The Emperor's Message To The Lion And A Fight Against EVERY PRIMARCH | Warhammer 40K Investigations

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0:00 The Lion: Son of the Forest
8:18 Leman Russ
9:41 Horus Lupercal
12:33 Perturabo
14:16 Jaghatai Khan
16:44 Magnus the Red
19:01 Mortarion
23:40 Rogal Dorn
27:10 Alpharius
28:38 Angron
29:50 Ferrus Manus
30:08 Corvus Corax
30:28 Fulgrim
30:42 Lorgar
32:07 Roboute Gulliman
34:43 Sanguinius
35:41 Vulkan
36:31 Konrad Curze
39:14 The Old King: The Emperor of Mankind

[@Caladonian_1st]

Thanks for another great stream brother! You have become my favorite Warhammer content creator so I anxiously await every release. These streams really help the volume of content you produce and I love it. Keep up the good work ya legend.

[@SandmanofTerra]

Much appreciated! Glad you enjoy them!

[@kevinduggan201]

Ah okay I've only watched a portion of the video, and I saw something shiny and got distracted so I missed half of it, I'll re watch in a bit

[@xxMorgen_Ronny_Doy]

We dooooo @@SandmanofTerra

[@azreth7190]

The Lion talking about Khan: " I once worked with this guy for years and we never said a word to each other. Best friend I ever had. We still never talk sometimes."

[@robyngiesbrecht5206]

"you cant really tell who amongst any of the primarchs could beat the others" wrong, every one of them could kick lorgar's ass

[@naus6081]

Except all the times he put other primarchs flat on their asses…daemon fulgrim for that matter. Lorgar during the heresy gets a massive amp. That whole thing with Angron and the Titan shows a good example- he’s no longer to be trifled with.

[@kelceydane5874]

​@@naus6081unless your name is Corax. Read or listen to (I think) Shadows of the Past. Spoilers following..... If Lorgar hadn't fled through a portal, Corax would have murdered him. And the fight was surrounded by elite Word Bearer legionnaires and sorcerers, while on WB home territory. And Lorgar still got messed up, not that any of the damage was likely to last. I could be wrong but I think Corax might be able to permanently kill demons.

[@ebagigwhite]

Lorgar and angron should have both been aborted

[@Matzkxmx]

​@@kelceydane5874 or just drag him into the golden palace and get popcorn

[@CrimsonKrakhorn48]

The thing with that however is that Lorgar has been told that he's destined to die in a fight with Corax, yet he fights him anyways. Lorgar's survived TWO fights with Corax and is still alive, which I think speaks for itself.

[@rodac100cook7]

The Lion has gone through an Emperor level journey. He has gained the ability to cross the galaxy at will through the "forest webway". That's a very significant thing. It's not being given enough attention by writers or fans to me.

[@minimalphilia]

The Lion is literally a small version of emps. Including the Luther heresy and his desperate need to not explain anything vital to any of his sons. This writes itself best when the character is explained through the lense of those around him.

[@brotherwulfgar]

The writer literally gave it ALL the attention bro, and the mystery of it revolves around it being his own personal space, not a space anyone else can access without his key of mind.

[@MrWepx-hy6sn]

It's not that it isn't getting attention, but that GW is slow as fuck to put out new stuff

[@AristeidisKypriotis]

I just love the scene of the Lion boarding the Vengeful Spirit to meet Horus to give me a not-so-freindly brotherly warning of not using his sons for his (horus' plans). He walks in like a boss and evryone in the room, even in the presence of of Horus, drops automatically to one knee. From Angels of Caliban: "He advanced alone, no retinue or guard behind, eyes not once glancing at the honours presented to him. His jaw was set hard, hands bunched into fists. Typhon could feel anticipation turning to tension, polluting the atmosphere of the strategium. A mutter from Luther drew Typhon’s attention away from the Lion. The commander of the Dark Angels contingent was staring at his master as though a revenant stalked the corridor. The Lion burst onto the strategium with long strides and all around him warriors lowered to one knee like grass flattened by a strong wind. Typhon felt the need to obey flowing into him and he did not resist it, dropping one leg to the floor along with the others. Only Horus remained standing, saying nothing."

[@ghannos9869]

A couple of things. I think Sanguinius, being such a powerful psyker, probably knew about a lot of Lions exploits that are hidden from all but The Emperor. The Angel probably knows Lion and his Legion are not to be Fd with. His new sword. Much has been made about his shield now, but his sword pretty much materialized out of thin air, just happened to be gigantic, and has the DA sword insignia above the hilt. Pretty nutty.

[@ghannos9869]

Further nerd thoughts, when Lion storms Horus' ship, everybody kneels, all the other Legions too. As far as the 2 missing primarchs not in his dream fight in the new fight, my fan theory is Lion is the one that killed them. Rogal was appalled when Malcador revealed what happened and wanted to be wiped again. I imagine him and Russ couldn't do it, they loved those bros, Lion just did it.

[@ghannos9869]

Last one haha, I think the new Fallen that won't remove his helmet is Luther. They can set it up so that Lion finds out, but keeps it a secret. This way they can keep the secretive nature of them .

[@TheEeeeron]

I'm not sure I'd count Sanguinius as a psyker, he has the gift of foresight which could argue is a psychic power but no other abilities; certainly nothing that affects the physical realm or anything that I think would allow him to read other people's thoughts. He only seems to be able to see what will happen to him or his legion.

[@Gunnberg85]

By all means, nerd away my friend.

[@gavinminty4974]

@@ghannos9869 the red whisper can’t be. He’s full sized astartes. :) Luther is only augmented human he’s shorter. Typhon remakes on this in the same book you mentioned above. Angels or caliban. “The one leading them was shorter.”

[@kellerblair2952]

Emperor “Here Lionel have these godless killing machines from the Dark Age that have a hatred of all life” Never trusted him my ass.

[@zourin8804]

Tinfoil hat thought: The missing primarchs never existed. The Emperor faked partial memories of Primarchs that didn't exist in the first place as a warning against failure and betrayal. It would be oddly ethical.

[@similaritiesendhere]

I like the meta explanation of the missing primarchs existing only to let table top players customize their own chapters down to their geneseed. It's also entirely possible that the missing primarchs are loyal but, more secretive than even Alpha Legion. Hell, the next primarch return might actually be a reveal. Games Workshop will have that Ace up their sleeve until they actually use it. This would explain why there are two of them. GW can do both ideas at the same time.

[@cnut7383]

​@@similaritiesendhereone of the primarchs IS a blank and is locked below Terra. I will not argue with this

[@similaritiesendhere]

@@cnut7383 Big E designed Magnus to be a spare battery for the Golden Throne. There's no reason to believe that he was blindsided by the Heresy if Kurze and Sanguinius could foresee it. Here's a tin foil hat theory: What if the 19th primarch was so similar to Big E that he was a perfect vessel for his reincarnation? Maybe that's why he was erased from history. Point is, if we're putting on tin foil hats to write fanfiction... shouldn't the ideas be cooler than one of the primarchs being a blank? Aren't several primarchs, a few Astartes chapters (Grey Knights), and several Sisters already super resistant to chaos?

[@carljhirst]

One was a Woman. Xerxia A Firmark. Omni-Fem. She was a Black teenager that could invent stuff like Tony Stark. But the stuff she invented was...er...

[@similaritiesendhere]

@@carljhirst Really? At 3am eastern time your biggest worry is that there are too many black/female characters in 40k? I've seen more diversity at one Avengers screening than I've seen at every table top game I've attended in 20 years. D&D doesn't have this issue. Becoming an incel is a choice for most people.

[@devineyre5545]

The old king is also a homage to Arthurian legend. In that legend there is also a green knight (Lion) and when meeting Merlin he has to choose between objects to find the holy grail. Links to calabans knightly background.

[@dracos4244]

The Fisher King and the right question to ask him is also a key part of the Percival grail story which is a huge influence in this book

[@LCliffhanger]

I expect the foght between ADB and Dan was probably around the Emperor being good because whenever Dan writes Primarchs, especially traitors, he writes human characters that fall from grace and have beautiful yet tragic stories or at least good/understandable reasons for where they end up, he keeps things comlex and nuanced. When he wrotes Leman in Prospero Burns, he denies the idea that Leman attacked Magnus because he hated him, he adds in Lemans plea to Magnus to surrender, to take him to the Emperor, he counters the idea that came before that book which was that Leman was just a dick, and added more complexity to his character. When he writes the Alpha Twins in Legion, they dont turn because "bad dad" they turn because they think its whats best for humanity, and in a sense, is still loyal to the Emperor. When he writes Horus, he writes him as a kind and caring man and sets the stage for him to be turned, unfortunately McNiel takes the cliffhanger of the first book and fast forwards us to Horus already planning to turn. Though McNiel still writes Horus as a character with some ways to fall. He also writes Fulgrim with a tragic fall that makes sense. Back to dan though, we also see on Saturnine, he brings in Erda who speaks highly of the Emperor, she described him as a good and very charming man, she turned because she didnt like how quickly the Emperor was trying to do everything. We also get Perturabo who isnt a petulant manchild but is actually a calm and calculating character with some depth, even remenoscing over a lesson he learnt from Dorn. By contrast, ADB gives us Curze, a psycho, who, at best, has an identity crisis, at worst, is just insane and blames everything on the Emperor. Lorgar, who gets called a faliure and immediately becomes a satanist because "bad dad". And Angron, who is insane and also has daddy issues. Its a horrible shame, even in Angrons first appearance, we see him having a propper discussion with his brothers in a strategy meeting, in either book one or two, hes a stable primarch even with the nail, but every other depiction makes him a whining, whimpering, twitching psycho that can barely keep himself from killing his own sons, let alone discussing battle plans. It seemed like they gave up on writing tragic traitor Primarchs after Magnus. Perturabo falls on his own, Mort falls on his own, Curze fell on his own and Angron never even fell. Horus got 5 books, Fulgrim and Alpharius got one, Magnus got one, the rest maybe get there reasons explained in half of a story but we never see them actually make the choice to side with Horus Its similar to the backstories. Perts backstory is mixed into a few chapters of Angel Exterminatus. Morts is mixed into Burrier Dagger. Angrons is mixed into his Primarch Book. Meanwhile we have wastes of space like Furious Abyss, Outcast Dead, which id appreciate more if babu appears in the siege, Damnation of Pythos and all the Salamander books, (sry salamander fans, your heresy novels are awful) Tangent asside. ADB writes beautifully, but a lot of his writing is fairly miopic and at times, inconsistent. The Black Legion books for instance. In the First book, Abbadons whole motivation is regaining a sense od Brotherhood, the idea of family and beloning, forming a Legion for the sake of having a Legion again. Then in the second book its this kind of tedious notion of "vindicta" that he keeps trying ro drill into Khayons head as if itll make him stronger, kinda like the stupid way some world eater characters, or angron for that matter will be like "yes, being an insane madman thats so angry you dont even remember who you are, is totally the biggest advantage you could ever hope for in war, myes, forget marshal skill, discipline, tactics, strategy or, yknow, guns, anger totally beats all those things" Its downright tedious, Abbadon actually critisizes Khayon for failing to assassinate the head of the 2nd most powerful chaos warband, because he doesnt have enough baby rage in him, and abbadon acts like revenge is actually the main and only purpose of forming the legion, forget the brotherhood stuff. Now that could have been part of an interesting turn, when Abbadon becomes the champion of chaos but the second book doesnt go thst far foward, he hasnt face any primarchs, he hasnt claimed drachnayen yet or anything, hes only gone on his first crusade out of the eye. And the fact that so many of the traitor Primarchs ended up being shitty before they fell is an awful waste. Each Primarch was a treasure trove of potential, a brotherhood of 18 demigods that splits and turns into a tragic civil war as half of humanities greatest avatars fall and turn into monsters. We got that with Horus, Fulgrim, Alpharius and Magnus. Mort was pissy. Perty had a tantrum. Lorgar had an identity crisis. Curze was insane Angron was also insane. Thankfully the loyalists didnt suffer as much. Lion, brilliant. Guilliman brilliant. Sanguinius, brilliant. Corax brilliant but under-used. Dorn, Brilliant. The only real issues are with Leman, Vulkan and Ferrus. Ferrus died instantly so he never rly got a chance for development or exploration. Leman has great moments, but the writers generally seem to have trouble working out what they actually want to do with him. And Vulkan spends most of his screen-time being dead or dying. Like....seriously, in fury of Magnus, he gets obliterated by Magnus several times. In Vulkan lives, his deaths are practically half the scene transitions. In Deathfire he's literally just a corpse being transported home until he's resurrected. In Unremembered Empire he's insane and dies to Curze, Jon Grammaticus and a random hitman from the cabal. I didnt bother with old earth so its either the one book besides his Primarch book where he doesnt die, or i just havent heard about it because Vulkan Deaths arent even worth noting anymore. Lions had some inconsistent writing but on the whole he's okay. And Fulgrim got ruined by Reflection Crack'd, so he rly only gets a good rating if we pretend that doesnt exist. And unfortunately most Primarch books are actually crap. Frankly all of them have suffered from wasted potential but if that wasnt enough, for the writing they do get, about 8 of them are poorly handled. And the writing quality of the rest can still be quite bad but they at least have peaks and some actually get some brilliant writing.

[@Archon3960]

Speaking of writer inconsistencies, I think we really need a "Dark Imperium" series on Abaddon. We are told he evolved, but never shown how he got to where he is now. What is his mindset on everything that happened right after _Saturnine_ and the whole debacle? Why did he take up his father's role despite thinking he was a fool? And so much more. :/

[@sbeaber]

Yeah. ADB can write well but his stories are full of ott characters. Every one of his protagonists have some shtick. Super duper special foresight. Super special grey knight power. Super duper unique possessed. Super duper repressed psyker ultimate fighter night lord. On and on. I get it. But it's so common in his stories and less with other authors

[@DirtyMardi]

ADB doesn’t like primarchs all that much, or at least that’s the feeling I get from his books. He is a good writer, with possibly better flow and pacing than Abnett, but the characters, while interesting feel a bit humourless, melodramatic and sometimes lack nuance.

[@undercovertakodachi4301]

as a salamander fan I accept your apology, our Heresy books are mid.

[@mahtyelgaming4987]

While I will always be a salamander player at heart. I have to admit the dark angels have 'risen' to my top three.

[@SandmanofTerra]

It's impossible to not love the salamanders I reckon

[@templar628]

I'm the other way, I've always loved the dark angels, before I knew the lore I just liked the look then loved the lore but once I started getting into the lore like was said already it's almost impossible to not love the salamanders and we need like 10 more books on them pronto

[@sigis72]

The 1st Legion deserves more attention, they are the best, yet underrated

[@rondyreeves4772]

I will never be happy until Lion’El has a Watcher in the Dark who follows him everywhere he goes and says “Snarf, snarf” often.

[@minkernator]

Lol top reference!

[@rondyreeves4772]

@@minkernator I’m glad to see someone else is old enough to get it! I loved Thundercats. We had the coolest toys in the 80s - He-Man, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Voltron, and Thundercats. I never saw anything during the 90s to today that came close to the toys we had in the 80s.

[@minkernator]

@@rondyreeves4772 He-Man, the best cartoon growing up (until x-men and Batman the animated series at least) and also the correct colour for a cup of tea!

[@Hexsyn]

How about "Utinni!" Instead?

[@multiversalsingularity398]

I was watching Pancreasnowork on why the SW suck and he said in the video that the wolves are supposed to be vikings in space but arent. Now with guilliman returning and becoming a supreme commander, the lion returning as a protector of the people, Russ is bodyguards but on a grander scale, giving important characters wolves at their disposal essentially. A calmer wiser, cold yet subltey perceptive Russ who becomes the valdor of the Imperium, just with wolves instead of custodes, bringing the mindset "good offensive is good defense"

[@endymionmikel4022]

Russ needs to return with one eye gone given for knowledge of the runes

[@christrudden5114]

Another thing to consider is that this imagery of the wounded King is taken direct from the quest for the Holy Grail. Which is all about renewal of the land and healing of the king. That can then point toward the future of the Lion's plot lines.

[@mikestone6078]

Yeah, I immediately thought Grail when the scene was described in this video. Haven't read the book, but the spear perfectly fits the Grail imagery and a candelabra wouldn't be amiss at all. That's Arthurian Grail mythology for sure.

[@arsonistic_spoons_arts]

You have a enchanting voice . Stubbled upon you're channel while listing to 40k stuff and happy to find you and you're channel 😊😊😊

[@BM-wf9uf]

The inconsistent portrayal of The Lion in the Heresy is why I absolutely support Primarchs "belonging" to one particular author. Guy Haley I think does a fantastic job with Guilliman. And I was deeply impressed with Mike Brooks portraying the Lion in his return. If we keep the same authors portraying the same Primarchs it would help to improve consistency.

[@templar628]

Or at least have the "main author" read over and make sure it's the same feel for a primarch. But it does run into problems like we don't have hardly any vulkan books because one dude writes him if I remember correctly so it's give and take

[@nathanrosman-bakehouse359]

Writing by committee, one or more authors work together on the book and the whole committee edits the work and makes it consistent and accurate to the world and lore.

[@templar628]

Yah that sounds good but maybe they need some fine tuning because there is many versions of like the Lion, Big E the custodes ect depending on who writes them and whatnot. But by committee is probably the best for such a large volume of lore to cover and books to write.

[@lazylazymule]

Certainly true of Chris Wraight and Jaghatai Khan.

[@andresperedo1275]

That would mean that Corax belongs to Thorpe... and nobody wants that

[@peterusmc20]

To me all three objects represented loyal primarchs and what the emperor needs them to do. Maybe this is a stretch but a golden candelabra thats notably intricate? A golden source of light from something complicated? A certain golden throne that is the light for half the universe that only vulkan can fix? Alternately it could just refer the lion to allowing light from the throne into the dark imperium or building something like the light guilleman had in the imperium secondus. The chalice i think refers to sanguinis of course but importantly his bloodline and the stuff with the sanguinor but it could also refer to the lion needing to unite his blood, his sons. The spear i think refers to Russ and his potential return, i think its notable the lion first saw russ maybe the brother he thinks of the most ... However valdor also has a golden spear that is maybe about to draw blood. I think spears have little to do with the lions own story however if there is a confrontation with valdor in a conclusion to the yellow king storyline im not sure who on the imperiums side in the 41st millenium except the lion could take that fight no shade on guilleman. Hard to believe a space marine could even a grey knight, maybe a sanguinor possessed dante or something. If this refers to the quests the emperor is setting the lion i think the spear might be him having to interact one way or another with the yellow king if he does turn out to be valdor. He already encountered someone who had the plan to kill the emperor to strengthen him and i think the new personality would be an interesting contrast with valdor.

[@kelceydane5874]

The Lion should absolutely be the new Imperial Warmaster, but aside from The Emperor rising, Gulliman should be the general ruler of the Imperium.

[@Archon3960]

_"Warmaster"_ kinda has a tainted feeling to it. ;/

[@kelceydane5874]

@@Archon3960 you're not wrong... "Imperial Master of War" it is!

[@Lazrael32]

yeah guilliman is the right man for it. it's even how they did things in imperium secondus. Sanguinius was just a figure head. He did some decision making but it was guilliman running the government and lion running the armies.

[@AvitusNox]

I think Lion will be the imperial protector to gulliman’s imperial regent.

[@ruaine83]

Russ also has canid DNA as well, so maybe he ages in prime-dog years...

[@patray860]

Great commentary. Love listening to you two analyzing books. You guys should discuss Blood of the Emperor. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on Horus section which was very surprising and hear Quipster discuss a very atypical Dorn in a battle

[@tehnosan5769]

They are not the best at any one thing, but they are second best at all things, is probably the most accurate way to describe the dark angels

[@undercovertakodachi4301]

it is better to be 2 or 3 on everything rather than being #1 in just one thing.

[@Blencs]

Great video, you and quipster make a great lore duo👌 love the discussion and breakdown of ideas. Should do it more often 👍

[@TheGarthinator]

I loved this book so much, I found myself really feeling like I was along with Zavriel on this awesome journey with the Lion. I've always been a huge Tyranids fan, but now I consider myself a big Dark Angels fan also.

[@Lazrael32]

Zavriel was a great new character. I could read an entire trilogy on just him.

[@TheGarthinator]

@@Lazrael32 totally, I found myself hoping we'd get a trilogy of books like we got with Bobby G and the whole Dark Imperium series.

[@hermesshkurti396]

dark lion librarian says we are sorrounded. tyranydys on the left, orcs on the right, drukari to the south, chaos to the north. The lion says " so the plan worked"

[@raphie8488]

The Fisher King and the Holy Grail could give "some" clues.

[@eldoriath1]

Great conversation, I have also thought if the river the wounded king sits in with a fishing rod is a representation of the great rift and perhaps how the emperor was "fishing" for knowledge or information, a way to close it or something.

[@bencolburn8234]

The bloody spear, the chalice, and the candelabra. The king is described as bleeding into the water and being bloody a lot. The metaphor could be as simple as the king bleeds himself into the chalice to fuel the light of the imperium. The Emperor needs the lion to understand something in order to save him and the imperial

[@CynUnion-ji9uj]

I suspect, while also referring to primarchs, the 3 golden items in front of the king is a reference to The Fisher King of Authurian Legend. With Lion filling a role of maybe Perceval, one of The Grail Knights. Big E is a reflection of The Fisher King(in this particular case). I don't recall a candelabra in The Fisher King's list of artifacts, but the Chalice and Bleeding Spear could be The Holy Grail and Lance of Longinus respectively. That could point toward a lot of things. The Holy Grail is an Item of pure healing in most myth, so It could be Big E asking for the Lion to Heal him or one of his lost brothers.

[@williamritchie693]

The missing primarchs do have lore other than the old, you can make them up. Firstly Fulgrim speaks about one of them fondly indicating that they all knew them.

[@SandmanofTerra]

They for sure would have all met at one point or another

[@houseadams4841]

Excellent point about the Primarchs being made of not only mankind but the Wrap… and their physical presence and appearance could alter given their thoughts about themselves.. Thinking back…. Many stories mentioned something along these lines. Especially when the Primarchs are in battle or doing something they are focusing on… i.e. Leman and Magnus fighting each other… (they both seemed to grow and exude power..) Corvus using his ability to make himself “invisible” to those around him… etc.. I know there are more..

[@VallornDeathblade]

If you think about it, there are now 3 main factions/bloodlines in the Dark Angels chapter. You have the Old Guard modern DA chapter, the New Kids Primaris, and now the Lion and his Risen. Even with their loyalty to their genefather there's still going to be political tension between those. Consider a Dark Angel who has spent decades if not centuries hunting the Fallen now having to take orders from a Risen. If they treat this well it could make for some great stories while it resolves.

[@FLMKane]

The Lion slept in the rock that makes you old

[@karituominen5112]

One doesn't keep the one he trusts close and send away the he doesn't trust, but the other way around.

[@lohengrin9127]

I cannot wait to see the lion and robot girlyman meet again especially with the lion being so dedicated to reuniting his wayward uncorrupted sons; especially after believing he is the only of his loyal brothers to return. I feel like he will embrace gman and be so happy to see his brother again even if it is gman.

[@oldeskul]

When the Lion absolutely waffle stomps several Death Guard, making them feel absolute terror, that made me pause. Think about it for a minute. Many of them would be the original legionaries who fought in the Great Crusade, followed Mortarion to betray the Emperor and the Imperium, fought against loyalists during the Horus Heresy and fought on Holt Terra itself during the siege. They were based on the original designs by Big E himself, had their fear erased by special psycho-indoctrination, got corrupted by Nurgle to no longer feel pain and spread the Grandfather's blessings across the galaxy, and fought the long war against the Imperium. But when they faced the Lion, they were probably soiling their armor(which probably made them smell slightly better). I don't know if falling to chaos and getting corrupted somehow breaks their psycho-indoctrination. Maybe being exposed for so long to the warp spaghetti of the chaos gods drives them insane to the point that even if their indoctrination is broken, they're to insane to understand what fear is. Regardless, once they encountered the Lion, they intimately understood terror. I like to think that after losing his duel to the Lion, when Angron appeared before Khorne's throne, there was probably some warp turds sliding down his thighs(which were probably skull chunks, blobs of blood or nuggets of brass).

[@hpph7133]

Patina of dust - just a fancy way of saying he's covered in dust but in a way that is inconsistent and possibly aesthetically so

[@SandmanofTerra]

Thanks! 😂

[@grahamstrouse1165]

@@SandmanofTerraThink do patina as rust, but fashionable.

[@mecht0ast485]

I think the light has something to do with bringing back the astronomicon to imperium nihilus

[@SandmanofTerra]

That's a good shout

[@grorichard1397]

Only thing I hate about the book is that the Lion aged that much and got so much weaker. While they let Roboute stay basically the same age they made Lion an old man that needs to fight strategically to beat 5 chaos terminators. Not only that, apparently he also got weaker mentally. In 30k, when El'Jonson fought a Khrave that attacked him with psychic energy it literally read "Even the warp changes when a Primarch is involved" and the Xenos couldn't do anything to him with a psychic attack. Meanwhile in the new book Seraphax is able to stun and hurt him with a psychic attack and could've basically killed him. He got a buff with the shield in the end, but I can't shake the feeling he is much much weaker than Guilliman now.

[@Lazrael32]

eh power scaling has always been weird in 40k. he also beat angron in a fight that i think would have killed Big G.

[@grorichard1397]

@@Lazrael32 You're right, he did beat Angron. The thing is, he got Big E's shield for that, so that makes me think the shield is what they are trying to balance him back to normal "Primarch level". Sadly, this means that he himself isn't that level anymore though.

[@Lazrael32]

@@grorichard1397 you aren't wrong. But it'll be interesting what they do with corax since he's supposed to have ascended (though they could retcon it) and the khan was never close with the emperor so him getting a magic weapon would be weird to me.

[@cassiusaureliusanima]

What If the two lost legions are just a lie from the emperor? He imprinted that memory on all of his sons. Maybe Lion due to the way he is, he doesn't 'feel' those brothers because they never existed in the first place but all the others had been desiring to know about it at some point. Maybe he is playing the game abd that would be thebpart that the alpha legion took from him, lies over lies, and even them were lied to with that.

[@SandmanofTerra]

Could be cool!

[@codelicious6590]

Aside from anthologies of shorter stories and all the Necron novels, of and The Eye of Terror, this book impacted me more than almost all other 40k lore. Love how his character has evolved since crusade/heresy era.

[@ampednormal9045]

I wonder why he thinks Vulkan died though? At the very least, Dorn knew Vulkan was still alive and the last we saw of Vulkan he was in the imperial palace when the big E invades the vengeful spirit. Plenty folk saw him in the palace, he was basically left in charge.

[@SandmanofTerra]

Perhaps he'd somehow heard of the war of the beast and assumed Vulkan died in that conflict

[@Lazrael32]

to be fair according to the first Salamander book they all still believed that vulcan died at the dropsite massacre. and he definitely was wandering around long after that. (though that is a probably a case of lore not being fleshed out yet)

[@thelonelybolter8245]

What an all-star team! I am here for it :D

[@redasylum]

Can't wait to see the Lion knock Lameman Russ out again.

[@Franpowah]

This was really fun to listen to.

[@joelt7731]

I think each primarch has different skill sets that make them the best in certain types of battles

[@jamiecarr7372]

I can see the quote about the Khan being the Lion's closest brother is because they have never met. Lol

[@hucknanjing1083]

Look as a brother myself it doesn't matter if the younger/youngest shatters your jaw on the first punch you say didn't hurt and swing back

[@matthewc7013]

I don't often post comments on videos I watch, but I feel compelled to share my respects. I'm new to 40k and have really been trying to invest myself in the universe over the last year. I've watched a lot of lore channels trying to get my head around this crazy huge lore but the most enjoyable videos to watch are a couple of passionate dudes just sharing the views and love of the story

[@SandmanofTerra]

Thanks man! I just love talking about the lore

[@timeforringydingy]

Heyoooo, excellent video! What about the candelabra/king in the boat are about The Lion needing to save Valdor?

[@SandmanofTerra]

It could be something like that, personally I dont think they will bring the lion into that storyline but it could make sense given the clue!

[@axelbergstrom1978]

Finally some real talk about the DA and the Lion. I'm so tired to hear people who don't care about the DA talk about them as just paranoid assholes. What I've got from the dust and the three objects are that the Emperor tries to say: The Imperium is old and corrupt, bring back Golden boi and together with Rowboat Girlyman you three shine new light on the galaxy with Imperium Secundus

[@treevenewson]

Good Video. Question what exactly are the Dwellers in the Dark?

[@SandmanofTerra]

We don't know exactly as they're deliberately mysterious, but they're a xenos races or Caliban that seem to hate chaos

[@markwalker4823]

This is my first book in regards to warhammer. I love the lore and whilst I am still a salamander man, I am also a old man lion fan. Not to mention the fallen who redeem themselves.

[@christopherpittman445]

So the wounded king, the grail, and the lance (spear) are straight out of the Arthurian story of the Fisher King. There is a lot to unpack there if you want to read up on it, but the key thing is that the wounded king can only be cured if the hero asks the right question. If he fails to do so, the king's land will remain barren (brings to my mind the emperor and current imperium), but if he succeeds the king will be healed and the land returned to prosperity.

[@JoeGrant-swe]

Re the Lion looking old, Guilliman also ages. Its in the Watchers of the Throne book (The Emperors Legion) where Tieron says that Guilliman goes to see the Emp and when he returns he has aged. So being the presence of the Emperor causes the primarchs to age, suggesting the Lion was with him longer than Guilliman was...

[@SandmanofTerra]

Very true, I actually do talk about that in this stream

[@bradleyhall1815]

Ahhhh yes forgot for a minute that Sandman is a Brother of the first!!

[@SandmanofTerra]

The greatest legion!

[@bradleyhall1815]

@@SandmanofTerra led by the greatest primarch!

[@dothackoblivion]

Anyone noticed that the Lion is now really a 40k version of the Green Knight?

[@francismarchand1637]

To me, he feels much more like Perceval. Raised in the wilderness, oblivious to the subtler ways of knightly and courtly life, lacking in social skills yet unbelievably skilled and naturally talented. More or less the equal of Lancelot, the « greatest knight in the world ». The Grail, candelabra, the bleeding spear and wounded king are clearly a reference to the Fisher King and the Holy Grail, Perceval’s original quest. His task was to heal the king with the right question. Perceval fails, and spends years looking for the Grail to fix his mistake. If GW keeps the Arthurian story beat, the king will be healed when Perceval (Lion) comes back with Galahad (the purest knight, maybe a reborn Sanguinius) and Bohort (who ties his best despite his human failures, whose strength waxes and wanes with the Sun, maybe Vulcan).

[@codymcteer5898]

I’m starting to dread listening to you talk about The Lion lol, I’m a Sanguinius fan but you really make Lion El sound so badass it’s starting to make me wonder if I should switch. Maybe you could do a Sanguinius video and ease my mind 😊

[@bencolburn8234]

For the Lion!

[@olihurley6249]

I can’t help thinking that the spear with blood on it and the dust covering the stone table is a reference to valdor, hiding out in city of dust after stabbing abbadon.

[@TheSmaaaak]

Lion - “Why would you intentionally kill yourself?” Emperor - “That is the right question.” Major I Robot Easter egg hahaha

[@arcticghost1393]

"the lion was the first born, but Horus was the first found" Alpha legion: it's cute that you think that...

[@TimothyFerguson]

The bloody spear and spear and chalice are references to the myth of the Fisher King, I think. They're the bleeding spear on Longius and the Holy Grail. Also, the Lion does what Galahad does: he doesn't ask the right question, so he can't heal the Maimed King.

[@francismarchand1637]

Failing to ask the right question is where Perceval fails in his task as the Grail knight, and Galahad then inherits the title when, accompanied by Bohrs and Perceval (attempting to fix his failure), he does ask the right question and saves the king

[@hassam363]

I kind of want them to bring back Konrad Curze. Maybe as a clone or warp entity of some sort.

[@aganaom1712]

The only primarchs i would say could reasonably beat the lion in a duel on any day are probably angron and the khan I think fulgrim and russ could fight him to a stand still Dorn, mortarion, vulkan, curze and corax could maybe keep him occupied for a while but ultimately lose And the others would get bodied in melee

[@BloodyArchangelus]

hahaha. Sanguinius went into the room. Say - hello brother. why we should fight, when we should build together? Than Lion is crying, while he forest walking through the warp...

[@piotrd.4850]

In individual fight - I agree. Though fight between Dark Angels and White Scars would be interesting.

[@whitlocktherevanchist5236]

I think the thing about jaghatai and the lion that makes them close is that above all, they both are very happy to let their actions speak for themselves rather than spend a lot of time talking

[@docvaliant721]

The Lion looking old makes no sense to me. I would believe that the chromosomes of a primarch would not break down.

[@BrandonGiordano]

Sanguineus will definitely come back one day. Theres no way GW leave all that money on the table

[@RSBurgener]

I *really* enjoyed this book. I know it has its detractors, number one being Northern Exile for its supposed erosion of the Grimdark atmosphere. I disagree. I think reintroducing the heroic elements to something like the Dark Angels, who have been a force of division and suspicion for a long time, is a very good thing. Look, its a tough world out there, especially in the here and now. It's all a bit too close to 40k in a lot of ways. Something like this book, that helps us remember that hey, we can always try and put things back together, to do what's right before the end of it all, is a very good thing. I know it was for me. I created my own Unforgiven Chapter that incorporated these story elements, and it's helped me to change my thinking for the better in my real life.

[@robertcollier5537]

The shadows are the tyranid hive fleets. Moth’s to a flame.

[@werty4895]

Which book has the interaction of the imperial fists templars and the dark angels bit, the one about the neophytes you mentioned

[@pinkyunddasbrain]

Isn't there a ruby cocoon on The Vengeful Spirit that's supposed to be a psychic manifestation of Sangunius' soul?

[@tomhathaway2556]

Hey you mentioned about wanting to talk to dan abnett. Dont know if you are familiar with Mira Manga, but she has being going through the horus heresy and talking to the authors about the books. She has had dan on a couple of times. I think she just asked him and he was up for it. Just a thought.

[@SandmanofTerra]

I'll shoot my shot aha

[@robertflynn4215]

I love this video about lion el'jonson son of the forest book. Can't until you talk about corvus corax, for I'm a son of the deliverer of the XIX legion the raven guard victorus Aut Mortis 🤫😶‍🌫️🖤

[@SandmanofTerra]

Definitely will do! I will try and get to him soon

[@Birds_A_Killa_Now]

I think it was Descent of Angels that shows them taking their time saving the Lion from some nuclear presents.

[@SandmanofTerra]

That's correct yeah

[@neon_necromunda]

Patina means a surface created over time aka aged, rusty, dusty etc....

[@Warmaster13thcrusade]

What does not jive so to speak is Sanguinius and other primarchs think the lion is above reproach. Yet the lion has some of THE most traitoris sons. I seem to remember a recent book telling of a strike team killing Custodes????

[@SandmanofTerra]

So you're absolutely right, but that's all revealed after Sanguinius' death. They might think very differently now

[@undercovertakodachi4301]

this is why my Favorite legion Is the Dark Angels but one of my most hated Chapters is Dark Angels.

[@3772891]

Is hard to know in the long term who actually wins when everybody is always getting stronger and more immortal. For example: Vulkan is immortal, angron is now immortal, fulgrin can come back to another clone, guilliman can come back with a bit of big E or aeldary magic, perturabo is doing so much herectic shit he must already be immortal fused with his warp tech, ferrus manus will be fixed by the big E, the daemon crow must be immortal like other daemons, sanguinor is probably comming back... If all primarchs are getting immortal a true victory is hard to achieve even with magic.

[@Lazrael32]

yeah i was one of the few who didn't care for big G being resurrected by the emperor. really makes all the fights feel one sided to me.

[@undercovertakodachi4301]

Good argument but Fire Sword.

[@scottrussell3862]

The redeemed in this book are the standout characters for me, all well written and beleiabke as 30k era Dark Angels. The lion returning brought me back in to the modelling side for the first time since since 4th edition. I was literally like goleem awaiting that model 😂

[@lewishorsman2219]

It’s such a shame that Lorgar turned traitor. I still to this day believe he could have encouraged such a defence of Terra that afterwards the Emperor himself would have said “Ya know, being worshipped kind of saved our asses there. I was clenched for a while but those hymns and battle chants really paid off!”

[@malekbaraka3458]

Being worshipped was the last resort of the Emperor after the "Magnus'" event. The Emperor never wanted that. Yes, the Word Bearers would have loved the post heresy Era.

[@sbeaber]

They both fought on the fringes of the Crusade. The Scars were the Outriders while the Dark Angels were there to Erase anything that the scars couldn't be bothered to.

[@jameskoskidescamps2497]

5th legion; the Orc fighters; always sent to the edge of the Imperium to fight zenos. Most of our traitors were from earth which arguably have may have been Apha legion infiltrators.

[@colbyt4098]

Take the spear into the web way to learn the truth of how to revive the king.

[@shanelewis7052]

The non Terran Dark Angels were pretty much Space Marines before Caliban was even found with how they fight and their preferred gear. Being the First Legion every other Legion's tactics are a watered down version of the firsts tactics.

[@Wolfhound1776]

The Lion is the most criminally under fleshed out character

[@ZeroSignalG]

There are a lot of choices here, Russ and Sanguinius are sort of a given. The candelabra could be a few things. I thought of Valdor or Dorn, golden candelabra more decorated than the others on the wall, that sounds like the Imperial Fists or the Custodes. That conversation that Guilliman has with the Emperor always bothered me, he's so smart but, he can't tell that the Emperor's soul is splintering. Whether you subscribe to the shaman theory, or not, it is splintering apart. Each splinter says what it thinks, until He focuses and pulls himself together for their chat.

[@Lazrael32]

yeah there is an old story where someone gets to talk to the emperor (which is not canon i think since he's offically talked to no one until guilliman.(though there are also conflicting stories on how guilliman got Big E's sword... so oh well). and it was something like a room full of voices talking to him at once.

[@ZeroSignalG]

@@Lazrael32 I remember that, too. Probably noncanon no but, it was pretty interesting.

[@PeachDragon_]

The lion is in his prime McGregor arc i see

[@lord_horrick]

So the Cypher: lord of the fallen book talks a lot about asking the right questions...I think Cypher is going to help the Lion with asking the right question

[@WredFawks]

Late but here's my take: Lion finds Russ, Enlightens Dante (who's Sanguinius? Warp Shenanigans), the spear and the chalice; the candelabra? Redeeming Magnus through Russ's apology and Sanguinius and Magnus's friendship.

[@endymionmikel4022]

Perhaps its Russ's Spear that the emperor needs to pierce his side ala jesus and spear of destiny reference, Valdors spear would illuminate Valdor, Russ's would illuminate the Emperor

[@SandmanofTerra]

Could be an interesting avenue to go down for sure

[@edsherwook5196]

Have they revealed who the king in yellow is yet? I assumed it was valdor. I hope so he’s easily one of my favorite chars

[@anxioussamurai9017]

I partially agree with Sandman regarding why the Emperor spoke so harshly to Guilliman in Dark Imperium: Godblight, but I don't think they were necessarily "harsh truths". Rather, I always felt that the Emperor was telling him what he needed to hear rather than what Guilliman probably wanted to hear. I believe every word he chose had a purpose, reaching out further into a future that only the Emperor could foresee.

[@UnRu1eD]

I think Leman Shows age simply due to being “Odin/Thor” Symbolism plus He considers himself the older brother of them all.

[@UnRu1eD]

I mean, Leman Russ and Lion Openly Admitted they are Equals in terms of skill and combat. Even saying they both could’ve killed each other

[@squeesmyth9025]

wanna see death races games between white scars and ravenwing

[@Mayan_sorel]

48:50/49:45 coudn't the shadow be the tyranids ? shadow in the warp and stuff

[@SandmanofTerra]

Maybe, but I think daemons is more likely

[@edkolbe1850]

The Lion is GOATed

[@BlueGoblin1]

The lion was asking about the king rather than the clues infront of him. His hyperfocus is in the wrong place. But once he asks the right questions he will know exactly what to do.

[@charlieholdsworth6086]

I think the question is "How may I serve?" Why else would he appear as a King

[@kevinduggan201]

I thought the candelabra represented the astronomicon

[@SandmanofTerra]

Yeah thats a stron possibility, we do speak about that also

[@kevinduggan201]

@@SandmanofTerra I've only just found your channel, do you guys do a deep dive into conspiracies in the lore, just because I was having a discussion with my mate yesterday and I was thinking that perhaps the confusion around the loyalties of the Alpha legion are a byproduct of them potentially being fully or in part controlled by the Necrons, it's only a thought but considering they like to use hyperphase weapons and have been drawn using Necrons swords then perhaps somewhere down theine they came into contact with a tomb world have have been infected with mind shackle scarabs?

[@SandmanofTerra]

@@kevinduggan201 we do cover that kind of thing definitely. And will get around to Alpha Legion for sure!