remember that she's named Sarah Connor? Especially since in each Terminator film someone says John Connor every 5 minutes or so.

[@MoriMemento117]

Mara Jade and Lando Calrissian were two of my favourite characters growing up - maybe only behind Luke, Vader, and Thrawn in the pecking order. I never once thought about their gender or skin colour. And now, 20 years later, they come to me telling me Star Wars doesn't have enough diversity. Ha! Um, no.

[@theguybehindyou4762]

If Disney loves diversity so much, why don't they have more alien characters? Why'd they replace Ackbar with a human? oO

[@Kalleosini]

The people in charge know nothing of star wars. they probably have no clue what they removed from the story when they removed the EU.

[@ShadowSonic2]

Because on the big screen SW Does suck at diversity. The OT gave us 1 woman and 1 black guy.

[@glyn420]

Star Wars from day one was criticized for not having enough diversity this is a fact. I see why they tried for more diversity in subsequent films. I just wish they had done it with better characters.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@glyn420 Bigger problem was that the fandom was already against the idea of sequels to begin with.

[@kikusama]

I am a female. I don't like Rey and neither does my mom. We also HATED the purple commander Horder or whatever her name was, that kept Poe in the dark. It caused a rift in the Rebels and a boring unneeded mission for Fynn to go on. They destroyed Luke's character. Luke always saw the good in people.. period. The whole I thought about killing my nephew for even a second made NO SENSE!!! Vader who everyone said and felt NO GOOD in, Luke did!!! Luke saw the sliver of good in Vader. They tried waaaaaayyyyy tooo hard trying to make Rey "look strong" but made her unbelievable and a boring character with no personality, no goals, no back story, nothing.

[@Myrskylintu]

This. +1

[@PY5RA]

That female commander was so full of it too... She said to Poe "Hotshot, I know exactly what to do with/how to handle people like you." Umm, nope, lady, you forced him to rebel against you. Your leadership sucks. She would be forced to retire if she didn't do that cheap HyperspaceIsAWeapon maneuver.

[@joyfulvoice5062]

Agreed, Kuri M! I hope the SW storytellers realize that we actually don’t relate to a character better just because they make characters around her weaker than she is in order to make her look stronger. I just end up disliking most of the story. :/

[@lunadead]

@@joyfulvoice5062 They won't, unless they change the entire cast of writers and producers.

[@trendorina]

Almirant Holdo wasn't very simpatetic, but inside the resistence, she has higher rankig than Poe. So she shoulden't have to report to him. Poe is the one that should have to follow her orders. Imagine, you on a military-like organization as an almirante having to report to a PILOT...no way girl!

[@Biscuitchris7again]

I went as Ripley for Halloween one year. I'm a male. None of my friends found it weird. The comments were: "Cool!" and "Aliens is awesome!" Ripley is just a great character... who happens to be female.

[@namelessjedi2242]

The second film also works in themes of motherhood in a way that works and strengthens her character even more. In that case it matters that she is female but it is still not a weakness. Many of today’s movie characters are poorly written as to be weak and have no motivation or direction. Rey is one of those, wandering from scene to scene with the audience still questioning who she is as a person or why we should care about her at all.

[@613harbinger316]

Can you describe the costume?

[@Wolfsheim23]

Ya if you went as Rey, they'd probably think you were quite queer and naively square. As Ripley I'd guess you looked something like Tim Curry from Rocky Horror.

[@Walamonga1313]

Biscuitchris7again That's how it really is. A great female character is...a great character who happens to be female. Same goes for male characters. What's important for a good character is not gender, but actual personality traits and journey of improvement.

[@Biscuitchris7again]

Reuben Kim - It was a plain white t-shirt dirtied up with coffee grounds. A pair of my dads coveralls that I wore sleeveless. He made me a flamethrower out of an awesome toys r us super soaker that he spray painted. An ammo sling (actually a bandolier tool belt). Two road flares, (Which I had to beg for - Parents went with me though) And high top Reebok sneakers (which were uncomfortable as shit and gave me blisters - worth it).

[@0axis771]

You know, I wanna say this. These "professionals" going out of their way to defend their product by insulting the fans and saying that they are the problem, they are ironically confessing how bad their product is. They have no actual confidence in their film against the actual criticisms, so they instead insult the others, which just reveals how shitty their movies are.

[@bharned1]

Ripley being female IS important. Motherhood and sexuality has always been a part of the Alien series. The alien reproduces via a horrifying perversion of sexuality. More importantly, Aliens focuses on Ripley as a mother to Newt. Throughout the film she cares for her, getting to experience the motherhood she missed with her own daughter (as we find out in the beginning of Aliens with Ripley being in space for so long). In the final confrontation, Ripley is being a mother protecting her "daughter" from the alien queen- itself a mother. Being female and a mother is vital to her character, and helps make her something special. We shouldn't just ignore the feminine aspects of her character.

[@figjam9530]

^this

[@ValValium08]

I would disagree that her gender was critical to the character itself. Ripley is a mother but the flip side is that Ripley could have easily been a male/father, and it would fit just as well. I am sure this comment section is chalk full of fathers who would have gone just as far with everything they had to save their daughter. His point is, the fact that Ripley is a parent is simple, instinctual to most human beings (i wont say all), and is therefore easily related to. Yes her being a mother and a woman is part of her simply because she is female but it isn't ALL that she is; it does not outright define ALL of the qualities that make her a great character. Its her humanity that makes her great; her humanity is what makes her so damn awesome to both women and men alike.

[@danangheloiu1499]

@@ValValium08 Ripley's character was written unisex, meaning the role could've been fulfilled by any gender (i haven't seen the movie, i just read it somewhere)

[@sammejia9786]

Looking too deep fam Ripley was written where a male or female could play her

[@MrRotch61]

I think I read somewhere that when they were penning the script for the original Alien, they wrote Ripley as sort of a blank slate, neither male nor female. That's the reason why she's such a great female character (or just character in general like you said). They wrote her character for the sake of making a strong relatable protagonist, with her gender being completely irrelevant and not the focus, which is a problem I have with most female characters these days. They just feel like they're shoehorned in as a marketing scheme, not because the writers genuinely thought that a female character would be the best choice for the circumstances. I don't hate female characters. I just hate poorly written characters. When you make a well defined character, most people don't even pay attention to how they physically appear.

[@kinggoten]

but still wanting to make a hero of whatever gender, really shouldn't prevent said character from being well written etc... there was a lot of ways they could have taken Rey and story after TFA(TFA they have very little time to write) that would have made a lot of fans fall in love with the character. But in general I feel like you are correct when writers set out to make X it always ends up feeling a bit lesser then if they worked on the story and such and let X fit into that more naturaly.

[@PungiFungi]

It is true, the crew of Alien, after revised form Dan O'Bannon's original script, was written as blank slates. Whatever male, female or racial traits and sensibilities attributed to the characters were brought in by the actors themselves.

[@geoffreyharris6453]

There was a good female character as a linguist in a recent sci film. She married and had a child with a man who was playing a physicist. That made sense as women are better with languages and tend to be more intuitive than men on average.

[@defiantspirit8512]

Very true

[@kukicu]

You have described my biggest problem with the new movies: the lightsaber is wielded out of pure talent. It needs years of training, like in the previous movies...

[@twinkiesmaster69]

*skill Talent comes naturally; does require much training if at all Talent is just skill that you get without training Skill is just talent that you get from training

[@Ryan-nm2br]

Orchid Snow-Crystal That's what he said

[@milkoil]

It only takes men years of training. Hahaha

[@RoburDrake]

How many years of training did Luke have with Obi-Wan and Yoda?

[@Graycata]

I don't like the argument because she's she fought with a staff for most of her life that she would know how to wield a lightsaber. It's a pretty weak argument in my opinion. Going off the assumption that people don't know how different those two weapons are

[@HeliRy]

It’s such bizarre thinking. How is Rey, a fictional character in a fictional world, with superhuman abilities... empowering? There is nothing about her that is attainable.There is nothing about her that’s relatable. How to you empower people.... by telling them a lie?

[@sinistar99]

How could Thor or Oden or Zeus or Jesus inspire people? Nobody can walk on water or heal Leprosy by touch. Yet they do and have inspired people. It's called mythology. It has a pretty long record of inspiring people.

[@HeliRy]

sinistar99 Fair enough. It’s all still silly lol. Probably easy to push people to attain mythical status instead of something real. When you fail to become a god, it rolls off one’s back. When we fail to do what others have done... that stings.

[@stairworse]

Palpatine empowered Vader's anger by telling him he killed his wife.

[@HeliRy]

Stair Worse Studios mot really. That lie made Vader grow in power, yes, but it didn’t “empower” him in the true sense of the word. If anything it had the exact opposite effect in making him Palpatine’s slave.

[@jojomj]

How can a lie empower people? By filling out a separate agenda under the noses of the masses. That's exactly the answer. Think about it.

[@mexicoball2529]

Rey >Swings a sword a couple times >5 minutes later. *Im a Jedi*

[@ponchred]

Luke did the exact same thing first

[@ArshikaTowers]

@@ponchred Nope, Luke was trained by Yoda.

[@lunch6360]

ArshikaTowers Obi Wan was an apprentice for 20 years, Vader was still a student when Luke came along, Luke did a handstand in a swamp

[@ArshikaTowers]

@@lunch6360 Sure, if you want to take it literally; he did hand stands. But i'm sure there was much more off camera that was done in the time Luke was there.

[@connorkeddington4473]

Lunch Yeah and then he loses against the highly trained Vader. He abandoned his training to save his friends and paid the price for it. Rey did the same and won?? That's not a compelling character arc.

[@blakebarner]

Ripley - Alien Sarah Connor - Terminator Princess Leia - Star Wars Éowyn - Lord of the Rings Imperator Furiosa - Mad Max Trinity - The Matrix Merida - Brave Dorothy - Wizard of Oz Leeloo - The Fifth Element Just a short list of strong female characters who earned their status as strong. Edit: this is great stuff everyone. Keep it coming. And I picked Éowyn because I love her, lol.

[@vonglover7859]

Love the list. But there will always be a place in my heart for LeLu- The Fifth Element.

[@blakebarner]

@@vonglover7859 how could I forget her! Comment edited! 😁

[@vonglover7859]

@@blakebarner Nice. "LeLu Dallas Multipass!" That line never gets old. A true badass😁

[@Knightwolf1994]

Don't forget Samus Aran from Metroid. She watches her parents get murdered by Space Pirates, is adopted by the Chozo (an advanced race of bird like aliens with magitek), is trained and works her ass off to earn her powersuit, joins the military, and eventually goes out on her own to become a galaxy famous bounty hunter who brings death and destruction to the monsters who destroyed her life. If given the choice of who's a better role model for young girls between her and Rey, I'd gladly choose Samus. At least Samus didn't act like a True Crime Community fangirl when she came face to face with Ridley, the leader of the Space Pirates and the guy who murdered her mother.

[@divius98]

Merida is often a forgotten character

[@leftyfourguns]

Just more proof that the current makers of Star Wars either hate Star Wars or don't care about it. With Princess Leia, George Lucas specifically wanted a brave heroine who was still feminine and vulnerable. We're impressed with her willingness to get her hands dirty, which was even refreshing in a time when most fantasy female heroes really were just damsels in distress. But we were also immediately on her side as soon as we see her message to Obi-wan, showing her vulnerability, her feelings of regret and failure in her mission, and her desperate plea for help in the face of a seemingly unbeatable force in Vader and the Empire. Where in ANY part of these new sequels do we get anything like that? It's just a bunch of "I can do it myself! RAARRRR!". And what kind of message is this sending to young and impressionable girls? "You're not supposed to ask for help from anyone, you should be on your guard all the time, and you can't ever fall in love". What a great new generation that's going to produce...

[@OwlPhobe]

Honestly, I doubt that Kennedy or Disney harbor much authentic motivation behind promoting "strong female characters" in Star Wars. I think this is evident in just how their general depiction of such characters comes off as forced, insincere and or pretentious. I suspect their biggest motive behind promoting this character archetype so heavily is because of its current popularity in mainstream culture and the notion that it would garner them both a lot of money and good publicity.

[@educate3d]

So basically your point of view is women “need” desperation be believable. Because Rey wasn’t as reliant on male characters folks have an issue with the character. Seems ridiculously sexist. Rey is pretty much taking Luke’s place. She has to be more powerful then everyone else.

[@TheDessel]

@@educate3d Exactly! She's taking Lukes place here, right? Ok... It took Luke almost three entire movies to get to that point. Heck, he basically resorted to blasters through the whole first movie, and really relied on the force ONCE, when he destroyed with an "impossible shot" the Death Star. That's how "powerful" Luke was. Was beaten to a pulp when he finally confronted his true enemy (his father), which, btw, took him two WHOLE movies of preparation and training (under the tutelage of masters such as Kenobi and Yoda) and paid for that with his hand. And even when he was at his "peak", he still was "saved" by his father when confronting Emperor Palpatine. Luke was, above all, believable. This isn't about being a woman or not. It's about being a believable character. Something Rey isn't since she's too occupied being a whole model for women empowerment... Luke was ALL about desperation and facing impossible odds. He was never "OP"... Unlike Rey.

[@educate3d]

Marc should they have replicated an entire trilogy because the leads gender changed? Luke was never a fighter. Never was angry, and never really had any type of connection with his emotion which drives the force. The force in Rey is stronger than it was in Luke. Rey was also already a fighter, already emotionally conflicted, angry and was open to the force as she had knowledge of the Jedi and Luke. Luke was completely brand new to the whole idea of what the force was. The character approach is different because of those differences

[@TheDessel]

@@educate3d You see, this is a bit confusing to me. Your first argument was a direct comparison between Luke and Rey, and how she was his "successor" in the upcoming movies. Now we can't compare them anymore? Not even Anakin was as strong as she currently is (when we factor in her none existent training and mere weeks of real experimentation with the force). And he relied on his emotions (the dark side) quite a bit (thus why the Jedi Council was so reluctant at accepting him as a child) as well. Now you're telling me that Rey is comparable to Anakin, the "Chosen One"? Who would "destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force"? I beg to differ... Again, the character is weak. If this was a male character, my opinion would stand the same. Also, emotion doesn't "drive the force". Quite the opposite. It just fuels the dark side of it, which isn't, by Yoda's own words, more powerful. Just remember the first line of the Jedi Code "There is no emotion, there is peace..."

[@onkeldieter5175]

One of the guards even had a weapon disappear

[@Red_Eyed]

Wait, didn't you see all her plot armor knock it out of his hands??

[@viktormaag5605]

she also kicked three guys at once, one guy completely spun around exposing his back and then missed when he saw her back, they had Kylo basically stuck and the guy just throws his weapon away and dies. you can also see this in the rise of skywalker when she fights palps guards. one guy just stands there as his friends just getting slaughtered and one guy is just shooting up in the air and it was not the force because she was using it on two other guys with her back turned to him.

[@Butterfly-ql4pg]

I miss the days when things like gender didn't even matter in Star Wars.

[@friggerx3150]

Yes!!!!

[@TylerCharlesFisher]

You mean the days when it was all white and male?

[@danieldosso2455]

Tyler Fisher, So Leia, and Lando are white men too? What about Mon Mothma? Ackbar was probably played by a white man but I imagine being a Mon Cal has it's own ups and downs

[@TylerCharlesFisher]

@@danieldosso2455 And how many of them were the main protagonists of their own films?

[@maleek7321]

@@TylerCharlesFisher Clearly someone has only watched the original trilogy. The Extended universe is full of diversity. Not just women or other minorities, but FUCKING ALIENS. The universe is a free for all, regardless of who you are and what you look like. One of the strongest Jedi in the entire series was a 900 year old green elf....

[@eduardodiaz9942]

> No strong female characters in Star Wars > Princess Leia in the original trilogy

[@nathanparker8604]

Eduardo Díaz Ahsoka Tano in The Clone Wars

[@TNTspaz]

@Meowcenary One of my favorite female charcters from the expanded universe is B'ink Utrila. The only jedi that General Grevous acknowledged. The EU has tons of amazing female characters Nomi Sunrider being an obvious one but B'ink is definetly up there as one of the greats.

[@mysteryman1036]

Meowcenary you mean the Sister/Daughter? Also, Zam didn't really have enough screen time.

[@Mr1981pete]

Yeah it's sad. Hollywood/disney corp has ruined, eviscerated, decapitated, and nuetered a very large amount of great stories,

[@KurtzeTube]

Padme/Amidala The Shan (Bastilla and Satelle) The evil girl from SWTOR

[@bigorange2082]

The problem is everyone loves Rey for no reason. They all are drawn to her and love her without her earning it in anyway. She never struggles. Luke in Empire was injured by the Wampa. He struggled to get his saber out of the snow to free himself. He fails Yoda’s tests on Dagobah. He is impatient and loses his temper. He fails in the cave. He fails to lift his ship from the swamp. We see him struggling to become a Jedi. Vader kicks his ass and cuts off his hand. Luke was beaten in every way. We wanted to see him succeed and beat Vader. Rey never struggles. She only suffers inconveniences. But she quickly overcomes them. She doesn’t learn anything from them. That’s bad screen writing. That’s not on Daisy. That’s on Rian Johnson.

[@Woogoo336]

I thought she was a great actor but with terrible writing. I feel like most people "like" her because they are essentially told to. Even the movie itself doesn't stand on it's own merits.

[@MrTimmywizzle]

@@Woogoo336 The concept of 'great acting' is a weird one to me. Ridley hasn't had much training from what I can gather. She doesn't seem to be a particularly accomplished actress, although I wouldn't say she's bad. But then again, is she any better than some of the kids in the theatre society at my old uni? Probably not. I've heard more than a couple of brilliant actors say that with a bit of practise good direction can make most people look like a proficient actor. But the poor writing is apparent for all to see. There's no hiding from that.

[@cagkiller0786]

bigorange2082 That’s not bad screen writing. Sadly, it’s reality. Men hav to bust their asses every day and get no recognition. But if you so much as are not liked by or inconveniencing a woman they can claim rape and ruin your fucking life.

[@jjryan1352]

Nice. Give the character it's own spinoff sitcom: "Everyone Loves Rey-mond"

[@jeggsonvohees2201]

It's because the media narrative forces it on people, and blames anyone who disagrees as a sexist or raging fan boy.

[@fishhead1137]

Here's a list of strong female characters for ya Elisabeth pirates of the carabean Ahsoka star wars clone wars Lea star wars Padme star wars Eowin lord of the rings Arowyn lord of the rings Susan narnia Lucy narnia Katara, toph, azula, yue, suki, ti le, may and many more from ATLA Hermione from Harry Potter Marion Indiana Jones Guys female characters are everywhere if u look for to seconds and these are the characters that work because they're not written with only one thing in their character and that thing is strong female i have seen characters with the description of girl that were more entertaining than rey tbh because there character wasn't driven by being strong or independent but rather because they were willing to lean on others and allow others to lean on them. People relate to people and people social creatures who need others to move forward when life gets them down if you want a strong female charactrr why don't u start by making a strong character and leaving their gender and modern day politics out of that description

[@fanofall4605]

Padme and leia are badass but they really didn’t do anything they were more housewife’s and side charathers than main charather many side charathers can’t be Mary Sues

[@paleopirate1725]

toph is a badass, she is blind and still kicks ass

[@godzillaboy011]

Let's not forget Eleven, she may be powerful but she's still broken from her past, hell she even lost her powers! Oh, don't forget Mothra too, she died for Godzilla and the world

[@minicle426]

The Atla girls are terrible...

[@Kale13000]

Tifa and Aerith from final fantasy VII

[@Benny_101]

Th problem that Hollywood producers are having, also because of activists' complaints, is that they think that a strong and empowering female character needs to be: 1) A flawless character. 2) She absolutely must visually best a man in some cathegory or another. Even better if she can make it about the fact that she IS a woman. But what they don't get is that this not only makes the character most of the times not fit well with the narrative, but it doesn't make the character any relatable. We want flaws, we want our characters to have problems with their lives and their personalities, because that's how WE are like, and that's the obstacle that we all have to overcome. I saw Brie Larson in a Captain Marvel panel the other day, and she was saying "Well, she is a badass. She's a fighter pilot, a soldier, and having super powers just make her even more badass", and all I could think was "That sounds so boring". Why would I want to watch a movie about this perfect super strong woman who can do anything and just happens to have super powers as well, making her even MORE invulnerable? Peter Parker was a geek loser before he was Spider Man. Captain America was a whimp who wanted to join the military. Thor and Iron Man were both assholes that needed to learn some humility. What about Captain Marvel? Oh, she was already perfect, only now she is even MORE perfect...

[@mewphantom]

This is exactly the problem. In reality, activists make up a minuscule portion of the population in total. They don't represent everyone. We're in the place we're in because we have allowed the overly vocal and overly sensitive few to decide for the majority.

[@Nintenguy0]

You summes it up perfectly with your statements of comparison to other superheroes, a lot of good comments here but I really appreciate this one.

[@xoxocamilla]

Well said!

[@macmcleod1188]

Agreed. And interesting thing about Spiderman is they rarely make a bit point about his strength but he's crazy strong.

[@mistercurmudgeon7353]

@@mewphantom how did this topic get around to Trump? " we have allowed the overly vocal and overly sensitive few to decide for the majority."

[@MovieBr0]

"So what strengths does Rei have?" Rian Johnson: "Yes"

[@danielrobertson911]

@Ryan R except anakin had to undergo training in lightsaber combat and force stuff while Rey beats kylo the very first time she wields a lightsaber while overpowering him in the force even though kylo trained with Luke and snoke for years... Anakin also lost horribly in his his first engagement with a sith (dooku) while Rey just gets through it perfectly Anakin was a born jedi yes but he had to train to unlock his potential and Rey didn't do shit and already has it

[@danielrobertson911]

@Ryan R true ren was a pretty retarded villain ngl but anakin destroying the ship as a kid was because he was "using the force" which I can get behind since ray flew the falcon without training, the midicolorians doh....idk man I think anakin would still be higher since he the chosen one. As for the mind tricks I just dont see how she can get so powerful without training we've seen jedi use it before but only after they've been trained to do so... I guess my problem is she just doesn't have a reason (yet) to why shes so good with a saber and so prominent in the force besides plot armour and woman power stuff

[@tg-k6yt255]

@Ryan R you are guessing... The film doesn't say nothing

[@shayla106]

TG-k6 YT Also, that Ryan likes to ignore is that high levels of Midicolorians still doesn’t equal training. Anakin was desired by the emperor because of how powerful he was. Yet even with years of training Anakin still got his ass kicked.

[@tg-k6yt255]

@@shayla106 🗿👌

[@Sodomantis]

When I was a kid I wished Ripley was my mom. I still do. Sigourney, if your reading this, I have the adoption papers. Call me.

[@lonelysith66]

Aim high! LOL XD

[@megatom5]

One thing with Ripley as well, at least in Aliens, is that it is her maternal instinct that gives her strength to fight for Newt. Having lost her own daughter to the ravaged of time at the beginning of the film, the movie sets up her relationship with Newt as this driving force behind her power. To me there is nothing really feminine about Rey. A lot of these stories and new characters wants to ignore a lot of the fundamental differences between men and women, and act like they don't exist. What it ends up making is a character that doesn't feel like a person IMO. To me Ripley feels like a person because she does feel like a real mother in the scenes she has with Newt and in her desire to protect her. That is something that most people have seen to some extent. It has been ingrained in our DNA for millions of years, current trendy things in Hollywood won't rewrite that as much as people hope. The fact is 20 years from now Rey will feel like a character very much of the time. This Mary Sue, lesser version of Katniss from Hunger Games. And Star Wars at that point will just be some dumb YA series targeted at teens as that is what Disney has turned it into.

[@atomicdancer]

My mommy always said there were no monsters, no real ones, but there are. If Ripley was my mom, she'd never lie to me about monsters.

[@paulatreides6711]

hahaha , nice :)

[@Imlaor25]

I love how she is a loving motherly character AND a total badass. A true lion mom. Not that I think she is hot or anything, but Ripley always make me think “ok, you can have my babies, they will be safe with you.”

[@lukaskback9710]

The agenda shouldn’t be ”women are strong”, it should be ”women CAN be strong”. Character development 101

[@TheJNastayy]

Couldn't agree more. And it annoys me to no end that she's just SUPER powerful right off the bat with no training or explanation. Just cause she "is strong with the Force" should not mean she would be able to beat anyone in a dual , let alone Kylo who has years and years of legit training from the strongest light and dark Force users in the galaxy. You don't even need to read SW books to know that that doesn't even make sense. The entire point of being Force sensitive in SW is that you have to work at it and learn how to control/harness it. Sadly, at this point, I don't even think I'll go see Episode 9 because I'm so disgusted with what Disney has let happen.

[@JustClaude13]

Kind of like how Luke was a blithering idiot who stumbles around half trained and almost gets everyone killed, but at least he has friends to keep him alive until he learns to use the Force. Let Rey fail like that; let her be frustrated and impatient. Give her a challenge to become a strong hero. Being a hero isn't about having superior abilities, it's about being an ordinary person who works hard to overcome her own fear to face off against an alien queen to save the kid. That's why I love the Ghibli princesses. Even the goldfish are struggling to be more than they were.

[@icknau5782]

Exactly! If Rey is supposed to be an icon for women, isn't this sending the wrong message? Nothing in life comes easy, women and men alike need to work hard to grow and achieve success. I see this similar to how I see Superman. I have never liked him because no one is all powerful for the sake of being all powerful. Yes, I get that he has kryptonite, but characters like Batman, Spider-Man, Iron-Man, are so much more believable. It took Luke three movies to become strong enough to take down Darth Vader. He had to be beaten along the way in order to find the strength within himself to overcome Vader. Rey is a Superman-like character which is why she is boring. There is nothing more for her to achieve.

[@snirt1259]

Claude That is exactly what they should have done but they did not and wont because she is supposed to be “ a strong independent woman for feminists to look up to “ but instead they made a character that is Boring and unrelateable. (

[@jacobsummers3441]

"Thats not how the force works!" - Han Solo The directors and writers should listen to Han. They even wrote it themselves smh.

[@LokiTheClever]

Credit where it's due it's a more serious problem in the last jedi because at least in the force awakens Kylo Ren was injured and stuff

[@big7588]

People forget that the movie "Alien" was a horror movie, and "Aliens" was an action movie. There was some bleed-over of the two categories in each of the movies. The character Ripley survived the horror movie and grew into the hero of the action movie. Simply put, Ripley is a developed character.

[@shakieltaylor9995]

Like issac from dead space

[@JarthenGreenmeadow]

Thats actually a pretty decent parallel.

[@superpaytonmars8852]

Yes!

[@shakieltaylor9995]

@@JarthenGreenmeadow actually there are a few parallels between the first three alien movies and dead space in the first movie Ripley lost her daughter in the first dead space game issac lost his girlfriend In there second installment they protect a surrogate(Newt for ripley and ellie for issac) and both have a disappointing third entry in which they die(ripley fell into a furnace while issac most likely die along with the rest of the earth when the brother moons destroyed earth)

[@GhostRiderLSOV]

@Shakiel Taylor "while issac most likely die along with the rest of the earth when the brother moons destroyed earth" Well, since the series got cancelled, we'll never know...And it was such a "how will they make it out of this one?" cliffhanger. :(

[@tSp289]

9:45 Yup. One of my favourite characters from ANYTHING currently is Clementine from the Walking Dead games. She managed to tick all the SJW boxes WITHOUT being lame: she's a mixed-race brown-skinned main character who is undoubtedly the heart of her series, but her race is NEVER mentioned, and her being a little girl/small-statured teenager makes perfect sense within the story. It gives her a vulnerability that really builds tension when she's in danger, and highlights the fact that her real strength is that she's extremely brave and has a good heart. We're not shown a Mary-Sue. She makes plenty of mistakes, some of which get people killed, but ll her victories are hard-fought and cost a lot both physically and emotionally. We're painfully aware of how vulnerable she is to harm when e.g. she gets her arm ripped open by a dog, then has to sneak into a house to steal supplies and *stitch her own fucking arm up* because no one else is willing to help her. The genius of her writing is that because we start out in a father/protector role to her, when she achieves something like this that ought to be way above the ability level or gall of someone her age, we don't think 'lame' - we're so outraged that no one will help her that when she helps herself and leaves the adults around her looking stupid and weak, we get a moment of pride. See, THAT is how you write a strong female character who can be a role model; you first aim to make a good character within the context of the story, then have her strengths not be some impossible kung-fu nonsense or superpowers, but courage and compassion; something ordinary people can achieve.

[@ElementVoidX]

this, so much, I hate the cardboard SJW characters, where all their story and character lies in their race or gender. I love Clementine for those reasons you stated here, she is believable, like her story could be in this actual world.

[@LeeEverett1]

Clementine is one of my favorites too.

[@rhondahoward8025]

Elle was also a great character in The Last of Us. She was plucky for sure, but she often bit off more than she could chew, was shown being slapped around, bleeding, struggling, making stupid mistakes, etc.

[@ElementVoidX]

@@rhondahoward8025 yeah i also love The Last of Us and you are right, she even has scars to show for it.

[@PureSwedishViking]

The people writing these characters still don’t see the difference between a ”strong FEMALE character ” and a ”strong female CHARACTER”. The emphasis should always be on the latter. Why? Because a character is not just something you are; its something you build up and achieve though failure and retries until you overcome an obstacle.