Sajam Talks Strategy: Building an Offensive Gameplan, The Frame Data Doesn't Tell the Whole Story

streamed Apr. 13, 2020
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#FGC

[@Jumpingmelonz]

Chatroom sitting there like it's one of their online classes, looking for answer like they're about to take a quiz. This is a screwdriver review right here. "This is a screwdriver. You use it drive screws, with a turning motion. This isn't a hammer, chat. It isn't for nails, you got something else for nails. What if you don't encounter screws? If you don't have screws, you don't need a screwdriver. Easy." Silly twitch chat.

[@Amutsal]

This is some Aris level chat bullying. I love it.

[@SpecialBeam]

I'm glad you addressed it here, because I bet that's sooo ANNOYING: You talking about a CONCEPT, and someone in the chat responding with a specific situation. Its like they weren't even listening. They missed the entire point. C'mon brew.

[@ziggyfreefall2774]

Honestly idk if something is wrong with my brain but I can't seem to mesh this concept to what is going on in my games?

[@AndresLionheart]

The 1 dislike is the dude that said Ferry's DP beats this option.

[@errrick1]

Random Person: BUt FERrY dP beaTS tHAt Sajam: *finds and answer in a minute, stands up and goes from some water* I understand the person maybe didn't mean anything bad about it, but before making an statement like that, is better to just try for yourself to see if it's true or not and then start spreading the info.

[@blueperiodfan4725]

@@RebornOdin some noobs complain about gran boots but dont why it is so good

[@demonkingnobunaga]

in fighting games people who say "but x beats y" will do worse than people who ask "how can I beat x"

[@SoysauceML]

"Sajam: finds and answer in a minute, stands up and goes from some water" Recommend some typo check, unless you mean Sajam finds ferry's DP and answers, and also comes out of some water after standing up.

[@SomeBlackDude26]

This concept is huge in MK and Tekken. It's the cornerstone of my offense as Susanoo in BBCF too.

[@TheBlazefire21]

I see you too are a fellow man of culture as well

[@AntanovOCEFGC]

Alright bois, here's my Susanoo Gameplan, you ready? Run up, Press 6B, and then run my forehead against my pad.

[@SomeBlackDude26]

@@AntanovOCEFGC You forgot to 5b first homie!

[@yuurou7927]

Yes the push distance on block for Susanoo makes this his core idea. In fact a lot of grab characters do offense like this like Pot in GGrev2.

[@AntanovOCEFGC]

@@SomeBlackDude26 Aw fuck! I didn't even 6A round start to get early level 2 special bro! I'm a fake Susan main!

[@jalapenobomber]

Watch sajam trying to teach his people how to fish.... gold

[@cutcc]

A classic example of Logical By the Book Thinking versus Weighted Risk Reward Play that comes from the Heart + Experience. The key is to have a balance of both =).

[@welcometovalhalla2884]

It's unreal how conditioning and mindgames don't even seem to exist in the brains of the people asking Sajam stuff. Like, this is a fighting game channel. How do you even get to a point where you understand frame data and know matchups but haven't ever thought about conditioning your opponent?

[@Eltanin]

because they play against CPU

[@Breeze06]

Idk if it's by design, but since sf4, I've heard that modern fighting games encourage players to learn advanced techniques before they learn fundamentals. I remember Juicebox ranting about how people know how to play their character, but they don't know how to play the game. They know their setups, option selects, what's safe and what isn't. It didn't matter that they had 10+ thousand battle points and 3‐4k player points. Their shortcomings will be made apparent when facing an opponent with an understanding of neutral/ footsies.

[@MH3Raiser]

@@Breeze06 I think a bigger part of it is the constant idea of 'mains'. I main Hazama in Blazblue... but I've also spent at least some time on almost all of the rest of the cast. I understand what stuff of theirs works and what stuff doesn't of course, but far more importantly I understand what tools my main DOESN'T have and what tools EVERY character has. Baiting moves and punishing them, feinting a throw with an empty jump on someone's wakeup, spending a lot of time in the air outside of AA range to bait someone into trying to meet me there in air only to anti air them... the list is incredibly long, but these are things ANY character can do. Some characters have unique ways to do them, or are better or worse at them (for example, faster characters with short normals are great at baiting out moves and punishing the recovery/stuffing the startup, whereas longer ranged characters are better at threatening their long distance buttons and gaining space using them) but fundamentally they all play the same game. But if you only ever play your main, you'll only know what your main can do, and that makes you incredibly predictable. Hazama has no run, but sometimes I will dash block halfway up the screen the same way a Bullet would despite him having incredible aerial mobility to get in. Why? Because otherwise I have to go airbourne to advance, and while this is faster and leads to more options, it makes me far easier to contain if it's ALL I do. It's a fundamental mechanic that a lot of Hazama's don't use because they never played a character that NEEDED to use it. Play the game, not your main.

[@moonmoon2479]

Fighting games aren’t worth it. Fuck this community. People try to learn and this is what they get. Yeah, fighting games really need to die. 95% of gamers don’t even bother with this genre. Years ago, I wondered how that was possible. What about fighting games was so bad. Now I see why.

[@bionicallyacomputer292]

all FACTS @@MH3Raiser

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

I got this a lot in fighting games, but I started getting into card games recently and boy oh boy is this mentality rampant there. I've literally had guys tell me "Well I was about to put this card in my deck that would've specifically stopped what you just tried!" and I ask "How do you know you'd draw it?" and they go "Well it'd only be in my deck to stop that, so of course I'd draw it when I need it!" Completely serious. Like they're Yugi Moto. The even weirder part is when I counter with "Well I would put a card in my deck to stop that card" and they say "Oh well you wouldn't have it in your hand." Aside: It's weird to me that chatroom went to Ferry ex.DP as the go-to out. Unless something's changed since the game came out... Ferry's DP has one of the worst DP hitboxes in the game. For this situation specifically, I think 623B might actually work. Doesn't it start out further in front?

[@hmad898]

I am 2 years late, but the amount of times I've heard "that card isn't actually that good, I can just cast counterspell" is way too high.

[@youyoububu]

This is similar to the “dies to removal” argument in Magic.

[@downward7296]

"Dies to doomblade"

[@PillzaH]

Great video, the way I've always thought of it is that buttons that are minus can be more enticing to the opponent to press something afterwords. In their mind its their turn to do something since the attack they just blocked was minus but the spacing opens them up to all sorts of different counters. Sometimes it even feels like buttons that are a little minus but create some good distance between you and the opponent are better than plus buttons since people usually know not to press anything after blocking something that's plus.

[@SleepTalkRest]

This is something I've had an intuitive idea about with other games I've played more, but struggled to translate into newer games I pick up because I didn't know how to develop these intentionally. Thanks!

[@AkibanaZero]

Great tutorial! There was a clear learning outcome and it's actionable. Love it. Maybe a couple more examples of characters. I was half hoping you would showcase Soritz when you mentioned him. This is the type of content we need, though. Keep it up! I'm off to the lab now.

[@ino579]

This is great! I have good instincts on defence, but I never understoond the relationship between conditioning my opponent and spacing on offense. Moss, get started on the Sajam all-purpose tutorial compendium video!!!! I need it!!!!!!!

[@rick2402]

learn the how and discover the character for yourself. ask questions when you need to but also don't try and find the answer right away from someone else. discovery is part of the fun for fighting games

[@AndresLionheart]

And that's the problem for a lot of people. They come to fighting games too used to being handed solutions or having something that universally counters everything in other games. The process of sitting down and labbing a character to get good is a tall wall for a lot of newer players.

[@moonmoon2479]

Disagree. You discover nothing about neutral without any sort of tutorial or years of experience and that is very slow. Discovery often isn’t just boring, it’s not helpful.

[@hands-ongaming7180]

@@AndresLionheartyou either enjoy landing or you don’t. No one told me to lab. I just did it one day

[@bionicallyacomputer292]

fax man

[@OldeSmithProductions]

Great advice, honestly, and I look forward to trying it out. Though seeing the way chat reacted to the idea of using multiple follow-ups reminds me of an old joke. A man goes to visit his doctor, and says, "Doc, whenever I move my arm like this it hurts." The doctor replies, "Then don't move it like that."

[@jordansmoviereviews9787]

@Sajam thanks bro, now I can come up with a simple offensive gameplan with Cassie Cage in Mortal Kombat 11:Ultimate and expand my offense in the future to patch up holes in my offense but, for now I will use this strategy to build a simple offensive strategy for her and then I can evolve it as I go as needed.

[@jimbo5266]

Such a good vid. I've been thinking, perhaps a bit too much, about pokes in KOF that are negative on hit. It's funny, because the SRK wiki tends to be very pessimistic and be like "so and so move is garbage" but for a -3 poke in KOF 98, it just says "good poke." And it's easy with the frame-data-first mindset to think "How could this be a good move at all? It gives the opponent a turn ON HIT!!!" But really, hitting an opponent with the move forces them into a situation where they have to react, and if they react predictably, you can punish. I think this is why people have said that DF+1 in Tekken starts pressure on block despite being -1. Your opponent can act a frame faster, but it's not a cut-and-dry situation at all. There's no single right answer to blocking a DF+1. If your opponent acts predictably, you can punish them, even though you're at -1. In KOF 98, there's not much guaranteed that can respond to -3 poke on hit, so the opponent is put into a situation where they have many different but not guaranteed options. If they act predictably, they can be punished for it. And of course, if they do nothing at all, you're not really minus. And especially at a distance, being able to act several frames first isn't a guarantee of anything (Unless someone has a 3F ranged super or something...). So when they attempt to take their turn, you have multiple options to shut them down.

[@lololllololololol]

I'm a scrub but one thing I've discovered is that Narmaya is all about this concept. I know I'm doing it right when I can do full screen M-Transient > Crescent Moon for free.

[@Pandaman64]

Most characters in the game feel like they're about this concept. Ladiva, Percival, katalina, soriz, Djeeta.....

[@Xraellium]

This tends to happen naturally as you play the game more.

[@barsona]

I think the last part is golden. thank you Sajam!

[@Lanzetsu]

This is so standard in MK these days... and the reason many people complain about noobs lol, like "He made a -10 frame move, why did he uppercut instead of blocking?" And why do people get mad? Because you would usually punish it with a 7-8 frame move but since you know your enemy should try to block after that move... you go for a throw or a low start high and eat a Krushing Blow... This is also why so many people throw random DPs every single time or unsafe moves when they are supposed to not do it, and a reason why it is easier to play against high lvl players who respect that and are careful about it instead randoms who will throw your gameplan out the window sometimes. Even then this example for Percival is super solid, since you are not really risking that much with the spacing, it is sad people arguin even about showing them the concept.

[@nyleaustin1336]

It would be great if Sajam did a video like this for rebeat pressure. I just can’t get it down myself

[@deadfr0g]

This is all very interesting, Sajam, but nothing is going to stop me from pushing these buttons.

[@decksteroussnail]

You can lead a moose to water but you can't make it do something else.

[@masonthebesttoeverdoitsmith]

It blows my mind that people were actively arguing with you while you were explaining this

[@MageKirby]

I've robbed so many sets in tekken 7 by doing slightly minus move on block and eating their attack with armor moves.

[@thisistherun4015]

Wouldn't even call it robbery, that's a great way to spring an armoured attack on someone

[@guimartgon]

Sajam's chatroom never fails to deliver

[@wolvesr8n]

“If They block my attack is useless” -sajam 2020 lmaooo tell em again for the ones in the back. I swear people just be tryna come up with problems for every solution😭😭😭

[@Dwish305]

Great point, I need to incorporate this more into my Percival gameplay. Thanks!

[@bobbob8208]

What does he mean by staggering buttons? Just delaying the combo to catch them mashing and then you counter with another button?

[@jimbo5266]

I think that's basically it. "Staggering" usually refers to creating delays between attacks, generally to throw someone off, or giving them an opportunity to screw up and get hit.

[@KGershkoff]

So basically, learn our spacing and frame data. Then when we throw out a move that's spaced out properly and safe, create a plan to counter their counterattack?

[@ShadyHitchhiker]

Why is Sajam's chat so dense to his teachings? Like surely just over time, by engaging, they would learn things and make less statements that clearly show they don't understand. If he was fighting with randoms on twitter I'd get it, but this is HIS audience

[@shinyscrafty694]

I’ve found myself doing this flowchart before this video. Getting caught up in shit like frame data isn’t useful when unless you’re playing in a big tourney top kek at that ferry part at the end, maybe the medium dp would stop BUT really who is even gonna use the medium in That situation. Mind games and conditioning will take you a lot farther than frame data and tier lists

[@pokemonsonic321]

This tutorial is so important

[@Fleetw00d]

I think you just exposed people that love to watch and complain about stuff but don’t actually practice it at all.

[@mamertvonn]

this is really something that needs to be said. First time I played an fg, the first character i mained was always a lockdown character. I was too afraid to take a risk so i just lockdown an opponent to guarding... the result >>>> once my opponent realizes that he only needs to block, i dealt like zero damage the entire game(ignoring chip)>>>> and then i lose I'm not even really applying any mix-up since that was also too risky. I almost never grab my opponent since i was too afraid that I might get jabbed while running in. I really sucked and I wish I can get better by having a good community.

[@koover]

Confirmation bias is a bitch. Its extremely easy to slip into the mentality of "well this didnt work so it will never work" or assuming that your opponent knows and will execute the counter to your strategy because it's happened to you so many times. I want to say that's why people react the way they do. I've felt that way so many times and its extremely frustrating. Just my thoughts from my perspective.

[@multistuff9831]

My flowchart leads to winning only. If it loses I wasn’t playing seriously

[@zoggere4226]

Theres alot of new fgc with granblue and quite alot of them seem to be entitled and overconfident in everything without even labbing it for 5 minutes. Day 1 I had at least 6 people trying to tell me soriz demon was jumpable post flash or that dash punch was always fake on block and you couldn’t space it into whiff punish. Lab the god damn game before going around telling people “oh but it loses to dp lol” with smarmy confidence, its so annoying.

[@crimbo4690]

Personally I blame Leffen lmao

[@kashaunmorris2179]

So Lowain is the best to play mind games with?

[@jeanpierrepolnareff9919]

with percival i like to do medium autocombo into dp if it confirms. If it doesnt, just delay the dp and they will eat it everytime

[@egrassa1480]

What if they just block

[@jimbo5266]

It's a combo on block because they never block the whole thing. That reminds me in KOF, Robert has a dive kick and DP, and the DP combos on counter hit off the dive kick. But it also works all the time on block, because people want to push buttons after blocking a dive kick.

[@kevinm2832]

Birdie and Honda play this game in SF5.

[@ziggyfreefall2774]

I still don't get it?

[@LA-mv4do]

which part

[@HellecticMojo]

Nah, just be Jyobin. Throw out anything and everything, just confirm off it.

[@MH3Raiser]

x beats y every time is a dumb statement in and of itself. Does x beat y if x whiffs? Does x beat y if x is pressed when frame negative? Does x beat y at all ranges? Even if x DOES beat y in most situations, fundamentally there will always be situations where x will not beat y otherwise y would be the only button the opponent presses in situations where you press x, and I just described an incredibly shallow fighting game. Fun fact: this shallow fighting game does not exist.

[@bionicallyacomputer292]

omg, daym you cooked

[@bionicallyacomputer292]

oooh

[@bchaosrath2313]

Sweet

[@razrsrealm]

Out of all characters with a stronger dp of course dumbass chat mentions Ferry. In every game we have *scrubs* who complain about certain characters, and even if the complains are warranted, they always go further down the line, straight into scrubquotes territory. There was a dude complaining that Ferry was too op on reddit when he mains Katalina. It's crazy tbh. I hope Ferry doesn't get nerfed as much as the "ShE dOeSnT nEeD a dP" scrubs are whining.

[@valentine7388]

Ey what's that on your face

[@Xshinobi2k8]

Yup, I will never be good at fighting games.

[@omegakyratian413]

Well as long as you're having fun that doesn't really matter, does it?

[@LeightonsLibrary]

Unless you’re the best in the world, being good isn’t worth that much. It’s like learning a foreign language: once you’re fluent, you won’t enjoy it, you’ll just do it without thinking. Enjoy the learning process instead, because you’ll be learning for the rest of your life. Maybe technical study isn’t part of how you enjoy learning, or maybe you just don’t have the experience to grasp this yet. Either way, don’t let it bother you. Press some buttons and enjoy the game!

[@2000Doriyas]

You definitely won’t be if you think like that

[@Raidanzoup]

@@LeightonsLibrary This reminds me of Pat the Flip's writings about learning to play to learn instead of playing to win. And enjoying the process of hitting your goals, etc.

[@moonmoon2479]

@@2000Doriyas the community, their obsession with execution being difficult, getting angry at players trying to learn and asking questions, shit like this, maybe fighting games aren’t worth it. I see less and less reasons to recommend them every day.

[@zaychavitch5317]

Sajam can you just play the game for me thanks in advance

[@dangelosmith5950]

You should play super smash bros ultimate

[@ZarelidT]

Frame data is for people that don’t know how to get good without having their hand held for them 👍🏽.

[@biggestbungus1295]

?

[@ZarelidT]

@@biggestbungus1295 Frame data is for people that don’t know how to get good without having their hand held for them 👍🏽.

[@moonmoon2479]

I think I lost brain cells from reading this.

[@ZarelidT]

@@moonmoon2479 people like jwong got good back in the day without frame data yes? If the answer is yes then you only lose brain cells cause you lack train of thought. That’s your problem. Post still stands

[@scalpmountain]

I'm the second comment?

[@huskystorm3607]

Im the 1st comment?

[@longbao6040]

I'm the third comment?

[@Explicitnice]

this is fucking amazing, I didn't think I was a newbie until I saw this, had no idea the neutral nature of fighting games at all, wow, guess I am back to square one with all my fancy combos.