Shame belongs to the Oppressors - Jenny McGrath

Today I spoke with Jenny McGrath, who grew up exposed to Christianity, placed her faith in Jesus at a young age, and became very active in overseas missions, but ultimately deconverted as the truth claims of Christianity fell apart.
We touched on many topics, including:
• Growing up being homeschooled and spending a lot of time in church.
• At a young age, asking Jesus to come into her heart, and then repeating that process to ensure she was really saved.
• From a young age, being concerned about the eternal state of her friends.
• Focusing obsessively on being honest, good, and pure so that she could be right with god at all times, but still feeling dirty and wrong all the time anyway.
• Getting a purity ring at age 13, leading her to focus even more on honoring god through chastity, but also feeling more shame than ever.
• Becoming disembodied as her nervous system reached critical stages of "fight or flight" and led her to disassociate from the perceived spiritual threats.
• Being taught that she could not trust herself or her body, but finding a safe place to feel more embodied as she did competitive dancing.
• After an experience with a sexual predator, doubling down into how much she needed to work to be good and overcome her shame of feeling like "soiled goods."
• Sensing that god was crushing her as a way to punish her for her sins and refine her.
• Doing missions in Uganda and South Africa to take her spiritual sacrifices and outreach to the next level.
• At a secular school, being free for the first time to truly question her white, heteronormative theology and worldview.
• Learning to see people's humanity and individual journeys instead of seeing them as a project and someone to "save."
• Realizing that she had not been taught about autonomy and consent in relationships, especially in the context of patriarchy-based courtships.
• Deconstructing her faith as she learned more about the evolution of the Jesus character and the way the early church used power and violence to force people to adopt Christianity.
• The importance of health sex therapy to heal from purity culture.
• The importance of teaching body and thought autonomy to the next generation, without threats or coercion, and with the necessary resources to make informed decisions.
• Moving past the good spirit / bad body duality that was prevalent from her Christian background.
Many thanks to Jenny for sharing her story and insights!
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Connect with Jenny!
www.indwellmovement.com/
IG: @indwell_movement
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Mentioned in this video:
puritycultureresearchcollecti...
Books by Bart Erhman
www.amazon.com/stores/author/...
The book "Constantine's Sword" by James Carroll:
www.amazon.com/Constantines-S...
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Check out the other projects I'm working on and find other ways to connect with me:
linktr.ee/harmonicatheist
Tim may be reached on FB (preferred) at: harmonictim
Or by email at: [e-mail]
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Thanks!
--Tim
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Ending music by Kazuya / Eyal Raz, "Friends"
artlist.io/royalty-free-music...
• Friends
_________________________________________
If you are facing emotional distress, please call 911 or the National Suicide Hotline
1-800-273-8255.

[@trilithon108]

When she said that she saw her brother as a 'project' before and now she's a 'project' for some family members, I could relate. My brother-in-law and now my sister are busy shunning in their need to help me become saved. 😢 😮

[@DM-he1ug]

Coming from a (conservative, European) JW background, I find your interviews amazing. The USA Bible-belt fundamentalist indoctrination is all new to me, and quite a revelation...

[@17...20]

Welcome. We're all in this together 😊

[@Venusbabe66]

The JW's were created straight out of the USA bible belt fundamentalists using exactly the same intense indoctrination practices.

[@AnitaSmile4]

"Why am I so in love with my captor?" What a great question!!

[@deborahcharles9906]

Great interview! I have been deconstructing for a few years now and was at Moody the same time Bart Ehrman was! The hardest part is lost community. I have tried to go to a church occasionally and it is just so foreign to me now. I am still waiting for someone to start the "First Community Church of the Deconstructed". Thanks for what you do Tim! P. S. I still believe in a Divine Source. Just not religion and the God that we have created in our image. My parents try to "witness" to me and are also afraid if you don't go to church...you must no longer be "saved"!

[@rach3862]

Fellow Colorado Springs YWAM survivor here! So glad we both managed to get out. Your story is so powerful and relatable to me, thank you so much for sharing

[@Dutchluthier]

Great interview! As a craftsman I can say the writer of the "Potter and Clay" comparison doesn't have a clue about how to work clay. A good potter is in 'conversation' with the material. He looks and feels how it reacts on his manipulations. You can't just take any type of clay and just for it after your will. Every material has its own characteristics and possibilities. You feel how thick the wall of a pot has to be, otherwise it collapses. Sometimes you have to add water, or other sediments to make it dryer. Adjust the shape after the material and function the ceramics will be used for. Sharp corners may look beautiful, but they are likely to create internal strain while baking. A true craftsman will have a conversation with his materials to make something truly wonderful. This is a universal principle in mastering a craft. I'm a luthier, woodworker who listens to the natural tendencies of the wood. No two trees are the same, so the wood will also have different properties, even within the same species. The same for a blacksmith who chooses certain types of steel and works them at their optimal temperature. Or a welder who chooses the order of his welds to minimize internal stresses in the workpiece, otherwise it will tear itself up with age. If you force the material to bend to your will, it will sooner or later fail or break.

[@helencahn7293]

Yet again, a superb interview that was so informative and eye-opening!! Thank you to both of you. When I was young, I saw from the outside of religion how destructive purity culture was. At the time, I interpreted it as hypocritical because so many Christian girls got pregnant in their teens and then swept into marriage despite how unready they were. Now, I grieve for all those young people who were subjected to such a toxic ideology.

[@dorothyhusen6718]

Wow! Great Interview Jenny and Tim . I related to so much of Jenny’s story. Amazed at how I keep learning with every person who shares their deconversion story.

[@letahamilton]

Seattle person here. The whole Mars Hill thing was crazy. We have a half built Mars Church here that never got finished because they fell apart before it could be completed. The guy went to Texas, right? And started up a new cult there.

[@helencrewdson4392]

Wow what an interview. Thank you to you both ❤

[@sharongood8257]

I appreciate your thoughts on slavery. So many Christians avoid this topic because Yahweh obviously condoned it, just one of the horrific examples of a god gone mad.

[@lilafeldman8630]

That's so crazy, what she experienced in Uganda, when the people said that they were descendants of ham and therefore cursed. But that's actually something that people taught for many years. The descendants of ham included Kush and Canaan and presumably the people that settled down into East Africa. So I guess it's assumed that all black people descend from that line. And yes for a long time that's how white Western Christians interpreted the verse. That the descendants of ham were cursed that needed to be rescued by white European Christians.

[@annmariethompson4587]

Keep up all your fantastic work Tim! Love hearing these stories of leaving the fold

[@Johnwick-wi8zw]

Great show mate .❤️❤️❤️👍👍👍

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Another great interview Tim !! What is amazing about these presentations is, not just how inspiring the deconverted folks are that you interview, but how your journey in life was. In particular, you comment about seeing god in everything (at 39:00 in particular) was very revealing. It is also my perception that there is "god in everything", but not the architype found in the bible or expressed by religion. What I think is a "gift" is the recognition of how amazing *creation* is. And a better revelation is that there is NOT an anthropomorphic creator that made this, rather, we are simply a part of a colossal "matrix" more wonderful than we can imagine. And we can only be appreciative of it by trying to understand it "truthfully". Our use of reason, becoming knowledgeable, our understanding the power of abstraction and our being empathetic is what allows us to recognize that really understanding existence. Alas, it would seem our maturity is akin a three year old understanding what geography is. Those of us who search to be enlightened DO, I believe, become more mature.

[@Eyesopeningheartrealigning]

That was an amazing interview, thank you both so very much. So much to go through, relate with, helps to understand what needs healing ❤️‍🩹 from. ❤😢😅😊

[@montagdp]

I can definitely relate to Bart Ehrman's work being instrumental in deconstruction. I don't think it's possible to honestly interact with secular scholarship and remain an evangelical. The things evangelicals believe are just not true.

[@trilithon108]

I watch Bart and Megan weekly. 🎉

[@andyh5666]

How do we break this cycle of wicked child abuse? When even esteemed folks such as yourselves were in the game of preaching to young at one point or another. What about todays cohorts experiencing the same? Hopefully they get to see these messages and vids.

[@joeclark3149]

Tim I really enjoy your channel. Theres a line in the song “Name”by the Goo Goo Dolls “And don't it make you sad to know that life is more than who we are?” When I heard the words of this song it reminded me of how my belief system affected me. I was sad at first to realize it wasn’t true. Ritual practices and ritual stories can lead to ritual thinking. I think being out of the practice is what makes me want to tell religious people that they are getting it wrong… It’s nice to know you are “allowed”to change the recording in your head.. did you hear a chain break? I am 63 and I am still hearing them break… Sincerely, Recovering x-catholic who wanted to be a priest

[@exvangelicarol5336]

53:45 "what arrogance we were groomed for, and that we gladly accepted to our shame." 😖 Yes. it was such a revelation in my early 20's to encounter people outside of the cult of white conservative christianity. That self-righteousness is so cringey!😖 Another great conversation🥰❣

[@Apaulshi]

Tim, a compilation of this last question (with moth your and Jenny’s answers) and any such question from your other videos might be helpful for many! I appreciate your channel so much and needed it 🙏🏼Thank you so much! 1:39:04

[@totonow6955]

53:30 In philosophy ( Hegel ) this is called " beautiful soul". It is a stance of not recognizing and accepting the contradictions within us all and placing yourself above others as if "god" and in a place of inaction, not wanting to get your "hands" dirty, due to judging everything and everybody "not good enough". That is if I understand Hegel properly. A similar concept is called " demonic innocense" by the contemporary philosopher Zizek. 1:06 YES. Resisting Imperialism. We will not have next generations unless we live together in a connected valued world due to climate catadtrophe.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Wow. At 1:20:20 Jenny talks about relationships a privilege... I don't think a lot of folks recognize that is exactly how, in general, most people only implicitly understand this. When Melania says it explicitly, people are rather hushed about the blatancy of saying it out loud.

[@emmatessier600]

Genuinely curious and sceptical about this... Where's the privilege? Maybe because laws around marriage and work benefits are so different in my country that I'm not aware of the advantages.

[@helencahn7293]

I am amazed and perplexed at how people raised in a fundamentalist ideology could miss or avoid basic education in this country. How does Tim not know about the coveted and widely used purple Tyrian dye that was pervasive in the royalty of antiquity way before Christ. How do people not get basic biology and history?

[@trilithon108]

Just knowing Royalty used purple is not going to undo you. 🎉

[@Pinklotus8886]

Here’s the most perplexing thing about the whole messiah thing. Why would God give the Jews (his chosen people) a messiah that did not meet the criteria for the messiah that’s in the Jewish Bible. Jews would also not worship a recognized messiah of their own because there is only one God plural not many. The whole concept of God impregnating a mortal is from paganism also.

[@andiastoria9562]

Is Ms McGrath accepting new patients?

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Yes! www.indwellmovement.com/

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Forgive me if I asked this before, but if you think you'd ever want to consider sharing your story sometime, feel free to add me on FB and reach out there: facebook.com/harmonictim

[@RealOverReligion]

Christianity has a hard time explaining the evils of Yahweh. But they cannot run from it.

[@madhatterforher_888hadher7]

Shame should also belong to the sexual antagonists in all professing ekklesias as well! That's just as equivalent, cruel, and abusive as all other aforementioned issue! Ever so gradually excruciatingly unbearable! Not at all happy, and nor am I impressed!

[@desaix8008]

You’ve never had psychedelic experience have you? Psychedelic experience will show you God. I used to be atheist until a few spiritual psychedelic experiences. I can always tell when someone has never tried psychedelics when they are convinced there is no God. I’m not religious, but I definitely believe in a creator now. Eat 5 grams of psilocybin mushrooms and get back at me.

[@Venusbabe66]

That is only your interpretation of your psychedelic experience. Can you even articulate what God is and which version of God? Unless EVERY atheist has the same interpretation that you have, then calling IT god seems a mute point.

[@russe130]

This life is b******* and worthless if there is not an afterlife

[@John-sl3lu]

Can U prove that there is an afterlife

[@FoursWithin]

I hope this is sarcasm. At some point each moment has to be appreciated on its own, none should be taken for granted. But that state of mind involves a flow of calmness that Christianity doesn't offer.

[@russe130]

@@John-sl3lu can you prove there isn't, what kind of a question is that

[@russe130]

@@FoursWithin no it isn't sarcasm, and I don't know what you're talking about

[@russe130]

​@@John-sl3luand thousands upon thousands of people who have had ndes have been to the other side and saw the afterlife

[@duckbrew]

This one's a little snoozy.

[@hannahhodgins9516]

This show is sooo refreshing and helps me so much you have no idea the positive impact your show has made on my life ✨🌍🌍🪐

[@HarmonicAtheist]

Thanks, Hannah! Feel free to add me on FB and reach out there if you'd ever consider sharing your story! facebook.com/harmonictim

[@letahamilton]

Seattle person here. The whole Mars Hill thing was crazy. We have a half built Mars Church here that never got finished because they fell apart before it could be completed. The guy went to Texas, right? And started up a new cult there.

[@lilafeldman8630]

I think Arizona, but yes.