Rover V8 Su v Edelbrock 500 Dyno tested

[@brynevans6830]

Another great video Graham, I really enjoy these and appreciate the effort you go to to show the typical mod’s people do with the real world outcomes.

[@PenguinMotors]

thanks, thats usually my goal, thats why i do test less than perfect engines from time to time

[@Decadentwest]

Back in 86 I was rallying an SD1 that we fitted with 2inch SU’s off a scrapyard Jag, went fairly well!!

[@gothicpagan.666]

Elderbrock make a great carb. But those old SU's still get the job done on some engines. Fascinating comparison on a good spec V8

[@Tk-ou9ec]

Here in Australia,my Chrysler 5.2L or 318 is a mild engine,actually being a 1980 engine it was quite choked up from factory with all the emissions garbage on it and I suspect the heads are not very free flowing either? However it now runs a mild cam with an Edelbrock intake and the same carburettor you ran,a 500 Edelbrock. It was tuned professionally and I must say that it works beautifully! It made 210 hp at the wheels and is quite responsive. Great carbs

[@rotaxtwin]

@@Tk-ou9ec Sounds like a healthy 318, almost all the 318s I have seen (in original configuration) have been strangled with a 2 bbl. They are a bit of an underdog but respond to tweaks well.

[@Tk-ou9ec]

@ yes it was a 2 barrel engine also equipped with the ELB electronic lean burn system. It was a sluggish ride. Supposedly only had about 140hp from factory in which I presume was at the flywheel??? So yes it does go much better now.

[@kathysarmcandy1992]

My brother stuffed a Buick 215 in his Austin A35. 11.5:1 and a long cam. Basically undrivable with 290hp. But it sounds awesome.

[@davidmccormack2172]

My dad fitted the alloy 4 Ltr into the ford cortina’s here in Australia back in the 80’s made and cast his own 4 brl intake manifold and machined them. The engine has custom pistons & rods and those very poor alloy cylinder heads got a fair bit of welding and port work and then you ended up with a awesome motor. So if you ever saw a Ford Cortina with a Ford 9” from the back in Adelaide you were going to be surprised and beaten in a drag race if you thought I will give he a race. Still have the drawings and his notes and the mould for the manifold along with the information on pistons and rods and modifications needed. I do wish I had the actual complete vehicle. Someone i believe still does have the car in Adelaide as people have told me about at various car events. If you have it please get it back on the road again.

[@kieranproven4874]

Your Dad was an animal. Love it. What was his trade?

[@guidorollard2944]

As long as you can throw money on it have it build. Or you are very smart to mix match components, and have it or DIY machined to fit. I knew a guy from South Africa, i lost track of him unfortunatly. But what he knew wich what could do work together, was impressive. Greetings from Netherlands

[@davidmccormack2172]

@@kieranproven4874 dad was lucky he got to do 2 trades at once he is toolmaker and a welder who also did work in a foundry.

[@motorosso3349]

i think the dyno curves are more a reflection of the intake manifolds (runner length) than the carburetor type. of course, they are related as the carbs are specific to the manifolds. Although, as an experiment, the SUs could be adapted to the Edelbrock manifold. The Edelbrock manifold exhibits the typical short runner dyno curve. I agree that the SU set up is better for heavy car, automatic transmission use. In a light-weight car (Morgan for example), the 4-barrel type manifold would be better.

[@jimtitt3571]

Good God, people still p#ssing around with those things! I was the machinist/engine builder for Janspeed when the Rover V8 was a thing and did the Le Mans project engine as well as the Leyland race engines. The port size was death on the heads and we just ripped them out with a big end mill but the rest couldn't be helped, the only way we could get real power was dry-sumping with a doubled pressure side oil pump and for aspirated engines a billet flat crank (which took me a month of overtime to make). With TH injection we could pull over 450hp from the 3.5 block but for Le Mans we went to twin turbo and 4.7l flat crank and could get over 600hp on the dyno (and destroy gearboxes). Basically thirty years later you could get better power from any Japanese 2l engine.

[@PenguinMotors]

That TR7 is still around, I was on the pit wall at the start of a race at Silverstone earlier this year next to it at the start of a race, where upon the red lights going out it promptly spat the propshaft and several gallons of fluid all over the track

[@truthboomertruthbomber5125]

On any “vacuum” secondary or air door controlled carb it’s a good idea to make sure the secondaries are reaching WOT. The 500 is calibrated for a small American V8 like a 289 Ford. The 3.5 may not open the air door all the way.

[@rotaxtwin]

@@truthboomertruthbomber5125 isn't that the beauty of an air door staged carburetor? What if it isn't fully opening? No problem.

[@daledavies2334]

Opening is tuneable. The older air doors were counterbalanced with a weight. Grind a bit off and try again. The new carbs have a clock spring that is adjustable by adding or reducing spring preload. The AVS2 models come with annular primary boosters which aid atomization with Airgap style manifolds.

[@guidorollard2944]

Is a Rover v8 like the 3,5 liter expensive in rebuild? parts? How easy or hard to find today. Oh i forgot there was this Ford Cortina ( Steve Green? ) on the dragstrip many years ago that had a very powerfull to 5 liters in the end. I wonder how much developement went in there, and why stick to that concept? ( by the way happy new year )

[@PenguinMotors]

Rover v8 is expensive to rebuild in comparison with say a pinto, but then again there’s twice as much engine. It’s getting harder to find good quality parts, but still possible. Yes remember Steve Greens Cortina. Yes it had a hell of a lot of development but, back then there weren’t as many viable alternatives, especially not lightweight ones. Once you get so far down the line it’s really expensive to reengineer to a different engine.

[@peterbroad1772]

Thanks for these videos. I'm seeing very different use cases here for manual and automatic cars. With my auto i hardly ever use more than 3,500rpm and it's clearly spent much over 4,000rpm. I can imagine as standard, the manual is a little bit dull (it's basically a diesel!) and a cam and 4 barrel if nothing else will make it more fun to rev out. But it's clear as most P6s are autos, people need to stop and think because it's easy to make the car worse for general driving with conventional tuning. I'm seeing the 3.9/4.0 as a sweet spot for a build. I'd like to go for a hotwire setup on 4 hole injectors, because I really like the drivability of EFi and I know how to program the 14CUX.

[@PenguinMotors]

I think 3.9/4.0 is a good choice, I recently dyno’d one, it was tired and literally had bugger all oil pressure but still churned out more power than most 3.5 along with tons more torque

[@daledavies2334]

With Edelbrock carbs, much of the tuning is done with the metering rods, the same as SU's or Stromberg CD carbs. Metering rods allow you to richen or lean low or high RPM separately. Requires getting the tuning kit for the carb model.

[@PenguinMotors]

Yes aware of that, the Edelbrock was pretty close to ideal, but that’s no surprise it was sold jetted to suit a 3.5 so I did what most people do and just bolted it on, out the box it’s very good

[@guidorollard2944]

what is good about american made carbs, they made it simple as sort of in time, with tuning possibilities like the old Dell'Orto and Weber metering. I do not know history of Edelbrock or for instance Holley. I used Holley 390 four barrel vacuum secondary on a OHC 2200 CC Pinto when i was young. Holley even good i think. But i did not knew about tuning them perfectly back then. I bet that if you spend many hours to get things right, a Carburettor does not do much less at performance as ThrottleBodies.

[@kieranproven4874]

Great video mate.

[@rotaxtwin]

How much of this difference is due to the differing intake manifold design? Guess we'll never know. I suspect the low speed throttle response would be better with the SUs and would be inclined to suggest the 4 BBL for hooligan use.

[@PenguinMotors]

the two manifolds are essentually same design, but obviously differ in detail. Throttle response is better on the 4 barrel, if for no other reason the 4 barrel has accelerator pumps, where as the SU use dampers to hold down the pistons and richen the mixture on accelation which obviously stiffles airflow

[@grandtrousers]

What do you think of the Pipercross cam in a P5B (with the Edelbrock)?

[@PenguinMotors]

You mean a Piper cam ( Pipercross make air filters) how well it works will depend on which can you choose, whatever cam you pick though you have to bear in mind the P5 auto gearbox wont take kindly to anything other than a very mild cam. This test seems to bear out what most say, the 4 barrel will loose low end power, and im my experience anything other than a very very mild cam will also loose you low down torque. So with that in mind i would probably stick to a standard or 3.9 discovery cam

[@grandtrousers]

@PenguinMotors thank you for your reply (love watching all your videos). I don't want a big increase in power so when I get round to checking the push rods and shim buckets I will take your advice. The car has good and even compression but sounds a bit tappety.

[@PenguinMotors]

if it is tappety the cam, followers and rockers will all be worn out

[@paulwaites6551]

I built P6 standard 3522 10.5 to 1 pistons fast road cam ported heads 4 barrel holley 16 port inlet manifold 4 into 1 exhaust manifolds in my MG Roadster and produced 170bhp at the wheels @ 6000 And still very torquey at low revs. but i did use the felpro head gaskets so probably lowered compression ratio.

[@PenguinMotors]

170 at the wheels isn’t much different to the 203 I measured at the flywheel

[@paulwaites6551]

@PenguinMotors considering I built this back in 1984 on my my mum's kitchen table I don't think I did to bad.

[@johngibson3837]

​@@paulwaites6551a 16 port inlet manifold ?

[@paulwaites6551]

@@johngibson3837 Hi John It's a JWR offenhauser manifold, Each port is divided into two one for primary and one for secondary barrels so equalling 16 ports.

[@kevinmartin9432]

Excellent video!

[@johnmurray7682]

Closer than it looks. The SUs have the edge up to 4k, and quite a handy lead from 2500 to 3500. I think in real world street use - especially with an auto - the SUs would probably be a little quicker. By the time the 4bbl got to 4k it would be behind the SU car and would need some distance for the top end advantage to get it back out in front.

[@julianwinn4502]

I wonder what these ran on in the original Buick cars? 2 barrel?

[@PenguinMotors]

two barrel, ive actually got an origonal Buick manifold which i have just redrilled to take a 38 dgas weber

[@jimeditorial]

Yes.I have a Rochester 2GC on a Buick intake on my TR8

[@ldnwholesale8552]

Baby 2bbl.

[@kathysarmcandy1992]

2bbl, 4bbl, and turbo. Depending on whether it was Buick, Olds or Pontiac.

[@User-wollswoycegawage]

I've got a series 2 1960 swb Land rover That I fitted a 3.5 think it was range rover/ defender spec engine on carbs I changed to SU from Stromberg's It went ok but I blew it up Now I'm going 3.9 injection engine I'm fitting inlet and carbs off my 3.5 I've bought from RPI a fast road cam BP270 I wash thinking torque Max But they Said for my mostly road use Fast road be fine Su are on standard needles They will need changing Last engine think was about 135 3.9 fast cam on su carbs What power do you think it will make And any suggestions please Cam's not fitted yet

[@PenguinMotors]

3.9 with a mild cam and su’s you should see something like 170/180bhp and 240lbft

[@User-wollswoycegawage]

@PenguinMotors thanks for your reply so fast road do you consider that as a mild cam? And 170/180 expected with cam I'm fitting or the standard cam it came with

[@kenjohnson6338]

1988 , HIF6 SUs .. knife edged the butterflies and removed half the pinion .. and mounted with allen dome heads.....gas flowed internal a bit , machined radius the pistons... changed jetting . spring .oil.and had some other air work done inside on fuel and air balancing .. Mounted to standard 3.5...low milage..40k with polished balanced chambers in heads.. , ..with tube exhaust...and a mild cam...., shit , i still had old rope seal on crank..lol...... pulled , after fettling , all the way to 210@ 5800rpm .. great thing was , if you drove like Miss Daisy.... you could get some great mpg..... Had plans to do a twin 2 inch SU conversion , from old J@@@g.. never got round to it... i always wonder how that would of worked out.

[@marcverspecht5689]

Hi Graham sorry to bother you but I have a question. I have a SD 1 Vitesse engine running in my p6 . With the su hif6 carbs. I think I have the bac needles in it. What would you recommend for this engine. Thank you very much for your experience and great videos . Kind regards Marc.

[@PenguinMotors]

comparing BAF i used and BAC, BAF is quite a bit richer in the midrange and at lower rpm but leaner at the top end

[@marcverspecht5689]

❤ thank you very much for your answer. Greetings from Belgium, have a nice end of the year.

[@deanstevenson6527]

It wanted to rev out because the last test had a carburetor with no air cleaner. The blank flow without air cleaner on the HIF 6 according to David Vizard flows 245 cfm each, or 490 cfm, same as the HD8 SUs. The stock intake and SU's are good ones. Your stock P6 intake wasn't clear of all it's shackles. Rover Really knew what they were doing.The huge, fat torque curve proves that the SUs deliver the goods where the engine is used most. Thus is why Ford copied the SU with the Variable Venturi 7200 Motorcraft 2 barrel carb in 1978 to 1991. Because Police 351's carried those carbs for 10 long years on 164, 172 and 190 hp High Output Windsor engines. Skinner Union, the carbs Americans Envy 🥝✔️✊

[@PenguinMotors]

I did say I ran the 4 barrel with and without the air filter it made no difference to power

[@deanstevenson6527]

Yes, you did. However, an SU has a hard edge that the giant 5-1/8" Edelbrock doesn't have. The first test had the full intake fairing, then one without it. . The SU HIF6 still flows almost the same CFM as the two 500 Edelbrock tests. They have a huge surface area. The SU just has a 45 mm hole bare, and then it's merged one 3-1/8" access hole with a sharp ridge, without the fairing. Each SU has no bell mouths or stub stacks. IMHO, that's the flow loss, not the two Carbs themselves.

[@PenguinMotors]

Your right about a hard edge, but the 500 isnt without its obstructions, the aux vents (boosters in USA speak) and the flap in the secondaries. Theory aside, however a power loss does or does not occur, I only replicated what peope actually fit. Point to note here is almost all of my V8 customers drive Rover P6's, they like factory airfilters etc

[@ataxpayer723]

An interesting video, however a better comparison is to switch out the carbs using the same inlet manifolds.

[@PenguinMotors]

That would be interesting but it’s something few people would be able to do, I like to test things that are commonly done

[@deanbryan3034]

Thanks for the video, that is a big old chunk of driveability the su carbs have over the 4 barrel "as tested" 200 and a bit horsepower would of been a good street engine hp not so long ago.

[@PenguinMotors]

"as tested" the jetting in the 4 barrel might of left a very small amount of power low down in the rev range on the table, but it really woulnt of been much

[@cbobscountrybunker2312]

Someone needs to make a ir intake for v8s for those carbs . 8 carbs long runners, big torque.

[@PenguinMotors]

I agree long runner IR setup should increase torque and horsepower considerably. They are available at huge cost

[@ldnwholesale8552]

An engine I have had little to do with,,, the tiny ports dont do much for them. 4,4s [P38] were a little better but still far from good. For us in Oz you buy 173 Holden pistons in sets of 8! Far cheaper. From what I have seen the simple way to go which is NOT SUs is a 465 Holley. Though if sorted the Edelbrock 500 may be better. Seen a 4.4 with a 600 which seemed to go quite well. In a P38. Cam headers, intake and carby and a new performance coil. [it would not rev until that was fitted though the old one was 40 odd years old. And Lucas!] The P38 had a WW Stromberg factory. An econo carb used on Holden 6s and 253 Holden and a few 302 Fords I once owner an SD1 and hated it. As a used car! There is a few in race cars,, obviously modified and are supposedly 500hp!! That left half of them home! As for SUs,, I have used those [1 3/4] by 3 on Holden 6s and a slant 6 Valiant. Very hard to find parts for these days. The good ones are early Austin 1800 with floating needles. Or 2" Jag which are a pain BUT when working make good power. 2 similar Historic Tourer Toranas the one on SUs made a little more than the one on Webers. Webers however are more driveable in a race car.

[@paulriggers1558]

thankyou

[@hotrodchris805]

Isnt a 500 Edebrock too big a carb for an RV8? Edelbrock make a 390.

[@PecanRanch]

It’s a vacuum secondary, so the engine will only take what it wants.

[@PenguinMotors]

All I can say is the 500 is the one Weber officially import for the RV8 and it’s what most of the Rover specialists recommend

[@pauljohnson7may]

Great video again, its a good job the heads are a little restrictive with the cast crank and rods, I bet they make a loud bang when they let go.

[@stianjohn]

so, is 300+ hp hard to do on these engines ?. would be fun to put in a boat because of the weight. but need a bit more hp

[@PenguinMotors]

300 bhp is a fairly big ask from a Rover V8, in 3.5 form that is a full race engine. Make the engine bigger it becomes easier, although still not a walk in the park, bigger capacity increases torque a lot, but it cuts down the engines ability to rev, so you end up with torque monsters but still no real power

[@deanbryan3034]

The thing to remember is a 3.5 is only about 210 cubic inch.

[@sidecarbod1441]

@@PenguinMotors I've built a few road going 4.6 engines, i.e. they still need to idle well and pull from low RPM, the last one I built (running a re-calibrated 500 carb) pushed out 315 BHP.

[@tiitsaul9036]

Cheers

[@andypdq]

It's strange, all the performance guys in the US go for Holleys on their V8s, Edelbrock is a good daily driver carb, but nothing special. In the UK it seems to be Edelbrock is the performance 4 barrel to have, I suspect persuading UK buyers that Edelbrock carbs are the best 4 barrel is down to marketing.

[@christmas2943]

balistic in a lightweight car you say? interesting

[@PenguinMotors]

All things are relative but in a 500 kg kit car a 4 pot that makes 200bhp up round 7500rpm feels fast, similar power down at 6000 coupled with V8 torque low down will feel a lot faster

[@guidorollard2944]

Su carbs aint so bad. Like a motorcycle carb as i see it. maybe i am wrong

[@PenguinMotors]

your not wrong they are the same CV (constant velocity) design as bikes, only differnce is bikes use a lightweight slide and diagrpagm and Su uses a heavy piston, and a stromberg carb is somewhere inbetween

[@devimead750]

For every day driving the SU's blows the Edelbrock away.

[@ronnieboucherthecrystalcraftsm]

i had 1 of these spent big dollars = got 235 bhp @6,500 = got rid of everything = GOT A SUBARU TURBO = 280 bhp = easy - next step 365 bhp bigger turbo = better fuel ! = love me english sports cars = 50 years = moved on now !

[@stevefuller1779]

Lets see, a nice powerful V8 or a very powerful Subaru that sounds like a tug boat and will cost thousands to tune/rebuild..I'll take the V8