SCG Cincinnati Was A Mess

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The Mind Sculptors is a weekly cEDH podcast hosted by Callahan and ComedIan MTG.

[@SiusBleach]

You know the topic is serious when Ian had to wear sleeves

[@Naren25]

I thought the only sleeves Ian owned were dragonshields

[@scooberz2015]

Ian should charge extra for coaching while doing that random Kermit the Frog voice "I do CEDH coaching".

[@SmoothBrainEDH]

Posting comment again because KZbin gave me an error before. The Comprehensive Rules (CR), Infraction Procedure Guide (IPG), and Magic Tournament Rules (MTR) issue is weird. We've got CRs for formats like Emperor and Grand Melee that date back to 2003, but they never had IPGs since they weren't competitive formats. We've got IPGs for Two-Headed Giant, which I understand. It's the only official competitive multiplayer format but the rules are basically just 1v1 Magic with 2 teams. What's weirder for me is that Oathbreaker is a WotC supported format, but there aren't even CRs for that format despite it having significant rule variants with signature spells and planeswalkers as commanders. It's baffling that there's no IPGs or MTRs for commander though. Casual EDH tournaments have been a thing for a decade at this point. Given the lack of even CRs for Oathbreaker, it just feels like the Magic rules are behind where they were in the 2000s. I'd like to see IPGs for EDH and MTRs for full multiplayer formats soon.

[@cedhtv]

This videos has a really good message. Well said both of you.

[@batboibob4910]

Hi Mons 💕

[@TheFootballstar5588]

Sculpty gang, accept my offer to algorithm Jesus

[@crazykhespar8487]

5:55 Excellent thing to bring up. Everyone carries around a backpack with their stuff in it- Just put food in there that cannot damage your stuff. Like a pepperoni roll or two and maybe carry a redbull somewhere the moisture cant touch your cards.

[@crazykhespar8487]

Like 5 minutes of preparation can make you play more effectively all day, and feel less bleh.

[@Joolenplus]

It would have been funny if one of the precon players managed to top because the oracle players got less points ☠️

[@iAMtunaFISH]

Bro, imagine. I get moar point cuz my merfmin goed wide.

[@Joolenplus]

​@@iAMtunaFISHwidemen

[@FatstaxMTG]

I feel like commander in general needs some help and I don’t think the RC does much for the community besides boast they are on the committee on their various KZbin channels.

[@FatstaxMTG]

I do think they mostly worry about casual which I find weird. May be a hot take but with rule 0 being pushed as hard as it is bans should only be present in cedh.

[@JudgeBaldy]

People are trying, and it is frustrating from a judge's standpoint as well. I hope a change happens soon.

[@chrisjanus12]

I've got a worse point system for a cedh deck. I no longer go to this store because of their rules, but the way they assigned points is that one person won the pod, then points were decided in that pod based upon remaining life total when that player won. If a person won through pinging, the first person they pinged to death got 4th place and so on. If the game was a draw, then the person with the highest life total won the pod.

[@eriklarson6362]

That’s horrible

[@damo9961]

How to say they are stupid asf without saying "Hi, I'm stupid asf"

[@cdee34]

I feel like this discussion is really underscored by the fact that WOTC does not give a damn about competitive magic. Full stop. It’s not cEDH specific. It’s not multiplayer specific. They’re like Games Workshop now. And like games workshop, the burden of competitive play is going to be on third parties to solve because it makes WOTC no money compared to printing cards.

[@damo9961]

Hasbro is all about short term profits, bonues, and burning it all to the ground for more profits then bailing out.

[@bobthor9647]

​@damo9961 yes people have been saying that for 20 years

[@iAMtunaFISH]

RiP Winota. Always lucksacking into Magus of the Moon.... may you rest in piss.

[@Joolenplus]

Winotamen

[@moxcardboardtv8797]

Do you guys still keep in touch with any of the og mindsculptors? How's Sigi doing??

[@matthewmarlin4896]

Nothing will change with the way both WOTC and the RC do with commander format as long as “rule zero” is a thing. They already struggle so much with what “is allowed to be played” that they can’t even begin to handle rules management.

[@xxthevampirate]

Honestly commander is big enough to have multiple formats, after all wizards tried to do that before with Brawl. Having an actual competitive format and "casual format" would be good. If you saw SCG was running a legacy event you wouldn't register your standard deck, commander tourney makes some people who want to bring their fun strongest deck are going to join not knowing many of the cEdh staples, loops, timings etc.

[@matthewmarlin4896]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@xxthevampirateaside from WOTC not having any control over their largest format as the ban list is ran by a “group of third party members who have zero* ties to the company”, the fact that their largest format isn’t managed by them is just the tip of the iceberg of how something fishy is going on. Of the myriad issues from the council of colors changing a card to be Sultai instead of Bant because of personal reasons to how absentminded the rules committee is with issues ranging from “dockside is fine in casual as there is never enough artifacts or enchantments for it to matter” to Sheldon’s “we all agreed and had meetings regarding that mother of machines and the powerful Mirkwood bats are on the potential ban list! (Actually I never talked to anyone about either topic, please understand this is a personal reason)” the entire format, especially Cedh looks like a circus. Why are cards like Rofellos still banned when we have arguably better cards such as Selvala running around aside from him being on the reserve list? WOTC will keep kicking the can down the road to do anything to EDH as a whole unless they are in a do or die scenario, or in the most extreme case just take over the rules committee for better or for worse.

[@bardofsnow]

​@@matthewmarlin4896 just as a hypothetical counter point; I think it's better if EDH & cEDH were never formally managed by WotC because WotC will always go in favor of money over balance; and the current RC has no spine or semblance of balance in how they manage "their" format as they toe the line WotC tells them to. I don't even play cEDH, but I think a hard break from the RC while not tying into WotC would be the best format as a whole. Upcoming products and reprints be damned

[@yugioh1870]

I love the concession rules lmao

[@lisaparker271]

LOL I love the story about how a casual deck's enchanted evening won a game for someone who played their dockside right after lol.

[@Duskraven377]

As a player of both EDH and cEDH, this is one of the reasons why I keep saying the cEDH community just needs to do what duel commander has done and split off into its own format.

[@damo9961]

No, that would utterly destroy it. Then we'd have cedh AND competitive commander(which would be the new best cards legal in commander) AND high power AND casual AND god knows what else. Further fragmenting the playerbase is never a good idea.

[@Hard1sh]

If you split you'll still have people playing "regular" edh competitively no matter what

[@bobthor9647]

It's already split - they just share a ban list

[@tomdsims]

Really applaud that you both brought up the missing multiplayer rules. It's clear multiplayer tournaments are going to grow in the future and they need official support for these formats.

[@ModelOfAModernMajor]

SCG Baltimore's cEDH event was a mess. When I heard that they hadn't learned from their mistakes, I skipped SCG Columbus even though I live in Ohio. SCG Columbus was a mess, so when I heard about SCG Cincinnati, I skipped it even though it was in my hometown. No proxies? No Command Tower? Points systems?? That'll be a hard pass.

[@MsThatstuff]

Local cedh tournaments are not possible in my region the same 15 people will throw to make 1 person from their group. They openly talk about who’s taking the prize and it’s always is turning into a 2v1v1 because of collusion. Or 3v1 because they are promised packs. With collusion being such a problem in 4 man pods and judges not calling out the cheating it makes it impossible to carry the spirit of the game

[@josephanglin6664]

Good to know about how starcity ran their event. Already bought into scg Hartford, hopefully will be ran better.

[@chrisdammeyer4347]

That was.... a weirdly abrupt ending? What happened?

[@jakubvanek3789]

I would like to play cEDH, but i can not spent thousands of dollars for cards. Well i can, but i dont want to. 😂 I dont want to collect cards i just want to play

[@CptSaveABro808]

The only thing that should be cancelled is this woman’s contract, if it’s determined she’s is making personal changes that are not part of the deal.

[@bobthor9647]

You could just hire someone to judge , how do you decide if a play is dumb or kingmaking ? Its not easy - and it might be impossible

[@bobthor9647]

How would the new MTR rule for a missed trigger on Lotho, controlled by a player with 1 life please ?

[@djkatsuo]

Wotc doesn’t want anything to do with commander except for making cards for it.

[@DrBadby]

boosting the algorithm to pick up this vid

[@bobthor9647]

I've been playing for 26 years and never known what a MTR IPG is . 😊

[@MrNajie]

Does a no proxy event make the event, better, worse or just different. I would want people to play the exact 100 they want but I want your guys opinion

[@floridaman6982]

Paywalling players behind duel lands and other must play cards that make decks cost over $5k is a bad thing I think. But to keep things competitive maybe higher entree fees or more invitational events might be a good move as well.

[@Tspang42]

@@floridaman6982played in a proxy tournament for the first time two days ago. I only had 6 proxied cards to finish off my list cause I own a lot of cards. The combined total of those 6 cards were more than the rest of the list😂 that is so restrictive for the game and I’d say being able to proxy was so nice for so many people

[@bobthor9647]

It will never grow into a more legitimate format with proxies only

[@emmarose-w2r]

it cannot grow as a format if there’s no proxy rules at every event, people simply cannot afford to spend thousands on a deck

[@CokaShimoda]

Did Callahan hint at discussing Sheoldred later, and did not mention it again? Or did I miss it?

[@TheMindSculptors]

The part of the recording where Cal breaks down Tivot decisions got corrupted so it didnt make it 🥲🫠

[@CokaShimoda]

@@TheMindSculptors can I get the tldr?

[@TheMindSculptors]

@@CokaShimoda basically in this heavy Rhystic/Mystic meta, Sheoldred and/or Consecrated Sphinx are must includes in Tivit with how it pressure the table

[@CokaShimoda]

@@TheMindSculptors Neat. Is this a mutually agreed upon decision amongst the two of you? Guess I need to find a slot for the baddie in my Tivit list 🤔

[@TheMindSculptors]

@@CokaShimoda Ian is not as confident in Sheoldred as I am

[@DrBadby]

Do you talk to RC about that?

[@ryantomczak2248]

Have either of you contacted the commander rules committee or the commander advisory group? Since WOTC does not have the official say for commander I would contact one of them about this.

[@embergeos]

I think that it’s probably worth mentioning that it’s not necessarily the RC that should be tasked with putting together an official Multiplayer MTR or IPG. The CAG and RC were, by and large, not selected because of their deep and extensive judging history or TO experience (not to say that no members have that knowledge), but because of their understanding of the format and its philosophy. The burden of creating a Multiplayer MTR and IPG (or more likely additional sections of the singleplayer MTR and IPG) will fall on WotC, which means that the chances of having a good first draft out are slim to none, so look forward to that!

[@bobthor9647]

Imagine thinking its easy to design tournament rules for multiplayer. Yall should podcast a few offical judges and see what they think - its a complex set of rules issues - not laziness

[@TheMindSculptors]

(Fun fact: we *have* talked to a *lot* of judges and they agree with us. Thanks for the engagement ❤️)

[@davedussault8324]

I'm pretty sure multiplayer tournament rules have already been designed specifically for cEDH. It's just getting WotC to officially implement them that is the problem.

[@puntedagain398]

Could you put a link in the show notes to the in progress multi player MTR and IPG that you mentioned in the show?

[@PlayTheOtter]

Good episode, maybe a little short. But hey, it's free content ❤

[@PlayTheOtter]

Do you already know when the Patreon tiers get an update? Love the podcast

[@tomkaltofen7063]

I would love to see for which situations rules are missing?

[@imanimason5858]

Y'all's opening and closing Music is 🐐🐐🐐

[@sylorknag]

On the winota subject, ffs just swap out the kiki package for heave hitrers, and humans that do shit without her. Adriana, givinf melees to al your creatures is a good presence after Winota is gone. And ppl not killing the timnas drawing 2/3 cards every turn why freaking out at winota with one phoenix on the board is just soneting ppl will have to learn the hard way.

[@damo9961]

Winota is just a removal target now. Everyone knows what she does. Remove her once or twice and Boros has no way to get back in the race. She was good when people still underestimated her and scoffed at Boros. Just run a vanilla Grixis commander and do better.

[@wilfulbuckle13]

This is how the summit tournament felt.

[@nonamenoface9487]

Idk bowmasters and dockside are kinda trashing the format. Bowmaster, thassa's, dockside, rhystic, is in like 99% of decks. I feel like they're more common than basic lands.

[@SenorCoupon]

Far more common than basic lands, but I don't think that quantity of basics is a measuring stick for format health

[@plaidypus3911]

Just a thought, but it might be because people tutor these items pretty regularly, plus a single deck might have all those cards and a single basic land. Just stay strong until mono colored decks rise once more.

[@crazykhespar8487]

Mono colored decks are dead for the most part. Only a few can exist and even less show up.

[@bobthor9647]

It's competitive which means you need the best cards . And yes those cards are more common that basic lands because basic lands arnt good

[@nonamenoface9487]

@@bobthor9647 I get that it's competitive, but these cards lead to boring repetitive game play unfortunately.

[@dee-wreck]

Ceda will never be a viable format because proxies are staples. The sooner people realize that the sooner they can move on and just keep it a grassroots thing

[@carto1719]

BIG AGREE. That's why Legacy isn't a viable format either, obviously.

[@yugioh1870]

I love the concession rules and playing around them is why i like cedh

[@redrum923]

13:00 because you knew how to interact the right way when you started. stop whining.

[@yugioh1870]

So whats the problem with the regular 1v1 mtr ipg?

[@Hard1sh]

Allows for things like instant speed scoops and spite plays which normally aren't an issue 1v1. Most cedh tournaments outside of scg have scooping at sorcery speed and if you do scoop at instant the game is treated like you are still there until what would be your next turn. Obvious there are other reasons to make a multiplayer mtr but those are just a few reasons.

[@yugioh1870]

@Hard1sh ? That's not a problem with an absence of an mtr or ipg, that's you having a problem with the one we already have. There's no ambiguity there. And frankly playing around the potential for "spite" plays or concession is a part of what makes cEDH interesting to me.

[@yugioh1870]

Why are you opposed to proxy events?

[@Hard1sh]

They aren't they are very pro proxy

[@yugioh1870]

@@Hard1sh are they? They did just take a good while explaining that proxyless events were ideal.

[@edmundtetch3357]

Why would WoTC come up with a formal ruleset for a completely player driven and casual format? It's not their problem.

[@cdee34]

Because they needed a thumbnail to bait

[@jacobdavis9424]

They certainly don't have a problem printing a master set for the format and profiting from it.

[@damo9961]

Yip, this. They officially do not endorse or care about Cedh.