Robert Gagnon - Homosexuality and the Bible: Two Views

Robert A. J. Gagnon is an associate professor of New Testament at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and an elder in the Presbyterian Church.

[@davidkennedy6251]

Homosexuality and the Bible: Two Views. Where are the two views here? I can hear only one view being expressed. This is an interview and not a debate and we hear only the views of Dr. Gagnon.

[@ronsmith2241]

If Robert Gannon refers to the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) to try to justify translating arsenokoitai as homosexuals, I ask him to explain how he obeys Leviticus 19:37 "Keep ALL my decrees and ALL my laws and follow them.." Also Leviticus 20:22 "Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them." You CANNOT just quote Lev 18:22 and 20:13 to condemn homosexuality without also explaining how you obey every single OT law...all 613 of them. You cannot just take scripture out of context at will to try to justify your anti-gay agenda.

[@walterwhite7554]

I guess because Jesus said marriage was sacred and for a lifetime and divorce was unacceptable, the Christians will also have to stop their cherry picking and obey all the rules, and stop their current practice of getting as many divorces as unbelievers to stop making Jesus cry. Amen

[@davidkennedy6251]

+Walter White Walter that is a good point. I find that most Christians pick and choose with the Bible to suit themselves. They have softened the Bible teaching on divorce as they know divorced people or divorce might happen to them. Homosexual feelings are foreign to them and so they take the Bible very literally on this matter.

[@walterwhite7554]

David Kennedy We must have some compassion for the poor Christian who after all are clearly commanded in Matthew 5:48 that they have to be perfect, and then when they inevitably fail at that, they are left to live a life of fear and shame and insecurity. Over demanding Fathers can ruin lives. peace

[@mikearmentrout7416]

It's true that divorce rates are sadly too high within the church but we must remember that regenerate believers are not claiming that God affirms divorce or any sin they may find themselves in. Sin in all forms is against a Holy God and requires ongoing repentance. I'm not aware of any Christians who are divorced celebrating divorce as part of their identity and claiming God endorses their divorce even though there are biblical allowances for it when one spouse betrays the covenant. When the issue of homosexuality comes up, why is it "cherry picking" to have a biblical stance on it?

[@davidkennedy6251]

Regan hi I live in the UK too and I would encourage you in the work you do. I notice that all the staff in your church and its mission arm are married. Have singles got anything to offer in leadership in your opinion? David

[@peterholwill1170]

This discussion is based on the fact that the bible is the word of God which in many cases it is not, it is the word of man. The bible condones slavery, death if you commit adultery, Christans say lifet changed, so why has it not changed with a view to homosexuality. iLstening to this Professor am so glad I am not a Christian. I have tried to feel sexually attracted to females, I can't. I spent 22 years with a man I loved, who loved me, I nursed him through his cancer until he died, if a so called God of level think's this was wrong, again so pleased not to believe in him.

[@ifihadahammer7856]

Mr. Gagnon makes a lot of assumptions that are not backed up by facts, truth, reality or logic. His first one is that if God created the first two people of an opposite gender, that must mean that God ONLY wants it to be that way for all time. So, he is assuming that he knows God's entire plan. In reality, God clearly loves diversity within all of His creation. His other assumption is that when Jesus quoted from Genesis, He was doing so to reinforce the gender aspect, when that is not true at all. Jesus simply did so while defending His stance on divorce, and the gender aspects were not what He was emphasizing. So, Mr. Gagnon is putting words into Jesus' mouth. He makes more, but he keeps proving that he does not care about all of the context the Scriptures were written in, or that he simply refuses to see it any other way than the way he wants to see it and or how he was brainwashed into seeing it. He has clearly never even questioned if he may be wrong, he just arrogantly believes he is right any the other are wrong. He also will justly and rightfully fade into irrelevance and I thank God for that.

[@ifihadahammer7856]

+cece jones You clearly don't know the difference between being relevant and fading into irrelevance. This is also not "on one of his videos"! If it were, he would have anyone who opposes his views blocked and or removed like he does with all of his uploads. Because he did that so much, he no longer allows any comments.

[@ifihadahammer7856]

+cece jones I stated... He also will justly and rightfully fade into irrelevance and I thank God for that. Just because he is one of the more popular right-wing religious conservatives at this time does not mean he will always be so. His opinions, assumptions, and unfounded claimes are nothing origional, he just presents them a bit more articulately. I do not know if he has his own KZbin channel, but many of his videos that have been uploaded have the comment section disabled. Why they are is debatable, but in my opinion it shows cowardice. Other people like James White do the same thing. Michael Brown is even worse, if anyone posts comments on his videos that prove him wrong, they are removed, and that person is blocked. He claimes it is because of other reasons, but I and many other know better. That fact is that both sides in this argument have been posted many times over, and more and more are favoring the side that is stating that homosexual sex is no more sinful than heterosexual sex. People like Mr. Gagnon have had their views refuted by many others from many angles. There most likely will always be some who will favor his side, but they are most definitely becoming fewer and fewer every day, and that is how him and his ilk are becoming more and more irrelevant. I am fluent in Greek and Hebrew, I have read every available English translation on the Scriptures. I have spent many years researching the Scriptural and cultural context the Scriptures were written in, I am also a doctor, but of internal medicine. I have spent a very long time learning Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew. I could easily become a theologian, but I don't see the point anymore, they are a dime a dozen these days.

[@ifihadahammer7856]

+cece jones You have yet again, provided nothing more than your unfounded opinions. Your opinions are not backed up by the Scriptures, or truth, or facts, or logic, or reality. What is marrage to God? And spare me with the gender aspects, that is just another unfounded opinion. I once fully believed that any and all homosexuality was as sin, but that changed the moment I read the bible, and that continued the more I educated myself on the Scriptures. What I see now is the same distortions and lies that have been told for a very long time being repeated over and over by people like Mr. Gagnon. You can also stop acting as if something like this is a new thing, because people have been misusing the Scriptures in an attempt to justify their mental issues with something else for as long as they have existed. You and your ilk are the ones who eisegetical interpret the Scriptures, some of you have even managed to get parts of them mistranslated around the 1950s and after in your anti-homosexuality agenda. And, I had the guidance from the Holy Spirit throughout my entire evolution and education regarding this, so you can rest assured that I have not left Him out. The weak and tired arguments are all on your side in this, you just are incapable of seeing that. So, until one of you provide proof that any and all homossexual sex for any reason is listed to be a sin in the Scriptures, you will be rightfully and justly ignored. If you come back with parts that so clearly had to do with Pagan idolatrous rituals, prostitution, sex with angels, treating strangers sadisticly or pederasty, you will only be providing more proof of how you love distorting the Scriptures. You can also save you beloved 1 Corinthians 6:9, that one is more proof of how far some of you are willing to go in your anti-homosexuality agenda. I have dibated far more Scripturally knowledgeable people than you so clearly are, so I don't expect much other than the usual BS. Also, try spacing out your wall of words in the future, it will make you appear a bit more intelligent, and it is a common courtesy.

[@ifihadahammer7856]

+cece jones Just as you claim, I expected you to respond in the same way you have. You are the one who has brought nothing to the table, you have never even considered that what you have been brainwashed into and or want to believe has always been based on lies and distortions. You don't want to debate it, because you know that you can't prove me wrong. Even if you were capable of seeing that you are wrong, you will not admit it. People like you make the statement of having the Holy Spirit on your side in this, but I know for a fact that people like you have never even asked for the Holy Spirit's guidance in this, because you just arrogantly feel that you are right, and nothing else matters. If it were still taught that the Sun goes around the Earth, would you believe that also? You're a Fundamentalist aren't you? Do you believe that God destroyed "Sodom and Gomorrah" because of homosexuality? There is a lot of proof that there have been many mistranslations from the manuscripts we have. Even the beloved King James Version has had many corrections made to mistranslations in it. We have been trying to take copies of the origional manuscripts and properly translate them. There are many issues involved in doing this, like language barriers, cultural aspects, eisegetical influence, ETC. The Torah has been more problematic regarding this because of how much older it is. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has provided us a bit more of an understanding of Koine Greek than we had before. I have mentioned 1 Corinthians 6:9. Can you tell me how it is that a Greek word that the Apostle Paul may have created, and another common one before it has been translated to mean something they were never meant to mean around the 1950s and after? This mistranslation has taken place mostly in English versions of Scriptures. It varies from condemning men who have sex with men, to outright stating that anyone who is effeminate or homosexual will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Some English translations have stated that even if a homosexual has never had sex, or has repented from it and never done it again will NOT enter into Heaven. And, some have stated that just because someone is effeminate they will NOT enter into Heaven. In the time of King James, "effeminate" did not mean exactly the same thing it does today. The literal translation of that word from Hebrew into English is "soft". This has been transitioning as time goes on, some have changed it to practising homosexuals, and done away with the effeminate part. Others just use the word "sodomites" like it means anything other than an inhabitant of a place called "Sodom". This is also reflective of the changes to more modern translations from the KJV. There are parts in the KJV that translated words into "sodomites", in newer English translations it changes them to temple/shrine/cult prostitutes. If you want examples, I will provide them.

[@ifihadahammer7856]

+cece jones I never even indicated that I believe "that the entire Word of God must supposedly be "mistranslated", so you are yet again reading into things what you want, like you do with the Scriptures. This is something that is commonplace with people like you. And, thank you for coming back with nothing but more of your psychological projection, and unfounded opinions. You have provided more than enough proof that you have not one thing to add to this. FYI, there is no more "rampant promiscuity in the homosexual lifestyle", than there is in the heterosexual lifestyle. That is just another lie created by homophobes like you, out of desperation to try justifying your mental issues. Until your mental issues are cured, not one word you have to state on this is to be taken seriously. I have been praying that you get the help you so desperately need, and are shown the error of your ways, and repent from your constant sinning and perpetuation of lies and distortions. People like you are no better and no more correct than the Christians who tried claiming that interracial marrage was a sin and forbidden by God. People like you are increasingly, rightfully and justly being viewed in much the same way we view them, and that will continue.