Saber Slash is BUFFED and Sword Rogues are BACK - Season of Discovery

[@SimonizeShow]

Inventor's Focal Sword was missing 11 spellpower in the spreadsheet. It is now just a fraction of a DPS behind Degraded Dire Nail for non-humans and still BIS offhand for Humans. Inventor's Focal Sword new preRaid BIS offhand for all races. YES I checked the weapon you are commenting about. NO it did not make it into the top 10.

[@ennkay1100]

bloodied sword of speed as main hand? not thrash blade?

[@SaraNøkling]

what about Hanzo sword 1.50 speed ? must be better than the daggers for human in off -hand?

[@blvckhxle.666]

@@SaraNøkling no combat potency

[@ennkay1100]

@@blvckhxle.666 its moy about combat potency, its about the ap scaling. Dire nail has 22 ap on it. You still need a fast oh for instant procs but dire nail stats top everything

[@ennkay1100]

Not*

[@davidlewis8142]

Lets gooo thunderfury

[@nightshpee2031]

My exact reaction ahahahahahah

[@janakipejov3667]

Melee hunt prio

[@idkidgaf]

@@janakipejov3667 too fast

[@jacobfernandez813]

@@janakipejov3667 Melee hunters want slower weapon speeds

[@zenbozic6184]

i am tanking with that shit so hard whenever we go back to molten core

[@cameronharris7558]

Great video, amazing as aways. Thanks for all you do for the community

[@ToHonorKnowledge]

Can’t wait for the updated tank guide!

[@Xound_]

You and the 3 other tank rogues 😂

[@EWeazy]

@@Xound_ As one of those 3, can confirm :p lol

[@Era_G]

Lol

[@S0ulFlay3r]

@@EWeazy Rogue tank 3/4 here, where dat guide at?

[@setneubauer3851]

the 4th rogue tank here

[@HGEntertainment]

Any reason why you dont include the blood moon dagger as an off hand alternative?

[@daeris3655]

Maybe a stupid question ^^ but is Trash blade not any good in here ? in prebis ?

[@TheKonkkis]

Usable prebis yea, as BiS it is as the name states > trash

[@Deadlywhite]

Yay! Always loved saber slash. Happy its making a comback. I lovee how swords look.

[@dany91307]

Hey Simon, thank you for the awesome SS guide!! In terms of weapon enchants, with +15agi being bis, would you then recommend Fiery weapon over +4 weapon damage? Or vice versa? For this build.

[@SimonizeShow]

15agi > Fiery > +4dmg

[@2dlamb]

Have you sim'd SnD after one or two sabers? The first point of SnD is the most valuable, in terms of seconds per combo-point.

[@osgrace3341]

i usually just target the boss while the raid kills the last trash mob to start with 5CB :D

[@Kronicle]

Fantastic as always.

[@Zombiatchpwner]

is the offhand fist wep only that high if u also have the mainhand equipped? or is it standalone -1dps from inventor's focal sword?

[@SimonizeShow]

the page with 10 different weapon comparisons does NOT count any set bonus on the claws, just the individual items.

[@brazzledazzle-o9w]

thought i might see thrash blade on that list for preraid

[@philipengstrand2267]

Do you know how much extra the dps from the fist weapon bonus would be?

[@lucbob]

Thanks for the info Simon. I’m looking forward to the situations where mutilate is better. I will still be going for daggers and mutilate since I mostly pvp and I feel like sabre slash will be a meme in pvp. Have a great day!

[@jattmonsoongaming]

Yeah you will never get the full 5 stacks of saber bleed in pvp, and the added combo point from mutilate just can't be beat

[@strv122ksp94]

done it and its actually decent

[@goflux]

How will this change impact rogue tanks?

[@clutterbucking]

Silly question why use Sin Strike and not just Saber Slash all the time to generate CP

[@kris2601]

SO Full combat Sword build still not good? And Hanzo as off hand pre-bis not good?

[@wuwi5833]

What about thrash blade main hand and stv in offhand, and getting down to sword spec in combat for a tank set up?

[@Torgrims_Adventures]

What enchants are we looking at? Of course agility but for budget enchants is fiery or +4 the go to?

[@jattmonsoongaming]

They're both about the same, I think simonize said he favors fiery though. But fiery no longer procs deadly brew or combat potency

[@privateerz]

What about the hookfang shanker? Was that considered or was it removed because its proc clashes with our kit?

[@SimonizeShow]

just didn't make the top 10 thats all. get yourself an inventor's focal sword and vibe

[@privateerz]

@@SimonizeShow done and done, now rocking dragon cry and inventor's focal along with the three piece set. Let's see how much I pump next week!

[@Sappengold]

What about Trash Blade? How does it work as main hand

[@itisSalvador]

i was wondering the same, in my opinion it should be the best Pre-bis for Sword Rogue

[@seanreinholtz2611]

@@itisSalvador pretty sure he knows what he's talking about

[@SimonizeShow]

Not in the top 10

[@itisSalvador]

@@seanreinholtz2611 i'm sure he knows, he has more then enough proof to be trusted, but still, doesn't sit right with me, since trash it's the best sword for fury warrior, and not even top 10 for rogues as Simonize just told us. but checking other phases and also checking normal classic wow, sword rogue and fury warrior always shared the bis/pre-bis loot ( if not orc ), also rogue always sim better with the most slow possible weapon on MH, in this case its being recommended a "fast" weapon for MH. something tells me that the sims are not scaling Saber slash/Sinister strike damage correctly with slow weapons, it should hit a lot more with a 2.7 speed weapon then with a 1.7 speed one ( like 70% more )

[@jonsnow7586]

I guess a logical explanation is warriors always benefit way more from extra attacks than any other class due to the rage mechanic ​so the trash blade/epic fist go way to the front of warrior bis lists whereas for rogues and melee hunters doing most of their damage from yellow attacks and extra white dmg just being a small bonus it's not as great @@itisSalvador

[@ahetzel9054]

Please make an indepth rogue guide for cata. Seeing a lot of rogue videos by other people and the info just seems off. Would really like to know what you have to say about cata rogue rotations and tricks

[@Justjustinp]

Sword Rogue is back lads! Let’s go!

[@greeneyedlunatic7473]

I was using swords like a week ago it’s good white sabre slash and carnage

[@zenbozic6184]

i mean idk, variety is good but daggers are still just more fun/satisfying

[@Nightmare-pj4fg]

Is this build viable/ competing with a standard mut env build if I don’t have any of the temporary attack buffs to snapshot my saber slash?

[@Karma-kc5fh]

What do u think for tanking? Should we go sword deep combat with unfair avdantage, riposte and sword spec to cheap some sword spec proc and early burst with adrenaline? Edit : i guess no unfair bc u lose carnage dmg Edit 2 : After some talent testing, the rota could be to spam saber and SS when full stack with only refreshing when needed bleed and SnD BD when they gonna fall off. Seems a good idea with 3/3 Agression and Adrenaline guarantee the early 5stack without even needing tea

[@chumbucket6184]

There's no way ur gonna keep up blade dance, slice and sice and rupture with a 1 CP builder that costs as much as mutilate

[@Meathole7]

Would want to use refresh rune not carnage

[@Quizlogz]

​@@chumbucket6184he wouldnt need to maintain rupture with a sword build for the carnage buff

[@Karma-kc5fh]

​@@Meathole7i was thinking of deep combat adrenaline with enought point in assa to get 2/3 slice. With that it is doable to keep blade and slice uptime and spamming saber/SS when not refresh needed. U wont really press evicerate anyways since u cannot get Relentless strike for energy refill so just using SS is better

[@Karma-kc5fh]

​​@@chumbucket6184 not rupture needed since we have saber bleed, and also combo point isn't really an issue with HaT since we don't spam evenom like dps rogue, just samming SS and Saber for big boosted dmg + sword proc could be the way. U also use riposte on cd who deals good dmg for a 10 energy proc

[@pitterrrpatterrr9041]

I'm a gambling man. Thrash Blade and 5/5 sword spec here we come baby.

[@Nightmare-pj4fg]

Duel speccing this immediately to try it out!

[@bigbobfox91]

what about hanzo sword? is it viable?

[@洪淼-u8y]

Why no Degraded Dire Nail in the MH list? It's the same DPS as Bloodied Sword of Speed and even more strength and agility for non-hum. I'm really confused...

[@洪淼-u8y]

and the same speed 1.7

[@vail2367]

cause swords are better

[@TrullTV]

Any optimal sword specs for rogue tanks? I assume unfair advantage is awful now for tanks compared to carnage?

[@TrullTV]

Also is inventor's focal good because it's boosting poison damage?

[@Hiebly]

Does anyone know off hand whether the Saber Slash dot continuously ticks, or does refreshing it reset the time until the next tick? i.e. Should I be deliberately waiting until the bleed ticks before refreshing Saber Slash or is it safe to just spam it?

[@giantslug6969]

It's safe to spam, reapplying saber slash doesn't mess with the tick timer.

[@xav_ko7297]

new rogue here, is it better than mutilate? Whats easier? whats more fun to play? is the dps rly the same?

[@Chopep_]

I would say mutilate is still better in general, saber slash pulls ahead slighty in some fights. Both specs are not hard to play, for me mutilate is more fun bc we use daggers and have high burst

[@whostheree]

Thoughts on tanking with swords? Going down the combat tree vs assassination is it a HUGE dps loss?

[@Robbie_Reed]

The reason why you'd go assassination is for the deadly brew procs of deadly poison and instant poison; for tanking, we immediately lose all of that, and the combat tree, while it provides blade flurry, doesn't give anywhere near the dps increases that assassin does. I tried out a build I set up with some other rogues last night, and it really seems like swords for tanking isn't going to be viable. Combat gives us next-to-nothing for tanking, and because of flesh wound taking the same slot as deadly poison, we lose out on the benefits of running a deep assassin + combat build. Between all of this and the fact we need to have uptime on 2-3 finishers at all times... even with rotations locked in, we're not doing nearly as much DPS as we should be between missing key runes and focusing on uptimes. This also screws our already abysmal threat generation compared to other tanks.

[@yoschi314159265]

I follow your vids since P2, great work man. Thx for all your advises. Sub + Thumbs up!

[@merlin8598]

hi, what is with electrocutioners needle from gnoma for pre raid ? its looks pretty close to inventor and white bone. btw thanks for the content

[@merlin8598]

*needle and toxic rev. from gnoma

[@felixs2034]

Needle is trash its MH Only and speed is way too fast

[@merlin8598]

@@felixs2034 oh true sry

[@Askelad87]

I had been thinking about going Saber Slash for a tank build, with these changes I think it'd fare much better, could you share a good talent build for SS tank?

[@MyNameIsNotCraig]

Can saber slash be used with daggers and fist weapons?

[@philondez]

Yeah, just requires a melee weapon like Sinister Strike does, whatever you have will work fine

[@evanm4682]

I think you want something quite slow for your mainhand tho. 2.4 or slower

[@brandonkruse6412]

You going to play rogue in Cataclysm?

[@victorlicata9103]

May as well play retail lol

[@brandonkruse6412]

@@victorlicata9103 Cataclysm is nothing like retail

[@wille9916]

How does new saber sim with combat potency/fa vs hat?

[@SimonizeShow]

poorly

[@antoniopotocki6680]

do we still use sinister strike in our rotation? Is saber slash used only as a buff/debuff refresher?

[@SimonizeShow]

I suggest you check out the rotation section of the video to answer that question!

[@Name-te1nn]

What would a saber slash tank talent build look like?

[@setneubauer3851]

I'm wondering this too. Rogue tanks this phase go rather deep into combat for blade flurry. You pick up relentless strikes ofc in assassination. But if you go with saber build you don't need opportunity anymore and can thus have more points to go for a weapon specialisation in the combat tree. Does this make weapon fist/sword spec viable? Also is aggression and weapon expertise worth it now? Especially if your not human.

[@TheFuchao]

Im pretty sure you need to go combat... You cant use deadly brew rune as tank, so the poison talents become less potent. Wild strikes becomes more potent with a swords tanking spec. Adrenalin rush also helps greatly to apply 5 stacks of the bleed to your target and in a combat swords spec you can talent +21% eviscerate dmg/ 3% saber slash dmg (and bleed dmg?) What i dont know: can the talent sword specialisation trigger from a wild strikes hit?

[@Name-te1nn]

@@TheFuchao my gut says relentless strikes is gonna be better than adrenaline rush

[@muyboy1907]

So why do we use sinister strike tho? i am new sry but why wouldnt we just spam saber slash ? whats the point of putting Sinister into our rotation?

[@ratburgler]

Sinister strike does more dmg than saber slash, so after 5 stacks, Saber is only used to maintain the bleed.

[@jdubrawsky8029]

Any take on tanking w swords?/

[@Gosha2u]

Main hand the STV sword, Dont you want a slow hard hitting main hand typically?

[@RickyCigarillo]

Still using deadly brew and I think speed and poision procs are more important

[@harryhirsch1571]

Thanks to weapon normalisation (AP Bonus is the same for slow and fast weapons) slow weapons can be fine.

[@harryhirsch1571]

I just tested it and I almost don't see a difference in sinister Strike dmg numbers between Legnionairs blade and STV Sword.

[@Gosha2u]

@@harryhirsch1571 Wow okay thanks! Did not know that's how it worked

[@pDPjay]

can confirm Saber with Trash is absured DMG Bloodied in off-hand and normal combat build. dont know whats with the sims.

[@RickyCigarillo]

Why is the focal sword better ranked than daggers w the same speed and better DPS? is 1% spell crit really that valuable?

[@evanm4682]

Humans get +5 to sword skill which is quite powerful.

[@spappy34]

Decided to keep Julie's Dagger because it was BiS all phase. Now these fookers pump saber slash build. FML

[@lukasmischlich1178]

Just bought one for 950, kept it and just equiped and put 15 agi on it befor raid yesterday couple our later this 😮

[@Ciftyfent]

Lol was about to buy one too, thanks IAM too Late now 😂

[@wavysinatra]

@@lukasmischlich1178 @spapp34 i mean its still a great offhand your not grabbing sword specialization anyways

[@cameronharris7558]

That's what sucks about investing in items that are .9 % better than the next best thing.

[@spappy34]

@@cameronharris7558 got it dropped :') and decided to keep it

[@calmcalma3235]

Your discord link doesn't work in the description section @SimonizeShow

[@SimonizeShow]

troubleshooting tips are in the description section also

[@onetyles]

why are faster MH weapons better than e.g. Trashblade for pre bis ? shouldnt a higher top end damage be better ?

[@beefwreath2856]

Poison procs (since fewer mutilates, which is an ability using both weapons instantly)

[@nilocm6365]

I believe since a lot of dmg comes from poison fast weapons are "better" but trash blade is still decent for pre bis and easy to get, other options include WSG sword and the blood moon sword if you have tokens saved up or can start running blood moon again (rip)

[@AnuddaGoy]

No extra swings?

[@taloffy]

Isnt it better to spam saber slash instead of using sinister strike? Can someone explain?

[@RickyCigarillo]

No. You use saber 2 get to 5 stacks. Then use sinister until you need 2 refresh saber bleed. Sinister slash instant dmg is better than saber slash.

[@ToHonorKnowledge]

Looking at logs 3 days later I’d say the sims failed you on thrash Blade calculations

[@TheJazzy7]

How is bloodied sword of speed so strong? 48-89 damage seems so low compared to the other's, yet it's only barely behind Dragon's Call?

[@Chopep_]

Speed scales differently, but keep in mind that these are simulations. You will be fine with both

[@jenstp4489]

Why not Thrash Blade for MH?

[@MyFirstM]

ty simon :)

[@nobreath181818]

We are so back

[@rjoac09]

Not important but at 4:37 you have Bloodied Sword of Speed marked as dropping form BRD

[@frostreaper6077]

What alchemy potion are you talking about?

[@jamespadgett8660]

Mildy irradiated rejuvination potion i assume.

[@vassilie.5883]

Is Trash blade so bad that you dont include it @SimonizeShow

[@getbetter973]

I’m not a believer yet tbh. Not with the blood moon sword….but idk…I do like that it was buffed to the point where it’s the “no brainer” better option. But I think next phase it will be which kinda sucks because it increased the competition for weps. Currently rogues have no competition on weps

[@richritter3437]

Does sin strike do more damage then saberslash? is that why you do the sin strikes instead of saber in the rotation?

[@evanm4682]

Yea that’s correct.

[@montanamuse3617]

You should talk about the changes to tank builds

[@leaveacomment]

we don't do that here

[@sekuna_]

no one cares for a rogue tank anyways

[@Mike_Olee]

I hate saber slash I refuse to play it. I literally just used my Backstab pvp spec in BFD in P1. Is Saber Slash going to out dps dagger rogues?

[@mattlars89]

Remember that they do plan to implement a weapon skill (I think it is 2 different weapon types) Making orc bis for pve in all of Vanilla, Imagine an orc rogue with Gressil, the hungering cold and +5passive sword and dagger skill. Pow

[@jacobfernandez813]

What do you mean they plan to implement a weapon skill?

[@itisSalvador]

@@jacobfernandez813 in phase 4, you will be able to choose 2 types of weapon to give it 5 expertise in any class/race and also you can trade them on the fly, you will be able to have +5 on what you have equipped. they did this to take out the racial advantages so ppl can choose what race they want and have no disadvantage.

[@jacobfernandez813]

@@itisSalvador Oh wow! I really hope this is confirmed! Thanks for keeping me in the loop!

[@tenveri]

@@jacobfernandez813 It's confirmed.

[@SquatsAndOats2plate]

Hanzo Stonks gone up!

[@chiefkeeflover8035]

Its really bad for rogues

[@Tycam]

​@@chiefkeeflover8035 shhh 🤫

[@StevenO4342]

Hookfang Shanker sims quite well as an off hand dagger and is better than some you have listed in the top ten.

[@SimonizeShow]

Not under the conditions I was using for making that comparison.

[@Underground.Rabbit]

Zirene. Can we not Sword, not compete with million different classes on weapons? Can we?? Thanks.

[@nilocm6365]

you can still stay mutilate build my friend

[@MoosePolo]

How does it compare to mutiltate rogue dps?

[@Julez3133]

0:50

[@snadzer1991]

Why no thrash blade as pre raid bis? Like the easiest one to get.

[@snadzer1991]

also whats the reason for using SinStrike over SaberSlash?

[@itisSalvador]

@@snadzer1991 because it does more dmg, it hits harder then saberslash, so if you have 5 stacks of saberslash, there is no point to use it again, only to refresh the stacks to not drop them. Saberslash does 100% weapon dmg, sinister does 100% weapon damage + 52 dmg ( rank 7 lvl 46 )

[@tizoad]

Thrashblade didn’t make the list?

[@Acrylick42]

nooo, i already did the bone quest and i picked the wrong reward.

[@mr.felipiux6392]

Let's go simon

[@whostheree]

YESSSDSSSSS

[@matteocotza9981]

why no trash blade?

[@Gheddylol]

love the thumbnail

[@SaintDeezy]

What about hanzo sword? is it any good?

[@chiefkeeflover8035]

Nope really bad

[@josipcrncic4737]

in phase 2 noone wanted rogues in raids and noone felt sorry for us, now everyone yells rogues are op lol

[@DaFreezeey]

lol been that way since 2004... if you aren't a rogue player, you hate rogues

[@PGnJT]

But is it better than the mutlilate bulid in terms of dps?

[@holoceneevent4534]

I still think rogues will snap back to mutilate daggers/poison procing build. swords just wont have the consistent damage through fights.

[@TheDraakheated]

why does it not have the consistent damage when they both got the exact same cooldowns? Swords dont go combat.

[@holoceneevent4534]

@@TheDraakheated daggers proc poisons more often as it looks now

[@kivistönkotitohtori]

but but when ur a lone rogue in competitive setup ur first 5 combos go to ea

[@Kenji-117]

I wish paladins would get as much love and actual attention to the problems as shamans or rogues. Can't be real that the class has roughly 10 completely dead runes and all we get is some quality of life (appreciate this) and some ducttape fixing by turning seal twisting - an unintended ability exploit - into a feature instead of fixing the Runes and their dynamics. "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" - Blizzard Proverb

[@browniesbytes305]

Currently twisting Seal of command and martyr is completely irrelevant for pve a lot more has to change for it to over take exo spam. Twist isn’t back cause it never went anywhere you just couldnt twist those two seals… it changes nothing. Between Seal of righteousness criting and martyr wanting fast wep prob better to twist Marty and righteousness if no crits for exos. And you could already do that both ways too. Crusader strike buff goes hard tho

[@panis2893]

Meh im going to continue Also ffs simonize i did the quest today and didnt get the first weapon offhand Only thing is if carnage works with saber slash then maybe is better for longer fights but still i like mutilate to much these days

[@tenveri]

of course carnage works with saber slash

[@mghtymrv]

Which bosses in ST are most ideal for Saber Slash?

[@W4lkst4r]

How is Thrash blade not in that MH list what is this scamaz

[@othelo6499]

Thrash Blade????

[@DyDaeB]

starting rotation does not take into seal fate combopoints

[@tommyddurand]

Yes it does you just missed the point of the starting rotation

[@Rinacgolf]

Don’t you just use sabre slash? Why even use sinister strike?

[@jamespadgett8660]

SS does more damage than slash for the energy cost. Use slash until 5 stacks then use it to refresh

[@DumsterDude]

simon forgot to say he is having fun :((( did he stop having fun

[@SimonizeShow]

No I just recorded this video at 2 AM and forgot to say I was having fun

[@tenveri]

@@SimonizeShow are you having fun?

[@ndb1aydc]

So happy I didn’t buy Julie’s dagger

[@dhamongrimwulfe5401]

Someone at blizz plays a rogue and wants TF. 😅

[@SergioSanchez-ig4uj]

WTB Cata guides

[@drizzho]

Well I just spent a month gearing for mutilate gg

[@harrydalgleish8464]

Prefer daggers tbh will be staying with daggers

[@_killserker_7985]

Why not combate focusing on extra swings and bonus damage to swords and sinister strike? Boss wont last long. Also, why such a FAST weapon? slow weapon benefit greatly from saber slash

[@tenveri]

Normalized. Sinister strike and saber slash are normalized attacks

[@chumbucket6184]

Saber slash is such a boring ability and it doesn't fix pvp sword build. They should just delete it and make a rune that makes sinister strike give enhanced casts of quick draw like in retail

[@the_Acaman]

i wish i could like this comment more than once

[@HealthySexDrive]

Yeah that's biggest issue personally. It legit feels better to just go a full pve build in pvp because you do not do any damage in a pvp build. However when you go a pve build you basically can't use gouge or blind because we are forced into this dot playstyle.

[@nilocm6365]

you aren't wrong at all but it is just nice we have another option to play in PVE

[@HealthySexDrive]

@nilocm6365 yeah but this rotation is hanging off you using a thistle tea... and also being in a group that crits a lot. So it's only raid viable.

[@TB-sg5bk]

Saber slash blooooows who finds that build fun?

[@RideRM1313]

Classic andys: i want classic with a twist that has different meta builds *dagger rogue good in classic for once literally ever* NOOOOO WE NEED SWORD ROUGUE REEEE I WANT SWORD ROGUE go fuckin play era then this community sucks so hard. thanks for the guide though simon, might come in handy if rogues end up using THE SAME ROTATION AND WEAPONS THEYVE BEEN USING FOR 20 YEARS

[@drizzho]

I was combat daggers in classic and now being assassantion daggers in SoD is such a breath of fresh air imo after playing it for a couple weeks.

[@nikolayangelov3152]

1/1 VIGOR....5.5 seal of fate for 1/5 lethality hahahahahahah

[@ballsagnlow9527]

No hat videos please.

[@grev.]

yeah, def not worth outside of parsing