Are Zangief and Lily the Worst Characters in Street Fighter 6?

[@Rooflemonger]

So SF6 been out for a little over a month now, and the understanding of character power is starting to solidify a bit. With that understanding comes the inevitable, turns out the primary grappler characters are not that great in a fighting game? what a shocker! lol. So lets talk about what effects Zangief and Lily in this game and maybe some small changes that could be made

[@1starfalco1]

to be fair ...........capcom hates zangief and he hasn't been good in years. The moment they took away his green hand is the moment the character died

[@rigelseybert9406]

@@1starfalco1 honestly even without Green Hand, if he had the mixup options of old post Suplex jump-in pressure, that would do WONDERS for him

[@evalangley3985]

They are not bad, but the majority of the cast is better.

[@ResidentNotEvil5]

Yes that's way Zangief player snakeyez won combo breaker 2016 sf4

[@gr8powerfuloz86]

I do agree that in terms of burnout state the time it takes to refill should be the same for everyone

[@Megadat]

Its funny how characters like Ken can have it ALL and no one complains. like seriously, he has good anti-airs, good reversals, great corner carry, good mix-ups, good pressure, good footsies, he can zone...SF6 Ken literally has everything you could possibly want in a fighter game character. But the idea of a grappler having a decent anti-air or reversal is absurd and would instantly make them overpowered.

[@Rooflemonger]

Its how it is in every single game. Top tier generic rushdown character never gets blinked at, low tier grappler characters get demonized. And they call me the bad guy for being the only pro grappler/big character youtuber, someone has to stick up for the oppressed characters.

[@WaffleKrushaTTV]

YES!

[@schierke]

@@Rooflemonger nobody likes fighting grapplers thats why, easily most hated archetype besides maybe zoners

[@merkyofaycemfx2944]

@@Rooflemonger Umm.. Hello? did we bump our heads and forget about Ultra Gief? EX Greenhand RFC U1 deletes 70% and is technically a 2/3rds screen punish. Abigail was extremely overtuned when he first dropped. Birdie spent 3 or 4 seasons as an absolute menace, and has a playstyle that forces you to play his game regardless if he wins the matchup or not. Season 1 R. Mika is arguably the best character and was middle of the pack for the life of the game. Sure Alex was basically a wasted character slot until season 5, the character is awesome since getting better oki and plus frames. Gief is a hard case to balance for sure, but lets not act like modern Capcom grapplers haven't or cannot be good which is TOTALLY not the case.

[@ivanleon6164]

Ken jas everything, is annoying af, even an instant overhead and a invincible shoryu.

[@ZYR47]

Lariat is a circle, it NEEDS to be patched to hit behind him. Also hard agree on Gief SA1 being garbage. It sucks as an anti-air, and as a combo ender you get more for less by just doing Ex.Borscht. And Lily being a chores character who is still suspect with her windstocks gathered is just messed up. These are my two favorite characters in 6 so it's not like I'm unbiased, but there is a huge different from them and the blessed rushdowns who get everything for nothing. My hopium is that Capcom kneecapped Gief at the start knowing people would already hate him anyway just for being a grappler, and can tune him and Lily up once the new-game dust settles. .....I doubt it though.

[@JINcredible1]

One funny little thing you forgot about Zangief's Double Lariat is that the World Tour version hits behind him. It feels like the decision to neuter Gief's antiairs came late, so maybe it's a very easy fix.

[@D3Vlicious]

It feels like a lot of traditional anti-air specials are intentionally gimped and vulnerable to cross ups outside of World Tour. Even EX Shoryuken can get crossed up now.

[@LakeEarth]

Coincidentally, Lily's condor spire sucks in world tour mode. Tons of characters can duck under it, including the main cast that can't in the actual game.

[@yikes6758]

@@LakeEarth that could also be due to the variance in hurtbox size between tall and short characters. a lot of moves whiff on crouchers if you're a tall avatar, but will hit on crouchers if you're average or short height. the "size" of the animation and thus the hitboxes (relative to the ground) scale in accordance with character height

[@LakeEarth]

@@yikes6758 the hitbox of spire, like Zangief's Lariat, is definitely different between the two modes. Like it'll whiff a crouching AI Cammy in World Tour, but in a real match, it doesn't.

[@MansMan42069]

​@@LakeEarthHave you taken into account the size of your avatar?

[@Rooflemonger]

I do miss the pre-launch hype/wild misinformation campaign on how the grapplers were gonna run this game. I knew it would fall apart quick but it was nice to live the lie for as long as it lasted.

[@JoeG2324]

yeah, I agree, I was really hoping grapplers would be better in this game, but its not the case. Zangief is a disappointment. I am loving Manon though, shes awesome. lets hope Hugo gets in the game and they do a better job with him.

[@Zeukemor]

Everyone hyped his damage, but it's not exactly outstanding since most of the cast can do as much or more with less commitment/resources/risk. Still wouldn't trade my main man for anyone else (except for T.Hawk).

[@innocentorphan1213]

Capcom finally learned their lesson that no one wants grapplers to actually be good, it's recipe for disaster. They just missed the memo to also hold down Blanka and Honda.

[@MrStarkisser]

I mean there's Manon and her grabs scare the living hell out of ppl.

[@dgw4049]

Is Ex SPD invincible for either character?

[@skyabove7304]

One less obvious thing that drives me nuts with Lily is Condor Spire trades. You spend a stock and two drive bars on an OD Condor Spire and if you trade it does less damage than a jab.

[@matrix3509]

This is one thing I always despised about chore characters and its what keeps me away from Lily: They purposely make the moves trash just to give players extra work. It'd be one thing if the Condor moves were good on their own, but as it is, it feels like you have to have wind stocks just get back to being on par with other characters who get their good stuff for essentially free. Like if Ken had to use an extra resource other than drive gauge to make his EX DP air invincible, Ken players would absolutely riot. Chore characters have always felt like a developer troll for this reason.

[@kevinbradley8613]

@@matrix3509it’s not that hard to do lol… I do agree that trading when I use an EX condor is super frustrating, but meh. I can deal with it. Maybe they’ll give her some buffs soon 🤷🏼‍♂️ both of these characters are a blast to play. Beating people with Lily is super fun haha

[@fennicfox4600]

I feel like Geif's lv1 and lv2 supers really need the buffs. Level 1 needs a better hit box and let us use it in more combo's. Level 2 needs a quicker start up. It's only really useful for fireball reads...

[@seenoweevil1991]

Gief gets so incredibly frustrating to play when you get up into Diamond. I feel like the mechanics of SF6 work against him pretty hard. As a grappler, you need to condition opponents not to jump which is pretty difficult to do safely when a lot of your normals aren't cancellable and prone to getting blown up with DI. The more you play him the more it just feels like you should stop pressing buttons that aren't jab (which is really boring).The corner being so brutal works against him too given he has no corner carry to take advantage of it himself but gets mauled when put in the corners so easily by others. I'd like to see him get *some* oki. A better hitbox on lariat, a cancellable medium button and make OD grabs throw invincible to give him a chance to get out of the corner. Level 1 and 2 super not being terrible would be a bonus.

[@gamelord12]

The mechanics of SF6 all lose to grabs though.

[@simpson6700]

i'm only in gold, but i actually like to condition my enemies to jump and then air grapple them. i think lvl 2 super is fine, i just wish he wouldn't lean so far forward. if someone is in your face in the corner and neutral jumps, they just land behind you.

[@Diet_sprite]

They should give zangief a fake 360 throw via old tiger knee input from sf2 and make it easily cancel to real 360 throw or super

[@JCintheBCC]

@@simpson6700the 18 frame startup on the Lvl2 is harsh. I have tried whiff punished buttons (or even punished before whiffing) and it gets blocked anyway.

[@jamaledwards8118]

I feel like everyone is underestimating how strong air spd really is.

[@StriderHoang]

Zangief has historically always relied on non-special cancelable normals that acted as good pokes to force his way into his strike/throw game. Now, the same moves he relied on in the past are now a huge liability, as not being special cancelable means Gief is extremely vulnerable to DI play. A lot of characters simply don’t worry because their crouch medium or standing heavy can special cancel into DI when needed, but not Zangief. It’s extra ironic a command grab scores a punish counter in this context but again, he can’t special cancel his important pokes.

[@lostvayne9146]

"Gief is extremely vulnerable to DI play." and what a limp and boring weakness this is. I roll my eyes when gief gets DI'd and the player just gotta watch even if they can react because of his shit normals.

[@seenoweevil1991]

@@lostvayne9146 "and what a limp and boring weakness this is" so much this ^

[@ArmoredLeo72688]

I feel like he needs green hand and make his crounching medium kick cancelable.

[@animal1nstinct394]

DI destroys his play style

[@Krausen2]

All gief needs is lariat to be like 1-2 frames faster and make it hit cross ups. Also making his headbutt cancel fireballs maybe.

[@zainy_inc154]

I agree, giving him a better defense is enough for me

[@zo_leo8401]

Yea he already doesn’t have a reversal and lariat not hitting on both sides is such a bad design choice. It always made people jumping in on Zangief play a little more honest. I know ppl will say just do air SPD, but if you are on a hard knockdown you can’t jump quick enough to get the input out

[@OhNoTheFace]

The spinning move does not hit cross ups? That is actively retarded :O

[@MerlinYggdrasill]

As a solo Lily main, I absolutely love the character, however, she gets so locked under pressure. In my opinion, she needs that DP to be invincible, at least the EX one. The down medium kick should definitely have more range or even have a new effect on punish counter such as being special cancelable. I also think that perhaps she should be able to do an air version of her 360 degree throw and maybe her standing heavy kick could be drive rush cancelable but not special cancelable. Overall, I love playing her but I want more for her because I think she really has potential.

[@sabastianpummill2446]

2mk is cancellable, like isn't one of her trials 2mk into dp?

[@SteveYuenyc]

@@sabastianpummill2446 too short...... , 2mk of thawk in ssf2t and sf4 take a serious part , now 2mk of lily is a joke

[@MerlinYggdrasill]

@@sabastianpummill2446 Oh yeah it is! Shows how much I use it! XD

[@MerlinYggdrasill]

@@SteveYuenyc Yeah it's just way too short of a move. I honestly only ever hit people with it cause it's so bad that it's unexpected.

[@DayFul]

Her crouch medium kick is only worth using if you have wind stocks and drive rush into it it's very tough to counter poke.

[@finfen9730]

I play Lily a lot and just some tips for those struggling with the low-tier demon: Lily's light starter combos are bad. Don't do them. Lily's normals as poke tools are fantastic and force your opponent to spend resources to get in (especially MP, LP x2 & LK when close). This is important. Her 2+HP is insanely good at keeping people out from the air. It is the closest normal I've seen to a "wall" in the game so far. This only enforces more that she's trying to get her opponents to burn resources to approach. DO NOT be throwing around Drive Impacts. You use these to counter their Drive Impacts-- unless you're feeling really confident that you're going to counter one of their strings. Instead, use her poke game to frustrate the opponent to use theirs, which you'll promptly see a lot of players do when they realize your range is out poking them all over the place. Her punish tools are insane. Shimmy and bait opponents to whiff and punish counter HP > EX DP > EX Condor Dive. Big big damage. Try your best to do this with full gauge so you don't instantly burnout. Once you learn frame data, you can punish all sorts of things with HP. Her Level 3 should be used as a counter and not as a combo, unless it'll finish the match. Counter Drive Impacts/ Counter big normals. If you like to risk it for the biscuit, counter level 1s with your level 3. While the opponent has Drive Reversal on the table, Wind Stack + EX Condor Spire is exclusively a counter, especially vs projectiles. When the opponent is in burnout, then we can enter with Windy EX CS and force 50/50s for command grab or DP. All this works together to make a very very strong defensive counter playstyle that results in very explosive damage. And the opponent can't be passive either because you'll start to shred their guage forcing them into burnout, which is exactly where you want them.

[@antonsimmons8519]

We got three primary grapplers, and ONE of them isn't bottom-tier lmao

[@Smileyhat]

I like how before the game launched people were talking about how OP Manon's medal system is and how she should lose stacks between rounds, but as strong as it is, it turns out that's just what it takes for a grappler to be good, but still not top tier.

[@vibrato-dv1ye]

Now players are using drive reversal against her drc cancels, so she might struggle too in the future as time goes on.

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@vibrato-dv1ye I think she's going to end up being a mid to high tier character throughout most of the game, perhaps all. I get the impression Capcom wants her strong, just not top.

[@SteveYuenyc]

manon is good because her legs and move got good range ,and combo-able overhead and multi option drive rush , where zang and lily don't have

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@SteveYuenyc Yes, basically she's more complete a character than either of them.

[@GatorOfWar]

I definitely feel the struggle bus with these characters. At the lower levels many players won't feel it as much, but when you're playing higher level players, you feel the disadvantages add up. You can still win with them of course, it's just more challenging and will require harder reads on your part with less mistakes on your punishes and opportunities to land those throws!

[@JoeG2324]

yup, I def agree. Im in gold and the other day, I played a diamond Zangief and I gave them tons of problems. I won the whole set 6 games to 2. If I played any other character at a diamond level, I'd probably get obliterated.

[@DayFul]

Even in gold/plat range you really start to feel it, Lily gets bullied so badly in the corner and DI screws her over hard

[@todayilearnedsomething8105]

​@@DayFulI'm a Silver player and have a winning record against Platinum level Lilly. I honestly get excited when I see her. She is great for breaking any losing streak I'm on.

[@Tahldon-kun]

Admittedly, the more I play Gief, which he's been the only character I've played thus far because I love grapplers, the more I start to feel the wind taken out of my sails. I'm well aware that grapplers can NEVER be top tier (by some weird, unwritten, and unordained law), but I at least expect not to just straight suffer. The lack of Lariat Crossup, the weird, missing arcs of LVL1 super, the slowness of LVL2 super, the 25% burnout penalty, the non-comboing target combos, and the range of Borscht Dynamite are the pits, man. I genuinely would like to hear the considerations from Matz and Nakayama-san on why he's so hindered. The big damage doesn't seem to match up with so many penalties. Looking at the things Honda does just blows my mind in comparison to the hardships Gief faces. That Grappler tax is incredibly high and it's a bummer.

[@Tahldon-kun]

And I even forgot to mention Tundra Storm which is a fun move to use when you can catch it, but I feel it should be up to the player to have control over the hold window instead of it being active so long as is. And that stomping target combo is very odd. It nearly always goes unused and doesn't give a lot of benefits even still. Again, I don't even want him elevated into the ranks of like S-tier or anything, just want the things that he has to work well and I'm more than willing to put in the effort otherwise.

[@Lightrider-oy2qb]

Maybe zangeif can change the angle of the level 1 with different button strengths. Heavy would be a more wide angle. medium would be normal, and light will go the steepest angle.

[@WaffleKrushaTTV]

I was literally thinking this a moment ago.

[@saviormonroe-lh7oh]

As a Zangief main, I think you have some good ideas to make him better. The worst thing about him is his unreliable anti-air options. If they completely got rid of his level one it wouldn't change him at all, and his level 2 needs to be faster on start up. And the longer burnout time should not be the case. That should be universal across the board.

[@WaffleKrushaTTV]

Gief mains stand up!

[@Joshn714]

I main Gief as well in Gold ranks and I'm constantly struggling to manage anti air...and the lariat not hitting from behind is a struggle. Excited for the gameplay meta tweaks. 1,2,3 SPD!

[@saviormonroe-lh7oh]

@@Joshn714 I'm platinum 2 with Gief as of now. When he works, he WORKS! But when he doesn't, it's a hell of a struggle I promise you.

[@nickromano3087]

I feel like his main anti air is HK but it doesn't do well against cross up. Not sure how to handle that problem other than c.HP.

[@BiggusDickus79]

Im a very new player, but the lvl 1 is good with modern controls

[@ChocolateBoyy0]

As a Lily main that got her to diamond, i feel the struggle. I feel like Lily is playing sf5 while everyone is playing sf6. I have fun with her but without wind its very hard to combo and do damage outside of command grab. No invincible wake options. This character needs some more stuff

[@imperfectvirus]

God this is so real

[@rigelseybert9406]

I do agree that SPDs should let you get pressure, but I do think that Zangief should get SOME pressure off of the Suplex. That was always kinda the point of Suplex, trading raw damage and startup speed for mixups, and I wish it did that better in this game.

[@XylessBrawl]

It also did more stun before as well as keeping you closer.

[@oicwutudidder]

You can get pressure off double suplex if you buffer drive rush into knee for a safe mixup that leaves you plus

[@johnsida4499]

You can meaty a SPD tho

[@THE_REEEE_KING]

@@oicwutudidderawesome lets use more valuable meter just to get in! Nah, suplex should be giving OKI.

[@Cirrimus]

I almost think Lily should (also) get passive wind stocks at timed intervals. It would sort out a lot of her weaknesses without making her overpowered.

[@smokepotion6981]

Zangief can move while doing Lariat but... It's like a step one way or another. If they buffed that so he could move at normal speed, it would help his ability to fight off jump spammers by SO MUCH.

[@JunkieMonkey321]

if lily's spd gave a wind stock on hit, that would help. i feel like the risk/reward for an opponent to avoid an spd is pretty wack, too. if you get spd'd, you eat 2800 damage, and if you get hit by her lights into some special (which also require stocks unless she only does 2 lights, which is harder to confirm), you take like 1500. it's hard to really punish people holding up on wakeup the same way that even gief can with stuff that goes into jump ex spd and things like that. idk. some better close ranged medium buttons would also work. maybe give her low jab 4 frame startup so she's not limited to st short which has no range. low jab already does less damage than stand jab and is worse in every way, so may as well make it faster to compensate. im no designer though

[@Jonkin715]

The wind stock gain on SPD is a great idea.

[@MrPseudoGod]

The ex tiger knee SPD is super expensive though, you need ex lariat to set it up or lvl 2 super, usually leaving you in burnout or very close.

[@JunkieMonkey321]

@@MrPseudoGod doesnt low strong lead to some juggles too? i forget

[@MrPseudoGod]

@@JunkieMonkey321 low strong cancels into super and it's easier I feel. But after level 2 super you can't low strong into level one, it's slower and less dmg too.

[@Fatalis_4K]

Using Lily, if your opponent is in burn out and you hit them with wind charged condor spire, your + frames are so much that it requires a micro delay to perfectly time a command crab making it difficult to land without it whiffing. Your opponent will still be in block stun. In other words, she is also at disadvantage if her opponent is in burn out state.

[@habijjj]

Accept if you od wind condor spire your literally right next to them.

[@Furionic696]

@@habijjj its not about distance it's about timing

[@PipeRetrogamer]

This just dignifies my grind the more. Look at this body of iron!

[@Tanuki_sann]

Precisely brother, we will show them our power! 💪

[@pickleo4552]

No mercy no remorse

[@alfredososa3059]

I don't even play Zangief but its pretty bs for Ken's running tatsu to hit behind him but Giefs lariat doesn't 😂

[@MiketheNerdRanger]

Poor Gief just can't catch a break. Stronger than he's ever been, only for it to not matter at all. And I don't know what I expected from poor Lily, but this definitely wasn't it. Hope they get a buff or something.

[@StreyX]

I was definitely hyped to try Lily after the announcement, but unfortunately the experience wasn't for me. It's just way too much work to get my command grab fix. Manon fit the bill perfectly though, so that worked out for me at least. .

[@reperfan4]

Same here. I've been getting a better command grab fix with Honda of all characters because he has the safe pressure and movement to actually set up possible throw situations relatively reliably even if he's only got the one command throw.

[@SneaksBL]

I can confidently say yes they are lol, but man winning with Gief is so satisfying because of it. Rocking with him no matter what

[@Joshn714]

Horosho!

[@semiautotoaster9879]

Given how they treated SF5 Gief I have zero hope for him ever getting better unfortunately. I bet they'll give him stuff no one asked for and then still nerf him anyway.

[@hypersonic3019]

They should give lily the ability to combo into condor dive from tomahawk buster without the use of wind stock or ex. That would help her alot. They should also make sure she can combo into condor spire without a wind stock.

[@alanmoura6058]

Maybe an impopular opinion but i think that the 360 grabs should have priority against normal two buttons grabs, this would helps gief and lily players like me a lot

[@ThePlasticBowl]

Please no

[@Saitoshiba]

You still can do the jump cancel spd. That way their throw will whiff and you get a punish counter spd. But it takes time to actually practice and do it consistently

[@notcaboose4415]

religions arugue whos is the most faithful to their deity, and yet after watching the air grab whiff on lily having the faith to not put down the controller and walk away honestly makes you a contender for a saint

[@aronvaasa8576]

The only thing as a Gief main I ask is just buff either his lvl 1 recovery being very fast wen missed or a better hitbox or larriot hitting crossups and the back and hes literally balanced.. Its not that hard capcom😢

[@Fluffledump]

Holy shit I thought it was just me that was struggling with being crossed up on gief, I feel SO validated

[@raw-b6658]

I think Zangief’s anti air super needs to hit basically anything in the air that’s near him and lariat needs to be able to crossups. Also zangief feels like he needs another special move, something to make getting in a bit easier or just make his kick counter act like a regular counter, that move sucks. lily needs to start off with full wind sticks and make her ex-dp fully invincible.

[@shaunchan5890]

Here something I never seen anyone suggest, give his overhead kick 1 hit of armor or projectile invincibility.

[@matrix3509]

In a game where your character's place in the tier list is essentially wholly dependent on which of your normals are special cancelable, Gief's feels very purposefully tuned to be less than stellar, which makes me despair at the unlikeliness of future buffs. Its one aspect of Street Fighter that I'd wish they'd just bite the bullet on and make universal across all characters.

[@Stringblazer]

Zangief might have some problems but the only change I want for him is for lariat to hit both sides. Its already not as consistent as other anti airs, and this would really help on some annoying scenarios. That said, he's still super fun to play, just hit plat 3 yesterday

[@WaffleKrushaTTV]

Congrats!

[@bmetas]

Personally I'd also like to see EX SPD be throw immune once again. Feels like they removed it in SFV for no reason other than to kick him while he's already down.

[@nagiiboo]

POV: A grappler main crying for help. I also use Zangief so I’m begging for justice too.

[@MammaSomari]

What infuriates me about lariat is that since you can slightly move left or right during it, you can accidentally turn a normal jump-in into a crossup and thus fail to anti air it.

[@BaronVonLethal]

As a Lilly main there are some minor things I'd love. Her level one super is slow and moves forward so it's bad as a wake up. Would be nice if it hit behind her (like the move visually implies) at least it would be good against cross ups on wake up. Also her dp goes under jump ins a lot for me, if she doesn't get invulnerable dp at least give it a more vertical hitbox. Wind stock ex dp should be invulnerable if they don't want to make her standard ex invulnerable.

[@yasindemirci53]

I've missed tons of level 1 with Gief even tho I made the right reads and reactions, it is so disappointing, they have to increase the hurtbox and also give it just a little more speed so that we can do it on reaction. I also agree they have to buff his Lariat. I'm having a hard time dealing with jumpy jump jumps. In terms of low combo damage I think it's fine for now, all I want is better air defense.

[@KittSpiken]

OD spire being a true reversal was obviously decided against, so how about splitting the difference; OD without a wind stock stays the same, but WITH a stock is a true reversal (assuming that isn’t always the case).

[@JoshuaGanoTyraxLightning]

One possible idea for Lily: Buff Crouch Medium Kick so instead of kicking out, have it kick out in a mini dash kinda way. Put some momentum into it kiddo! Possible idea for Zangief: Quit eating all 110% of the Fat and Grease along with that Meat! Drain at least the majority of the Grease outta that Meat before ya eat it you fool! Then maybe ya won't have such an awful time with your Burnout Recovery! :P (Being a huge tough guy doesn't give you free invincibility from health risks like Poor Blood Pressure, Heart Attacks, Strokes, or the like man!)

[@travishurst2242]

I feel like they purposely throttled the power of the main grapplers in order to gauge whether or not they would be oppressive(or have the illusion of being oppressive early on) and will be buffing their obvious issues once players settle in the game more

[@spiralbottom]

Change the input motion on Lily's overhead. I strongly suspect that move has been done unintentionally more than intentionally. I saw ProblemX do it accidentally at Kumite when trying to cr.HP a cross-up but he was crouch blocking instead of just crouching so the overhead came out. It's doing more harm than good.

[@mr.checkyourself4672]

A lot of fans say Lily needs a buff or something.

[@sabastianpummill2446]

She feels like she's in a permanent state of playing catch up. Imo. Like if I don't have or am not currently getting stonks I'm doing it wrong.posted before viewing video.

[@elsamurai1220]

She has no defensive utility in this game. She has no invincible wakeup. You can just bum rush her down and there's nothing she can do about it.

[@sabastianpummill2446]

@@elsamurai1220 she has the same wake up coverage Manon does tbh. Only sa1.

[@DayFul]

​@@sabastianpummill2446Manon has much scarier pressure and damage to offset that, She also has one of the best anti air normals in the game.

[@topshotta2000]

​@@elsamurai1220yup

[@doomkid360]

As a casual player for both of them, I feel like a lot of my complaints about the characters aren't even their own faults, but that other characters just feel so much better. Very small things I would like to see is just giving lariat like, better anti air and having it able to cross up would be so nice. I would love if giefs level 1 was better, but it is what it is. When comparing to potemkin, what I love the most about him is literally not even pot buster, its heat knuckle. Having an almost immediate anti air grab that sets me up is amazing. Its so hype and landing it gets me so excited. I wish gief had a more consistent version of that (and no I dont mean like air headbutt + air spd, itd be dope if he had both options) so you can answer jump ins in many ways. Like imo it really should feel like you cannot jump against him, I'd love that. I don't know what it is about lily, I really want to like her, I've been playing her so much and it feels awful for me. I like her moves and having another character to practice spd on, but she feels so annoying to have to get wind in order to do combos. Esp in the trials, they give you set ups for getting wind combos, but its not "free" to just build wind. Some characters get so much more off on their combo strings and I feel like you really have to work for it for her. Idk how they could balance that but I hope they consider that, because I really want to like her. I enjoy her spinning moves into mix ups, that part is fun, but its only fun when its actually able to go online lol. Maybe it would be busted but I feel like both zangief and lilys level 3s should just catch if you are next to think, ground or air. Maybe make it like a specific vertical line or something, but it would be nice to have that moment where its like, oh fuck I have nothing else to do. At least for zangief, you really can avoid it or try to bait it out, and he is so fucked when he whiffs its probs fair. If lily had that same immediate catch that gief has, it would really be a big change for her I think. I really like these characters a lot, I really hope whatever changes they do make them even more fun to play.

[@UsaElSentidoComun]

As a Design Director working in Game industry, i can say a couple of things about Zangief, for instance: - The user experience playing Zangief is 90% of the time a suffering, even whjen you win. You feel you have like 3 tools to manage the combat (Drive Rush, Lariat, grab) in a char with really low mobility, while enemies usually can use proyectiles, teleports, tons of footsies, OD dragon punches, full screen level 3, super easy confirmation combos, cross ups, crazy mixups... It's like you have 3 possibilities, they have 10. When you have to defend in corner, basically you want to let Zangief die and go to the next round. For instance, the burn out Cammy loop on Zangief, because his level 1 and 2 are "useless" makes the matchup so fustrating... I mean, from user's perspective, to play Zangief vs to play Ken, Juri is like you play in HARDEST mode. Like nighmare mode in player vs CPU. The amount of focus and zero fails you need to play with him makes Zangioef a very stressing char. How to solve it? Well, to balance chars in a fighting game is REALLY hard to do, even for the best designers. My humble proposal for Zangief could me: - GIving him something like Amnesia's JP, a counterattack using OD bar could give him more defensive tool. JP defense is not good, but AT LEAST you have more "rock paper scissors" tools to deal while you are defending in a corner situation. Enemy can still read your counterattack, and designers could create a counterattack that just trake out pressure, and maybe creating a +frames opportunity, but not direct damage, to balance it more. - To get zoned is not usually a big problem in SF6, because no chip damage and parry helps a lot. But in some matchups, like Guile or JP, to play Zangief is too hard, IMHO. I mean, a grapper has to suffer agaisnt a zoner, but one thing is to suffer, and other is to literally can't do a shiet. Even Lily can pass over some proyectiles with some moves. I think fierce punch is the Capcom proposal for that, but not sure is working fine. They could add proyectile invincibility to forward medium kick, for example, to give him a chance to close up against proyectiles, for instance. Honestly, i think Zangief, well played, it could be even tier B, cause he can punish really well and cheap enemy fails. But the fact you need drive rush all the time to just have a change of do something, and the fact you have less tools to play the rock scissors paper game, makes Zangief, as i said, so fustrating to play.

[@KenshinRyuzaki]

Wishlist for Gief: Lariat hits crossups, and level 1 hits everything above him (within the distance of the jump arc) until they cross over (can delay level 1 super to do a crossup super). He should be the ultimate 'don't jump' character. Wishlist for Lily: EX +1 Wind stock Condor Spire should let you react to the drive reversal (if you still attack/command grab into it though you should still get knocked away, you should be able to guard or Drive Impact it though). Make her 2LK 4 frames (additional option after Wind stocked condor spire). Finally, why does her Tomahawk follow-up cost 2 bars but Luke's follow-ups only cost him 1 bar? Make that shit 1 bar too please.

[@prof.laytonfan764]

I mean, at least Zangief is taken seriously nowadays. If you just let him do whatever he wants he’s gonna kill you in three grabs. Lily, who has potential to be crazy, relies heavily on her wind stock. If you never let her build up wind then she’s hardly a threat.

[@habijjj]

Accept there are plenty of safe ways to get wind stocks. Down heavy punch ok block into light wind stock gets done in time to counter drive impact. Plus you can end interactions with medium and heavy wind stock since they're safe generally because of their range.

[@prof.laytonfan764]

@@habijjj I’m not saying that there isn’t ways for her to safely build stock. Just saying that it’s something her opponent should be aware of.

[@heroncolby2842]

A lot of characters get comparable spd damage from a hit confirm combo and also get a follow up mix up. Idk It feels like you're being punished for landing a spd. It's so strange. Grapplers job is too get in and once they do get in, they should have the tools to stay in.

[@WaffleKrushaTTV]

Yes it's so annoying landing anything with him because he pushes the opponent 3 miles away.

[@TlbHibiki]

For Zangief 's anti air I would like to see how his instant aerial spd works in crossup situations. Lily feels great to me. Close up oki isn't everything. Even if the opponent is in the corner and Lily has a large gap to cover, she has good tools to cover their escape options. I often stick 1-2 character lengths away from people when they're stuck in the corner anyway. Sure it gives the person more space and more options but it also gives you more time to punish counter anything they do. In any fighting game I know people are scary when they can lock me down at a distance where I can't do anything meaningful to get out of it. I personally like characters that have easy execution and depends more on set play rather than constant pressure. If Lily gets a buff, cool. If she remains low tier, cool. I believe it's fine if there are characters that have different win condidtions and hope that not everyone has to rely on a strong drive rush to remain competative. Of course this is coming from someone who mained 3rd strike Alex. I think we can all agree that grapplers are way better in this game than 3rd strike Alex. We just need more unconventional gimmicks for Lily and Zangief and we're all good.

[@Jonkin715]

Lily is a decent character, but like Roofle stated, her defense is trash. Against a character with good defense/keepaway (Guile comes to mind), Lily struggles to get in even with windstock.

[@TlbHibiki]

@@Jonkin715 good to know! Honestly I couldn't jump online to see how bad it really is and the people I'm around don't typically rely on fireball spam even if they should. The JP player I usually play against swears up and down that the reason they don't against me as that it doesn't work. It's probably different against a guile tho I wonder how bad it is compared to trying to get in as a grappler to the last few street fighters? Is it hard for Lily compared to other characters in the game or compared to grapplers in the past? if it's former, we all good really. Grappler players had to have learned how to deal with it already.

[@Cassapphic]

Partly inspired by the character usage video I took lily into placements the other day... she instantly became my higest ranked character (barely edging out my manon plat 1 to lily plat 2) but I could tell from how I was playing I was getting away with a lot of dumb stuff I shouldn't be. She was fun though and I do hope she gets buffed. And seeing these issues from primarily a manon player perspective is interesting as she has some of them too but not the same way or as bad, she can only really get looping pressure after a grab outside of cheap hits with overhead-low if the opponent has no reversal as DR is too telegraphed and unsafe, which is probably my biggest gripe with the game, some characters can empty DR to bait reversals, others cant.

[@battlericky17]

12:41 i think its because he gets crazy burnout recovery when he hits a command grab but thats just theory

[@Hailstormful]

Worst thing is that Zangief's cr. MP and Headbutt can't link naturally, which means his meterless combos are non existant... for a character that's so Drive Gauge intensive, it's pretty bad...

[@YouGuessIGuess]

Shout outs to all the content creators with thumbnails of OP! and BROKEN thumbnails featuring Zangief pre-release. Y'all knew you were casual baiting and did it anyway. I agree with your recommended changes. Nothing too crazy. These characters don't feel hopelessly weak, but they definitely have to work harder than some others.

[@subigirlawd_7307]

Lilys cmd grab gets stuffed by mash jabs and her down hp also can get stuffed by certain characaters, it feels like the whole drive system works against her

[@KDRAH]

Lariat,Tundra storm ,running bare grab, level 1 super all the things that are killing me when playing Gief at intermediate level. I 100% agree with this video and at this point Im convinced that Capcom hates Gief.

[@benro6564]

Tried Lily, Gief, and Manon and it was honestly kind of a frustrating experience. I picked up Marisa who I had quite a bit more fun with, but eventually succumbed to the fireball + dp overlords and play Dee Jay now. If Lily had an actual invincible EX DP, that would make her stand out a lot more. I also think her level 1 should cover cross ups, but that's just a funny idea

[@g-string4609]

Zangief fix: Regular Lariat add air invincibility; OD Lariat add full invincibility.

[@joaquinbitancor1269]

so about the more scaling in lily's combo, is known that some moves add additional (and different from the scale of number of hits) scaling, for example jamie's EX divekick adds 10% scale just like his LP, LK, MP target combo does too

[@adammealing8632]

I think you needed to think through the damage of the grabs and the position it puts Zangief in. Damage is not a good benefit in 6 as everyone has insane damage. Most of the cast can deal crazy damage in a way less reliant on using bar and get into a good position to pressure. Through massively increasing damage, thinking around positioning needs to change. Zangief is spending bar all over the shop just to move. Was a good video!

[@awesomereviews1561]

I played Zangief for 12 hours on ranked and i m Platinum 5 stars ( almost Diamond). I played Guile for 45 minutes and I’m already Diamond… So yeah, Zangief and Lily play a different game than the other characters. Another thing that would Zangief better is the ability to cancel more moves with DI. He is severely lagging behind everyone on that aspect.

[@yuhboik.g.8118]

Another key weakness of Lily is her vulnerability to both drive impact and drive reversal. Especially considering it's in her approach. All versions of Condor Spire (regular, wind stock, EX, EX windstock) loses to drive impact on reaction at further ranges and at close range they lose to drive reversal.

[@CapcomSwagg]

They tryna get rid of 50/50s? Coulda fooled me with how many people have throw loops

[@g-string4609]

People should be afraid of getting close to Gief and they are rushing him down.

[@DayFul]

Luke has an extension on his invincible dp and is much stronger than Lily overall so it being invincible isn't out of order. Too many of her buttons are susceptible to drive impact which in turn limits her ability to convert damage. The wind stocks put her on the back foot at the start of the round and she can be punished hard for trying to get them, It's frustrating when the likes of Ken and Juri can race out the blocks with much scarier pressure without any set up. I'm still relatively new to SF so my fundamentals hold me back a lot but Lily is fun and I'm sticking with her however the gap in character strength is frustratingly clear.

[@IllSeabassVideo]

Note about Gief Cross-up: the safe cross up move is actually the Heavy kick forward. It has an almost 180 angle on top of zangief. I can use it pretty consistently to deal with a jump. The level 1 I think is better used as a follow up to level 2(hold). Easier to land borsch dynamite for jumps.

[@SonicBoyster]

I think it's worth touching on the positives and some of the aspects of the characters that may improve over time as well. Light SPD still has great range for both characters and only a 5 frame startup, so as matchup knowledge improves and players get used to using parry these moves will become more effective as punish tools. Now that grabs do extra damage on Punish Counter it's scarier than ever to whiff a button or go punishably minus in front of a grappler. Gief's armored fierce punch provides a far less risky response to some of the more obnoxious pressure in the game (Honda headbutt, Blanka Ball) as long as you aren't fully charging the thing before you release it. In many matchups his wheelkick can be spaced to be very difficult to punish and provides him an extra tool to close distance and punish long range whiffed normals. His level 2 can be combo'd into his level 1 to provide level 3 damage without having to land the level 3. Drive rush into SPD is very real, and something like headbutt drive rush into headbutt will catch someone trying to jump out with a grounded combo. The only change I feel like I really need for Zangief is his lariat hitting behind him. I wouldn't even mind if they made it EX only. It's bad enough that characters like Deejay or Ken can run up into his face and provide pressure he can't effectively respond to, but when they're on the offensive they have every opportunity to jump over his head and force a mixup, which really kind of kills the big scary grappler vibe. Beyond that I suspect just getting better at parries and punishing pokes will really help him compete with the top tiers.

[@lostvayne9146]

he needs faster recovery on his normals or special cancelleable. DI kills gief.

[@zxadvent19]

I’m having fun playing as Lily but it’s tough to fight against characters that can really pressure you.

[@Jonkin715]

A decent Cammy is a nightmare to deal with.

[@lawlessx9]

Fighting ken,Cammy,juri..is the worse

[@Itslewcario]

Nah a Kimberly that can mixup is scary as shit as well 😭

[@toro_sensei]

Zangief I feel light spd and heavy have identity, like light has insane range while heavy is the damage cash out, so i feel medium being the one in the middle of having a little more range then heavy only slighty more damage the light but its the one that gives you oki would be pretty cool

[@2cents968]

Challenge accepted! I do love an underdog... What's wrong with me? I can't be the only one who always gravitates towards the least played/lowest tiered characters in every competitive game.

[@technounionrepresentative4274]

Its funny how people thought gief and lilly were thought to be potential top tiers, it annoys me that zoners and shotos are seemingly being considered top tiers AGAIN, the more things t Change the more they stay the same

[@Copperhell144]

If Luke can EX DP into follow-up for 2000 damage and 3 bars, Lily can have her EX DP be a reversal even if it means some damage adjustment.

[@Hero-rl5sc]

Just a bit confused is their any reason why Ryu is in C tier, like I understand that tier lists are just opinions but I’m curious is their any reason behind it 1:02

[@Rooflemonger]

Ryu is solid, but nothing special. There isn't anything he has that another character doesn't do better for the most part

[@LIVEvil789]

I think they should ditch the stocks and have "Windclad" just be a status that she achieves by some means. Maybe have a meter that gradually increases naturally as the wind gathers around her, making her "Windclad" when it maxes. Perhaps performing attacks, dashing forward or just not being hit for a while build the wind, like building up momentum (or now that I think about it, sort of like Vorpal in Under Night). The current move she uses to get stocks can still perform a similar function to build the meter when held, but when fully Windclad can draw opponents toward her like Seth's Tanden Engine. She can lose Windclad after a command grab or Super, but it should do extra damage. Enhancements to Condor Spire/Dive/Tomahawk should be permanent as long as she's Windclad, but maybe not so advantageous on block, for balance. And if we want to get really crazy, attacks with the club while Windclad could create an extra air slash ahead of the club for some more reach/extra hit and maybe even nullify fireballs it clashes with like Juri's Fuha.

[@GreenBro11]

I think Lily is also just too predictable. Her game plan is to get wind stocks to gain plus frames, and go for the grab. Some of her limited combos only work with wind. The problem is that gets shutdown very easily with pressure and a Lily without wind can only rely on decent normals that don’t lead to damage. She needs either a true reversal, or better conversion off normals, or at least more forgiving wind stocks, god forbid some decent okizeme off grab.

[@adamrivera7667]

Off topic question but I remember them saying that we are getting like a juke box how can I change music during fights and like menu music

[@Offbeaten]

Is burnout tied to how large your healthpool is, perhaps? I don't know how Marisas burnout is (I think she was #2 on hp)

[@notcaboose4415]

no, its standardized

[@Hustler0ne]

Marisa and E. Honda have same burnout as everyone else, even though their healthpool is 10,500. Only Zangief has longer burnout.

[@BenaresMusic]

I forgot to say that i hate the "loaded" jump heavy kick

[@cinnabarsin4288]

How often Lil's DP doesn't even come close to hitting someone who isn't jumping from full range is a problem unto itself. 4 bars on the full EX DP is a huge cost for the damage IMO, if you would be using it as a reversal you're probably burning out or close to it. If Kens wanted to feel special they could maybe code it so she couldn't do it off a reversal or if the invincibility protected her, like how she can't do the dive off DP on block or whiff. If they want her to be like Gief where she has big holes in her game but some really good tools, then she needs comparable damage at least. Feels bad when you struggle through it all and feel like you got no reward before JP knocks you full screen with one attack and you get to push the boulder back up the hill.

[@BLAHBLAH1000shop]

I'm new to playing Gief so idk how this move worked in the past. I find it so weird how he has a parry counter move, Tundra Storm, which is basically pointless on this vanilla launch. Woah, big grappler has a counter move. Sounds great and useful! Oh, it's only applicable towards grounded kicks? I guess it still has its uses. Oh, it doesn't even work on all grounded kicks? Really weird inconsistency, but maybe it sets you up for oki? Oh, you get zero oki and pushes you back half a screen. Whatever, that's most of his grabs anyway so I would expect the damage to be good. Oh, it does less damage than a light SPD? So it's competitively useless, but I can still throw it out to scare 'em right? Oh, you get mega punished cuz you just stand there with your arms out like a dumbass for like two whole seconds. Might as well delete it from the movelist. I fully acknowledge I'm scrub-quoting rn since it can bypass some character-specific DRs and DPs, but Tundra Storm has the worst odds than any other risky move in the game. Like, it'd be a great option of skipping neutral on predicable opponents, but it instead boils down to a massive gamble on a hard read (which is very character specific) that doesn't even reward you when you land it. There's no point in using it unless they cut the active frames in half in my eyes. If anyone has actually been successful with Tundra Storm, please tell me what I should look for!

[@icemanTK]

I just hit platinum with Zangief, my favorite anti air is an OD Borscht Dynamite. Can't use it all the time but it hits so hard and is so satisfying

[@justsignmeup911]

Zangief only has the level 3 reversal, no cancelable pokes, and also his lariat sucks. But his level 3 super is really, really good. Raw D-Rush helps him a lot, letting him get in more easily than he ever could before. Probably bottom 2 but he's still got stuff. I would improve his OD lariat and maybe give him some sort of kick lariat again, hopefully with a graphical change this time. Lily needs a major rework. How about this: make wind stocks safer against DI, and give her a way to use extra stocks to make her moves even better.

[@Fluenzo]

None of Gief's good neutral buttons cancel into DI which is hurting him big-time.

[@guillenherman100]

arent throw loops just 50/50's so u saying capcom is stepping away from that doesnt make too much sense. and luke also has a follow up with his dp and his is invincible so lets hope lily gets hers

[@fugopannacota7512]

how does the balance patching in street fighter function in general they do it from month to a couple? or one per year of season pass?

[@ArmoredLeo72688]

Personally, I'm starting to believe that capcom is just afraid of having a good grappler in their game cause the community is just going to fucking cry about it. Its infuriating that I can't apply tons of pressure but also can't defend myself as a gief player.

[@MrPseudoGod]

Make lariat hit cross up, fix lvl 1 super, make tundra storm useful. I also think make his level two super do more damage if you hold it or scale less if you start with jabs

[@dangtiendung4766]

Zangief regular Lariat can easily be blocked by empty jump as well unless you are really on point and always loses to dive kicks. So yeah, can't even anti air dive kicks.

[@THECOOLKID93]

Low key, fellas with throw loops more scary than the grapplers themselves smh lol

[@gamelord12]

I don't think any character in this game is bad, but as a gief main, gief has some clearly bad moves that should have a use other than being used by accident. 2HP basically has no use except against Dhalsim, and you could still sub it for 5HK most of the time. You highlighted SA1 already, so nothing more to be said there; based on pre-release footage, I thought I'd be Heavenly Pot Bustering fools constantly, but I'm not with the way it works right now. Far running bear grab is more likely to come out by accident than it is to be used in a situation where it makes sense, so does it REALLY need to spend like 20 frames throwing his arms up to look scary? Surely it can still be reactable without that. And Tundra Storm...just make that move make sense, so it's easy to learn and apply without having a wiki page open. Make it counter everything that's input with a Kick button or something; just make it useful. JP gets to counter literally every move in the game, and gief only gets to counter SOME kicks.

[@valsione38]

It's not that they're bad, they're viable but don't have the tools the rest have, you can perfectly destroy people with them, stronger fundamentals make em viable. Gief desperately needs his lariat to work against crossups and have faster startup with his lvl2 imo

[@DayFul]

I watched Problem X take Lily past a Guile and 2 JP's only to fall at the final hurdle to a Sim a couple of days back all top players. She certainly has the firepower to compete but it's more work for sure.

[@valsione38]

@@DayFul I have a master zangief and some times I felt I was hard stuck in some matchups but then I remembered how itazan played gief during the Capcom cup and it made me have lots of patience, honestly I don't think these characters are for everyone and sometimes is frustrating but very rewarding

[@harrrieee]

11:15 scaling is just kind of unusual everywhere in this game, for example, cancelling Jamie’s OD palm (214PP) into SA3 does more scaling than linking into SA3 using the OD palm tumble animation. Also i read somewhere that characters recover drive gauge faster in burnout than they do normally, but Zangief recovers drive gauge in burnout at the same rate as normal, which could literally just be a bug

[@jamaldowner]

While everyone else is out there "Street Fighting", Zangief is out there trying to sell a match. He's doing his job of making the other characters look better.

[@Al0305]

I’ll be happy with gief with 2 little fix 1. Double lariat to work like a double lariat and couple less frames star up to be more consistent 2. Spd should be throw invulnerable

[@JCintheBCC]

I think all those early Tier Lists that had Gief top tier aged really poorly.

[@garou12]

capcom seems to undercook their grapplers on purpose esp if u compare em to their snk counter parts. the grapplers in kof are scary af to play against.

[@JeffreyHillwhoooo]

Anti air super is best for neutral jumps and jump backs or jumps in by far. I rarely miss. It's actually ridiculous vs back jumps