WHO'S COOLER? WATER METH vs INTERCOOLER

FULL RESULTS-BOOST BATTLE! WATER METH vs ATW INTERCOOLER. HP, Torque, Charge temp and Boost (Very Important). How well does water meth injection work compared to air-to-water intercooler? Who cools best? Who makes power?

[@B0RN2RACE100]

This channel deserves 10 times the views. Just commenting for the algorithms

[@btchhopperou812]

SO true man...YT really sucks a big fat one nowadays with its AI garbage algorithms

[@pr0n5tar]

Sucky

[@davidreed6070]

Imagine Richard And a couple buddies building a motor and car on a weekly TV show and racing on the weekends. Great, yeah.

[@lamontwaters510]

Wish you had some info for a intercooler and water meth injection which is what most people are using in reality.

[@lamontwaters510]

Wish you had some info for a intercooler and water meth injection which is what most people are using in reality.

[@V6turbo]

When you introduce Alcohol you change the burn rate and you have to change timing. No one would leave factory timing if you switched over to Methanol completely. There was much more in the meth kit.

[@kouzman]

You read my mind. Actually I am surprised that it didn't lose power. Not sure how it works on a v8 but day on an intercooled twin turbo porsche 911, power using the same gasoline, methanol injection and tuned for it can increase horsepower close to 100 hp. Spraying before the throttle body. Great analysis but fairly incomplete test IMO. We ought to see timing and of course afr. Guaranteed with the water/meth the car was running pig rich!

[@thud93091]

@@kouzman he was using it for cooling only.

[@kouzman]

@@thud93091 but even then you need to review the timing and afr even just a tiny bit. The spray is a whole different ballgame since it will change detonation tolerances completely. It would be great if repeated the test but checking the tuning for it.

[@WASTED__POTENTIAL]

This is what I came to say. Meth allows more boost and/or timing.

[@ShawnGilbert1967]

@@thud93091 well he had to be adjusting the timing as well or the intercooler test would have shown no increase in power.. The meth did its job...I use 2 nozzles well back from the tb at different angles hoping to get some good mixing, even if overall charge temp is lost to some preheating

[@robertkb64]

The real reason to use water/meth injection is to prevent knock, not anything else. The most illustrative use of w/m injection was seen in WW2 combat aircraft, both US and German (the Japanese only used it very little). When looking for power what matters isn’t boost at all, but air mass. Colder air has more air mass, so will make more power with less pressure (assuming the fuel ratio stays the same), which is how an intercooler works. This setup used a constant pressure gate, so for the intercooler made more power, but increased knock probability. Water and methanol are both knock inhibitors on their own, so in addition to lowering the temperature they also prevent knock. This means that when running w/m to gain the most power you need to use more aggressive timing, or increase boost even more. All things being equal, you can run more timing and higher pressure using w/m than you can with an intercooler - but you can do a lot more using both, as an intercooler is even better at reducing temperature, it just doesn’t do anything for knock (other than heat induced knock, of course). The best easy setup is to use as large of an intercooler as you can fit and increase boost pressure until you either get the power you want or become knock limited using whatever fuel you have available (pump gas for a daily driver, of course), then only add w/m if you need more power after becoming knock limited - which should add another 20%+ beyond where you were.

[@KillJD]

What an excellent and factual comment! I'm going to running water meth on my 2J E46 build and I'm excited. It's going to be pump and wmi, plus flex fuel!

[@mikeruthen6236]

Actually with water meth you can add far more boost than what you can on intercooled engine using 93 oct safely and gain bunch hp on top.

[@robertkb64]

@@mikeruthen6236 that’s what I said, just with a historical example and explanation of why that’s the case :) Lower temp = less heat induced knock Higher octane. = more knock resistance Higher pressure @ constant temperature = high mass air flow Higher mass air flow + more fuel = power So if you really want to go crazy, find some 150 octane gas, run 40 degrees of advanced timing, and 100 inches of water from your turbo, plus w/m injection (fyi - these are real-ish WW2 figures - we weren’t that aggressive with timing, it were using 150 octane aviation fuel by 1944 , but with modern metallurgy we can do what they couldn’t)

[@306familyfarm]

I would like to see egts for each run.

[@turbotysen]

Do a video on different sized charge pipes (2.25” ,2.5” and 3”) for turbo combinations and spool up differences, potential boost creep issues with using the smaller pipes with smaller wastegate vs it working fine with the bigger pipes!

[@1999ekk24]

Bigger pipes spool earlier and the shorter the pipes the better the spool again .bigger pipes also create lower exhaust temperatures because they need less boost to make the same power. I tested 2,2.5,3” on a 300hp sr20 on 16-18 psi depending on the pipes size. If 3 inch is better on 300hp it’s going to be better on everything above it . My next test will be 3 vs 3.5 vs 4.

[@1999ekk24]

The test was also done with 2m of piping with only 2 90degree couplers on the intercooler so the more bends in any system will make the gains of going bigger pipes even greater

[@grumpysteelman]

Matthew Barron - No. 300hp at > 1bar is 350cfm+. The size difference and length between 2 and even 4 inch pipes would be so small that you wouldn’t be able to measure it at that hp level especially since a 2 inch pipe can support over 500cfm. If anything, the smaller cross section would spool infinitesimally faster, as it wouldn’t take as many microseconds to pressurize the tube before the motor - because that’s how that would have to work. Besides bigger pipes would have diminishing returns on your application because the TB is so small - a 3”+TB on an SR20 would be hilarious - and you can’t pretend like big pipes with a smaller TB inline could pay off. I’m sure that you don’t have dyno charts, videos, or pictures of this experiment - prove me wrong.

[@1999ekk24]

Eric Simpson you’re the problem ! After all my internet searching on the topic I was under the same conclusion as yourself except I do not just accept it as facts. I did the test at my mechanic/tuner at the time and the results were as I said, I later Changed mechanic/tuner and tested again just to verify what i had already seen but we also took data of pre and post intercooler pressures, temperatures and also exhaust gas temperatures all on the same day with in 4 hours. If you had a different approach and just asked to see my results instead of telling me I am wrong when you haven’t even tested it yourself I would of gladly shared but you can continue believing what you assume to be correct with out real world testing. Enjoy

[@jridenour31]

​@1999ekk24 Your claim is contradicting itself. Larger diameter has a higher volume. Shorter pipes have a lower volume. Lowering volume one way and increasing it another way aren't both going to improve spool.

[@BIGGELATO]

[ SUMMARY ] [NO IC/WM 2:28] 651HP/587TQ @173F' degrees 8:10 @11.5 psi [WITH IC 6:35] 729HP/637TQ @85F' degrees 10:12 @13.8 psi (IC made more power) [WITH WM] 715HP/575TQ @86F' degrees 9:40 @14.8 psi (WM made more power) 12:02 for boost graph 13:00 for power graph Conclusion: (Richard's opinion 15:01) IC +50HP/50TQ@mid-range (view @ 13:00) P.s. WM vs IC = depends on your application. WM best for big turbo, high rpm peak power. WM may be better for peak power AND... race fuel *WM best for high octane tunes. (important)* WM not cooling evenly in all cylinders @15:42 Cause; long runners. Consider shorter runners or multi-port injections, or different intake manifold. You'll get better cooling with IC overall. Tried all tests but one, injecting directly in the turbo was not tested. 16:33 Richard's takeaway @ 17:16 p.s. If you're considering E85 tune, forget WM. Like I said, WM works best for high-octane tunes. 91 to race fuel. IC best for mid-range, most applications... "IC" = Intercooler "WM" = Water/Meth

[@ghosttheoremproductions5469]

WMI nozzles need to be installed on the outside of a 45-90 degree elbow at least 12" from the TB for good distribution. Those BS throttle body swirl thingies actually help. - NEVER put a WMI nozzle before the turbo. It doesn't matter that it's a liquid and the droplets are incredibly tiny, you are throwing mass into blades spinning at hundreds of thousands of RPMs and it does a lot more damage than you'd think.

[@bentheguru4986]

I couldn't have said it better. Spraying in-front of the compressor wheel (turbo or centrifigul SC) is a fail in the making.

[@erikryan9204]

pretty sure it was just an action shot lol

[@dylanbachora8939]

Good thing volvo tested your theory here. "In extensive testing done by Volvo in the 1980’s on pre-turbo injection, they found that 80,000 to 100,000 miles of pre-turbo injection started to wear the compressor wheel" meaning the wear is so minimal that it only makes a difference after 80-100k miles. That's longer than most people with WMI will ever expect to get out of their turbos. You ignore how fine the mist really is. It's not like a water plane getting worn propellers.

[@KaosProject21]

​@@bentheguru4986 draw through carb setups have entered the chat... 🙄

[@bentheguru4986]

@@KaosProject21 Old school manifold bangers.

[@moisesr7840]

Keep in mind the octain ratings, timing and knock all play a role in the real-world. Which were not taking in consideration in here, though you did touch on it, cause the test was Intercooler vs Water-Meth. I rarely watch 15 minute long videos, this one is a must to watch!

[@fascistpedant758]

I'm glad you cleared up the question of water/meth injection. I can tell from the comments that everything is now crystal clear to everyone. LOL

[@richardholdener1727]

exactly

[@SARJENT.]

@@richardholdener1727 have you ever done any testing using two sets of injectors one set for low boost pump fuel and the other set for high boost methanol?

[@GreenLifeOmaha_GLO]

@@SARJENT. just run e85

[@donmerrigan2362]

The correct answer is obvious. Run both an intercooler and water/meth injection.

[@Turbo_Todd]

Richard, after reading the first 80 or so comments, it is obvious that people are not watching/ listening to the entire video. You said yourself that the long runner dry intake was not good for water/ meth and that was most likely the power difference. You mentioned a single plane or hi-ram setup would be better for water/ meth. You also said more testing is needed! Nice video.

[@richardholdener1727]

I need to put more info in the beginning

[@michaelangelo8001]

@@richardholdener1727 There will always be idiots. You can't fix stupid...

[@414Chevy]

Thanks for doing this one!!! Boost increase probably comes from temp drop. Cooler air is denser air. If intake side is improved, boost goes up. Exhaust side improvement, boost goes down, BUT power still goes up. I'm still confused why the power increased so much with the intercooler vs H2O Meth even though temps were so close. Hmm.

[@stevesedio1656]

With denser (cooler) air, the same boost will provide more oxygen, thus more power. I agree, the water / meth results don't look right. The boost and air temp were very close water / meth and intercooler, why wasn't water / meth wasn't much better below 6000RPM. Evaporation will increase volume, so I would expect a bit less power with water / meth than intercooling. Not that much less.

[@exploranator]

With sloppy water injection one bad cylinder pulls timing from everything g.

[@lordhumungous7908]

I first read about water/meth injection over twenty years ago. Clearly, the charge air is being cooled, but I remember them saying that the cooling effect happens in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke where the water completely evaporates. I guess their is no practical way to measure this. Great video! Thanks.

[@Nate-oh1wg]

I’ve blown my car up 2 times (#7, #8 pistons) running only w/m. Now I’m water to air with water meth and a single plane. Learned my lesson.

[@crw3673]

I guess you don't get equal distribution of the water/methanol, specially at the rear of the engine. Good thing to know.

[@champspec]

Was this an LS engine? Where was your nozzle? Let me guess spraying directly into the manifold, in front of the TB... What manifold were you running and how much power were you making?

[@michaelgunning347]

Location of the meth injector , I’d still say injector to the runners , will not give enough time to affect density , no you need to redo the test , from the rotary engine which are pigs for heat , the Meath only showed any gain after 14 psi and needed to be over 18psi to show gains Wurth the cost , and these were intercooler as well

[@malcolmwatson7609]

During WW II some German aircraft used water/meth injection. It didn't work, not enough time for heat transfer to air. From Frank Walker on water injection..... German engineers tried water injection (Wassereinspritzung) on their gasoline engines, but with limited success. Germans, who were very good at building high- precision pumps, had perfected direct fuel injection for their large aircraft engines. German engineers injected water directly into the cylinders as well. Since the water did not have time to evaporate and cool the induction air, the large cylinder inlet temperature reduction was not achieved. Frank learned of this while reviewing a report on a captured German aircraft engine.

[@RandBLSWorld]

Thanks Richard ! You me help with separating the flysh*t from the pepper when it comes to engine info !

[@adamarndt7617]

Great conclusion. Agree 100%. Water meth is appropriate for an intake that was designed for wet flow (single plane is ideal); if running an intake designed for dry flow, find a way to fit an intercooler.

[@waynebeaver4096]

This channel is a godsend for anyone scratching their heads on where to begin.

[@Alfaduk]

The fact of the matter is, water or water/methanol injection displaces air. Even if you could somehow fully evaporate it, the water/WM displaces air. The air is cooler, but there's not actually more air molecules in the same volume. But the intercooler removes heat from the air charge without putting anything into the air. If you had a hugely efficient intercooler, 1 that could remove enormous amounts of heat energy but still flowed well, on a supercharged engine, the air would become so dense that boost pressure after the intercooler, would drop. Cold dry air is more conducive to making power than cold damp air. But(!) that water is able to absorb a lot of heat energy when it evaporates. And it can really only do that in a really, REALLY hot environment! There just isn't enough time to evaporate a reasonable amount of water in a relatively cool environment like the inlet plumbing and manifold. But inside the cylinder, even on the induction stroke, in the coolest parts of the cylinder/combustion chamber areas, the heat is much, MUCH higher than the inlet manifold. It's inside the cylinder where the water can evaporate, absorb a lot of heat energy and in the process, lower the combustion chamber temperatures and effectively increase the knock limit of the fuel being run. Then you can take advantage of this in tuning. Any excess fuel that is added to try and quench knock, could be reduced. And timing advance that was otherwise removed to keep knock under control, could be reintroduced. That is where the real power from water/WM injection comes from.

[@LSXvoodoo]

Great content as always. How about making a video about turbo lag, a too little turbo vs too much turbo for DD vs Racing. Keep them coming..

[@bartpang]

It's really hard to simulate turbo lag on engine dyno because the rpm sweep is controlled and pulls are made a WOT.

[@fascistpedant758]

@@dj4monie Why would a V8 have less lag??? Mirrored turbos are mainly for aesthetics and might help with packaging. They don't make more power.

[@austindoud273]

@@dj4monie everything you just said was wrong

[@GroovesAndLands]

@@bartpang Agree it's very difficult to simulate lag/response characteristics seen in a car with the dyno - but it's NOT difficult to conceive a test that allows you to compare lag/response differences between different turbos. The SF902 water brake dyno is capable of holding a steady rpm. All that's needed is to have brake maintain, say, a steady 3000rpm while you go to WOT. Repeat at 3500 and 4500rpm. This will create several different boost vs. time data traces. Swap to a different turbo and repeat tests. You'll see very different curves.

[@yotaismygame]

BW S366

[@manitoublack]

Would be great to do some static load, static RPM tests. Say 5000RPM wide open. Hold for 60-120 seconds. Test No IC, A-W IC, A-A IC and WM. + water spray on A-A IC Oh yeah and you really need to get a 3 port mac valve, they've only $30-40. I'm sure Westec can afford one ;)

[@richardholdener1727]

all of it

[@s4060]

This please!

[@RJHMcGonigal]

Wouldn’t the true advantage of the water-meth injection be that it would allow you to run higher boost (and/or timing) while avoiding detonation? It makes sense that there was not much power gain from WM injection because even though you’ve cooled the intake charge, you’ve added H2O to the mix resulting in a slower combustion speed (similar to high octane gas). I understand that this test was just a direct comparison, but if the same 2 combinations were run with optimized (and maximized) boost/timing/AFR then surely the WM combo would come out leaps and bounds ahead of the IC combo(?) Love your vids Richard, keep it up!

[@richardholdener1727]

IC is better than WM

[@dirtyfax]

3 year old video but I'm just seeing it. I'm on Saturn Sky/Solstice forums where everyone is trying to get their cars as close to the 400hp reliably limit of the stock internals. Max power on the cheap is the goal. Stock turbo's with a larger compressor wheel, larger charge pipes, larger downpipe, and a bigger intercooler is the combination. Some run E85/E47 tunes to get a little more. I was debating keeping the stock intercooler and running water/meth since i can't get E85 in my area. After this video I think i'll just go with the bigger intercooler instead of messing with adding wiper fluid to my intake. I won't have to worry about the pump going out and burning up my engine. Good information in your video.

[@highrzr]

Nice info. I especially appreciated the comment about the intake manifold was designed to flow air only. That point is sometimes overlooked by people.

[@laiky71]

Your charge DENSITY went up, even though boost is only slightly different

[@zfreak2808]

Yep. And the boost creep is responding accordingly. Should have run two wastegates.

[@brianhoffman5414]

I was unaware to the potential distribution issues when adding meth, good stuff Richard you just giving me more to research. LOL

[@Cheap0]

Great info man as always nobody else gets the details down to a t like u fairly new to ls game in a s10 but if I gota question I come here ... Richard never fails ..........

[@deegan727]

Every time I’m wondering about anything cam,turbo,supercharger,nitrous,E85,meth etc. etc. Richard done tests on it. Seriously Richard you save a lot of people a lot of time and money. Thanks.

[@richardholdener1727]

WE R ALL CAR GUYS (AND GALS)-WE HAVE THE SAME QUESTIONS

[@deegan727]

@@richardholdener1727 Your doing a great job answering them all, and we appreciate it.

[@jaydnisevil]

Awesome! Well done! Keep up with the direct comparison videos! You're making isolation bearable! :)

[@reidhanson8789]

Hey Rich, I absolutely love all the combos that you put together. I'd love to see a single plane manifold port EFI with a elbow, 103 throttle body with a base plate meth injection, and then run it with and without the intercooler. The cooler the better you say. Thanks again for all that you do.

[@jeremyl4600]

I love that you read the comments. Big fan and been watching for a while now. Ask me how i see this turning out. It may shock you.

[@richardholdener1727]

I love the comments-best part of doing this

[@jeremyl4600]

@@richardholdener1727 i think you should capitalize on what you have started and see that you are the R&D guru for us the hot rod community. All others are pushing products. You are basically the lead guy in this area and im not sure you see your potential to reach more .

[@sanger440]

Good stuff. Logical confirmation test would be single plane 4 barrel type intake with an elbow and a plate system for the meth. Maybe Egt probes on each cylinder to as a way to monitor cylinder to cylinder distribution patterns.

[@dilsher12]

I would like to see if a single plane intake manifold helps with better distribution

[@troyclaerhout3005]

Same here, I'm running a Victor jr. With an elbow on my ls in my 32 pickup build. I'd like to mount the turbo in the grill shell w/o intercooler and run meth I'd bet the distribution would be a lot better and the turbo would have zero restriction of fresh air. I'm thinking single nozzle at the wheel.

[@tbl8560]

Richard, thanks for another interesting vid. Especially the insight into wet distribution. It would be great if you can provide details of parameters that influence power. i.e. fuel, timing, etc to help further understand the results. If timing wasn't changed, I suspect that fueling was being corrected to support the denser IC air and resulting significant HP increase. Observations - I suspect w/m IAT measurement was due to sensor being in the spray stream and not a true reflection of induction air temp. Spraying pre-turbo likely to provide the most accurate results for comparative purposes. Surprised that boost pressure was higher with IC? Cooler denser air? Thanks again for peaking our interest with all these tests!

[@garybegay3028]

Make test with non intercooler with E85 . Also E85 as a cooler with E85 coming from fuel injection.

[@lindsaydempsey5683]

Another great video Richard, thank you. Nice so see real data for a good quality air to water intercooler. I know that you can't test all combinations, but related to this test it would be good to see a comparison between knock-limted power without intercooling vs knock-limited power with a good intercooler. I'm pretty sure that would be a powerful demonstration of the many benefits of intercooling. Looking forward to the air vs water intercooler video, up next :)

[@niknasstie]

Be awesome to see you test the killer chiller intercooler set up. Using the refrigerant and ac compressor instead of water. It definitely works but compare it to a water with ice set up.

[@TMgarage540]

Juicy info! This guy deserves more attention on KZbin!

[@Godsy_Garage]

Big fan of your videos ! Guna build me a turbo last set up here soon I’d love to see more videos for the 5.3 and 6.0s ! Your always super informative with proof to back up what you say.Also your a good teacher I’d like to see videos on tuning if you could!

[@mechanicsdiary1438]

as always great testing , answers a lot of questions i had..

[@fabricobblegarage9545]

Great video! It would be interesting to see mass air flow numbers on these runs. Also a fallow up video with per cyl nozzles.

[@leepederson5254]

Love this channel. Great work, and presented well.

[@leebrady6326]

I would like to see the water meth before the turbo and with the inter cooler, also before the turbo.. Even so very good information for turbo and intake temps to keep in mind..

[@richardholdener1727]

you don't want wm before the intercooler

[@hoonaticbloggs5402]

I had a 1993 Mitsubishi evo1 with a manual water spray onto the air to air inter cooler. On a long uphill run in Germany it was pulling 135 on the clock, I sprayed the cooler and it hit pushed 140 on the limiter. My practical proof cooler charge works.

[@tunerdadtunerdad7927]

Very nice test...I really appreciate the work you do. I dont run intercoolers anymore...I am a water injection guy. That being said.. It is a packaging issue for me. My cars always get faster and pick up boost when removing the intercooler...but my cars don't have the realestate for an appropriately sized AtA intercooler.

[@sexyfacenation]

i imagine you add timing when injecting water ?

[@jamesgreen2364]

I think a single plane intake fuel injection system, with a plate style water meth injection system would be the best, if you aren't going to run an intercooler.

[@fgchotline3964]

James Green but will that give it enough time to remove the temp from the charge?

[@btchhopperou812]

@@fgchotline3964 yes it will because it actually is done in the combustion chamber- this is possibly why he claimed the differences in IAT seemed somewhat Insignificant in his test. I believe the true cooling effect from meth/h20 is most notable under compressions/during combustion perhaps. By and far the greatest benefit is from running a combo of IC AND meth injection being the meth SUBSTANTIALLY elavates the OCTANE in the charge and H20 handles the temp drop... Sorry for the ramble, hope I was at least somewhat helpful LOL

[@salvadordollyparton666]

Like he said, he'd like to see port injection kits...

[@oliverscorsim]

I prefer meth but on my DD I have noticed a nice tq gain on Cruze. Hit a small hill with it set at 5lbs and the boost jumps when it comes on even with Cruze control on

[@madvtecyo546]

I’m not even a v8 Guy. I drove Honda’s my whole life. I have a boosted s2000 making a cute 430whp haha. But I Love the channel man. Seriously makes me what to LS swap something.

[@richardholdener1727]

My last Honda was a sweet, sweet, VX-gave it to my Buddy Chad Reynolds last year-50=5 mpg Freeway. Miss it so! Lots of Hondas in my life.

[@madvtecyo546]

Richard Holdener awesome! I had a VX hatch at one point. With the awesome lil single cam Vtec-E, Running on 1 intake valve per cylinder instead of 2 at low RPM to save even more gas. Pretty cool design. With All this LS stuff crazy to think you drove a civic 😂 You’re a real car guy for sure. Love all makes and models. Anyways take care. Keep the videos coming 👌🏼

[@kar6994]

Snow now makes an individual runner kit,you can plumb your nozzles whevever you want them.they make universal kits as well as application specific kits.lots of options. I also am waiting to see the results of your pre compressor iat test.

[@bcbloc02]

If you have the space and the weight won't kill you I would always prefer the intercooler over any other method. I have pulled 450+deg of intake temp out before with water injection but nothing is worse than having the water fail to come on for some reason and blowing your pistons out the tail pipe. :-(

[@superkillr]

Fact. That is the chief downside of liquid. Sensors, pump, nozzles.

[@exploranator]

Curious if all parameters were optimized for each setup, including advancing the timing, if water was injected proportional to the overall fuel/air mass, or it was just a dumb-inject constant-flow and settings not optimized for each setup. If timing, for example, was not advanced for the cooled versions, then a lot of the potential for power gain was merely squandered. Also, having water proportionally injected at each cylinder's port would make it so one hot cylinder was not dragging down the entire engine.

[@futten3230]

would be good to see the same thing done with blow thru carb setup

[@VTLIFE-so4dc]

It's 2020, bro. Should Richard run a points distributor, too?

[@otm646]

Who is trying to run a turbo and a carburetor, EFI stand alone is $1,000, much less if you go with factory components.

[@kar6994]

@@VTLIFE-so4dc sure, why not if that's what you have.

[@kar6994]

@@otm646 a lot of guys still running carb.not saying it's better but it's what I have.

[@roykrossin8343]

I’m building a 5.8 blow thru , air to water or just air intercooler is my question !

[@ts302]

Once again Richard great work and thank you. I'm a little late to the party, however, as a cheap and dirty DIY experiment, why not use a tunnel ram intake with Nitrous plates to inject the water-methanol. Better distribution, introduced early for the W-M to work it's magic and the ability to use the nitrous/gas jets in the plate system to adjust distribution.

[@SloppyMechanics]

I pushed every button

[@richardholdener1727]

points for you

[@garymorel1882]

@@richardholdener1727 mr. Richard I noticed a lot of people are saying that you should’ve bumped up the timing on the meth injection Because of the density and the higher octane rating of the meth My question is have you tried this I’m just curious about the results and if it did make up the difference to compare it with the inner cooler anyway thanks for everything I know this video is old but we still watch

[@ForneyRider]

Thanks for this and all the other. A common mod for a blown Mod motor stang was injection. Svo blower could benefit.

[@faststicks2]

I've watched a lot of car videos and these are some of the best by far

[@GroovesAndLands]

Back in the day I had a turbo thunderbird with the 2.3L. I had a big turbo and a big air/air FMIC on it. Then I added a water injection arrangement (sometimes I'd dump a bottle or two of rubbing alcohol into my tank to supplement the water). Two key take aways: 1. After a zero to 140mph to zero run, with the water injection, my intake manifold was icy cold to the touch...Not the case with only the FMIC. 2. When I pulled the cylinder head off, the insides of that engine were SPOTLESSLY clean. I mean, clean as a whistle. Never seen a cleaner engine that had ANY runtime.

[@Sir_Theodore_Wigglesworth]

Was your IAT sensor shielded from the the incoming WM hitting it directly? If not, could this have effected the results of the large temperature drop measured? Did the individual runner sensors match the temperature drop of the one behind the throttle body? Great content as always! Love the data!

[@fabricobblegarage9545]

Was timing the same on all three combinations?

[@richardholdener1727]

yes

[@b20vtec83]

This is why... W/M quenches flame front /adds octane. Needed more ignition advance. But cylinder distribution was a factor as well. Keep the vids comming Richard!

[@bigjohn1948]

Fabricobble TV also you need to take away some fuel for the methane

[@incolink]

Yeh we would really like to see you come back to this with twin gates and lean on the timing..

[@1999ekk24]

Do all of the above plus pre turbo injection as that is how it’s properly done, then you have a proper comparison. Thank you for all your hard work, best engine performance channel there has ever been !

[@davidthurman2267]

Best channel on KZbin for gear heads

[@justRD1]

I needed this video!! I’m using water/meth between my compound turbos and a FMIC after the second one.

[@charliedee9276]

My old Saab 900 spg I ran h2o/meth injection through the individual runners, easy to do with the layed down engine design, ran it with the factory air to air intercooler. Allowed quite a bit more boost before the APC detected knock and dialed it back.

[@richardholdener1727]

those were cool

[@farinafranqui]

Water going from liquid to gas increases in volume. This volume contributed to the boost pressure displacing the air and lower power output. This is why you see a major A/F change that is not all from the methanol...its from air displacement also.

[@mikew6135]

I wonder if you have ever done a test where water/meth works? Many have but you seem to have a lot of issues with the systems. You added boost and LOST horsepower made same power as non intercooled run with a cooler intake charge. Very interesting testing. I'll keep looking for a successful test by you. Thanks for your efforts.

[@richardholdener1727]

it only adds power if timing is increased or you use straight meth or boost is increased

[@keithdaniels1994]

Very interesting. The IC causing a difference in boost I can see. I don't get the rise in boost for the WM. It's been around for a long time with good results. Anyway, thanks for the good science, this saves me a lot of money. Was planning a WM set up but maybe not now.

[@alexisthemexican]

He kept timing and fuel the same on all runs. You could squeeze more power with a meth injection

[@richardholdener1727]

no

[@robwhite240z]

I tried on a 6 cyl draw through carby , putting boost pressure onto a sealed water meth bottle that would then spray onto the top of the carby. more boost = more spray, it worked.

[@pospc2]

Another snow user here. Been running it on a mixed use car ( some street driving,trips to Mexico and drag strip) for going on 3 years. Not a problem. I have pump mounted in the trunk so its away from the elements. Going to buy another kit for my daily that i want to turn up the boost.

[@ZergZfTw]

You should try pre turbo methanol injection, Cosworth used pre turbo methanol injection on the XB Champ car engine in the 90's, so there has to be something to it.

[@aaronnoyb]

On a big budget race car, go for it. On a budget, you don't want the erosion that the water or methanol, droplets will cause. The better the atomizer nozzle works, the less erosion will be seen.

[@ZergZfTw]

@@aaronnoyb True, it's probably not the best choice for road course or endurance racing, but for a street/strip car or drag car that will see relatively little time in heavy boost I don't think it would be to much of a concern. Besides a low budget build with a junk yard ls and eBay turbo isn't going to have a infinite life anyway. I would bet a cast piston letting go would kill a turbo long before the methanol damaged the compressor.

[@ZergZfTw]

@@bigboreracing356 Good point. Compressor wheels aren't that expensive to replace.

[@davidstewart4001]

Love your site! Direct and to the point ! I feel in this comparison - the water component of the water/meth mixture is killing the HP and making it not show gains. You have shown the charge temp is dropped equally (whether its intercooler or water/meth) So its some other factor. The only other variable is the ‘water’ which is not combustible / chokes power

[@Dr_Xyzt]

I think the intercooler and turbo combination is working in an indirect way. When you decrease the density of the air after the turbo by cooling the air, it changes the place on the compressor map where the turbo is operating and might put it into a more efficient spot. -- The water meth forces the methanol to evaporate, and that vaporized methanol takes up more space, similar to the way an engine runs on propane. So, the amount of air-mass after the turbo does not change. -- Do the cylinders that get the cool methanol get a higher EGT? In theory, they're getting more fuel that combusts better. Methanol doesn't kill power when you run it rich. It has very ideal chemistry with a minimal amount of decomposition necessary to burn the fuel molecules.

[@alanspencer55]

2

[@cybercrimesound]

Learning so much with every video! Thanks Richard 🙏

[@Pipitarutor]

Have you done any testing with water/meth before and after turbo/supercharger?

[@leepederson5254]

Pipitarutor prob not with the heat.. but good question

[@bryanleverett2830]

Pipitarutor I’d love to see some meth sprayed through a maxed out roots blower (before the rotors).

[@chrisdragosh8034]

Individual port water methanol ejection would have actually given you even lower power output. The problem is in your tune, the water vapor slowed the combustion process, adding timing would have produced the same results as the intercooler.

[@richardholdener1727]

incorrect

[@randystingray6544]

Another awesome video Dr. Richard Holdener. Man o man you sure stirred the pot this time. I would like to hear what Mr Snow has to say, think it would be great input. I would have bet the water/meth was the ticket. I better make room for a intercooler!!!

[@richardholdener1727]

Matt and guys at Snow are awesome

[@moparenthusiast2046]

I like Your Channel Richard, due to real engineer approach to the subject.

[@ekess7458]

How about some turbo testing? I'm very interested in that 7875 next gen vs the Borg t4 s475. Also would like to see how far an s366 or s369 can go on a 5.3. The back pressure vs boost is great info!

[@alj2264]

I think the s475 would be a great comparison and probably would outperform the 78-75 ...if you use a T4 house with a .91 A/R on the S475 if I'm not mistaken this would balance the inlet and outlet of the turbine making it very responsive...

[@Ali-bz9gd]

Good stuff, this channel is a gem for any 1 interested in Lsx dyno mix

[@jeremyl4600]

Ive got several ways i see this video progressing

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

Wish you had done an E85 fourth comparison run with these three, I feel that would have been a real world deal as would cover the 4 most likely options for DD

[@richardholdener1727]

e85 does improve charge cooling

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

I was referring running it on straight E85 with that particular combination as a direct comparison as this would be a practical option for a daily driver, one can theorize all day but real world back to back testing like this, as they say "the proof is in the pudding"

[@tobystacy959]

The point was charge air density for the same temperature. Intercooling made the air way more dense thus more fuel (if closed loop it did it automatically) and more power. Now similarly with meth injection, you can get away with much more boost and timing before detonation occurs, but you won't make the same power for the same temperature as intercooled

[@richardholdener1727]

we don't run closed loop

[@josedolores6262]

It would be AWESOME if you test and build a vortec 8100, i always had a curiosity for that engine....excellent content btw

[@austindoud273]

They need rods and pistons 1st thing the stock stuff is literally garbage

[@richardholdener1727]

I literally (lol) disagree-given how far we have pushed other stock garbage stuff

[@austindoud273]

@@richardholdener1727 our lord and savior sloppy decrees it so

[@robsheffield4371]

Love to see this using E85

[@azza9575]

I have seen somewhere , e85 takes the need away for water/meth

[@SoftiesTruck]

Az Za E85 really has that big effect on cooling? What IAT temp difference are you seeing on E85 vs no E85? Thanks man

[@michaely6665]

The dyno curves for WM are odd..... WM almost equalled IC power & torque at high rpm, but was far off in mid range, there must be some water:fuel ratio problem occurring with WM at lower revs, or the manifold design like Richard said. The reason to run Water injection is for more boost in safety from destroying engine, this test didn't explore that. Test did show a good intercooler is preferable for power without complex tuning needed, but not all cars have space for all the piping etc.

[@LuisS1k_]

for how cheap and easy it is to run a water meth kit. its a win for me. im running a water meth on my 2014 silverado gt45 12lbs with no intercooler.. was there added timing to the engine with running the water meth taking advantage of the cooler IATs, putting the 1 nozzle in front of the turbo should cool the air being compressed by the turbo and have the 2nd nozze at the tb should do a bonus. and do intercooler with water meth, and WIC with water meth aswell.

[@krakdaus5442]

All these videos have so much great information.

[@shaneriley8803]

On this video especially and others it'd be nice if you could pan around and show us the complete Plumbing on the headers to the turbo that looks like a combination I could use but I can't see the left side of the engine thank you please respond back

[@richardholdener1727]

the walk around video showed the left (passenger) side

[@davidleslie6207]

I'm going to guess that the high rpm boost spikes on both the IC and WMI are from greater charge density. Which in turn increased the quantity of exhaust gases for the WG to process causing the rising boost at high RPM. I'm also going to guess that the WMI caught up with the IC on the top end because the distribution equalized at high RPM. I believe the distribution equalized bc the velocity was high enough at the upper RPM and/or the turbo outlet temperature was high enough to boil the water MEOH mix. Higher temperatures cause greater atomization and higher water saturation of the air. More then likely it was a combination of both Temp and Velocity. So port WM injection would be interesting, but would the WM have enough time in that short distance/time to absorb the heat energy before it hits the intake valve. Thereby increasing the charge density before the intake valve, allowing more charge into the combustion chamber? Another cool test for WMI would be Octane increase or knock resistance. Because at the end of the day boost is not the end all be all of it. It's more like how much power can I make without breaking the bank or breaking parts.

[@richardholdener1727]

the distribution did not equalize at high rpm-difference in temp of cylinders was over 100 degrees-difference increasing with rpm on the WM

[@GroovesAndLands]

If there was greater air density with the water/meth - why did the engine not make more power?

[@Saddedude]

Richard you are on the right path talking about the water meth distribution at the end there. Further from the throttle body means more time for charge cooling and better atomisation, talk too the guys at prometh about it. Going pre turbo is well worth it. However i think you are correct about it not solving your distribution problem, i would hazard a guess you are actually spraying too much and not getting everything vaporized. I would add that your charge temp is dropping BELOW the temperature that water vaporizes well. I would swap too pure methanol for better vaporization (methanol boils at 148f/64.7c vs waters 212f/100c). With 68* charge temps the water is probably not vaporizing very well. Water has some other characteristics that prevent it from vaporizing well such as surface tension that are worth mentioning but i wont expand on them in a youtube comment. I am curious on what size of nozzle you are running. Pro meth recommends 100% water target 8-10% of fuel flow 50/50 mix target 15-20% of fuel flow 100% methanol target 20-25% of fuel flow

[@drewlarson65]

This boost creep is from non-linear gas expansion mostly from the adiabatic effects of the inert gasses i.e. nitrogen acting as a pumping fluid that isn't participating in the combustion process. Air is mostly nitrogen and no one seems to remember that

[@Ryl33hz]

as a science nerd, I absolutely friggen love your videos.

[@richardholdener1727]

Glad you like them!

[@danielferguson6135]

Why not both?

[@bdugle1]

By my quick/dirty spreadsheet, a change in charge temp from 173 to 86 makes about a 10 lb/min difference in air due to density. That’s about 100 hp! Like other comments, I’m wondering if a carb-style single plane would work better with the water-meth injection. Ditto also on the tuning parameters-was there a big timing difference? How about water-meth injection well before the throttle body, assuming it gets triggered near or after full throttle. It seems like once the charge was cooled, it would stay cooled. More tests!

[@craigyoung3449]

C can you please show us where you put the second nozzle for the watermouth before the throttle body thanks much appreciated help,s of knowledge from this Video 👍👍👍👍👍

[@richardholdener1727]

should be shown in the photos

[@414Chevy]

Ahhhh!!!! water meth plumbed into the nitrous port on the manifolds, like the FAST manifold. Make an adapter.

[@gmcnelly2468]

You know, Banks says it is all about charge"density". The calculation is a little complex, but no longer uses boost pressure. May want to get his take on the matter.

[@richardholdener1727]

I know Gale and understand Charge Density-this is not that

[@gmcnelly2468]

@@richardholdener1727 Richard: no offense intended by my earlier response.

[@leviholt3821]

If the W/M nozzle was further from the intake would that help with distribution and provide better cooling across the ports?

[@GroovesAndLands]

Maybe? I think the key take away here, is you should NOT rely on good wet-flow distribution through a manifold designed for dry flow; especially a long-runner one. The early LS1/LS6 guys that ran wet kits discovered time and time again how easy it was to blow apart a manifold on account of puddled fuel combined with a backfire through the intake. I believe the FAST manifolds back then even had a pop-off valve feature designed to help prevent the manifold exploding.

[@boosthit811]

With spraying in front of the compressor wheel I think that may help close up the clearance between housing and impeller. Possibly a similar effect as superchargers get causing a small efficiency jump and boost increase?

[@bakzpf]

My man, grinding it out in his living room after dinner with the kids!

[@aaronliddell4280]

So is there any disadvantage to running both (intercooler and meth/water)?

[@markburkey6371]

There is such thing as making an engine too cold...but if you do it right, it works great!

[@aaronliddell4280]

@@markburkey6371 so at what point is the engine considered too cold?

[@markburkey6371]

@@aaronliddell4280 not sure, that's just what I've always been told...🤷‍♂️

[@aaronliddell4280]

Richard, can you touch on this?

[@Parents_of_Twins]

Could the increase in boost be from the expansion of cooled air? We know that Pressure*Volume=nR*Temperature so if the temperature of the air is increasing near the end of the run that could lead to an increase in Pressure=Boost at that point in the system. I have to say I like the way Gale Banks is dealing with this by not worrying about boost pressure but instead looking at air density. I don't know if this is a usable hypothesis or not.

[@flipacre8747]

The first increase above 6000 rpm is because water is denser than air. At high load the waste-gate expelles the same amount of back pressure, but because the exhaust is now denser from all the added water the exhaust pressures remains higher even after the waste gate and more exhaust equals more boost. Plus this is also when boost pressure will typically be at its peak giving the greatest benefit from water/methanol injection or intercooling. That is why you saw a serious hp increase after that rpm. This is the same with the intercooler because colder charge air means more air is going into the motor which equals more exhaust as well. Water/Methanol works best with high RPM boosted motors that have exhausts and intakes specifically tuned for it when charge and exhaust pressures reach extremely high levels. The same can be said with an intercooler, but it also does well at lower loads of rpm and fuel and also can benefit from an exhaust and intake tuned for it. To where in this case you're using an intake and exhaust combination meant for either forced air with water injection or an intercooler, or both, or just a naturally aspirated setup. A tuned system would reveal more dramatic results, especially with a motor designed to exceed 9,000 rpm while under boost (which are rare). This test would also reveal more with a tighter system, a system not designed to deliver naturally aspirated back pressure and a larger waste-gate with a stronger spring in it. Also a stronger spring in the blow-off valve. I know to make an expensive video like this you're erring on the side of caution, but you could have given it a little more to drive the point home. Thanks for the video and I hope you make another giving one with a cam tuned for a bit higher RPM and stronger springs all it's got.