Shooting the Lorenz 1854 infantry rifle

[@jlpjlp1953]

Until I started watching and listening to capandball, I had not realized the Hungarians are serious about accurate shooting. We could use a little more of that attitude in the USA!

[@R005t3r]

The CMP fosters that doctrine.

[@hoodoo2001]

Cap and ball, you are the best! Thank you for this great video. Not only history but a dedication to the science of shooting these weapons. Makes me sniff a bit because I miss my Lorenz. I had a Lorenz dated 1857 or was it 1858 with the "rear rank" sights. It may not have been a civil war veteran, but it had four notches on the cheek piece. Barrel had been bored out and I had a .54 caliber rifled sleeve put in it. I never got to fire it though, I was always a bit leery of perhaps damaging the stock which had a recoil crack but I did fire blanks. I preferred the "feel" of the Lorenz over the Springfield and Enfield. I have read it tended to collect "hard fouling" but i don't know what that means in terms of design. Maybe that slightly larger diameter rear portion of the ball was the cause. Ammunition for the Lorenz in the South was made both for it and the Mississippi rifle so I suspect it may not have been optimum. If they came out with a repro, that is one I would have to have.

[@capandball]

I think that in keeping clean the bore the key is the paper patching. As far as I know the civil war Lorenz cartridges were standard grease groove bullets, not PP. That could cause the problem. Also the quality of the rifles sent to the US and CS army varied greatly. If you have the imperial eagle on the lock, it is a good sign, as it shows that it passed the arsenal inspection in Wienna. if the eagle is missing the rife came directly from a private contractor, and can be inferior quality.

[@capandball]

hoodoo2001 The hammer is very close to the nipple in half cock on all Lorenz guns. The reason is simple: it is not just a safety, but keeps the cap from falling when the soldier is marching.

[@peterparsons7141]

Thank you for taking the time to properly document this fine rifle. You have provided the details required to have a good starting knowledge of these firearms, what to look for and if so inclined to shoot it. This video is worth downloading and having for reference material. Great work!

[@100dfrost]

More & more I'm growing to love your channel. It was shooting the armour that really sold me. Please keep up the excellent work on your future videos. Thank-you, Dante.

[@charlesmaximus9161]

These are such cool muskets. Always wanted one back during my re-enacting days.

[@JReed305]

Thank you for another great video. I love to see originals being used and not collecting dust in a safe.

[@rex290]

Good video. I like the multiple scenes of you shooting the Lorenz, good video-manship! Very informative. I'm surprised to see a 1854 rifle survive this long to be called "95% okay" (the barrel). They built that rifle to last.

[@loupanella9632]

Another wonderful video and shooting piece! I love how you seem to recreate the correct ammunition for your guns. Like your hat by the way!

[@D5quared91]

I love capandball!!! :D I have read about the Lorenz musket being used by American Civil War troops in the various autobiographies I've read. Very cool, thanks for making this video!!

[@capandball]

:) Don't tell it to my wife please :)))

[@hoodoo2001]

***** LOL. Canandball. You are now officially a celebrity. You have "groupies". :-)

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Great summary of the Lorenz. Are you going to keep working at perfecting the compression bullet? The difference in calibre really makes quite a difference in the velocity from the .577. Very well presented. Cheers.

[@capandball]

Thanks! Yes, I have some ideas how to improve the load. I will also have to work a bit of the stock to hav a better barrel fit at the breech. I think that will also improve the group. The goal is the orginal groupe size: at 100 paces 10 shots in a 3" circle, with the best 5 shots in 1".

[@peterisaacs1344]

I very much appreciate your videos

[@vrisbrianm4720]

Wow, this is such a excellent video on the rifle, beautifully made and very informative.

[@pingpong5000]

As Always capandball interesting and very watchable. Thanks

[@stewknoles4790]

Another great video. I just love these old firearms. The history is amazing. Thank you for another high quality video. Now if I could get you here to help me. Ki know I would learn volumes.

[@mikecavallaro466]

Nice video. filled with great historic and technical content. I'd like to see more about weapons of the Hapsburg Empire.

[@richardkrotec1440]

+Mike Cavallaro hi its Richard Krotec again I wanted to know are you related to Dr.Cavallaro the ww1 historian from Italy that is a historian of the austro Hungarian and Italian armies of ww1?

[@mikecavallaro466]

+Richard Krotec If I am I don't know about it. One of my uncles is a retired General of the Italian Air Force. I'm going to have to do some research on Dr. Cavallaro.

[@markhubbs1964]

Sir, there is a rumor that Pederoli would be introducing a Lorenz before the end of 2016. Have you heard any news regarding this? A great video, by the way. Very informative and very well produced.

[@48thurkdisl98]

Excellent video, thanks!

[@gorankatic40000bc]

I am just reading about Prussian-Austrian war of 1866. and was interested in comparation of Prussian Dreyse and Austrian Lorenz. Reading the literature about battles of that war I could see that in many of them Austrian losses were up to 4 times bigger than Prussian, and we are talking about engagements of individual corps and the decisive battle of Koniggratz, i.e. engagements where Prussians had no overall superiority in numbers. It seems, despite Austrian experience and veterancy from wars in Italy, superior Prussian rifle steadily through attrition thinned their ranks. Am I right?

[@FiveStringCommando]

So happy you made a video with the Lorenz! My Lorenz is in poor enough condition that I am unable to fire it. I'd love to own a reproduction- I will have to send an email like you said!

[@andylelant]

Well presented and very interesting.

[@cphillips237]

Cap and Ball in my opinion this is the "finest" video you have done, I Love ALL of your videos I'm a proud owner of an original 1854 Lorenz myself (lock plate date of 860) and I was blown away by this video, I wished I had some of those compression bullets to fire in my original Lorenz I can not find them here in the states, I make a copy of the E.A. Ludlow Birmingham lubed paper cartridge loaded with a Wilkerson bullet and it is very accurate at 100 yards Thank You !!

[@georgetorrise5775]

See if a local tool and die shop can make you a mold.

[@Hercules1-v9m]

The Iron Brigade approves.

[@IKS-Exploration]

Fantastic video :)

[@stonewelch3171]

un grand bonjour de la FRANCE. merci pour tous ces bon moments passés a vous regarder

[@capandball]

Merci Stone!

[@diktatoralexander88]

I still am loyal to the Pattern 1853 Enfield. I need to get my hands on a original. The Lorenz bullet design was pretty interesting. I like how they put thought into compression.

[@kekolo56]

Very well researched!!

[@kennebecsmitty]

Those are good rifles,they were used by Union & Confederate forces in the American Civil War.But,they've always been very underrated compared to the Springfield & Enfield rifles.

[@thomasbaagaard]

+Michael Smith I believe some of the "bad rep" is because the Lorenz was not machine made like the Springfield and some of the (csa) Enfields... And when the Austrians sold weapons it would make sense that they tried to get rid of the poorest weapons they had... So the problem have more to do with the standard of the production then the design. That is my understanding anyway... may out host got something on this?

[@pessi919]

+Michael Smith They were used by many soldier in the Iron Brigade

[@lorenr3276]

The problem was they were originally made in .54 cal. Confederates wanted standard ammo so they bored them out to 58 cal. This was usually done poorly with hand tools and untrained laborers (slaves often). According to some soldiers guns could have bores from .56 to .59 cal and so they were often terrible in accuracy if u didn't use the exact right size bullet (which they didnt) most accounts say soldiers got rid of them as soon as they could find a Springfield or Enfield

[@vajake1]

Excellent! Just excellent!

[@versal339]

Great video, great info on the compression bullet. I shoot paper patch bullets in my Sharps and I would think muzzle loading a paper patched bullet could be difficult. This could be the reason that other systems used a smooth sided paper patched bullet. I have not been able to duplicate the accuracy of grease groove bullets with paper patched bullets in my Sharps, I'll keep working on it. It sure is fun.

[@capandball]

I think that's the best part: experimenting. When everyithing works, it becomes boring :)

[@slowpokebr549]

***** I've had very good luck paper patching undersized, Foster type slugs in my smoothbore 12. They are very quick to load and impressively accurate. I use eight five grains of FFg. as a hunting load. I've also done the same with my old San Marco Zouave. It's a full .580 and my Pritchet mold throws .570 like clockwork. Paper patching worked wonders. A paper patched bullet actually holds together pretty well if kept in a nice tin. I've made some that lasted three seasons in my possibles bag.

[@quispegualinchay8335]

Hoy este rifle (original) es usado en competencias internacionales ganando por lejos a rifles más modernos. Fue el mejor rifle de percusión de la infanteria linea del siglo XIX

[@moolightstarlight9223]

The bullet design is fabulous! I would rather have the long range version of this gorgeous musket.

[@pecunianonolet4465]

Hi , many compliment for your amazing video.Have u information about the M62 Podewils bullet?Have the Extrakorpgewehr and Infanteriegewehr II like your.Where is the regiment or batallion number on the Extrakorpgewehr?Thanks a lot

[@MrCameronian]

Excellent video; what is the little stud at the base of the bullet, is it zinc, what is its purpose?

[@davidcuriosoporlaverdad801]

Hola,buenos dias. Me ha gustado mucho el video y el arma es preciosa. Sigue a sí. Un saludo desde España

[@tHeWasTeDYouTh]

amazing video!!!!!

[@MrGarwest]

Superb and professional assessment of the Lorenz system. We have in our collection an unissued M/61 Versuchsmodell (prototype) with finger rest, type II rear sight and manufactured by Mathias Sedderl . Lock plate dated 862. Also have the 13.7 mm Kompressionsgeshoss, bayonet and white 1854-62 sling. We intend making a range and handling comparison with a Dreyse M/41, chambering a copy of the M/55 Patrone, also with bayonet fixed and sling. We hope to conduct the project sometime next year on KZbin (English weather permitting).Guy and Leonard A-R-West

[@balazsscful]

+Guy and Leonard A-R-West Sounds like an excellent experiment! I would love to shoot a Dreyse once! ;)

[@MrGarwest]

+Németh Balázs,It is a unique experience shooting the first military bolt action rifle with a self-contained cartridge.We have evaluated nearly all of the military issue examples with their respective cartridges and bayonets fixed:- The M/41, M/54, M/57, M/60, M/62, M/65, M/65 Beck conversion and M/69. Also the O/M Dreyse/Lorenz conversion. The only one missing from the list is the U/M Dreyse.Have a look on KZbin to see them being shot. Key in Shooting the Dreyse M/41, that should get you there.Regards,Guy and Leonard A-R-West

[@MrGarwest]

+Németh Balázs,We would like to contact you, could you provide us with your e-mail address.Guy and Leonard A-R-West

[@capandball]

+Guy and Leonard A-R-West Hi, please check in via our corporate email: [e-mail], thanks, Balázs

[@MrGarwest]

+capandball ,Have you received our e-mail and attachments?G and L A-R-West

[@tumbleweed6658]

Thank you for this great video, I shoot flintlock and I thing I notice the longer I shoot and the hotter the barrel my groups improve. Did you notice this with your rifle musket.

[@gordonhazel697]

I enjoyed your demo, I was interested as have just received an email from Pedersoli shewing there new Lorenz rifle, will be most interested to see how that rifle performs and what sort of bullet they come up with. Well done

[@reddevilparatrooper]

The rapid advance tactics of the French were forgotten by the British in WWI by going at the walk during most of their battles.The French who invented the tactic called it "Attaque a outrance"which is basically an outright infantry attack into strong German positions which is also festered with machineguns which is bad along with accurate rifle fire.The Americans did not do too bad when they finally found out what the French and the British were doing and how the Germans fought.Americans were using American Civil War,Spanish American War and improved Philippine Insurrection style skirmish line infantry tactics where platoons and squads deployed to fire and maneuver.The Germans perfected it with their "Stosstruppen"which has been the basis of modern infantry attack methods.Since WWII this has been common practice of infantry all over the world.

[@presidentlouis-napoleonbon8889]

Question here. The French had some very big caliber rifles at the time. Mostly rifled from the earlier muskets such as the 1822T Bis or the 1842T, 1850T and there caliber is 17.8mm. The Austrians in the other hand had a much more advanced weapon with a caliber of 13.9. Not only the Austrians had faster muzzle velocity, they also had a flatter trajectory. How could the French overcome this great disadvantage? Or is it great? Another question here. In most rifle-muskets, what is the discrepancy between the bullet diameter and the land diameter?

[@TheDoodoosh]

Nice vid, as always. There just one thing I don't quite get. Wouldn't it be better to size the bullet before you paper-patch it?

[@Sinaimedve007]

how could the muzzle speed be measured accurately in the mid 19th century? what kind of chronographs did they use to measure the travel time of the bullet?

[@markgrafX]

Remek video! Esetleg a hazai nézettségen lehetne dobni egy magyar felirattal! Csak így tovább!

[@leventebalogh3820]

Azt én is adnám.

[@Whitpusmc]

I’m surprised that you patch and lube before sizing, why doesn’t the paper get peeled off?

[@gasmaskkiller3853]

Congratulations from Colorado usa for your taking 1st in your competition. That is very cool.i saw,and now want the reproduction rifle and Carbine version for sale at military heritage inc.for 549.00+69.00 for shipping.the flash hole(vent),has to be drilled before firing.is that an easy task?thank you sir for all your videos.you really know your stuff on every gun you've shown.

[@troyreynolds4520]

When you paper patch the bullets do you use 100 % cotton or 25% ?

[@CaliPatriot88]

I know for certain the Lorenz rifle overall was the third most widely used rifle in the American Civil War, the Springfield and Enfield were the more numerous and popular. I know the Lorenz saw extensive use by Confederate forces in the western theatre and some use by Union forces in the east but once the new Springfields became available they were quickly rotated out. Cool musket though, looks more accurate than an Enfield.

[@capandball]

CaliPatriot88 I think the Lorenz is a more advanced arm than the Enfield or Springfield, however all of them was suitable for the infantry tactics of those times. In fact they were superior compared to what the officiers could understand...

[@CaliPatriot88]

***** All three were very effective in the field and I'm not doubting the Lorenz was the better arm, especially with the more advanced sight. As far as the standard infantry musket goes I think all three were not much different. I was simply implying the Springfield and Enfield were more popular, probably because there was more of them than the Lorenz.

[@capandball]

CaliPatriot88 Yes, I agree. Many of the Austrian guns had bad reputation during the civil war, as the quality varied a great. A great percentage of the Lorenz rifles came from private contractors, not thru the Vienna Arsenal, which was a proof a good quality. There were also tube lock, and converted tube lock 18.2 mm cal Austrian rifles imported, that were badly outdated in 1860. Maybe these factors determinated the percived quality of all Austrian arms.

[@rangerstl07]

If you use a lay a damp cloth on the table and roll the bullet and patch on that, the paper will not stick down to the smooth wood table top.

[@capandball]

Thanks! I'll ry that next time!

[@ethangreen6644]

I like the weight on the rifle for when I'm marching in a parade sadly haven't had a chance to fire one due to safety issue on some of the reproductions

[@vincenzomarksman8004]

In the future also will test the Steyr Mannllicher m95 in 8x50mm?

[@capandball]

Vincenzo Marksman Hello Vincenzo, Yes!

[@Kiverson00]

I hope this will happen. I still love the videos either way!

[@roberttolley2293]

your hunting a love of animals, here people unsuited in guns hit the land, my third year shot at this year, I'm made fun of my guns hit their mark, cold clean bore, hit ground hog in neck 300 yds ,454 cassual, pistol 2 power Leopold scope. .it's sad the wound s that happen and not a site or glance for a check to see. God bless your show!

[@druisteen]

wil be interested to know how french rifle and austrian rifle perform in Magenta and Solferino

[@AHMW5541]

So would it be safe to say that if loading from a paper cartridge, the portion of the cartridge wrapping around the bullet would act as a patch? This is the same logic behind the cartridges for the 1853 Enfield if I am not mistaken. As far as reproductions go, www.therifleshoppe.com offers parts kits for the M1854 Lorenz. Everything but the barrel.

[@cs-rj8ru]

It's a good thing we have Pedersoli making good profit producing fine reproductions for us. Pedersoli seems to make every possible make and model but one-the Martini-Henry. Unfortunately, I do not know of any maker who has offered a copy of this iconic firearm..

[@markhubbs1964]

Capnball, your videos are always excellent, and this one is no different. I have a question on the pronunciation of the musket's name. In the US we tend to pronounce it as "Lor-renz" with the accent on the "renz." In the video you pronounce it as "Lawrence" with the accent on the "Law." Are we pronouncing the name incorrectly? Thanks! BTW, I have a nice original Lorenz but I have never fired it. I'm looking forward to buying one of the new Pedersoli reproductions. I hope you will do a side-by-side comparison with the original when you get your hands on one.

[@Albukhshi]

In German, words by default have stress on the first syllable--there are exceptions, but Lorenz doesn't fall under any of them (usually loanwords, but also certain grammatical constructs). So capandball's pronunciation is correct.

[@perfectionist2032]

What grade of steel is the pedersoli Lorenz is made from?

[@abulafios]

Thank you for your show. Have you ever compared Lorenz 1854 vs. "needle" gun? What was the main advantage of Prussian tactic in the 1866 campaign?

[@capandball]

+Martin Palecek That project is in progress.

[@abulafios]

Perfect!!

[@klw22001]

I would love to see an exact diagram of your bullet.That way I could have Lee make a mold for it.

[@خالدالسوري-ظ6م]

What goes with the bullet? It looks a lot like grease

[@Whitpusmc]

I admit I watch this for the guns, but his voice and accent are a close second, should be a voice actor or narrator for TV.

[@adrian_zombturtle148]

How long is a pace though ?

[@rebelbiker9956]

do they made a carabine repro of the lorenz? as a Jäger I can't finde a repro close to a Stützen for reenacting

[@capandball]

Not really. PEdersoli is working on the 1854 M Type II Infantry rifle.

[@rebelbiker9956]

capandball ok, I need help for a Jäger rifle, at least something that is close to him, wath do you suggest? (i reenact Magenta e Solferino i'm Italian)

[@capandball]

The closest you can find is the PEdersoli Jager with caplock, but it is also quite far unfortunately. With a little defarb it can be good for an 1842/48 Jagerstützen, but will never be berfect. I know that a Czech company made a repro a few years ago, but I do not know if they are in business. By the way: do you happen to have sewing pattern for the cap holder of the k.k. infantry soldiers?

[@rebelbiker9956]

capandball well as far as I know the kind of rifle i'm loocking for is something around 1854/58 about cap holder I have no idea (i'm new in the company) so i may asck

[@stephen9869]

A few clicks up and a few clicks right :-)

[@jdzencelowcz]

***** I hope U plan on demonstrating that percussion pistol we saw here as well.

[@capandball]

I already have a video on that comparing it with the Augustin pistols. But later i'd like to make a separate as well.

[@jdzencelowcz]

link?

[@kixxo4250]

I do have one

[@pawemarczewski6544]

What's name rifle on 2:00?

[@johnh7784]

Fortresses of the Quadrilateral, whatever happened to those?

[@drmaudio]

I now see this whole video is a ruse to get Pedersoli to make you a replica! Just kidding. great information as always.

[@capandball]

:) and you are right. Some kind of customer pull can help the situation :))

[@Dianaclarenceo]

do you have a le enfield

[@richardkrotec1440]

Hi i wanted to know what you think of the indian made lorenz repro muskets i bought one 2 years ago and it works perfectly fine there are so many people on the internet who say that are dangerous that they have barrels thiner than a shotgun barrel and that the barrels burst i can say its false from i what see there was one musket that exploded at gettysburg but a test of the metal proved it was human error not the metal barrel a lot of reenactors like to put double to triple the powder charge to make a louder sound but any body with any background in guns or people with common sense know that is stupidity as far as the barrels being thiner than a shotgun thats false also as my lorenz has a thick barrel the same thickness as my navy arms musket and my dixie musket and i never had any problems with but i wanted to know your opinion of the indian made lorenz :Rich

[@capandball]

+Richard Krotec Richard, they are made to be wall hangers not firearms. I would never shoot live rounds with it.

[@mikecavallaro466]

+capandball I shoot NSSA, so obviously I would never use one for competition. But these muskets are perfectly safe for shooting blanks in a reenactment. The quality varies greatly depending on maker and vendor. I have four Italian muskets as well, two Armisport and two Pedersoli. I've had to replace lock parts on one Armisport and one Pedersoli after firing less than three hundred rounds. That's a fifty percent failure rate so far. I had been led to believe that Pedersoli produced better quality lock parts than the competition. I heard a lot of hype about their new silver line before I bought a couple of them. It should suffice to say that I am now somewhat less than impressed with the advertising.

[@GunFunZS]

I couldn't understand what he said at @4:50... "Melt a mixture of beeswax and _[tannel?]_ and dip the bullet... What is the second ingredient in his lube?

[@dullbrass]

Tallow, a sort of animal grease/fat.

[@GunFunZS]

Oh. That makes sense. I should have worked that out on my own. Thank you.

[@m.l.correa3977]

incrivel...

[@johnh7784]

1860 Henry Rifle 14,209,078 views 5.26M subscribers Shooting and showing the gorgeous 1860 Henry Rifle reproduction by Uberti. ------------------- Please visit the Hickok45.com website and check out what the great folks who support us have to offer: BUD’s GUN SHOP, FEDERAL PREMIUM, SONORAN impressive!! Jaeger und Schutzen?

[@MrGautso]

4:46 Beeswax and what? Can't quite hear it.

[@titanscerw]

tallow

[@KowboyUSA]

I wonder if these rifle were used against my Serbian ancestors.

[@capandball]

To check which theatre of war it was used in, we have to follow the history of the 54th regiment. By the time of 1878, the occupation of Bosnia and Hercegovina the army corp taking part in the action was equipped with Werndl rifles.

[@KowboyUSA]

***** Thank you for the historical information. It's certainly something I wish I knew more about.

[@feherrolland]

In that time (middle of XIXth century) Serbia and Austria had very good relationship because of the presence of the Turkish Empire. The Habsburg Monarchy wanted to deliberate the Balkan countries. Originally the legendary serbian uniform (sajkaca etc.) made for the Austrian Army also.

[@KowboyUSA]

Puszta Vacs All of us, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Serbia and others, outside nationalities we pretty much share the same blood.

[@JasideiUmotHaOlam]

D=

[@JimBering1]

Best muzzleloading military rifle of the mid 19th century? You have to be kidding! The quality was inconsistent. Accuracy with the solid bullets it was designed to use was terrible while rifles such as the Springfield and Enfield were using Mini balls that expanded to grip the rifling. Soldiers on both sides in the American Civil War would dump the Lorenz at the first opportunity and trade it for just about anything else. The Austrian arsenal rifles were of much better quality but Lorenz rifles were produced privately in great numbers where quality suffered. The best rifle of the American Civil War was either the Spencer, the Sharps or maybe the Henry. The Lorenz was obsolete by then but used because it was better than a spear. As far as muzzleloaders go, the Enfield and Springfield 1861 were far better weapons.

[@patrickfrawley8705]

Why a Russian making this video why

[@capandball]

Hungarian, my friend.