The Strong Female Character Paradox

[@thorskywalker]

Now, I know some of you don’t enjoy these types of videos from me (and for others it’s the only reason you’re here) so going forward I’m going to try and have a type of set schedule for what days I release what type of videos so you can have an idea of what to expect out of me and when. Not saying I’ll always be able to hold to said schedule, or that I’ll get up a video of a particular type up every week, but I will try. For example, I’ve got some Marvel videos planned and in the works that I’d like to put up every Monday, turning it into “Marvel Mondays” (I know, cheesy name but you get the idea). Tuesdays, soon, will again be days for story videos… Saturdays will be the day for “Let’s Talk Some Star Wars”, and Sundays will likely be more commentary style videos like this one here. Other days are kind of “to be determined” but will likely be Star Wars in nature… such as theory videos, reviews, the continuation of my “exploring the dark side series” and others of that nature. I’ll also be doing more “quick take polls” when news of some kind drops, where I post a one day poll to get your reaction to some news before going over it in a video. Hopefully, you all like this idea, and it’ll lead to a more “organized” feel to the channel. Oh, and if there are certain types of videos, or certain topics you’d like to see from me, by all means suggest them.

[@thenomad4606]

Nice George Carlin reference.

[@alienspacebat5218]

This time you even started your comment with "Now...", not just your video.

[@armoroftruth3166]

To sjw *😡🤬☠💀#@"the line must be drawn here!"

[@armoroftruth3166]

I suggest you make a video to explained the sexuality in star wars(gay,lesbian...)after that backlash from making lando a pansexual or aftermath backlashs and gay characters like aphra.

[@armoroftruth3166]

I have no problem in fact if you weren't made this type of videos in the first place thought you were just a another pretender star wars fan like star wars explained👍

[@markchang2964]

If I am to quote Judge Judy, "I am not a woman judge. I am a judge who happens to be a woman." The job or role should come first.

[@sebaschan-uwu]

Well when it comes to grammar, the word female should come first unless we are saying "SHE is a judge". But I agree that the female part doesn't effect how well she can do her job and in this case shouldn't be considered

[@mikkel6183]

@@sebaschan-uwu r/iamverysmart

[@酎ハイ飲んだらいい感じ]

@@sebaschan-uwu "but I agree that the female part doesn't effect..." It's "affect", not "effect". :)

[@_wayward_494]

@@酎ハイ飲んだらいい感じ instantly his entire paragraph has been rendered useless. Oh the hypocrisy

[@neilbreen371]

@@酎ハイ飲んだらいい感じ lol, got em

[@charlesajones77]

Don't try to write "female" characters. Write good characters, who happen to be female.

[@SageRuffin]

Finally, someone gets it. I'm a black dude and, of course, I'd like to see more black characters in fiction, right? Just going "Hey, see? Black folks!" and calling it a day isn't going to work (coughBlackPanthercough); you still need to make the character(s) interesting. At that point, gender, ethnicity, whatever-the-hell becomes a non-issue.

[@kirbyhatesincels917]

EXACTLY. Disregard genitalia for a minute and consider the fact that individuality outweighs everything.

[@liamwalton4183]

Something I find interesting, related somewhat to OP, is the lgbt representation... Which believe it or not Deadpool 2 did amazingly. It wasnt a big plot point, it wasnt advertised to hell... It just had two girl who happened to be in a relationship. I think at one point deadpool said "You two are so cute together" before continuing onto a sarcastic joke. Then was never even mentioned again. It should be like that. Just something normal and not "OMG WE HAVE GAY CHARACTERS IN OUR MOVIE" Same goes with a female character or black or whatever. Just make the character who they are and dont push agendas. Just consider it normal... Because it is. Like a character having brown hair isnt made into a big deal, why would their skin colour, gender or sexuality be a big deal?

[@litheran69]

BURN THE WITCH!!!

[@TheAurgelmir]

In my opinion you should write a character, and then think "what does either gender add to this character". In my mind a good female character is someone who wouldn't work as well if it was a male. And vice versa. Many characters, even the "doing male things" female characters work well when their gender enhance the role. Rey doesn't enhance the role of "powerful force user" bye being female. Heck you could gender swap Rey and Ren and I am sure the movies would be exactly the same. (Actually no. I think Kylo Rey would actually be an even more interesting character because it's an unusual role to see a woman in: angsty teen with rage issues. But then again those traits are more common in young boys, so Ren "feels right".)

[@sabretooth7691]

Call me crazy but I just don't think gender should be a character's primary trait.

[@dreamingblue3939]

Nope, not crazy at all. I agree. I think a problem with some characters in movies/books or any medium is that writers focus WAY too much on what their characters are rather than who their character are. Race, gender, sexuality- that's all just "what" a character is. Personality, beliefs, motives, flaws, and strengths are "who" a character is. I believe the "who" is much more important than the "what".

[@laxcifer]

@@dreamingblue3939 Well said! The "who" is what creates a compelling character, which I think is what some people mean when they say a "strong character." They don't mean physically strong, like Wonder Woman and Rey, but that the character is interesting and that you want to hear more of their ideas and see their mannerisms. They pull you in and keep you wanting more. Nadia in Russian Doll is a great example of a "strong" character. She's quirky, clever, and funny, and the way she reacts to the weird situations she encounters is unique. Rey, on the other hand, was just kind of... blah.

[@pequenoperezoso3743]

sabretooth7691 my dic is a pckckfk oh yeah sub to my channeeeeeeel

[@georgesikorski9891]

No. You are completely correct

[@emrysgeibhendach7572]

yes

[@DjPrimeVideos]

Im late but imma say this. We werent told that Alita and Diana were strong female characters, we were shown.

[@ayrtonauman9435]

DJ Prime note Wonder Woman was like “oh actually my son really enjoyed this movie!” And captain marvel was like “you men didnt like the movie because it was meant for girls!”

[@michaeljames6737]

wonder woman is my favorite female super hero movie was dope and people say MaRvEl Is ThE bEsT

[@bethanybrookes8479]

Alita was directed by a male who was a fan of the original manga/anime (it's a masterpiece, I can understand why) and wanted to share the story and alita's character with more people. He just changed it a bit to fit as much of it into the time frame. It was one of the good live action anime adaptions. Idk about wonder woman, but I get the feeling that the original mindset might have been pretty similar. Captain marvel, mulan 2020 and the new star wars trilogy were wrote with SJW PC feminism as the primary intention. And that is why they are bad.

[@CRAZYFLARE123]

@@michaeljames6737 i mean marvel is the best

[@michaeljames6737]

@@CRAZYFLARE123 yeah but some movies for marvel are questionable

[@char5285]

The key to a strong female character isn’t the female part, it’s the character part

[@VioletDeathRei]

The issue is a good strong female character will have you not thinking about the fact that they are female. And that's what they don't like, they want the female part first and foremost and keep ruining my female characters...

[@IncredibleMet]

And the strong the part.

[@kaptinbarfbeerd1317]

@@IncredibleMet Unfortunately, these agenda driven movies conflate "strong" with "bitchy and arrogant", two traits which no sane person of either gender would approve of.

[@RubberyCat]

No, it is all three parts. I mean, she can't be male ... unless she's trans, i guess, or possibly a crossdresser. She can't be weak ... at least not as a character. But yes, she must indeed also be a character. The criticism against Carol Danvers, as well as the disliked-or-worse female characters in the Star Wars movies ... and several Marvel Comics ... is not they aren't CHARACTERS, because they are. I mean, they are not chairs or mere concepts, right? No, the criticism is that they are not fleshed out, they are not well made. In a way, they are WEAK.

[@RubberyCat]

@@kaptinbarfbeerd1317 Well, in that case, Carol should be ok, as she were neither?

[@Infamous1892]

Just write women like actual human beings instead of Superman with plot armor.

[@ursaber]

Superman on top of plot armor, that is seriously OP considering base superman is godlike

[@jeggsonvohees2201]

Femto Unless he's fighting batman, then he's reset back to level 1.

[@ursaber]

@@jeggsonvohees2201 right on the money

[@thenomad4606]

Just keep the identity politics out of it. Politics can be fine, provided it's executed well, but identity politics? That panders to the basest instincts of human beings. It should be rejected.

[@G360LIVE]

I think it would be more fitting not to use Superman as an example since Superman has struggles too (when he's written well, anyway). The point is to write female characters who face challenges and work to overcome those challenges. If Rey can just close her eyes and summon the Force, without training, to beat Kylo in a fight, there's no way for us ordinary folk to connect with her. That's really what matters: the ability to develop a connection. A person can connect to Superman as long as his struggle is framed in a way that an average person can recognize. For example, someone can connect with Superman struggling to fit into society. Whether a person has superpowers or not, that's a real struggle.

[@cybersketcher1130]

Katara, and Toph from The Last Airbender are amazing female characters. Why doesn't anyone mention those. Edit: This is the most likes I've gotten on a KZbin comment.

[@thenomad4606]

Doesn't fit their agenda.

[@TetsuRiken]

Because avatar was a good well written show with charicters on all frounts shatter the sjw nartive

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

Because they are deeply flawed. Nevermind that that's just what makes them so great, because it doesn't fit the narrative.

[@dragon-tamer7956]

I love them.

[@Julian-pw5mv]

@dflowers30 i havent even heard of that...

[@yasseradel4234]

Create a powerful FEMALE character ❎ Create a powerful female CHARACTER✔️

[@ertymexx]

This!

[@ertymexx]

I mean, yeah. Powerful means overcoming obstacles, dealing with hardship, actually facing loss, hard choices and dealing with the consequences, not surfing over all of it on hurricane Mary-Sue.

[@Elder74]

Inferno Dragon your comment is spot on.

[@Legba85]

Inferno Dragon I’m taking this comment to heart. It needs to be heard everywhere!!!!

[@OXY187]

Both Ripleys from the Alien franchise is my favorite female characters. That's how you make a female character. She doesn't born strong, she becomes a strong person.

[@Eleni1002]

As a female, I must say I related more to Captain America and his story than Captain Marvel. The idea that I need a female character in a movie so I can relate to someone is absurd. You relate to someone because of their experiences not because of their genitalia.

[@Superkid33]

I totally agree. It seems like a lot of people in Hollywood doesn’t understand the main idea of actually telling decent stories. It feels like if the story gets in the way of their propaganda they remove a good story.

[@gothambillionaire]

Sophia Will THANK YOU!!!!

[@rachelcarter9455]

Preeaaccchhhh I feel like people are shocked when I say I dont like a certain hero because I'm "supposed to" relate to heros that match my genitalia. Just cuz our genitalia match doesnt mean I will like or relate to you. If I dont relate to you then it's your story not your genitalia that attracts me

[@youtubeuser4943]

@@Superkid33 that's what happens after years of nepotism and undeserving people getting hired instead of the most talented people when it comes to Hollywood. It's not about talent...just who you know and can you make money making something as bland as possible to try and be good to as many different people as possible

[@oomsou5018]

I agree with you on this. You don’t need to be the same gender of the character to relate to them. Hell there’s this one character from a game I love who is a female and get this is practically the first (or second I can’t remember) character in fiction I could actually relate to on a deep level.

[@fayjune3008]

I think a mistake is being made by calling these characters strong. Strength comes from work, overcoming adversity and striving to better yourself. You aren't strong when you can already do everything and just shrug everything off. Being a woman, myself, I appreciate seeing actually strong female characters who actually have to work through something, like Ripley, having to fight, having to face that queen despite the fact you know she's terrified of these aliens, as you see when she's having nightmares at the beginning of the movie. Having female characters who start out being "strong" and then they have no faults, make no actual mistakes and don't have to work for what they get is a disservice to women everywhere and I believe it does more harm than good, telling us we need to be that perfect to be considered strong. No. Strength can only come by conquering your own weakness just like courage only comes when you're afraid. These characters aren't strong, they're poorly written examples of wish fulfillment. I'll take a female character who starts out weak, or who has even stereotypical female weaknesses they have to overcome over these characters any day of the weak! Give me a character who whines about cramps, takes a Pamprin and then forces herself to move on. Might sound silly, but it's far more realistic.

[@shreyamukherjee4784]

Thank you for that comment, appreciate it and relate to it. Thank you.

[@DbladeMedic]

Very well said. Bravo

[@wheresdlambsauce6286]

I give Fay June A+

[@xyzpdg1313]

I agree, these are not strong characters. They are not even characters at all - they're caricatures.

[@fuuhoji648]

strong woman means nowadays: a physically strong women that can fight and is stronger than men. For normal people like us a strong woman has a strong charakter even though she is physically weaker than men, she stands her ground.

[@monicabellu9566]

I'm a woman and I agree with you. Rey is not anoying, just poorly writting and uninteresting, and it's ok to look things with a critic eye, yes, even women. I'm personally tired of being offered this mold of "strong independent female character" where in most cases she is just a man with boobs, hates femenine things (yet keeps on doing them herself), ends up looking nonsensical and a mess because of her efforts on rejecting men's help/good actions. Women can be heroes, villains, sidekicks, strong, weak, cowards, clever, femenine... They just have to be well written.

[@AndreNitroX]

I have 3 sisters who love Star Wars and even they agreed that Rey is the most boring and overrated character in the movies.

[@PungiFungi]

It is telling , if not ironic that most well written female characters are found in Hollywood movies during the old studio days.

[@quibily]

AndreNitro X1000 There are a lot of us girls and women who didn't like Rey. We may not be as loud as the infants who cry SEXISM, but we are definitely rolling our eyes at Hollywood and their insulting "trend."

[@wernergansert6377]

Spot on!

[@theflyingkaramazovbrothers6]

Thank you. Men with boobs, that's the problem with it. And, in fairness to woke feminists, these characters are often the creation (or adored) by nerdy, weak men who have issues with their own identities and thus project what they wish to be ONTO these men with boobs. It's pure fantasy and always has been.

[@Holics94]

As a female myself, the tropes of “women are stronger than you lowely men” really annoys me.

[@martinkb]

Lowely Men? Huh!

[@thewolfcatbeast3567]

that is refreshing to hear

[@mr.mister2833]

Same same, i really dont like it when the main characteristic of a character is their gender

[@anxivty]

Umbuko DaJuko because it tries hard to show that women are superior instead of women are equal

[@yasmin-lx4kb]

Poniesofdoom i know. gender isn't a personality trait.

[@hongvan0922]

Scarlett Johansson did amazing job as Black Widow, a strong female character, and no one seemed to have a problem with it.

[@danielpreciado3112]

I'm still waiting for a Black Widow movie.

[@TheftTone6]

@@danielpreciado3112 hell I'd watch it.

[@theoneandonlytony]

because she wasn't the lead

[@theanonymouscommenter976]

Because she wasn't written like walking propaganda.

[@reuteratwork8983]

@Van Dinh - ...& yet, she does not have her own film, does not get to be a lead -- yeah, nobody seems to have a problem w/ female characters who "know their place" & stay in the background, supporting the mighty, manly male lead -- it isn't until a strong female is made the main character that the pre-release bad reviews flood RottenTomatoes & the "anti-SJWs" start cranking out their hit-piece videos...

[@TROOPERfarcry]

"Having" strong female characters isn't a problem. "PUSHING" strong female characters is the problem.

[@trevorboyer2731]

I would amend that by saying that having strong female characters isnt the problem. Pushing strong female characters is A problem. Having well written character regardless of gender or race is THE problem.

[@RubberyCat]

@@trevorboyer2731 You mean " _The lack of_ well-written characters regardless of gender or race is THE problem."

[@sjoerdkalischnig1877]

they are not pushing strong female caracter but Disney is pushing Mary Sues without an good story so they can complain that we hate it and that will get more attention so free advertisement

[@PartPrincr]

@Johanna Freethinker What about a fat man?

[@pw6002]

Having strong female characters isn’t a problem. Having poorly written characters (female or male) is a problem.

[@justnothing32]

All the great female characters in the MCU are being under toned by Captain Marvel. Everyone would be delighted if there was a Scarlet Witch movie, or a Black Widow movie, people would have no problems with those movies.

[@abbyritt7237]

Wanda's my fav

[@ther0ach28]

I heard about a rumor where the actor who plays scarlett witch said that she was being treated worse and pushed towards the back since captain marvel was announced. Take it with a grain of salt though, might not be true.

[@ther0ach28]

However, literally one, if not the strongest character in the MCU, is being pushed back to a TV show so captain feminist can be the star.

[@SandeepSinghMango]

@@ther0ach28 Which one is being pushed back? Gonna have to check out that tv show

[@WorlockX]

Addison Allen I believe we will be getting a Scarlet Witch and Vision show on Disney +

[@ivanjoshuacaragdag4423]

I consider Margaery Tyrell to be one of the best examples of a properly written strong female character. She may not be a warrior, but her resiliency, cunning and willpower showcased that a clever mind is sometimes more valuable than brute strength.

[@ryanarment5393]

Same thing with Olenna Tyrell. She was a political player on par with or even better at it than most of the other characters.

[@codyallison8093]

Yeah, I was gonna say that Olenna was even more awesome.

[@ShanghaiRooster]

Agreed. George R.R. Martin writes a diverse range of female characters very well, and perhaps some others should study his works to find out how he does it.

[@shellyscreation3339]

Ivan Joshua Caragdag Yes, that’s because GRRM doesn’t believe in giving special treatment to one gender: if we have crazy female dictators like Cersei and Dany, we have craziER rulers like Joff and Ramsay. If a female character faces physical violence, a male character faces the same, sometimes, worse! And that’s why it angers me when some websites try to use Dany or Cersei losing it as some sort of ‘trope’ which equates to writers “Demonising the women and perpetuating the myth that they’re emotionally unstable and therefore, nor worthy of ruling.” I mean, REALLY? Where were all these idiots when Ramsay was made Lord of WF? Why didn’t they talk about Jon making decisions based on emotions? They only see what they want to see, i.e *Women* who’ve been *wronged* by the writers because they’re not...female writers? 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

[@lidarren343]

Yess!! Even Sansa herself by overcoming what life threw at her and learning to adapt and survive, playing to her strengths, has always made me consider her a strong female character. Really all GRRM'S female characters had dimension and an actual strength to them that wasn't just "look at me I can throw a punch"

[@siloPIRATE]

Did Marvel forget they had Peggy Carter and then went and cancelled it. That was an example of doing it right

[@JayVal90]

That show was really cool I thought. Definitely upper tier Marvel Netflix show.

[@cosmicremix311]

And Karen Page, and Agent Madani, and Misty from Luke Cage, Black Widow, Quake, should I go on?

[@Jenkkimie]

It is a shame that the lead actress refused to work further but I can socially understand that on principle she did not want to work with someone who was accused of sexual assault.

[@JayVal90]

@@Jenkkimie I never heard that story. Was Harvey Weinstein the producer? I guess it's one thing if it's proven, but in todays insane #MeToo era, I'd wait for proof before applying such principles. If it's a matter of risk, sure. But not on principle.

[@Jenkkimie]

@@JayVal90 I don't know who the accused person was but yeah that is the reason there wasn't Season 3. She did say that she would be happy to work on the series again if the accused person was fired, so basically either her or whoever that accused person was.

[@tramrant]

Your analogy with Mary Poppins actually reminded me that Mary Poppins herself is very much beloved strong female character)

[@DogratDavis]

She's now considered racist because of the scene where she gets covered in soot from the chimney lol

[@TankHunter678]

I got into a discussion with a friend of mine about Mary Poppins and her various traits. Initially (since I have not seen much of Mary Poppins) the listing of traits common to the work she appears in kinda listed her as a Mary Sue, however my friend pointed out that every situation she was put into was used to show new facets of her character and personality. She may have always come to the (eventual) right answer for a given situation, but that was because she was willing to put in the work to turn her answer into the one that worked adjusting as need be. Showcasing that her character was not skin deep unlike Mary Sue characters.

[@citlalicervantes6498]

I agree!!! She was a strong female character, and it wasn't the fact that she was a warrior or a sazzy rude person that made her strong, it was her kind personality and her radiat joy that made her strong. That's what I call a role model female character!

[@Willowy13]

So much that before her new movie came out she was remembeed in the MCU and Star Wars. I still like Yandu's better.

[@Deuteromis]

Actually now, she is considered a shitty nanny and person. I mean she did probably kill all those nannies...

[@kam3l749]

R2d2, an actual robot is more human and likeable than Rey or Rose

[@SamnissArandeen]

To be fair, Artoo and Threepio were the most human characters of the series from its very inception.

[@colleenross8752]

@@SamnissArandeen so was Chewie!

[@colleenross8752]

The droids are hilarious

[@ХристоМартунковграфЛозенски]

Even though we could not understand his language.

[@thighguy4534]

I like Daisy Ridley, but her character is too overpowered (thanks to pc plot armour). Lets not discuss that piece of shit called Rose.

[@DarkLight6Tv]

Padme, Leia, and Ashoka are 3 of my top favorite characters..I'm a 31 year old black man..

[@Wmei64]

DarkLight6Tv mine too😁

[@theguywhoisaustralian1465]

Padme????

[@user-vu1zu9iy5z]

Looool

[@brent9355]

You're also clearly a sexist.

[@ohifonlyx33]

I'm a girl, and I'm curious what makes Leia such a great character just from the original trilogy... Granted, I'm not a big Star Wars Fan (MCU and LOTR is more my speed), but I never thought she was more than a supporting role? Not that I hate her, but I'm also genuinely curious why so many people love her.

[@b4ne56]

The problem with a mery sue: If you give the character EVERYTHING takes EVERYTHING away from a character.

[@ggt47]

But at the same time they have everything.

[@sugaryheaven4089]

Yeah, for example: Bella Swan

[@ggt47]

@World Wide Weeb Mark Hamil?

[@ggt47]

@World Wide Weeb Oh.😅😅😂

[@trafficcone7344]

World Wide Weeb lol I didn’t know it did that, I’m definitely trying that later 🤣

[@Metruzanca]

When you mention making her a woman as an after thought I immediately thought of one of my most favorite franchises: metroid. Where making Samus a girl was purely an afterthought, one that's not designed to be made a big deal of. The game is made to be enjoyable without knowing who you are playing as. Then a reveal "hey you're a girl btw" and she becomes one of the most beloved characters in gaming.

[@ch.illmatic]

Samus is pretty damn cool, although me being a silly young boy, I always thought she and megaman were related lol

[@isauldron4337]

Well said.!

[@KindredBrujah]

Great example! A situation where a fanbase actually liked a character _more_ after learning she was female, having already enjoyed the character essentially genderless beforehand.

[@RogueFox2185]

We just want relatable female characters, it can be done without making them OP and unlikeable to the point where the audience roots for the villain to just kill them.

[@Hunting380]

that is soo the last jedi XD

[@aralornwolf3140]

Did you really root for Vice-Admiral Holdo's death?

[@RogueFox2185]

I did after the resistance ships were getting blown up and Leia explained the plan to Poe, at that point I was just hoping that TFO would take her out.

[@21Roofdog]

that would actualy be a movie i'd watch. Get a strong sjw character be the main person in your film so everybody normal starts rooting for the bad guys to win. And then kill off said character in the most gruwesome way imaginable :D

[@aralornwolf3140]

Didn't they do that in Solo?

[@tvb5509]

"Anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo." ~Knuckles the Echidna

[@craigkuhlman6869]

That kinda just makes me ask this: Why can a children's cartoon about a super-fast blue hedgehog, a fox ultra-mechanist with two tails, a dumb lug of an echidna that punches things, a lovesick pink hedgehog with a sledgehammer, and a badger with a boomerang doing battle against a mad scientist with robots have a better grasp on gender equality than the rest of Hollywood and other media industries in whole?! Probably money...

[@lucjanssen3567]

@@craigkuhlman6869 because they are japanese and they are a lot better in those things then hollywood

[@insert_edgyname8848]

@@lucjanssen3567 sonic boom is an american division of sonic the hedgehog

[@BangMaster96]

We don't need a strong FEMALE character, we just need a strong CHARACTER

[@sicarius6501]

So,gender neutral?

[@viksaggu9085]

No he means bad ass characters like Ridley from Aliens, Kill Bill, Wonder Woman. Those are great characters who happened to be female

[@Spartan322]

eh, we need good female characters, but barring that we do better with good characters that are female. But a better story would definitely be able to use naturalized femininity.

[@Ultrasonix3]

Never before has a single youtube comment reflected my thoughts more exactly

[@Ultrasonix3]

We don't need to make them strong becuase they are female. We need to make them whatever they are and they can also be female

[@angeldude101]

_Sometime in 1985-86 at Nintendo_ "Wouldn't it be funny is Samus was a Woman?" ... "MAKE IT SO!" And one of the most badass female characters was born on a whim after most of the game had been developed.

[@realJoeMavro]

Samus is one of the greatest bounty hunters in all of fiction, right up there with the Fetts and Spike Spiegel. I even thought she was handled fairly well in Other M, even though the game itself wasn't that good.

[@-Ryu]

Samus is a good example of strong female characters Rey is an example of shitty woke politics in star wars

[@kylefrank638]

Not trying to start a "woke" competition or anything, but when I was 9, I watched Raiders of the Lost Ark and thought Marion was really cool. Like, she loses as much as she wins, just like Indiana Jones himself. That's what makes characters endearing. They can't just be perfect and be on top of every situation they're thrust into.

[@JK-xt5ex]

CAPTAIN FALCON

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@-Ryu Oh grow up. There's nothing political in the new SW.

[@tryhardshreck4784]

I don’t know anyone who hates Jyn Erso *sorry if I misspelled* because of her gender.

[@isaac14ac]

Devin Smith She’s an alright character

[@hardin2525]

If anyone doesn't like her, it is because Rogue One replaces the EU version of the Rebels getting the Death Star plan via Kyle Katarn. But besides that, she's alright.

[@professorthox4499]

She’s bland, but not awful.

[@Armoless]

It's spell "Jan Ores"

[@brettsteinbook5370]

Nope. The flaws in that movie have nothing to do with her. It is just disappointing on other issues but is by far my favorite Disney era Star Wars Movie by about 17 parsecs.

[@redrum6051]

Gamora/Nebula>Captain Marvel whos with me

[@chenryan3030]

The daughters of Thanos are quite good if not amazing characters in the MCU.

[@sugaryheaven4089]

and also Scarlet Witch and Black Widow

[@spider-maaz1871]

Facts

[@ddomenicoeeziommancini]

Everyone

[@DiaboTatuado]

@World Wide Weeb Well at least Scarlet Witch will have a Series, WandaVision. Her character have so much interesting things to show and explore

[@scifigeezer5271]

It is funny how they conveniently forget that most men like Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner, Wonder Woman, Black Widow, Alita, Trinity, Furiosa, Hit Girl, Leia, Officer Lewis, Atomic Blonde, Lucy, Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow, Major from Ghost in the Shell, Gina Carano in Haywire, Geena Davis in The Long Kiss Goodnight, and anything starring Michelle Yeoh.

[@jasonbrown4526]

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was awesome.

[@michaeljacquart7791]

The Bride, Vernita Green, and O-Ren from Kill Bill, Mrs. Brisby from Secret of NIMH, basically every female in the Aliens movie, X-23 from Logan, Dr. Sattler Jurassic Park, the lionesses Lion King. Not all lead roles but powerful characters who have inspired many people.

[@pkconred7960]

No Beatrix Kiddo?

[@aquilesriffo]

Because neither the protagonist or the character speaks in 'Misandry' tongue

[@noxian3006]

True

[@ursaber]

Its the personality of a female character or any character in general that matters. Not their testicles or vaginas. Rey simply has no nuance, no personality, no charm, no charisma, no pull, no interesting history or backstory. She's literally a blank slate character who came out of nowhere and somehow she's the most special person in the galaxy without a reason for it or without any struggle or hardship.

[@thenomad4606]

People are people. Identity politics divides us. But you must look beyond to peoples' collective humanity. I thought we knew that...

[@ursaber]

@@thenomad4606 Oh we do know it. Sometimes, we just don't care about rational logic and just go with whatever the fuck we want regardless. Das the problem with us in modern pop culture.

[@thenomad4606]

@@ursaber I think that the problem is recent. We knew that identity politics and racism and what-not was already bad. But now the mainstream media has resurrected this type of thinking. It could lead to actual racism. In fact, I believe it already has.

[@ursaber]

@@thenomad4606 identity politics is all exclusively about racism. racism was used mainly for people of color but now its for literally everything. skin color, beliefs, mannerism, sexual orientation, just being who and what you are.

[@Armoless]

"You don't like me because I'm -insert reason here- " It is an escape. Blame the other person for something they don't like about you. For me I get it, I understand some people don't like me because I am an asshole! But I don't go around telling people they should love me and stop being assholist! That'd be crazy... So no.. I blame it on being Italian, "You just don't liked Italians."

[@Blodhelm]

Ellen Ripley and Sarah Conner where two of the best characters in cinema.

[@chiffmonkey]

And you know what's notable about them? They both started off normal and earned the title of badass.

[@vietnamd0820]

chiffmonkey Good point

[@kylesprinkle7015]

@@chiffmonkey exactly, they were relatable in that they lived normal lives until they were forced into a corner and had to fight to survive, thus turning them into badasses, Sarah Connor finally had to step up when Kyle died, he wasn't there to protect her so she had to fend for herself. Ripley had her unit killed off and she was force to fight to survive, but now "strong female characters" Are Mary sues. They automatically are given the power to overpower just about anyone, they have no flaws and they are virtually perfect

[@joshuabrown9398]

Not even sarah comes to close ripley for me, shes a real baddass in Alien and Aliens

[@brandonm5731]

Is everybody forgetting furiosa in the new Mad Max?

[@Katarax]

Men: Love Black Widow... Also Men: Love Wonder Woman Also Men: Love Mariah Hill Also Men: Love Peggy Carter Also Men: Love Princess Laia Marvel PR: Men hated captain feminism cuz she a wahmen... Men: No the character was badly written and she is being shoehorned into a very developed story line at the very end with a prequel movie dating 20 years ago with no cannon mention and heaps of inconsistencies with her existence and relationship with nick fury.... not to mention the film was just garbage to begin with... its like someone saw the other marvel movies once and was keeping cannon consultancies from what they could remember... Marvel PR: see, misogynists... they just hate women... Men: I wonder if the actress playing the strong female characters might have anything to do with it... Marvel PR: nope they just hate women

[@Shou_22]

Also Men: love Ahsoka She may not be in the movies yet but she and Laia are beloved strong female characters...

[@LearnedSophistry]

Katarax NGL I laughed really hard at “Captain Feminism “

[@LearnedSophistry]

Katarax also I can’t forget the Men: love black widow. Well not if you include cinemasins who hates her unless she’s looking pretty or being sexualized.

[@skar8009]

Maria Hill barely did shit in all her appearances tho.

[@evanm225]

Skar800 but we all fucking love Cobie Smulders after watching How I Met Your Mother.

[@rubeng370]

Alita is one of my new favorite female action characters (outside the MCU) since Furiosa in Mad Max 4.

[@aralornwolf3140]

There are a couple of problems with the two women there... yet they can be hand waved away with some psychological analysis. *Shrugs* Great Movie, just small minor details which prevent me from giving it higher than a 9/10. Edit: I'm surprised the Critics gave it a 60% and the audience is giving it some where around 90% 3.5+ stars, lol. Admittedly, I'm not sure how close to the source material the movie stayed to... as I have no inclination to watch Battle Angel Alita.

[@fmabincarim34]

Just saw the movie. AWESOME!!!

[@midgetwthahacksaw]

@@aralornwolf3140 As someone who HAS read the source material, Alita as a film is SPOT ON! It's a beautiful rendition of the first three volumes of the manga and it's wonderful!

[@aralornwolf3140]

It feels like there will be more movies about Alita, as the ending is so open ended. From other adoptions, if they stray too far from the source material, the other books can't be made into a movie (Example of two movies which made sure that the other novels couldn't be used: Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass and Christopher Paolini's Eragon). Are you saying that they deliberately made sure that they make the other volumes into coherent movie(s)?

[@EuphoricCinema]

Me too! I just saw Alita Battle Angel today and she's one of my favorite characters now because of it

[@nateavery2875]

Btw. Alita was really good.

[@RedLeader327]

Hell yes

[@techno639]

I didn't see it yet but I heard mixed reviews of it

[@crazytidy2426]

@@techno639 the story had a few flaws, but the actual character was great.

[@techno639]

@@crazytidy2426 Yeah so I've heard. I also heard mixed reviews of Captain Marvel

[@freierHimmel]

@@techno639 As far as the honest reviews go: Every white male character in this movie is depicted in a negative light and as putting her down. Arnold Schwarzenegger is symbolicly beheaded and she stands up from the shackles of the white males (the "patriarchy") and realizes that she can do anything. Thats basicly the subplot. The feminism is subtile (not as ridicilously obvious as the the Ghostbusters reboot). And Larson performs like a wooden Log even in her highly emotional scenes. The movie is said to be still entertaining, as for the Cat, Nick Fury and "Captain Feminists" best friend (they claim to be besties forever but are said to have no detectable emotional connection).

[@nolanscripture]

"Strong female character" effectively just means female written like a male without flaws. Script writers take all the positive traits strong male characters generally have and attribute them to a single female character while omitting any drawbacks those male characters also have -- hence the pejorative denotation of "Mary Sue." It isn't sexist to point this out. A poorly written character is a poorly written character, gender be damned.

[@Seele2015au]

Nolan Don't forget they never need to go through hell to become the heroes that they are. We empathize with Luke Skywalker because he was not born with full mastery of the Force, unlike Rey. We also cheer Alita on for her hero's journey to reclaim and redeem her past. Gender is not an issue: the "strong female character" paradox was invented by those to spite themselves, and then use it as a weapon against normality.

[@mrknarf4438]

This also prevents them from writing actual feminine characters. Being a badass in combat, resolving things by fighting, flexing your muscles are all masculine traits. It's encoded in us, through dna and testosterone, and it's just generally how men tend to act, so a "SuperMan" is the guy who punches the hardest. Females are more caring, better at strategies, at uniting people, at supporting all around, at deflating fights and hitting with their tongues and wits instead of punches. A "SuperWoman" shouldn't just be a genderbent Superman, she should be very different, just as badass, but with a different set of skills.

[@Seele2015au]

@@mrknarf4438 Indeed: that is why the "sex change" movies such as "Ocean's 8", "Ghostbusters" (2016), etc, do not work.

[@Aethuviel]

Yeah, I barf a bit in my mouth every time I hear that phrase. I think it originates from the time when we were used to the majority of female characters being fainting damsels, "Oh save me, big hunky brave man!" with absolutely no personality, goals, or purpose beyond being a plot device. So, post-feminism, they had to counter that with STRONG women, who are so STRONG that a 16 year old girl with next to no training can beat down a bunch of highly trained men twice her size, she doesn't need to man to save her because she's STRONG and she can be beaten and raped and tortured but she doesn't ever cry or get traumatized because she's STRONG and she masters everything instantly because she's STRONG and... yeah. Enter the Mary Sue. Who has absolutely no personality, goals, or purpose beyond being a political mouthpiece. We shouldn't write "strong" characters. We should write REALISTIC and THREE-DIMENSIONAL characters. Characters we can relate to, that feel like real people. I'm actually quite sick of the narrative in later years, that if a female character likes to wear feminine clothes or doesn't know how to use weapons, she's "nothing". I heard people complaning about Daenerys in GoT years ago that she sucks because she doesn't wield a sword herself. Having three dragons and commanding an army... nah. She wears dresses, and doesn't get into battles herself, so she's not "strong" enough. That Sansa sucks because she's girly and cries (she's a teenage girl who has suffered great trauma, what did you expect?), et cetera. Write "strong" characters (whatever that means), if it makes sense and it's who they are. Write "weak" characters (if you mean physical or mental abilities), if it makes sense and it's who they are. And don't care what's PC.

[@bigorange2082]

Nolan but then they make the male characters around them stupid and incompetent.

[@nellfromhell7192]

"A strong female character is a fully fleshed out and interesting woman, not a woman who punches and shoots stuff" Edit: grammar woops

[@andreydikit652]

Rey was such a "wtf?" character. She could do anything, everything, and wasn't bad at it. There were no struggles, no hurdles to climb, she was just always the winner, always the best. Beat down trained Empire troopers by herself? Sure. Pilot the Millennium Falcon better than its owner? Yup. Defeat a trained dark jedi in saber-combat? Or course. Defeat numerous elite guards of the main antagonist with very little combat training? Damn straight. It's those little dumb things that pile up higher and higher that tend to annoy me.

[@blupool867]

research the movie, she makes mistakes all the time, so I never understand this arguement. She even seems cringy sometimes

[@andreydikit652]

​@@blupool867 The mistakes she makes doesn't take away from the fact that there are things she should not be able to do, because being able to do them makes no sense. Take her lightsaber duel with Kylo-Ren, for example. It makes no sense for her to handle a lightsaber so easily. She wasn't great at it, but she didn't suck either. She was supposed to suck and even cut her limbs off. A lightsaber is nothing like her staff, or any other sword. The weight is only present on the hilt; the beam portion of it has no weight because it's composed of pure energy. Realistically, that should make the weapon very unbalanced. It should be extremely difficult to swing it around like a normal sword because the blade is weightless, and we naturally use the weight of the blade to lead weapon swings. It would be like swinging around a flashlight. An overhead strike with a flashlight, pretending the light portion is a beam, should not deal much damage because of the absence of weight, when it makes contact with another user's lightsaber. No weight means no gravity, which means no momentum created on every weapon swing. Before her duel with Kylo-Ren, Rey never had formal lightsaber training. This means she was using the lightsaber the same way she would use any other weapon with weight. That is a very bad idea. Using a lightsaber against inanimate objects, like a door or a brick, is fine. Those items won't resist, but a person will. In a lightsaber duel, physical strength is very much required. Kylo-Ren, as we've seen, is very fit. Even if he had an injury, overpowering Rey should have been easy. That fight is pure nonsense. Learning not to hurt yourself with a lightsaber should take a very long time of training. Yet she, somehow, skipped months (generously speaking) of lightsaber familiarization training.

[@TerryAVanguard]

@@andreydikit652 okay so first of swinging a lightsaber is no different then swinging a chefs knife around, the lack of weight actually makes it a lot easier to control and maneuver. If anything the lack of weight means a welder won't have a problem welding it but is more like to forget its length and danger an cut themselfs with the spinny moves movies love but not so much with the regular sword fighting moves. As far as kylos wound, by your same logic a laser should have no weight behind it and yet the crossbow that kylo was shot with in the organs had enough weight to throw a trooper head over heals into the air. He the chased them down on foot in the freezing cold. Kylo should have been dead dead, he was a monster to keep moving after that hit. He then had a fight with fin, granted he won it pretty easily but it still would have tired him out further. Her latter fight with the elite guards was alot less realistic as unlike Yoda, Luke didn't train her at all. Self training can do a lot but, a great teacher will make a big difference and without it it would take longer to get so proficient. Though even though Luke has Yoda, he really dosent have a sparring partner(as yodas to old) untill he faces Darth Vader who is considered to be one of the best Saber fighters of all time. The time table is kind of iffy there but it was probably only a few days at most a few months. The show time passing for Rey and Luke but a month long chase scene through space seems silly. Anakin Skywalker pod race expert who built his own pod, a Droid and took out a space base at the age of what 8 maybe 13, would say becomes a master jedi by 18 but he had the help of the full council though he was one of the youngest jedi ever to become a master Vs ray who is 18-22 and has been working with machinessince she was 5-8 on a planet where the people would steal and ripe her off if the could. I agree that she definitely has some over the top feets but I also the alot of the ones people have problems with aren't takening everything into account.

[@user-xb5bz4fu9o]

@@andreydikit652 If we're going to use that interpretation of how hard a light saber is to handle, than Luke should not have been able to understand it as quickly as he did. Even with training, there should have been a much longer grace period. And besides, during the Kylo Ren fight not only was Kylo Ren emotionally distracted from KILLING HIS FATHER and pretty badly injured, he wasn't trying to kill her. He wanted to turn her while she just wanted to win, big difference.

[@andreydikit652]

​@@TerryAVanguard When I said swinging a lightsaber is difficult, I wasn't pertaining to the near-weightless aspect of it. I was pointing to the fact that it would be too a little too easy (as in dangerous) to swing it without weight and gravity to act as a counterbalance, especially with the amount of strength it usually requires to strike another user's lightsaber. Naturally, when a sword, or any other weighted object, is swung, a certain amount of physical force is included to create momentum that not only carries the weapon to its intended destination, but to deliver damage. In the case of the lightsaber, the damage dealt is more dependent on the actual force of the swing and the saber itself; basically, weight, gravity, and momentum have no place in that equation. Since Kylo-Ren also has a lightsaber, the deciding factor would be skill, stamina, and strength. Kylo-Ren had her beat in strength and skill, but his stamina was taxed from previous injuries. However, it didn't seem to bother him very much in the beginning of their fight. It was only after Rey's "closing and opening of eyes" moment (a very cheesy way of focusing the mind/body, done in many movies and shows) where she started to overpower him. I assume that was the moment when she started gathering the force to strengthen herself, a technique she should not have known yet due to lack of instruction.

[@aidankeys8534]

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Push an agenda, you will get opinions pushing against, push harder and you will be pushed back harder. It’s a constant cycle of hate.

[@MJ-jd7rs]

Agreed. But that also goes both ways. Push back against an agenda, and they'll push that agenda even harder.

[@brettsteinbook5370]

I don’t really care about the agenda. I hate bad movies. I hate being told I don’t like their agenda and I should go to hell because I don’t like bad movies. I happen to agree with the agenda. I just don’t like being told what I believe by anyone else. If you don’t believe that I don’t like your movie because it’s a shit pile, fine don’t believe me. But don’t tell me that the fact that I don’t like your movie makes me a racist bigot or misogynist.

[@stepanbrazda5738]

Until someone takes a weapon and stop pushing and start cleansing the other side

[@alexvogel610]

A lot of my politics boils down to "I don't necessarily think they're wrong, but they're being assholes, so fuck 'em"

[@leodouskyron5671]

Actually the addenda started years back and led to all most all heros being White and male. That means if you don’t fit that category you felt left out and you pushed back. Now that those that were not represented had power some are going to push for that representation. But people with hack writing and other skills thought the only thing that was needed was the right biological bits or look. That was NEVER what we who wanted representation wanted. We never wanted those that liked the white male standard to be kicked or insulted, we never said or wanted to stop white males from being at the media “table”. We wanted a bigger table so everyone in the seats are in every part of the film. The problem is not that there is an addenda, it is that they have failed to give any of us what we wanted. I don’t know if you agree. But that is what I wanted and most people I know wanted. What we talked about. The way things are now no one is happy.

[@davidcomito505]

I was excited to see to Rey grow as a character but that didn't happen in Last Jedi. Forgive me if I'm disappointed.

[@patrickdempsey1045]

That's because Rey didnt need any growing. She was already established as perfect in every conceivable way from the force awakens and didnt need any training whatsoever. That's what makes her a Mary sue.

[@Spontaneous1984]

​@@patrickdempsey1045 People who say Rey didn't need to grow focus too much on the action scenes and believe (mistakenly in my opinion) that the action scenes defined her as a character. For me, and I assume David Comito, it was the Force vision Rey received after touching the light saber that truly drove Rey's character. i don't regard the action scenes as essential, at all, to Rey's character. The Jedi mind trick, reading Kylo's mind, beating Kylo in a light saber duel, avoiding detection and not needing extensive Jedi training to do the things she did in TFA, they could have removed that from the story and Rey would still have been Rey. Having said that, the writers made a huge blunder by including those action scenes. To me, the true character of Rey was her backstory. It was the Force vision, her being abandoned on Jakku, her trying to find a purpose. Rey was a badly written character for sure, but not beyond redemption. Unfortunately Rian Johnson ruined a perfect opportunity to develop her as a character. All she does in TLJ is stalk Luke Skywalker and try to find ways to get Kylo returned back to the light. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that her parents abandoned her for . . . what was it . . . drink money? Something like that. I mean, at least it wasn't something stupid like being a bastard child born out of wedlock, for example, Luke's daughter. . . . or being in any way related to the Skywalker's and Solo's. I still believe Rey can be "saved" as a character. There is one more movie in the trilogy. Maybe Jesus will appear to her in a dream and she will convert to Christianity. As long as Rey is still alive, there is still a possibility for salvation. (I'm kidding about Jesus btw.) I'm not all that fussed about alleged feminist influences in movies. What really puts me off is when you see aspects of their ideology in the movie itself, or when an actress like Brie Larson so blatantly and militantly proclaims a feminist agenda. Brie Larson really should learn to keep her trap shut.

[@snowangel7980]

The director change was apparently a large contributor to this. Cameron made a backstory for her, and then didn't get the opportunity to put it on screen. I'm hoping since he's back for the next one he'll try course correcting.

[@randomperson8571]

Same! I liked Rey in TFA. She had room to grow at the end of that movie. She was going to get training from Luke! Then TLJ came along and suddenly she didn't need any training, because... reasons.

[@Fer00007]

i think the problem is rlly the movie itself because i got the impression that the last jedi was just to connect episode 7 with 9

[@tomalphonso]

How about Trinity in the matrix? She was an awesome character! Carrie Ann moss was also really good as Natalie in memento

[@mrmr4622]

Yeah, Trinity was badass, yet people in hollywood treat those new movies as if there were never any strong female characters before

[@tomalphonso]

@@mrmr4622 Or how about the characters who happened to be female in kill bill. They were all badass and well realized characters. It also didn't feel like they were pushing some sort of agenda. Except to make a good movie

[@mrmr4622]

@@tomalphonso Exactly, there are a lot of good female characters that everyone loves because they are interesting, well written etc, not because of their gender

[@gamingmetstijn3917]

Didn’t a lot of people like jessica jones because it was pretty good not because she was a woman but just a good character?

[@l33lzonwh33lz]

GamingMetStijn very true!

[@tintillor]

I was on the side of indifference with JJ. I only liked the first season due to Killgrave.

[@liawinter5245]

yeah - it seems to be a theme with me. can;t stand any books with female characters anymore, and have only found a few so far that i truly love - all wound up either being anti-heroes (because ya'll know the only good characters are the morally grey ones) or very bad-ass, intelligent characters that didn;t flaunt their feminity like a badge. it's why i love male characters so much and tend to towards them; i know a few people who have called me sexist because of this, despite being female myself. but, really, when nearly every book with a female protagonist is the same, where the male characters are dumbed down to make room for the all-might, all-intelligent queen, i just can't stomach it. Hermione is a good example. as the series continued, the boys grew dumber and she grew smarter and smarter. i love intelligent female characters - cunning, manipulative, tactical, and just brilliant altogether, characters. but not characters like Hermoine, or characters like all the fucking females in fantasy romances.

[@ShinyFood]

@@liawinter5245 i feel exactly the same way. I always look for a male character in books but its not always easy

[@Drakonflare]

@@liawinter5245 If you want to give it a shot, try Wildbow's Worm. Excellent story with a cunning and tactical female protagonist who's still very human. Also has a a very big and diverse set of characters. Fair warning though; the story is rather dark.

[@i.j.dragonfly3123]

Ironically, the whole "LOOK! A strong lady! How unusual and unique!" advertising strategy seems really sexist. If you really want to depict more women as being just as powerful and interesting as men (which I'm 100% on board with), shouldn't you just treat a strong female character as... normal? Putting something or someone on a pedestal for a trait they can't control might not be as overtly dangerous as degrading them for it, but it's just as annoying. This is all coming from me, a female writer who's currently doing a story about two girls saving their planet and falling in love. You just have to treat them like any other character. Give them strengths, flaws, fears and dreams. Those are far more interesting than gender.

[@joythought]

@@gamephreak5 according to some measures and not others. Sure, in sport the top male athletes are almost always stronger and faster than the top women in their sport but those top women athletes would wipe the floor with most guys in the sport. Thinking that women are weakened by emotions is to ignore the opposite truth that many guys lack emotional connection with others and that we live in a world that's likely to need both highly rational people and deeply connected people to achieve significant improvements that actually benefits the whole society.

[@dabossman5650]

@@gamephreak5 Yet there are MMA Women fighters that could beat up like around 80% of men doe

[@promcheg]

@@gamephreak5 powerful, does not mean physically stronger. If you seen/read The Expanse, there is a ton of powerful women and most of them aren't really physically strong. There is also Alita: Battle Angel, who could probably break a strongest man in half, but the strongest thing about her is not physical but the uncompromising will to not back down.

[@sbcd7808]

Good luck with your story.

[@Yothirjgdit9595]

It is against morality.

[@selinnazsur2328]

Lol I'm a woman and I'd rather have a creepy bug-eyed alien angel of war and destruction in cinemas than an overpowered lifeless mannequin that has Kristen Stewart's emotional range in Twilight. Brie pulled a plank face since apparently that's what "strong women" look like and it's hilarious.

[@wumpusrat]

It's kind of funny to watch, really. Over the last few years, maybe upwards of a decade, the people who write stuff like that (who have come to be dubbed SJWs) seem to think that you can only be a "strong female character" if you divorce yourself from all feminine traits. You have to talk, act, move, and think like a man, at all times. You can never show emotional weakness, compassion, any motherly instincts, be a sexual or sexy being, etc. Nope. You have to be no-holds-barred muy macho all the time. You can see it really clearly in the SJW Marvel comics. Hell, they even make the female characters flat-chested and square-jawed, to make them even more manly. It's eye-rollingly cringy.

[@lisapepin926]

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself (including Kristen's inability to show emotion!)

[@Bonez0r]

@@wumpusrat I stopped reading Marvel comics about 15 years ago so i don't know their current state. But when you mention flat chests I think that's probably more of an (exaggerated) reaction to the period before that where most female characters were walking around with huge balloons under (and often hanging half out of) their costumes. Obviously to keep their male teen audience interested, but I think it's understandable that they wanted to try to get a wider audience so they changed it. Hell, I was a teenage boy when I started reading them and even I thought the mega boobs were too much. And the characters were interesting enough in their own right (at least in the 80s and 90s when I read them), they had some brilliant writers and didn't need the extreme bodies to keep people reading.

[@wumpusrat]

@@Bonez0r The problem is their "wider audience" didn't show up. Sales have plummeted for pretty much all Marvel titles ever since they embraced the SJW mindset. Comics that used to sell 100k+ per issue now sell 50k, and others that sold in the 60-70k range are selling 20k. Their new titles, which push heavy SJW politics, sell anywhere from 8-15k per issue. Back when Shooter was in charge, if a comic dropped below 60k it was likely going to be cancelled. Now comics regularly sell around 18k for their #1 (and they CONSTANTLY relaunch #1 comics, just trying to sucker people into buying them when they 'start over'), and then drop off by about 50% after 1-2 issues. Superheroes are supposed to be larger than life, colorful idealized people. Not all the female characters were sporting DD cup boobs. Most of them had pretty average chest sizes, with a few smaller, and a few larger (depending on the artist), just like real life. Making all the women flat-chested and the same personality doesn't help create appeal. It just makes people get bored and leave. Or worse, they completely ruin a character, like Coates did with his Black Panther and the Crew comic, where he turned Storm into an angry anti-white racist. Wtf.

[@kaitourobin3206]

@@Bonez0r as a E cup women there need to balance of different sizes. Having all flat chest is not realist. The solution isnt changing size but shape. A artist tip is you can make a very modest women large chest and than have fan service type with a small one. They needed to change the outfits and vary the sizes not all flat chested.

[@uncledarren4262]

Alita, long established character with a following. Well written, well cast. Wonder Woman, same! Captain Marvel, unpopular character, with a an actress cast who is a narsasitic misandrist. Rey from star wars, great actress but just a poorly written character in a series of poorly written new stories. Simple to explain

[@kingambrosius9125]

How good is Alita’s manga

[@ShadowSonic2]

No, Alita and WW are acceptable because they're naive women-children who need to be led around be men for most things and have generic girly stuff in their plots. Rey and Carol don't need to be led around like children and don't waste their time on girly girl stuff and that's what the Incels hate. That Rey and Carol aren't made to be pathetic damsels that need to be saved and led around all the time.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@youareallbots7536 1) So like Superman or Captain America then? Who no one hates? And Carol had training. 2) So like Luke in ANH, Wonder Woman and Captain America, again. 3) They were not. They just happen to be women. Not everything is some secret conspiracy. And BTW, Gal Gadot said that if you weren't a feminist then you were a sexist. 4) Villains being interesting characters happens all the time. Folks find the Joker more interesting than Batman in every movie they have together.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@youareallbots7536 1) Whatever flaws Steve had, they developed more over time and weren't there in his first movie. So we give Carol the same benefit of the doubt. 2) Luke didn't have much of a personality beyond "Naive Farmboy" in ANH. He's considered the blandest character in the OT for a reason. And Steve's more human personality emerged over several movies. He was pretty archetypal in the first movie. 3) No, that's just the typical response from people who don't like that what was traditionally a sausagefest now has leading women in it. And feminism doesn't mean automatically being against men, that's just propaganda. There's no agenda, none at all. They're no more overpowered than most male heroes. Rey has only ever fought people who aren't trained that much (Ren) or at all (Snoke's Guards, who are more for show than anything else). Carol is no more overpowered than Wanda was in her first movie and her personality is supposed to be that of a military hardass type. It's like complaining Robocop has no personality. Those line in her flashback are no different that Steve being rejected again and again by the army and being told by men he'll never be anything. It's a humanist message, not a feminist one. If it was feminist they wouldn't have had the Supreme Intelligence be played by a woman. 4) It sounds more like you have some personal issues with Larson herself than anything in the movies.

[@-Ryu]

@@ShadowSonic2 captain america has an incredible personality... And superman is an alien who tries to fit in with the humans. Much more Character than captain marvel.

[@Rob-529]

I've always wondered why the Hollywood version of a strong woman, is that she's basically a man. Think about how strong women are portrayed and what they do that makes them 'strong'.

[@RoreyG]

Exactly! One of the best ways to illustrate a strong woman on film was in the ballroom scene of Wonder Woman. Diana carries herself with the beauty and grace of a woman but also with the iron will and determination normally associated with male action heroes. Compare that to Rey who's written like an idealized version of Luke Skywalker but with boobs.

[@chiffmonkey]

@@RoreyG Olenna Tyrell. Now that's a strong female character.

[@i_chosen_one_ips432]

@@RoreyG yes very small boobs

[@christianmbong]

@@i_chosen_one_ips432 you're not helping our case

[@bandotaku]

@Alyssa Bennett I'd argue that they do flaunt her "womanhood" quite often, but for as many times as they do, they also try to balance it out with her actions. I don't really like her character as much as I did in the first couple of seasons, but I suppose she's not the worst.

[@britbloc123]

Rey isn't a strong female character. She's a Disney Princess who opened all the loot boxes.

[@poyi1013]

britbloc123 she’s LV 99 you newbs

[@apothisiii5549]

Don't lump disney princesses in with rey. Some of them are actually good characters.

[@britbloc123]

+ApothisIII The poing I was making is that Disney Princesses are often flawless, perfect and loved by absolutely everyone for no reason. Rather like a particular SW character we know...

[@aleahlrb]

And it suddenly makes sense. Disney.

[@uamedia898]

@Adam J. Harper 💯💯

[@Zathren]

I came here just to say I enjoyed Alita: Battle Angel so much, that I'm considering seeing it a second time in theaters. Really fun and awesome movie.

[@Sorain1]

Suggestion: see if you can get a ticket for the 8th. I'm sure you'll figure out why swiftly or already know why.

[@schrodingerskatze6192]

I also saw it a second time today. You can tell that it was made with passion and truely feels unique and anime-esque. I love it! Just a blast to watch.

[@LuchoVena]

never seen a movie twice before and even when I repeated I was still moved by it.

[@jjmiles7173]

There is one thing to blame... "Ego". When a writer(Of any gender) with an Ego develops a main character, they will make the character how they want to be. Mary Sue. Gary Stu.

[@2ndairborneguy790]

These people act like we don't dissect Gary Stus. There are many they people notice.

[@jjmiles7173]

@@2ndairborneguy790 And some Gary Stus are only Gary Stus in personality alone(like Goku).

[@2ndairborneguy790]

@@jjmiles7173 well there are 7 factors that make up a Gary Stu/Mary Sue - Being Overpowered - Having no logical explanation for that power - Having little personality - Lacking concrete goals - Being perfectly morally good - Never failing or showing a moment of character flaw - Being instantly liked by people for some bizarre reason. Rey fits all of these, whereas Goku only fits some of these.

[@jjmiles7173]

@@2ndairborneguy790 To be fair.... Goku gets stronger when he fails, and personally I think Plot Armor factors in the source should also be a factor.

[@2ndairborneguy790]

@@jjmiles7173 well "never fails" is part of that. When the plot works to ma L sure you dont die (like kylo getting shot so Rey can beat him)

[@miaththered]

You have a point, quite a good one really.

[@thenomad4606]

Yes, he does.

[@FuddlyDud]

Astrid Wells he usually does :)

[@Rishi123456789]

He's always on point.

[@andyofsandy2870]

Never forget Bastila and Satele. Star wars will always be EU.

[@michaelmckeay8203]

The Shaws are a great example of strong well written *female* charachters, as especially for Bastila it is actually a part of the story (though it makes less sense for me all ways choosing to play female Reven XD) where the plot at a point centers around her and the main charachters relationship, and how it saves her (unless your an ass XD) but even though that's what Star Wars fans like and respect are still called misogynists just because they dislike the new poorly written female charachters. A few more examples are; Ashoka Jaina And Mara Jade With many more to draw from from the EU. But most feminists do not do their research and just shout misogynist and bigot with facts and evidence to the contrary. The Shaws are some of my favorite EU charachters and they are actually well written.

[@obsidiansinclaire3826]

@@michaelmckeay8203 the Shans were literally the best. I couldnt have asked for better adversaries :)

[@papab34r]

Bastila is a really well written female character, one which dont try to compete in muscles with the main character but rather schools him/her like a child every time with smarts/wisdom, come to think of it, shes probably my favorite jedi character part from Qui Gon and yoda

[@ggt47]

...yes (shreds a tear of left eye)...my girl Bastila. She is a new character in my sequel trilogy it takes place a hundred after episode 6.

[@ggt47]

@@michaelmckeay8203 ...yes...YES!!!

[@JD-hp8rz]

The problem, as I see it with characters like Rey, or Captain Marvel is that we are never shown WHY they are strong, we are just presented them as strong. They never "earn" their strength, they never learn to walk before they learn to run as they say. This is a problem with any character, male or female. You build sympathy and attachment to your protagonist through struggles, hardships, relatability, then you empower them. This is also why its very hard to make a really engaging Superman movie, you could get away with that in the 70's as it had literally no competition, but we require depth to our characters now. Alita is naive, young, and in way over her head at points. Then she gets punished for it. Before she manages to overcome it. Wonder Woman never needs any significant power-up, but she is also naive, a fish out of water and somewhat socially impaired before she learns to accept our world for what it is. Also, Rey in particular I find as such a passive protagonist, things just seem to more or less happen to her, like shes just along for the ride. To have the mindset that "these characters are female, people dont like them, they must not like female characters" is ridiculous, and exactly the same kind of twisted cause-and-efect reasoning a lot of anti-vaxxers use.

[@Tearakan]

Captain marvel we know why. Experiment with an infinity stone. She has the same issue that Superman has, too strong for most villains.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

One character I think is beautifully scripted is TWD’s Carol. This beast of a woman starts out as domestic abuse victim who even loses her child daughter to zombies. She became someone, who understandably bounces back and forth mentally from PTSD, who used all that trauma and experience to be a badass and make decisions where it counted, and took responsibility for them rather than blaming others. Michonne is another well written character.

[@richardroberts3719]

Even if they did it just isn't any type of realistic. Women have never really been warriors, that IS the domain of men.

[@stagosaurus3181]

@@richardroberts3719 Well, I'd say the idea of women filling in the "warrior" profession is less _unrealistic_ and more of a _novelty._ It's kind of like the idea of men who willingly take on careers as nurses or caretakers. An easier and more common example would be stay-at-home husbands. Evolution dictates our roles in a society, but so does the society itself. But then again, we're living in a time of peace right now, so make of it what you will.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@richardroberts3719 If that were true, there wouldn't be any Warrior Goddesses in Ancient Mythology. But there always have been.

[@skycendre257]

It's true that Hollywood often doesn't do a good job portraying women. There are SO MANY movies where women are basically accessories,. and this is also true for a lot of novels, a lot of videogames, a lot of comic books. Many producers realized this, and they also realized that they wanted those sweet SJW cookies, so what they did was making "strong female characters" to appeal to that specific part of the audience. But their idea of a strong female character is Rey, which feels like she came straight out of a bad fanfiction, or Captain Marvel, which is a bully with the emotional range of a broomstick. So what did the producers think of doing, when they realized that their characters kinda sucked? They blamed the audience for not liking them, a lot of the times even being backed up by the actors (like Brie Larson), and basically labelled "manbabies" those who criticize their shitty products. They even said that "toxic masculinity prevents men to enjoy the Captain Marvel movie", as if seeing Brie Larson hurting and robbing a random guy should be considered something to cheer for, and not to call out as an act a villain would do. Now the thing is, I am a woman. I don't like when a character gets criticism solely because she's a woman, and this happens from time to time. But when I criticize Rey, Holdo or Carol Denvers I get called a "manbaby", or to hear that my problem is toxic masculinity, and in my opinion, this shows how much of a problem this whole thing has become. I, a woman, cannot criticize the bad writing of a character because apparently, I am a misogynist if I do. And I am truly, deeply sorry for all the men who love Ripley, Leia, Trinity - but also Furiosa, Wonder Woman, Scarlet Witch - who get to hear that they're misogynist just because they realize that Rey and Captain Marvel are horrible characters. When I get called a manbaby I can laugh it off. It probably hurts a lot more when a man gets called that.

[@Austin-vp6qq]

Same honestly. Personally, it's like "whatever, I know a bad character from a good one." I feel like there's a lack of humility among producers. Instead of thinking of the character first or simply being self aware of their mistake, they call out others for "being man babies." You know, they could turn captain marvel around considering what happens in Engame. There could be an interesting character arc for her in her next movie, in which she questions her abilities to be a hero and learns humility. But again, if the producers are saying "no, you just don't like female characters" then I'm afraid we're not going to see that much character development, which is a shame.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@Austin-vp6qq You mean like how Iron Man learned humility and it stuck? Oh wait...

[@skycendre257]

@@ShadowSonic2 He probably means that Iron Man often does fail, is very criticized and called out for being an egotist, and commits huge mistakes because of his personality and god complex (such as creating Ultron). From which yes, he grows up. To sum it up, Iron Man - or better Tony Stark - is a flawed human being, and his growth occurs both in single movies and in multiple entries in the MCU universe.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@skycendre257 But even by the end, he's still arrogant and stuck up. Not as bad as before, but still.

[@skycendre257]

@@ShadowSonic2 But still he grew quite a lot. Maybe not in a way you like, maybe you don't appreciate his personality, still it's a well rounded character with well developed pros and cons, which went through trial and error to get to the point where he ended. He didn't start as perfect to become even more perfect with the absolute impossibility to make mistakes.

[@mil.sek.]

You know what. This might be the calmest explanation of my feelings I have come across. Well done.

[@AbhijitBiswasDBZ]

When did movies need to prove that men won't accept strong femald characters? We thrive on those, even in real life. Most of us have experienced our mothers standing up for us as kids, our partners having our backs when nobody is, very strong characters those are. Then there's so much more to talk about actually. We absolutely and obviously want that on screen but feminism is all about men always being on fault and women never doing anything wrong ever! So intentionally make bad movies and blame guys for not liking it is the way to go...

[@ShadowSonic2]

"We absolutely and obviously want that on screen" Videos like this and anything by Geeks and Gamers say otherwise.

[@Kesiif]

Strong women are more attractive than weak bitchy arrogant women.

[@vibing6530]

@@Kesiif their appearance don't matter

[@ItsBritneyBitch1]

The last two things you said especially is FACTS! 👏🏼

[@multilolist]

That is not what feminism is about. It makes me sad that people think that. Most feminist are for equality for both. When people will finally understand that nobody can win in a war opposing men and women. It makes no sense. Don't let people who use the argument only to make more money, be the one on which you base of what feminism is about.

[@512TheWolf512]

You can't write a good female character if you're an awful writer

[@poyi1013]

Eugene InLaw they could~ but then there won’t be so much talk about this movie... the end game is in 6 weeks~

[@RRRRRRRRR33]

Or if the original character is also awful. The MCU is performing miracles with third rate characters since day 1, Iron Man for example, the character was nothing before Downey Jr. There are some characters that are even bellow the third rate status, like the guardians of the galaxy and miss marvel. Saved by the F4 and all their relatives, some small doses of Thanos, etc.. the marvel cosmic universe is not that good. Gunn literally performed a miracle with his take on the guardians, a very strong foundation that thor and thanos took advantage later. But, it is inevitable... they were bound to commit a mistake sooner or later, these characters are too weak to become certain hits all the time. Miss Marvel is mediocre in the comics, the movie just expose that even more. It's that simple, everybody believed guardians of the galaxy would end up as a total disaster. In all the logical sense... but no, it was a success. Now miss marvel arrived to balance things, to show that miracles should be something rare, lol Luckily the MCU will get the F4 and the X-men back, maybe they can take the charge now after the reboot. If they didn't had those, idk man... no way in hell captain marvel and dr strange can carry the burden like Downey did single-handedly.

[@m.ipopescu1219]

Awful characters have value also.

[@RRRRRRRRR33]

@@m.ipopescu1219 That's aquaman, lol Reis and Johns made great stories about him in the new 52

[@robinbrown6530]

Well accidents do happen and it usually results in what most people call one hit wonders. And then there are writers that excel at certain aspects of writing but fail at others. Maybe you can write a good female character but can't write a cohesive plot to save your life. George Lucas often came up with genius ideas but his execution was piss poor. Just look at the original cut of the first star wars movie. It is all over the place and makes no sense. His wife and a few others on the project cut and edited the scenes into a cohesive product and in all honesty saved the movie that spawned the trilogy and the George Lucas empire. The biggest problem with the prequel trilogy is that Lucas didn't have those people to keep him in check because he thought his experience was enough to make the judgement calls at that point in his career. Turns out he was wrong and we got Jar Jar as a result. Jar Jar could have actually been a great idea but there was no one to say "Hey, lets cut this part from the movie. It is not funny, just stupid." Does it make him a bad director? Not to me. It just means he needed more help and expertise than other, perhaps better, directors and did not actively seek it. There is a lot of space between good and awful and even more space between good and great. This is why I think we should be careful saying things like "If X is true/false then Y is always the case" because more often than not there are shades of gray in the spectrum of whatever we are talking about.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

I wish George Carlin had lived longer. I would LOVE to hear the guy go on a rant about the shit we have going on in today's world.

[@jasondyrkacz8270]

We do have Bill Burr having George Carlin moments.

[@TheMoose126]

I think they killed him cuz he was telling ppl the truth

[@ertymexx]

He would probably hand it to both sides of the fandom though. ;-)

[@youknowyoufuckedupright3058]

That's why we still have Dave Chappelle.

[@LearnedSophistry]

Mason Dahr they shot him with the CIA heart attack gun early on in his life. Killed him way too early. I’m just grateful they haven’t shot Noam Chomsky or others with it yet

[@endernightblade1958]

Can we all agree that Ahsoka is best girl? Ok? Ok.

[@liawinter5245]

deal. one of the few female characters i've ever genuinely enjoyed and loved.

[@dezmondphillip8263]

Agreed

[@jasonball3496]

Ender Nightblade She's so great.

[@horseface1038]

yes but asaaj is pretty awesome too they're both my favourite

[@konewhatsthenamespolicy6308]

Ender Nightblade only if we have Ventress in the running

[@BigCash-wt3jj]

When it comes to female characters I always think of the Wonder Woman ball room scene. She carried herself with such grace and beauty, while also being ready to dominate anyone that could have stood between her and her goal.

[@gabymoekoe]

Its Kenzybro Agreed, that is indeed a moment that showcases her as a great character, BUT it shouldn’t be the ONLY blueprint for a good female character. if it were, then it means they need to be graceful _and_ beautiful on top of being powerful, to be considered a good, strong character. That’s not true at all. A lot of female characters are great without having to be “feminine” (graceful/beautiful). Just like in real life, people are diverse, and there are women who are graceful & beautiful, but there are _also_ those who are neither, yet they are equally amazing and strong in their own ways.

[@danieltatar7575]

I think there’s an interesting line there. If a character is void of feminine traits (doesn’t necessarily have to be beauty or even grace) I don’t think you can say she’s a great “female character”. She’s a great character who happens to be female. Ellen Ripley from Alien is in this category imo. A character like that is completely fine and can be amazing (obviously), but if you think the character being female is important to the role / moral of the story / setting, I think she should absolutely have some feminine traits (again, not talking about looks).

[@JulesLife]

Thank you for not saying "could of".

[@blackonyx66]

@@gabymoekoe name some. Not talking shit, just want examples to make my argument stronger

[@ShadowSonic2]

Wonder Woman is more of a Sue than Captain Marvel ever could be.

[@Kris-Kash]

Before TLJ, SW has had some of the best characters in any fictional universe ever, from Jyn Erso to Ahsoka Tano to Sabine Wren to Mara Jade to Mon Mothma to Padme Amidala to Leia Organa herself. Can't we just get more of that? Rey even had potential to be as great as these characters in TFA... and then TLJ happened. Thanks, RJ

[@AndreNitroX]

I thought Rey had potential, she was boring and super lucky, but still had potential. Nothing, character development couldnt have fixed, but she only got worse with the absence of character development.

[@jonlucchargo8867]

KrisKash I agree TLJ derailed all characterization

[@Deuteromis]

Nah This started with J.J. dude, Rey was already poorly written in Ep7 J.J. does not get a pass at all, even with TLJ, he was an executive producer on that film. He knew what Rian was doing.

[@Kris-Kash]

@@Deuteromis You may be right with JJ, and it may take years for a tell all book to come out which if anyone is still interested in SW will be interesting. My opinion though is that the few mistakes in E7, including with Rey, were not the fault of JJ, but were more likely a fault related to Lucasfilm leadership decisions, for instance not making a cohesive 3 movie arc, within a set of existing 9 movie mythology. I think JJ was told to restart the franchise, and create interest in the following 2 movies, and stop.... And then RJ will take it from there. And then RJ got the ball, but he was way over his head, could not figure out how to handle his part in a 9 movie saga, and had to opt for the lazy way out of every character and plot decision in the entire movie. RJ's bad fan fiction TLJ theory, sucks. Trevaro probably had great ideas, but Lucasfilm had already bet on RJ, and so he was out. And now here we are, with JJ left to pick up the pieces from Lucasfilm leadership's mess.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Remove Jyn Erso from that list, she is totally forgettable, nearly everyone else, I agree with though.

[@sergeantarchdornan3013]

Random sjw: “You hate the last Jedi Because they have strong female characters” Me using the same logic: “your a Nazi because you support animal rights and hitler did also”

[@IgorSalaj3578]

Me: Strong female characters MY ASS!!! Your pathetic attempts to push strong female characters only sully the already existing strong characters who happen to be female

[@thealrighty3534]

Do you like water? Well Hitler also drank water. You are a nazi because you drink water and also breathe air. GUESS WHAT ELSE! Hitler was born. So if you were born too, you are Hitler.

[@donjoe7529]

sooo annoying, one similarly happened to me recently... 'wait, you LIKE this? dont you know SOYmilk is one of the ingredients? you must be a liberal... you support socialism! i bet you want to vote for bernie and aoc'

[@theexplodingdiamonddominic9124]

Are you the club penguin is kil guy

[@OXY187]

WHERE IS YOUR POWER ARMOR? MORONNN!!!!

[@UncleMikeDrop]

A lot of us are just getting sick of these female characters "showing the boys how it's done" as if the "boys" they're showing haven't been doing it for decades. The very small group that may have "harassed Kelly Marie Tran on platforms that all have mute, block, and report features available, is irrelevant. It doesn't make the movie any better. Jake Lloyd got WAAAY more hate thrown his way after The Phantom Menace, but nobody defends that IP by saying "toxic fans must hate young boys". Ahsoka Tano is the strongest bit of evidence that crushes the shill narrative. It's one thing to be a beloved character nearly from the beginning, but Ahsoka went from being OPENLY REVILED to becoming a FAN FAVORITE over the course of her character arc. I still think they wrote her out of the Clone Wars the way they did so that she could avoid order 66 because too many fans would have been very very angry if she was killed off in that show. I know I would have been rather miffed if they killed a rough in that show.

[@sillypuppy5940]

As if real life they would be anywhere near somewhere strenuous or dangerous "showing the boys how it's done." No, as usual, the boys would be doing it all. And we're told that these characters are inspiring role models? Well, why don't they get inspired and join the air force? No, it's fantasy, and they should stop trying to present it as anything else.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

>>> Jake Lloyd got WAAAY more hate thrown his way after The Phantom Menace, but nobody defends that IP by saying "toxic fans must hate young boys

[@bigsigh4061]

Isn't that just because those toxic fans were once young boys? Ahsoka Tano is just evidence that if you allow a character that you hate at the beginning to develop then she can become a beloved character. The fans didn't like Ahsoka for the first couple of seasons. Which means you just might love Rey by the end of Episode 9.

[@eggsnspam]

@@bigsigh4061 no... very obvious problems with Rey character in Episode 7 that continued to Episode 8. Remember that the tv episodes have something that movies cannot compete with - extra time to develop a character. Movies have to get it right off the bat, especially the foundational first movie they appear in. You want to be a movie writer/director/etc., those are the stakes.

[@bigsigh4061]

@@eggsnspam But the original comment was basically saying that Ahsoka is proof that men can like female characters and even said they didn't in the beginning. The obvious conclusions is that you might just love Rey considering how much hate there is. .

[@tennkenobi]

Agree with most of your comments sir. Add to this the way Luke Skywalker has been used in the first two sequel films- nothing in ep 7 and unrecognisable in ep 8 and you have the perfect storm. Sullying the heroic childhood character of thousands of 40+ males (the hardcore of the fandom) + creating new hero that appears more powerful without any journey is bound to cause complaint.

[@AndreNitroX]

All 3 of my sisters are big Star Wars fans and even they were disgusted at what Luke had become and bored with Rey.

[@dannytafrodon]

Excellent comment

[@dathmach8745]

I'm fine with Strong Female Characters, not Mary Sues

[@SkullCrusher-xk5wp]

I've a problem with both because 'strong female character' gives off the impression that, that is all the character is. Just strong. That's it. There doesn't seem to be room for the character to experience being scared, angry, helpless or anything else. As a woman myself, I'm not saying I want damsels in distress, but I don't want the complete opposite of that either. I want female characters who embrace their 'human' side. The same thing can be said for males too. And for Mary Sues/Marty Stus, I mean, everyone hates them

[@dathmach8745]

@@SkullCrusher-xk5wp I mean, is that even a character? Someone who's always 'strong' doesn't seem like they have emotions. Definitely agree with you that those kinds of characters need work.

[@SkullCrusher-xk5wp]

@@dathmach8745 yep. Women cry. Women get pissed off. Women feel like they are out of their depth. Women get frickin injured (this makes me mad whenever a female character gets her ass handed to her, but comes away with a tiny scratch on the side of her cheek, like wtf)! And you should be able to show all that if it makes sense with the narrative, yet they don't and it's maddening.

[@tiagogalvao654321]

How is captain marvel a mary sue and how does she differ from every other superhero in terms of bullshit

[@Naveication]

@@tiagogalvao654321 she has no flaws, can do everything, is superior to everyone else in the movie both emotionally and physically, always does the right thing, no real motivation other than "this is what a good person would do" But she isn't the only one in the superhero franchise. Take a look at Ironman for example, first film was very well recieved by fans, Tony had his struggles, had flaws, was both emotionally and physically at his limit and got back on his feet with a lot of hard work. Great film, people loved it Now look at the second film. Tony was at the top the whole film, a rich, successful man who has everything, no more struggles, and his only few character flaws are only used for comedy relief. He had no issue with the villain (who was also badly written) and surprise surprise the movie flopped real hard Another good example is the matrix trilogy. First movie was amazing, everyone liked it, Neo was a regular emotional human going through his own journey of discovering this new perspective on his world. Working hard to get stronger, both failing and succeeding. He has his flaws, he struggles multiple times. Then second and third film: Hurr Durr Neo is basically God now and can do anything. And surprise surprise, the films were bad, who would have guessed it. The Superman franchise is also problematic and a lot of people don't like him because he can do virtually anything. But atleast the writers are aware of the problem in that case and try to give him some emotional baggage. And sometimes they can kinda pull it of and other times it's just silly and forced (Marthaaaa) Both Captain Marvel and Rey aren't depicted as humans, but as gods without flaws. They are at the top of their universe. Barely anyone can step up to them and additionally they always do the right thing, no mistakes, every conflict is just a matter of time when it's resolved and not a matter of if it can be resolved because they're perfect. They're Mary Sues just like many other characters in many other bad films.

[@sophiabeebeeboo4579]

Honestly a character I’ve always thought as a ‘strong female character’ is Coraline Jones from Coraline (both the book and movie but I’m gonna narrow in on the movie cuz I know it better) Coraline Jones persistently throughout the film stays focus on her goals... hardly ever getting sidetracked by other things and people despite there being many things and people that actually, literally distract her. She remains focused on saving her parents when she believes they’ve been taken by the other mother in the other world. And how she’s so friggen brave for going into the other world and doing whatever it takes to get them back. Do you have any idea the f***ing courage you have to have to go into another world you know you cannot trust and face countless frightening situations and people to save your parents? Especially since she’s only 11 years old and just the night before she was feeling lonely and isolated and lost and confused and was sulking in her pillow wondering if she’d actually even make it out alive and see her parents ever again? I mean... like damn. Also just her personality too. She is full of it...personality that is lol. She is vibrant and dreamy and sarcastic and effortlessly humour full. A strong character in general always has depth to them and layers and Coraline has all of that. She has a sort of charm to her that almost instantly makes you like her. She’s brave, she’s determined, she’s resilient and you know what? She’s introverted. Why is it that being introverted is some sort of flaw that the main character needs to over come in stories? It’s not. It’s simply a personality trait. Coraline Jones was seriously a big role model for me when I was 7. She taught me how bravery works: how you can be terrified and that’s okay, it’s how you push that fear aside and go through with it to protect the ones you love that counts, to figure for what you believe in, for what’s right She taught me the difference between right and wrong. She taught me that it’s okay to not be perfect and to make mistakes. I seriously think Coraline Jones is a very strong female character and a strong character overall. And that’s just because she’s flawed and layered and you learn something from her not as a character but as a human being. And that seriously is the greatest gift a reader, viewer, whatever can receive from that someone.

[@ARandomSpace]

Actually, Coraline's young age may have prevented her from being too scared of going into the button world. Kids are crazy.

[@darthbretticus9951]

Mara Jade is a Million time more interesting than any new female character in Disney Star Wars

[@serenadesilhout]

Unfortunately she's not canon in the new Disney universe. Killing Luke makes it hard to see where her character fits here.

[@elementer5617]

@Robert Ortiz-Wilson Thrawn in Rebels actually was very accurate to the Legends Thrawn. The only difference is that Legends Thrawn was more intimidating and his history is different.

[@elementer5617]

@Robert Ortiz-Wilson Come on man. You can at least appreciate his theme music and Lars Mikkelsen's performance, right? Thrawn is like the Ernst Stavro Blofeld of the Star Wars universe. Still, he was accurate to the source material. Timothy Zahn himself was even impressed with how they handled the character. At the core, Thrawn is a gifted tactician and an artist who values intellect over brutality. That is pretty much what we saw in Rebels. The Legends version is superior, but the new canon version is still faithful enough. The way they handled Thrawn makes me even believe Filoni can be trusted with re-canonizing Mara Jade, another brilliant character by Zahn. Or even Kyle Katarn.

[@ggt47]

YES!!!

[@ravenousfire7798]

Mara was one of my favorites. Admiral Daala and Jaina were also good.

[@MKDumas1981]

The problem with modern female characters is that they are usually perfect. They’re good at everything for no reason. Rey can use the Force like a Jedi master with almost no training, and no Force sensitivity that we’re aware of. Michael Burnham knows the jobs of everyone on the ship better than everyone on the ship - as it is, Captain Pike seems to have to get her permission to captain. In Ghostbusters 2016, the women only failed if the plot required it, or if they were using it for comic effect. There was no work involved in Carol Danvers becoming Captain Marvel; she just stood in front of a jet engine. Now, she’s the most powerful being in the MCU, possibly more powerful than Thanos. What Hollywood doesn’t realize is that this is showing their own sexism, because they’re saying that a woman can’t become great on their own, and can’t work to become great; she has to be born amazing, and has the power of plot, as Michael Burnham seems to be the only one who knows any of the answers to the problem, or that Captain Marvel has whatever powers the plot needs her to have, to show how amazing she is. They also have to trumpet and crow about how diverse and progressive they are, for what amounts to hijacking a male-dominated franchise, and forcibly putting women in it, as if they won’t survive in their own franchises - you see how badly Alita: Battle Angel was received, and how much people hate Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley. It’s as if they can’t just let the work speak for itself. They have to shine the Woke Signal into the air, so that the SJW Brigade knows they’re woke, even though the SJW Brigade isn’t the group, for the most part, that shows up to movies, or that pays six dollars a month to watch one show that barely puts in an effort to be good, and tries to sail along on diversity and on blaming “toxic fans” for their failure. It should be noted that “fan” is short for “fanatic”. We are, not only, devoted to our favorite franchises, but, we are also devoted to their quality. When they are hijacked to promote a Woke agenda (cue the “LGBT-1000”, because Linda Hamilton playing the same character for forty years - who, I might add, is held up by ordinary people as an example of a strong female character - just ain’t Woke enough), the quality invariably suffers. We are here to protect our fandoms, with our words, and our wallets. #withoutrespectwereject

[@ShadowSonic2]

Alanna Solo in the Star Wars EU killed Sith at age 6. Burnham sounds no different from Spock. The original Busters only failed if the plot required it. Carol got her powers same as Scarlet Witch did. They're both mega powerful.

[@claytoncourtney1309]

I would say that Kirk also knew everyone's job on the ship. He would sometimes push people out of the way to do their job.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@thiagogameplays6805 Because Ren wasn't that powerful and was wounded.

[@RoseyRedCringes]

Okay but Wonder Woman though? Amazing strong character

[@CASSIE_COLE]

Cringing Rose sure, she needed Steve Trevor’s sacrifice to unleash her full power but whatever

[@willdg8108]

Well the ending made me fucking die

[@EcthelionOTF]

Orionsbelt isn't that what every hero needs, something to push them over the edge and push themselves to the limit. It is a team effort. No one can solve everything on their own no matter how much you want them too. Women need help just like men do. Superman always wins the fight when one of his friends comes into harms way. No different than Wonder Woman

[@Lostforface]

Wonder Woman was more sjw then Captain Marvel

[@scorxx6624]

@@Lostforface totally, wonderwoman was shit

[@quintincastro7430]

Just make a good story with good characters and people will watch it

[@joshuabrown9398]

Just in the marvel movies its easy to name likable and baddass female characters. Widow, Scarlet witch, Valkrie, Maria Hill, The Wasp etc

[@quinreimer5906]

And gamora and nebula! Don't forget them

[@joshuabrown9398]

@@quinreimer5906 yeah very true

[@hartlandmckeown3170]

They were really on a role until Captain Marvel came out :-/

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@hartlandmckeown3170 Oh grow up.

[@teebee8141]

Marvel just never made a wonder woman and now they are trying force one instead of developing one because it would take too long. They've made good female characters but not many powerful stand alone characters. When you think of DC it's like batman, superman, wonderwoman, the rest of the jla and teen titans . Marvel's characters captain America, iron man, hulk,thor,before the mcu alot non comic heads didn't know the characters.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

Great, great comments with which I totally agree! The problem with Rey was never the fact that she's a woman, but that she was a very, very, very badly written character with an agenda behind his presence in the movie. Millions of men, including me, love strong female characters in movies: Ripley in Aliens, Sarah Connor in Terminator, Ahsoka Tano in Star Wars, Jyn Erso in Rogue One, Leia and Padme in Star Wars, Alita in Battle Angels, etc. We want strong female characters, but do it right way and for the right reasons.

[@AndreNitroX]

I actually wanted a female Jedi to be the lead, but I wanted someone like Ashoka, or even Mara jade, but instead we get Scarlett jos character from “ Lucy”, a god like political device, not an interesting character.

[@zebbleganubi723]

"behind his presence in the movie" ...found the misogynist

[@nowyuosee109]

For me, the term “great female characters” makes me think of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Call me cheesy but as a woman, watching Buffy kick ass but still remain relatable was a really (forgive me for using this word) empowering experience. And that’s not to forget Willow, who was powerful but loveable.

[@andrewbellavie795]

No, dont apologize; Buffy is a strong character. Another good example to add to the list.

[@Bonez0r]

@@andrewbellavie795 As long as you're making a list, add Geena Davis in The long kiss goodnight. I love that movie.

[@anibalmatheusg2089]

No need to say sorry that is a great example

[@spenserdenovich1678]

She was written very well and also happened to be a female. I think one of the reasons captain marvel and Rey were so disliked was because they were made to be strong female characters instead of female characters who over came adversity and became strong and someone women and even men can inspire to and be a strong person and someone with character.

[@musikmakerman]

Yes indeed buffy had depth of character and i love she faces things outside of just being a Kick Ass vampire slayer a well written inspiring character by far 😊

[@kityhawk2000]

As a man I know nothing about being a woman, but I'm assuming that most women don't have power, privilege and respect handed to them on a silver platter. Brie Larson did an interview where she talks about how hard it is to be a woman in Hollywood, and presumably many women have to struggle and fight very hard to be at the peak of their professions. But she is playing a character who doesn't have to struggle at all (apart from that brief falling down montage). Any time CPT Marvel needs more power she's is granted it. She becomes the most powerful character in the MCU barely breaking a sweat. To say this is representative of women seems strange to me as I doubt many women's struggles to the top are as easy overcome as CPT Marvel's

[@TheSurrealist.]

Yeah it’s called free food.

[@cheerbabeF17]

Here's why I love Captain Marvel. When a man told her to fight him without her power to "prove" she was really "better" than him, she blasted him in the face. She didnt hold back and lose a fight so she could play by imaginary and arbitrary rules to make a man feel good about himself.

[@cheerbabeF17]

@European Colonist I'm not. I was excited for that moment in theater. I (as a woman) grow up around boys and men who'd change the rules the moment I was besting them so that I could "prove" I was truly better than them despite clearly being better. This moment was great because it perfectly represented men trying to move the goal line on women and a woman saying no.

[@mish375]

@@cheerbabeF17 Except that Captain Marvel had no character arc or struggle. It would have had more weight if she she had an arc like that but she didn't apparently. Even in Endgame she was so arrogant in her short scenes and OP that she was pretty much the epitome of everything wrong with the strong female trope that I worried they were going to do. Couple that with the actress's massive ego, and it just makes her further unlikeable.

[@Missingno_Miner]

Tbh coming from Brie Larson, I dont feel any of the sympathy she is trying to get. She's an narcissistic piece of shit. Just about any other actor or actress, I would feel sympathy for, but Larson? No. She doesnt deserve it.

[@carlrood4457]

I think Rey suffered so much in TLJ due to Rian Johnson's desire to "defy expectations" for its own sake. Things you could interpret in TFA as being part of a larger story were reduced to mere coincidence or dropped altogether. Rey was living on Tatooine's armpit, Jakku. So was the the old guy who happened to have the last piece of the map to Luke Skywalker. She'd been left there as a young girl by, presumably, her parents for unknown reasons. She believes they will return. Anakin's old light saber called to her. They even made her interesting enough to be scared and run away from "the call". Being a Jedi scared her, while being a smuggler under Han Solo didn't. Rey shows advanced Force abilities, as if she'd been trained and forgot somehow R2 is dormant for years and "wakes up" when Rey gets there. It can't be the map piece, because BB8 arrived with that earlier. These seem like pieces to a puzzle, but Rian Johnson says no. Rey is magically gifted and the other stuff should be ignored. If Luke had left with no intention of ever returning (even if the fate of the galaxy and his loved ones was at stake), why was there a map and why was it split. Normally, you use a map to get where you're going and you bring it with you. The only reason to leave it behind is if you WANT someone to follow, but TLJ Luke acts as his goal was to just be a green milk swilling hermit the whole time. As a result, Rey goes from someone with a mysterious past on a quest to find out who and what she is to obscenely powerful wizard girl.

[@randomperson8571]

Wow I can't believe I found a person on the internet who is on the same wavelength as me where Rey is concerned! Yes to everything! She was so interesting in TFA. Nobody had a problem with her (well, maybe problems with her being a little overpowered, but from what I could tell most of it was forgiven because she at least functioned like a human being back then) until TLJ came out. Then suddenly everyone's calling her "Ma-rey Sue" and mocking her. It's because that movie made her, as you said, an obscenely powerful wizard girl who had no flaws and could do no wrong, EVEN THOUGH she definitely makes poor choices and is prone to errors in TFA. Almost everything that happened in TLJ contradicted what was set up in TFA, and instead of attempting to mend the problems in TFA (for instance, Rey's OP-ness), TLJ just made them 100x worse.

[@rra7490]

Great explanation, I had no idea what was going on with Rey, so lost. Visually cool movies, that’s it for me.

[@15Seili]

I like your point about Rey having great combat powers and intelligence (she can even manipulate one's mind on her first try) without even knowing where it came from. It all pointed to a deeper narrative, to a connection to Luke or the old jedi guard or maybe she was trained in the old Empire by none other than Darth Vader himself before he saved her by putting her out of sight of the Empire. BUT NOPE. Because shes a whamen and the message that EVERYBODY can be a Jedi made her one of the most horribly written characters.

[@hayleybartek8643]

There's an old rule about how you don't show or mention anything that isn't important. Even red herrings can be important.

[@rra7490]

Hayley Bartek What do you mean? I dont understand.

[@Othello484]

As a Christian, theologically Carlin was correct. If God causes someone to win then by definition he caused the other guy to lose. It follows logically.

[@ohiostate7382]

Yet it doesn't follow logically that God helps teams win Games. Team A beat team B because Team A was more prepared.

[@devinbradshaw9756]

Joe Pesci always wins

[@ciobrombe825]

@@ohiostate7382 But god wanted Team A to be more prepared... It's ex post logic, which is no logic at all. If I were god I'd destroy whoever presumed to talk for me. That would be logical.

[@ohiostate7382]

@@ciobrombe825 Yet the is a weak argument. It assumes that the results of meaningless games are important to God.

[@ciobrombe825]

​@@ohiostate7382 Also, it assumes a god

[@derrabbit7289]

We have Selene from the Underworld series, Alice from Resident Evil, Asoka Tanoe from the Clone Wars, Alice from Alice in Wonderland, Aleeta Battle Angel, and on and on.... We have so many good female lead heroes out there that both men and women love. If a female character fails, it’s not cause we hate wamans. It’s cause they weren’t well written, failed to act, or...spouted hatred and politics to the point we got turned off to the point we will not give the movie a chance. Cause we are sick of the politics!!! We just want a good story and a good movie!!!

[@Yellowdigigod]

Der Rabbit Disney also already has Mulan too!

[@randomfactsthatdontmatter3466]

@@Yellowdigigod one of my favorite animated movies.

[@gottlichhg]

RE and underworld are horrible B movies with horrible acting. I am positive the next iterations will be just as bad. I will watch them and cringe but will still enjoy because of pure nostalgia.

[@rra7490]

Mulan was full of politics, it’s literally about a war. Star Wars is all about politics, fighting wars, helllooo. It’s not the politics, its the blatant cash grabbing and not even trying to write good characters and just going for the special effects and make sequels and prequels...

[@KrimzonFlygon1]

Eww, no, not Alice. The Resi series has Claire, Jill, and Ada. Part of me wants to say Sheva, but she’s not nearly on their level.

[@tosh40638]

TLJ doesn't actually portray strong female characters. Sure it has characters that are strong with the force (Rey and Leia) or in positions of power (Holdo) but they aren't emotionally strong people. Rey forgets that Kylo Ren murdered his own father in front of her as soon as she saw him shirtless. She then had to go see him because she suddenly feels a connection to him. What does this say about women? Then we have Holdo. She doesn't tell anyone what her plan was because.... she's angry with Po? That results in a mutiny in a very critical time. And it wasn't just Po that mutinied either. So it's not just Po she kept out of the loop, there were others. She killed morale on her ship at a critical time, which resulted in a mutiny. Then we have to consider Holdo and Leia's plan to go to Helms Deep. The movie tells us it's a good plan, but is it? Something like 90% of the Resistance dies, and the only reason they all didn't die is because a man Luke Skywalker shows up to help them escape. Now we need to consider Po's plan. It might have face everyone if it weren't for the fact that Rose illegally parked on casino planet. And besides that, Finn was attempting to save everyone and is prevented from prevented from doing that by Rose, because of her feelings. So this movie portrays women as being unable to control their feelings in combat situations, making them or for that role. Now I don't believe women make for bad soldiers and bad leaders because they can't control their emotions. But this is exactly what was put on screen in TLJ. But Disney was very successful in getting out ahead of the issues of the movie and controlling the narrative. They made sure anyone that disliked the female Chargers in their movie would immediately be labelled a misogynist. In this way they avoided the criticism that they put out a movie that portrays women negatively. Which is exactly what they did. In some ways I have to admire Disney's ability to spin doctor this. They made a movie were women are compromise by their emotions and make objectively bad decisions because of it, and not only were able to control all criticism on that, but they slanted so that any criticism about them portraying women poorly is labelled as sexist. So for those of us that actually wanted to see string women in Star Wars and are disappointed that we didn't get that in TLJ, we aren't even allowed to express that disappointment for fear of being labeled a misogynist.

[@t3jf]

@TofAnimation affirmative action put them in charge I guess. Wasn't Han the general in Return of the Jedi but then they made him this clueless idiot in Force Awakens.

[@youngsmitty347]

There are some good female characters in the new Star Wars canon; Hera Syndulla, Rae Sloane, and everyone's favorite Jedi Togruta, Ahsoka Tano. They each have a personality, character traits, and beliefs & ideals that can make people identify them (and even respect/sympathize with in some cases) without bringing gender into the equation. I am not sexist, nor do I judge anyone by the color of their skin or what genitalia they have; I judge them by their character. Characters like Holdo and Rose are bad because, to me, they're either there to force conflict into the film among the heroes when you can just think of another scenario that could work better (like trying to find that mole people say is the reason Holdo didn't tell Poe about the plan, and have Finn be the lead suspect because ex-Stormtrooper), or just there because they needed another main character to work with since Rey and Chewie were on the island with Luke. And I don't like Rey because she doesn't really learn anything; she barely got taught by Luke, and still thinks the Force is just a "superpower" to lift rocks and manipulate minds. Not to mention that she has no real trials to overcome since she beat Kylo Ren in TFA (even though he was wounded, but granted, Kylo was more than capable of beating a healthy Finn even with that hole in his gut), is skilled in the Force with self-training and no assistance, and seemed to have gotten over the reveal of her parents being nobodies real quickly. Even little Anakin from Episode I had his share of fuck-ups like the stalling of his podracer, letting R2 fly the ship for most of the battle, etc. He even didn't mean to hit the core that'd destroy the core ship, that was accidental. And that's not even talking about the emotionally-conflicted Anakin of Episodes II & III. I like characters like Hera and Ahsoka because they managed to overcome their own struggles while coming out with the battle-scars to prove their toughness. They aren't damsels in distress, but they aren't superpowered beings either. They're people, like you & me, who go through the struggles in life and have to learn to either overcome them or fall and let the bad guys win. That is what a strong female character (or rather, any good character in general) should be like.

[@alexslusher16]

Romeo & Juliet has Juliet who is a female who wanted to live with their loved one for the rest of their life. I only say that because you mentioned Rae Sloane from Lost Stars & the story of that mirrors Romeo & Juliet.

[@AndreNitroX]

Young smiitty, This is very well written, just how i like my fictional characters, male or female. It’s good to see a character struggle, because it makes their victories so much sweeter. Every rebel got killed in tlj, but they still celebrated and congratulated Rey at the ending!

[@samrobinson9110]

Beautiful.

[@techno639]

What do you think of Jyn Erso?

[@AndreNitroX]

@@techno639 jyn erso gets the job done, shes incredibly bland, but then again so is everyone else in rogue. What they should have done, was make jyn a violent rebel with saws group, and in the middle of the movie learn the error of her ways and become a true hero.

[@matthewadlard649]

This is where the sequel trilogy fails with Rey: In attack of the clones when Dooku tries to collapse a roof on Anakin and Obi Wan one of the most powerful light side Jedi in history Yoda struggles to hold all the pieces in the air. His brow is furrowed and the strain is clearly visible. It's a challenging activity for this powerful Jedi MASTER. Meanwhile in Last Jedi land Rey gets trickled on the hand with some grass and suddenly knows how to lift half a mountain without so much as breaking a sweat... It's just lazy writing. I loved Leia in the original trilogy, thought Mara Jade was a great character in the EU, warmed to Ahsoka in Clone Wars before having her as a top 3 character in the series, and wanted destperately for Phasma to be a fleshed out, interesting character (but had to read her book to see why she was a feared combatant.) Sadly the new female characters in the sequel trilogy just arent very interesting.

[@alfonsjones5798]

yup, same thoughts here. yoda was a master, but Rey can ater a few weeks alreaddy rewrite minds and all that, for what also Luke needed to learn so long. But nope, she is just a master, better than everyone.

[@darthcaedus9130]

Needs ripley and sarah connor in the thumbnail as the top tier strong, badass character ;)

[@thenomad4606]

Good idea.

[@dragon-tamer7956]

Agreed!

[@brettsteinbook5370]

Definitely awesome characters.

[@noobsunrider5843]

Hey, want a terrible image put into your brain? Imagine GOA shorts about Ripley or Connor... With them bullying everyone around and gunning down Xenos and T-1000s like it's no biggie while no one esle is of any contribution. You may now sceam internally (or externally if the pain is too unbearable.)

[@Xmetalfanx]

Sarah Conner ... esp in T2 .... was one of the best characters and was so bad-ass ... I loved it

[@wk3820]

Rey and Carol Danvers are not even characters. They're position statements with legs. It's hard to enjoy a movie starring a non-character.

[@ShadowSonic2]

Spoken like a true Weinstein. They have as much character as Wonder Woman.

[@saimircomani1339]

Schlock Jocks I have seen you on so many comments bashing wonder woman. Wonder woman is an actual character who grows throughout the movie. She has emotions and is not perfect. Diana thinks mankind is all good and simply under the influence of Ares but by the end of the movie she realizes that humanity is not only good and that bad people exist. She is not perfect like Captain Mary Sue. While Carol never fails in the movie , has no personality, a character arc that is barely the focus of the movie. Brie Larson’s performance is the worst she has ever given. You don’t care about Carol because she doesn’t feel like a human. Her character arc is letting out her emotions but she never shows any emotions except a few smiles and a slightly shocked face.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@saimircomani1339 "Wonder woman is an actual character who grows throughout the movie" Naive woman child becomes slightly less naive woman child. Wow, profound. "She has emotions and is not perfect." So is Carol, but she's dealing with brainwashing that messed up her emotions. "Diana thinks mankind is all good and simply under the influence of Ares but by the end of the movie she realizes that humanity is not only good and that bad people exist." Actually, she turned out to be RIGHT about Ares being involved so I guess she's essentially perfect. "She is not perfect like Captain Mary Sue. " We're talking about Carol, not Steve Rogers. He's a Captain Sue if you get down to it. "While Carol never fails in the movie , has no personality, a character arc that is barely the focus of the movie." Neither did Steve Rogers, in his first film. "Brie Larson’s performance is the worst she has ever given. " She's playing someone brainwashed into being emotionless. How is she SUPPOSED to act? You hate Robocop too? "You don’t care about Carol because she doesn’t feel like a human." At the start, she isn't. "Her character arc is letting out her emotions" No, it's about her realizing she doesn't need to live by the Supreme Intelligence's commands and Yon-Rogg's standards. It's a humanist story of someone breaking free of the shackles they've been forced into.

[@samantaraafat8526]

Dude, you’re such a troll. If you like Captain Marvel and not Wonder Woman, that’s completely fine. But saying that’s Captain Marvel is an objectively good character and Wonder Woman isn’t is plain wrong and not true.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@samantaraafat8526 How is Captain Marvel objectively bad? I want to hear this.

[@ForzaMara]

Another thing that destroys their narrative is women. The moment they acknowledge the women who have a problem with these characters, is the moment they destroy their own argument. Which is precisely my experience when I comment on videos. I either get ignored or told to shut up because this discussion is "not about me". Ironically, for a company that wants to gain more female customers, they sure do like to ignore the ones who don't toe the party line. Inclusion only when it suits them I guess.

[@AndreNitroX]

I have 3 sisters who love Star Wars and hate the sequels, so whenever they hear all sequel haters are misogynists they just laugh.

[@Deuteromis]

Not all women dude, just the extreme female SJWs

[@eggsnspam]

I'm with you. I'm not white, not male, and yet I'm suddenly lumped in as a troll angry white male... I'm actually not surprised anymore as my type of women tend to be ignored when the narrative doesn't fit.

[@nuimee5884]

I don't even know how many times I've been told to "just admit you hate women and go" and... No? Sorry but I really like myself, thank you very much. These new wave feminists need to take a step back and focus on actual problems because they're turning the equality movement into a bad joke.

[@birdup6663]

The argument to counter that is you have internalized misogyny, or subconscious self-hatred beaten into you by the patriarchy. It sounds like parody, but it's an actual belief. I've seen this shit.

[@Laquia]

Its as if an independent strong female character can't have a weakness (being human). Because if she so as does have one weakness, she is not consider strong anymore. Just a helpless, weak, defenseless female character. Edit: What I wanted to say is, there's nothing wrong with a strong female character to have weaknesses as a human being. We all have them. Each and every one of us. Male and female. If Superman can have them, why can't Captain Marvel?

[@ginidmg8179]

Even Superman can bleed~

[@francreeps4509]

Because the feminists will say youre mysoginistic for representing women as human beings that make mistakes

[@Nighlocktheawesome00]

Yeah, Erza Scarlet is one of the strongest and most beloved characters I've seen in anime, and during season 2, we see her at her breaking point after Jellal is taken away.

[@thebadopinion580]

After watching Alita I realised I dont hate women. After the movie I was like damn, I wish I was a female battle cyborg.

[@TheftTone6]

Male Cyborgs are bulky and resilient. Female Cyborgs are Light and fast. Everybody knows this. Everybody.

[@thebadopinion580]

Yeah I dont wanna be big and bulky. Alitas flexibility incorperated in the martial arts was awesome.

[@sockgremlin9746]

That's what it's suppose to be like. You're suppose to feel pumped for the character, be included and feel for the character no matter the gender. I wish it was done for more female characters. I say this as a woman of color...as if that should matter.

[@philjpark]

It took you watching a movie 3 weeks ago to realize you don't hate women? WTF

[@mrsanatra1]

I never did hate women, i hate ''strong female characters'' because they arent strong they are just mary sue garbage. Alita, wonder woman, selen from underworld, kiddo from kill bill, Ripley from alien, THOSE are great characters

[@theartofmgtow6934]

And look at Scarlett Which in the MCU. Everyone, men included, love her while at the same time almost every universally hatted Captain Marvel.

[@fanofall4605]

Not really a butch of people hate her

[@nileverdeen3797]

Update: straight men hate her now

[@Bananaskin101]

Well written characters don't need a gender driven marketing campaign. Take for instance Hayao Miyazaki, pretty much all his films feature a strong female lead but they are all well written with flaws and they develop over the course of the story through their struggles. Disney, which I believe markets his films in the West should know better.

[@AndreNitroX]

Yes! Every time I start one of mayazakis movies, I’m introduced to a character that might appear as a simple girl, but as the story goes on I recognize her as a well written intriguing character, and next thing I know I make fan art.

[@AndreNitroX]

@@joaquinmejia4717 They are all strong female characters, not because they have physical power, but because of their compassion and strength of will, that for me is a powerful female character.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

Please don't forget Katie Sackoff as Starbuck in BSG. I really was upset when they made Starbuck a woman .... then....I started watching the episodes and I was blown away. She was a really strong and great charater full of flaws and she was a big naughty too. I ended up loving her. I am a female and I can tell the difference between a good character and a Mary Sue.

[@anthonykeane4984]

Exactly i thought the same at first ewww Starbucks a girl . Then a few episodes in it did not matter one bit . Kate sackhoff was amaxing in the role and definitely deserves bigger roles from it . I was hoping she'd be playing captain marvel seems perfect for it

[@vivekkandasamy5317]

Isn't she the one that voices Bo Katan in Star Wars The Clone Wars?

[@Elerad]

I was never a fan of the original BSG, so I was completely indifferent to the character's gender change. I just loved so many of the characters in that show -- male and female -- because they had brilliant character arcs, going through massive changes due to the events they encountered, and they were all so exceedingly well-written and nuanced.

[@yankurph]

I always appreciated Amanda Tapping as Samantha Carter on Stargate SG-1 also. Strong, smart female who held her own on screen with good male actors. She didn’t need special treatment to fit in, she was just her character and it worked.

[@mugglescakesniffer3943]

@@yankurph Absolutely and remember in the first episode she says a line about genitals being in the inside and that she was as good and could give as much as she took. She also in a later episode said "who would say that it's so stupid" noting that from the eighties women were always saying these lines to justify themselves however some needed no justification and she was one of those people. Ripley was alluded to as "snow white" in Aliens by Vasquez and the medic. But she ended up being the real badass.

[@darkness21princess]

I am a woman, I am a feminist, Ray is not a feminist character. She did nothing to deserve her powers. Luke trained and worked hard to be a jedi, she is one with the force the same day she learns the force is real.

[@ellyqueen8504]

You are very smart then /s

[@darkness21princess]

Alucard Fahrenheit Tepes why you say "um, no"?

[@darkness21princess]

Alucard Fahrenheit Tepes haha OK. Yeah I was confused hehe.

[@meggrotte4760]

Yes, that is how I feel

[@vandegg]

darkness21princess The issue is that Rey is a seen as a bad character, and if she was a male character, and nothing else was different, Rey would still be seen as a bad character, but because some people are making this about sex, the entire fan base is being seen as misogynistic. By claiming that a character has to be a “good” character in order to be considered a “feminist character” you are just as bad as the people who are attacking her solely for being female. You are a huge part of this problem so you are either a very stupid feminist or a neckbeard troll.

[@abcd12346768]

They should make a female sith. That might be interisting.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Kazuki Yanai, oh I want to see that!

[@UberMangaka]

Plot twist. Rey becomes sith when she doesn't get her way and Kylo realizes he's taken his emotions way too far and reigns them in just enough to be a gray jedi and save the day.

[@austinosborne121]

Asaj ventress

[@azurai3934]

@@austinosborne121 I was just about to say that

[@thedarkknight9021]

@@austinosborne121 She is not properly a Sith, just a dark side user

[@GanonGhidorah]

To those who are claiming we hate women. "We don't hate strong female characters in movies...we hate YOUR type of strong female characters. You look at the differences between your movies and those that came before; what do you see? In the preceding movies, you have women who are fully developed characters; you believe that they are human beings, who gradually earn their strength and their right to be respected...In yours...you have literal nothing characters who were only ever born to be a political statement and/or talking point...And the audience sees that. You didn't think a moment about who this character is outside of making her "strong and independent" - which according to your view, not only means making her completely alone without any sort of "man" character to interact with...but literally disrespectful and even hateful of all men. Your characters are literally nothing but puppets...and we're far beyond puppet-shows."

[@bibleguy1207]

You are right.

[@christophermartin7658]

The sequel trilogy could have had three major female leads: Leia, Jaina Solo, and Mara Jade Skywalker; and a main villain who was female: Lumiya. And the fandom would have loved it!! Disney and Lucasfilm need to admit they made a major error in not following along with the previous source material!! Even if they didn't follow the stories exactly, they still could have used them as a guideline. Especially in terms of the main characters.

[@carlrood4457]

Actually, I disagree. You'd still have the same writers and directors who'd refuse to show any flaws with the characters. Look at "The Last Airbender". They had the perfect blueprint for how the story goes and f'd it up on a fundamental level. They deliberately made changes that broke the logic of the scenes they were filming, and did so with no self awareness. The point is that good characters and stories can be f'd up by people who don't care and/or don't know what they're doing.

[@christophermartin7658]

@@carlrood4457 very good point. You would need to have a writing and directing team that are all on the same page and work on all three movies. Free of any form of political or social propaganda. People go to movies like Star Wars to escape reality, not to be reminded of it.

[@NoCluYT]

Tbh, they kind of had to dismiss old canon, because they don't want to re-tell a story that most star wars fans already know. If they made a good sequel trilogy, nobody will talk about star wars Legends.

[@christophermartin7658]

@@NoCluYT but when you look at Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Ready Player One, etc., they had no problem sticking to already established and known stories and still making them interesting and appealing to viewers. But you are also right, if they actually created a good storyline for the sequel trilogy, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[@TheNN]

Your example of them intentionally pushing people to provoke them to prove their own narrative is a good one. Unfortunately what they do not seem to understand is that because they are all constantly being provocative like that, is that one day, someone's gonna push too far, and there's gonna be a tragedy from it. Not saying anyone should, just that eventually you push too far and too hard, and someone's gonna decide to go all the way. It'll be a tragedy when it finally happens, and IMO it WILL happen at some point, but these people just cannot leave well enough alone.

[@goodmind4940]

I may have gone too far in few places

[@muhaoai4693]

@@goodmind4940 Cue Captain America "I understood that reference" gif. But yeah, there was that case about the British lawmaker who was murdered by a pro-Brexit supporter. Naturally, the lying scumbags who pushed the whole "people who don't support Brexit hate Britain!" narrative suddenly went out of their way to decry how toxic the whole Brexit thing had become, never mind that they themselves were the ones who made it toxic in the first place.

[@HouseDracul]

Good.

[@Crurned]

Nah, this is not that serious, this is the nature of modern day Hollywood. It is likely someone or a small studio will step it up, do an awesome sci-fi, space opera or comic book film, and the next thing you know Disney will buy them and run it to the ground like everything they touch. I for one will sit and watch Disney running out of ideas and cash. The signs are everywhere, they are remaking Dumbo, Mary Poppins, and films made less than 20 years ago! It will be one point that Disney film division will go bankrupt and all they will have is their parks. I was surprised Marvel had such a good streak for 10 years, but all good things come to an end.

[@mar_speedman]

@JRPGFan20000 Empires rise and fall. Disney is destined to fall one day Edit: I can't believe I'm preaching for Disney's death, when ten years ago I was praising their creativity. Worst of, is I have no idea whether they changed, or if everything is clearer now

[@scottsaunders5453]

One example to also toss in with the movies you mentioned is Eowyn from 'Lord of the Rings.' Her killing the Witch King after proclaiming 'I am no man' got a big round of applause from everyone in the theater when I saw the movie.

[@IgorSalaj3578]

Agreed. Even Eowynn had struggles to become who she is now

[@ShadowSonic2]

If that happened now, the Anti-SJWs would cry about it and demand her head.

[@whyarewestillherejusttosuf1373]

@@ShadowSonic2 "If that happened now" Pal, it's still happening. LOTR is still widely watched and discussed. It literally won't end. And people still praise Eowyn, they still respect Galadriel just like they respect Gandalf, still adore Arwen, etc. It's not about the gender, it's about the character. Eowyn was working hard to kill that dang Witch King, she'd lost almost everything. The same goes for Arwen too, she sacrificed herself and all that. Heck, even the characters that weren't in the movies (like Luthien) is also adored. Even Tauriel, who's not in the book. I'd said it before and I'l say it again: it's not about gender, it's avout the character.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@whyarewestillherejusttosuf1373 Eowyn wasn't the lead, Galadrial was barely in the story, Arwen was barely in the story. Easy.

[@joemiller1057]

But that was actually relevant to the plot, she was told multiple times by theoden and other dudes she could not fight

[@seanboyd5242]

Who else can't wait for a sequel to Alita?

[@Audrey78871]

Yes!

[@candy-ass4915]

@@jmedrano704 The story was definitely set up for a sequel by the end. They teased the villain and ended the movie right afterwards.

[@RogerioCampanhol]

I do, very much and I'm not going to watch last Star Wars movie. I'm done with that. Disney ruined the saga.

[@Kaajman]

@@jmedrano704 they covered about the first 4 volumes of the manga

[@niki_99]

Yeah they're gonna have to make one because even casuals like me need to know what's going to happen there.

[@patriciaaustin4639]

I think all this crap started with Ryan Johnson.....becuz in the Force Awakens Ray was begining (to me) to be interesting. So many questions about her and clearly she had gone through some hardships. But then RJ got a hold of her and.....well not overly happy. Plus the business about Luke etc....So to me the real question is why.... why didn't Disney have Jj do all 3 movies at least the story would be consistent. Sorry not on topic I guess. I do think though its rediculas to think all men are female characters haters. ALL my men friends who love SWs love the bad ass females. But would add confused by Last Jedi...thanks for your great shows.

[@rhetro777]

TBH JJ didn't set these characters up very well either

[@GunManGunHand]

The end battle in the force awaken shook at me wrong, as well as how fast Ray got her powers. The movie was ok up until rey stops and turns kylos own abilities against him, then it started to go down hill. Dont get me started with J.J. I feel he is a over hyped director with a mystery box story problem, he always bring up questions and never answers them.

[@rosvel92]

Rey's unraw power will be explained, but Rian felt it would have been to cliche to give him the same related to someone origin of Luke. There will be an explanation, it just won't be related to parents.

[@GunManGunHand]

@@rosvel92 you hope its explained, it should have been explained 2 movies ago. It should have stayed true to good story writing, but what Rey has taught people is "hey it's ok, were all the bestest and we dont have to strive or struggle, everything will come out for you." This character is a prime example of the overconfidence character who finds there head in mud when a real challenge comes along because they never were tested, I real life people like this are eaten alive.

[@rosvel92]

@Greg Elchert Truth is The Last Jedi needed to delay the explanation, because it needed the whole film to explain the parents were not the reason. But, in truth only The Force Powers will be explained. The whole pilot mess is JJ Abrams mess and wil never be explained (JJ is worse than Rian Jhonsson in all honesty).

[@Redneck_Heathen]

How to make good female characters: Step 1 - make a good character Step 2 - make that character happen to be female How not to make good female characters: Step 1 - make the character female Step 2 - make that character happen to be good

[@lawrenceadriennevalero3633]

@Gabriella Maroney dont do *female* problem, do female *problem*

[@lawrenceadriennevalero3633]

@Gabriella Maroney something similar to that. A truggling parent having a hard time understand and interacting with her child.

[@patrickleighpresents749]

I think the biggest problem with Rey is that she's BORING. She is utterly dull, devoid of personality, and seems to lack any clear motivation. And those issues would not go away if you changed her into a guy. Seriously, if you just changed her chromosomes so she was a dude, Rey would still be boring, dull, devoid of personality, and lacking in any clear motivation. And, no, that finding her parents thing doesn't count BECAUSE SHE NEVER TAKES ANY PROACTIVE STEPS TO LOCATE THEM IN ANY OF THE FILMS. She has to have other people tell her things about them AT RANDOM. Sorry for the use of caps, but I can't use italics in these comments, so it's the only way I can emphasize things. Anyway, having the lead character of the new trilogy be female was not a bad decision, as far as I'm concerned. If anything, it was a necessary step to set the new films apart from the old ones. We've had two trilogies with men as the focus, so a female character was the right move. Seeing a female Jedi is fun and interesting. However, between the recycled plots (Starkiller base is just the Death Star all over again) and the hackneyed characters (who is Snoke and why should we be afraid of him? Anyone?) this new trilogy is just a cash grab on nostalgia that lacks any originality. I had hoped that a female protagonist meant that the series would be going in a new direction, but, nope, it's just rip-off after rip-off combined with pointless political posturing. At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Only idiots care about the chromosomes of the main character before they care about the quality of a protagonist. Rey is NOT a character. She's too dull to be a character, too nebulous. Luke and Anakin both had personalities. They had flaws. BIG flaws. That's what made them interesting. Rey doesn't even have those. She's just flawed in execution. I don't hate Rey because she's a woman. I don't even hate her. She's too boring to be worth hating. What I hate is being told I'm a bigot because I think she's boring and the new trilogy is written by hacks. And, frankly, I think this whole effort to paint critics as bigots is just an effort by the hacks to deflect attention to their hackneyed films.

[@Garek_George]

Patrick Leigh Presents well said

[@Deuteromis]

Nicely said, man it's baffling how some Rey defenders will try to say just how much Luke and Anakin are just like her and all they stuff she went through. You have to wonder if they actually are Star Wars fans, or just when was the last time they watched the movies. Though ironically Rey is just a rip-off of Luke in terms of Ep7, but Mary Sued.

[@drthmik]

Ahem... _italics_

[@gordonshuckrowify]

Yeah... I liked episode 7, as it set up the characters of Rey, and Snoke... But I feel like, instead of using Ep8 to weave those characters together, and flesh out a backstory for them, they decided "screw it, were doing a brand new thing"I'd like to have seen a backstory for Rey and Snoke that tied them to some other characters from past Star Wars movies. Continuity.

[@jasonbrown4526]

@@drthmik Oh snap!

[@JayVal90]

In defense of religious sports players thanking God for victory, that's not usually exactly what they mean. You thank God for allowing you to experience victory, not for giving you the victory. That makes an inward focus after a loss less of a contradiction.

[@Sorain1]

In fairness, that's a nuance that's hard to convey to anyone else.

[@inthediamondsky]

@@Sorain1 not really. It's easy to say "God allowed me to win". Because it's all in his will correct? If failing is in his will, it's an opportunity for us to grow. If winning is in his plan, he blessed us with more amazing opportunities. The moral? Win or lose, it's all a part of a bigger plan, especially to those who are religious.

[@jekikevin]

and it's also better than the other way around. saying that it was you who made victory possible and then blaming God if you lose. that's usually how a believer turns atheist, by not being thankful for what you have and be angry about what you don't have.

[@kilgoretrout4350]

They also often mean that they thank God for everything that got them into the ring, court, field, track in the first place. It is a way of expressing humility and showing their faith. (I dont believe in God but this is obvious even to me)

[@EFSpartan]

So piggybacking on that, sports thank god that helps them experience victory because they are being humble, that they do shout that they themselves were the cause. They do not want to be boastful. When they lose they take responsibility of their faults and really self-reflect on their actions. An internal locus of control

[@mbmmhm501]

Scarlet Witch, Nebula, Gamora, Black Widow, Valkyrie, and Okoye are all amazing female protagonists and it's insulting to us and them as actors/characters that the most bland, uninteresting character in all of the MCU is immediately going to overshadow them to stand on the hill that they built over the last 11 years.

[@Gamelover254]

I would KILL for a Scarlet Witch movie. Not even an origin story, just a movie about her like Spider-Man Homecoming but obviously more serious. What I like about her is that we’ve seen how much torture she has been through, losing so much and she still fights back and nearly killed thanos. Her aesthetic is just amazing but the great thing is that’s not all she has. She has proper motivation, emotion, an established arc & her powers are shown growing through the movies. Like honestly, she would be perfect for a movie. Shame she kinda got pushed aside to a mini tv series but I’m still glad we’re getting that at least. Wanda Maximoff ❤️

[@mbmmhm501]

@@Gamelover254 I know man. She's got a really underappreciated character arc. And Elizabeth Olsen is definitely an amazing actress and could carry a movie on her own if they gave her a shot.

[@ShadowSonic2]

""Scarlet Witch, Nebula, Gamora, Black Widow, Valkyrie, and Okoye are all amazing female protagonists" So you're fine with women as long as they're Secondaries?

[@johnstovall7503]

@@ShadowSonic2 You literally never understand ANYTHING anyone says. Talking to you in real life must be like punching a brick wall.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@johnstovall7503 I'm pointing out the stuff the OP doesn't want to admit. That those females named are all secondary characters and the real leading one gets criticized.

[@darkwolf9253]

That's the thing Thor, the Sequel Trilogy was never about Star Wars. It was about 'look our protagonist is a strong woman'.

[@ShadowSonic2]

Oh grow up.

[@user-ms5tq1dh7i]

@@ShadowSonic2 what?

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@user-ms5tq1dh7i The guys pissy over the woman lead