Roman History 26 - Diocletian And The Tetrarchy 292-308 AD

This is from the podcast series The History Of Rome by Mike Duncan.
He currently does The Revolutions podcast.
www.revolutionspodcast.com/

[@kanyekubrick5391]

When you said he started wearing a diadem, I actually exclaimed “whaaaat?!” Out loud involuntarily

[@mememan8503]

Thanks Dovahatty

[@HVLLOWS1999]

CHADVS DOVATTIVS

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Third time through the series. Kinda feel all members of all legislatures should have to listen and test on this.

[@MogofWar]

"Screw you guy! I'm going home." --Diocletian 305

[@jacobsoltero2872]

YEEES.

[@sugarnads]

He Split I will show myself out

[@HVLLOWS1999]

Cabbage 🥬

[@scottpeugh7066]

Best Tetrarchy joke of all time

[@ac5128]

Though the quote is accurate people mistakenly attribute it to Diocletian in 305AD, however this was actually said by a drunken Galerius in 308 during his humiliating retreat from the Italian peninsula!

[@earlefrost5512]

LOVE this series: he's done his research maticulously, and presents the facts and his take on them in a very clear, MOST delightful manner. 11 thumbs up!!

[@ane7hud]

Awww, you answered that ones guys request. 10/10

[@HVLLOWS1999]

All shall fear Daddy Diocletian, his reforms & his cabbages⚔🥬

[@jamesbruno1519]

Cabbages

[@ashtonbarwick6696]

🥬

[@ancienttimes3773]

Hate to have the face of the bottom left statue.

[@claudius_drusus_]

Thats Maximian.

[@deathsheadknight2137]

@@claudius_drusus_ is he going to be okay?

[@Scout34111]

It’s amazing that we get 3 hours about the tetrarchy when in high school history books the whole 3rd century is summed up in 3 pages or less

[@justindearmond1]

this is the best series BY FAR on Roman history.

[@christophermason1340]

In my opinion this is the best/most in depth audio history of the Roman Empire

[@jacobsoltero2872]

Yay finally a full map of Rome again again!

[@TheJbarrett]

Best History of Rome ever!

[@jacobsoltero2872]

If only the Aurelian dynasty would have occurred what Rome's history would have looked like in the 4th century is so intresting to think about. Aurelian Principate of Rome AD 270 - AD 2,018

[@Itsatz0]

Wouldn't have made a difference, the people in the empire had changed. No longer willing to endure the constant warfare. Hence the popularity of the doomsday cult called christianity.

[@benjaminvidstein6029]

@@Itsatz0 f

[@claudius_drusus_]

Aurelian abolished principate. He introduced the Dominate.

[@histguy101]

The "Principate"/"Dominate" dichotomy is extremely overstated here. Many of Diocletians reforms were long lasting, but the idea that for 300 years, you could just walk up to the emperor and say "Good morning, citizen," and then forever after Diocletian, the emperor was some aloof Egyptian monarch that was unapproachable and severe...is absurd. His successor Constantine was every bit as approachable as Augustus (and its really Augustus and Trajan who Constantine modelled his reign on). He took petitions in public, and so on. He was available to any citizen who wrote letters to him, just as the Emperors of the first and second century. The ability/practice of the people to mock and scorn unpopular emperors in public to their face continued after Diocletian and even all through the Byzantine era. Diocletian's economic policies, apart from being the "beginnings of feudalism," were reversed in part by his successors, and totally reversed back to the earlier model by the time of Anastasius. "Feudalism" itself is often misunderstood, doesn't come from Rome, but the Frankish kingdoms/empires, and really not until the middle medieval period.

[@HVLLOWS1999]

@@claudius_drusus_ That was daddy Diocletian

[@SantomPh]

What a CEO this Diocletian is

[@geordiejones5618]

He overdid it but without his reforms Rome doesn't survive during the migrations. Would have been overrun on all sides. Auralien, Diocletion and Constantine ensured that some version of Rome would survive past Antiquity.

[@robertaudey7248]

Wow it impressed me how at the end he said if you are thinking of donating to me don't and instead donate to relief fund in Australia

[@peternewdick]

robert audey Australia ? Lol he clearly said New Zealand . For a history enthusiasts that’s pretty weak with multiple likes as well lol . Geography people

[@bcvetkov8534]

I honestly love Diocletian's zeal. He tried so hard to make the empire he ruled worthy of the gravitas it inherited from it's forefathers. I personally blame Galerius for the fall of the tetrarchy. Putting puppets in place of actual qualified successors is absolutely shameful. The only thing I personally blame Diocletian for is not allowing Maximian to pick his own Caesar. Why should an Augustus of the East pick a successor of the West??? I get the whole having more gravitas thing, but it's so counterproductive. I'm kind of sad it didn't work out for everyone.😞 Well regardless God bless everyone and I hope you all have a good day. 😄

[@alanpennie8013]

Diocletian was the man. He reformed the Empire and then retired to grow cabbages.

[@bcvetkov8534]

@@alanpennie8013 Cabbages are the most noblest of crops to grow

[@yuron8210]

thank you diocletian for destroying europe for 1000+ years with serfdom

[@danielharrison9100]

Q19

[@histguy101]

@@yuron8210 Serfdom really didn't begin until the 10th and 11th century, and wasn't some universal system adopted by all European nations/kingdoms. This is 600-700 years after the reign of Diocletian. Of course, the Roman system was better, right? Just have a bunch of large land owners, each with a large slave labor force to produce your agriculture. Yes, you should've gotten those plantations up and running, you middle agers!(sarcasm)

[@SelfStirringPot-com]

Good work Timaeus. Keep it up. Thank you.

[@AbbeyRoadkill1]

You'd think Diocletian would've realized the Tetrarchy was destined to multiply the number of people with claims to Imperial power... and that that would end in disaster. To me, Diocletian's reign is definitely a mixed bag. Long term, he probably did as much harm as he did good. Maybe he deserves to be ranked highly on an 'influence' scale. But on my personal favorite list of Emperors he's not top 10.

[@-timaeus-9781]

Diocletian was one of the emperors who persecuted the christians on a mass scale. So for that he is very low on my list. However the Tetrarchy did set the groundwork for the divided empire that Constantine adopted. And he of course ensured christianity a permanent place in the empire. Something very similar to what Akhenaten tried to in Egypt around 1400 BC, but it did not work out so well for him.

[@Adventurer32]

How do you ensure christianity a permanent place in your empire 1400 years before its invented? :/

[@charlesjurgus]

I'm sure the Tetrarchy, aside from internal Roman power-struggles, was in response to the challenges of administering such a vast expanse of territory with so little a sense of communal identity... that's why Christianity was so important a piece in moving forward.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@charlesjurgus An important point. I don't think that was the reason Constantine adopted Christianity but the new religion definitely gave Romanitas a more popular focus.

[@rfkwouldvebeenaok1008]

@@Adventurer32 ikr?

[@earlefrost5512]

That theme REALLY needs more cowbell......

[@HVLLOWS1999]

always room for more cowbell

[@honjon666]

The ancient sources do say Maximian played a mean cowbell

[@sargentspliff]

Yay, thank you you legend!!!!!!! :D

[@ilililililili563]

i like how seemlesley we went from using term "romans" to describe people of the empire to using it to describe citizens of the city.

[@aasifazimabadi786]

Somehow, Diocletian reminds me of Gorbachev. Mikhail Gorbachev reinvented the USSR to save the USSR, but failed. Diocletian reinvented Rome to save Rome and succeeded, but not exactly in the way he hoped.

[@JoseFernandez-qt8hm]

we're from the gubmint and we want to help you....

[@EinFelsbrocken]

Just imagine the absolute manic terror it must have been to administer the economy of an ancient empire, with thousands of different coins of different values of different times and ages circulating; without any economical theory; without any empire wide consensus on value of items and all the coins....oh my fuck...

[@feral7523]

If you were a son of a coal miner(many other trades too) in Britain up until turn of last century you weren't allowed to leave or get a different job,indeed you'd be arrested and returned to the mines if you fled even if you managed to get abroad, so Diocletians way only stopped 100 years ago!

[@mhick3333]

Suprising how all this is so familiar

[@w.herschelljamisonii9127]

They created a philosophy that required almost Pavlovian behavior. Gibbon said it was "mansions" that was the hook that the masses loved about Christianity. Obey the church, and the anointed ruler, and get a mansion in the after life, a new twist!

[@MogofWar]

So, the Edict on Prices affected what the hoghest price something went for while the emperror was in town.... So things going on sale might have come from this?

[@deathsheadknight2137]

i doubt it, at least not as the origin of the concept. I'm sure merchants had all kinds of tricks and deals throughout history.

[@oscarromarioflorezcamargo6342]

Was the Bizantine empire's burocracy deserving of the adjective Bizantine? I guess it depends on the time period, but it didn't survive that long by having a useless burocracy.

[@histguy101]

It was quite efficient and sophisticated, and through even the worst crisis always managed to collect taxes.

[@zoranpetricevic265]

bizantine is 18th century spin/term for original Roman Empire lasted 1000 years after goths/northern people destroyed Rome. Those people named post-vandalic empire *Holy Roman Empire (??) and real/remains of Roman Empire named Byzantine (city of Ravena was capital of northern egzarhate, Otrant was a part of northern African egzarhate - means that western border of (fake called) Bizant Empire was in todays Italy.

[@Moepowerplant]

So, basically turned the Roman Empire into an ancient Soviet Union?

[@alanpennie8013]

@LegoGuy87 Amazingly a serious historian, Michael Rostovsteff, seriously propounded nonsense of this sort. I think he was traumatized by the Russian Revolution.

[@Alamyst2011]

@blorghised Rome was far more cruel than the Soviets could have ever hoped o be.

[@owenmay4682]

Oh wow. Always figured the fall of the empire and especially the cultural degeneration towards and after its end was somehow a slow process with lots of more or less equally important factors. Having Diocletian layn down like this shines a whole new light on it. Hereditary and mandatory crafts and professions forced into mandatory guilds alone would be enough to send anything into a slow brutal decline towards medieval rock bottom. It will degenerate anything it is applied to while also making the decline durable by giving guilds profitable monopoly powers. Pretty much some of the worst tendencies of capitalism made law and enforced and enshrined by planned economy style politics. Without a decent understanding of economics it would have been nearly impossible to figure out the root cause of the decline for people back then and it would not fix itself because it would be individually profitable for many of those directly affected. With his half competence Diocletian really was a worse contributor to mediterranean civilization than 100 murderous hedonistic wastrels in a row could have been.

[@-timaeus-9781]

Yes, the mandatory occupations combined with the devaluation of the currency pretty much put the nails in the coffin.

[@tonyabraham7351]

Remember that Diocletian is instituting a federation of power by creating multiple districts that would be more responsive to the governed people. No surprise why U.S. founders read Roman history.

[@claudius_drusus_]

Diocletian ruled the East. The half that survived. And the degree of forced hereditary labor was increased after his reign. I think Theodosius made it more stringent, forcing even civil administration to be hereditary.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@-timaeus-9781 What's wrong with hereditary guilds?

[@deathsheadknight2137]

@@alanpennie8013 probably not too much. the main problem arises when they become mandatory

[@paulrosa6173]

Which face goes with which district? Is it accurate to name the busts from top left moving clockwise as Constantius, Galerius, Diocletian, Maximian? And since Diocletian ruled the prosperous and stable eastern empire, why did he abdicate and settle in Dalmatia? But this presentation beats trying to finish Gibbon. Not a map or diagram in the entire thing and Gibbon doesn't seem to mention dates except as chapter headings. I started reading that dreary book in high school as a hobby and 50 years later I still haven't finished it.

[@dennisdistant]

Diocletian got really sick. He was practically forced to abdicate. The area he retired to was around the place where he was born.

[@AndySemaj]

Top left is Constantius, top right is Galerius, bottom left is Maximianus, and Diocletianus is bottom right so yeah.

[@CrunchyNorbert]

how well would a policy of tax relief in exchange for handing in old coins have worked?

[@claudius_drusus_]

Older coins had higher purity levels.

[@yungsouichi2317]

@@claudius_drusus_ depends. A lot of coins were more base metal than silver or copper.

[@claudius_drusus_]

@@yungsouichi2317 when i mean higher. I mean older coins usually had more precious metal content than their newer counterparts.

[@freyasslain2203]

so why is diocletian so praised and domitian condemned?

[@adamcraig716]

because senate power vs no senate power

[@freyasslain2203]

@@adamcraig716 Well , Domitian cleaned house . Under his rule , nepotism and corruption was almost nonexistent .And he stopped the debasement of the coinage . Domitian also restored the silver value in the coinage , to 11% , which was the highest value since the reign of Augustus.

[@juhojohansson4797]

@@freyasslain2203 Yeah, Domitian was actually the best first century emperor if you just choose to ignore the senate lies. He ruled the empire successfully for 15 years and nobody really remembers him.

[@freyasslain2203]

@@juhojohansson4797 i totally agree .

[@freyasslain2203]

And i gave my reasons.

[@armyknightly100]

I WAS LAUGHING SO HARD TODAY 🤡

[@colonelcarrillo5131]

Can you find and upload the rest of the episodes?

[@-timaeus-9781]

I make these as I upload them. The source is listed in the description. I compile the shorter episodes together and cut out the intro ads for Audible.

[@hawaiianperson85]

I’ve always loved Galerius and I don’t know why. He’s like the villain who you hate but admire

[@rabbitss11]

Hey Diocletian what about introducing something called a 'Euro'? In hindsight, it might have saved him a lot of grief

[@brucer99]

what do you know about schlitz ..

[@aperson5135]

noice!

[@magoskillzmagoskillz3540]

reminder 24:00

[@firefox5926]

1:49:30 aye im from chch too things have gotten alot better tho :)

[@kanyekubrick5391]

1:13:00

[@michaelr3583]

42:00 census

[@oye4511]

👍👍👍

[@kuksianigjalle107]

Dioklentian is Ilyrian

[@violetrose415]

1:01:00

[@Paddythelaad]

Diocletian inherited an empire stabilized by Aurelion and recently expanding under Carus. Diocletian tried to prevent future civil war but caused it. Tried to put down Christianity but helped it. Tried to fix inflation but made it worse. Ended hope of social mobility by forcing citizens to work at what their father had done. He had the best army but didn't expand (Constantius took back Britian but was rewarded with his opponant being handed power). I find it comical how badly he did with so much power. From there one could bring in Utopia.

[@violetrose415]

1:49:20

[@Northern5tar]

They all have such an intelligent visage.

[@fiddleriddlediddlediddle]

WHY DOES EVERY CULTURE I LIKE KEEP ADOPTING CASTE SYSTEMS!?

[@Scout34111]

Maximian should have let Severus live

[@rationsofladyfingers]

Contrary to many comments in the succeeding videos on Constantine, I think Mike Duncan, while not necessarily pro-Christian, has been overall fair and neutral to Christianity throughout the series thus far. However, he does let his secular perspective (if not bias) slip here around the 1:00:00 mark in his misrepresentation of Christian beliefs. First off, he fails to mention that Christians believe in Christ's resurrection after His crucifixion - which is no small omission since the Resurrection is kinda the whole crux of Christianity. Then, he doubles down on his ignorance when he says that the Christians were waiting for Christ to come back from the "dead" in His impending second coming. No, Christians believe Christ already did that in the Resurrection and He's not dead but in fact alive in both body and soul in Heaven. I get he's not coming from a Christian perspective and he's only giving a general overview of early Christianity but he could at least be accurate when describing what Christians purport to believe.

[@Moribus_Artibus]

Shit just got real ...

[@HVLLOWS1999]

shit just got cabbage

[@davidking6242]

38:50

[@violetrose415]

21:00

[@jacobsoltero2872]

Nay fuc Diocletianus!

[@HVLLOWS1999]

Shit tf up

[@violetrose415]

29:00

[@camorinbatchelder6514]

Right, because more regulation will help with inflation.

[@MarsRacingNetwork]

Galerius was one of my favorites-personally reconnoitered a Sasanian camp and had bears as pets

[@AlessioAndres]

what's wrong with raising cabbages?! 😡 they're delicious! what else am i gonna temper my peppered roman stews with?!

[@rosiehawtrey]

Jesus - 2000 years later he owned a Dodge 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[@emadbagheri]

Cabbages are grown brother, not raised lol cheers

[@deathsheadknight2137]

Babbages?

[@emadbagheri]

@@deathsheadknight2137 I think those are conceived! lol

[@Paddythelaad]

I honestly think Diocletian was one of the worst emperors and I blame him on the collapse of Europe into the dark ages and serfdom, he doesn't even even to have an obvious excuse like Caligula (experienced people killing off his family at a very young age) or Commodus (his sister tried to have him kill and had his lover killed at the start of his reign, after his father died). The only decisions that might have been more destructive to the empire was Augustus declaring to stop expansion of the empire and Hadrian ensuring that after Trajan. Rome could have easily conquered Eurasia. Augustus disbanded about half the legions after his civil war shows that.

[@deathsheadknight2137]

1:05:25 oy vey

[@daveywynter1607]

I blame the cabbages been the leader or growing cabbages the cabbages won lol

[@andreaurelius45]

Did fine until you spewed a poorly researched history of Christianity. Some corrections are needed: 1. Christianity was mainstream by the time of the fall of the 2nd Temple. This is easily seen in Josephus history. Some 20k men of fighting age left Jerusalem, taking thier families with them. These were the Christians. And they were following a prophecy given by Jesus. 2. The "split" between Christianity and what was to become much later, Rabbinic Judaism , happened in 92 A.D. when the rabbinic synagogues began cursing Jesus in opening worship. 3. Priests, Deacons and Bishops were not an innovation. These offices were in existence already. And the Liturgical Pattern of Worship was inaugurated under Moses. So, nothing new there- except it was no longer restricted to a single temple, and the synagogue format was retained. Christianity IS NOT a text only religion. That is Islam That is Rabbinic Judaism That is modern Protestantism. 4. You make the Church out as if it had to adjust because Jesus did not come back. That is some 19th century German theological crap. The Orthodox church, and these are the originals, did not even include The Revalation of Jesus Christ by St John in the lectionary. They had the book and obviously preserved it. The book records 2 endings. 1st one is Jerusalem and its Temple, because of the Temple mount leadership rejected Jesus. So Jesus stripped authority out of the 2nd Temple. 2nd one is the final judgment at the end of the world. ....and that whole 4 horsemen thing- well they have BEEN riding since the birth of Jesus. So nothing new there. 5. Christianity shaped the world for the last 2k years. Show some respect. Because if you think its done for, you have much coming to you.

[@antegcabo]

What's the purpose of putting "Balkan" on the Roman map? It's not a historical region. It's quite controversial to draw a line and mark it like that today as many nations as Slovnias, Croats, Bosnians... don't consider it as a region and don't accept those modern stereotypes forced from new western politics.

[@frankvandorp2059]

The idea that Galerius set those fires feels very much like an invention by later Christian historians to present themselves as the innocent victims of a baseless persecution. The idea of Christians violently revolting against Diocletian and committing arson goes against that whole narrative, after all. Quite a lot of this episode seems to rather uncritically follow the Christian narrative of events. Especially after how ruthlessly Christians suppressed all other religions as soon as they gained power in the empire, it seems hardly believable that the Christians of Diocletian's time, just one generation earlier, were harmless friendly people who just helped the poor and tended the sick, and were viewed as such by their fellow citizens. You don't go from harmless and friendly into intolerant theocrat in such a short timespan, and Christianity has been known to be quite dismissive and intolerant of other religions and sects from the beginning.

[@armyknightly100]

(GLAD I’M NOT A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT) (NO RULES HERE) (LOOKS LIKE THE LIQUOR HAS ARRIVED) (TALKING (S) ABOUT REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS IS MY SPECIALTY)

[@violetrose415]

Mike is so good in Roman history, SO BAD IN CHRISTIAN BASICS AND HISTORY lol

[@henrycarpenter5733]

Hello Mr Capital Letters. What does the narrator get wrong about christian history?

[@HVLLOWS1999]

@@henrycarpenter5733 He's just not bias. I'm Christian myself. However I'm well aware of the murky beginnings of the religion. History is often a mystery Christianity is not exempt from this as it is part of history.

[@jimtaggert42]

not duxs, duces!!!!! ugggh

[@jacobsoltero2872]

Nay! Diocletianus was innovative yes but if he's largely responsible for the later fudel system then forget him! Domitian would have run a better Autocracy! Aurelian would have done better for sure! Aurelianus!

[@-timaeus-9781]

Nice breakdown. So who would you say are your top favorite emperors? For me I like Marcus Aurelius and Constantine the best, and for the less well known I like Maximinus Thrax the best, the first "barbarian" emperor. Don't know why really. Something about him not being a native Roman and also being a giant always made him stand more to me than the others.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@-timaeus-9781 A Richard III type. Gibbon thought he might well have been maligned by senatorial writers.

[@HVLLOWS1999]

@@-timaeus-9781 Same guy different account here. I'm responding 3 years later because KZbin for some reason doesn't notify my responses. 1 Trajan because if he was 20 years younger at his ascension... well Alexander 2.0 Plus Optimus Princeps. Managed to find equilibrium with Senate. 2 Canstantine because he unified the empire after it fractured again, again. Created the foundations for Byzantium, & Jesus Christ aka DEVS VVLTs, Total War MED II politics, Reconquista & and of course salvation.(I get these ideas are not all great but its vibrant history and culture) 3 Augustus... no need explaining. 4 Domitian being a chad of an autocrate and reversing inflation and ignoring the irrelevant senators when needed. 4. Claudius hecka underrated reign. He fortified the empire and expanded Rome not only by conquest but by clever administration. Also architecture projects. 5 Antoninus Pius because I feel living under his reign must have been peaceful and glorious. Rome at her Summit before her long and agonizing decline. (Aside from the plague during his time, I'm sure that sucked.) 6 Aurelius... RESTITVTOR ORBIS INVICTVS 7 Marcus Aurelius, his meditations are amazing and at times hilarious. Plus he kept Rome as top dog during her times of troubles. 8 Vespasian & Titus The Colosseum. Capable dynasty and I had a dream once that I was back in time in Rome ad 73. I knew the date and I was in a Roman Villa in the city at sunset it was beautiful. Vespasian was the Augustus. 9 Hadrian because his architecture projects defense upgrades and patronage of the arts. Also effective rule. 10 Diocletian his reign annoys me but I fear it was necessary for the time. None the less interesting as it is depressing. He kept the empire alive when it should've died.(I still hate that he practically implemented proto-feudalism) 11 Majorian literally Aurelian 2.0 if he didn't get double crossed by Ricimer. Shame. 12 Justinian, I because Roman Reconquista! Worst Emperors 1 Commodus (Nutcase who ended PAX ROMANA) 2 Caracalla ( GOT Joffrey vibes) 3 Caligula (Psycho) 4 Elagabalus (Sex fiend & Idiot) 5 Nero (Spoiled looser with too much power) 6 Tiberius (Paranoid Pedophile) 7 Alexander Severus (Weak momas boy) 8 Horonius (Lazy do nothing while empire burns.) 9. Phocas (Almost destroyed the burgeoning byzantine empire) 10. EVERY selfish asshole "emperor" who marched on Rome to grab power while the empire was in crisis during the 3d century.

[@graycin3391]

By FAR THE most overrated emp. Such a bum

[@HVLLOWS1999]

My favorite is the Achaemenid Empire. Rome however is not underrated. Their dominance lasted 4-5 centuries. That's no small feat. Comparable to the Han Dynasties entite life span.

[@truro3439]

Diocletian seems like one of the the worst emperors that wasn't mad or incompetent. So much of this sounds like the sort of stuff you'd expect from an east asian emperor not a european one, very out of touch and over-authoritarian.

[@davidanderson7782]

He was a control freak

[@pharaohsmagician8329]

I think he was a great emperor but when he did things wrong he did then really worng. So your comment is accurate. But when he did things right he did them very right

[@frankvandorp2059]

He was one of the best emperors, he solved an insane amount of problems that had existed for decades, and he even tried to divide power again among multiple people because he realized the emperor was too powerful. That alone is why your comment makes no sense, what kind of 'authoritarian' ever proposed to reduce his own power and decentralize it? That is not something that has ever happened, that's the opposite of authoritarianism.

[@Paddythelaad]

Domitian had more than 4 people writing letters, therefore he was better than Diocletian. Diocletian seems hugely over rated, he gets praise for policies that led to civil war.

[@FrnnkEducation]

really love mike duncan. but having kept researching myself and realizing the extent of diocletians acts and realizing that he was the cause of the dark ages taints my image of mike as a historian. amateur or not. you can't ignore the fact that all the top people predicted what debasing your currency would do. they know this in every age and rally against it. they failed then as we fail now. i could go on with how diocletian purposefully did many things that mike even mentions that anyone past or present would know would fail or backfire, like doubling the public payroll(workers) collect record taxes, bring economic technologial development to a standstill, increase the size of the army by almost 100,000 men while simultaneously weakening the 4,000 man legion.... meanwhile, all that wealth was transferred and hidden in guess where. venice. the same port that would rule and abuse the world for the next 1,400 years until napoleon came in. we are face with power players with thousands of years of experience in sticking us up the ass.

[@FrnnkEducation]

respectfully, that is TOTALLY bogus. the brothers who were kennedy-esque trailblazers in roman reform who came centuries before diocletian give false claim to the notion that the ancients didn't understand economics and the balance between social welfare, soldier pay, social management and not getting assassinated. which they did, by the same types who supported diocletian. even jesus gives false claim to the notion that the ancients didn't understand economics. how often did the romans scream about being squeezed by taxes and tainted currencies? look at the richest man in roman history if you think the people don't understand. we can't keep looking down upon the people. instead look up to them. yes, if diocletian is as inteligent as you say and there were precedents and outcrys to what he was doing, (hence the barons firing arrows and pulling up their castle gates when his tax collectors came for their gold) then the fact that he still did them and the INSTANT social decline and subsequent complete collapse and the simultaneous establishment of the venetian scourge who would reign for another 1000 years just doesn't sound like business as usual. that's a conspiracy. the same thing the founders of america shaped the republic to avoid.

[@maqsooddinajihad2521]

FrnnkEducation c'mon tho diocles was great he retired from being emperor just to grow cabbages

[@johnmurdoch3083]

The dark ages and medieval period were not that bad..thats common enlightenment era thinking. There was alot of good in the sysyem and when it worked..it worked.

[@RoboBoddicker]

Dunno what all the Diocletian hate is about suddenly. Did some wacko libertarian blog put up an article about Diocletian being an evil socialist or something?

[@tiami3886]

Copydot The Frnnk in his name might give you a clue about hate. (joke)

[@histguy101]

This "Principate"/"Dominate" emphasis that historians harp on about is mostly exaggerated. Diocletian was very autocratic, but so were many other Emperors before him. People kissed his robe, but this practice comes from the army, and had been around a long time. He did not present himself as a demigod, but many emperors before him did. All were worshipped, and many demanded worship! Diocletian was one of 4 sitting emperors. Are we saying all four were demigods? How does that work? And the usurpations of the third century began again right after diocletian, reaching a fever pitch in the 5th century, so it seems clear the post of "Emperor" wasn't viewed to be any more sacred than it was in the third century, or second century, or even first. In the end, not much changed. The division of east/west goes back to before the empire, and showed up here and there since then.

[@alanpennie8013]

The two Augusti were regarded as avatars of gods, Jupiter and Hercules specifically. Don't know about the Caesars

[@histguy101]

@@alanpennie8013 Yes, but that wasn't really something new. The emperors were regarded as gods and worshipped going back to Julius Caesar and Augustus. There were temples built to worship the emperors all over. Ironically, Diocletian attempted to institute a non-hereditary succession. If he did this formally, he would've been the first emperor to do so.

[@johnDoe-rr1nv]

If your going to talk about the beliefs of the church, at least get it right. They taught that Jesus rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and would return in the second coming.

[@LoneKharnivore]

Nope. At this point they didn't even agree that he had risen from the dead. Maybe don't argue with a period scholar when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[@johnDoe-rr1nv]

@@LoneKharnivore A periodic scholar and yet you don't know what manuscripts dating to 200AD speak considering the life death and ressurection?

[@stevenromo90]

@@LoneKharnivore 1. A period scholar who explicitly admitted he is not a theologian or ecclesiastical historian and thus is even less of an authority on those subjects than he is on Roman history. 2. The resurrection of Jesus was taught by the earliest disciples and constituted the vast vast vast majority of all Christian thought. Even the vast majority of the heretics (like the Arians) would have scoffed at the idea that Jesus was still dead. The "empty tomb" was widely known and accepted by Christians. The podcaster (he is not a historian) simply got it wrong.

[@antonpressing]

Bla blah blah !

[@skeletalbassman1028]

Our narrator loves Diocletian so much, it's funny b/c I couldn't disagree more. Just for the persecution Christians and the creation of the feudal economy Diocletion deserves to rot. He doomed Europe for 1000 years of backward economics and wasted God knows how much human potential all because he was too scared to trust people to make decisions about their own lives. Diocletian's empire is perhaps the first Western attempt at a true command-and-control economy and it ended EXACTLY the same way every experiment with command-and-control ends: miserable failure.

[@frankvandorp2059]

The next centuries proved that Diocletian was completely right about the Christians though. As soon as they took over the empire, they persecuted other religions ten times worse than they had ever been persecuted themselves, and effectively brought an end to whatever science and philosophy the Greco-Roman world was still practicing.

[@skeletalbassman1028]

@@frankvandorp2059 no, they didn’t. You’re just repeating propaganda. Christians banned slavery in Rome.

[@Itsatz0]

Obviously not up on the scholarship showing there were no persecutions of Christians under Nero. Proven made up Christian propaganda.

[@Itsatz0]

​@Pecu Alex kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIXSe3SGatN3gq8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXO7lXyqqMqJZtU kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2O6d3yZebRpp6M

[@christorpher84]

i suppose your gonna prove that moron or else you and me are gonna have a chat

[@cryptoipc6560]

The brief explanation of Christianity given here is incorrect in nearly every detail. I'm loving the secular history in this podcast, but as one who knows the Bible backwards and forwards, I have to urge the listener to disregard everything being said about Christianity, it is so far off the mark. My other channel, The Sharper Sword Channel, provides extensive teachings on Christian doctrine and history for anyone who would like to learn it.

[@jamiecullum5567]

and i urge everyone to disregard all Christian doctrine

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

@@jamiecullum5567 No. Take all the good ideas from Christianity.

[@jamiecullum5567]

What good things? Christianity doesn't provide any unique or special ideas. It's mainly an imaligmation of older religions.

[@yungsouichi2317]

@blorghised it's value system is what is unique about it, imo. Take that as you will en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Genealogy_of_Morality On the Genealogy of Morality - Wikipedia

[@michaelfisher7170]

this kind of complaint ususally boils down to "the Christian history presented here is at odds with what I am taught in my particular denomination." Duncan was correct in his VERY broad recitation of Christian history...he was not trying to push a particular sects or denominations "interpretation" of it. This is how factional nonsense taints the real study of real history.

[@808_rafa]

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