Robert Sapolsky On Why Free Will Doesn't Exist

[@FreedomPact]

Does Free Will Exist? Let us know your opinion ⬇️

[@FootyForgot]

Nope!

[@tcuisix]

Maybe

[@Brynbraughton]

​@@FootyForgotYou literally couldn't be more incorrect.

[@whygodisscience]

@@Brynbraughton Correct, it's a great way to remove all personal responsibility from humanity, wonder what great laws the government will come up with based on this delusional science? lol

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

It's actually impossible for free will to exist except in the dictionary, or in our imagination. Sadly, believing in imaginary things is very common amongst humans with average or below average intelligence. Sorry, there's no nice way to say this.

[@mr1001nights]

"What made you into the kind of person that would respond that way?". Nice and succinct question to argue for determinism.

[@sjoerd1239]

The free will vs determinism argument is ancient. What is new is the enormous amount and increasing empirical/objective evidence supporting determinism, specifically the achievements of science. Believers in free will only have subjective intuition. Other definitions tend to be social constructs that are not a question of whether of free will exists. These social constructs are not how free will is practiced when making people accountable for their actions. Believers in free will evade the consequences of determinism by inappropriately applying reward and punishment. The philosophy behind a belief in free will is a desperate attempt to satisfy discomfort in considering that there is no free will. It avoids science and its basis in determinism.

[@iDontKnow-fr-fr]

"Holistic Free Will" proves that we have free will using neuroscience so this statement and those of Sapolsky are ignorant... You can find the entire document on PhilPapers

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

On the Sapolsky paradox : let me dumb down Sapolsky's response. If you believe free will exists, but upon considering all the evidence, realize that you were mistaken, you aren't exercising free will. You didn't choose to change your mind. Something caused you to change your mind. That's the meaning of determinism. To be caused by! Lets try a little experiment. If you believe that you have free will, just choose to believe that free will doesn't exist. Don't imagine how that would feel. Actually choose to believe that free will doesn't exist. Your see, a determinist knows it's impossible to change a belief by choice or by desire. There's no contradiction. Believing in free will leads to contradiction, because if you chose something, you should be able to choose the opposite at will. You can't.

[@MikeFuller-d4d]

Newtonian physics suggest that there is no freewill, whereas quantum mechanics can provide an explanation for there being freewill. However, brains have been known to choose to make actions before people actually made those actions.

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

@@MikeFuller-d4d quantum mechanics only suggests that randomness is possible. It says nothing about the possibility of free will. A random action doesn't constitute an act of will. Secondly, the brain doesn't make decisions. It realizes and acts according. Choice, even on a subc level, is impossible.

[@MikeFuller-d4d]

@@Furyan5theLoneWolf WOW!! It sounds like you really know your onions! I bow to your superior knowledge! Enjoy November! Cheers - Mike.

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

@MikeFuller-d4d lol thanks. Glad you liked it. You have a great November too Mike.

[@MikeFuller-d4d]

@@Furyan5theLoneWolf Thank You!

[@cht2162]

As a young child I experienced helplessness to such a degree that I created my own mythology. I envisioned myself as strong so I could compete with my godlike parents for an identity. Then I began to believe that the god I learned about at church was 'real,' just like my parents were real. I then could reject my disastrous parental home and believe in a mythological being who would shower me with all kinds of blessings. I'm a privileged white, college-educated American and have enjoyed the benefits of my race, class and education. Like most people (I presume) I created my own mythology, establishing how special I am, as if I had free will. Which I don't. It has taken me 85 years to understand that destiny established my heredity and experience, that the world also functions by inexorable law and not by some form of gods like my parents. I am so relieved that there is no free will.

[@Metanitra]

If you truly want to show me that I have no free will, start by scientifically explaining all the psychological aspects of human behavior through the brain, explain to me how consciousness works, and clarify the nature of feelings (not emotions).

[@Mind_Over-Matter]

This is a topic I see a lot of people debating and they ask the completely wrong simple minded questions. Robert is on the right line of thinking I believe and a large part of me believes that through using logical reasoning that free will does not exist. But also another thing to consider is what people exactly are referring to when they use the term free will. Because if they are referring to the ability to make YOUR own decisions absent of factors you can't control like emotions or things that have happened to shape you that you couldn't control then the question becomes what exactly "YOU" are. If you take away the emotions that shape your decisions that you have no control over what is left. Are your emotions you.or happening to you? It's a multi layered question that can keep being broken down further and further until you reach the unanswerable philosophical questions. It's brilliant fun to ponder although a massive waste of time since it's an unanswerable. All that energy going into trying to trying to unravel the unravelable. it's enough to drive the human mind insane.

[@kittuojha]

the idea is that there's nothing, absolutely nothing that you can control. By free will people mean that there are at least some things that we can control. Sapolsky says that we are the product of randomness, past and surroundings none of which is controllable.

[@nevilleattkins586]

In our fallen world, determinism reigns true - sin binds all choices save one: accepting grace. or in economics Sin creates a false Pareto frontier, while grace reveals the true production possibilities frontier. or more generally * Sin creates artificial scarcity mindset * Determinism manifests as optimization under perceived constraints * Grace reveals true abundance by transforming perception * Innovation emerges from scarcity but is perfected by grace Or if you prefer If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36)

[@RafaelPolidoroBio]

It's weird that he doesn't like to address consciousness at all, although it exists. So, it should be able to be broken down just like the ants and other emerging complexities as he likes to say. Values and attributions outside of us pop up in our mind, as he mentioned, due to our internal desires (phenotypical biology) and external consideration (culture and context). Where we feel free? In choosing how to weight those conflicts. Sapolsky believes you have no choice at all, at a physics level, to how you'll measure if you eat a cookie and leave your child starving, or you give the cookie to the child. Those thought processes are so quick that we really get the sense we could pick one or another. In philosophy, this is as old as philosophy itself. Named differently by different people, the fight between the real "I" biology, and the external "I" who speaks, is a real one. We measure and weight whether to dress something based on our biology (hormones, nutrition, generic), wardrobe, and society (is it morally adequate? Is it fashion in 2024?). Sapolsky will argue that because you couldn't pick the 2024 fashion, you have no free will. Jean Paul Sartre would argue you're free because you didn't have a choice. When you have to choose you lose freedom and add culture and society to your hall of decision making, trapped by culture. This is all a provocative reflection that if Sartre is right, then Sapolsky never once answered how we have free will. The freedom to not choose has to be trained and be active. Suppressed by sheer consciousness. Moreover, a second provocation would be the future planning and social control of behavior we consider undesirable. Here's an example, the speaking "I" thoughts disagrees with the biological I that feel desires towards a coworker. It's wrong in many ways. My body screams at me for acting on it. But I'm married and I tell myself tons of stories about it. Well, I can't help, internal "I" still push my physiology to the edge. So, when I'm not in the arousal moment, I use my higher control to send an email to my boss, asking to move desk. That reduces my problem and controls it. Making it way less frequent and hence less strong and less likely to result in undesirable (for my speaking "I") consequences. This way, knowledge of my inability to control my desire shifted how I dealt with it, being considered a form of free will within problem solving. For a social species like us, this is selective. There's a somewhat convincing advantage to add this second voice to our inner one, that throws external information (still from the brain) inwards to the most instinctual "I" saying - this is wrong, I am married, she is married, I'll be fired, not everything is sex, it's not worth. While my body throws back a number of hormones that do influences my thinking too. Knowing that and having read Kanehman and Sapolsky, I wait until I'm out of it to make a decision that'll benefit me, or maybe not, if I were to have an extra descendent 🤣. Cheers!

[@awFOQ]

Is it our free will to speak English? We all didnt ask to be born... so how does free will exist in that sense? The concept of free will seems to crumble when you begin to see the experiences we have, shaping our behaviours and therefore 'choices'. Saying that... life doesn't become less valuable in that view... it's the opposite... It means we can explore more and almost unlock new possibilities/ choices... but yeh... im just ramblin...

[@FreedomPact]

Excellent comment! Very well put! Thank you 🙏

[@whygodisscience]

You are only a slave to your past experiences when you give up you individuality, exactly what this destructive belief teaches you to do. If you retain you autonomy you can break free of the traumas that shaping you. If you are a mere slave to your past experiences why do people with very similar experiences have entirely different lives? When you investigate this question you will realize that individuality is at the heart of all success and happiness. Don't listen to this awful lie!

[@MrGunningpeter]

Anyone who declared to me that they thought everyone cant choose would never be left alone with anyone I love and I would never do business with them on account of the fact that they believe they are not responsible for their actions or thoughts.

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

Lol, a lack of free will doesn't imply a lack of responsibility. Being held accountable is one of the factors which determine our actions. It's actually people who believe free will exists, that are a danger to you and your loved ones, because their actions have no connection to right or wrong.

[@MrGunningpeter]

@@Furyan5theLoneWolf correct me if I am not getting what you mean by free will, Do you mean that people have the ability to choose other than they chose? In my understanding if one cant do anything other than that which is determined by their life / enviroment then they cant be held responsible .

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

@MrGunningpeter you're wrong. That's just an argument put forward by determinism deniers in favor of free will. They claim free will is necessary for people to be held responsible. They also claim that determinists only claim free will doesn't exist, to excuse their behavior. If a person is a murderer or rapist, not by choice, then they are a danger to society and need to be either rehabilitate, if possible, or, removed from society all together. More so if they can't act otherwise. What you're probably thinking about is punishment or vengeance. Punishing someone for doing something they had control over, is wrong, but, punishing someone to prevent them from doing it again, is the definition of determinism. Not only are you trying to alter their behavior but you're also setting an example for others who might be tempted to act the same. A slight shift in thinking is all that's required.

[@Furyan5theLoneWolf]

@@MrGunningpeter says who? Punishing someone for something they have no choice in, is wrong, but, punishment being used as a behavior modification technique is perfectly natural. It also acts as a deterrent to others who might be tempted to follow the same route. Same actions, but, with a slight change in thinking. Obviously, individuals who are unable to change their ways, need to be kept separated from society in general, again, not as punishment for what they did, but rather, to prevent them from doing it again. That's the determinist approach to the justice system.

[@MrGunningpeter]

@@Furyan5theLoneWolf I ask a question and give my understanding then you reply with says who? I dont want to discuss anything with you. Go argue with someone else.

[@dai19721]

I really want to see this. I really want to know what he says.....But my free will is stopping me....Just to prove a point.

[@FreedomPact]

I’m sure Dr Sapolsky would ask you how you became the kind of person who wants to prove that point? 😅 Thanks for clicking on the video anyway! We appreciate you stopping by (even briefly)

[@dai19721]

@@FreedomPact because I thought it through before hand. We all have free will. How do you think people quit fags ????? I really want to see the clip an see his thinking process...but I can stop myself with my free will. ...so sorry to say I won't be watching it.

[@dai19721]

@@FreedomPact Because I thought about it. We all have free will how do you think people quit fags. Because they force themselves not to do something they want to do...that's free will.its the same for when people give up on something there free will wasn't strong enough. free will becomes stronger with shadow work an it becomes weaker the more you dodge suffering. ....

[@baronvonbrunn8596]

Free will vs determinism is just nonsence. We can't make a decision without determining it, finding some reliable predictable "because", and the idea of our will being restrained by this fact or somehow free from it makes about as much sence as train being restrained by it's tracks and becoming free if these tracks are removed, allowing it to freely crash into a nearby cliff.

[@ImpatientTheist]

I grant the doc that most of what i do in life is determined. Although saying we don’t have free will is like believing that the stars determine my lot in life or anyone’s lot for that matter. You can tell me I have no free will and that I was born into a certain class in society but I will to do everything in my power to prove you wrong. This is what our age is missing out on. The lore of being able to possibly break the laws we are determined by. Bring back the myths that give purpose to a meaningless life.

[@captainbeefheart5815]

We don’t need myths. We need compatibilism.

[@ImpatientTheist]

@@captainbeefheart5815 Very well. I will use the free will that compatibilism offers to affect the determinism that compatibilism recognizes. If compatibilism is true we should be able to see a myth become reality. For while freely soaring to flights of fancy we are not so high off the grounding of facts that our stories become useless to the real world. Yet today we use our freedom to seek out facts. Why should we use our freedom to enslave ourselves? Dream and think freely.

[@captainbeefheart5815]

@@ImpatientTheist Compatibilism doesn’t affect determinism. It’s just a different level of abstraction for describing human behavior.

[@ImpatientTheist]

@@captainbeefheart5815 you make that most apparently obvious

[@joerogers4860]

​@@captainbeefheart5815played STFC with a guy named exactly your name. Is this the same beef?

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

Had Sam Harris and 30 other scientists explain to me 4 times why I don't have free will...Still don't buy it...And I still haven't learned much new about their theory since the first time...And about 30 other scientists tell me I have free will...And then 10 others say I have it and don't have it...Free will is just like good vs evil and 42: YOU ARE ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS.

[@LateButGreat]

Free Will is like the flying spaghetti. It exists and the proof is that I'm mentioning it now.

[@Cheesesteakfreak]

You act like stating that you don't get it makes you clever.

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

No. But I won't pretend like you are not because of your inane comment that has nothing to do with ANYHTHING. I don't think you even read what I wrote you jive turkey.

[@joshmason8431]

You may have an enlarged ego and an undersized IQ....not that you can help it

[@Metanitra]

The difference between a determinist, an athlete, and a Navy SEAL is the role of the mind. Determinists see themselves as slaves to their bodies, denying the power of the mind. Athletes and Navy SEALs, however, acknowledge the mind’s existence and use it to overcome their physical limits. If the body were truly in control of all situations, the existence of a Navy SEAL-someone who endures and surpasses extreme physical and mental challenges-would simply be impossible.

[@SkyGodKing]

God what nonsense. Sure libertarian free will doesn't exist. But everything meaningful is based on compatibilist free will which is completely different.

[@erfoognaz135]

we don't understand consciousness a and the world, it could be really everything. You can interpret the world as you like, science doesn't prove anything, it's a tool we use for understanding the mechanics of the phenomena not the answer to our existencial question. this until consciousness reamain unexpalined which I belive will be forever

[@samo917]

All these compatibilists do is take weird definitions of free will and then say that therefore free will is compatible with determinism. Might as well just argue that believing in free will means that bird can fly. And argue that therefore free will and determinism are compatible

[@erfoognaz135]

@@samo917 yes compatibilism doesn't make sense. If naturalism is right we don't have free will, if it isn't there are some chances we have it.

[@SkyGodKing]

@@samo917 The compatibilist definitions match up better to people's intuitions. The justice systems around the world use the compatibilist definitions, etc. Libertarian free will is just a silly redefinition of free will to something incoherent.

[@erfoognaz135]

No the libertarian free will is the real one, and it might be true. We don't know if naturalism is right, or idealism or dualism or whatever it is. The mystery of consciousness and life isn't solved and maybe will never be. It s a pseudo problem until we figure it out what consciousness is