Shimano Forgot About Their Customers and Screwed Hammerhead Karoo

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[@donwinston]

I don't think the problem was not agreeing to a "deal". Karoo and SRAM are the same company now. They don't want SRAM that deeply involved with their products.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

good point

[@user-nu5fx6en9h]

Which is not good

[@luxsasha]

Idk man, Shimano makes a headunit,? I guess to Jon’s point, if Shimano does release a headunit that makes sense, but why release one? It’s like the Lezyne headunit, only used by noobs. Why hurt users?? I don’t get it

[@tony5269]

@@jonmaloneycycling7593 I no longer have Shimano I recently switched to Sram Force and love it. And now thinking about getting a Karoo 2 after watching your review on it.

[@altern8tive]

You know what really peaked my frustration - Hammerhead's disingenuous response that only "some" functionality and "select features" had been removed when in reality it was everything.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

true!

[@y_red_gold_a4280]

Exactly. That's all of it. Uh!

[@Pabon1987]

I should had check KZbin for this info, 2 days ago I purchased a Karoo 2 and last night a Di2 group set. Now, I am mad as hell, I am a new cyclist that I am taking very seriously cycling and learning from channels like yours. Appreciate the info and the work that you are putting into the channel. Might consider returning my Di2 once I get it and switch to SRAM.

[@MJarthur95]

It’s easier to send you’re Karoo back and ask for a refund. Getting a groupset is an insane waiting game

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

glad you are finding my content helpful! all the best

[@user-nu5fx6en9h]

Yes go for Sram

[@oeflinger]

@@MJarthur95 disagree... who knows if Shimano will get beef with other manufacturers in the future? In contrast SRAM uses open ANT+ protocol vs Shimano their own DFly / DI2 protocol. So you are definately more future proof with SRAM...

[@MJarthur95]

@@oeflinger I said to swap the Karoo because of the parts shortage regarding groupsets. Try swapping a groupset for another one, it takes forever to get one. You’re correct about the open & closed standard, but the only reason Shimano closed down their system with Karoo is because it was acquired by SRAM (a direct competitor in its space).

[@robmason6466]

that is some creepy sheet. thanks for the heads-up.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

No worries!

[@monochromebluess]

It’s a competition issue. SRAM vs Shimano. Hammerhead took the money deal and Shimano are not best pleased. Yes it’s crap but clearly Shimano don’t care. Shimano are so strong and dominant in that sector that folks (and DC Rainmaker) will just not walk away and stop buying their products to put on their bikes. Well presented video and great that you feel so strong but I guess you like so many others in the future will end up just using the new Garmin 1040 with its features that you have lost with the Karoo 2. Now if Shimano do have their own system to launch as you suggest - would they then do the same to a competitor in the market that is Garmin. I very doubt it given Garmin’s size though.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thank you for sharing your perspective, appreciate it

[@toddherbst4024]

I'm with you John. Shimano is only hurting their customer base. Unfortunately, I really like the Di2 features I have displayed (battery% , gear, display change with hood buttons). I like them so much that I had disabled the one feature that only Hammerhead (not Wahoo, not Garmin) has been able to get right, constant, meaningful updates with new features riders really want. With such a petty move from Shimano for what should be a public standard protocol, I doubt I'll buy anything Shimano again.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for sharing your view!

[@DscMarcel]

With electronic and connected groupsets, it was only a matter of time before manufacturers create a closed platform for their own products.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

true

[@MrIanD1]

Have an 830 love it.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

Nice!

[@_giles]

Is it time to switch to SRAM? I'm a new buyer, and was considering both group sets.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

My wife is on sram and she loves it

[@michaelglidewell1524]

This is purely Shimano's fault. They could have converted to an open standard like SRAM and others have done with their electronic shifting. With an open standard there's no need for an agreement. Garmin does this with it's radar. Users can buy the Garmin radar and use it with Wahoo or Karoo. The only company behaving badly here is Shimano.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

good point, thanks

[@LainOTN]

Not really. ANT+ shifter profile doesn't support extra buttons. Shimano had to continue using private ANT for the d-fly buttons to work. That let be honest, is the most useful feature of di2 over AXS.

[@rperfetto1980]

Hey buddy, since you're talking about testing the Garmin Edge 1040 when it's out, would you mind testing also the Bryton Rider S800? Take care big man

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

Thx bro, I will try and get my hands on one

[@quentinpollard5173]

Well said 😊

[@robertphillips3078]

I had seriously been thinking about a Hammerhead Karoo ... from my Wahoo Bolt . If its goid enough 4 Froomie 2 buy in2 ... But Shimano stuffed up . They should have purchased Hammerhead b4 Sram . Hope that Shimano sort there stuff out .

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for sharing your perspective! appreciate it man

[@mykolas.ambrazas]

I've turned off auto updates right after I heard the news. No Di2 support is a deal breaker for me so no more new updates with new features for me :/

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for sharing

[@boxbox1302]

back to using my Garmin 810.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

all the best!!

[@toddherbst4024]

Maybe some individual should figure out how to sideload new updates without striping the Di2 functionality! Just throwing this out there :)

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

good idea!

[@damu6678]

Please send Shimano a message letting them know!

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

yes!!

[@y_red_gold_a4280]

I am so upset with Shimano. The loveliest feature was the hood buttons. They might wipe off the shifting screen, but all of the features? Come on, Hammerhead, is it "some "? It's all of it.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

good point

[@davidlenneberg4303]

Unfortunately Shimano has made a lot of decisions lately that affect cyclists like getting rid of mechanical group sets in the top tier, not fixing their crank problems and generally ignoring people‘s complaints. This is no surprise.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

good point

[@rayhernandez6587]

Garmin edge 530 4 life

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

Nice!!

[@samuel8590]

Karoo is now a Direct Competitor to Shimano. Sucks for users, but at the end of the day, they do whatever the hell they want and will continue to do so. Regardless of what they do, I personally would only ever ride Shimano. I've tried the rest and don't like it. Shimano all the way.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for your comment, appreciate it

[@cleftoftherock6797]

It’s a betrayal. What does it hurt to know what gear you’re in? Would SRAM do that to users that have a Shimano product? Maybe Hammerhead was told by their new owner SRAM to take the Shimano off their Karoo 2. Again it’s a betrayal of consumers who spent $400 and now can’t get a visual of what gear they are in. My only option is to NOT update the software which is what I’m doing. If Hammerhead can’t get this straightened out, my guess is that they will lose market share which is what this ruthless crap is about. Thanks for calling it to everyone’s attention. It is pretty petty stuff. Can’t believe SRAM and Shimano are that competitive they would undercut a smaller company. I’ve been super happy with the Karoo 2 but again, it may not be Shimano who is pulling the strings. It may be the new owners. Not calling Hammerhead untruthful but they decided to take SRAMs buyout. We live in a dog eat dog world. It’s sad.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for sharing!!

[@stephenblack7251]

This was Shimano, and not SRAM - although I can appreciate why one could think that.

[@shekofriends]

Don’t think you can do anything to change this commercial decision made. Can only think twice on marrying Shimano again.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

true!!

[@henrycoronado3030]

Sram owns Hammerhead

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

Lol

[@Mikekhoh]

Maybe hammerhead didn't pay shimano?

[@simonlockwood8720]

From what i have heard (unsubstantiated, though), there was no disagreement on terms - shimano simply didn't want to support HH. It's a very small minded approach by shimano, trying to protect their share of the market, without considering that hurting consumers like this is bad for the growth of the market overall. I can see HH people delaying bike / groupset purchases, hoping that it will be resolved.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for the input!

[@mchacon01]

If Shimano was confident about their product, there would be no need to pull the licensing from Hammerhead unless they are coming out with their own product. Either way, they're a little late to the game and unlikely to make a difference. As a SRAM user, I really think this sucks for all Shimano users. A low blow to the Shimano consumer. I will let my $$$ talk when I eventually upgrade my one Shimano DA mechanical beater bike.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thank you for the input, appreciate it

[@spartanbike2260]

well sram shifting sucks + it is butt ugly. garmin user here :)

[@mchacon01]

@@spartanbike2260 Good luck with your non-wireless powertrain and poor computer updates 😉

[@alangaudet9594]

Looks like you will have to choose with your wallet in the future. Buy DI2 and support this type of nonsense, or buy SRAM or Campagnolo.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for the comment

[@saracen888]

Do better Shimano. With you on Garmin. While my 530 Edge is perfectly functional, I can’t help but think their devices feel and look incredibly dated.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thanks for sharing

[@mudonsunday]

Great Vid Jon!!!!!

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thank you

[@vitskr1]

Every company that wants to have it's device to work with di2 protocol needs to make agreement with Shimano. Now company that had agreement with Shimano is sold to another company. Original agreement stops working because it is between Shimano and non-existent company. Shimano asks to stop using protocol until new agreement is settled. Who should we blame? Hammerhead who completely ignored that they will need new agreement? Of cause no. Its all Shimano's fault

[@lajosjuhasz4363]

Where did you read that Hammerhead doesn't exists anymore? It has a new owner that doesn't change anything and happends all the time. Also as an insider you should give us more information why is a new agreement required?

[@vitskr1]

@@lajosjuhasz4363 Hammerhead is subsidiary of SRAM now. When company acquired or merged all legal agreements have to be adjusted to new/parent company. I understand that as cyclists we are not supposed to know this stuff. But thats is why layers exist.

[@chbrosz]

I’m sure there were rights of assignment in their service contract, pretty standard.

[@lajosjuhasz4363]

​@@vitskr1 We don't know the details. Not even what changed in Hammerhead nor what was in the contract they signed with Shimano. The only information that we know that Shimano did this five months after tranzition. If there was a part of the original contract that was violated they would act immediately.

[@JFomo]

You're a bigger man than me because I would have been cussing out Shimano.

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

LOL

[@GerhardDIETRICH]

The most of u people don’t understand Japanese culture and Japanese business is a part of their culture and this are the reason for the quality in their products ✌️✌️

[@jonmaloneycycling7593]

thank you for sharing!!

[@mikelockwood6631]

Sorry but thumbs down on the video. Love your videos but this one is to one side assuming Shimano is to be fully blamed. It is ok to be disappointed but without knowing the details of why, maybe should at least acknowledge this could be SRAMs fault

[@chbrosz]

Hypothetically, how?

[@mikelockwood6631]

One is there is an agreement in place. We do not know why the agreement was dissolved. Maybe as many suggest, Shimano did due to competition. But SRAM could have as well, due to not liking the terms. You see this sometimes when a company buys another, terms don’t agree with new ownerships philosophy.

[@chbrosz]

​@@mikelockwood6631 True, tho while shimano have remained silent, HH released their statement, which points the finger quite clearly: "At the request of Shimano, effective with next Thursday’s software update on June 2nd, riders who utilized Di2 integration will lose access to a small subset of features." Agree there's lots we don't know, so if Shimano is the victim here, they should release a statement. I am pretty disgruntled, personally, being an owner of a beloved Karoo 2 and having just paid mega bucks on a new bike with Shimano 12-speed DA, only to find out 2 months later that they're pulling what looks to be a very petty move. Is it the end of the world for me? No. I can buy another head unit. But it does affect me as a Shimano customer and my existing experience on my bike. And in order now to get back to that experience (of Di2 integration), this would force me to fork out money for a new head unit, which feels like a bait and switch, frankly. And that's not cool IMO. To do this on future sales going forward is one thing, but to retroactively do it to legacy customers is really annoying.

[@mikelockwood6631]

Agree. I would be frustrated as well if I owned a Karoo. And agree if Shimano did pull it out of competition is a pretty lousy thing to do. But it doesn’t make since to me for them to do it. Karoo is helping Shimano by supporting their product. That is why I think there might be more to the story. But I could be wrong.

[@kyle3570]

*every rich average cyclist. mech user here hahaha.