Part 4 - Denon AVR-X6800H - Inhouse Review Measuring Audyssey and Dirac Calibrations

[@gregwillis4001]

Waiting for a video to drop is like waiting for Christmas eve to cross over into Christmas morning, especially if the product is in your list!

[@ripewave]

Thanks!

[@TheaterAtReference]

Thank you again for being the Go To place for all the detailed reviews you've done, it empowers the end user to make educated data based decisions not just marketing based decisions.

[@ripewave]

Very kind. Glad to hear that the presentations are perceived as intended. -Jon

[@dannysmyl677]

This channel is awesome - keep it up!

[@ripewave]

I appreciate the encouragement- thanks- Jon

[@RueFondary]

Thank you John, This is a very interesting video which goes far beyond what I've seen to date, and which is very relevant for people who own similar hardware or are considering various AVRs. I do own a Marantz Cinema 40 with full DLBC (w/ 2 subs) and, while I haven't done any REW measurements, my experience is similar to yours, in that DLBC controls bass extremely well and gives great results. Some people report that it kills bass, but I suspect this is because they are used to room modes which increase bass levels at some frequencies, at the expense of clean/clear bass

[@ripewave]

For anyone that believes that a calibration kills their bass, I recommend that they measure the result to analyze what is going on. If there are frequencies in the lower end where they see big dips, then their calibration is not correcting for those. If the response curve looks more flat for the low frequencies, then they my need to simply make some tonal adjustments to boost the low end. The goal should be high quality bass, not just loud bass. -Jon

[@jameshalvorson5915]

John, great review of the 6800. I just received mine. Your Audyssey review resulted in Muffled Low-End. I experienced the same, but then I used the MultEQ app and Easily moved the curve low end up and I’m Super Impressed. Now my Preset-1 is adjusted for movies and Preset-2 for music. I’ve had three Denons and the 6800 has finally allowed me to have the best of both worlds with the easy to switch Presets. Thnx Much.

[@ripewave]

Yes - MultEQ-X (or Dirac) is needed to unlock the potential of the Denon AVRs. -Jon

[@isak6626]

Thanks for covering the X6800H again! I have some comments on your method though. In other to evaluate the results and to compare Audyssey to Dirac, you would have to use identical microphone positions, levels and crossovers. You would also have to average the responses across positions in REW, as both Audyssey and Dirac aim to control the average response. Dirac also does phase correction, so you should also look at phase (and impulse) in REW. Furthermore, Dynamic EQ is only active when you are above our below reference level in your AVR (volume at -0 dB), and when you are, it will adjust the bass and the treble upwards to mimic the Fletcher-Munson curve adjustment. Dynamic EQ also (wrongfully) boosts the surround channels by 4-5 dB or so, but this can be rectified with manual adjustments. Moving forward, you should really check out Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile's channel and his videos on manual EQ with Audyssey. This one for example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqiyg4FjqbiDoM0si=3iELt_J2WMHkgR5S

[@ripewave]

I am receptive to your feedback, as I still have a lot to learn about room calibration. I agree that consistency is important. The design of the test I conducted was different from a pure comparison between Audyssey and Dirac. My goal was to compare these two different methods as instructed by Denon. While I did use the same Denon AVR-X6800H, same speakers, same speaker positions, same amplifiers, same speaker layout configuration, and same test equipment/process, the calibration process was as Denon directs. Denon says to use the included microphone for Audyssey and recommends the UMIK-1 for Dirac and states that the included microphone should not be used with Dirac. I let each calibration tool set the parameters (distances, levels, crossovers) based on what those tools determined without modification (at least initially - I did modify levels from Audyssey towards the end as they were so far off). I feel that most will relay on these tools and not tweak to perfection beyond some adjustment of target curves to suit preferences. When measuring the results of Audyssey and Dirac, I only used the main listening position; so averaging multiple positions was not necessary. That is where I sit and I wanted to know how well each did for that position only as a starting point. A good calibration has to at least get it right for the main position. If it does well there, then we can examine how well it did for other listening positions. The phase correction is something that gives Dirac an advantage. I need to better understand the results of the phase and impulse charts in REW. I did look at those, but felt I needed to know more before reporting on those. I was listening below reference levels (0db), so it was expected that Dynamic EQ would modify the tones. Thanks for that addition that the Fletcher-Munson curve is used by this loudness feature. Also thanks for revealing that surround channels are boosted significantly louder. I did not know that, but helps to explain why I felt that the Dynamic EQ was going to far in most cases. I will check out Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile. In fact, KZbin suggested one of their REW videos to me today and I marked for a latter viewing. I appreciate that thoughtful response. -Jon

[@isak6626]

@@ripewave Of course, we're all learning 😊 I see your logic. The issue however is that there are other settings than the actual EQ that affects the results, such as Dynamic EQ. Regarding mic positions, you should still vector average the individual mic position responses in REW if you want to get a more truthful picture of how Audyssey and Dirac performs. You never really hear the single mic position response since you have two ears and since you move your head an inch or so back and forth when listening. Furthermore, you could also apply some smoothing, such as psychoacoustic smoothing, as we don't really hear all the variations in the response as they are presented by default. Excellent. OCA's videos are very in-depth, but also very educational.

[@ripewave]

I am listening to one of his videos now - very good. Thanks for that tip. I used variable smoothing for all measurements. I need to learn about the averaging you mentioned. -Jon

[@darknessnightfall]

Thanks!

[@ripewave]

Thank you back. That donation really helps. -Jon

[@KiterSuperfly]

Thanks for the detailed information. Very fascinating.

[@ripewave]

Hoping to add more of this type of measured analysis as we go. -Jon

[@BugleBoogie]

Jon, Perfect! I really appreciate your objective approach for the evaluation. My subjective view is the same as yours. There is a remarkable difference between Audyssey and Dirac Live. Dirac Live wins hands down. I have not done any testing with REW but may consider spending the time to do it. I’m not sure why one needs to make any adjustments to the Dirac Live results. It seems like most folks like to tweak the settings. I have not. I used the Audessey MultEQ app to set up my AVR-6700H and did not run it for the 6800H. Instead, I used the settings from my 6700H and applied them to the 6800H. I can’t imagine why that approach wouldn’t be OK. I have posted this response to both of your KZbin channels.

[@ripewave]

So great to compare notes on these calibration tools. Seems we are aligned on our findings. The great thing about REW is that is available at no cost with donations welcomed. I used with an external DAC, but I am learning that it can also make use of the HDMI output of your computer to send multi-channel signals to your AVR HDMI input. I will have to try. Copying configurations from one AVR to a next generation AVR is a good trick. I have been leaving the Dirac defaults mostly as you say, aside from a gentle boost on the low end. There is something I got a comment on regarding a higher frequency I will explore, but to my ears it isn’t bad. Thanks for posting both places, it should help generate more interest on the new channel. Jon

[@BugleBoogie]

@@ripewaveI’m untested in knowing more about your REW measurements. First, where did you place the microphone. I’ll come up with more questions as I attempt to take these measurements.

[@ripewave]

I placed the microphone at my main listening position. If you have more questions, let me know.

[@BugleBoogie]

@@ripewave great. Thanks.

[@HiFinest343]

Nice job! Any plans to compare against MultEQ X? I’ve been having great results with MultEQ X, but would be awesome to see if there is a step up to Dirac. Thanks!

[@ripewave]

Yes - I have MultEQ-X enabled for my Cinema 50 and can use that unit for the comparison to Dirac with all the options enabled for both types of correction. -Jon

[@marcgigliotti9637]

Hi Jon. Thank you for producing these videos. I don’t want you to think I’m criticizing in any way, but I have both Dirac Live with Bass Control and Audyssey MultEQ-X with Audyssey’s CALIBRATED mic on my Denon. I will tell you that they are far more similar than different. I’ve measured with REW using waterfall plots, and they are quite comparable. In the end, I feel Audyssey gives a better result. However, as you’ve concluded, bare-bones Audyssey or Audyssey using the mobile editor app is not comparable to Dirac. What Audyssey is doing with their PC application is far better than anything they’ve done before, provided you use their calibrated mic. It gives far more control over the various parameters than anything else I’ve ever tried. I’m excited to see what your thoughts and measurements are for when you do that comparison. Thanks again!

[@ripewave]

I will cover MultEQ-X next. You are right, that tool is far more capable then what Denon includes. -Jon

[@Erik-p8h2f]

My understanding of how Dynamic EQ works is that it's much like the 'Loudness' button on old school receivers... it's supposed to compensate for how our ears respond at low volume levels. When the volume control is low it adds quite a bit of bass and some treble... the more you turn it up, the less of an effect you get. I would expect that on a modern Denon when you set the volume at reference 0dB, the Dynamic EQ is effectively disengaged. I'd love to see some response graphs with Dynamic EQ on/off at various volume levels

[@ripewave]

Great suggestion. Your interpretation of the Dynamic EQ function aligns with my understanding. I think I will measure on vs. off at different volumes. - Jon

[@Tanquen]

Are you seeing any issues with eARC audio dropouts or the video out just stopping until a power cycle? I already tried a good quality HDMI 2.1 cable at half the length and no change. Mine has been worse since the factory reset. It was only doing it when changing inputs like three times but a few times (like every evening) now just watching a show on the Apple TV and the video will just cut out. I have to power the AVR off and then it is good for a time. The eARC audio dropout is easy to check but with the dead video out put, it could be days with no issue. They want to point to the cables and then the TV but come on, I can re-connect the X6500H and both issues that I never had before are gone. Seems like their new all HDMI 2.1 board has issues but I thought it was the same board used in some of the other Denon AVRs from the last year. They are now wanting me to send it in for service. :( Adding to the frustration, I've got the Dirac license that needs to be returned by February 11th. I still can't get them to tell me if I can use it before getting a refund or not. I got the license, mic and the stand and do not want to be stuck with them.

[@ripewave]

I have yet to explore the video side of these receivers. Certainly a hole in my coverage. I really need a newer TV, but have been holding off and focusing on the audio side first. You should be able to rule out the cables by running the Denon cable test utility. If they are willing to service the HDMI 2.1 board at no charge, I would take advantage of the offer. Dirac will transfer the license if you are receiving a factory replacement. I agree all the licensing restrictions are hard to manage. -Jon

[@raulgutierrez1501]

Same problem here. Was it fixed and what was the reason they gave you?

[@tabajaragarcia8027]

Valeu!

[@ripewave]

Much appreciated. Thanks for that donation and for tuning in. -Jon

[@1514134]

Hi Jon! Thanks for providing us with such detailed videos! Is the just released Cinema 30 already in the pipeline to get reviewed, against the x6800?

[@ripewave]

I am interested in reviewing the Cinema 30 and might look to replace my Cinema 50 with it. Then timing of the release will determine if I can directly compare against the Denon X6800 as I only have that one for a maximum of 60 days. -Jon

[@larsjuuleriksen2468]

It would be nice if you could compare Dirac Live calibration with ARC Genesis calibration

[@ripewave]

I reviewed the Anthem AVM70 8K early last year. The experience I had was terrible, but so many have had positive results. Actually, I found the end results to be very good, but the calibration process was uncontrollably loud and damaged my speakers. Anthem support was very poor, only via email and will no useful guidance. They said they had raised to engineering and never reported back. I have had several write to me on this channel stating they had the same issue, but some report that the calibrated with no issue. My guess is that it depends on the external amplifier and that high powered amps are more likely to have this issue. If comparing a ARC calibrated Anthem AVM70 8K to the Dirac calibrated Emotiva RMC-1 processor, I found the RMC-1 to sound a little better, but only slightly. Both are top tier in sound quality. The Dirac calibration experience for me was the clear winner. I won't touch ARC again unless Anthem can provide me with assurance that they have address their issue. Jon

[@larsjuuleriksen2468]

@@ripewave yeah I saw your review, and actually did check the firmware change log on latest firmware revision. Issue you had with volume seemed to be solved.

[@larsjuuleriksen2468]

@@ripewave fixed in 1.111.182 "Host FW 73: Fixed an issue where speaker level calibration offset underflows could lead to max volume being used for the speaker"

[@ripewave]

So glad to hear that issue was addressed. That was a big one. -Jon

[@ripewave]

Not sure what an “underflow” is, but the main thing it was fixed. Finally! It would have been nice if their support was as good about letting me know as you. -Jon

[@joeydirt420]

My initial thoughts after hearing audy ca dirac with bass control is dirac is much more clearer and has a decent amount more clean bass

[@ripewave]

Thanks for sharing. I felt that Dirac produced better results with less effort and knowledge of the tool. -Jon

[@gurjantm]

Thanks for putting in all that hard work for my viewing pleasure. I have five Klipsch Reference 3 speakers circa 2023 for my ground layer and getting 6 Klipsch RP600 for second and third Auror3d layout. Deciding if X6800h will be too bright for 100% movie watching vs Cinema 30 which will have that Marantz distortion for less fatigue. I don't mind paying more for Marantz if it will improve my movie experience.

[@FURognar]

Something else which might be clearing up the Dirac over the Audyssey might be the Impulse Response control that Dirac has. Its supposed to be exceptional at that which should have an effect on the RT60 and Impulse Response measurements. If it improved the RT60 more than Audyssey did, that could account for increased clarity.

[@ripewave]

I agree. That approach with the impulse response certainly makes a difference with decay. I will explore further. -Jon

[@StarcraftGT500]

Where do you get this Harman curve file???

[@ripewave]

From the link which was referred to on the AVS Forum: mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2/

[@joeydirt420]

What speakers were you using for your sweeps? Im having trouble figuring out how to do sub and left in rew. Its either left or lfe?

[@ripewave]

All my speakers are Polk LSI or LSIm series. The subwoofers are both Rythmik F18s. I having used REW a lot recently and not sure what you are referencing. I wish I could offer more support -Jon

[@michaelratner8890]

Very nice, thanks! Your video reinforced my intuition that DLBC is doing a much better job than any alternative. What speakers do you have? That upward slope in the 3K - 7K range must sound very bright in the room.

[@ripewave]

I am using Polk speakers - Lsi15, Lsic (Front), Lsi/fx (Side), Lsim703 (Rear), 900-LS (Ceiling). Subwoofers are Rythmik F18. Thanks for raising the issue between 3k-7k. This is something I will take a look at. My focus was on the lower end, but do feel that range may need to be tamed a bit; but only a little. It is not harsh to me. Jon

[@rolandrohde]

What I would love to see is the Subwoofer measurements on each of these. So just the LFE Channel in Dirac with and without BM and BC and in Audyssey. Because that Bass Managed Plot looks like the Subs weren't EQ'ed at all and that is why the response looked so bad in the low frequency.

[@chaosmtb]

Great vid! Gotta give thoughts on how it stacks against other avrs esp Marantz. You did a very on the surface dry report on the personal findings, superb info on graphs! But something tells me if you have a c40 and a 6800 with the same graph there may still be sonic differences. My 4800 sorta lifted the tone of everything in the name of clarity but it didn’t sound as natural to me. Deep voices are an octave higher to my ears. I’m thinking I need to try a c40 to see if it will bring less harshness at higher volumes and more natural sound everyone is taking about.

[@kellyrickards7132]

I can't wait to see see how this more expensive Denon X6800H compares to the cheaper Yamaha Avantage A8A and especially my front runner, the Sony AZ7000ES. I feel that for $3500 before spending additional $$$ for Dirac, this AVR should be a benchmark performer on the level of the Sony and Yamaha, if not better. This is just my opinion. PS. I'm also curious how it close it is to the X4800H because you can save a ton of money yet get most of the performance if you go with an Avantage A6A or AZ5000ES vs each of their flagship brethren.

[@ripewave]

It’s coming. I have yet to perform my critical listening between my reference units and the X6800h so I am also anxious to know for the same reasons. I am hoping this new model takes Denon into the high her tier. -Jon

[@thelonewolf666]

thanks for the review mate--- we see all these graphs etc but your ears are a better judge--- i deleted my yamahas ypao room correction settings as it sounded like crap and did it manually---the graphs probably looked good-- all room correction does is adjust db levels and distance from a set point--- its easy to do manually, im looking at this amp or a integra, they have dirac, but i think id rather set it manually, so dirac may be something that im paying for that i wont use, cheers again, for your efforts 😀

[@ripewave]

I agree that our ears are the ultimate judge. That is why I judge first, then measure. What I am trying to learn from the REW measurements is the “why” I feel the way I do about a calibration or setting. I feel Dirac is a little different then a lot of calibration systems. It is performing phase correction which would be very difficult to pull of manually. -Jon

[@mikeortiz2139]

Honestly I dont think its a fair fight to have Autocal Audyssey vs Fully Loaded Dirac Live. HD Movie Source has had fantastic results using MultEQ X. Im not saying its necessary here, but just a note i wanted to make.

[@ripewave]

My goal is to provide these results to help owners decide whether or not to purchase Dirac or simply use Audyssey as provided out-of-the-box. -Jon

[@darknessnightfall]

ISn't it weird that you buy an expensive AVR and you need to buy a smaller one ,money wise, in software to get great sound

[@ripewave]

It is weird. The full Dirac package, even at bundled prices is the cost of an entry level AVR. -Jon

[@johnsmith-i5j7i]

Too expensive

[@boterhammetpindakaashagelslag]

It'll be pretty cheap in about 6 months

[@johnsmith-i5j7i]

@@boterhammetpindakaashagelslag 8500 is available for decent price.

[@ripewave]

I am assuming "too expensive" refers to the add-on cost of Dirac - or are you also saying the X6800 is too expensive? -Jon

[@ripewave]

The cost of the X6800? or the Dirac options? Assuming you mean the cost of the base X6800. -Jon

[@johnsmith-i5j7i]

@@ripewave both . Avr prices are going through the roof