Elden Ring: Sorceries vs. Incantations - The Ultimate Debate

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Both types of magic have received their own criticisms and compliments, and building in either direction allows you multiple options that feel like cheating at times. Elden Ring also has a more nuanced magic system than other "souls" iterations. Some sorceries use faith, sone incantations use intelligence, and a few even scale from physical stats. But is there an objective answer to the question of which half of the system is "better"?
The game's been around for almost two years. It's time to settle the debate.
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⏱️ - - - TIMESTAMPS - - - ⏱️
00:00 - Begin!
02:03 - The Purpose of Magic
07:10 - Strongest Classes
11:01 - Weakest Classes
13:16 - The Benefits (Sorceries)
16:25 - The Benefits (Incantations)
21:07 - The Disadvantages (Sorceries)
23:16 - The Disadvantages (Incantations)
28:19 - Spell Chaining
30:49 - Miscellaneous Benefits
#eldenring

[@Rusty._]

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[@themasterzacster8756]

If I had a nickel for every time someone got sponsored by nord I’d be rich. Like seriously NO ONE CARES

[@LeGabrielMan]

Sorcerers and Incant users after charging a spell for 10 minutes and doing 300 damage:

[@808_shlumpjune]

Yo is that fit actually in the game what fits are u using in this vid

[@kylen9954]

Did Nord give you the script? They love to say they keep your information private to the companies you have to go through to get to nord servers. Because logix

[@Gentapi5]

I watched Vaati. Iron Pinapple. And V4. Rusty. Now I'm soulsborn-🎉

[@trice286]

Sorceries: Throw blue rock, throw bigger blue rock, throw very big blue rock, summon blue sword Incantations: Shit out fire, cure cancer, summon God, acquire uncle's belt, call orbital strike

[@laserduck6149]

Incantations can literally channel the power of death in two different ways lmao

[@jacksonscott3667]

>Shit out fire, cute cancer, acquire uncle’s belt, call orbital strike Don’t forget such classics as: *cause* cancer, magic arson, become Wolverine, masochist god’s blood explosion, and the mental illness ray

[@user-ox7ob6fm7e]

This "orbital strike" does 10 damage per and it's the worst damage type.

[@Emeowy]

wait which one is wolverine @@jacksonscott3667

[@Necromancist]

Also sorceries: anime sword beams, inhaling mercury on a saturday night, dentist appointment, summon angry ghosts, summon ghosts so angry they won't stop exploding, kill the dinosaurs, Judge Judy

[@RanPizza]

I always hated that they only give you the bulk of holy incantations towards endgame, where like every boss takes like nothing from them. It was a tad disappointing.

[@dianheart2243]

hopefully the dlc bosses dont have ridiculous resistance to holy damage.

[@jerseygrace]

Just wait till Godwyn dlc when all the enemies are death-themed and get fucked in the ass by holy dmg

[@danknado97]

not if u use the special ability of gideons spear staff

[@carljohan9265]

Holy damage actually works great against most things outside of boss fights. If you only count normal enemies there aren't that many who resist it, and it's effective against irritating things like death birds and albernorics. Plus, it's usefulness against the skeletons in Farum Azula is often overlooked.

[@artemsheen8064]

​@dianheart2243 i mean, the shadow of the erdtree is about death no? Holy is gonna be biblical in the dlc

[@gemgem396]

It annoys me to no end that the ERDTREE seal does not boost Erdtree incantations.

[@garmarrod]

I know! Gives me a bad case of ocd

[@rushbiskit]

damn what that's stupid as hell lol

[@joshlong6733]

Bro same here

[@LAK_770]

It would be so good too. The Crucibles are fun to use, and Black Blade with an extra buff would be hilarious. We don't talk about Elden Stars

[@azier67]

The lack of substantial armor choices for each type sort of hurts when looking at the Snow Witch hat and the Crucible Knight armor. Imagine if the Carian Knight armor provided a boost to Carian Sorceries or the Fire Monk set boosted (or even improved the casting speed of) Fire Monk Incantations. An extra bit of interaction with building around your preferred school beyond which staff/seal you used.

[@christianpecina8443]

No I feel like this is worse and makes you feel locked into certain armor pieces for max damage. Armor should be either be about resistances or cosmetics. It genuinely feels bad feeling like I’m losing out my not having the soul boosting armor on the whole game or either learning to swap every single piece by heart after every boss fight.

[@YP831]

Honestly Elden Ring has the WORST selection of drip in all from catalog, here’s knight gold, knight but fire, decrepit knight, just reskins.

[@DanielFerreira-ez8qd]

​@@YP831 It's far better than all of the first souls. Bloodborne and DS3 are the only real contenders. I swear, people fall in love with one or two armor sets in the old ones and just forget how horribly ugly most of the sets used to be.

[@michaelbarker6732]

Nah this would ruin fashion. I don’t want to feel like I am missing out by not using exactly what armour the devs told me to use. It also just makes you feel like your build isn’t even an idea you came up with and instead it’s just a preset you chose.

[@TheMasterblah]

​@@DanielFerreira-ez8qdbro for real. Elden Ring has some of the drippiest starting armors.

[@theauditor3224]

Magic vs magic

[@ghostly5.096]

Blue stuff vs everything else

[@Raine_Sakan]

Throwing meth vs random bullshit

[@melonking281]

​@@Raine_SakanMeth vs yellow piss,rocks,fire,red fire,black fire,bad breath,chomp etc.

[@Dirnaldmabin354]

Britain universities vs gang fights and bodybuilders

[@thecelesteial5918]

Nah mortal magic vs God magic specifically

[@knightgabriel1311]

Incantations are generally more versatile, providing you with more elemental damage options and special uses/functions along with multiple buff spells, while sorceries seem to be better for raw damage

[@rowleyryan9025]

Best take

[@tobisans8989]

I think that sorcery is just consistent because if the range and the easier tracking while incantations are more interesting but have a large amount of gimmicks

[@eamonmcandrews7707]

I can't help but take 18 faith on every single sorcerer just for the extra versatility of magma sorceries

[@themuffinprincesa21]

I would agree besides end game. Given that the best damaging incantations are fire based puts it above later on due to fire being the most buffable elemental damage in the game. However, you could pick any magic spell & deal good damage where incantations usually require a bit more set up. So overall I agree

[@ghotiphoti]

i think the biggest difference beside flexibility is that sorceries sacrifice literally everything for consistency. the one sorcery build i tried fell apart the moment i tried to stray away from sorcery and toss Onyx Lord's Greatsword into the fray, but incants are flexible enough that even with the fucked up arc/dex/faith stat spread i have now i can comfortably perform with a pretty decent variety of weapons and spells. ig it helps that dragon communion seal has the objectively highest incant scaling though LMAO

[@Ahrpigi]

The thing that really holds back both magic systems is the clunky menu that has persisted since Demon's Souls. Needing to D-Pad Up through all your options to find the right one is a huge pain outside of combat, let alone during a boss fight. It basically limits you to two or three equipped spells at a time for practicality.

[@Grande79]

Same goes for quick items, I can’t tell you how many times I died scrolling for my heal flask, healing should have a dedicated button

[@Ahrpigi]

@@Grande79 at least they added it where you can hold down, and it will jump to the flask. There's still a delay though.

[@Grande79]

@@Ahrpigi 😳, just started playing again and didn’t realize that. Thank you 🙏

[@Ahrpigi]

@@Grande79 I think DS3 added it, so it's relatively new. Easy thing to forget!

[@tahaelhour690]

skill issue honestly

[@Nikothegreatish]

I don't know if anyone already pointed this out but I enjoyed the transitioning throughout this one. Going between map locations as you go across your points was a nice touch and some of it matched up rather well by curving back to raya lucaria when going to discuss sorcery disadvantages. Your video quality is really good rusty and I've enjoyed this one especially

[@ike2783]

Now that you mention it, I really enjoyed that as well!

[@kuuja4345]

the real magic fr

[@metalurgent]

The biggest thing when arguing between the two for me is presentation. I feel like a lot of the incantations are way cooler in both function and animation. Sorceries are mostly just "fling different flavors of space rocks at people" with a little bit of nuance thrown in. Meanwhile incantations have things like Dragon Maw/Claw, Malekith's Black Blade, Placidusax's Ruin, and many more fancy and visually entertaining magics. I should mention that the nuance in sorceries I'm talking about is mostly the summon weapon and gravity magics, cause damn those are cool as hell

[@zaferoph]

As with many things in life, flashy things are usually less practical. Malekith's Black Blade is very easy to read, Placi's Ruin looks cool but is harder to land, far more telegraphed and easier to punish if you know how to than the other dragon breaths. Maw and Claw are the same except even worse. The best Incantations from a practical perspective is Lightning and Holy because they are no nonsense. Just like sorceries.

[@metalurgent]

@sakerift7707 I do not play pvp at all so the viability of the flashy stuff in pvp does not matter to me in the slightest, but if I did play pvp you'd be correct

[@zaferoph]

@@metalurgent That's fair enough then. I use some pretty flashy incants on my highest level which is pretty fun.

[@zaferoph]

@@onyxeyes734 an idea is definitely to do a half caster then. A lot of Int weapons have some really cool and unique features and AoWs. A mage knight or spellsword of some kind, use spells for ranged attacks to harass enemies such as Loretta's bow, the magma spells or cannon of heima and spells like Fia's mist to deal lots of damage to enemies as they approach letting you finish them off with one of the faster bolt spells or a melee attack.

[@RemingtonSteel]

​@@zaferophThats what i ran first playthrough. Wing of Astel and Darkmoon GS and staff in my offhand. It was very fun but swapped to something else around level 100. Then back at 160

[@antarescypher2551]

Honestly the main thing holding back both classes is the lack of different casting tools IMO. If the DLC brings some DS2 esc times like the sanctum shield, blueflame, mace of the insolent ETC then it will really open things up.

[@ArantyrDarkhand]

Thats something i really miss... i hope they give us in the DLC. A good sword for carrian. A fist for bestial etc.

[@davidhong1934]

​@@ArantyrDarkhand Imagine if "I cast fist" was not only possible but situationally optimal

[@jankbunky4279]

You can already equip a whole 6 tools at a time. It's easy to just switch from staff to shield and back, on top of plenty of shields and weapons having projectile/utility skills already.

[@antarescypher2551]

@@jankbunky4279 You could equip 6 weapons from DS2 onwards, that didnt make hybrid catalysts any less fun or interesting for builds. A good example is the Hazel pick in DS3, which can r1 combo into a farron greatsword cast iirc.

[@jankbunky4279]

@@antarescypher2551 I know, I've played all these games pretty extensively. However, there not being dual function catalysts isn't holding the spell classes back. Spells have basically never been more varied or powerful.

[@RamixTheRed]

The answer is obvious: If I'm playing an Int build then sorcery is underpowered and needs a serious buff to keep up with incantations, and if I'm playing a Faith build then Incantations suck and can't keep up with the damage of Sorceries and Fromsoft needs to buff them

[@angeloholmess]

Wtf are you talking about

[@ZoeBateman]

As someone who primarily plays strength builds, this was very informative. I honestly thought the general rule was "sorceries for damage, incants for buffs"

[@conorwasson4727]

In previous games that's *mostly* been the case, though you can do insane damage w faith in ds1, and there's plenty to be said about each tree in ds2 and 3. imo, they pretty well nailed the magic in this game.

[@SolaScientia]

Same. My preferred build is a quality build with a slight leaning toward dex, but I've been considering trying out a magic build. I did a little bit as an Astrologer, but I honestly was a bit bored and I didn't even play too far in beyond just running to snag the first map piece for Limgrave. I'm considering starting another character to try out a faith build just to see. I definitely remember how incantations were primarily for buffs in the other games. A big difference is them putting in the pyromancies together with the incantations instead of requiring us to hunt down a pyromancer. I've been looking through all the assorted stuff I've gathered in my main character and most of the stuff I want to try out falls into the incantation category. Thankfully with them putting the equip load in with stamina, which I always keep consistently high, I'm happy that I can dump on proper armor for protection instead of running around in some robes or something without much physical defense.

[@shhinobii]

@@SolaScientia I've played pure STR build when the game came out. It was a nightmare. My first playthrough of any Souls game was always with STR build, but this was by far the worst. You're sooooo slow and enemies are sooooo fast. Including bosses that are gigantic, which is BS if you ask me. Most of the enemies in the game run away from melee fight and attack you from a distance. It's just frustrating running around like a mad man trying to catch your enemy around the screen. So, I switched to Spell Sword build. I use magic claymore for fair fights, as soon as I see gimmick enemy or boss (and there's a lot of them) I pull out a staff and snipe them to even the odds.

[@SolaScientia]

@@shhinobii I could never do a pure strength build. I need a slightly faster weapon. My quality melee build didn't click for me until after I was well into Liurnia and Caelid. It felt bad until after Limgrave. I did end up making a faith-based build and I'm into Limgrave with her. I feel weak because my stats are all over the place. I do not, as a rule, respec a character. I go in with a specific build and stick to it. Not this time, lol. I'm allowing myself to respec after Rennala. The trouble is needing to put levels into more than just 4 stats now. My first build, which is what I'm going into the DLC with, is one where I leveled up only health, stamina, dex, and and strength. My faith-based character has levels in multiple stats, because I need high enough ones for the Godslayer's Greatsword, which I plan to have as my main weapon with thr Godslayer's Seal as my seal. Already got the seal and I got the talisman to give me 5 levels in faith. Playing around with incantations is actually very fun for me and it's amusing to see what wrecks enemies. I'm clearing evergaols that I ignored on my first character until I was stupidly overleveled for them (in part because I'd legit forgot about them at the time). As an extra challenge with the faith character, I'm trying not to use spirit summons for boss fights. So far I've used them to clear out areas but not for major bosses. Optional field bosses I don't care about and will happily use a spirit for.

[@shhinobii]

@@SolaScientia I'm addicted on bonk and pancake effect 😅

[@zombiekungfumaster]

Most builds will benefit from at least 25 Faith, because utility incants like Golden Vow and Blessing’s Boon are so unconditionally good and versatile. But you don’t really need any Intelligence unless you are building to maximize magic damage (with a couple exceptions like meeting a weapon's stat requirements or Golden Order magic). edit: by utility incantations, I also meant the 60% resistance buffs like Barrier of Gold, Flame Protect Me, and Golden Lightning Fortification. Those 3 spells require 24 Faith and they can stack with Golden Vow.

[@IdToaster]

There's a few edge cases, like if you're big on shields then popping some Int for Scholar's Shield isn't a terrible idea, but yeah generally you either want all the Int or none of it.

[@hornplayerchris]

STR/INT is solid for things like Ruins GS and cold infusing weapons. Niche, but one of my favorite builds.

[@IdToaster]

@@hornplayerchris This is for spells specifically though; not many people put just a few points in Int for basic sorceries, compared to doing the same for Faith for all the useful low-requirement utility incants.

[@a.w_.]

@@hornplayerchrisstr/int was the first real build I tried to put together for Blaidd’s Royal Greatsword, tried to combo the sword’s raw damage + cold damage from the ash of war and cold sorceries like moonblade etc, eventually I found the better version of this build was leaning more heavily into int and replacing the Royal GS with Moonlight GS.

[@grip7777]

Yes golden vow is good, but I'd rather have 55 vigor really early and have my damage stat in the low 50s or high 40s really fast. 25 is a LOT in ng for a buff and an efficient heal when you really want high vigor and some damage as well as endurance and a few points in mind. If faith is doing something else for your build or you are really high level then sure it's useful. You are right about int though, if you discount certain weapons that require int.

[@thatonespoon__777]

This video will be very useful for my level 300+ character where both faith and intelligence are 60 and choices are non-consequential, thank you.

[@wizardpajamas6405]

I would say "get a life", but I'm afraid you'll invade me and kick my ass next time I try to summon help lol

[@thatonespoon__777]

@@wizardpajamas6405I’m not nearly as good at pvp as you think, from Level 130-300 it was basically all farming, which still means I have no life, but I’m just not good at the game

[@ZarChasmOfficial]

​@@thatonespoon__777where exactly did you farm for levels? Asking for a friend

[@thatonespoon__777]

@@ZarChasmOfficialmoghwyn palace, ledge approach road, sacred relic sword

[@Myhaay]

@@thatonespoon__777 not hating or anything, but how is that fun for people? mindlessly grinding and making the game a joke, what is the point?

[@Urthdigger]

My first playthrough was with sorceries, and one notable issue I had with sorceries is that they're far more limited on damage types early on. Especially if you're playing blind and don't know that sprinting into Caelid for Rock Sling is a thing, you're stuck doing only magic damage until after Raya Lucaria, which is great right up until things resist it. Heck even once you have it the game has taught you up to this point that even the physical looking crystal spells are magic damage. Meanwhile incantations have early access to literally every damage type before entering Stormveil. I know it's something that doesn't come up THAT often, but certain things felt downright immune and even once you know of sorceries that do fire or physical this REALLY limits your spell options.

[@thesacredbeast2000]

I think the idea with making sorceries wildly overpriced in terms of level was that players are meant to use glintstone crowns and play like a mage mage instead of a magic knight like every souls player ever has always done because why wouldn't I run a magic straight sword its basically free

[@Battleguild]

That would be great except pure casters have some of the worst supporting mechanics in the game. They handled the spells well, but everything else... Instead of giving Catalysts access to the spell-like Ash of Wars, replacing the weak R2 Bonk for a free Cantrip spell, or ways of recovery FP more easily outside of carrying greatswords to recover it; FROM just chooses to bury Casters in gear solely for fluffing up damage numbers. It also doesn't help that the Glintstone Crowns are complete fashion disasters, causing most to be only worn for exploits or the memes, rather than their intended purpose.

[@christianpecina8443]

⁠@@Battleguild im sure the more intended mechanic is to have a main hand weapon and the staff is off hand. Giving you access to your weapons Ash of war which in most cases is a spell in itself. Although I will say the glintstone crowns are awful.

[@Battleguild]

@@christianpecina8443 I recognize that From has made a decision towards "Spellblades", but given that it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it. They could've easily made Catalyst Weapons to fulfill the same goal or made an Ash of War that turned a weapon into a Catalyst if that was their intention. Instead they chose to shaft Bows, Crossbows, Greatbows, Ballistas, Seals, and Staves out of the massive Ash of War option pool, only being offered scraps in consolation and many of the available options are borderline useless. Another part of this decision on their part that I dislike is that in every previous Soulsborne game I used the Catalyst in the main hand, so all of a sudden being coerced to use Catalysts in the offhand really mucks with my muscle memory.

[@berserker5551]

Hard as hell to use a pure mage build tho- you would need really high stats just to go from one bonfire to the next without running out of mana-I think itd be more possible if FP naturally restored itself at a very slow rate

[@morbidcorvid9294]

@@berserker5551 Carian slicer exists and is better than most magic weapons. It's definitely not hard as hell, only challenging in dungeons when you don't get refills.

[@zbou23]

I think part of the reason sorceries are so expensive in terms of level is that they generally have better range; they'd be too stronk if you weren't forced into being a bit of a glass cannon by sending all ur lvls in INT

[@FilthyNobeard]

That's not really true though is the thing. Most incantations can go comparably as far.

[@Mare_Man]

​@FilthyNobeard I can't think of a single incantation that goes as far as Rock Sling or Loretta's bow

[@skullknight8607]

@@Mare_Man Lightning Spear, Ancient Dragon Lightning Strike, Giants Flame Take thee all have very good range, not as insane as Loretta's bow but still very good

[@Khezu_in_the_mountain]

Also the frenzied laser@@Mare_Man

[@zbou23]

@@FilthyNobeard def not "most" there's like a couple

[@bloodhayze]

Before starting vid imo I feel like Incantations are better overall for multiple situations (fire for shit that burns, lightning for shit that zaps), just feels more versatile to me. Sorceries are cool too!

[@CVHFitness]

They're also cooler imo

[@bloodhayze]

@@CVHFitness Red. Lightning. Swords. Need i say more?

[@bobertastic6541]

@@CVHFitness yeah all the good sorceries are just 'blue magic, blue magic but big, blue magic but smaller, etc etc.

[@royalswordsman4523]

​@@bobertastic6541can't forget purple ball, or purple rock

[@jamesreilly5905]

@@bloodhayze Do you mean Lanseax's glaive ?

[@vengeful_asura1382]

I always enjoy doing spellblade builds in the Soulsborne series, Ds3 was my first souls game, and the sword magic in that was really fun so when elden ring came out i immediately defaulted to my spellblade roots and loved mixing the carian spells with the glintblade spells.

[@justinkroboth360]

This is kind of random, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your usage of the Castlevania: SotN soundtrack all over your vids - one of the best ever made.

[@jarreththomson4535]

in regards to sorceries being better in melee, i do agree and something i am really hoping for is that given that we have a pretty high chance of the DLC having a lot to do with miquella i hope we get access to melee faith incantations, things similar to the spells margott casts. i know these would just be rebranded carian spells, but i want it

[@BorrasitoTakaTaka]

I want it too! I cast HOLY GIANT CRUSHER 🔨

[@jankbunky4279]

Eh, we already have a couple, and it's probably better for the two spell types to have some big differences in functionality.

[@jarreththomson4535]

exactly! especially cos faith already goes so well with str. which is probably the other reason faith is better i just realised. sorcs pair naturally with int. faith goes with str. and str is king. but imagine a str/faith character who can just quick pull out a hammer or spear@@BorrasitoTakaTaka

[@danieldaw1778]

Only one I like for melee really is golden wrath, and that's not even really melee. Every other melee range Incantation takes too long and is horrifically slow. Golden wrath does pretty decent damage and is a good get off me option, but it costs a bunch of FP. Like, a lot of FP.

[@jankbunky4279]

@@danieldaw1778 bro never heard of catch flame, o, flame, noble presence, AotC tail or AotC horn.

[@violetbliss4399]

I love the fact that invocations can use a weightless tool, whereas sorcery can't. I visually enjoy the colouring of sorceries, but the variety of incantations is way better.

[@SonicChannel4]

The that little bit of weight saving does allow Faith Builds to have heavier weapons or armor to compensate. Another nice difference

[@Chryseos]

I want to thank you for all your videos. Your voice and humor are wonderful to listen to and whenever things seem heavy and the day was awful I love to watch your videos again and laugh about your jokes and humor. Please keep on with your Elden Ring work, you are amazing!

[@janpiorko3809]

tip starting invocation builds: Flame of Frenzy is very good early invocation: it's cheap, cost effective, does good damage (it can either kill entire groups of enemies or stagger larger foes) and can be grabbed early in the Weeping Peninsula.

[@fabiourbano6404]

Pretty solid for taking out big squids.

[@ForeverLaxx]

@@fabiourbano6404 Just charge up a heavy attack on their beak and proceed to stunlock them after doing the critical, just like the giants that lack leg protection. No fancy steps required.

[@fabiourbano6404]

@@ForeverLaxx thanks

[@asdergold1]

​@@ForeverLaxx The bigger the weapon the better.

[@MonstertruckBadass]

Breaks poise easily as well

[@trexwithlasereyes9524]

absolutely phenomenal editing you've outdone yourself with this one this video goes so hard

[@LonesomeKrow]

Hey Rusty, thank you for working so hard on this video. I’m really enjoying the knowledge I’m absorbing from your ramblings👍🏻

[@lHAZ4RD]

Love this. Been waiting for more of your content so badly

[@pyritepanx]

I love the transitions on this, you clearly put in the work on this one(as always)!🎉💪💪

[@hallohaun4097]

Rusty is the only person BY FAR, to go to when it comes to elden ring or anything souls related. I appreciate your work Rusty.

[@weskintime4177]

He downplays Straightswords though. Square-Off is top tier.

[@KimJongPhil]

Try craightt. He's also amazing at this stuff. He's also a HUGE number nerd(love rusty too though, better story telling aspect to his videos)

[@hallohaun4097]

@@weskintime4177 I don't use straight swords, I use mohgs spear pretty much every run.

[@ForeverLaxx]

Personally I think Rusty is overrated. He has a very real problem with his "my opinion is the only correct opinion" mentality and his insistence on modding the hell out of Elden Ring can warp his viewpoint very significantly. He'll insist that he doesn't have the aforementioned problem but it's pretty blatant and he'll just call you stupid for noticing it.

[@hallohaun4097]

@ForeverLaxx well aren't you the Negative Nancy.

[@8ighty_6ix16]

note: the man serpents in volcano mannor are 100% resistant to fire damage. but the black flame incantations still do tick damage to them.

[@SolaScientia]

Same as with the assorted fire demons in Dark Souls 3. Old Demon King is highly resistant to fire and is in a fire heavy area, but any of the black pyromancies will work against him.

[@jackvening2561]

Big rat yeeting the little rat's body at 29:09... the endless bloodshed begat by the Shattering resonates to this day...

[@Nirob615]

A bonus that Great Oracular Bubble, Rock Sling and Stone of Gurranq (mainly the last two tho) get is the fact that their range gets boosted by the talisman that increases the range of bows. This makes Rock Sling in particular amazing because it's new range will literally only be two or three steps behind max lock on range. This makes the spell be the longest range sorcery that has good tracking. In fact it'll have the 4th longest range overall after the two Loretta spells and Great Oracular Bubble assuming you're allowing it to also benefit from the talisman. It's range is literally long enough that it can hit Elden Beast while he's in the air if the rocks start flying off around the same time he starts to fly up. Rock Sling also confuses enemies that are programmed to dodge spells like Melania. This is because the way those enemies are coded makes them dodge as soon as you spawn a projectile, and for most spells (sorcery or incantation) this works fine. However, Rock Sling technically spawns its three projectiles as soon as they are pulled out of the ground, and since their is a bit of a delay between them being pulled out of them ground to when you actually sling the rocks. This will make the ai that controls npc enemies to miss time their dodge thus getting hit by the spell. This is why I think Rock Sling is the best general purpose spell (again sorcery or incantation) in the game from the PvE point of view. Unfortunately the spell just sucks in PvP because everything it's good at the rancor death sorceries can do it just as well (poise damage and tracking) and have the benefit of faster cast times and being able to move while casting them.

[@BorrasitoTakaTaka]

Wait, I thought they patched that you could increase the range of the ROCK with that talisman....

[@Nirob615]

@@BorrasitoTakaTaka did they? I admit it has been a little while since I last played the game (like may or june of this year).

[@BorrasitoTakaTaka]

​@@Nirob615 I didn't test it myself so I'm not sure, I read it on reddit.

[@gabbycal]

Did you know that a specific mage build can cast night comet for 2500 damage. This is without any non passive buffs.

[@tokivikerness8863]

Thanks for adding honking horns into the audio super loud. Was in my machine and I thought a bunch of cars snuck in behind me and I was about to crush them

[@vasheroo]

Whoever you got to do transitions and their effects is doing really well. It's noticably better than earlier videos. Looks great!

[@ciaranartorias264]

I do think a lot of the niche incantation anti (fill in the blank) buffs are worth a single collective spell slot, if you're willing to swap them out depending on what area or boss you're dealing with. Also I still have my personal gripe that buff sorceries and incantations are locked into using a specific stat to buff with, so a faith staff won't scale an int buff with faith.

[@Ashtarte3D]

Personally I'm more of an Incantations person because that variety really matters to me and it just feels better in my eyes. Sorcery often felt more like an unga bunga approach of brute force while I enjoyed using all my utility and status incantations during my multiple playthroughs. Especially fun was Frenzied Flame incants before they got nerfed pretty heavily. Madness chaining was hilarious.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Agree. Fact is, you can usually do Incantations just about as well as sorcery if you just want to throw projectiles at people. You got lightning bolts, fireballs, actual rocks. Almost every sorcery spell is available as a reasonably available incantation, for when you just want to kite someone to death, if at a bit less damage. And then you actually have spells to play the game

[@shadowarrow7373]

After playing both faith and intelligence one thing that can’t be overlooked is that faith is just more fun from being able to plan your boss fights with specific buffs to being able to throw a sun or become a dragon there is always some other interesting way to play it

[@URAsoreloser1]

Hearing the background music from Castlevania: Symphony of the Night during that first section made my day. So many good memories.

[@Holyknight777.O]

Magic must defeat magic. Uncle:Jackie Chan adventures

[@SalKhayer]

AIYAAAH I didn't think to see that deepcut here

[@i8marcus]

Honestly one of the best creators on all of youtube. The quality of your videos is no doubt top tier.

[@warcoder]

Dude, the Rayman music reaaally took me back in time. Great video.

[@Azureskies01]

Loved the SotN music right out of the gate in the background.

[@ForeverLaxx]

The disparity between staves/catalysts and spell boosting is indicative of what I believe to be a design mentality difference between sorceries and incantations. That is to say, sorceries are generally considered to be your weapon replacement while incantations are considered to be your weapon supplement. Now obviously there are builds, spells, and playstyles that can flip this on its head (namely the sorcery weapon buffs and "pure damage" incantations like Dragon Maw) but by and large sorceries are like a Main Hand weapon while Incantations are like an Offhand weapon.

[@ewybean]

this is especially true if you stack staves for their passives i.e. glintstone staff for sword spell boosts in the left hand while casting with lusat for max damage on the right

[@euanokeeffe9652]

If that “magic overhaul” you mentioned is an incantation one, I’m bloody excited. Hope we get some good madness spells

[@Chrisp0394]

Great video, lots of great points made! One thing I figured out for thorn sorceries is you don't have to actual cast with staff of the guilty! Just hold it in your left hand and it will still boost the thorn sorceries! You should use the albinauric staff in your right hand, since it will scale with arcane, therefore allowing you to improve your sorcery damage AND bleed build up! It's the little things like this the fromsoft wanted us to discover, I think

[@jackcola5513]

Very nice video man👌 and the debate in the comments is great aswell because i wanna know if i should continue my dex/faith or change to int honestly i think incantations look cooler 😅

[@DJHLX3]

Incantations are just cooler looking

[@ncrnmcn]

Sorcery is purely for high dmg numbers Incantations are what you use if you want to have fun

[@ivanvoloder8114]

I had fun with both, but sorceries were better in my opinion.

[@maramarques7889]

hello, I loved the video 😁 just a quick question: What are the armor that you're using during the video? a mod? thanks!

[@MrJohnCarrol]

Hearing the Rayman 1 ost in the middle of the video actually gave me severe whiplash. Very underused for youtube videos so good on you Rusty.

[@aidenmclaughlin1076]

Sorceries are awesome in this game but I will always be an incants man. Especially with all of the dope ass dragon lightning

[@ivanvoloder8114]

I personaly prefer fire over lightning. Don't get me wrong, lightning is exepcionaly strong, but most of the Dragon Cult spells have a long casting time and it can be easily interrupted. The only fast casting lightning spell is lightning spear, but you can't allways relly on it.

[@95dubstepfan]

I've noticed that sorceries have more "R1 spam" type spells whereas incantations have more "charged R2" type spells. Obviously, both types have fast spam spells as well as slow nuclear spells, but there's somewhat of a trend there.

[@Craxipst]

I love the video, thanks to take your time to explain and give so many ideas

[@Volvalex]

The extent of your vocabulary is incredible, and listening to you speak is a wonderful experience, thank you.

[@leadfaun]

Sorceries not really having multiple damage types is wild. Magma doesn't count because it's either INT/FTH or pure FTH.

[@zaferoph]

They actually scale with your staff sooo they're pure int if you use an int staff.

[@leadfaun]

@@zaferoph but they aren’t pure INT because they have moderate FTH requirements.

[@zaferoph]

@@leadfaun I don't call a 80/24 str/dex build a quality build but I guess you could do that.

[@leadfaun]

@@zaferoph magic builds have to sacrifice more things for less options. Melee classes start with good STR/DEX, and you get a ton of options from levelling both. Magic classes force you to level FTH and ARC for a handful of spells. Levelling ARC by 10 points is a big ask for one good spell.

[@zaferoph]

@@leadfaun this is exclusively true if you're stuck in the mindset of 120 builds. 137 is the best for PvP and 150-175 is great for co-op. Starting with any class you can easily have 50 in vigor, 35 mind and 25 endurance which is more than enough. It's at most 100 levels which lets you easily do a 150 build for a half caster. Let alone having 20 levels to put in other stats as a pure caster. And you don't need more than 18 Faith for all the magma spells. So again, just like the 80/24 str/dex build I wouldn't call it a split build.

[@akechijubeimitsuhide]

Also: The Faith heirloom is an easy pick-up. The Int heirloom requires a long ass questline, and by the time you get it, you probably don't even need it. I'm currently at 52 int and I only killed one shardbearer + a bunch of random weaker bosses + dragon mom + cheesed a few Caelid field bosses. Add to that roughly 2 hours total of the Bird Farm. And with the Faith heirloom, I can use Poison Mist, Flame, Cleanse Me, Heal, and a couple other useful incantations without any investment.

[@asdergold1]

Also the Scorpion Charm acquisition is the absolute worst one. Fucking what.

[@BigCocoEnergy]

29:14 I’ve never seen the animation of the madness giant rat throwing a rat. How many other things haven’t I seen then?😂😂😂

[@flak125]

You forgot under the chaining spells: swift glinstone pebble. The one where you can jump, dodge, and backstep casting like bestial sling makes it super versatile in PVP.

[@Enraric]

I like that Miracles work well supporting other sources of damage. You can main STR or DEX with a side of FTH and still gain a lot of benefit, since many buffs and cures don't scale. A small side of INT is much less useful; you can use a phalanx or glintblades to support a melee weapon, but the damage of those spells is going to depend on your INT. I end up levelling FTH a little bit on every character I play, whereas I rarely level INT unless I'm going for a dedicated INT build.

[@AutismGaming489]

Sorceries: “Shadow Wizard Money Gang! We love casting spells.🧙‍♂️😎” Incantations: “Legalize Nuclear Bombs!🗣️🔥”

[@southeastbyeast642]

great oracular bubble actually does a great job of obscuring the caster in pvp/invasions, if you cast colllapsing stars afterwards, you can pull them into the bubble for MASSIVE damage

[@toprope_]

These types of comprehensive reviews are the kind of numbers poring I love in souls content. This is much more important info IMO over ranks and tier lists

[@eminkilicaslan8945]

Shadow Wizard Money Gang

[@logankirchhof6148]

Light Lizard Lunar Lurkers

[@bhizzle64]

One point in favor of incantations is that they feel much more integrated into the world. It feels like sorceries have liurnia as the magic area and that’s it. A few small elements here and there like Selia, but it’s never really a narrative focus. Meanwhile faith feels like it gets focused on narratively for the entire second half of the game. And this translates to the fact that many of the big narrative effects all end up in the faith bucket. It feels like every other boss remembrance has an incantation of their big flashy attack. Because of that, I think there’s a cool factor to incantations that sorceries don’t have. Anyways I still prefer sorceries because blue is my favorite color.

[@Morphexxer]

I just have to ask. where did you get the armor set that you use in 24:35? Cus i dont think i have seen it in game before or i have just missed it.

[@capnslapz7902]

I look forward to your videos so much! Came for elden ring have stayed for all of it.

[@rodo1252]

Its gonna sound like a weird comparison but if you've played dnd, functionally and not narratively or aestheticly, sorceries are like warlocks and incantations are like wizards or sorcerers. Most sorceries are based on spammable magic damage output, a lot of sorceries being just a trade off of damage potential vs casting speed. They can even substitute melee weapons, because the gameplay is very similar, but with range. You can still attack consecutively and combo and even react roll inbetweem them. Most incantations however are not like that. Very few incantations can be spam casted like comets or stars or even the slicer can. Incantations instead rely on variety and utility, unlike sorceries, even incantations of the same school are rarely carbon copies but faster. You are most likely to still need a melee weapon, and instead intersperse incantations in between melee combat. I guess thats not how sorcerers work in dnd but you get my meaning. You are a jack of many trades with many possible options vs the warlocks spamming of eldritch blast

[@dotgone]

As far as faith still needing a melee weapon, Unblockable Blade might as well be considered a melee damage incantation in my opinion. Given the cipher fist weapon is available at literally the beginning of the game and doesn't deal with split damage bullshit, and 100% scales on faith means you can entirely ignore str/dex (and it's 0.0 weight), and nearly always breaks stance on mid size stuff. And when you're finally growing tired of the less than stellar tracking/shorter than expected dash range of the weapon art and awful melee range on the weapon itself, you get the codex sword, which by 'unblockable blade' it means 'walls have no meaning' and 'accidentally kill your neighbor in their apartment from your own bathroom while fumbling around with it.' I tried so hard to find a use for Lannseax's glaive, but unblockable blade was just faster and better.

[@blackballsgaming6760]

@@dotgonemagic is better

[@mordredox6055]

Babe come. New Rusty video just dropped (Babe never came. I'm a psychopath)

[@beta4239]

14:54 I would include the Black Blade incantation as a melee-focused incantation, as while it does have a projectile, you'll actually get a lot more damage out of it if you hit the blade instead of just the projectile. Used it in my first playthrough as a Dex/Fth build and it helped out quite a bit.

[@reperfan4]

Since it never got mentioned, just wanna say that Cold sorceries do have a boosting item - Ranni's Hat

[@asdergold1]

You need that for her Moon spell to the the same damage as her mother's.

[@gamingbean6440]

hmmm, Think the only thing im really disagreeing with you on so far is that Death Sorcery is the weakest sorcery group (Fia's mist is indeed useless though) Rancorcall looks like it's meant to do damage but it's not. It's damage AND Poise break. Like a halfway between the two. That thing will shred bosses. The real problem with it is that death sorcery performs better in the late game/ng+. Meteor Sorceries are just a better version of it though. But they suffer against late game enemies with a lot of physical defence.

[@wally-squid7069]

I played around with death sorcery, long cast time but they hit hard PVE wise. Was a fun build

[@weatherman1504]

As someone who has played a hexer for ng+, this is spot on. Ancient Death Rancor does a lot if you spam it. The damage isn't too bad if you go all in with 45/45 to 60/60 int/fth and use Prince of Death staff, and the stagger is pretty great (even if you don't get a stance break, you can still get little micro staggers on enemies that slows them down tremendously). Also, despite how slow it is and the lack of casting poise, Explosive Ghostflame can be pretty strong and tends to knock a lot of enemies down.

[@asdergold1]

The two Rancor sorceries actually track a bit better now so if something tries to speed past them they still hit. It's.not bad at all. Also Explosive Ghostflame is good. Gelmir Staff is trash.

[@EmissaryOfSmeagol]

I'd say that Sorceries (and Hexes) have traditionally been the clear superior magic type for most of the Souls Series. In Elden Ring, the magic types are more balanced than ever. Elden Ring is a game where there isn't anything that isn't 'viable.'

[@universe1225]

Bows

[@EmissaryOfSmeagol]

@@universe1225 incorrect.

[@universe1225]

@@EmissaryOfSmeagol Lol sure... I suppose you could figure a way to optimise the game for a bow only playthrough, but it certainly isn't engaging even if technically 'viable'. Dragon's Dogma is a good example of how to do bows. Even Simon's Bowblade felt more engaging than ER bows.

[@EmissaryOfSmeagol]

@@universe1225 literally Black Bow goes brrr, just like pretty much every other weapon in the game.

[@Samirator]

this is very well edited, love the vid

[@QuestionableObject]

Its so interesting how I can watch two videos about the same topic and be presented with wildly different conclusions

[@joemoe650]

I feel something that wasnt touched on for sorcery is its focus. People bring it up as a limitation but i think its its strength. I never had much fun with pure faith since i felt most incantarions worked in junction with ajother build ie strength faith ect. I think this is also why the requirements are lower. I also feel i had less options for range damage and was hust playing a harder to execute melee buuld due to longer start up and recovery ajimations. I then played on my friends magic build and had a blast. While many spells are wiggle the staff and throw magic each one has a different use. Night comet a jack of all trades bread and butter spell, but longer cast time makes it sub obtimal for agressive melee enemies. If you are fighting a bigger enemy who gives you lots of downtime spirale shard is a great spam tool, ice crag is good for building frost at range, icestorm is a great for high damage and hugh frost buildup. If an enemy likes to get in your face allt you can use foundling stars and mist spells combined with effective kiting to do a lot of damage. So yes a lot of the spells are similar but i found atleast i woukd often be rotstong spells out to acheive the same purpose but in situations with different needs. Where as most incantations i felt where very melee focused or close ranged

[@skullknight8607]

Incants def do not hurt for range if that is what you are looking for, Giantsflame take thee, Madness Sniper, Lightning Spear, Black Flame, Discuss/Triple Rings of Light, Honed Bolt are just off the top of my head combined with ashes like Sacred Blade and Miquella's Rings of Light (Halo Scythe) you have plenty of ranged options to dig into. It's all a matter of finding tailoring the right spells for your setup.

[@SonicSanctuary]

raise up faith brothers, DEUS VULT

[@kierandobbin3089]

DEUS VULT!!!!!

[@lordkosta926]

thanks i really appreciate this videeo - as someone whose first playthrough was pretty strictly non-magic, i do want to go for a magic build on my second playthrough but couldn't decide between the two. The conclusion that i have drawn after watching your video is to do both - a run with sorcery and a run with incantations as they seemingly are different enough in ther gameplay loops to give you a different experience overall. Additionally, after watching your video it feels like incantations are a lot more friendly for gish builds meaning a mostly warrior focused build with a bit of faith investment for various buff and utility magics. In comparison Sorcery seems to be a very all-or-nothing kinda thing. Am I correct in concluding that?

[@lazarozamora3032]

You won me over with the Marble Gallery BGM

[@EJaDav]

Completely random, but does anyone else love the detail in the attack animation for Carian Piercer? It could have easily been just a simple charge-thrust attack animation. But From added that little twist as the Tarnished thrusts and that always makes me giddy as logically it’s a highly deadly technique as it would open the wound sustained severely causing irreparable damage and quicker severe bleeding.

[@alswearengine4867]

Yes

[@keithedwards499]

I'm a simple man, I see faith I level it up. Nothing else to it

[@12fishcake]

My first playthrough was an int/dex build followed by a faith/strength build for my second run. I agree on the early game, especially a first playthrough, the int classes have a much more fluid progression. It definatley helped to already know what I was doing the second time round with faith. Midgame onwards, it's pretty balanced I feel. Honestly, both are amazing in this game and the crossover of several effects for either means you're not inherently weak against a particular enemy by being locked into one element. I did find faith to offer way more flexibility build-wise though. If you want to be a spell flinging sorcerer then obviously sorceries are ideal, but the lower requirements and wider variety of incantations leads to way more options overall. Of course that's not to say sorcery isn't flexible either, but the much higher int requirements on a lot of them does force your stat allocation to some extent. Faith also comes out on top as a supporting stat for a less caster focused build that just wants some heals or buffs. Both are done so well in this game, but I think overall faith is the winner for me. Also dragons. Dragons are cool okay 😂

[@tuckerbird7514]

Engagement! Keep it up dude! I’m glad I found this! Very entertaining!

[@THE_MOONMAN]

I love how for either incant or sorcery, your best spell most if the time is just yeeting big rocks at stuff 😅

[@EllaKarhu]

what's funny is i think stone of gurrang was made for str builds with small faith investment, but it ended up being one of the best spells for pure faith casters

[@ThatGuyOrby]

Having played the game in a litany of ways: Melee only, Strength Melee only, Dex Magic only, All Sorceries Only Incantations Only Dragon Communion Only (besides the first mandatory dragon kill) Hybrid Melee/Sorceries Hybrid Melee/Incants Lightning Only Fire Only Glintstone Only Crucible Incants Only (besides the first mandatory Crucible Knight kill) etc I can firmly say that I bluntly just prefer Incantations. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely think that sorceries are neat and have a lot of flashy, cool, and very useful spells...but I just think incantations have more broad applications and are just more fun. Shooting a comet at someone or a giant space laser of mass destruction is cool and all, but ramming through them with horns you just magically grew on your shoulder and sending them flying over your back is just too funny. And chucking lightning bolts like goddamn ZEUS will never not be awesome.

[@SolaScientia]

I did my first run as a quality melee build with a slight preference for dex (I prefer faster weapons on the whole thanks to Bloodborne), but I've been considering a magic run. I did start an Astrologer character and played her long enough to get the first map piece in Limgrave, but it really didn't grab me like how melee does. I was looking through all the stuff I've gotten with my main character (did the first run and opted not to go into NG+ with it because of the DLC) and most of the things I'd like to try out are incantations. Yeah, I can go to Rennala and respec, but I honestly hate doing that. I'm stubborn and once I decide on a build I keep it and refuse to deviate from it even if I can just change it back again later. While I know the Prophet is likely the most ideal for a faith-based build I honestly hate the starting set, so I'm leaning toward the Confessor. That's especially since I'm leaning toward doing a dex/faith build anyway. The downside is how many different places I need to dump levels at (hp, fp, stamina, dex, and faith). I like that with my melee build I dump levels in just 4 categories (hp, stamina, dex, and strength). I definitely have been way overthinking when it comes to trying out a magic-based build.

[@elbrachoxddd5883]

Thank you for the guide Rusty! If you are feeling tired of making these videos always know you can take a break or do something different, we'll watch you all the same. I know this is cliché but I really think you should keep it in mind.

[@wizardpajamas6405]

My only (and very minor) criticism of this excellent and super-thorough video is that it felt a little too focused into the schools of sorceries (e.g. Carian or cold) and subtypes of incantations (e.g. flame or dragon cult). Mixing and matching within either class is totally viable and often quite worthwhile. But I know that would probably add another 30 mins to the video so I kinda get it, we can all go watch build videos if we want to min-max synergies or whatever.

[@Scoliosistic]

Blue VS Cool shit

[@jasonjordan8376]

Sorcery is a hammer, incantations are a paint brush.

[@WitheringWilly]

I usually go for incantations specifically because I don't like staves, but I just started a spell blade type build and I'm absolutely loving it

[@shyy2103]

I've been waiting for your Lies of P video and you drop this?! >.

[@lmarcii]

I am losing my grip on reality

[@Joebama-lo8ky]

Relatable

[@MieheKnoi]

i live in a cave

[@Gamer_G33k]

Sorcery being a more melee focused class definitely rings true to me lol. Both times i made a sorcery build i ended up grabing a heavy sword (Moonlight and Star Scourge)

[@purplehaze2358]

I'm still not even sure why sorceries and incantations are separate categories. Am I missing something? Because I'm not sure there are any major differences between the two that are apparent outside of actually doing the math like you have.

[@MrSmido1]

I tried making two classes. One of int and one of fai and I had a lot of fun with both. So I went a made a third build that utilized both. Chaincasting is probably the most fun when you build into both int and fai. I did however find cast speed and variety of weapons lacking. So I put a few stats into dex and use azure staff. Ended up with such a versatile build and using a magic buckler for parries and switching between coded sword or some other low Stat weapon . Most fun I've had

[@TheLastGame666]

Incantations wins and by a longshot for me, they just have much more variety and complexity, they don't rely on "shooting a projectile then a bigger one", you have alot of supportive incantations that helps through the whole game, and the offensive incantations have alot of flavour to them aswell. Incantations also look cooler so that's a bonus.

[@CrimsonXenoProduct]

i've never felt so bored and so uninspired as a mage / sorcerer, but as a MAN of the LORD i shall SMITE those who would dare speak HEARSY and try to lead those down a FALSE PATH

[@garmarrod]

Amen

[@Kurai_69420]

17:55 Actually in Dark Souls 3 there was an upgraded twinkling version of the dragon head stone that is basically a demo version of Agheel's Flame.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Yeah The twinkling dragonstone abilities were absolutely prototypes of these. I never found the breath very useful in 3, but the torso one, the big ol dragon claw smash was pretty good

[@midnightjester9542]

Really good video. Love both sides tbh. Have some really dope build potential.