Richard Dawkins: No Civilized Person Accepts Slavery So Why Do We Accept Animal Cruelty? | Big Think

Richard Dawkins: No Civilized Person Accepts Slavery So Why Do We Accept Animal Cruelty?
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It's no small secret that we humans (apologies if you're a dolphin reading this) kill a lot of animals. Mostly for food, sometimes for sport. But Richard Dawkins posits here that we are doing this-at least on an evolutionary level-for largely unnecessary reasons. He brings an interesting argument to the table: animals might feel more pain than we do. This might make you think twice before chowing down on your next Chick-Fil-A but it might also make you think twice about swatting that spider... or even disciplining your pup. Animals, Dawkins suggests, might feel things several times worse than we ever can, simply because their biological makeup is less advanced than ours. Richard Dawkins' latest book is Science In The Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist.
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RICHARD DAWKINS:
Richard Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist and the former Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. He is the author of several of modern science's essential texts, including The Selfish Gene (1976) and The God Delusion (2006). Born in Nairobi, Kenya, Dawkins eventually graduated with a degree in zoology from Balliol College, Oxford, and then earned a masters degree and the doctorate from Oxford University. He has recently left his teaching duties to write and manage his foundation, The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, full-time.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Richard Dawkins: There’s quite a lot in Science in the Soul about the ethics of the way we treat nonhuman animals. I say nonhuman because, of course, we are animals we’re not plants, we’re not fungi, we’re not bacteria, we are animals.
There is a double standard in our ethics at present, which builds a wall around our own species Homo Sapiens, which is rather un-evolutionary if you think about the fact that we are close cousins of chimpanzees, if you think about the fact that we are descended from a common ancestor that lived only about six or seven million years ago.
If you want to erect a moral wall around our species and say, for example, that a human embryo, even a very beginning human embryo (long before it develops a nervous system) is somehow worthy of more moral consideration than an adult chimpanzee, then that is a rather un-evolutionary view point. If you look back in our ancestry, at what point would you draw the line?
Would you give... if there were Australopithecus-almost certainly our ancestor Australopithecus three million years ago-if you were to meet one if one had survived in the African jungle, would you give it the same moral consideration as the rest of us or would you say “No, no-that has the same moral consideration as a chimpanzee”?
If we look back in history a couple of centuries ago most people accepted slavery and nowadays, of course, that's a horrifying thought.
No civilized person today accepts slavery. And if you look back further still we had the appalling things that the Romans were doing in the Colosseum with spectator sport, watching people killing other people, lions killing people, regarding it as fun entertainment to take the children out to.
We’re certainly getting better, as Steven Pinker has said in his book The Better Angels of Our Nature, and Michael Shermer in his book on The Moral Arc, so we’re changing a lot and it’s sort of a fairly obvious thing to do to look in the future and say “What will our future descendants think when they look back at us the way we look back at our slave-owning ancestors with horror? What will our descendants look back in our time?
And I think the obvious candidate would be the way we treat nonhuman animals. My view would be that we want to avoid suffering; therefore the criteria would be “Can this creature suffer?” This is the criteria that Jeremy Bentham the great moral philosopher laid out: “Can they suffer?” There’s every reason to think that mammals, at least and probably many more, can suffer perhaps as much as we can pain.
If you think about what pain is for, biologically speaking, pain is a warning to the animal: “Don’t do that again.”
If the animal does something which results in pain, that is a kind of ritual death-it’s telling the animal, “if you do that again you might die and you might fail to reproduce.”
That’s why natural selection has built pain into our nervous systems, built the capacity to feel pain into our nervous ...
For the full transcript, check out bigthink.com/videos/richard-d...

[@bigthink]

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[@resgresg]

Smarter? Try dumber.

[@AdityaSharma-ni9rg]

Tears roll down from my eyes when he said non human species may feel more pain. What we've done to the world!!!

[@cosmicprison9819]

Aditya Sharma It's worse than that: The world made us do it (by forcing our ancestors to evolve with carnivorous instincts), so now we have those instincts inside of us like any other animal. And it has made us speciecist, like any other animal. Part of the uncomfortable insight into nature is the realisation that we not only have no reason to assume animals don't suffer like us, we also have no reason to assume we had free will in contrast to them. Every perpetrator is a victim of something, and every victim of its genetics and environment can easily turn into a perpetrator themselves. This is why so many people who like to engage in moral grandstanding hated the Joker movie.

[@damiancruz5207]

@Aero Dynamix If caring about the suffering of animals makes us dysfunctional, you are amazingly functional

[@KrwiomoczBogurodzicy]

@Aero Dynamix, Normal doesn't mean optimal. It means common or mediocre. I think you're better than that or at least have a potential to be better than that. Don't be a creep who eats flesh, milk and eggs of immiserated animals, be vegan instead.

[@blaketheshepherd]

The world was already brutal long before us, friend. Suffering is the default state of the world without humanity. Humans are the only thing we aware of that do anything to change it.

[@lambsonchopson4312]

“We will embarrass our descendants, just as our ancestors embarrass us. This is moral progress.” - Sam Harris

[@bobarends3229]

Sam Harris embarasses himself by still defending eating non-human animals. Dude needs to progress morally.

[@jhunt5578]

@@bobarends3229 I love Sam Harris and all but he is a moral hypocrite. He says he basis his ethics on wellbeing and suffering but eats animals. He says we should use science as a moral guide (as Dawkins just did) but refuses to do so. And that quote you used of his in this context, is not a logical or moral argument for suffering and killing non-human animals either.

[@jhunt5578]

​@fae ragan Well firstly there's not solid science on the sentience of insects though I would still give them the benefit of the doubt. And you misunderstand Veganism as a moral principle. Veganism defined: "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose." As far as possible and practicable equates to a deontological view of Animal Rights in line with Human Rights. The insect deaths you mention are examples of collateral industry harm and death. And there's a big difference between collateral industry death and directly paying someone to kill animals? The idea that a Vegan is a hypocrite on their Animal Rights stance because of crop spray deaths or house building. Is like saying that a person is a hypocrite on their Human Rights stance because they own a phone (which has elements which cause resource war deaths in the Congo), or buy clothes (vast majority are made in sweatshops where people die of low safety regulations and chemical poisonings) or drive a car (1.35 million people die each year in crashes and 50 million more people suffer non-fatal injuries.) or own a home (many die in the construction industry annually from accidents) Some things happen collaterally and need safety improvements. And some things are direct and intentional... like stabbing animals to death for meat. To take your own words and put them in the Human Rights context I could say. "Is it wrong to [Own sweatshop clothes]? If not your argument about [Not owning slaves & murdering people] would seem to fall flat. Using [Phones] should be seen as just as bad as gassing the jews. If building a house meant [killing people] who [work] there, it would be wrong to build the house. How could it be possible to live this way?" We can take measures, which morally we should, to build houses, buy clothes, own technology etc. Whilst minimising collateral harm to both human-animals and non-human animals. These products and services can be created without causing harm and death, though obviously there is an inherent risk. If you want to eat meat, you must directly and intentionally kill an animal, that's the goal. (Bar future lab meat and road kill cafes) And there are certain cases where we deny rights to humans who commit offenses. i.e. if someone attacks you can use lethal force to stop them, if someone breaks into your house and tries to remove or damage your property you can also use lethal force. I see no reason to exempt non-human animals from such a clause

[@AKhanboxing]

Bob Arends Sam Harris is vegetarian

[@jhunt5578]

@@AKhanboxing Not anymore

[@KreeZafi]

I was genuinely shocked when I first learned there are actually people who think animals (and sometimes even human babies) can't feel pain! That sounds like an utterly ridiculous idea to me, why the hell would they not feel it??

[@KreeZafi]

@Ignat Radu Yeah same, though I try to at least make ethical choices like avoiding factory farming - I have no inherent problem with killing animals for food, that's just part of nature, but I'm not on board with unnecessary torture. I also do not support unnecessarily hurting or killing animals like animal testing or trophy hunting. But just eating them? That's fine by me as long as they get a decent life.

[@KreeZafi]

@Ignat Radu I see no problem with that, plenty of animals eat other animals and so so we!

[@oilcan3585]

@Ignat Radu dog meat for human's consumption these days

[@ahuman5150]

I am more shocked when I meet people who take as an insult to be labeled an animal. It shows what they they think of our fellow sentient beings.

[@deepaktripathi4417]

Absolutely

[@ForestWonder16]

Although I am not vegan, this makes me think about it much more than I thought I would. Thank you richard for giving me ideas and room to think.

[@theskeletonboi]

That's the first step in going Vegan, having a logical reason to do so. Not like the trendy teenagers who go Vegan to give them a sense of identity. My advise is to not jump straight into Veganism, try out a Vegetarian diet, it's much easier. After a few years, you'll have no issue going Vegan for the rest of your life.

[@MikaelLewisify]

skeletonboi...bit off a sanctimonious reply. Does it matter why they do it? I think it matters more THAT they do it.

[@Dodo-dy1uq]

@@MikaelLewisify I agree that being vegan definitely more important than one's reason for going vegan. However, unless the person has a strong moral or logical reason for becoming vegan he is likely to return to consuming non vegetarian food.

[@whitefang238]

He is perfectly right, but I'd add that physical pain for most animals is not an uncertainty and psychological pain has already been detected beyond a reasonable doubt for many animals such as cows, dogs and other primates, close to that of a 4 year old human being. I'd also add that the fact that we have knowledge and technology adds another ethical responsibility towards them: 1) avoid using them whenever we can and search alternatives instead 2) if there's no way around it, we should do it avoiding as much pain as possible and allowing it to live as long as possible and a good quality of life in exchange, including giving them the care of our medicine and such 3) we should help them whenever we can, just because and avoid doing harm to the best of our capabilities, just like we do to human animals

[@vfta7906]

Ethan it's been 3 years - did you go vegan?

[@drexler4340]

I'm slowly starting my journey to veganism for many reasons, and this just makes me more motivated.

[@SeanLumly]

Good for you! You have my support! :)

[@LennarthAnaya]

Drexler yeah!!

[@crispsaturday]

Look up James Aspey, he motivates me no end!

[@ReluctantWarrior]

Drexler Great to hear, don't be afraid to ask for advice if you need it.

[@crispsaturday]

Vitamin B12 is given to farmed animals as a supplement too. People who eat animals bodies and excretions get it from these, but kinda inefficiently. So actually you are paying the supplement industry more by eating meat instead of not eating it and supplementing B12 yourself. There is no need for other supplements unless you have a health condition. If you think the supplement industry is too powerful and is advertising wrong, go ahead and educate people, I think that's a good idea! Veganism is about causing the least amount of pain an suffering to beings who feel pain just like we do. Then there are many health and environmental benefits. Period. :) I agree, there are some weird vegans among the cool ones, but that's the same in every topic.

[@J0shReed]

What the contrarians in the comments are missing or ignoring is that ---> it is exactly our ability to understand that other species can suffer that obligates us to not intentionally cause this suffering at the very least, and take steps to reduce it where practical. Every vegan understands that carnism in nature is mostly for the necessary purpose of survival. It is most often perpetrated by an animal without a well-developed moral agency, and so a lion's lack of herbivorous adaptations, nearby grocery stores, and ability to abstractly reflect on its moral decisions excuses it of this obligation. And for the love of Poseidon... can we please stop appealing to situations that we're not in to justify our actions in NOT those situations?

[@utubepunk]

Josh Reed Well said! 👍

[@musicmakesyoustrong]

Josh Reed YES 👍👍👍👌👏

[@utubepunk]

metalhead2508 Uh, spoiler alert, we're animals. So saying we apply human emotions to animals (who express the same feelings & primitive emotions) isn't really accurate. We're cut from the same cloth, we're not extraterrestrials.

[@utubepunk]

metalhead2508 Yes, you're saying we're applying unique human traits to animals. Except it isn't unique. Those traits are a product of a brain, nervous system & evolution and are present in animals, including humans.

[@martyr84]

Existing is suffering. It leads to death and illness. So why do you have kids or choose to live? Our ability to understand (logic) is only half of the equation.

[@mrnarason]

You can't argue against Veganism, it is better on environmental, health, and moral standpoints.

[@mrnarason]

You're like child with those responses "Why did I rob that house? because it felt good, I like money". I'm not a vegan or veterinarian, but I respect people who are. I'm not going to argue to people who hasn't turned 13 yet.

[@dalebewan]

Environmentally and morally, I agree. Health-wise, I haven't seen any evidence that vegan diets are better than non-vegan. It's certainly possible to pick a vegan diet and a non-vegan diet where the vegan one is healthier, but that's also true the other way around.

[@ytsas45488]

Environmentally and in terms of health, I agree. Moral-wise? Definitely not. It is a well known fact that morals are purely subjective, and every viewpoint that is derived from some normative conjecture is also subjective as well, as if it were virally so. This is known as the is-ought problem. Claiming the moral superiority of veganism does nothing but get you ridiculed.

[@dalebewan]

I would have agreed with the statement that morals are subjective until very recently. I was swayed by the arguments of Sam Harris in favour of there being objective morality. I highly recommend reading "The Moral Landscape" if you haven't already. I can't do it justice in a KZbin comment, but at its core, the argument is that morality is a similar concept to medicine. Medicine objectively improves health and morality objectively improves wellbeing. To argue that morality is subjective is actually to argue that wellbeing is subjective, but if you do that then you must also concede that health is subjective (a 'preferred state of being') and by association, the process of medicine. I think that's a much harder argument to justify. Again, I don't do it justice in a KZbin comment, so please try the book before poking giant holes in my three sentence summary.

[@jorgedominguez2256]

also it does nothing to stop animal cruelty.

[@musicmakesyoustrong]

I think most people are against animal cruelty but then they don't put that opinion into practise. They buy factory farmed meat where animals are treated horribly (yes animal abuse is standard in factory farming, those horrible slaughter house footage you've seen is not just from "one specific factory". If you believe that then you are very ignorant and distant from reality. France exposed disgusting animal abuse across the country a few months ago and all three of US biggest factory farming companies Tyson, Cargo etc have all been exposed several times for their animal abuse). People are such hypocrites and they get defensive and angry when you point it out because they know it's true. They have no problem buying meat but once they see the killing of the cow they don't want it anymore. They watch youtube videos of cute animals and applaud anyone who saves a bird on a road and write "animals are so cute! I hate those who are cruel to animals! I love animals" And....then they go to McDonalds and pay for someone to abuse and slit a cow's throat and put pigs in carbon dioxide chambers. I've realized most people are SO dumb.

[@danbee6103]

Amanda N.K, it is people per say, but when the economy consists of conveniences and impulse action, society chooses indulgence. It would take massive change from industries which never intend to change for the better of mankind, but rather capture the time they have devoted to their businesses' as the only dedication to mankind(capitalism), thus far. It takes opportunity to push for big change, and those opportunities should reach all ranges of the economic spectrum to avoid any negative feedback or fallacies of "class warfare".

[@andrewgodly5739]

There's nothing that clarifies that a meat product is factory farmed. For all I know a cheap slab of meat could be free-range or something. Don't blame me and my brethren of meat eaters for the oppressive system we're forced to live in People like you always blame the individuals when in actuality the blame is upon the system those individuals live in. You idiots need to understand determinism and how getting at the root of the issue is much more effective than attacking the victims. Instead of attacking the meat eaters attack the factory farms, advocate for the factory farms being forced to label their products as "cruelty made" or even make it illegal to factory farm. I understand real change is hard to accomplish but if you remain getting upset over my indulgence of meat instead of fighting against what influences me to indulge then the only person to blame is yourself

[@danbee6103]

Andrew Godly, Oh did I blame you? Or did you read poorly? Because I said industry provides temptation that lures in society(you and me) with convenience, capturing the aspect of time and convenience. I did not claim your addiction to red meat and implicit obsession with individualism towards diet is the root. Please go back to school and learn to read.

[@musicmakesyoustrong]

Andrew Godly That was one of the most poor attempts at an excuse I've ever heard. Free range and more ethically produced meat is ALWAYS labeled. Why? Because they want to tell the customer about it so their product seem better than the competitors. Free range is more expensive to produce and obviously they want to show it off since free range is a positive thing. Unless it's clearly stated then you can be sure that they've used the crappiest most antibiotics filled and most cruel meat, because it's the cheapest and give them the the biggest profit. Secondly, don't try and play the victim. You're not the victim, you're certainly the perpertraitor. Ever heard of demand and supply? It's the basics of economy. If people don't buy eggs from caged chicken then that business will die. Same with meat. Your dollar is a vote on what products should exists How on earth do you not understand such a simple thing? I shouldn't have to explain simple things like that to an adult, it's ridiculous. Every time you buy non-labeled cruelty free meat you economically support animal cruelty. Logically speaking it's imposible to be against animal cruelty and buy meat products since killing is cruel. If I slammed your puppy's head into the wall, then kicked it and let it bleed to death that would be cruel. This is a common method used by slaughter house workers to kill piglets who don't grow fast enough or is injured in some way. It's utterly disgusting to watch. This was one of the things Cargo's and Tyson's factories used on a regular basis as shown in undercover footage. So my point is, it's cruel to kill but if you need to do it then the least make sure to economically support those brands who practise more ethical breeding and killing.

[@andrewgodly5739]

You totally avoided the point. My point is that if you want real change you change the system. How was slavery abolished? It was made illegal, not by convincing people to stop buying slaves. How was poaching abolished? By making it illegal, not by convincing people to stop buying furs My point was that attacking me won't accomplish anything. I already know of the market and demand. I know that trying to convince people to not buy a product is as pointless as complaining about it

[@mina_ashraf]

Richard is getting old and it makes me feel really sad about it

[@impolitevegan3179]

naaah, he's getting smarter.

[@meinbuch9458]

LagiNaLangAko23 Which horseman have we lost??!!!!!

[@RandomStuff-he7lu]

And he had a stroke that he's still recovering from.

[@deathnote939393]

LagiNaLangAko23 there will come new ones :) don't worry.

[@Thesappysongwriter]

Makes me star to miss Christopher Hitchens... I don't want to lose them both.

[@eredain1]

Speciesism is a remnant of old religious thinking, where we weren't thought of as animals at all, but entirely separate. When we were thought to have souls and animals didn't. When we were thought to be made in the image of God, whereas animals weren't. It makes no sense from a scientific standpoint, casting away magical ideas of souls and gods, as we are merely one animal among many. But most self-proclaimed rationalists still suffer from this irrationality. They are not as free from cultural influence as they would like to think. No doubt, if they had been born in a country where bullfighting or slavery were the norm, they would accept that, too, and use their rational training to try to defend their irrational attitudes. Individualism is an important part of rationalism. Independent thought. Casting off culture and norms, and doing and believing what actually makes sense, objectively speaking. And of course, rationalism has to be coupled with actually CARING about kindness and justice, in order to manifest in that most important of areas: Ethics.

[@boeing757pilot]

Late comment. But your thoughts are excellent.

[@DreamofAnything]

I don't want to say this but almost 50% world's problems comes with religion

[@Thesappysongwriter]

I went Vegan months ago because of my realization of this.

[@nad1ax2]

how are you holding up?

[@nad1ax2]

@@__________________________1030 so am I. I'm a second-gen Desi with a South-Indian Brahmin background. But drop the 1000 years shtick lmao *Edit:* Jeez your KZbin videos made me barf

[@marcosrua7223]

Now he probably is on a carnivore diet

[@SolitaryReaper666]

Go vegan, Richard Dawkins!

[@francesgarner2477]

Imagine the impact Richard Dawkins would have on the Humanist community if he honored the morals veganism.

[@wilsons2882]

we became humans as in gained intellect because we ate meat and organs as cringy as it sounds to vegans its true it's damn true.

[@ellieaquitaine6396]

@@wilsons2882 We were mostly plant based and opportunistic carnivores, especially during seasons when plant material wasn't abundant.

[@sarfaraazsinghsangha2040]

@@ellieaquitaine6396 you mean throughout the ice ages?

[@ellieaquitaine6396]

@@sarfaraazsinghsangha2040 haha yeah.

[@Ikkitousen2323]

It is amazing to see this man after such a great recovery.

[@HakuCell]

was he ill?

[@Ikkitousen2323]

Profesor Dawkins suffered a stroke a few months ago.

[@reniorjd]

Haku yes, stroke.

[@musicmakesyoustrong]

Ikkitousen2323 I hope he's feeling better and back to normal now, he's such a great man!

[@gj9157]

Oh wow, maybe a priest roofied his drink.

[@sithewiseguy]

We need more voices like this to spread these ideas. Thank you Big Think, and thanks to Richard.

[@NoInjusticeLastsForever]

We need vegans spreading the message of animal rights. Non-vegans talking about the ethics of how animals are treated is undeniably laughable.

[@DoomRulz]

Because people don't see animals as worthy of respect the same way we see humans. It's why people's hearts seem to bleed for starving humans in Africa but a stray animal is shunned because it could be carrying sickness.

[@homewall744]

Really, you don't see humans showing super great respect for their pets? We hear stories about rescued animals from other countries, or beached whales being saved, etc. And all farmers respect their animals for the value they provide, which is much the way most humans view other humans.

[@TestMeatDollSteak]

DoomRulz - I think you could make the opposite argument, actually. Especially here in America and other modern "first world" nations. I see far more outrage generated on stories involving dogs or cats being tortured, or elephants and tigers hunted for sport and trophies, than is generated on homelessness, or elder abuse, for example. A lot of people whose hearts break at the sight of a stray puppy give not a second thought to the panhandler begging for change at the intersection. Some of us are far more callus to one another that we'd ever be to one of our pets. So perhaps it's a more complicated issue than you've made it out to be.

[@frinkls5347]

Actually people care more about Harambe I feel, than a random kid dying of starvation in South Sudan...

[@Horny_Fruit_Flies]

DoomRulz It would be great if that was actually true. I see more 1st world citizens more willing to cry over a dead chicken than their fellow man.

[@watch3r1]

Harmony Alexandria You are proposing that the children born in sub saharan Africa and dying of starvation are somehow culpable of that fact, which is a very delusional and actually quite idiotic way of thinking. Also I'm not so sure that overpopulation is the explanation for the state of things in many of those countries so your entire angry rant seems to me just a big pile of rubbish.

[@whatthefunction9140]

come to the vegan side

[@isaachouston8943]

Dylan T nah, my side has tasty, tasty bacon.

[@tasinal-hassan8268]

plus.google.com/u/1/photos/photo/118357405454653855941/6461121545001524098?icm=false&iso=true

[@whatthefunction9140]

Let's be real about what is appealing about bacon. It has a lot of fat, salt, flavorings, texture, aroma, emotional connection to lovely breakfasts with mum when you were a kid. But none of those things are exclusive to dead animal parts. Please try eating a boiled pork chop and tell me you love meat. No you love all the additions and preparations.

[@whatthefunction9140]

google image search "nipple bacon" eat up hahahahahahaha

[@guitarlolfriend]

Dylan T i agree, regardless the carnist argument of pleasure does not justify needless destruction. No matter what, preferrences are not arguments

[@jarcau_vegan]

I see veganism as the next and most important universal justice movement that humanity has ever faced. To acknowledge that what morally matters is the who inside the other, has to be finally extended to the all-time forgotten victims of humanity: the animals. Each one of them are individuals who care for their own live. Needlessly using an individual, capable of understanding himself and his surroundings in a subjective experience, is wrong. All sentient individuals will definetely be represented in some kind of human contract called *Animal Rights.* Respect for all sentients may not be understood in all and every human mind for hundreds of years, and therefore be transgressed by some humans, the same way it happens with Human Rights since they were officially announced. The root of these transgressions have always been the same: envy and greed that drives oneself to focus on differences between him / her and others (individuals, sex, race, species...) Speciesism is the ultimate root from which this behaviour arises. Focus on educating about speciesism, and humans will see other humans as their obvious companios, taking care of individuals of other species because we can, instead of exploiting them. Go Vegan. Educate others.

[@AvangionQ]

Modern morality is an ever-growing arc towards more equality, more inclusion, more compassion, more harm reduction ... eventually, we will see animals as part of those we need to protect ...

[@AvangionQ]

@Ignat Radu Start with semi-vegetarian.

[@MrCmon113]

@Ignat Radu "I'm evil" is no more an argument against the observation of moral progress than "I dropped out of school" is an argument against the observation of more education.

[@AvangionQ]

@Ignat Radu No, you just implied it.

[@obligatoryusername7239]

Do we also protect animals from each other, or is it only evil when our species kill other animals?

[@AvangionQ]

@@obligatoryusername7239 Yes.

[@adrianonunziata4272]

You are a brilliant mind. Thank you for educate us.

[@pikkuadi]

Be part of the future, don't eat animals.

[@ariefraiser140]

DeadDodo Meat is delicious. Yummm.

[@musicmakesyoustrong]

DeadDodo Immature 10-year olds trying to pull off old "jokes" 👆

[@ariefraiser140]

Tom Z it's my point. Yum!

[@SMN9a]

Eat bugs only

[@wilsons2882]

if you stop eating meat you will be a herbivore and you cannot survive anywhere in this earth unless you create technology to harvest plants everywhereee.

[@DreamofAnything]

I feel so bad when people call dawkins bad or evil or satan just because he speaks against religion. He is so cool and intelligent and kind.He is the grandpa that i never had.

[@456antoabc]

I love his explanation of pain at 3:08

[@tmk7775]

Hello. Physiotherapist here. I would consider myself an expert in pain. Medically speaking, pain is defined as a "an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage." Pain is both sensory and emotional in origin. It is very likely that humans have stronger and more complex emotions compared to other animals. Thus, I would expect pain to be felt more strongly in humans compared to other animals. We know from experiments that animals avoid noxious stimuli, as Richard alluded to. That requires sensation of pain of some sort. We call this "nociception." However, merely sensing pain (nociception) does not amount to having the complex sensory AND emotional experience that humans have. Pain is useful to survival but only up to an extent. Too much pain that causes an animal to stop moving or even stop paying attention to surroundings would be detrimental to survival. At the end of the day, we can not know for certain how much pain animals feel. The only way to know would be to ask an animal and have them reply. My guess would be that most animals feel comparatively minor amounts of pain, with more intelligent/emotional animals having more capacity for pain similar to us.

[@pauladams1814]

Brilliant, well put and logical ♡.

[@TheJam1203]

What a wonderful point made.

[@dommidavros2211]

He's totally right! I've been saying the same thing for years! What surprises me is that despite saying all this, he still eats meat!

[@fromeveryting29]

What we think and what we feel often aren't aligned. I think many people know perfectly well that what they do is irrational and astronomically destructive, but they won't change until that emotional motivation kicks in. That is why so many go vegan after seeing compelling footage and actually feel the horror that is connected to their own actions. A rational mind alone can't do much. Most of our behaviour is still emotional. It's when those two align you start to really feel integrity.

[@prabhakaranjeyamohan4579]

@@fromeveryting29 adding to this. Also I think people have another problem too. It takes some considerable effort to transition to a vegan diet and feel healthy. Lots of misinformation about what to eat , not educated about nutrition , allergies, etc pose a hurdle to the transition.

[@leonardoterzani9639]

Very well articulated, thank you.

[@k4vids]

very beautiful video! nd very informative

[@NostalgiaMan]

Still love Dawkins.

[@Octovisuals]

I totally and completely agree. I couldn't agree more. I'm becoming a vegetarian. Today it's easier than ever!

[@a_ij6269]

Unfortunately the dairy industry causes more suffering to the cows then the meat industry. Cows like any other species just give milk after birth. The male calves are considered waste and get slaughtered with the mother weeping for her stolen kids. After a couple years the constant milking and giving birth the body of the cow is broken down and she's send to the slaughterhouse often even unable to walk. The best way to protect the animals is to go vegan.

[@veganm8918]

Consider veganism. The dairy and egg industries are brutal. If you do it for the animals it is quite easy. Consider watching a few short videos on youtube such as Farm to Fridge & Dairy Is Scary 🙂

[@Octovisuals]

@@veganm8918 I think veganism is way too much, it's dangerous for the health and also unnecessary. It's way too radical. Animals don't necessarily have to suffer in any way if everything is done properly. For example, there are free-range eggs which are obtained from free chickens around the farm lands. As long as we treat animals decently and we don't have to kill them, it's OK. Best regards.

[@veganm8918]

@@Octovisuals Bad News: You have no clue what you are talking about. Good News: Ignorance is bliss. Free range chickens rarely see the light of day or breathe a single breath of fresh air until they day they're brutally thrown into a truck and sent to slaughter. Except that is usually done at night so people on the roadway cannot see them so actually they never see the light of day. Free range only means not in a cage. So they can pack them in one on top of the other inside giant sheds, They can chop their beaks off because when given the space of one sheet of paper to live your life they peck to protect themselves. Chickens on earth now on average are 4- weeks old when killed for meat. They grow so fast their legs often can't keep up and break. Every single industry that raises animals for food is brutal. So do not watch a movie such as Earthlings, Dominion, do not watch Farm to Fridge. Stay uninformed, blissfully ignorant, and happy! Best regards,

[@Octovisuals]

@@veganm8918 Man, I feel you, but you can't live in a fairy tale world. Nature made us omnivores, so... Good luck trying to eat just vegetables, which by the way its production also leads to land occupation and therefore animal deaths (or not births...), plus pesticides, plus everything. You have to face it: being alive is destructing. The key here is creating more than destroying, doing more good than bad. If you're worried for the chickens of your eggs and the cows of your milk, then collaborate to save many other animals. Also, if not for the industry, those animals wouldn't have even been born at all... Like I said: don't be so radical. You have to let go some things in life and just... live. Do more good than harm. And that's it. Cheers and peace.

[@littlesometin]

glad we're having this discussion

[@stuckupcurlyguy]

Dawkins has also said elsewhere that wild animals constantly suffer. This is because wild animals breed in a Malthusian way to the point of exhausting their local resources, and a steady population is always in a state of near-starvation. If the vast majority of wild animals' lives are short, hungry, and painful, as Dawkins claims, do we have a moral responsibility to extinguish nature, or at least to alter it? This is a perspective I have never heard discussed before, but it is a logical endpoint to the premise that animals suffer. In fact, domesticated species such as cows may have far less suffering in their lives than wild ones. Domestic animals never want for food or shelter, live longer, and are less stressed when measured against wild populations (it's true - look it up). Is it therefore a vegan moral duty to save wild prey species before factory farmed animals? Nobody talks about this, yet it is highly arguable.

[@safiyav5602]

Richard Dawkins you have a very beautiful heart! WE LOVE YOU!! Thank you!

[@Mariomario-gt4oy]

Much respect to Dawkins. his information is very interesting stuff

[@sandyqureshi4938]

Buddha said Animals feel more pain because they're unable to express their pain, they're unable to communicate their pain and in many unable to cry. So their pain is worse.

[@search895]

I think ethics is not about "treat others like they treat you", "treat others the same as you" or "treat others the way you want to be treated", but "treat others the way they need".

[@botas5254]

Cutting red meat including beef, venison, and mutton out of my diet. Already have given up pork.

[@DreamofAnything]

I won't judge you bro for your past rather i'll appreciate you for your future actions

[@Sluj666]

Just before he passes away, I just want to say I love you Richard!

[@JacobA666]

Just before who passes away??

[@Sluj666]

@@JacobA666 Richard Dawkins

[@JacobA666]

@@Sluj666 I thought he passed away... but just now I realized what it means from your comment. Definitely, Richard Dawkins is a true humanist.

[@Sluj666]

@@JacobA666 I'm surprised he is still alive. He did have a stroke a couple of years ago. Yeah, he is one of a kind. Right next to Christopher Hitchens

[@scottlewis9716]

Pretty much everything he said, I already thought and it's great to hear Dawkins also saying it. It has always baffled me that some people actually think we're the only sentient animals in the world. How is there 8.5 million non sentient animals and only one sentient animal and that's just coincidentally whatever animal we are

[@NothingIsArt1]

Go vegan, if you not already are :)

[@allandm]

People are so incredibly inconsistent when it comes to this topic. So many complain about dogs being harmed and killed for meat in a different country, while they themselves do the same thing to pigs, cows and chickens. We already know we don't need meat to live a healthy life so in my opinion killing animals for meat is highly immoral. We are killing animals for pleasure (taste)

[@SpeaksYourWord]

This hypocrisy made me hate dogs and cats

[@absorbcreate]

Go vegan my dudes ✌️

[@archmx]

Irish Jester trying to come off as "rational" by mentioning natural selection while natural selection itself is telling us, in the form of heart disease, (#1 global cause of death) that we are not designed to eat other animals... You are so pathetic, lol.

[@archmx]

Irish Jester btw, what does evolution have to do with drinking the milk of another animal? Mistaking evolution by social conditioning is so intellectually stupid, LOLOL.

[@purugigi]

Edu Arg , and the sun damages our eyes over time. Let's just all close our eyes forever!

[@guitarlolfriend]

Irish Jester An argument of evolution and natural selection would justify rape as it is the most efficient reproduction method. Pure evolutionary methodology cannot exist in an emotional world. Think a bit before you create such fallacies.

[@guitarlolfriend]

You understand by evolution, we could care less how society is. Our instincts to survive and procreate are above all. By this fact if we use evolution as a guideline (as you seem to be suggesting) we will go at anything to procreate even if it takes barbarism. Ethics and Instincts are not interchangeable.

[@drunkonknowledge550]

The collection of ties of sir Dawkins is amazing... love you sir Ricuard Dawkins 😘😘

[@raphaelalcazar7267]

I've been thinking about it all day for quite some time, it stress me so much

[@slartibartfast426]

Vegan for life!!!

[@Vicioussama]

no one cares

[@Vicioussama]

replied because it's tiresome to see Vegans always have to shove that shit in 90% of their comments.

[@guitarlolfriend]

The God Emperor youre on a video that concludes the fact that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle, the only non double standard in this case. Consider the bigger issues over your personal triggerings. Dont shut logic down based on 'being annoyed'.

[@diegodiablo8283]

James D because they are human

[@guitarlolfriend]

Uleek M'diq what about a human other than intelligence objectively differentiates moral value?

[@KenoshaKicker]

that tie...

[@badgerlife9541]

This is why I’m vegetarian. I just can’t get over the self-evident fact that it’s wrong to eat mammals with whom we share so much of the same DNA, such a similar body plan (curious eyes, a nose, and ears...) and the same love for play and simply sharing in the joy of being alive! How can anyone justify taking a life only for the taste of its flesh? Over many generations to come we will make progress. I’m certain of it 🤞

[@shayzakov1895]

You do realize these arguments justify going vegan, right?

[@kimujin6]

I'm reading the book roots by Alex haley and I find so much similarity between the slave owners and animal owners of modern society. slave owners thought they were 'taking care' of the enslaved people because they thought black people were all slow and stupid and had no abillity to survive on their own. but actually slave owners were the ones who stopped the enslaved people from getting educated and even from using any of their own survival knowledge and abillities. (Doing anything African origin like drumming was illegal then) I live in a Korean viliage and very old couple in my neighborhood have so many big dogs in very tiny individual cages. I think about freeing them at night but there's no habitat left for them around and whole villiage treat dogs the same way so I am not confident that they will survive when they've been in that cages all their lives. I feel like I am in 1700's and not doing anything about slavery happening next door.

[@notjustanotherguy739]

Best video so far ❤️ This is why it’s so important to be vegan.

[@18T220]

Finally some cleaver speakers on here. Good content.

[@vickygalindo801]

@Big Think I would like to contribute with spanish subtitles so it can reach more people, how can I get in touch with you?

[@whitefang238]

He is perfectly right, but I'd add that physical pain for most animals is not an uncertainty and psychological pain has already been detected beyond a reasonable doubt for many animals such as cows, dogs and other primates, close to that of a 4 year old human being. I'd also add that the fact that we have knowledge and technology adds another ethical responsibility towards them: 1) avoid using them whenever we can and search alternatives instead 2) if there's no way around it, we should do it avoiding as much pain as possible and allowing it to live as long as possible and a good quality of life in exchange, including giving them the care of our medicine and such 3) we should help them whenever we can, just because and avoid doing harm to the best of our capabilities, just like we do to human animals

[@brutalindus1007]

I saw a video of a horse crying with tears after the other horse died next to him, i wish i could find that video again. it broke my heart

[@search895]

Brutal Indus While I have been against animal suffering since forever, I'm not sure videos of animals crying are real. Not all animals express emotions the way we do. Tears dont mean nothing to many animals, the same way as many of them never change their face expression.

[@sirmeowthelibrarycat]

Brutal Indus 😳 Elephants have been filmed mourning the loss of calves or an elderly member of the herd. We have no other explanation for their behaviour.

[@jazzx251]

we are mammals - as are many large creatures - we share many of the same characteristics - probably including feeling pain and crying. I have no doubt at all that similar animals to ourselves feel pain just like we do ... pain is a very basic survival mechanism that most complex creatures must surely share. Or their species would never have got off the ground.

[@veryliberalprogressiveathe6117]

People who think animal cruelty is okay are ridiculously ludicrous when you consider the fact that we are just more advanced apes from which we evolved from. Hunting is actually wrong in some ways. #conservewildlife

[@LD-qj2te]

I agree we must be concerned about the well being of all people , lives and the environment

[@InanisNihil]

4:25 bruh... i never though about that... makes u take things even more into consideration

[@rob4214]

I do agree that in the future we probably won't eat animals only because meat will probably be grown in a factory from muscle stem cells. Not because we have become more enlightened. It will be very easy for future generations to judge when they can eat meat with no moral considerations.

[@domsjuk]

That is an interesting point indeed.

[@joefloine2000]

The Legendary Richard Dawkins...🤗

[@RockinRowdyRoberto]

That photo at the start totally made my day.

[@AaronJCassidy]

I have often thought about what pain actually is, and I came to a similar conclusion; that pain is your brain's way of supplying a natural deterrent against harmful stimuli. Surely then this concept could be applied to all living things, no?

[@kencarey3477]

I've been vegan nearly 10 years

[@Uniruusu]

Kudos! I've only been vegan for 2 years and I really love it!

[@saoirse7167]

Does this mean that Richard Dawkins is going vegan? He is using the same philosophical argument that vegans make.

[@KinnArchimedes]

You don't need to be Vegan to make the Philosophical argument against Animal cruelty amd suffering.

[@cozyslor]

He's the best. I could listen to him all day.

[@ArtunYazici]

Great intellectual; great explanation...

[@thedancingveganatheist6310]

I DON'T accept animal cruelty...

[@scipioafricanus5871]

@SpiritWolf2K ...said the majority of people on this planet all the way to the market with cheap meat.

[@coffeefrog]

I love this man.

[@fromeveryting29]

Been vegan for 3 years and grew up vegetarian for 22 years before that. It's probably the most important thing I will ever do for the world. Feels great to have taken my responsability, and not base my 'human superiority' on violence, exploitation, death or dominion, either given by nature or divine force.

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Dr Peter Singer is an INTERNATIONAL hero! I am a Reductionist: I support Reductionism. That means everything differs in magnitude, not in kind. That means I do not arbitrary different categories for different opponents. ALL opponents are just opponents, whether it is some scammer trying to defraud me, or a sexual predator trying to force sex on me, or a politician forcing unjust laws on me, or a judge trying to imprison me. All opponents try to maximize the suffering & pain of their opponents. As a Vegan I treat carnivores/meat-eaters the SAME way those who oppose fraud treat convicted fraudsters like Sam Bankman Fried, or the way those opposed to pedophilia treat pedophiles. Why the F shouldn't I? There is NO logical reason why I shouldn't. As a pro-war Green, I make no distinction between a civilian vs a soldier: except in amount of firepower. Being a veteran or soldier or "terrorist" or vigilante or murderer says NOTHING about WHICH SIDE of a conflict you are on, whether you are justified or unjustified. Dr Dawkins is a great Atheist and Evolutionary Science advocate. But, he is wrong about transgender people. Sex is not well defined as he thinks it is.

[@futurehistory2110]

Great to see intellects like Dawkins waking up on this issue. I know he's not vegan (yet) but perhaps soon enough he will. It's definitely a positive sign. Throughout history, intellects/scientists/philosophers have tended to go along with basic societal norms, except for a few on the fringe. However as movements make progress in changing attitudes on subjects (whether it was slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.) suddenly some intellects start to wake up before the rest do as a wave of societal change unfolds shortly after. Only time will tell but I have cautious hope.

[@alfredomorales5528]

First of the Horsemen to come out and say it already! Veganism is the future! 😋

[@devin168]

sam harris was vegan for a while

[@StephenJosiahRose]

And ate terribly and "had" to give it up. No details on what he actually ate as far as I am aware - but he did admit he was not going a good job… so he basically admitted being lazy. It's a shame because his discussion on the topic resulted in me going Vegan. Two years later, still happy and healthy. Blood work is fantastic.

[@Edward-qe8xg]

@@StephenJosiahRose He is going vegan again, but he did end up ill the first time.

[@StephenJosiahRose]

@@Edward-qe8xg Where did you hear he is going vegan again?

[@scipioafricanus5871]

@@StephenJosiahRose You do realize for most people to shift to veganism you would have to make their vegan way of life very convenient.

[@johnbremner4154]

I think your argument that animals who can’t learn as quickly as we do may feel more intense pain than we do, has great merit, and it’s the first time I’ve heard that argument. I hope it becomes mainstream thinking.

[@iamnoone4046]

Very thoughtful and intelligent human being.

[@usuallyasianasians5249]

Richard Dawkins is the G.O.A.T.

[@hojjat5000]

UsuallyAsianAsians, and Goats can feel pain.

[@tasinal-hassan8268]

_"The decline of slavery was due not to _*_moral progress but to economic change._*_ Production under direct physical compulsion proved less profitable or convenient than production under the stimulus of acquisitive desire."_ ______ Will Durant So I guess it's safe to say that if capitalism fails,we'll return to the classical institution of slavery once again.

[@niveshproag8660]

That's true Tasin, but what's the point? The decline of farmed animals will probably be caused by laboratory-grown meat. Any mass cultural habit is hard to change, and follow economics. That's why to create social change, we need only convince the thinkers and people with power like Lincoln. In this case, maybe billionaires who can fund lab meat, since power has shifted from politicians to companies. In the case of electric cars, people like Elon Musk, who doesn't so much argue for electric cars, as simply doing the billion dollar research to make it economically viable than gasoline cars, and watch as the billions follow the economics to the vision of one.

[@tasinal-hassan8268]

+Nivesh Proag One thing's for sure,economics doesn't follow morals.

[@Chiungalla79]

+Tasin Al-Hassan I highly doubt that Will Durant was right on this one. After all the american civil war was fought for/against slavery in the united states. Back then there was still a major economical incentive for slavery. More so in the south, but certainly not limited to this area. We didn't get rid of slavery because it wasn't usefull anymore. We get rid of it because the uses declined and it became easier to see that there are other ways. But when it was finally abolished it was still useful and economical sound, and it was due to moral progress. "So I guess it's safe to say that if capitalism fails,we'll return to the classical institution of slavery once again." I doubt that this is safe to say. And it's fallacious thinking that lead you to this conclusion. So think again.

[@marilynjones5749]

The Abolitionists Abolished Human Slavery in the U.S. We can ABOLISH THE USE and ABUSE of ALL ANIMALS. ALL ANIMALS ARE SENTIENT BEINGS. GO VEGAN. HAVE THE COURAGE TO GO VEGAN!!! ANIMALS FEEL PAIIN AND PLEASURE AND THEY WANT TO LIVE. HAVE THE COURAGE TO GO VEGAN NOW.

[@angelic8632002]

And then we have herd animals who morn their fellow members in some cases. There is probably a few watching this video who have a dog that has shown signs like these. I know its been the case for me when my mother went away. It was quite evident in the behavior of our two dogs at the time. I'm convinced we owe these animals a great deal of consideration and compassion, if not quite at the level of a fellow human.

[@umiluv]

Because some people think of animals as creatures without emotion. My mother thinks of them as things and not sentient entities. She’s coming around after spending some time with my cats but there’s just a large group of people that just don’t think animals are capable of the same emotional range that we have.

[@TheAster3]

Really? Well, if you come across them, again, ask them this: You put a human, a chicken and a plant on a table. Stab all three, which of the three squirms around in significant pain and suffering? Sentience is something that can be measured. Humans and animals, like cats, are sentient creatures.

[@InvisiMan2006]

Come on, Richard! At least finish your point: "Therefore, go vegan."

[@SRoberto123]

I bet you Dawkins is no Vegan! He likes fried fish, hamburgers, hot dogs, fried chicken, ect.

[@w00716761]

lol..

[@sirmeowthelibrarycat]

Rosaza 😾 Really? And you know this because . . . ? The basis of his talk is philosophical, not personal. Therefore his specific behaviour is irrelevant at this point. PS. Referring to a person by their surname only is considered rude and dismissive by many. Show a modicum of courtesy when you choose to respond to someone on any level.

[@SRoberto123]

Dawkins likes to eat FISH COW, CHICKEN, probably PIG. What do you say about that VEGANS!?

[@MarkShaneHansen]

Where in the world is it considered rude to refer to people by their surname? In my country you'd still be using the first name if you met the prime minister. Outside of formal ceremonies, you'd be using first names with the royal family too. But just 50 years ago, you used surnames to speak to people in formal settings, to superiors and authority figures. Using surnames has always been a sign of respect, at least in the western world. I was not aware it was anything other elsewhere, so out of curiosity: where?

[@Gaming_Vegan_Ape]

Be kind, be vegan

[@sidradzz]

See in their eyes. You see the pain. 😣

[@016329]

I completely agree with this and although I do eat meat, I really do see the moral argument not to. Of course, although we can see the moral reasons not to eat meat, we are also biologically wired to eat meat and this is why you have to make a real effort to make up the lost nutrients if you don't eat it (and even more so as a vegan). It can definitely be done but you have to be committed and I'm afraid I will admit that my love of meat is stronger than my moral compunctions about eating it! My hope is that we will one day be able to produce meat from stem cells in quantities big enough and to a good enough quality to replace meat from dead animals. I remember hearing about an experiment a few years ago where they managed to produce a very tiny strip of meat in this way but I'm not sure how or if this has developed further since.

[@jasmeetawal9190]

It's a form of psychosis. Its definition is very apropos - a mental disorder in which you lose your contact with reality. That's what this is, isn't it? Some people just can't get their head out of their own arse to realize what they are really doing to others like themselves. Is the pain of "others like you" real to you or not? And what your definition of "others like you" is. This will answer whether you are psychotic or not. A few years back, for most, that definition only included their own group (race, religion, nation). Now that definition is expanding as we are educating people and making them realize that this is not just their reality; it's everybody's reality. Many are still hypnotized and lost in themselves, the unevolved Trump's. We stopped slavery by making most people realize that we are all human beings. Now we need to realize that we are all animals, and those who do that are the most human.

[@oliverb1119]

I don't empathize with animals that are not the same species as me. Because I am not evolved to pass the genes of other species forward. It's a competition, and only passing on human genes are important to win the competition.

[@sirmeowthelibrarycat]

Oliver Bergqvist 😾 Your 'not evolved to pass the genes of other species' is ridiculous! No species is! You 'do not empathise . . . with other species' , therefore you would not attempt to help a creature in distress? You would dismiss the behaviour of those who set a hedgehog on fire as inconsequential? Those who participate in cock fighting or dog fighting gangs? Those who operate puppy farms? Those who beat and starve so called pet dogs and cats? You would decry punishing such people as unjustified? You would ignore the evidence that cruelty to animals has a strong correlation with cruelty to humans? In effect, you are placing yourself beyond those of us who are both compassionate and humane in our concern for the suffering of animals, as well as that of humans. You my not be aware that here in 🇬🇧 it was members of the RSPCA. who later founded the NSPCC - showing that compassion is not species specific. Please reflect upon the deeper elements of such a serious issue, then consider your position.

[@oliverb1119]

Sir Meow The Library Cat To all of your many rethrotical questions: no I wouldn't, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. As for the last one, if animal cruelty has a correlation with cruelty to humans, just condemn and punish anyone who commits cruelty to humans. Why is the correlation even important? Your empathy with animals is irrational. Why does your brain release dopamine when other animals are happy? You get no benefit from making sure no other animals are hurt or killed. Except if the animal being alive helps you in some way. Also, I don't care about being "humane" (whatever that even means exactly). Nor your stupid fucking organizations for that matter. In fact, virtually nobody does. For example, (if I had the power,) I would kill all the mosquitoes in the world. Because they don't do anything good for humanity. They're just an annoyance. But I guess you would consider that mass murder?

[@jasmeetawal9190]

Oliver Bergqvist - From what I understand, you are saying that we are selfish in nature and then why do we try to be altruistic, which, as you put it, is completely irrational. I feel sad that you feel that way even though it doesn't affect me in any way. I want you to think some more about what you believe, and consider why don't we try to be altruistic and not follow our selfish nature. Man, I don't know where to start, but I'll try. We are not evolved to pass on the genes of our species. We are evolved to pass on genes of our self. Richard Dawkins has written a rather aptly named book on it - The Selfish Gene. If everybody accepts they are selfish in nature, then it will explain your feelings for our behavior towards animals. But, why would we then feel differently for our actions towards other humans? We are also competing with other humans to pass on our genes. So shouldn't we feel happy when someone not from our social group (who indirectly help us by keeping our genes safe) is killed? Shouldn't we feel happy when we enslave a big portion of our species (the other group) and regulate their population? It'd benefit us in passing on our genes. We don't feel happy in such cases. In fact, many (who are not psychopaths) feel the opposite way - we are repulsed by even the thought of it. We are empathetic towards our species because our culture has evolved past our selfish nature, and thus our beliefs => our thoughts => our feelings => our actions have evolved past our selfish nature. As we grow from a selfish infant, we create beliefs, based on our culture and from what is taught to us by the older generation, that can contradict our inherent programming and make us more altruistic. At snail's pace, generation by generation, our culture is becoming more egalitarian and inclusive, and we are becoming more and more empathetic. This is the opposite of being irrational. A "rational" human being who is not empathic is irrational because they are limited in their thoughts, and because of their inability to get their stuck head out of their own arse and think of other's feelings. Yes, we have evolved because all the living beings have a sole motive - to pass on their genes. That was the only way nature could find where a species survives. However, in humans, nature has created intelligence - an aspect of nature that can oppose nature itself. We are not bound to be selfish. Our culture is constantly being shaped by intelligent and rational human beings, who can think past their selfish nature and even the existing cultural beliefs to see the bigger picture. What's that bigger picture? Well, we are still moving towards it, but it starts with the realization that we are not the only individual who is the psychological center of their world. Every single being in this world perceives reality from their own senses, and each of that reality is real, not just ours. Their feelings are as real as our feelings. (Though I find it difficult to include mosquitoes and insects in that model :p, some Buddhists, Jains and few others do feel that way. Maybe future generations, some 1000 years later, if our species still survives, will think of someone like me as barbarous.)

[@oliverb1119]

We *are* evolved to pass on the genes of our species, especially our communities. One is indirectly passing on their genes when their sibling gets a child (even though directly passing on ones genes is preferable). But that's not my point. The reason we're evolved to feel empathy for other humans is that humans can spread their genes more effectively when working together. Language, gesturing, facial expressions, are all abilities evolved to do that, resulting in things like civilisation. But feeling empathy with animals doesn't create civilisation. Something to ride on, or something to guard ones sheep, is as good as it gets. And that's just using the animal to ones own benefits, not working together. Honestly it's not very complicated. I don't see why you try so hard to justify that animal cruelty is evil. I mean from the animals perspective it's evil, but since they have inferior intelligence they can't do anything about it.

[@jaidev777]

It's frankly appalling, even from a purely objective position, that the question of whether animals feel pain is still a thing.

[@artisttjan]

I think he's vastly overestimating how much people care about each other to think that we would then too care about animals. He seems like a very nice guy tho, respect.

[@135792468101214]

lets make pain great again

[@giroguy22]

Lots of meatards getting upset in the comments I see lol, here come the 'plants feel pain too' brigade!

[@anatypicallyhumanperson7200]

giroguy22 they do.

[@RM-so7op]

There's been some interesting studies into whether they can. Like trees which can appear to have their own kind of nervous system which may actually cause them a sensation akin to 'pain' when they are ill or damaged.

[@niveshproag8660]

Plants at best, MIGHT, like 1 in a million chance feel some version of pain. Animals feel pain, 100%. If plants felt pain, we'd have no alternative and we'd have to eat plants anyways. With animals, we have choice. It's the dumbest argument I see, and it's everywhere.

[@BigDaddyWes]

Meatards? Wow, that's childish.

[@dennisr.levesque2320]

Well, if you think about it, a lot of people ("scientists") say that "from dead atoms, came life". Extrapolating that, we should be able to deduce that dead atoms can also be food. Who says that we have to eat ANY former living thing? We could eat nutritious chemicals that were NEVER alive. (Uh-oh, I FEEL a backlash coming)

[@nathanedwards3184]

After critically thinking about humanities relationship with the animal kingdom... Veganism and animal rights are just common sense. We suffer as equals, and therefore deserve equal moral consideration.

[@Andrew-re8by]

Go Vegan

[@MrRisdon1]

Axy, Go slob a knob.

[@anatypicallyhumanperson7200]

Axy no, b12 and creatine are only found in meat. They are absolutely needed for proper brain and musvle fuction

[@hamishcooke5265]

Wesley Welch wrong. B12 is not found in either animals or plants, it is a bacteria found in microbes which cover the earth. Creative is made naturally by all animals. Do some research

[@anatypicallyhumanperson7200]

You are mostly on the right inclination. happen to know that cobalamin(b12) is produced in high amount in the gut microbes of ungulates and ruminants( cow, sheep, deer, horses) as a readily available for our use. the b12 our gut-microbes produce is not used by us and there for we need to consume other animals to obtain it.

[@divergentevolution8114]

I just ate a Vegan, they taste just as gross as meat eaters do. Your recommendation is not appreciated!

[@dontcomply6046]

Veganism is the answer.

[@ozskipper]

What was the question?

[@brenoharantes]

ozskipper How can we make our descendants feel a little less embarrassed about us?

[@ozskipper]

@Breno That question doesnt make sense. Do you feel embarrassed about your Grandparents?

[@brenoharantes]

ozskipper The question was proposed by Dawkins and Sam Harris. And to answer your question, yes, in some aspects I do. We're more morally advanced than they were. But the idea is always to look a little farther then a couple of generations.

[@ozskipper]

Morally advanced. Do you think they would be embarrassed about your generation being sexually promiscuous.? Its all subjective.

[@captainglam1113]

Much respect to Richard Dawkins for addressing this issue. It is also worth considering that low intelligence is no barrier to emotional distress either.

[@dottorsalvapetti9459]

Preferring individuals of your own species is something strongly wired in every animal brain, this simply is why cruelty toward a non-human animal is often considered worst than toward a human embryo - I guess

[@justinthorne8979]

"we never stopped slavery, we just outsourced it to more vulnerable countries"

[@scipioafricanus5871]

Foxconn wants to know your location.

[@wilsons2882]

modern slavery is not slavery ahahahhahah so funny right so contradictory.

[@glennjaspers3253]

"...outsourced to more vulnerable species."

[@alexatwater1961]

Just came to write "GO VEGAN"

[@Hrimstal]

Less meat eaters, less need for unethical mass production of meat. It's a simple as that. Animals subjected to mass production are treated like inanimate objects. If you had to witness what they went through before you bought that packet of meat in the grocery store, you wouldn't ever want to buy such products again. Additionally, producing meat requires way more resources than plant-based foods. If everyone stopped eating meat, it would be easier to feed the growing population and animals wouldn't be subjected to the torture we bring them.

[@interlake2043]

I wonder what vegans and vegetarians think of synthetic meats. Eventually it will be cheap enough to compete with farm raised meats. As someone who works on a dairy/beef farm the idea is unsettling, however we do cereal crops as well as soy and canola.

[@pikkuadi]

Because human is a stupid animal.

[@user-gl6su3xi6s]

Today there was a slaughter festival in my country. Pretty fucking gruesome. It celebrates ibrahim's "glorious" act of nearly slaughtering his own son. Early in the morning I ran to a slaughter area to see the act. There were about 40+ cows/bulls there, lined up eating their food. Five teams of butchers would pick one. take it a few feet back and slaughter it right there in plain view of all. Soon the place was full of blood like a horror movie. The rest of the cattle could see it, the blood was running under there feet. But they still followed the butcher to the same area as if nothing is wrong. This all makes slaves and Australopithecus etc different from cows, that are smart indeed, but not smart enough to feel worried about that scenario.

[@user-gl6su3xi6s]

But yes, we do treat animals like shit. I am opposed to the scenario in above post. The cows should live on an open field, and should be anesthetized before getting killed.

[@CaseyCJL]

Wait so the other cows saw the one cow get slaughtered and they weren't freaked out by it? or were they too busy eating food and didn't notice anything. I'm pretty sure if you slaughtered a cow right in front of another one it would get freaked out for sure.

[@user-gl6su3xi6s]

They saw it all. One after another. Multiple corpses on ground with butchers on them. But they didn't freak out. By the end the food was all gone and washed away with red bloody water. Still they followed the butcher. These animals aren't entirely senseless and they do get aggravated easily if you tease them a bit in a personal way or manhandle them. But they had no concept of sensing danger from that scenario. The long domestication period has altered them a lot. Its probably how you can take eggs from most chicken's egg laying area in front of them, and it wont give a shit. Goodluck doing that with a wild or recently domesticated bird species.

[@user-gl6su3xi6s]

^SMH

[@ammadnaeem5069]

Thats why i left Islam while i was a vegetarian and later became a vegan cause i dont want to believe in any evil and bloodthirsty god who has created so much suffering and injustice on earth in first place.

[@sb2126]

This is the kind of ethical argument from a great thinker that I have been waiting to see. I watched a documentary on fellow humans being subject to shamefully cruel treatment in a world war 2 concentration camp and was shocked, saddened and disgusted. Then I thought that they actually put living animals through this sort of misery to feed humans. The animals have no collective or individual rights and no power, they are just doomed to misery and suffering because of us.

[@NothingIsArt1]

Go vegan, if you not already are :)

[@ParadymShiftVegan]

Absolutely 𝔹 𝔸 𝕊 𝔼 𝔻 video. Thank you so much for sharing this philosophical excellence. We will surely look back in abject horror at the wanton abasement and unimaginably heinous cruelty that we so nonchalantly perpetuated upon innocent and vulnerable victims merely for reasons like sensuous taste pleasure, upholding tradition, adherence to habit, and out of sheer convenience.

[@holatio4028]

I believe that the Judeo-christian notion of 'man' as having some sort of divine power within him establishes a very clear dichotomy between 'the human world' and 'nature' as an 'other' (that can be exploited). In fact, there are a few verses in the Bible that I can try and look for - which I believe illustrate how nature is there to provide for us. Not that this was particularly awful 1000 years ago, but in today's world that understanding and worldview is deeply worrysome. I'd argue that such conception and hierarchy is deeply rooted within our mindset in the West, and whether you are religious or not, you might find it nonetheless hard to think outside the box. Many other philosophical traditions and religions are very different in this regard - which is interesting, because a number of these cultures today do perform the same abominations we do in the West today (the thrist for protein and 'things', and the spread of the consumerist mindset, I guess). Any thoughts on this?

[@phpianocover]

So, dear professor, it's time to be consistent with your arguments, and become vegan! ;)