3800’s are definitely slept on, just wish there were more options for aftermarket parts like heads and intake manifolds and stuff
@emersonurbina80422 жыл бұрын
Honestly zzp is extremely overpriced for basic parts compared to other platforms
@jacobburskey30442 жыл бұрын
@@emersonurbina8042 because they are 1 of 2 company's who sell a large amount of parts
@emersonurbina80422 жыл бұрын
@@jacobburskey3044 yeah I understand that but it's still crazy have you seen their CAI it's so cheaply made and cost like 300 bucks I understand performance parts but some things are insane same with intense racing
@emersonurbina80422 жыл бұрын
@JPL Performance that is true and sadly with it being fwd is the reason the platform isn't as popular
@jacobburskey30442 жыл бұрын
Imo parts like that are some you can easily make your own, just as effectively, for a lot less. Specialty parts is when you should go to them like their intercooler/cams/equalizer/etc
@HeartLessGem_ Жыл бұрын
As an aussie, it feels good to see this motor being reviewed and tested, this is a holden 3800 ecotec here in Australia used in the commodore, used from 96 to 04 (from what i understand) both n/a and supercharged in a rwd platform ONLY, heaps of aftermarket support for the 3800 also 👍🏽🇦🇺
@washedwiththeword11 ай бұрын
They did make an awd, the adventra "The Holden Adventra is an off-road version of the Commodore station wagon and was built from 2003-2009. The Adventra boasts full-time four-wheel drive, 200mm of ground clearance along with V8 and V6 engines. The Adventra also has a tough looking body kit with wheel arch extensions and underbody protection." So yeah
@HeartLessGem_11 ай бұрын
@@washedwiththeword i would love to see an ecotec version of the cross6 / adventra, the alloytec was junk because people didnt know how to take care of them, people treated them like ecotecs 😂 hasn't changed the oil in over 40,000 kms and its rattling like charity bucket you throw your coins into 🤣 also seeing a L67 adventra would be awesome aswell 🤷🏽♂️
@HeartLessGem_11 ай бұрын
@@washedwiththeword there's actually a large forum page going into full detail on how to convert a VY/VZ GTO/Monaro to AWD using the cross8 / avalanche drivetrain, essentially turning them into that awd monaro holden produced in the early 2000's, was a great read 👍🏾
@Dr_Xyzt10 ай бұрын
Is there a bellhousing adapter there in AUS so I can bolt a V6 FWD 3800 to a RWD tremec TKX? I built a coyote project that was outrageously expensive, and at the end of the day, I think a really clean turbo 3800 would actually have been better for the car.
@HeartLessGem_10 ай бұрын
@@Dr_Xyzt sure do man, adapter plate too, I'd assume t56's are a dime a dozen, especially LS ones. Type into google - HOLDEN V6 TO LS1 / T56 - ADAPTER PLATE KIT - and you'll find what you need, ill find you a clutch kit aswell 🤙🏾
@lukeanderson57812 жыл бұрын
Love this 3800 content. Especially pump fuel budget stuff. So many L36 and L67s in Australia still.
@davidlee7161Ай бұрын
I'm in nz just bolted a GTX3584RS my 450000km l32 6 months ago it's absolutely lethal!
@thomaselliott4562 Жыл бұрын
The 3800 was an absolute workhorse of an engine. I'm so sorry it was discontinued. My NA Series II is a stock unit in a 2005 LeSabre. Fantastic fuel economy, 34.2 MPG crusing interstate at 70. This is basically the economy of a Honda Accord from a mid-size V6 in a 3700 lb 6 passenger sedan. Nice work you did on the turbo mods!
@leeselset5751 Жыл бұрын
The 3800 made 200hp NA. From a V6 in the 90s, that's massive.
@LOVE-VIBES-X-PROJECT-CARS7 ай бұрын
But almost all the v6 cars from the 90s made around 200 hp
@guntherferguson2369Ай бұрын
@@LOVE-VIBES-X-PROJECT-CARSonly the high end I6/V6's from Audi, Mercedes and BMW made 200+. The top V6's from U.S. and Japanese makers were closer to 170-180. So the 3800 making 205 was pretty impressive for time.
@c0c0asauce2 жыл бұрын
I think I would put the blame on the intake manifold being really bad for the naturally aspirated run. The head work didn't get the chance to shine until you put it under boost. Those two things made the power numbers go from lame to exceptional.
@edmundnlemadim84802 жыл бұрын
I wholeheartedly agree. Doesn’t matter how much you optimize an air pump when it’s sucking through a straw. Now that the engine doesn’t have to overcome an inefficient manifold because it’s being FED air instead of requiring the cylinders to draw it in, the true volumetric efficiency of the engine with the improved head work is revealed. Similar effect is also seen with the LS4 transverse mount V8. They pick up big power when swapped
@edmundnlemadim84802 жыл бұрын
The intake manifold being swapped, that is
@toddlynch72822 жыл бұрын
@@edmundnlemadim8480 There's a fair bit to be said for the E85 in the equation, as well. It's a fantastic high-performance fuel that has an "octane" rating over 100. That gives you the ability to push more boost (or compression) without having to trim timing out. The 3.8L engines, particularly the SC versions, trade lower compression (many variants under 9:1) for higher potential boost. Combined with a good cam and some aggressive ignition timing, you get crazy amounts of power out of seemingly ordinary or underwhelming NA platforms. And it's funny that it could be the heads making all the difference, here. Recall the LQ4 and LQ9 V8 truck engines - same blocks and entire lower assemblies. The difference is literally the heads - the LQ4 had the low-compression head (9.4:1) and made 325hp/370ft-lb while the LQ9 had the higher-compression head (10:1) and made 345hp/380ft-lb. But the LQ4 engines (or, at least the heads) were snatched up by hobbyist drag racers because they took boost a lot better. Less compression means they don't need to pull as much timing out under a given boost load. (And, for the record, without boost, the LQ4 ran just fine on 87 octane "regular" but the LQ9 demanded 91 octane "premium" to avoid pre-ignition.)
@ebperformance8436 Жыл бұрын
I completely gutted my M-90 plenum……I Removed everything….it’s truly hollowed out…. it can never be a Super charger…but it’s a lot lighter. I made sure I didn’t cut into the coolant lines….it was a pain in the ass….the Aluminum is tough on those things.
@dieseldemon8562Ай бұрын
Even N/A, 289 horses and 292 lb ft from 232 cubic inches is nothing I would throw rocks at. Over 600 hp, and 550 lb ft from that, on STOCK INTERNALS, and gentle tuning to limit low speed torque is really impressive. Who would have ever thought a Buick regal had so much left on the table?? Awesome work, and thank you for your legwork putting these combinations together for fun, and the science!
@jerretthensley81557 ай бұрын
From someone whos put his wheel time in on these, several actually. Upgrade your water pump, switch immediately to a inline fuel pump and switch the 4l60e for a 4l80e and have the shift kit installed.
@TotemTom2 жыл бұрын
I can't help but feel that this has more to do with the efficiency range of the turbo than with any property of the engine. I'm curious what the compressor map looks like for this particular GT45. It may have just been that at 1 bar, it was entering its most efficient operating range
@turboL672 жыл бұрын
Exactly this.
@929cosmodude Жыл бұрын
i have played with these turbos a bit and you are correct, they are a bit lazy on lower boost but in my experience once they hit over 20ish psi they really come alive
@tskraj31902 жыл бұрын
I just came to say the 3800 V6 is still a beast. It is the BEST American engineered and built V6 ever. I would say the same about the Ford Ecoboost but those were engineered by Mazda.
@collin38002 жыл бұрын
I have both, in the form of a 04 GTP and a 16 SHO, and the 3800 wins by miles. The Eco makes amazing power, but they're absolutely no where near as reliable, very expensive to fix, and ummm... $3,000 water pump.
@collin38009 ай бұрын
@@scotthoward4836 the FWD 3.5L EcoBoost
@danielsullivan98652 жыл бұрын
That’s what low compression engines do as boost increases the volumetric efficiency increases therefore increasing the Horsepower drastically. We ran a 5.7 LS engine 8.3 to1 compression very sluggish out of boost no power, under boost it was an animal, made 760 rear wheel horsepower at 14 1/2 pounds of boost. 10.5 to 1 Would make more power under 15 pounds of boost but not drastically more.
@Mitchd032 жыл бұрын
i have 2 300zx's one is NA to T with 9:1comp other is factory turbo with 7.8:1 comp, both cars feel about as fast as each other when flooring it, but the factory turbo car and can be a sluggish dog driving thru carparks and tight suburbs unless you keep the revs up, where the 9:1 is much better behaved below 1/2 throttle
@3800S12 жыл бұрын
That's a good point. My friend and I built an NA L36 for his speedway car. He has custom domed pistons and ZZP alloy heads which has 14.5:1 comp on e85 with a moderate cam of 228/228 and 0.543 lift. His goal was a boat load of low to mid torque. It peaks 335hp at just 5000 rpm. It has the yanky series 3 banana manifold as it flows better than the crappy Aussie ones. His car is very successful and comes in the top 10 out of around 100 competitors and is the only V6 out of the top 10 against Barras and LS v8s. Considering the moderate cam it makes good power at low rpm due to good head flow and high comp. I am sure with a proper racing cam in the 260+ duration and ITBs it should get 100hp/L or more with the rest of the combo it has. Interestingly the series 1 3800 here in Aus has much more of a history for NA development than the series 2 did and was even used in a Formula series here and they made 340hp at 6700 rpm on 10:1 comp back in the 90s. They used a flat tappet cam then as they didn't have mechanical rollers that were fully shrouded to prevent oil gallery uncovering back then. And they have tiny 1.76 X 1.5" valves, much smaller than the series 2 and 3. They were also restricted to 60mm single stock throttle as per series rules. I plan to built one of these engines but with modern techniques. Head porting has come a long way since, you can easily run 12:1 on pump fuel with a 260 duration cam with a good tune these days and the cam is available in roller now as well as custom mech roller lifters to suit. Larger throttles are easy to make. I expect probably 360-380 hp NA.
@mddunlap032 жыл бұрын
The higher compression motors make more power every where and spools turbos much faster though and big gains off peak. It will limit you if you are knock limited by the fuel as it’s down side.
@Mitchd032 жыл бұрын
@@mddunlap03 Well aware, the stock ecu is tuned for regular, so I just run premium fuel at stock boost level, no intercooler but with a newer, more efficient turbo than factory.
@FlawleZ312 ай бұрын
@@Mitchd03Hey Mitch, how's your NA-T setup doing these days?
@KarelBeelaertsvanBlokland2 жыл бұрын
Richard - If the 3800 is such a good basis - why don't you try to make a twin-turbo setup reaching the 710HP of a 488 Ferrari Pista? You made already 600HP+ with a single turbo/supercharger setup. It would be hilarious. A GM small block V6 beating a Ferrari V8!
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
700 HP WOULD JUST BE MORE BOOST FROM THE 1 TURBO-NO NEED FOR TWINS-AND WE ARE SHOOTING FOR 1000 HP
@MrKeithgilliam Жыл бұрын
You ever do any work for people I have a lambo Diablo kit car with the 3800 super changed.
@chrisspbacon_2 жыл бұрын
I’m getting ready to turbo my 3800 series 2 in my 1998 firebird, thanks for this video! Looking forward to the build
@joshuajones07810 ай бұрын
Can’t find any turbo kits, do I have to make it all my self or trust the ones off eBay?
@K.O2407 ай бұрын
Is there a guide you're following for this? I want to do the same with my series 2 in 02 camaro.
@shannonsisk2 жыл бұрын
My theory on the hp/psi going up, is how you described taking the plate off the blower and the NA motor wanting more air than the TB opening could provide. As the boost pressure increased more air was going through the throttle body more efficiently and into the gutted blower.
@sykes2292 жыл бұрын
Dang you posited while I was typing
@ltws66578 ай бұрын
Been telling people this for year's. The cars these motors came in make people overlook them, i feel like they havent had their "time" yet. Eveybody usually had the same reaction to my old turbo Grand Prix GTP when i would tell them about it. Kind of a "yea whatever dude, sure" reaction. As soon as they went for a ride, they understood it, love seeing someone else giving the platform some love
@ricardourias806 Жыл бұрын
I’m interested in the 3800 project I know I’m a year late but I just came across your channel today and the content in your channel is what I’ve been looking for
@stephanM52 жыл бұрын
It comes down to efficiency, the more efficient the heads flow air in concert with the cam and intake are what makes power. When you maximize those variables coupled with additional fuel and boost, the sky is the limit on how much power you can generate. This applies to every engine. The pistons and crankshaft merely harness the force generated by the chemical reaction that occurs in the combustion chamber.
@ChevySpeedAddict2 жыл бұрын
It would be awesome to see you do a collab or something with Terrell Smith. He's one of the foremost 3800 gurus and builders in the community. He just finished a Paxton centrifugal supercharged 6 speed build on his Hellboi Grand Prix.
@AmeroBills2 жыл бұрын
I would like to see an actual NA comparison using the actual NA L36 motor which has a higher compression ratio, an then some tests on a top swap and turbo as well using the L67 lower intake manifold vs the L36 version see which makes more power
@pappayeet60322 жыл бұрын
Well 8.5:1 comp certainly doesn’t help the NA setup.
@tomcelica2 жыл бұрын
I think It hurts boosted power the same way
@robbygray95622 жыл бұрын
@@tomcelica boost loves compression. Issue is cylinder pressure. Hard to keep the heads on a motor with high boost and high compression
@tomcelica2 жыл бұрын
@@robbygray9562 boost is a multiplier. It just adds to what’s there
@tomcelica2 жыл бұрын
@@robbygray9562 I guess that depends on what you consider high compression. Guys run 12 and 13 to 1 all the time with boost and e85. It’s just with the higher compression ratio it makes tuning very important
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
Erm the L32 has higher compression than the L67
@joshuanetto9431 Жыл бұрын
Awesome content Sir. Very informative and helpful I always find myself referring back to your ls test videos for ideas on my builds thanks for all the hard work. Cant wait to see whats next.
@bluecollarhotrods97812 жыл бұрын
This reminds me... what ever happened to the 292ci inline six?
@CHINGY19932 жыл бұрын
So hanging for the big bang on this motor. Keep up the great work richard
@johnbehneman154610 ай бұрын
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL. PLEASE CONTINUE TO SHARE YOUR TRUTH.
@jplperformance9073 Жыл бұрын
Love the content, just sent your heads to get ported even more. I can't wait to see the difference in flow
@goodmanboattransport34412 жыл бұрын
The turbo increases the effective compression ratio and e85 combination adds power
@metal-pe8ux2 ай бұрын
Australian after market support for series 2 3800 v-6 , Steel cranked stroker kits 4.2 liters...ported n/a intakes - Dyno tested already - with heaps research published etc.... twin throttle intakes -(twin 69 mil throttles) air to air intercoolers / also water to Air upgrades... Turbo kits twin and single.....LS coil conversions --- basically all sorts of aftermarket parts that makes for lots of v -6 fun...👍👍👍..
@davidroberts6594 Жыл бұрын
Love the NIC cam, low lift, easy on valvetrain and nice lopy idle. Powerband past 6k, been running it for almost a decade. I did try a turbo setup, also on e85, same setup, same empty supercharger housing, 16 psi and no intercooler and no knock, was an absolute beast in boost but a total dog off the line so went back to just supercharged, way more fun on the street from light to light. Why it's weak NA? Has to be the poor flowing heads, they were probably designed to keep pre-ignition knock low but horrible in the flow department. Imagine a 4 valve 3800 supercharged, all the torque off the line but added way more power up high.
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
supercharged is immediate boost-turbo is not-but ultimately more powerful
@kevinengland40422 жыл бұрын
It obviously has the right turbo cam installed!
@Torquemonster4402 жыл бұрын
%100 correct, it's all about selecting the appropriate (boost specific) camshaft. 😜
@highinthedirt2 жыл бұрын
I think on applications that dont really respond to NA tuning is because they have a bottleneck somewhere, usually the heads, and the increased manifold pressure is able to overcome that deficit in pumping loss.
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
Intake drag as well.
@Brock_Landers2 жыл бұрын
So I had a 2001 Honda Accord sedan that came with a 3.0L (J30A1) V6 that made 200 HP with a 4 speed auto. I pulled the J30A1 with the auto trans and swapped in a JDM J32A (basically a J32A2) with a 2003 Acura CL Type-S six speed manual trans and it was alot of fun just in that form. Those engines are 10.5:1 compression and make 260 HP stock. I bought a cheap eBay set of turbo manifolds, a collector pipe, an up-pipe, and a two-piece downpipe, a GTS3582 dual ball bearing, billet compressor wheel turbo, a custom made set of ARP head studs, a Gates RPM timing belt and water pump, a new timing belt tensioner, a set of Injector Nation 1000cc custom made injectors for the J series engines, and I ran it on an AEM Series II 30-6051 standalone ECU. On 10 lbs of boost it made 458 whp and it was definitely a drop a gear and disappear car. Now I have a 2004 Acura TL and it has the J32A3 that makes 270 HP and has an 11.0:1 compression ratio. I can't use my AEM with it because it's plug n play for the OBD2A harness and it's not meant to work with anything newer than a 2003, so I have no clue how I'm going to control fuel and air...yet.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
My friend Jimmy has a turbo J32 (now L35) swapped NSX
@fenatic74842 жыл бұрын
I think that’s a healthy V6, my mother in law’s Olds Ciero that had the 3800 NA and that car ran really good 👍
@rustylugnut88518 ай бұрын
Excellent work! The big bang I'm hoping to see is the 4.3L lv1 out of the v6 Chevy and GMC vans.
@diesel-technology55072 жыл бұрын
Turbocharger is probably right in the centre of its efficiency island, so you've got a greater density of air per lb of boost
@GIGABACHI2 жыл бұрын
Low C.R (8.0~8.5 : 1) + HIGH boost = wicked HP and torque.
@ricjona10692 жыл бұрын
Could the gutted blower be acting as a too large of plenum causing the air flow to slow too much causing there to be no ram effect whatsoever and in fact filling the cylinders less than an NA engine with a normal intake. This would than be overcome by boost making it appear that boost has a more significant impact vs the fact that the NA intake design (gutted blower) is actually working against the natural air flow from high pressure to low as the air slows as it enters the plenum.
@guyforlogos2 жыл бұрын
Very cool tests Richard! Thanks for these great comparisons.
@BDauto862 жыл бұрын
It's a combination of efficiency, heads and cam working well to take advantage of the turbo size and E85 helped as it went up.
@Fk8td2 жыл бұрын
I’d have to say it had to do partially with how pressurized air flows. Pressurize air doesn’t need as smooth of a transition to flow a lot of air. Which is why charge piping doesn’t need to be as large as the inlet. NA cars any air flow restriction has a big effect. I think the other part is the low compression. Low compression do not have the ability to move air into the engine. Turbo cars eliminate this problem forcing air in. Lastly I think it had to do with the turbochargers efficiency range. I’d have to say your just in a very efficient spot on the compressor map.
@fenatic74842 жыл бұрын
I think that the multipler with turbo is the rise over run in rpms. The NA/ the roots and the less than one bar of boost showed that the GT 45 is in synch with the rise in boost to the back pressure. It was more efficient at the 1 bar a/r ratio than the lesser boost and the character of the Roots blower backup pressure. I think that you have revealed an overachiever combination that from 11 psi to 14.55 was the flow vs the compression ratio and the rising boost curve and happy back pressure raised the hp proportionally to the advantage in that sweet spot. Good boost vs back pressure and the cool relaxed mixture was in its wheelhouse. A great phenomenon and I just get a kick out of these kind of discoveries. A relaxed mixture with velocity will yield more power than either a sluggish mixture with less velocity than the 1 bar where you hit that happy place in velocity and mixture. I hope my 394 FE and 7875- 1.25 ar will find that sweet spot!
@seancollins97452 жыл бұрын
I've been thinking about doing a video series on combustion pressure, and how it interplays with inpet pressure etc. The quick answer is, as inlet pressure goes up, the in cylinder pressure production relative to port pressure climbs in a logarithmic fashion.
@fascistpedant7582 жыл бұрын
Cylinder pressure is proportional to intake pressure.
@cstavro2 жыл бұрын
I agree with the others saying the turbo was coming into its efficiency band. Even at 11 psig the turbo is making more power than the engine itself (the turbo characteristics dominate). The small intake valve is a hindrance to high rpm (not what the 3800 was designed for) but the turbo makes up for that. It pushed peak power from 5800 rpm to 6400 rpm. The exhaust valve is sized for a much larger engine and can keep up with the extra air. It's almost as if Buick designed the 3800 to be a turbo motor... There's a Grand National with a series 2, stage 1 stattama cam, ported heads, and a 61mm turbo running 10.5 at around 130 mph. It has to be making over 600 hp, and idles like stock.
@SDKwarrior2 жыл бұрын
I love these videos for us 3800 guys! Super informative as always with your content. I agree with a lot of other comments on how the na intake literally sucks lol. The holden commodore/calais with the 3800 or ecotec as they name them, has a very different intake design that looks like it would flow much better. Getting one here in the us isnt super easy, but there are a few that have gotten some including myself i would love to see you test
@kurrentracing2 жыл бұрын
Bro I'm buidling some now and idk what route to go
@Dr_Xyzt10 ай бұрын
That efficiency computation is interesting. Maybe because this is an Iron engine with a lot of thermal mass, that helps it make good use of the latent heat of vaporization in the E85. Plus, you're probably on the good side of the turbo map in the same spot where the head/cam/intake combo is just starting to quit.
@fascistpedant7582 жыл бұрын
The boost/bar formula is only a very rough ballpark estimate that just happens to work out pretty well most of the time. The low static CR of this engine helps you run higher boost before becoming octane limited on E85. On this engine, the turbo is probably well matched to produce a favorable back pressure/boost ratio at 2 bar.
@kevinkalivoda34422 жыл бұрын
The formula for boost predicting hp assumes the na manifold pressure of 0 psi. I suspect the intake manifold is under slight vacuum (negative psi) when running the engine na which will cause higher gains than the math predicts when under boost. So my guess is restrictive intake manifold and or throttle body. E85 most likely makes a difference as well
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
yes and yes
@jeraldsteinbronn90012 жыл бұрын
Thermal efficiency is a good guess. With a given in-cylinder temperature the metal surfaces will only conduct so much heat, even though the chemical reactions with more air and fuel will create more pressure, thus wasting a smaller percentage as wasted heat through the metal surfaces. Another, although less likely, possibility is that the combustion process is more rapid or more complete under higher boost. Considering back-pressure produced during turbocharging, it seems counter-intuitive that volumetric efficiency would increase with higher boost levels. This would not really be the same set of circumstances as with a positive displacement supercharger.
@spacepope-12 жыл бұрын
I'm about to go pick up one of these puppies on Saturday. Gonna watch these 3800 videos on REPEAT
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
yes
@Dr_Xyzt7 ай бұрын
I just ran this combination in my software. This goes right through the middle of the efficiency peak for that particular turbo and boost level. This setup is awesome. With a sheet metal intake tuned to 4800RPM, it'll be every bit as legendary as the old indy versions of this engine.
@richardholdener17277 ай бұрын
4800 rpm? Software doesn't show you what actual testing shows you
@Dr_Xyzt7 ай бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 I want to move the power peak left, just a tiny bit. A high plenum like on a Boss 302 would give you access to the valley of the engine to clean it up periodically. Of all the engines on your channel, this one is one of my favorites. A little bit of bead blasting here and there to clean it up, and she'll be a rockstar!
@meanman69922 жыл бұрын
Compressor map efficiency, depending on the A/R, turbine and compressor combination, the turbo will prefer to operate within certain ranges, in those islands it will move more air per pound of boost and heat it less. Which results in more power. At the low boost you were probably under that island, and moved into it.
@robertharper87092 жыл бұрын
Where is the boost pressure taken from? If it's below the gutted blower, the engine could been seeing a higher boost pressure at the throttle body entrance than what the gauge is showing. Like others pointed out, the N/A motor wanted more air than the throttle body could flow, there cound be a pressure drop to overcoming the intake restrictions and then the boost reading is taken.
@MagicBeans1988 Жыл бұрын
Depending on the particular motor that you got from the junkyard it may have been a high compression head set up already I say that because Buick makes high-compression heads from the factory Pontiac and Chevy did not offer this as an option but Buick did
@jamesgeorge48742 жыл бұрын
The GT45 really likes gasoline engines in the 3.8 to 4.3 litres / 230-250 cubic inches, and E85 makes boost and timing possible, especially with mild compression.
@tomcelica2 жыл бұрын
How does the gt45 know what type of fuel is being burned?
@NBSV12 жыл бұрын
@@tomcelica The fuel allows for more timing and higher boost levels. Turbo doesn’t know, but it does know when it’s allowed to make more boost.
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
4.3 is 262 CID (Vortec 4300)
@AudioFileZ4 ай бұрын
What exactly was the reason the 3800 was discontinued? Was it emissions or something related? It was so solid and ahead of anything else in almost all aspects. I had 2 Oldsmobile 98's that had this excellent powerplant. Both were so good they cast shame on the car's weak point which was the trans. These were big cars and that motor provided more than adequate torque with amazing gas mileage. This power plant should have been continually produced with , yes, turbo charging. It would likely make a great V8 replacement as such.
@richardholdener17274 ай бұрын
the modern v6 motors now make 100 hp more with better MPG-technology marches on
@bert50032 жыл бұрын
that turbo 3800 would be pretty killer in your project nova if that's still around
@EricErnst2 жыл бұрын
I think the difference can be attributed to the spark timing being a little conservative naturally aspirated. If you added timing, you wouldn't make more power NA, but the boosted combo wanted timing.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
the na had the timing that made max power
@robertrowells51342 жыл бұрын
As several have already replied, some of the issue is probably where you are on the compressor map. Do you have the comp out pressures to go with the boost pressures?
@edwardchristophersen916010 ай бұрын
True that the gutted blower is an impediment to the NA motor, but don't underestimate the low stock compression of the SC motor. The L67 in my Fiero is just slightly built (headers & cold air intake), and gets crap mileage around town, decent on the highway (30), but when I did 85 MPH on a stretch with a 80 MPH speed limit it got 42 MPG. I figure it was the only time it had enough load to boost the compression for a significant distance. I'm pretty sure the L36 would give me better mileage around town & cruising the freeway. I would miss the acceleration.
@richardholdener172710 ай бұрын
a vehicle does not get better fuel mileage at a higher speed-and higher compression will add mpg under cruise
@swatbwana2 жыл бұрын
I wish I still owned my 89 TTA, All I did was change the waste gate up ,down pipe, exhaust some intake and I was in the 11s I really don’t know what horsepower it was making but it was stupid fast for it’s time .
@markrich32712 жыл бұрын
Boost is a restriction. It's only relevant for that specific combination. The cfm is a huge difference between that blower and gt45 making manifold air much denser , e85 will drop the intake air too and let you run more timing from the higher octane content , the turbo doesn't have the parasitic loss .
@michaelputman65802 жыл бұрын
I wonder if he has parts for sale LOL. Absolutely interesting stuff for anyone considering a 3800. A video clip of the highest pull to get the sounds and sights would have made this perfect.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that video is up with dyno pulls
@michaelputman65802 жыл бұрын
Will look for it. This came across my Google feed so I clicked 😁
@juanlanda2441 Жыл бұрын
I am curious at to whether one of these blowers from a 3.8 will adapt to a 5thgen Camaro V6 . Looks like the throttle would be pointing toward the firewall. And if there was a way to adapt it onto the intake 🤯
@dannobee2 жыл бұрын
Did you happen to compare backpressure? As others have said, it could be that the turbo is in a more efficient island on the map. Could also be the porting on the heads, as I've seen turbulent ports improve at different depressions. Obviously boost *could* fix a turbulent port. You've tested E85 enough to know what it'll do, so I'll leave that one to you.
@chrismcfaul50502 жыл бұрын
I think it’s the ring gap/compression for N/A setup vs boosted set up. If you build your bottom end with ring gap for a boosted application it will only make power if the boost is there.. just like if you set the bottom end up for N/A the ring gap is tighter for N/a so that it responds like a N/A should
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
the gap does not change the power-tested it many times
@JD-so1zv2 жыл бұрын
I love you do all sorts of engines
@skami12842 жыл бұрын
Seems intake manifold may be an issue, torque and hp were similar throughout, suggesting its probably not cam?
@DriveCarToBar2 жыл бұрын
Porting helps to a point when you're running NA, but the engine can only suck so much air in per cycle. That's why you see such large gains when you increase compression ratios, because the engine is "sucking" harder to fill its cylinders and compressing that mixture to increase combustion efficiency. It's why leaner AF ratios help right up until it melts something because you turned your cylinder into a cutting torch. Boost allows you to cram more into the cylinder without the drawbacks of high compression and it really allows the porting to play dividends. It's all the little things that add up to fill the cylinders. The bigger ports allow more air/fuel mix through. The bigger turbo pushes more air. The higher boost pressure crams more into the cylinder per stroke.
@moedigzz2 жыл бұрын
I also think the turbo is just getting into it's higher efficiency islands. When you finally reached 1bar/~15psi, the turbo was just getting efficient. If you would have made a few more runs at 18-19psi, 21-22psi, and 25-26psi, I would expect the HP/psi to get even greater until it the curve flatten out around 25-26psi. Some compressor wheels don't reach maximum efficiency until even higher than 25-26psi. Usually the larger turbos and compressor wheels, don't like to make much power at lower pressure. Most generic gt45's use a 69mm/98mm compressor wheel and a 88/77.5 turbine wheel. They are not small turbos, they have made well over the 600hp they are advertised to make. I have seen these turbos make over 800 Wheel hp(920Crank HP@15% drivetrain loss) I would think the engine would make close to 800whp, if not more, at less than 25psi. Using his 33hp per psi, it would only need another 6psi@33hp/psi=200hp. That would push it past 800whp@21psi.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
these are not whp numbers-they are flywheel hp numbers and I have maxed this turbo out previously
@johnbehneman154610 ай бұрын
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD. I DO NOT HAVE ANY ANSWERS.
@MrKeithgilliam Жыл бұрын
At 600 hp what would be engine longevity I guess what I'm asking at what horsepower could it be safely driven daily
@user-uc3zo3bf1s2 жыл бұрын
Hello how are you today? I love your videos and I am an big fan of the v6 parshal to the buick 3.8l or 4.1l have an few of these older engines I like what you have done with the newer engines I. The 3.8l form but what if you added boost to the camaro 3.4l v6 chevys 60* engineer even the hated 2.8l? Juat wondering hope this sparked your wonder some to see. I would also like to ask when you did the fwd intake inside comparison's from high to low why not add boost to that test I thing the low inside would make the best power but what about the rpm of these inside high mid and low what makes what where via each
@j.pett.4718 Жыл бұрын
Q?; from an 'Proud' owner of a GTP 3800 ser. III - NA. ('04 G. Prix): If I were to Mod w the turbo, what are the stresses on the stock tranny ? A intercooler is an obvious must, cause it already runs way too hot, causing some shifting issues...(common problem). All mods wud be for street / showing & reg. Driving, Not Racing. Trying too keep it cheap, reliable, and simple ! (Also.... I'm an enthusiasts, but, not a mechanic... ) Thanks
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
stock trans is not strong enough for this power level
@j.pett.4718 Жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Suggestions ?? Ty
@MrPizzaman092 жыл бұрын
I think the engine works well under boost because of the cam timing is working better for volumetric efficiency when there is more air mass flowing in the runners.
@MrPizzaman092 жыл бұрын
It could also be more thermally efficient with the higher cylinder pressures. These are the only two explanations I can come up with
@3800TURBO2 жыл бұрын
Heads are getting used now. = 600hp. Also the hp per psi will get even larger as the compressor gets into its efficiency island. First thing to die when you turn it up will be a piston crown, but you will have to lean on it. It'll start knocking but still run fine lol.
@moedigzz2 жыл бұрын
I'd say the first thing to go will be the ringlands. Factory cast pistons were never designed to handle the rigors of boost. The second there is any detonation or if the ring ends butt up, the ringlands crack. Forged pistons are best for boosted applications.
@3800TURBO2 жыл бұрын
@@moedigzz ive had first hand experiance with L67 crowns breaking off. They last for some time though. Have run 9sec 1/4 on the cast pistons and the engine is still going.
@iann77472 жыл бұрын
Hey Richard I was wondering if you could do a indepth video on what changing spark plug to a complete modern coil on plug ignition system would look like on the dyno with high end spark.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
it adds nothing
@espenschjelderup4262 жыл бұрын
I think it was diyautotune that did a experiment years ago, starting with a distributor and signal from the distrubutor to the ecu. Then added a trigger wheel. Under very high acceleraion rate in a dyno the same engine with the added trigger wheel gained some power. Under steady state the power would be the same. The important thing is that you have a strong enough spark. Many COP systems don't have very strong spark from the factory.
@tslim250 Жыл бұрын
my 94 regal back in the day was series one na, it would beat a 5.0 mustang all day long. I eventually had to junk it. 17 years later i picked up a 93 regal very similar to it, its slower as it doesn't have the composite intake but overall the thing still pulls harder than most cars on the road and still gets me a nice 24 miles to the gallon.
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
You think an NA 3800 would beat a 5.0L Mustang?
@tslim250 Жыл бұрын
i don't think it, i lived it. the 4t60E transmission may be thought of as weak but what most fail to realize is its geared perfectly for the weight of the car and the power rpm range. The ole pewquick would leave two rubber patches as long as a limo and would dust the mustangs. i remember lining up next to this yellow 98 stickshift 5.0, guy thought he was gonna take me, never saw him after he hit 3rd gear.@@richardholdener1727
@JasonMcCord-qk3yb11 ай бұрын
I don’t know… I bought an ‘89 LeSabre new, and loved it so much, I bought a black on black’92 Buick Regal Gran Sport Supercharged 2-Door (Black leather might not have been the best idea in Arizona, but I owned a small mobile electronics company at the time, so I just had one of my guys install a remote start alarm system to help cool it down a bit.) A bit of tuning, a custom milled billet supercharger pulley and water/methanol injection and she was eating most sports cars alive (She was also eating transmissions and CV joints as well, but that’s a different story for a different day…). I’m still a Buick 3.8 S/C NUT! I’d really like to put one in a Fiero someday….
@gamergaragemedia Жыл бұрын
Have you done one comparing the power gains from installing a turbo setup on the NA block vs on the SC block?
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
that is just added compression-worth 3-4% per 1 full point of na power
@gamergaragemedia Жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 there's a ton of factors you could be comparing by doing an L36/L67 comparison. The peak power at various levels of boost is an obvious one, but also failure points. How many psi can each block run before internal failure? How many psi can each block run on 97 before knock? Which one burns through a gallon of gasoline faster at simulated highway conditions (~2.5k rpm, ~14% load)?
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
I don't have knock detection-that is best done in a vehicle
@maclogan68722 жыл бұрын
It would be interesting to do a hp/ lb of boost comparison on the blowers to illustrate the supercharger’s inefficiency and power consumption.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that vid is up
@TurbochargedHobbies2 жыл бұрын
Have you never done anything with ecotec 2.0 engines? Would love to see you do something with the lsj and lnf ecotec engines, I know the lsj's can make good power with a turbo. Seems to be easier to make big power on the lsj since it's not direct injection like lnf.
@lachlankemp64182 жыл бұрын
We have the Buick 3800 in our Holden commodores here in Australia. Old mate got 1000hp out of his Buick engine just turboed and cammed. These engines are ridiculously strong
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
1000 hp from a stock bottom end? seems like a lot
@lachlankemp64182 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 check out "corn fed boost" channel
@bayarearaised18942 жыл бұрын
Hey I’m intrested in the gen 5 supercharger and the intercooler
@VoldeBurt2 жыл бұрын
Hmm … is there a “6pack” n/a set-up for a v6?
@joegreen40892 жыл бұрын
Not that is it much different but the 14.55 run is more inline with 17.5 lbs of boost. very impressive for the little engine either way, especially considering the factory ratings.
@ElPants212 жыл бұрын
Real bad ring seal NA nearly closing under boost? Plus a better efficiency on the compressor map is my guess
@Wild9C12 жыл бұрын
@RichardHoldener grab an L36 or L26 with the higher compression and see if N/A HP is better?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
it will be-but then turbo power will be up too
@paigestarlin29962 жыл бұрын
@JPL Performance the rods between the series 2 L67 and L36 are identical. The rods in any series 3 are powder forged and slightly stronger but only by a small amount
@littlenino882 жыл бұрын
This video series convinced me to buy a 3800 series II with absolutely no idea what I'm going to do with it. Any suggestions!?
@marthamryglod2912 жыл бұрын
Throw it in a gutted Oldsmobile or any of the same chassis family. They're dirt cheap.
@justins8c252 Жыл бұрын
Have you done the Big Bang yet? I haven’t been able to find one. I’m build a 3800 right now for my 98 Camaro. Have ring gap already installed. 200k .040 wore out. Been watching all these for motivation.
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
I have not
@richardrohr5106 Жыл бұрын
I think all the mods took full advantage of the efficiency of the turbo setup. What compression ratio did it have? Also are any of the parts still available?
@richardrohr5106 Жыл бұрын
And do you kno if they will fit on a series 1?
@richardholdener1727 Жыл бұрын
blower and pulleys are avail
@Fatedcauze2 жыл бұрын
Pretty sure these engines were used in the Grand Prix, with a supercharger. Did they just use the same engine in the lesabres, etc, as NA?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
THEY HAVE NA AND BOOSTED VERSIONS, BOTH SERIES 2 AND SERIES 3
@MrAPCProductions2 жыл бұрын
I would have to think the intake manifold "design" was the increase. I remember seeing similar findings from really terrible designs for NA power making great power under pressures. Someone explained it to me as the difference of a tailgate being up or down. Pressurized air will sit in "pockets" of the manifold and allow the rest of the air to flow past at a higher rate than it does NA.
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
Aluminum intake on Series 3 NA
@rickyr77902 жыл бұрын
Aw no more testing on the 3800? Was hoping to see it on a VSR 7875 etc.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
that is coming
@edwardwood36222 жыл бұрын
Low NA - Low compression High under boost - E85 Higher under high boost -IATs exceeded the vapour pressure of E85.
@sykes2292 жыл бұрын
Do the #'s come back in line if you use the empty blower with open back run as baseline? You said it picked up power. Intake restricted vs E85 + boost?
@deekay45592 жыл бұрын
Are any of the 3800 better than others to start off with? Are there any aluminum heads available for those?
@dennismoran1299Ай бұрын
When is the 3800 big bang going to take place? I would love to see that.
@DemetriusRaydenJohnson-x5t4 ай бұрын
Curious how the supercharged Ford 3800 from the Thunderbird SC compare to the GM supercharged 3800? How different are they? hmm...
@richardholdener17274 ай бұрын
same rotor pack-different housing (inlet and outlet)
@DemetriusRaydenJohnson-x5t4 ай бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks! That Thunderbird super coupe is an under-appreciated vehicle... That can be had still for a very good price... I think it will likely become a collectible.. thanks for the info... I'm all about the budget builds lol..
@Faolan1612 жыл бұрын
Looks like the last combo was responding to back pressure with efficiency. I have a hard time believing e85 would be that much more beneficial, just given the burn characteristics, comp ratio, etc.......
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
E85 is not available everywhere, it requires larger injectors, the only advantage is a cooler charge temperature. You have a better chance of getting 100LL fuel at a GAvi Port than E85 out of a Gas station
@hanzen51742 жыл бұрын
@@shadowopsairman1583 compared to what, race gas?
@danielbartell2 жыл бұрын
What about seeing a GM inline 5-cylinder gas and Diesel
@andycrips Жыл бұрын
Did you ever get the "big bang" on this engine done? Thanks for the great videos!