The 2017 NBA MVP was given to the wrong player for the dumbest reason imaginable

[@MetalheadSapling]

Secret Base: 17 Minutes of statistical analysis and reasoned argumentation Me, An Intellectual: But Harden is more annoying than Westbrook.

[@SimuLord]

Harden broke the record for turnovers in a season and set an unbreakable mark for uncalled travels.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

I guess people don't care anymore that Harden was at the time the worst foul baiter the league had ever seen. Players literally had to put their hands behind their backs to guard him it was insane what the refs allowed him to get away with. Now that he's older and on his way out people aren't angry watching him suck the fun out of basketball anymore they feel bad many fans and media people disliked him during his peak.

[@MetalheadSapling]

The Harden quadruple-double, never forget

[@UeProductionz]

@@CrazyxEnigma I would consider Embiid worse than Harden with the foul baiting. Much of Harden's fouls came from the rip through which honestly is just capitalizing on undisciplined defense if you ask me. Would you consider someone who's a hack/reaching all the time a good defender? Probably not. So I didn't care that Harden was baiting fouls off of these undisciplined defenders.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

and how 'bout westbrook's turnovers? did he average way fewer turnovers per game, or just slightly fewer turnovers per game? (specifically mentioned in the video how they BOTH had lots of turnovers, a natural byproduct of always handling the ball)

[@alonsomendoza9281]

you failed to consider the fact that I like Westbrook more so he was more deserving of the award

[@CoachOutah]

@@alonsomendoza9281 I wish more Russ fans would just come out and admit this. Instead I have to see constant tweets and TikTok comments calling him a top 3 PG of all time

[@user-bp1pu]

@@alonsomendoza9281 unironically what the voters thought. Harden fit the mvp criteria better but the voters flipped on him.

[@drubizzy]

Rus won the MVP because he literally drug OKC into the playoffs all by himself in the final month. Narratives matter in the MVP race. It's not the "best stats award". Rus in 2016-17 was also WAY more fun to watch while Harden was basically destroying NBA watchability.

[@factor.8795]

@@drubizzyit’s most valuable- harden was most valuable

[@drubizzy]

@@factor.8795 You should take a look at the +/- for when they were/were not on the court for either of their teams and get back to me. L take.

[@alexwilson7815]

If we are talking added value to a team, it is worth noting that per 100 possessions the Rockets were outscoring their opponents by 3.5 when Harden was on the bench, The thunder were being outscored by opponents by 9.2 when Westbrook was on the bench

[@alexwilson7815]

Thunder were 12.5pts per 100 possessions better with Westbrook on than off Harden made his team 2.4 pts per 100 possessions better

[@maartenvz]

@@alexwilson7815 Exactly, this video is mostly looking at raw numbers (total rebounds, assists etc) and has completely ignored advanced stats (on/off, clutch scoring), which clearly show Westbrook was deserving.

[@ArthPedro]

@@alexwilson7815 because he had a higher USG% lmao, Harden had a 34% USG, Westbrook 41%, despite that huge gap, Harden still had a better WS

[@CrazyxEnigma]

As I remember the race was basically neck and neck until the last month or two of the season where Westbrook had multiple instances of willing his team to victory via clutch plays and outplayed Harden in their final matchup. That combined with the KD abandoned him narrative, the triple double record and the media's own dislike of Harden(everyone seems to ignore these days that Harden being the number one foul baiter made him extremely disliked fair or not the media not liking a player always contributed look at Barkley in 90 and Kobe in 06 as other examples)is why Westbrook won.

[@Benjiizus]

I remember watching him drag that supporting cast to the playoffs. When he hit that game winner in the game he broke the record, I literally ran around my house

[@NBAThrowbackVideos]

m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6XElGeoZ5iXq6s Outplayed harden by losing in a blow out.

[@Wicha329]

Thank you! It wasn’t about stats. Westbrook WAS the most valuable player to his team in the NBA, he was the clutchest player in the league, and he dragged his team to the playoffs by himself after KD left. That’s all you have to say to counter this 17 minute long Harden propaganda.

[@gavinyeet5821]

Yeah, I remember Durant leaving the Thunder being a very significant point in the discussion. Without Westbrook that season the Thunder were probably contending for a lottery pick in the draft instead of a playoff spot. I'd still probably pick Kawhi though.

[@maartenvz]

@@Wicha329 Clutch scoring is a stat, and one that Westbrook dominated that year. He scored by far the most clutch points but also had an incredible +2.2 net rating in the clutch, whereas Harden was -0.8...

[@ejmartino3376]

In my opinion, the real gap between the two that season exists in the narrative. Harden had an unbelievable, yet, “just another” season, whereas Westbrook was carrying his team after being abandoned by the “cowardly snake” Durant. I’m not saying this is how it should be, or that I agree, but voters are humans who are susceptible to narratives and stories. The triple double line was an attempt to numerically justify awarding Westbrook’s season story.

[@-piras]

exactly

[@ajanalysis7742]

your acting like Harden's sidekicks weren't just eric gordon and clint capela

[@xavierb9061]

Kd left because offense sucked around him..russ took those guys..mvp

[@mydood9675]

@@ajanalysis7742 in 2016 Trevor Ariza, Eric Gordon (won 2016-17 6MOY), Clint Capela, Patrick Beverly (2016-17 top 10 for DPOY), Lou Williams (2016-17 top 3 for 6MOY), Montrezl Harrell, Nene was not a roster of scrubs lmao. That was a really good team. Obviously not like the 5x allstar warriors or anything, but those were really good roleplayers man.

[@mydood9675]

Westbrook also literally won the scoring title and had less turnovers per game than Harden while recording 2.6 more rpg. It wasn't ONLY the media storylines. He had a legitimate case even if you want to get super stat junky objective about it

[@asaptrav]

narrative is an important part of the award you didn’t really touch on. Russ nearly single handily willed his team to the playoffs (albeit a first round exit) less than a year after KD left for the greatest team of all time. I’d argue if this race happened a year or two later it would’ve been a different story

[@michaelijeh627]

Exactly. His numbers were more than good enough, so the narrative carried the day. For something like the MVP, the narrative is more important than the numbers

[@fredlarson2954]

It's a completely manufactured narrative. The actual narrative before the season represented the opposite. The Thunder had the 7th best odds to win the finals in the preseason. Houston had the 18th best odds. The Rockets were viewed as a worse team by W/L lines in the preseason as well. Harden led the Rockets to such a great season, it was completely forgotten how average they were expected to be.

[@tol5516]

@@fredlarson2954 I remember when they got D'Antoni I told my friends that he will put Harden to play point guard and he will go Steve Nash on everybody

[@SimuLord]

@@tol5516 D'Antoni was the perfect coach for Harden's game. Unfortunately, D'Antoni's fatal flaw was that he'd gas his starters by having them play 35-40 minutes a game in the regular season and that's how "missed 27 straight shots in an elimination game in the playoffs" happens. The Marty Schottenheimer of basketball.

[@andrewdorie]

That Warriors team was not close to being the best team of all time. I’d take the 86 Celtics, 88 Lakers, late 80’s BB Pistons, any 90’s Bulls teams, Shaq & Penny (+ Horace Grant) Magic and the mid 90’s Rockets who beat them, Phil Jackson Lakers teams, and even the 72 Lakers and 71 Bucks. I’d confidently put money on any of these teams in a 7 game series. That Warriors team depended way too heavily on talent, which is why they broke up so quickly. And they’d have absolutely no answers for a HOF level 5 like Shaq or Kareem.

[@mauricegarner3]

refusing to call the Thunder by name is a true commitment to pettiness. "Westbrook's organization" lmao Westbrook got MVP off his insane final week of the season, with signature last second game winners to secure his team's playoff seeding. coming into the season, Westbrook and the Thunder et al got sympathy for losing two MVP caliber players back to back, and his MVP campaign stood in stark contrast to the superteam in Golden State. yeah he stat padded and yeah his teammates let him grab rebounds, but there was likely no way someone else would've gotten the award even though LeBron was clearly still the best player in the league at the time, and Durant and Curry were arguably more intrinsically valuable individually speaking. narratives are what drive the MVP discussion at the end of the day.

[@SimuLord]

As a Seattle resident, I approve.

[@vibechecktsundere4912]

Nah as a thunder fan I’d say most of the fan base was okay with what he did. Most of that 2017 squad was either super young and underdeveloped or is out of the league now. His reliable “costar” was Steven Adams. It’s not really stat padding when that roster was genuinely terrible. Look at the on/off metric in the 2017 playoffs vs the Rockets. They marginally won the Westbrook minutes and were a horrific -55 in non Westbrook minutes. That’s inexcusable even for a team that was built around him. Even the rebounds thing I don’t get the criticism on. It was a coaching decision primarily since you wanted to initiate fast break offense with Westbrook off a board than Steven Adams, so it made sense for Adams to box out his guy and let Westbrook begin an offensive possession as soon as possible. Westbrook averaging a triple double over a season was a unique mix of Westbrook’s unique skillset relative to the point guard position and having a bad enough roster to have a green light.

[@saintfredoo]

you cooked lol they won’t respond

[@DemetriosHilton]

@@mauricegarner3 no actually that's a solid point y'all made as a Westbrook hater myself you're right.

[@RocksSocks-k2m]

Just because narrative is a part of how the voters make their MVP pick doesn’t mean it should be how everyone does. The point of this video was that removing the narrative surrounding Westbrook’s run his MVP candidacy is much weaker for that season.

[@AAdams-ke4is]

This is actually just 17 minutes of raw hater behavior lol. Without Westbrook, the Thunder grade out as a glorifies G-League team, and played like a top 5 offense with him. The team's +/- disparity was insane. Westbrook's PER was insane. His quantifiable clutch usage, FG%, AST/TO, and every other metric was quite high. Westbrook WAS the Thunder. He was the only engine keeping them not only good, but he was the engine that made that an NBA team. We've GOT to stop letting folks engage in revisionist history and cherry pick means of looking back at eras.

[@AAdams-ke4is]

Even if we simplify: Westbrook had one of the biggest +/- differentials of all time and one of the highest usage rates of all time. That is the raw definition of "valuable."

[@kimkatyaharley]

alex provides the reasoning and the, y’know, sources, that the reason why 16-17 russ won the MVP was probably because of his Triple-Double average. all the stats you provided (including AST/TO for some reasons) are out of context. Westbrook BEING the OKC Thunder (still the sonics in my heart) doesn’t mean shit unless he WAS the Thunder to an extent beyond Harden BEING the Rockets. also, as for Cherrypicking Stats, none of the stats Rubenstein uses are particularly, i don’t know, unusual? there were no weird splits here. all he does is present the value case; harden had a better overall season than westbrook. harden was a better shooter, had more assists and only a tocuh fewer rebounds than Russ. in the end, basketball is a game about putting the ball in the basket, and harden did that a touch better than westbrook. if you want to hate harden for vibes reasons, that’s fine. but you don’t really have a case here.

[@pierrenc]

Russell Westbrook, off of losing the 2nd or 3rd best itw at the time, led a team in a tough west to 45 wins BY HIMSELF while averaging a triple double. What are we talking abt here? U can say Harden deserved it but to say for the “dumbest reason possible” is crazy

[@SecretBaseSBN]

the emphasis on round numbers is the dumbest reason imaginable when not just westbrook but both guys had an assist/rebound combo not seen since oscar

[@maartenvz]

@@SecretBaseSBN Why didn't you include clutch scoring and on/off? Westbrook was far ahead of Harden in both categories (almost double in clutch scoring with a great +2.2 net rating in the clutch, while Harden was -0.8. Meanwhile on/off was +12.5/100 for Westbrook and +2.4/100 for Harden)...

[@reezySZN]

@@maartenvzmaybe because all that clutch scoring didn’t translate to wins

[@madisonbordenave4869]

This is maybe the worst argument for harden I’ve ever heard. The argument for Westbrook is pretty simple. He was far more valuable to his team than harden was while having grater impact on winning games Han harden. Harden’s on/off was +3.3. Westbrook’s was +62.5. His team was 22 points/possession better when he was on the floor and their defensive rating was around 38 point/possession better as well. Harden’s team was 7.7 points/possession better when he was on the court

[@TyBeTroLLing]

Harden carries to west finals. Westbrook was in Cancun

[@mydood9675]

@@TyBeTroLLing Regular season award

[@TJ-ik9on]

yep, valuable.

[@guidovalli7823]

​@@TyBeTroLLing Harden chocked against a Kawhi-less Spurs, and was blocked by Manu to get bounced in the 2nd round.

[@madisonbordenave4869]

@@TyBeTroLLing two vastly different rosters and offensive philosophies guided those teams. D’antoni had those rockets playing 2021 basketball in 2017 of course they were racking up wins. Westbrooks roster lacked shooting, spacing, and any other advantage creators. Oladipo and sabonis hadn’t come into their own yet

[@Jack-bg2li]

If you're gonna use advanced stats to make your argument here, Westbrook led the league in VORP and BPM by a pretty wide margin over Harden. Feels pretty disingenuous to leave out.

[@alexrubenstein3876]

vorp had otto porter above paul george and klay thompson and had mason plumlee and tobias harris above thompson and jrue holiday. it had tyler johnson above lamarcus aldridge bpm had danny green above klay thompson and had kyle lowry and mike conley above anthony davis and had otto porter above paul george think i'm feeling ok about leaving 'em out

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

Those stats are offensive load based. Russel had a 74% offensive load. Those stats aren't gagging impact

[@hiitsmeyou]

Saying “VORP and BPM” shows you don’t even know what these stats are. They are the same stat but one is rate and the other is cumulative. They also aren’t very good “advanced” stats since they’re based solely on box score and don’t input lineup data or tracking

[@Squesus]

Steven Adams was terrified to get a defensive rebound that whole season because Russ would yell at him 🤣

[@user-bp1pu]

@@Squesus russ statpadded rebounds and got an mvp because of it. Harden fit the traditional criteria way more. Love westbrook too, but harden got screwed and nba voters should be ashamed.

[@mentazmic]

Steven Adams would break him in half like a match. He did it out of pure selflessness

[@lunatik383]

Not really lol. Russ' defensive rebounding often directly led to pseudo fastbreak points. It was a part of their scheme.

[@user-bp1pu]

@lunatik383 yes and that scheme inflated his rebound numbers. He didnt get contested rebounds. Those arent points in westbrooks favor. Its cool, but using that to give westbrook points over harden is crazy.

[@vincewilson8969]

@@user-bp1puhow he stat pad when his highest rebound average was in Washington. Goofy

[@nersh46137]

He was celebrated for achieving a feat to a completely arbitrary level. You just described… sport? 🤔

[@danielwatson9903]

As much as I hate to say it, I think historical context matters for MVP voting. In a perfect world it shouldn't but I think rewriting every mvp to this point in the name of correctness is ridiculous. Edit: please keep making these videos though. I love it

[@DylanisWavy]

Oh, you mean when he dragged a team that featured 8 players that would be out of the league within the next 2 seasons (3, of which were out the following season) to damn near 50 wins in the West? The same team that ranked last in 3P%? The same team that just lost arguably the current second best player in the game and received nothing in return? And, by Westbrook, you’re referring to the player who netted 7 game-tying or go-ahead shots in the final 10 seconds, led the league in clutch points (6.2 on 57% TS), 4th quarter points (10 on 57.4% TS), and points per game in general? The same player who broke the unbreakable triple-double record and dropped 50 points (scoring 18 of our final 21), knocked Denver out of the Playoffs picture, and launched a 35-foot buzzer-beating 3 to cap it off all in the same game? Or are we talking about two different teams and 2017 advanced-statistic-breaking players? That MVP was more than deserved, but it doesn’t matter what either of us think about its validity because the trophy’s sitting in his house right now.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

do you not think i can cherry-pick any big harden games too? and i talked extensively about scoring proficiency, but i also included data from the first 47 minutes and 50 seconds if thats ok since basketball games are more than 10 seconds long

[@DylanisWavy]

@@SecretBaseSBN You can, but I’ve already unsubscribed, so I won’t see it.

[@crapin22]

you fr cooked with this one

[@catman-du8927]

​@@SecretBaseSBN Aren't clutch/4th quarter performance an important part of who is a better player? Sure, the whole game counts but someone being better when there isn't time to make up for mistakes is an important stat.

[@epicmarschmallow5049]

Most intelligent Westbrick fan:

[@33leel33]

James Harden glazing is real

[@3411Chad]

So is the James Harden hating. Not a fan at all, but he was amazing that season; it clearly should have been him or Leonard winning that MVP.

[@goat-s9m]

Cry more

[@deeshotcha2250]

@@3411Chad triple double 😭

[@ThatGuillermo]

Crash for best picture in 2006 is still the least defensible top award ever given

[@MilesBrownRoyalty]

Oddly that season was the most rebounds per game Steven Adam's ever had at that point

[@QuartzGolem]

Aint no way you just said that Harden was more useful on defense than anyone. This is the guy who just gives up on some plays and stands there watching it unfold. Edit: and the 2017-19 Rockets had a team perfectly built around him and a coach whos system was made for him

[@Nakapeesh]

This shoulda stayed in the groupchat

[@_jaded]

I’m sure this video won’t be controversial in the slightest bit

[@jaredbowie7193]

This is the biggest L secret base has ever posted. Go back to that season, it wasn't a close vote for a reason...

[@superssoul]

Good string of arguments but you really lost me with the "most maliable superstar of the NBA" statement for KD. As the great Charles Barkley says... Cmon now

[@assibeysteven4033]

I would counter with two things: 1) regardless of statistical analysis, the MVP has never actually always been an award about statistics and value alone. Sports are also about story and in 2017 the second best player in the world literally left his Robin with a poorly constructed team. That robin became Batman for a season. That Batman was an impressive Batman, and as such that Batman was given an award for it. On the other hand, you have Harden who, two years prior to this, was this close to winning the MVP, and probably should’ve won over Stephen Curry in 2015, but he whinged and whined and dribble the air out of the ball only to step back 4 feet before shooting a statistically improbable shot: ignoring every other teammate in the process. I am saying this to say, nobody liked Harden back then and few do now. Much in the same vein a lot of people don’t like Westbrook either , but back then people did. So just let it go. And two: you’re wrong, this MVP wasn’t won based on the most irrational reason. That would be Steve Nash’s 2006 MVP. I would argue every team deals with injuries, every team struggles with roster turnover. the marginal improvement in individual statistics, and the regression in both team, success, and seeding and overall team cohesiveness, meant that the award should have gone to someone else. Arguably Dirk Nowitzki. This MVP was so not about the triple double. It was about narrative., the triple double was the tangible feat that expressed what Westbrook could do in the absence of Kevin Durant. A quantifiable and measurable tome of the bias that was already held around the league that 1) Durant was weak and that OKC would be just fine if not much better off without him. Was that Narrative weak? Relative to other recent years? Arguably. I’d argue this was the strongest because these sports awards have and will never be voted for in a vacuum. if it were, phenomena like voter fatigue and LeBron’s snub for Defensive Player of the Year in 2013 could not and would not have happened

[@trevonriley5383]

This man doesn't like round numbers

[@jaychow3]

Ok this is just a hate video on Russ winning MVP. That MVP could have gone to both. I had Russ over Harden cause this was peak foul baiting Harden. As well as Russ avg a triple double with a bad bad squad. Harden had everything on offense. Shooters rollers and of course himself

[@julianmachin]

@@jaychow3 “I had Russ over Harden cause this was peak foul baiting Harden” holy shit bro 💀

[@MrCocoaNinja]

This is what happens when you have people not watching the season as it happened and instead, they go back to fit their narrative. That MVP went where it belonged.

[@Master-Debator]

Yes exactly, stats are deceiving. Stat head revisionist history fails to highlight what actually happened

[@Benjiizus]

For real. That season was magical

[@qzsno]

let’s not rewrite history westbrook 100% deserved that mvp 11 of the 15 players were out of the nba the following years, nobody expected that team to win 20 games, and he made history. also 82% win rate when he has a triple double it’s not stat padding its hustle, we all did he had a bad snit with the lakers but trying to pretend he didn’t deserve mvp is pushing it

[@Scoots1994]

He hustled to pad his stats.

[@fortynights1513]

Didn’t realize that 11 of his teammates were out of the league the following season. Was it more older players who retired or younger players who didn’t catch on with another NBA team?

[@SimuLord]

@@Scoots1994 That's the story of Russ's whole career, and why he's got an iffy-at-best Hall of Fame case (yeah, I said it) and a case for the most overrated player in the history of the NBA (it's him or Allen Iverson, another stat sheet stuffer who couldn't shoot a lick and cost his team as many games as he won them.)

[@fortynights1513]

⁠@@SimuLordHow about John Stockton for most overrated?

[@Tripster60]

​@@fortynights1513 younger

[@MrReese]

This has to be the pettiest, saltiest and most embarrassing cope I have ever seen :D.

[@MrUnforgivablehope]

2017 also had the storyline about how Durant left OKC and Westbrook was the underdog on his revenge tour.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

Why should that even matter? If the better player on courct they should win mvp

[@dionicio24]

Secret Base first miss 💔 you hate to see it.

[@mydood9675]

Right! I've been watching since it was SB Nation and Jon Bois definitely never made videos with such a condescending tone like this! This was a channel for stats fans, now spitting in our face for liking cool stats like triple doubles. Also the super snarky replies in all the comments really don't come across well. The guy who made this video is really treating secret base like his personal vlog channel. Very disappointing.

[@carpfisher46]

@@mydood9675it’s not really that deep though, people are allowed to have a different opinion.

[@churnedspy9882]

Yeah and the dude is in the comments too defending himself. Nothing wrong with defending your point, just don’t think I’ve ever seen any of their other people doing that lmao

[@goat-s9m]

cry more

[@blueferret98]

@@churnedspy9882 Cause none of them have ever had to hold an L like this lol

[@AkielBlackette]

Based on your video. We should also grade world records based on the distance between the previous performance and the new performance in question. Which as I’m sure we can agree is stupid. Something has not been done in 40+ years. It deserves an award. No hyper analytics or narrative driven statistic can dispute that it has not been done and has yet to be repeated since.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

again, 11 and 8 ALSO hadnt been done since oscar (and hasnt been done since). BOTH had assist/rebound combos not seen since oscar, so it makes no sense to invoke that combo for westbrook when it also applies to harden

[@ThinPillow23]

@@SecretBaseSBNThis is an entirely perplexing take for Secret Base. Everyone knows Harden had a great season. Everyone knows Russ’s triple double record was an impressive achievement. The channel that celebrates people like the Seattle Mariners, Atlanta Falcons, and Minnesota Vikings, franchise and players who Alex himself lauds for doing things no one else has done various times across those Dorktown episodes, can’t give any praise to Westbrook who led the league in scoring in a season where he broke a 40+ year old record is utterly baffling. Secret Base’s content above all else has taught me an appreciation for the amazing people and stories that can come out of the sports we love. Unfortunately, this video was just an out-of-touch guy using stats to throw a tantrum, acting completely counter to what Secret Base has promoted in the past. Really sad to see. I hope Alex rethinks making content like this in the future

[@joeydaniewicz6980]

have you considered that james harden getting second again is funny tho

[@UncleJJ899]

Can’t wait for the sequel 2019 James Harden vs Giannis for MVP

[@jordanwhattt233]

“No rational reasoning for Westbrook to be mvp” is an insane statement to take. 🤣

[@SecretBaseSBN]

cant be the assist/rebound combo, cant be scoring proficiency, cant be winning, and it cant be blemishes of harden's game, because they also apply to westbrook. so whats the rational reasoning?

[@Mrballerize]

​@SecretBaseSBN "Can't be scoring proficiency". He won the revered scoring title, which also contributed to him winning MVP; in addition to dragging a lottery team to the playoffs lol.

[@Master-Debator]

Russ was passing to Andre Roberson, Kyle Singler, Semaj Christian, and Josh Huestis at the 3 pt line. They consistently ran 2 bigs on the floor, with Adams, Kanter, Collison, or Sabonis at least 2 would share the court limiting the spacing. Additionally, the Thunder even tried spacing Domas around the arc and using him like Bosh in Miami. This team was garbage, and Russ 1000000% deserved the MVP for elevating that terrible team. Big L, secret base

[@fortynights1513]

Running two bigs on the court? If teams do that now, I’d take it they are running a more defensive set.

[@CoachOutah]

@@Master-Debator I remember how bad the thunder’s spacing was that year. But I also remember that maybe if Westbrook could shoot like the vast majority of PG’s in the league, they wouldn’t have had as big of a spacing problem.

[@Master-Debator]

@ as an OKC fan, a typical starting lineup that year was Russ, Oladipo, Roberson, Sabonis, and Adams. Decent on defense, atrocious for spacing. Watching Sabonis look lost as one of the primary spacers was brutal, and I’m just happy he got traded so he could flourish

[@Master-Debator]

@ agreed, his shooting percentage is his ultimate negative attribute. However, that year I think he shot like 34% from 3, not great but better than his later years. I fully embraced Russ shooting a thousand times a game that year because the other shooters were SO BAD they couldn’t even hit the open ones. To his credit, I think Russ also hit like 5 game winners that year

[@SecretBaseSBN]

pretty telling if you're reduced to listing guys like singler and and huestis (31 minutes all season) who werent even rotational players in lieu of, say, fellow backcourt starter victor oladipo (who when he was elsewhere the very next season happened to immediately and, apparently magically, become an all-star). i can say harden was passing to kyle wiltjer and chinanu onuaku, but whats the point?

[@MrJusticeShannon]

Secret Base, I agree with you about everything, EVERYTHING except this. The story of Russell Westbrook's career is not just the triple double but also dragging teams that do not belong to the playoffs. "Westbrook is your favorite player's favorite player," needs to be held in mind. It wasn't just the triple double it was KD leaving OKC. It was OKC leaving Seattle and only having one of their big three remaining. It was the clear sign that the era was ending. The MVP has always been in part a narrative story and the narrative here was fully in Westbrook's favor. This is not the MVP that Harden complains about. Harden complains about losing out against Giannis in the MVP race. If Harden doesn't complain about this MVP y'all are tripping. Like, did you watch Westbrook play? That is the definition of playing with heart on every play and that heart is what got them into the playoffs.

[@daltonfarris]

Yep, plus harden is an annoying player and less likeable than russ. It wasn't until 2018 that 16 year Olds and the media decided to start blaming russ for every problem. "It Rained on my wedding day, Brian windhorse - it's probably because Russell westbrook can't space the floor and tries to get triple doubles"

[@AdamJones-dy4zg]

​@@daltonfarristhat windhorst thing sounds 100% a light hearted joke

[@daltonfarris]

@AdamJones-dy4zg ik I was joking, but there were some real terrible russ takes, this was back when Ryan Collins was at his worst. I think Ryan Collins knows more than Perkins though.

[@offthegooppp]

Respectfully the video is about how rationally, one player was much better but because of narrative and convenience, they picked Westbrook. I def agree brodie is a much funner player but like that’s not what defines an MVP nor does play style.

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@@offthegooppp I fully disagree. D Rose, Giannis, Steph 2015, and Embiid all fall into the "statistically not the best," but definitely more fun, better narrative and in 3/4 cases the better liked player category. This MVP is not out of the norm at all.

[@Kaaaaaaaam]

Counterpoint: Westbrook absolutely deserved the trophy. If Harden had won, then good for him. However, that doesn't mean Russ was not deserving and that's all that matters.

[@hiitsmeyou]

Westbrook was closer in impact to an average All-nba season. He was absolutely worse than Kawhi, Harden, Steph, and Durant. It was the most emotional MVP vote in the history of the media vote era

[@deathlessgamer]

My argument is going to involve zero numbers. The MVP, Most Valuable Player, should go to the player that provides their team with the most value, hence the name. I believe that Russell Westbrook provided more value to his team than James Harden did to his. With Russell Westbrook on the bench OKC didn't do to hot, whereas even without James Harden the Rockets were still rather good that year. It's not about who achieves round numbers versus who didn't, it's about who provided the most value.

[@WorriedWombat]

Bruh, get over it. It's been 7 years. Stop whining. Bro's like "I'm gonna invalidate Westbrook's MVP with stats and logic 🤓☝🏻".

[@JoshuaEfron]

"It was the ultimate double standard.". Okay, but was it the ultimate TRIPLE-double standard?"

[@samuraiteensy8004]

I’m a big Harden guy, we went to Arizona State University at the same time (go Sun Devils) but we ALL know that what Russ did PLUS the narrative of KD abandoning OKC is why he won.

[@andrewarnold9751]

No. They still finished significantly worse than when Durant had been there, so that really wasn’t the narrative at the time. It was entirely the triple doubles. Go back and read articles from on the time. That was the entire narrative. Guys in 6th seed teams just didn’t win MVP at that stage of NBA history (and hasn’t for decades). If Russ had averaged two more assists, but two less rebounds a game, he’d have had an objectively better season, but Harden or Kawhi would have won because their teams were better.

[@samuraiteensy8004]

@ I’m not saying they were better. What I am saying is that the narrative definitely WAS Westbrook’s revenge tour in the media. That PLUS the triple doubles is why he won. Narrative always controls MVP. If it didn’t he wouldn’t have won it

[@user-bp1pu]

@@samuraiteensy8004 narrative usually was that winning is just as important as stats. It completely flipped on harden despite the stats being better for harden. The league had it out for him.

[@mydood9675]

Yes but this video was still a weird battle to pick. Westbrook had more ppg and more rpg this season. Simple as that. Would have preferred a video about the 2018-19 MVP race. I think its ridiculous that Harden didn't win that one, almost solely because of voter fatigue. I have never seen a scoring season like that in my life!

[@user-bp1pu]

@mydood9675 harden had a better record by a lot and more assists. And he was a more efficient scorer by a mile. Harden was a better scorer that year.

[@ganglyman22]

I long for the day Secret Base starts to use True Shooting Points Added in its videos

[@q.7556]

Yeah this is a really bad take, which is not something I would expect from the previously excellent journalistic quality of secret base. This takes limited nature is highly informed on the over reliance on statistics. While harden had an excellent season, Westbrook clearly deserved that mvp more than he did. This analysis does not account for anything outside of counting stats and efficiency. Westbrook had a much better defensive, offensive, and cumulative box plus minus than harder along with a far better value over replacement. Westbrook also had better defensive win shares, better assist percentage, better turnover percentage, and better PER on higher usage. While harden was “more efficient,” his impact on his teams success on both ends is tangibly less than Westbrook. Along with this, Westbrook did this on a far worse team and with less help than harden. Harden had the 6 man of the year, Eric Gordon, along with an excellent supporting cast that assisted with his playstyle. This included Lou Williams, who placed third in 6 man of the year. Not only that, Westbrook had a far better narrative. We forget the impact that Kevin Durant signing with the warriors had at the time. Many people thought competitive basketball had disappeared due to the inception of the greatest team of all time. And they were right, the warriors totally rolled to the finals and won relatively easily. Westbrook stood as a reminder of loyalty and commitment to his team, which could be observed by how his teammates talked about him. What did harden have in terms of narrative? Put plainly, not much. He had a good team with a great coach that played well but he underperformed during the playoffs, which Westbrook did not. Additionally, Westbrook received less points from free throws than harden, and turned the ball over at a much lower rate despite the much higher usage. Y’all dumb as hell for this. Be responsible journalists and at least revise history correctly, with lebron being the mvp.

[@kscxttxx]

The guy’s argument that “harden was more impactful on defense due to his size” made me laugh

[@unsaturatedbiscuit]

@@kscxttxx yea straight up showed that they did not actually watch that season lol

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Feels like it's very personal especially going by how often the SB account is replying and rebutting in the comments. I'm not going to pretend I watch this channel's content all the time(basketball is what I'm here for) but this is definitely an outlier in behavior from what I've personally seen over the years I've watched. Somebody else said this feels more like something a rage bait channel with 10k subs would do and I'm inclined to agree.

[@adrianoparatore7368]

I agree with every point made in this video yet I still believe Westbrook deserve the MVP. You left off the most compelling argument for Westbrook, which is that he was on a far inferior team. If you take Harden Off of the Rockets, they would be an average team that might even make the playoffs. If you take Westbrook off of the Thunder, they would be at best a bottom 3 team in the league. I’m not a huge fan of either player so I don’t have a horse in the race either.

[@barleymepodcast2301]

This. If he were passing to even average shooters, he’d more than bridge the assist gap between him and Harden

[@ajanalysis7742]

@@adrianoparatore7368 if you take harden off that damn team they would definately not make the playoffs dude, you really think a Clint chapels and Eric Gordon duo would even be close to making the playoffs dude

[@duyanhng8430]

you r seriously telling me a team led by eric gordon and clint capela can make the playoff in the WEST, gtfoh

[@hiitsmeyou]

This is a terrible argument for MVP, assuming it’s even true. Adding wins to a bad team is much easier than adding wins to a mediocre to good team. Add Harden to the 11-12 bobcats and he’s worth 25+ wins. That doesn’t make him better than he would be adding 15 wins to a much better team

[@smn2300]

Westbrook's record when he had a triple double that season was 33-9, a 79% winning percentage. That is the "rationale" reason you're struggling to find that justifys Westbrooks worthiness of the award

[@SecretBaseSBN]

lol harden's team also had good records when he posted good numbers, this is not unique to westbrook

[@churnedspy9882]

@@SecretBaseSBNbro why are you in the comments arguing lol. There’s nothing wrong with defending your point but this is not a good look for your channel lol. It comes across as insecure. You made your points, the people disagree. Gotta live with it🤷

[@hiitsmeyou]

Westbrook most often missed his triple double by way of getting too few assists. His team won when his team hit shots and thus gave him assists. Its not all that remarkable to say a team fared better when their point guard had a lot of assists

[@Croutonicknight]

@@churnedspy9882 What kind of logic is this? "Don't defend yourself when people are piling on in the comments, just take it. Not a good look bro." People are entitled to hate on his argument and he can respond. Pea-brained mob mentality fr

[@r4g3r_]

I’m sorry but this video just screams pettiness I’m so over MVP debates because it’s a vote for a reason If it would actually be handed to the true MVP of the season it wouldn’t be a vote

[@wavesofbabies]

"this video just screams pettiness" You've accurately described what this series' stated goal is, yup.

[@r4g3r_]

@@Ethan-tn4jc I'm just saying I don't like MVP debates because it's always the same stuff over and over again and the end result of every argument is the exact same I say it's pettiness because it's literally been like 8 years bro move on

[@r4g3r_]

@@wavesofbabies welp now i know lmao

[@foosball486]

As a Rockets fan, I would have loved for Harden to win the MVP that year in what was an incredible individual season. I think it's clear that Harden put up the best offensive stats that year, but his off-ball defense was actually atrocious. Russ' excuse is that he gambles on defense a good amount - Harden actually just forgot his assignment existed. I think it was a close race at the end of the day, and there's actually plenty of stats that show that Russ was much better than appeared than Harden that year too (e.g. per 36min and per 100 poss numbers). If there was a year for there to be a tie, this could've definitely been one of them.

[@shyadeny]

Nah forget about this one. Joel Embiid getting the MVP over Jokic because "yAlL aRe RaCiStS" is the biggest load of bs ever lol

[@CyberFaceCF1000]

I'll give the video this, it's more entertaining than watching Harden foul bait for an extire NBA game.

[@MrJusticeShannon]

Also, how did you not mention Harden's foul baiting? The man paved the foul baiting roads that Embiid ran on. Russ won MVP that year because everyone loved Russ skill, value as a player, narrative, value to team, and sportsmanship wise. Everyone and their mother knew that year was Westbrook's. And historically it's good for basketball that Westbrook won MVP that year because all of the OKC trio won MVPs in their own right while demonstrating the unique skill set they would continue to use and perfect for the rest of their careers. Yes only KD has rings but all 3 are and were clearly top 75 players and arguing between Russ and Harden over 2017 when that is not the year that Harden argues over is basketball blasphemy.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

1. if you believe drawing foulds/shooting free throws should be condemned, i highly disagree 2. if you do somehow harbor such a belief, how do you reconcile that westbrook only shot slightly fewer?

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@SecretBaseSBN the foul baiting narrative clung to Harden not Westbrook. There are "highlight" videos of Harden hooking his arm to draw fouls not Westbrook. Harden was the player known for kicking out his leg not Westbrook. Conversely Westbrook got his fouls by going to the rim and forcing you to foul him while you tried your hardest to play defense. One of those two is "admirable." Shooting through the foul for the and one has always been seen (rightfully so) as a sign of skill and strength. Conversely the two forms of foul baiting that Harden was well known for have been fixed by the NBA. It's 100% not the same.

[@DemetriosHilton]

Westbrook shot just as many ft as Harden try again.

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@DemetriosHilton I've already responded to this 1. No he didn't he shot fewer not a lot less but he did shoot fewer free throws. 2. There are James Harden highlights of him arm hooking players and kicking out his leg on 3 pointers. This stigma did not follow Russ. It did hold back James Harden from multiple MVPs not just 2017 (2015 and 2018 as well). Harden's play style held him back.

[@igorcosta832]

@@SecretBaseSBNcause we had EYES and we WATCHED the games? The ways westbrook got to the FT line were waaaaay different than Hardens lmao.

[@mauricealexander9975]

You are completely ignoring the narrative to the MVP season, KD left him in the off-season and Russ went nuclear on the league, Harden had a better team than Westbrook while Westbrook's team could not shoot a lick, Westbrook carried the team harder than Harden had to carry his despite Harden's incredible stats. I went with Westbrook then and I would go with him now.

[@masilomoshesh1475]

Are we gonna get a "2019 MVP was given to the wrong player" video as well?

[@MrJusticeShannon]

Say it again!!! Harden only has 1 MVP because on the court he is a worse person the Westbrook and Giannis. And I love Harden as a person but the foul baiting and the legality questions that surrounded the step back three clouded these years for him meaning that MVP races went to more traditional/likeable ball players and that's alright.

[@Densemankat]

2023 also…

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

But Giannis was better than Harden. Russ wasn't better than Harden

[@jaxjaggywires]

Don’t care. Westbrook deserved it and got it.

[@exwhyz7990]

I do think Westbrook wasn't the best player in the world at all, but it's hard to deny him the title of "most valuable." Even if he did blatantly statpad, he did get the stats at the end of the day, and he singlehandedly carried a not-very-good team to the 6th or so seed. Westbrook was still deserving of it, and Harden did deservedly end up winning the very next year, so it's not as if it was a total robbery that derailed a legacy. It was a mostly narrative award, but I do believe that sometimes a strong enough Narrative backed up by a player actually having an MVP-caliber season warrants them an MVP, especially in a year where most of the usual contenders weren't really there. LeBron was in the 3rd year of his regular-season decline (only to be interrupted the very next year), KD and Steph canceled out each others' chances, Kawhi was elite but never truly MVP-worthy, and everyone else wasn't seriously in the convo at all.

[@hirshja]

Get off of it dude. Steven Adams and Victor Oladipo are both better players than Eric Gordon and Clint Capela, yet the rockets had a better seed.

[@scottjeffrey3472]

LOL you can't even google which seed OKC was before taking the time to argue with a video on youtube?

[@4xpbroyalderp295]

Same can be said for harden tho, you think a big 3 of Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon and Clint capela was even gonna sniff finishing as the 3 seed in the west?

[@fredlarson2954]

The "not very good" team came into the season with 7th best odds to win the title. Houston was down at 18th. The Thunder barely bested their preseason W/L odds while the Rockets blew theirs out of the water.

[@jordylont1879]

The MVP should always go to the player that meant the most to their team. That could be a great player on a bad team. I hate the idea that it should always go to the best player on the best team

[@user-bp1pu]

@@jordylont1879 harden shouldnt get punished for winning more. He was just as important. The rockets were a bunch of role players and harden.

[@Imknowitall]

@@user-bp1puso was that thunder team. VO wasn’t all star version yet and same with sabonis. I saw Norris Cole celebrate when Westbrook hit that game winner, that team was spooky

[@gordonhuang93]

Failed to consider that Harden flops like a fish every time he was touched

[@Adalhaid_]

Do Todd Helton’s 2000 NL MVP voting next. He was the leader in WAR and almost every offensive category, but was snubbed simply because he played for Colorado.

[@tomdorsa3885]

2007 matt holliday was snubbed even harder for Coors related reasons too

[@Tommy_Montana]

I’m Kina ok with a Colorado player not winning MVP. When Matt Holiday left he was still a all star level hitter but didn’t come close to his Rockies numbers

[@fortynights1513]

To be fair to the voters, WAR wasn’t known then. But they definitely overestimated how much playing at Coors helped.

[@nocturne311]

Not really. Westbrook led the NBA in PPG while getting to the line over 10 times a game. He also led the league in PER, BPM and VORP. Westbrook played 81 games that season and the Thunder went 47-35 with their second and third best players being pre-breakout Oladipo and Kanter. Russ was the rightful MVP that season.

[@user-bp1pu]

Harden was a better scorer especially with efficiency, better passer, created more points and his team won 8 more games. These criteria are automatic mvp but voters voted based off of vibes and narratives.

[@DemetriosHilton]

Why nobody mentions how the playoffs exposed WestBrook that year BAD. Dude shot all the teams shots literally. Nobody brands that as "real" basketball that's why his stats were unreal. There's really a guy on the OKC roster that only shot one shot for a 5 game series. Nobody is even close in FGA to Westbrook regular or post season on that squad, stop the narrative that those guys didn't take huge loss letting Westbrook ball hog and pressure them to shoot for his assist totals. We ALL know Adams let him grind out his rebound numbers.

[@jagutichsachma]

​@@DemetriosHiltonbecause playoffs don't matter for the mvp discussion. And yes, i agree - teams gameplanned to dare Westbrook to shoot and he shot them right out of the podtseason. A year later too.

[@DIAC1987]

@@DemetriosHilton The playoffs also proved why the Thunder needed Kevin Durant----who left them for the damn Warriors.

[@hiitsmeyou]

BPM and VORP are the same stat. You can’t say someone led in both like they led in two distinct things. They’re also bad stats, but not nearly as bad as PER

[@mikeconnors8785]

Wow what a seriously petty video. I would expect this type of content from a rage bait channel with 10,000 followers but from a channel with 1.5M its honestly pretty pathetic. But I mean wow i was a math major for 4 years but holy crap i never thought about the fact that the number 10 is just another number!

[@mydood9675]

EXACTLY THIS!! And the snarky replies in the comments! What the hell happened at Secret Base that gave the weird rules guy the green light to do this?!?

[@orbis7934]

Yeah, take this stuff to r/NBA, not an actually good sports channel. Really disappointed here.

[@mrcnub]

​@@mydood9675 The fact that he just keeps posting is more entertaining than the video itself. I'm sure he'll convince *someone* to also be offended on behalf of poor James Harden. 🤣🎻

[@dirtreynolds1456]

yay, we’re litigating MVPs from the first Trump Administration, great. Russ had a significantly worse roster. I realize this next point is purely subjective, but Russ felt like he tried all 48 minutes while Harden conserved himself on defense. It’s hard to win MVP when the only people bolstering you up are nerds that care more about spreadsheets than people that actually played the game saying the other guy is having a better season. This waffling about advanced metrics and “efficiency” is why no one took Harden seriously. Too many lowlights of him not caring on defense before passing to one of his elite three-point shooting compatriots on the other end or chucking up a contested 29-footer after dribbling the air out of the ball is not fun to watch while Russ’ relentlessness and tenacity won the hearts of millions and the hardware.

[@user-bp1pu]

The advanced stats arent that advanced. They show the impact made. You prove his point. Westbrook won only off of vibes. Russ wasnt a good defender either.

[@duyanhng8430]

why didn’t anyone gave him the mvp the other 3 times he averaged a triple double then? Cuz ppl figured his schtick, it doesn’t led to team success

[@anthonyvega6532]

U forget arguably the most important aspect of voting which is that voters are human. When the stats are as close as they were between the 2, narrative and story trumps all. Also, “who wants to look at a chart while having a hoop convo”

[@AmariElijah-b5g]

Oscar Robinson was held in a mythical stature, because he averaged a triple double. Westbrook then does it while leading the league in scoring, yet you demenish it's importance simply because you don't like him? Oh okay..

[@SecretBaseSBN]

sorry who since oscar averaged 11 and 8 again?

[@q.7556]

Westbrook. He averaged 10.8 assists that season dawg, harden averaged 11.1. Bad take

[@SecretBaseSBN]

10.4 (his real number) is not 10.8, but even 10.8 is not 11.2 ... so yes, the fact remains harden, just like westbrook, also produced an assist/rebound combo not seen since oscar

[@q.7556]

@ oh pardon me I used per 36 instead of actual numbers that’s my bad

[@foodjones2456]

I think the inflated stats of today's game fool people into thinking what he did was overrated. Russ in his peak was legendary. You had to be there.

[@fortynights1513]

Is the pace slower then?

[@foodjones2456]

@fortynights1513 a little. Just less points, assists, and far less 3s back then

[@ItsDatCajunStuff]

Harden probably would stick up for himself in this debate but we'll never know because he doesn't play defense.

[@prodkap]

how many harden vol 8s do you have

[@TheSmokedance]

I like how this video basically disregards a 50 year old stat (the triple-double) while using very minutiae level stats like "effective field goal percentage".

[@SecretBaseSBN]

11 and 8 was a 50-year-old stat too, just one of the numbers happens to not be double-digits. placing that kind of emphasis on round numbers is irrational, thank you for proving the point of the video

[@SimuLord]

Let's also remember that the analytics debate was still very much being litigated in 2016-17. Everybody understands advanced stats now-even 2K includes them in their video games. That wasn't the case eight years ago.

[@Flyhr]

@@SecretBaseSBN How do you not mention the fact that Westbrook also led the league in scoring (31.6ppg), also led the league in Player Efficiency Rating, Box Plus Minus, and Value Over Replacement.... Westbrook certainly had a strong case, all Harden really had over him was the winning team.

[@traviskrueger9531]

@@FlyhrHe just glazing over Harden was clear the moment he tried to imply Harden was a more useful defender than Westbrook lol

[@hiitsmeyou]

@@FlyhrPER is a garbage stat that no one uses. BPM and VORP (they’re the same stat) also are just box score stats and the creator himself said it was busted and inaccurate with regards to Westbrook

[@TheSlurpeeMan]

Disagree, because there's a reasonable case with advanced statistics that Westbrook is the right choice over Harden, he did lead Harden in Value Over Replacement by a whole 1.3. Whether or not you think that's based off of him stat padding, sure (and that becomes a style argument), but it becomes less of a case of round numbers, and more of an objective assessment.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Didn't Westbrook's MVP season break Raptor or one of the other advanced stats? I vaguely recall one of them had to be changed because of him iirc.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

and harden had 2 more win shares than westbrook. but vorp and win shares arent what tilted the scales. the round number of the almighty triple-double is what did so

[@hiimemily]

Every single top comment so far was made before anyone could have possibly watched the full video. Just keep that in mind.

[@WesleyWilkins-qf2ky]

Ppl figured out that’s the only way their comments will get attention before it’s buried beneath a thousand other comments

[@scarfaceaceo]

@@WesleyWilkins-qf2kyppl putting that much value on KZbin comments is pretty sad

[@WesleyWilkins-qf2ky]

@scarfaceaceo Indeed

[@JakeSouza]

This take is hot garbage. Writing off what Russ accomplished when no one but Oscar has done it in 60 years…why do we not hear about how many free throws Harden took per game? Russ carried a terrible supporting cast to the playoffs in the loaded west. History will crush this take much like you are cobbling together a weak argument for Harden…who HIGHLY benefited from officiating rules at the time.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

1. so westbrook posted an assist/combo that no one else but oscar had, and harden posted an assist/rebound combo that no one else but oscar had. but only westbrook's should be revered? interesting 2. did westbrook take way fewer free throws per game than harden? or did he take 0.5 fewer free throws per game than harden? i forget 3. are you of the belief that a squad led by eric gordon and clint capela would've won 55 games and earned a top-3 seed in a loaded west?

[@JakeSouza]

The fact Harden was #2 in MVP voting means he was given props and his season was revered. He just didn’t win the MVP. Yes, Harden was a better scorer. But Westbrook broke a barrier. It’s like saying Roger Banister being the 1st person to run a sub 4min mile is not impressive because others had ran it in 4 min 2 seconds. The TRIPLE DOUBLE was a barrier that Westbrook broke. And to devalue that now when No one else has done it is short sided.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

again, harden reached an assist/rebound barrier that was just as historically unique and impactful. so considering how vast harden's advantages were elsewhere, that's a helluva lot of emphasis to place on the almighty round number, which is irrational

[@JakeSouza]

Rarely is there a season where there can’t be a debate over the MVP. For example Barkley over Jordan in 93 or Embid in 23 over Joker or Joker over SGA in 24… etc But of all the seasons to make an argument over the wrong guy getting it, the Westbrook does not square up. If the round numbers don’t matter..then why has no other player but Westbrook found a way to do it? Considering he had 4 triple double seasons in 5 years with the one MVP, it’s not a case of over valuing round numbers. Is a case a valuing historical numbers. YES, both had historical numbers. But the triple double carried more weight in that one year.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

we agree that the triple-double clearly carried more weight. what i'm saying is that that being the case when 11 and 8 was just as historically unique and impactful is asinine

[@hundredpercentjuice]

Imagine wasting time on this when Deion just talked Hunter to the heisman

[@birkobird]

It’s fascinating to me at the end of 2018 a very similar argument was occurring in Counter-Strike esports. Nicolai ‘device’ Reedtz was the best player on the best team ever seen, and Aleksandr ‘s1mple’ Kostyliev hit the greatest statistical peak of any player ever in the SAME YEAR. It even has the round number thing! S1mple’s Big Event Rating (hard to explain but it’s basically bigger number = better player) managed to hit the unheard of 1.30, compared to device’s 1.22, a difference which is almost meaningless when you consider that device’s teammates had a far higher average than s1mple’s. Eventually s1mple was given the number one, but they announced #1 and #2 on the same day for the first time ever just because the discussions were getting that heated.

[@Bareus34]

1:04 - that’s the reason. No need for this video at all. Triple-double used to mean something and Westbrook achieved it as the first guy since Oscar. Historical context matters whether you like it or not

[@SecretBaseSBN]

so then why doesnt the historical context of '17 harden ALSO averaging an assist/rebound combo not seen since oscar matter? why is it only that westbrook doing so matters? the answer is because of round numbers, and thats asinine

[@Bareus34]

@ because Westbrook assist/rebound combo was more impressive for a guard. Not to mention he didn’t have significant help around him after KD left. And then again - triple-double was the mark - not a different combination of stats

[@elbowgang9715]

​@@SecretBaseSBNcry more punk 😂

[@SecretBaseSBN]

harden didnt have a star teammate either, but still led his team to way more wins. the 1.86 rebounds per game separating harden from his own triple-double average dont more than cancel out his far superior scoring, passing/playmaking, winning, etc. sorry, it just doesnt. especially when 11 and 8 is just as historically unique an assist/rebound combo and arguably as or more impactful/valuable a combo

[@MaruhkatiGaming]

In the universe where we switched to Base-12 like Ben Franklin wanted, Westbrook never wins MVP.

[@giovannicouncil8622]

this dude hating on westbrook hard it was neck and neck but once russ hit that game winner to send the nuggets home and had a 50 pt triple double i knew it was over

[@mydood9675]

Its dumb to pretend that all of the value attributed to these stats was just because of the double digit gimmick. Theres also the fact that higher totals are just harder to achieve?? Acting like we should treat 8.1 rpg as just as impressive as 10.7 per game is silly. 12 players averaged 10 rpg that season. 24 players averaged 8 rpg. 10 rpg is just a higher tier of accomplishment based on how frequently it happens, regardless of the subjective "round" nature of the number 10. I would have loved a video glazing Harden's 2018-19 season where I believe he was robbed of MVP, but this video was dogshit. Disappointing from Secret Base.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

yep, westbrook had the rebounding edge, no doubt about it. so is it not silly/dumb to apparently just disregard harden's superiority in passing/playmaking though? as reflected in various scatter charts in the video (which also account for westbrook's rebounding edge). how 'bout harden's far superior scoring proficiency? you know, some of the the stuff that drove the winning of 8 more games? seems silly/dumb to ignore that stuff/act like 2 more rpg more than cancels all that out if you ask me

[@mydood9675]

@@SecretBaseSBN My main complaint is that in this video, you repeatedly said that there are no logical arguments for 31, 10, 10 being a more impactful statline than 29, 11, 8. I think there are definitely great arguments for Harden's 29, 11, 8, (especially the way he did it) many of which you presented in the video, but to claim that there are no logical arguments for 31, 10, 10 being better that don't rely solely on 10 being a cool number is disingenuous. The most obvious monkey brain argument that presents itself is that 31 > 29 and 10 > 8. That isnt relying on the subjective nature of "round" numbers. It's just pure 1 to 1 stats. Yes Harden's 29.1 ppg was more efficient with a 44.0 FG% compared to Westbrook's 31.6 on 42.5 FG%, but does that mean that Westbrooks 10.4 assists per game on 5.4 TO per game is more impressive than Harden's 11.2 on 5.7 TO per game? I just disagree that Harden's season is "objectively, statistically" better than Westbrook's if you remove the narrative around double digits.

[@mydood9675]

2 less ppg, 2 less rpg, 1 more apg... "The stats clearly don't lie, his season is objectively better you guys are just obsessed with the number 10!! >:(" lmao

[@SecretBaseSBN]

my point wasnt alluding to the raw trio of numbers. my point is that when you assess the assist/rebound combo (the thing most constantly referenced for westbrook) as the more-or-less wash that in reality it was, then what can you point to? you cant point to the scoring department, where harden was far more proficient, you cant point to the winning department, which harden did far more of, and you cant point to the harden blemishes department when westbrook had the same blemishes, etc. so what can be pointed to?

[@mydood9675]

@@SecretBaseSBN Westbrook scored more points -> Harden had a better shooting percentage. Harden had more assists -> Westbrook has less turnovers per game. Westbrook had more rebounds -> his center helped him get rebounds. Harden had more wins -> the much better 3pt shooters and better defenders on the rockets roster helped the TEAM win more games than the Thunder. Do you see how this is a healthy back and forth? We can keep "cherrypicking" if you want to call it that, but I think there is clearly more to the Westbrook argument than "round numbers" Harden losing this one is not the most ridiculous reason ever with no logical backbone to it. 2018-19 on the other hand... that one hurts

[@yup2393]

Only counter argument I can make here is that this video completely removes the context of Harden’s and Westbrook’s team. That Rockets team was considerably better around the edges than that OKC team; to imply that that Rockets team wasn’t great because of who the “Robin” is, while ignoring Westbrook’s “Robin” is disingenuous and flatly just incorrect

[@SecretBaseSBN]

oh no problem: westbrook's robin was victor oladipo, a man who when he was gone the next season just happened to be an all-star 55 wins with eric gordon as robin seems to pretty clearly be a far bigger accomplishment than 47 wins with oladipo as robin (and there were certainly other good role players too like the discussed steven adams). do you disagree?

[@burro606]

​@@SecretBaseSBNyes absolutely cherry picking Oladipo who was bad that year and injured, because he had a couple good all star years in the east is crazy look at the full team rosters rockets were soooo much better that OKC team wins less than 20 games without Russ I watched all 82 they stunk

[@benjaminsymon5165]

​@SecretBaseSBN a team is made up of many players. Not just a Batman and a Robin. Would you disagree that the Celtics last year had a deeper roster than Dallas even though the top 2 players from each team were evenly matched? The rockets had two great bench scorers in Lou Williams and Eric Gordon. Clint was a solid starter. Mike D'antoni was their coach. They had two more double digit scorers in Ariza and Anderson. Pat Bev as a great defender. They were pretty stacked. Im not saying OKC didn't have good players around Russ, but this Robin argument is very dishonest imo

[@Master-Debator]

@@SecretBaseSBN I respectfully disagree, and I will die on this hill. Having the whole Robin argument is useless because Batman and Robin don’t win 🏀 games, teams do. The thunder top 8 was Russ, Oladipo, Roberson, Sabonis ( as a wing/floor spacers!!), Adams, Kanter, Taj Gibson, and Doug McDermott, with some bench appearances by Abrines and young Jerami Grant. Houston’s top 8 was Harden, Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, Pat Bev, Ryan Andersen, Lou Williams, Capela, and Sam Dekker with Nene and Montrez Harrell coming of the bench. You are being disingenuous if you can look at those and see similar/ equal value, especially in today’s modern game. One team is constructed for the 80s and the other was constructed for modern times

[@Master-Debator]

@ I’m glad I’m not alone, I hate bashing my favorite channel but this Russ slander can not stand

[@goldenstatewarriors9418]

A good conclusion with the worst possible argument supporting it. It would be much better if you just talked about Harden’s efficiency rather than pretending you didn’t understand why the number 10 is important in a base 10 counting system.

[@SecretBaseSBN]

so is 10/10/10 a better statline than 30/30/9? or does nuance matter?

[@lucaslonchampt613]

I personally always believed that Kawhi Leonard should have been the 2017 MVP

[@prod.snqwfall1347]

Came straight to the comments to find my corner of this hill. Yes, yes, yes…

[@philippeduchamp3660]

I totally agree

[@fortynights1513]

Why Kawhi over both?

[@lucaslonchampt613]

@fortynights1513 Averaging 26 points per game with the Spurs on high efficiency, good rebounder for his size, good assist to turnover ratio and the best defensive player in the league. A 2-way superstar on a 60-win team, that has very good stats on good efficiency

[@fortynights1513]

@@lucaslonchampt61360 wins is more than both I believe. How was the rest of his team at the time compared to Harden’s and Westbrook’s?

[@SidneyFalco12]

Kawhi should have won MVP in 2017

[@joelman1989]

I’m starting a new movement to fight back against societies obsession with round numbers. We will be picketing outside of the White House next year. We’re also going to abstain from celebrating birth days, anniversaries of any kind etc. out of protest.

[@sdelmonte]

Wow, this is judgey. Let Westbrook have his moment instead being a joyless pedant.

[@Ethan-tn4jc]

Wow, this is judgey. Let Secret Base have their moment instead of being a joyless pedant.

[@mark2220]

@@Ethan-tn4jc You make a good point, SB should have never made this fucking video. Good call.

[@paulorodrigues170]

Alex: Nice analysis Me, an NBA expert: Westbrook's aura > anyone

[@Toeknee994L]

I only saw the title and wanted to say HARD AGREE. Westbrook is lucky Embiid got his pity MVP or else we'd remember him as the worst MVP.

[@LadyAnnaMindpretzel]

Idk. As a Rockets fan, I’m finding it hard to get offended over this MVP in retrospect. We beat Mr Triple-Double in the first round of the playoffs, sure, but then we were eliminated by a Kawhi-less Spurs team in humiliating fashion. Everyone who preferred Russ or Kawhi was feeling pretty vindicated after Game 6, and you know, after watching Harden shoot 2-11, I wasn’t really in the mood to argue. I second the argument that it shoulda gone to Kawhi. (This isn’t even bringing up the fact that people were sick of Morey-ball. If I wasn’t from Houston, I prolly would’ve hated it too.)

[@SecretBaseSBN]

its a regular season award, but as you alluded to, harden wouldnt have even had the opportunity to shoot anything-for-anything against the spurs if it werent for him leading his team to a decisive series victory over westbrook's team in the first place

[@LadyAnnaMindpretzel]

@SecretBaseSBN Yeah I was feeling pretty good about dismissing Russ’s triple doubles after went won against him, but was humbled immediately by the Spurs. I agree with your point about Russ cannibalizing stats from other players, for what it’s worth. There were a few dissenting writers (including Zach Lowe, I think?) who were calling it out at the time. Speaking about Harden in particular, I was more offended by people trying to discredit what he and the Rockets were doing in 2018.

[@MilesBrownRoyalty]

Westbrook player amazingly that season. That's why he won. The triple doubles and leading the NBA in points is just proof of that amazing play

[@2kbeast70]

17 minutes of nothing what a watse

[@adampeddie2997]

Love your videos, but I completely disagree. Westbrook's advantage in turnovers is "negligible" but Harden's in efficiency is so much. Lets not consider how Westbrook's advantage in rebounds is so much more than Harden's is in assists. And it isnt just cuz his teammates wanted Westbrook to get a triple double: the eye test showed how much more effort Westbrook put towards rebounding than Harden. The scoring efficiency is great, but this is the season after Westbrook lost KD and had to catry everything by himself. Wins are not a stat and yet that is alluded to constantly in this. And to just say that any argument for Westbrook is irrational is so ridicul

[@adampeddie2997]

-ous. He literally led the league in value of replacement player (VORP).

[@SecretBaseSBN]

you dont believe harden's advantages over westbrook in scoring efficiency metrics like points per shot, efg%, and ts% are significant? also, your team is your team, regardless of who was or wasnt on it in a different year. if prime mike jordan had played for the '16 rockets and then left, that wouldnt have inherently rendered harden's play with eric gordon and clint capela as his best teammates any more valuable. westbrook's team won 47 games with that supporting cast. winning 47 games with that supporting cast in a universe where kevin durant never existed wouldnt have rendered westbrook's performance any less valuable. the reality is in the wake of durant's departure, neither westbrook nor harden had a star teammate, but like i said, even if harden had had one the prior season, that shouldnt matter. he won 55 games with that supporting cast, regardless of who was or wasnt on the rockets in a different year

[@SecretBaseSBN]

you're alluding to a metric that had otto porter above paul george and klay thompson and had mason plumlee and tobias harris above thompson and jrue holiday

[@adampeddie2997]

​@SecretBaseSBN Harden certainly had the scoring efficiency, but imo, pts/game is far more important over a full season than eFG% and likewise stats. Harden is certainly very efficient, but with Westbrook leading in volume (so much so that he led him in pts/game) I find that much more compelling than the fact that Harden did was a better per shot shooter (on much fewer shots)

[@adampeddie2997]

​@@SecretBaseSBNWhile I think your point about teammates is fair, it should be noted that Harden literally had the 6th man of the year on his team. And maybe the reason Harden was so far up there in assists was because while Westbrook had a higher assist%, his teammates were missing their shots. AND HE WAS STILL WITHIN THE MARGIN OF ERROR OF HARDEN'S ASSIST TOTAL!!!

[@Bigedub101]

Man no one cared cause we all knew who was winning the prize. Plus Hardens style of play was atrocious to watch.

[@MrJusticeShannon]

@@Bigedub101 THIS. Garden's style of play was extremely frowned upon. The arm hooking and the leg kicks on 3 point shots were a mark on the game and a mark against Harden.

[@mr.mister5086]

Finally someone that can put my argument into coherent words

[@JamesJordanbestnetworkeralive]

This is straight hate. Dude averaged a triple double after KD left. Was hitting game winners & straight up dominated that yr

[@DemetriosHilton]

Huh did you listen to the video, all objective takes. Your take is subjective. Harden hate at its finest. Nobody is hating on Westbrook dawg😂. Bro didn't win 50 games that year and got gentlemen swept by Harden in the playoffs ,whats to hate? Only thing i hate is that KD didnt leave that guy sooner.

[@MikeBeltMikeBelt]

He has never "dominated" anything but controversy throughout his entire career.

[@drubizzy]

@@DemetriosHilton The MVP is a subjective award.

[@DemetriosHilton]

@@drubizzy true but it's no hate just objective arguments

[@august6281]

AGREE, same with the 2023. i don't even like choke diva Harden. I like Westbrook's intensity and how he at times defended the opposing team's superstars on close games especially down the stretch. But when i saw how INORGANIC his TDs are Okc, i became not a fan. Cherry pick rebounds, rebound obviously given by Adams and Kanter that time, rebounds he got by intentionally leaving his man who was shooting just to be on a favorable position for rebound, and those FORCE ASSISTS. Like once he drive and kick, his teammates SHOULD take the shot or else he will get the ball back and repeat, drive and kick.

[@jimmyfeeney4536]

This video is just 17 minutes long of an 8 year long grudge justified by making a conclusion and working backwards to justify it.

[@jimmyfeeney4536]

This video also could have just been a 45 second long short

[@DemetriosHilton]

How😂😂

[@mctheplaywright]

You’re looking at stats in a vacuum so you can make an engagement bait hot take. I think one could make a case for either Harden or Westbrook as MVP. But, one pick or the other is only insane void of context. I’ve come to expect better researched work from SB, this feels like a first draft.

[@user-bp1pu]

@@mctheplaywright the context is that you need a top 3 seed to win usually but that was thrown out the window for westbrook because voters hated harden. Harden's stats were better too. His scoring efficiency was way better.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

​@@user-bp1puHarden was also terrible to watch and the worst foul baiter I had ever seen at that point(I'd argue even today as bad as it is peak Harden was worse). That's getting lost in these conversations that only talk about stats and stats have never been the be all end all narrative has always mattered and Westbrook had the perfect narrative to go with doing what hadn't been seen since Oscar Robertson.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

​@CrazyxEnigma how doesnthat mean Harden was less valuable tho?. Because tho free throws make him more valuable than Russ. It's shitty looking but if you using that means you don't how this game is played

[@CrazyxEnigma]

@@taptiotrevizo9415 It means Harden wasn't liked because of how he played fair or not whether the voters like the player or not it impacts the vote and the voters had been sick of him for years already he got left off All NBA entirely a couple years earlier despite clearly being an All NBA caliber player statistically because of his antics. He got his MVP a year later so it's not like his career was forever damaged or anything like that. Personally I think Harden and that playstyle he got away with and was absolutely terrible to watch far worse then the slow grindy games of the early 00s is directly responsible for all the foul baiting that's done by so many players today and is ruining the game.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

@CrazyxEnigma Not even Harden fan I think the guy was overrated. Idnt he should have won over Giannis in 2019. But in 2017 he was clearly more valuable than Russ and voting for Russ is a perfect example on why accolades are completely shitty ways to rank players

[@Phoenix-MX1]

Secret Base has been really whack lately

[@ianrowland463]

Downhill

[@RaziuddinAhmed]

Yeah i have never seen them get into arguments with fans in the comments section but in this video.... The guy's replying and arguing with a lot of folks

[@hipstereagle6050]

In hindsight it’s insane that the MVP race in 2017 went down to Harden and Westbrook since both will go down in history as big game losers who put up irrelevant stats. This era was all about LeBron vs the Warriors and someone from either of those teams deserved MVP more

[@ArthPedro]

Mf what

[@fortynights1513]

Not sure why LeBron wouldn’t have been in the discussion, but in 16-17, Steph and Kevin Durant might have cancelled one another out.

[@hipstereagle6050]

@ I understand LeBron not winning over curry in 2015 & 16 but since kd and Steph canceled each other out LeBron deserved them in 2017 and 2018 simply bc if I had to pick one player to start a season with both years I’d pick LeBron

[@fortynights1513]

@@hipstereagle6050Who would you pick between Westbrook and Harden?

[@hipstereagle6050]

@@fortynights1513 Well since LeBron Steph and KD aren’t optional I guess I’ll go with harden for the regular season over Russ

[@Go_Wit_Da_Flow]

When you choose to overlook Westbrooks historical feat and brush it off as stat padding to make a case for Harden who manipulated the game to get to the line more than anyone in the league, then you're just a lost cause and should rethink your argument for this take. Harden had an entire system built around him to be as efficient as he was. Russ had just lost KD and had an unbelievable winning record when he got a Triple Double. Making the playoffs in the process. The fact that a higher seed should always win MVP is also a dumb take. It's not too late for you to delete this video. 🙄

[@user-bp1pu]

@@Go_Wit_Da_Flow harden had eric gordon and a bunch of role players. He was the system that made the great. His roster was better fitting yes. But harden elevated all those guys.

[@kjv35]

@@Go_Wit_Da_Flow does being the guy at the center of an entire team's scheme not make you an extremely valuable player? I would argue that if Harden is good enough to be that efficient, even if it's by design, that means he's probably one of the best, and it definitely at least puts him in the conversation for MVP. I'm curious to know your thoughts. Or maybe I should say "It's not too late for you to take down this comment?" 😂

[@AnonymousRandomGuy006]

Westbrook’s biggest hater

[@Bran-Da-Don]

He didn't win because of the triple double. He won because Kevin Durant pissed off every single media pundit, personality and sportswriter when he went to Golden State. Those are the voters for MVP and that was their way of saying F-you to Durant.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

And those reason are the dumbest in history.

[@IamQED]

4:18 For a brief moment, I thought you were proposing a new statistic: beards per game.