Should a Cloud and Tifa relationship be canon?

[@AlleywayJack]

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[@kjh4496]

It is already is canon. It’s never been any other way.

[@Mukation]

If all 4 get to live this time around, then the only option that doesn't end in heartbreak for 2 out of the 4 main characters is Cloud/Tifa and Aerith/Zack. I don't need them to offically solve the love triange but i cannot fathom that they'd include Zack at all in these games, who's sole purpose and desire IS to reuinte with Aerith, if he's only going to get pushed aside by her. If Cloud/Aerith is going to be the intended route, they could have kept him out of the game entirley and introduced the supposed "multiverse" with another concept (like Cloud not meeting Aerith at all or Tifa getting killed at the reactor... *insert whatever* scenario). Because either way, they show us Aerith accepting that he's gone and moves on to explore whatever feelings there are between her and Cloud. I like Aerith, i've always preffered Tifa for Cloud but it's not like i'd be upset if at the end of pt3 they were to make Aerith the canon choice for Cloud. I just don't see that this is the setup the devs put in to it. It doesn't work in any reasonable way with the inclusion of Zack, who she still very much felt immense loss and love for way past the halfpoint of the _second_ game. Some point to the fact that Marlene told him she likes Cloud. "oh, but Zack heard Marlene say she likes Cloud now and accepted it". Yeah, sure, but he also was shown to make a distinct face of sadness and pain, he just didn't decide to throw a tantrum infront of a FOUR YEAR OLD. As far as we know, he went straight down to Elmyra off screen to get answers. That scene can also easily be intended to just show how much Zack loves her, to convey that he loves her so much he's willing to launch an assault on Shinra HQ alone just to try getting help for Cloud, as Marlene said _Cloud_ can save Aerith. Even if it means he loses her to Cloud. Because as long as she lives and gets to be happy, that it all that matters to him. Doesn't that sort of romantic story inclusion suggest that he will be the one Aerith sees as her true love once they reuinte? Like again, i love Aerith, but i'm just not seeing that CA is the route (i see the intentional "romantic moments", but just not the overal endgame with them). Like, they made Cloud intentionally always break eye contact with Tifa whenever she sees him and Aerith together, while he never does the same when he is with Tifa and Aerith sees them? Doesn't that convey that he feels bad and hopes Tifa doesn't get the wrong idea? Or am i just reading that wrong? He does this after after Aerith claims they were on a date in Kalm, he even tries to get her hand of his arm, he does it in Nibelheim when she waves at them when he and Aerith are at the water tower and he does it when you go on the Aerith date and run into Tifa at the saucer. Yet he does not do that when you run into Aerith with Tifa as your date? Sure call the scene optional, but the behaviour isn't optional, it's clearly intentional by the devs? Not to mention that the personal character bond and growth happend between Tifa and Cloud. Sephiroth makes him pick a fight with her in Kalm, they resolve it in Junon and _he_ tells her that they will get time to talk and figure things out. He initiates the fact that he wants to figure things out between them. When he remeber Zack in Nibelheim, Tifa is the one who consoles him and tells him to view the positive side: He remembered him, he's making progress. And the Nibelheim reactor _he_ is the one consoling her when she sees a dead body at the same spot her dad died at, she hyperventilates and stops the moment Cloud puts his hand on her and says her name. Just that he was there, calmed her down. And not to mention the Gongaga sequence. When he thought he killed her, he reverted back to his comatose state and only woke up when Barret told him she was alive. And the scene in the bedroom, he opens up to _her_ and only _her_ about his mental issues, but plays dumb when Aerith points out that she want's to meet the "real" him, if you take Aerith on the date later. Oh and when Tifa attempts to lean in for a kiss, he stands dumbfounded at first.... but he ALSO leans in closer. That conveys that they _would_ have kissed there if Yuffie hadn't interupted. So again i don't hate Aerith, nor do i deny that the devs has thrown some shades of grey here and there and never solved the triangle "officially" these past 27 years, but by god, despite the fact that Rebirth is clearly supposed to be _her_ game, the main quest story is _surprisingly_ thin regarding the possible romance between her and Cloud. They do not get as thoughtful of an approach that sees them building their relationship up and working through their issues over the course of the game as Tifa and Cloud get. Alot of people who "ship" Aerith says "oh, Tifa and Cloud can't communicate" and like.... Yes, that's true... at the start of the game..... But by the end they are litterally closer than ever and have managed to completly tear down the walls they had built around eachother..... Like did you not play the game? Maybe i'm just a crazy over analyzer who rambles on about silly nonsense, i just feel that they were very balanced in Remake regarding the girls but not in Rebirth :P

[@therecruitassassin]

Appreciate the analysis. Awesome indeed.

[@TheBlackOtaku]

Cloud X Tifa are one my all time favorite ships in final fantasy, to me perfect for each other not because there childhood friends because of their chemistry. And in my FF7 headcanon CloTi is canon 😍

[@sagaswp]

Advent Children pretty much canonized Cloud/Tifa.

[@nickmurkel2469]

Canonized them as a cellibate couple you mean? It's one of many flaws with that movie, probably the most severe as it derails certain other plot threads. People come up with their convoluted explanations for why it still makes sense and how novels written 15 years later make it less bad, but it would still be better if they shared a bed and had their own kid or kids (although they could only be babies at this point).

[@somethindarker]

@@nickmurkel2469 Absent evidence doesn't prove anything. For all we know they could've been banging like crazed rabbits until Cloud got the geostigma. It's explained in the novelization and side stories that the reason Cloud started truly suffering from survivors guilt when he got the geostigma.

[@nickmurkel2469]

@@somethindarker Yeah, reading this sort of cope is both tiring and gets old fast. Stop accepting the BS we were given, and start demanding better.

[@mistafabro]

@@nickmurkel2469 They are giving us "better". Have you played Rebirth?

[@nickmurkel2469]

@@mistafabro was that an intentionally stupid remark or are you really that dense? It's obvious I'm referring to them correcting what they screwed up in Advent children.

[@GordonCid]

So far, the remake trilogy has made Cloud and Tifa the best written relationship in the trilogy. Cloud and Aerith’s is decent for what it is, but I don’t necessarily think they intended them to be viewed as the canon romance. If it was, their relationship would’ve been portrayed differently and not feel one sided. Cloud and Tifa’s has much more substance from Cloud’s journey starting because of his desire to be noticed by her as someone special, to having these moments where Cloud is more open towards Tifa as shown in Rebirth and just them having these little moments whether it’s in sidequests or main story content. Also Nojima writing novels that expand a little bit on their relationship like Tifa realizing she fell in love with Cloud the night of the promise in Traces of Two Pasts, and Cloud wanting to be a special existence to Tifa in 2,000 Gil. Having that as well as portraying their relationship to the point people view them as one of the best romances says a lot. Tifa and her relationship with Cloud have been getting so much love and praise after Rebirth. And that’s due to there being more substance to Tifa and Cloud’s relationship compared to Cloud and Aerith’s relationship. Also part 3 is covering the heavy moments like Lifestream sequence and more, so they’ll more than likely expand on Cloud and Tifa since the trilogy put a lot of love and crate towards their relationship.

[@Molii2006]

In my opinion, both relationships are viewed romanticlly, just as the OG. Both relationships have their moments, but the Aerith and Cloud one is intended to be as it has to be, a fleeting love, since we know what happens to her. I consider myself as a Clerith, but I like pretty much Cloti too

[@jinepiphany904]

Can I ask where Cloud has been one sided with Aerith or the game doesn't want you to like them together? From the first meeting it's clear that Cloud is interested in her, almost more so then she is cause when they first meet she is more interested in his connection with Zack. He loves hanging out with her because she doesn't want him to feel left out, it's a connection they share due to both of them having lonely childhoods. Cloud always rushes to rescue Aerith and doesn't play about her safety. Dude even dreams about her in her house where she tells him "Don't fall in love with me." and gets jealous when she mentions her past romantic relationship. In the end of Rebirth during their final "date", Cloud is clearly having a great time being with her and doesn't refuse going along with her. If he really didn't like Aerith he would refuse and act rude towards her. Cloud clearly love's Aerith company and rarely refuses to hang out with her. The thing is, Cloud doesn't jump at the opportunity to romance her because he knows about her feelings for Zack and doesn't want to get in Zack's way, this is especially evident when he beings to remember Zack. That's why he initially begins to back off especially during the Skywheel scene, but as usual he eventually relents and gives in to her as he usually does. And that's just some scenes and moments from Cloud's perspective there are many more. The developers themselves even push the connection between the two, their names are represent the sky and earth, Aerith's skywheel date being the default one because of how important it is to understanding their relationship and characters, both have songs about each other. Aerith's death being described as the reverse of "hero dies for the one he loves" trope. Cloud and Aerith having multiple drawings together by Yoshitaka Amano, and so much more evidence that supports Cloud x Aerith as being a legitimate relationship that was cut short by tragedy. This isn't to say that Tifa and Cloud don't have romantic feelings at all for each other, it's clear that Cloud likes BOTH girls and both girls like him and the developers like both pairings. In a way both pairings are "canon" and both pairings are good for each other cause each girl brings out something different in Cloud and help him grow, and Cloud does the same for each girl.

[@GordonCid]

@@jinepiphany904 if Cloud and Aerith were the true romance, they wouldn’t have put heavy focus on Cloud and Tifa’s relationship and they would’ve developed Cloud and Aerith way more. Cloud and Tifa’s relationship was the best developed relationship in the game that has spanned from the games and novels. It’s why you have more people in support of that relationship rather than Cloud and Aerith’s relationship. Also they wouldn’t have had Cloud and Tifa kiss in their GS date. Regardless of it being “optional” a majority have seen it and praised it. It’s a highlight for many in the game. There’s also no quote that confirms both Cloud and Aerith had mutual romantic feelings. It’s only been Cloud and Tifa that have confirmed romantic feelings towards each other. There’s also no default date. How you play determines who you get for your date. There’s no definitive canon date. It depends on who you favor during your playthrough. The artwork from Amano was drawn before the release of FFVII. He didn’t know what the story was and just drew the characters before the games release. I don’t think using his artwork is any proof of them being canon. The game needs to do the talking. Cloud and Tifa have much more evidence that confirms them as a pairing. Cloud and Aerith don’t. They knew each other for weeks and the feelings from Aerith aren’t genuine. She fell for Cloud because he reminded her of her first love Zack. She wants to meet who he is, but never gets to since she dies. Cloud and Aerith for many isn’t that compelling. It’s a good dynamic, but it doesn’t exactly click because they needed more. You can’t just base it around artworks and stuff. There needs to be more. Cloud and Tifa have all of that.

[@fiprosha]

@@GordonCid It's always been the complete opposite for me. Imo, Cloud and Aerith was so much more developed in Rebirth than Cloud and Tifa. And if you compare the Cloud and Aerith scenes with the Cloud and Tifa scenes (the non-optional and optional ones), I always thought they leaned so much more heavily on Aerith's side. I also found Cloud's and Aerith's to be way more romantic than anything Cloud and Tifa got (apart from the kiss). ... Always interesting to see how fundamentally different people can view this game.

[@kingoverseas9052]

There's nothing to debate when rebirth has clarified everything.

[@joshz2491]

It doesn't facilitate discussion anymore it only generates toxicity and from a writing standpoint makes Cloud look like he is stringing along both girls. I think that ambiguity does not help people understand these characters or their motivations and quite frankly Cloud is not supposed to be a player insert character so I am thrilled that his feelings are clearly defined. The ambiguity still exists in Aerith's feelings which is a good compromise

[@Mukation]

I was always of the opinion that the devs made it intentionally ambigous by never having Cloud say things in non-optional scenes that cannot be interpreted as just platonic love and i at my first plauthrough i figured the Tifa optional kiss was just to balance out the fact that Aerith got so much of the main story etc because this is arguably _her_ game in the trilogy. I even said to myself "oh, Aerith will get an optional kiss in pt3 via a dream or an alternate timeline etc" to balance out the main story Tifa heavy portions, mideel, the Lifestream and the highwind. But after playing through the game a few times now i've completly changed my mind. I realised how _heavily_ Clouds intentinonality with engaging with Tifa is, in soley the non-optional scenes (like omit all sidequests and all dialouge options and just look at the non-optional story). Regardless of what dialouge you choose in Junon, Cloud will be the one to tell Tifa that they will have time to talk and figure things out. So _he_ initiates the commitment to work on their relationship (whatever their "relationship" is). The same is true for Tifa, she gets to experince the Brigde on mt Nibel and realises Cloud tried to save her even back then. And the scene were she sees Sephiroth "take" Cloud away, is showing us how much Cloud means to her, she doesn't want to lose him. And Gongaga, Cloud is the one initiating the fact that he is aware of his mental issues, his memory loss, his personality shits etc to Tifa and only _Tifa_ . it is the most vulnerable he has ever been in his life and he only lets Tifa see him like that. And as Tifa goes in for a kiss, we can clearly see he's very surprised, but he _also_ leans in to her. They _would_ have kissed had Yuffie not interupted. Cloud and Tifas intentions there was not at all ambigous. Cloud also shows the exact same care for her as she shows for him. In the Nibelheim reactor, when she sees a dead man at the same spot he own father died and she completly panics, starts hyperventilating and only when Cloud puts his hand on her and says her name does she calm down. And when they're at the temple of the ancients, Tifa is the only one who notices that something is off about Cloud and is the only one showing concern for him. And all this is _soley_ in the main quest, not tied to any of the side quests etc. Cloud and Aeriths "situationship" simply did not get even half as much development and level of intentionality from Cloud throughout the game. And the most important conversation she and Cloud has, in the church as Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud, is tied to a LA/HA system..... And Cloud still does not engage with her conversation in either of them. While the almost kiss with Tifa in Gongaga is _not_ tied to a HA/LA system. It is in the game, you get it regardless of what you do. And then asked myself.... With what i covered about Clouds clear intentions with Tifa above..... Why is Zack, who's sole desire is to reunite with Aerith, in the Remake trilogy at all....? I never needed them to "solve" the love triangle, the game was great as is. But after giving it some thought i just can't see that the devs isn't setting up the solution to the love triangle and that solution is Cloud loves Tifa, always has, always will. While Aerith will get to reunite with her lost love Zack, whom she spent Remake and 2/3 of Rebirth missing and only on the GS date with Cloud accepts that he is dead and only then makes the last effot to try and move on.

[@joshz2491]

@@Mukation it's ironic for this supposedly being Aerith's game she doesn't get much in comparison to Tifa before the end, even her good moments are immediately marred by selfish behavior. In Kalm, She tells Cloud not to take Tifa for granted and then immediately does exactly that by acting like she had a date with Cloud in front of Tifa. There are more contradictory situations like that one over the whole game, nojima warned that there would be much less room for player interpretation before remake to part 1 launched and now I fully understand that he was quite serious about this statement

[@Mukation]

@@joshz2491 Aerith experiences alot of growth as a character throughout the game, but "Cloud and Aerith" doesn.t. They litterally do not evolve beyond the initial bond they built in Remake. Aeriths story covers three things: Her struggle to accept the "role" as being the "last Cetra", that Shinra robbed her of a "normal" life and the grief and loss she feels for Zack. Even her trial in the temple is about her experiencing her mothers death again. Cloud isn't involved in any of that (except as the man she wants to pursue after accepting that Zack is gone). While Tifas trial involves the death of her father and *drumroll*...... her date with Cloud on the water tower. I do not hate Aerith, her "date" in Kalm was obviously an excuse to get Cloud alone because she saw how upset Tifa was the night before and ask him about it. I think she is a wonderful character and she and Cloud definatly have chemistry and can banter and enjoy eachothers company, but strip down the story to the non-optional base game and the romance presented becomes completly one sided in Rebirth. It was much more vauge in Remake. They _could_ have written way more scenes with them growing closer and getting to know eachother better (like they did with him and Tifa) if they had wanted to go the "CA" route or to just keep the love triangle unresolved and vauge. But as i said, why did they chose to double down on Cloud and Tifa bonding and Cloud showing clear intention of bonding with Tifa all while also including Zack in these games? They have set the stage for Cloud and Tifa to become official and for Aerith to finally get her man come back to her. There is no other setup for pt 3 presented in Rebirth. Sure maybe the devs pulls the rug on us and show us Cloud and Aerith bond in pt3, but then what was the point of simply not doing that in Rebirth instead?

[@DS94everXev]

@@Mukation Cloud Tifa was never vague in remake. Cloud grasps and holds Tifa n Remake. Cloud NEVER grabs and embraces Aerith in Remake. When Aerith grabs Clouds arm to create jealousy between her and Tifa, Cloud makes no move to hold her arm at all. Aerith ALWAYS makes the 1st move on Cloud and Cloud NEVER reciprocated. But Cloud NEVER pushes Tifa away or doesn't reciprocate when she embraces him. When they fall out of the train. When the plate falls. Cloud holds Tifa willingly. Without Tifa even initiating. Both are quite reserved. Despite how smoking hot she is, I wouldn't be shocked if she were a virgin. As well as Cloud. Both are quite socially awkward. Aerith meanwhile is jumping all over Cloud. She's not shy in the least bit unlike Tifa. The physical appearance and costumes of Tifa and Aerith should be reversed in traditional setting. Tifa the shy one should be the one with a long dress and jacket. Aerith the flirty one should be the one showing off. The fact the game reverses it is kinda neat but EVERYBODY assumes Tifa is a slut based on how she dresses. But none of her actions nor behavior lead you to conclude she is.

[@StygianStilettosGamer]

Hello! Listened to your video, it was interesting! I had some agreements and disagreements. I do think the way they played into different tropes between CT & CA in OG made it more interesting. The reason it does for me is it made the red-herring nature of the story hit harder in Disc 2 when the truth behind it all is revealed. It showed the difference between vapid, fleeting moments fueled by ambiguity versus the actual love story being portrayed. However I did have some disagreements. You see where the story is going, everyone does. CloTi and Zerith are the canon ships. One interview that stands out to me comes from Nojima: "In FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE, there will be much less room for player imagination. This fact will probably change the feel of the story considerably. People who know the original might not know quite how to take it. Such is the fear that I have. But I also have convinction." My problem with the video is the premise; OG didn't canonize a couple or was "ambiguous", so should ReTrilogy clear things up or canonize a ship? I think the compilation has only ever solidified CT and ZA more and more, and cleared up misconceptions from OG. To me, that is what is going on. There were inconsistencies and plot holes that confused the understanding of the story, I don't think ambiguity was the goal. For instance, they don't leave it up in the air as to whether Cloud was really a SOLDIER or not. You mentioned Squall and Laguna. It is true the game doesn't flat out say Laguna is Squall's father, but there's a difference between the player figuring out their connection vs the connection being ambiguous. Laguna IS Squall's father. Whether the player figures that out or has to find out from a game guide is another matter. Cloud and Tifa ARE the canon couple. Whether the player figures that out or has to find out from a game guide is another matter. Disc 2 shows Tifa was always the love interest. This is a core point of the Lifestream Scene. The game still gives you some room to interpret what he felt for Aerith how you want; IMO they will never outright say exactly what he felt for her b/c if they haven't felt the need to in 27 years, I doubt they will now. Ultimately it's irrelevant b/c she is only in his life for two weeks, her attraction to him is due to another man, and Tifa is the love interest. They also will never clarify exactly what he felt for Jessie, Madam M, or any other woman who isn't the love interest. So the game doesn't stop ppl from interpreting Cloud's relationship with Aerith to some degree, it just is explicitly defining his relationship with Tifa, and Zack and Aerith's relationship. So to wrap up, I'm simply saying CT was always the intended ship, Remake is simply telling a revised version that emcompasses all of the same key elements as OG plus the compilation. It's not like Cloud's relationship with Tifa or Aerith has changed in any fundamental way; same history, same key scenes, etc. I think CloTi should be the canon ship because it IS the canon ship. This video, respectfully, seems more a matter of asking if the devs should be able to tell the story of FFVII or if should they water it down/purposely leave out the logical conclusion of the story to allow ppl to form their own version of the story being told. Also while you may find this LTD debate satisfying, it has single-handedly nearly destroyed the FFVII fandom in many ways. I think the devs know the fandom cannot withstand these misconceptions overriding the story any longer, which is why Rebirth as you point out is so definitive about Cloud's relationship with Tifa. Have a good one!

[@RedWanderer1]

I would be onboard of ambiguity and player choice... if Zack was not part of the Remake trilogy. Playing such a big part as the twist in Remake's ending, and everything that is happening to him in Rebirth. Don't get me wrong, I love he is a part of the trilogy, but by him being there, trying so hard to make sense of whats going while looking out for Cloud and Aerith, I don't know, it's just hard for me not to ship him with Aerith, which pushes Cloud and Tifa to be even more canon.

[@dudemcguy1227]

I'm sure the title of this video will anger no one. And those who engage in the comments will all display nothing but utmost respect for each other's opinions and perspectives.

[@nicholasrova3698]

Lol. It's the internet, such a fate is inevitable.

[@somebodysnightmare]

Cloud and Tifa's relationship especially after Rebirth seems to have parts of this fandom perpetually vexxed, flustered, and flabbergasted. Parts of the fandom, I should say, that never understood or accepted the complexity of the original story and clung to their personal preferences. The amount of energy people put into questioning this fictional relationship needs to be studied.

[@The3rownie]

Eh that could be said about both sides to be fair and it’s been that way for quite some time.

[@Tifalockheart7]

To me it kind of already is canon in an ambiguous way as AC exists and they do live with each other and have a family. I find it a bit difficult to imagine that they are not together in AC but living together bringing home girlfriends/boyfriends 😂… I personally like both cloud and aerith and cloud and Tifa too. I do believe aerith is more of a tragic ill fated relationship that just is not meant to be. With the inclusion of Zack now, it does make this even more stranger territory with feelings of Cloud taking his gf and whole life away… I think the writers personally wrote themselves in a cloud and Tifa corner and the story kind of makes more sense going in that direction. I think after all these years it would be nice to have closure on it all.

[@alyss4192]

It's also strange to me that, if Tifa is just a "side chick", she's appearing in literally everywhere Cloud appears in other games, while Aerith is not. Remake and rebirth emphasize it again how Tifa is special, literally every woman char in that game questions his relationship with Tifa " What's your relationship with Tifa?" "What happened between you two? " THIS NEVER HAPPENS TO AERITH. So that's that, rest my case.

[@DutchDread]

It already is, but yes, it also should be. One problem is that despite them being more explicit now about Cloud and Tifa (and Aerith/zack) they do still try to tell the story in such a way as to have leeway for personal interpretation. Which despite what you seem to think, is ABSOLUTELY NOT a good thing. For instance, they will straight up have a date between Aerith and Cloud where everything goes wrong, followed by a very obvious "I like you BUT....." But they always leave the door open an inch so that people can still headcanon that they were at least in love or something. But the problem is that this nonsense is preventing them from telling the story as effectively as they could tell it if they just went 100% explicitly all in. The result is confusing conversations and confused interpretations by people. The main proof of this has always been Advent Children, why do people so often mistake Cloud for being a horrible edgy person who is abandoning women and children to go wait for death in a church?....because the story isn't clear enough about Clouds motivations and his character arc, allowing people to make stuff up on their own, which inevitably leads to bad takes. Another example is the new rebirth ending, why does it not resonate emotionally? Because we have no idea what's going on. Is she dead, is she alive in a different timeline, are alternate universes real, what even is happening? Emotional impact requires that you know what is going on, that requires focus and clarity. Ambiguity is good for a magicians trick, NOT for when you're supposed to maximally immerse yourself in a character, their emotions, and the things they are experiencing. Hell, I'd even argue that it would be fine to so that Cloud had a thing for both, or that he's unsure of what he felt for Aerith, AS LONG AS THEY ARE CLEAR ABOUT THE AMBIGUITY. I think a story about Cloud trying to figure out what he's feeling for Aerith and vice versa is great, but even in that aspect they're not clear and it's poisoning what was once one of the greatest stories in gaming. Cloud and Tifa have always been canon, and always will be, the people who played FFVII and honestly thought that Aerith was the real love interest by the end were never intellectually honest to themselves. But SE could do a much better damn job simply removing all ambiguity and I hope they do so in part 3. If the game game shows the lifestream, the highwind scene, and a Zerith reunion in a way that there is still mainstream doubt afterwards then for all intents and purposes the game has failed.

[@nikitam9376]

I agree about the AC storytelling because that was my first introduction to FF7 and the relationships seemed confusing even though I immediately liked Cloud/Tifa from there. I think they could have been a bit more definitive with the story of AC when the original game had already been out for years and there were no remake plans and the movie seemed like a good addition to the story and kind of like a bookend. However, I agree with Alleyway Jack about leaving the main romantic story as is. Part of the reason why this story has lived on for so long I would say -- fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it -- is due to the never-ending discussion of all the ambiguity. In my eyes, there is definitely a canon direction they are going, especially after Rebirth. This doesn't mean that they should have a clear cut answer for the characters at this point in the story telling the audience how they feel just to stop the theorizing and discussions. I think in part 3 there might even be a discussion between Cloud and Tifa about his relationship with Aerith. Seeing how they did not shy away from a more realistic and in depth discussion of other events in the story like Tifa confronting him about not being in Nibelheim and Barret and Yuffie directly talking to him about his relationships, and many others, I won't be surprised if they go there. But even if they don't or even if they do, I think everyone will benefit from accepting the fact that Cloud and Aerith's relationship has always been intended to be romantic (whether for subversive reasons or for love triangle reasons). This is not about which one he loves more, it's about the fact that theirs is a budding romance that is snipped before it can develop any further. Accepting this does not diminish his love for Tifa and the depth of their relationship. In my eyes, it actually enhances it. A majority of the shipping fandom does not want to recognize that this is not a Tifa vs Aerith situation, it is a Tifa AND Aerith story. They develop a friendship in these games because it is about both of them, not one over the other. They recognize each other's feelings and story and accept it. Aerith knows Tifa has feelings for Cloud and teases them on purpose, which she knows will bring them closer together, even though she does feel something for him herself. But she also occasionally gives in to these feelings by setting up dates with him or being playful and flirty with him because she's still human. This doesn't make her a bitch, it makes her human. Especially in the current retelling of the story where she is aware of her fate and just wants to enjoy what time she has left by being a little bit selfish. I found that so endearing about her in the Remakes and very relatable. It's what makes her a great character. She's just a young girl dreaming of a normal life that she won't get. And Tifa loves Aerith and Cloud enough to be ok with the fact that Cloud might have feelings for her. She is not threatened by her although she does have her moments of jealousy because she's human too. In the end, you know if you understand her character, that she would give her blessing to both of them despite her feelings for Cloud in the event that she survived and Cloud wanted to be with her. This is who she is. It's the core of Tifa. She is selfless. I think with what they've done so far, they've conveyed the relationships between these characters very well. They are what we see. Cloud and Aerith have a connection that is deeper than friendship, similar to a crush but that of a fairytale romance while Cloud and Tifa have more of a lifelong caring and understanding love that's also passionate. Aerith's death deepens the relationship between Cloud and Tifa because they go through hell and back together and Aerith is a big part of their journey of life, love and loss. They learned a lot from her, they loved her and they both lost her. Whether Cloud's feelings were romantic or not is not important but given the circumstances of the way their relationship is portrayed, two young attractive people are more likely to fall for each other than not. The love triangle is a compelling aspect of the game's narrative that adds a level of reality, depth to the characters and provides emotional complexity to the storyline. All of which make it so great.

[@gennieshistory]

It’s not because of open interpretation of mc’s sex life the game is living that long. There’s nothing to interpret. Canon clear as day. Game is living because of interesting plot and likable characters.

[@nickmurkel2469]

AC censored Cloud and Tifa's relationship and made them a celibate couple. We need to stop using it as a source, and start pushing for it to be remade in a way that fixes things. No more separate beds or adopted kids. Screw Advent Children, at least as it exists now. This is far from the only problem with the movie of course, but it's clearly it's most severe problem.

[@nikitam9376]

@gennieshistory I wasn't talking about their sex life. I was talking about the level of Cloud's feelings toward each girl. People love to compare, it's in our nature. Especially when it comes to romatic love, we always focus on "Did our partner love their ex more?" or "Who's more compatible?". Not saying those are healthy thoughts to fixate on per se but they're normal things to wonder about. Love triangles are inherently great at creating tension and investment.

[@nickmurkel2469]

@@nikitam9376 I mean the clearest interpretation can be had from the gold saucer dates. In both the high and low affection sky wheel dates for Aerith, she tries to get him to kiss her and he refuses, and invalidates the date after they get off. It's rather noticeable that Tifa does not have these problems with him.

[@pawcanada]

8:16 I was always a bigger fan of Tifa back in the day, so a younger me would have been happier at the idea of it being "the canon pairing". However, I agree with what you're saying here, with Persona 5/P5 Royal as a perfect example. In typical Atlus fashion, Royal added in a new girl and shone a very bright spotlight on her. By the end of the game I hadn't really clicked with her; by no means a terrible character but she wasn't a trope I liked and I felt she didn't live up to the hype for me. However, I had also gotten quite sick of her overexposure, preferring the cast from the "base version" more. Still, the game has a strong "she is the canon love interest" feel to it which just turned me away even more. If you want to give a game the idea of a player choosing their love interest in a play through, or keep a degree of ambiguity, you can't then turn around and show such a strong preference for one character. Contrast with the Persona 3 remake which I'm currently playing through, and I like the fact there is nothing like that. In turn, it makes the main characters and the side ones feel more balanced without feeling the need to push an idea in a player's face, disregarding how they may feel.

[@theonlymattthatmatters]

I kind of feel like it always was. The player is urged to lean Aerith in the beginning but is eventually made to realize that Tifa is always by Cloud’s side. Basically as he realizes his identity Tifa becomes the only option. Cloud loves Tifa. We love Aerith.

[@Estringman]

Really appreciate your takes here. Keep em coming!

[@anthroposmetron4475]

This whole issue is tied fundamentally into Aerith's role in the original story. Her ultimate fate in the original game is to die - and everything else about her is built around that role. Aerith is a mary sue*, and its excusable and works for her in the context of the story because of what happens to her, ultimately. Her death is meant to be set against her being such a positive force, and also her potentially being, you expect as the player, so instrumental in saving the planet. Same goes for the possibility of her and Cloud getting together. Her and Cloud in the original game is meant to be unfulfilled potential. Aerith is meant to be fundamentally a tragic character. The original game fully leads you to believe Aerith will be the traditional co-protagonist to Cloud, his Rinoa, and then she dies. And that is brilliant storytelling and why that scene in the city of the ancients has gone down in gaming history. So I feel that people who desperately want Aertith and Cloud to be a thing can be fully excused on account of what FF7 leads you to want and expect, but they're also kind of missing the point of the story. Aerith and Cloud would absolutely be a thing in a fairy tale, which FF7 is fundamentally and emphatically not. Cloud/Tifa is fundamentally an expression of what FF7 is, rather than what it is not. I should say also that Tifa's journey mirrors Cloud's journey. At the start of FF7 Tifa is continually struggling to find her voice, to express herself. Half the time whenever she tries to say something, particularly to Cloud, she's either cut off by another character, or she falters. Tifa is similar to what Cloud actually is as a character in being insecure and traumatised, rather than his false, Zack-like bravado persona - which is more similar to Aerith's nature. After Aerith dies, you get that joint fulfillment and honesty on the part of Cloud and Tifa. *Well, apart from that scene with her and Barret at the start of the Gold Saucer. Which I love, incidentally, as Barret acts entirely how I would react in those circumstances.

[@JaidynReiman]

"everything else about her is built around that role" If you want to get technical, this isn't as true as people want to believe. Aerith being killed off was ultimately not planned and they originally thought about killing off other characters instead of her. Even Zack was a very late last minute addition. (Well, they knew Cloud wasn't actually from SOLDIER, but they weren't sure how to actually pull it off until they inserted Zack into his position.) In the end, they killed off Aerith because they felt it would be the most shocking, not necessarily because they "planned everything around it". At one point even Barrett was in consideration of being killed (IIRC). That being said I do think Cloud was always intended to wind up with Tifa by the end. Even if that wasn't originally the plan and maybe the idea was having a choice, in the end its clear Cloud/Tifa was the intended canon pairing. Tifa is the one who breaks Cloud out of his mindraping by Sephiroth after all and they're together by Advent Children.

[@kellevichy]

'Aerith is a Mary Sue' tell me you never played the OG game without saying you never played it.

[@anthroposmetron4475]

@@kellevichy I played the PS1 games back when they were released. When did you even become aware of them? When the remake was released? Jog on with your asinine comments.

[@nickmurkel2469]

I definitely respect your right to your own opinion. But I have to sincerely disagree, the more ambiguous angle is simply them not committing, it's them playing things safe.. Even as a Cloti myself I would much rather they made Clerith Canon than not commit at all. The mirror idea that they're simply not committing is just not a thing I can respect. Of course it's probably easy for me to say this when the story seems to be going more my way, but still. With all that said though, I certainly hope that if they're going to keep AC cannon that they also fix how they handled these two in that movie, as well as its numerous other problems. The relationship was censored at best and non-existent at worst, and they need to make them a real family that has their own kids and shares a bed, assuming they're going to keep the whole family abandonment plot as central to the narrative.

[@evanglicanism]

Just came here to say that Im avoiding spoilers so i havent watched as many of your vids lately - but i still love them! and I'm eagerly looking forward to bingeing your commentaries after the new game is out on PC

[@mugen1813]

In a simple answer, they have always been canon. Advent Children is a thing. And he always liked her. That simple.

[@alyss4192]

As much as I think Cloti is canon. I do notice the fact that there's also something between cloud and aerith. However, there have been numorous proofs that Cloud has always been seeing Tifa as romantic interest. People say Cloud only loves Tifa because Aerith dies. No. It's always been the other way round; Cloud can't freely express his love to Tifa because of guilt and grief from Aerith's dead. That's why, I'd reaaallyy love to see Aerith's saved in part 3, and see how Cloud can finally be together with Tifa without heavy pain in his heart.

[@katerinakucerova2937]

My guess not going to happen, because they are tying back to Advent children.

[@Bahaumt86]

If we look at the original FF7 alone, then the love triangle is up to interpretation. The romantic dialogue between Cloud and Tifa at the end of disk 2 was optional. If it wasn't optional I would say Cloti already won right there because it hinted something veeeery risque happened that night. The more the complication added, the more I think Cloti is canon. They live together in AC, Cloud was very shy around Tia when seeing her again in Crisis Core. He blushed around Tifa in "A way to a smile". And in Remake he remembered his promise to Tifa on his own and decided to help Avalanche.

[@supremeoverlorde2109]

This is a very brave topic, lol. I wasn't an FF fan when the original came out, but since joining the fandom, I've found the Aerith vs Tifa debate to be one I largely stay out of. Mainly because I find a lot of fans aren't interested in good faith discussion and just want to put down whoever doesn't agree with them. I'd say I tend to lean slightly more in the Cloud/Tifa and Aerith/Zack direction myself, more so now than ever given how these characters and relationships have been fleshed out. But at the same time, I have never taken much interest in trying to analyze or debate who Cloud "really loves." It's possible to love more than one person at a time, and I've always thought Cloud loved both Aerith and Tifa. Whether he loved one of them more, at least in the context of the original game, doesn't really matter, not only because of the ambiguity, but also because there is never a point where he has to commit to one over the other. Aerith dies, and Tifa lives. That's the fact of the matter. And even if he ends up with Tifa, that doesn't necessarily make his feelings for Aerith any less important. Just as his love and grief for Aerith don't make his feelings for Tifa less important. That's my take and I prefer it to trying to establish the one true "canon" love story.

[@Mukation]

Yup, especially as a 21 year old guy who hasn't made the "choice" yet. I think i was romantically interested in like 4 girls at the same time at 20. But i was single and they were single (just as Cloud, Tifa and Aerith are) and eventually timing was right with one of them. And that's the one i _really_ fell in love with once we got together. We didn't last a lifetime, but i did love her during the time we had together. Either way, remake and rebirth made a point of showing that Cloud can reject women he has no interest in: In Remake he rejects Jessie and can only optionally agree to _maybe_ show up for pizza next evening and in Rebirth he does not entertain Yuffies shennanigans about pretending that Cloud is up over heels infatuated in her (in Costa del sol he'll over sarcasticly say he is and during their "date" he will play along with everything she does and banter with her _except_ on the notion that they are on a date, that is something he denies time and time again. That he doesn't do that with Tifa and Aerith conveys that those two are special to him. They are the only ones who are allowed to touch him and get close to him and to "drag" him around without him objecting.

[@joshz2491]

@@Mukation his body language conveys that he would rather not be getting dragged around by Aerith and during one side quest in Costa del Sol he says that he wishes she wouldn't call it a date. I believe that they are friends but he clearly does not like her romantic advances either. Hell at the end of the gold saucer date she says thank you and his response is “But I didn't do anything” which is guy speak for don't get the wrong idea. And it's true

[@Mukation]

@@joshz2491 I agree, i just made a point in showing that she is the only woman that isn't Tifa, who is allowed to do stuff with him without him reacting to it. Like, he was friends with Jessie and is friends with Yuffie aswell and they don't get the same benefits as Tifa and Aerith does. Maybe he would have been more into her if Tifa was unavailable.

[@fantasy-roamer]

How on earth have so many people missed the story this entire time? This fanbase baffles me. From the get-go it's been Cloud and Tifa, clear as day. And now that Rebirth's being EVEN clearER as day, we get videos like this saying it is "making what was ambiguous not ambiguous now?" As if SE is just pandering to the particular group of fans who understood the story in the first place? Replay the OG with open eyes, people, and you will see. Clerith is a red herring. Cloti IS the story.

[@jasminelily94]

well then they make really bad job at explaining it, aerith had better chemistry, better compability, and make him alot happier, also 2 themsong are basicly cloud to aerith (hollow) and aerith to cloud (nptk), while most tifa scene is both of t hem mostly getting depressed and have no compability

[@fantasy-roamer]

@@jasminelily94 If everyone plays the game with open eyes and receive the story as its presented, with respect toward Cloud as a fully-fleshed character with his own motivations, goals, desires and arc, then no one would be having this silly argument in the first place. Instead, a chunk of the fanbase is people intellectually lying to themselves because they can't let go of their 27-year fantasy.

[@jasminelily94]

@@fantasy-roamer there alot outside sources that written by nojima, like novels and movie and other games OTWS and AC show how UNCOMPATIBLE are tifa and cloud, there also other 6 OFFICIAL SE games when cloud sees looking for aerith, 3 of them pair them as couple, but no mention for tifa AT ALL in dirge of cerberus both of them listed as friends, and live seperately, cloud with his delivery bussines, and tifa with her orphanage imgur.com/Ls4D0S9 remake credit scene, only showing aerith resolution scene, both barret and tifa scene are not showed rebirth credit scene, not showing any date scene, but it show aerith as ROSA: there also devs interview admitting feeling embarassed watching tifa kiss scene, and they kinda regret putting it, and how devs said it was OUT OF SYNC of main story LOL

[@Jammineyeonline]

You have to be pretty clueless to not see that the right answer is cloud and tifa and aerith and zack!

[@ivanbluecool]

Fan speculation? They've confirmed it so much it's in the kh stories too. Tifa is quite literally cloud's light. The real problem was anyone after the base of game that basically had to reverse any growth or character development cloud had as a person especially advent. That's the real problem

[@xx03_p19]

Already canon!

[@katerinakucerova2937]

On top of that throughout the game in the main story, non optional, you are constantly reminded, that Cloud has hots for Tifa. Be it in remake, when he compliment her beauty over the drink or gives a little moan, when he gets wrong impression over Tifa inviting him into her room to chat as they are changing filters. Or In rebirth getting all flustered, when getting an eyefull of her bikiny clad bust. Plus other party members are acknowledging this as well. Like Yuffie constantly teasing him about it 😂😂😂 Its even part of her date scene in GC 🤣🤣 Nothing like this happens with Aerith. If you want to built serious romance you have to have sexual tension. Not possible without it. And also Zack ❤ Zack is a huge bonding article between Cloud and Aerith. Not just because of Aerith feeling drawn to Cloud because of him reminding her of Zack. But because of their mutual feelings for him. He left huge impact on both of their lives. They both loved him, they both lost him. And they both suffer mentally, because they both refuse to face that fact and grieve for him. Cloud get huge PTSD and identity crisis and forgets him not to fall apart completely and Aerith denies hisdeath even though in Crisis core you see her feeling him die and still searching for Zack afterwards. Like in Gongaga with his parents. This also bonds them subconcious level. They both lost someone, who meant so much to them.

[@makikuma91]

Uuuugggghhhh no. BarretXCloud forever bro. But I forgive you.

[@unthusiasm4541]

Tifa is his girlfriend Aerith is his best friend Rebirth very much clarifies that. His dialogue with the both of them really nails that point

[@jasminelily94]

yes, best friend who had better chemistry, better compability, and make him alot happier, also 2 themsong are basicly cloud to aerith (hollow) and aerith to cloud (nptk)

[@unthusiasm4541]

@@jasminelily94 Aerith is the sort of person that Cloud needed to come out of his shell and be himself, but it's not romantic. "Tifa can play piano really well!" And throwing her under the bus for a situation like that is exactly how a couple would react. Also they held hands and kissed. Aerith isn't about romantic love. It's all there. Leave personal feelings at the door and just look at what's presented and how.

[@jasminelily94]

@@unthusiasm4541 sry then, agree to disagree, i always see cloud and tifa is just trauma bonding, and close friends, even their guide book in dirge of cerberus stated as friends every time i watch cloud and tifa cutscene its just them depressed and past trauma and i dont see any romantic emotion while with aerith its all about romantic interaction, and there alot of hints both theme song is about them, hollow cloud song only played when meeting aerith in chapter 8 in the remake, nptk only played with cloud in date, cloud mom stating which kind of girl is best for cloud, heck even before the GS date with tifa if u got them, cloud seen smiling to aerith before claim stairs, and dream about her in his sleeps and ALOT of hidden hints all over the game also in interview devs say that they abit regret putting the kiss scene, and only put it there on optional dates, because alot of tifa fans requested the kiss since 1997

[@unthusiasm4541]

@@jasminelily94 it's amazing what lengths some people can go to justify their opinions.

[@jasminelily94]

@@unthusiasm4541 likewise my friend, atleast i give proof

[@garrettstickel1189]

its always been cannon.

[@DS94everXev]

The original game left no doubt who the woman it is who Cloud loves. Tifa. If not for this love, the ENTIRE GAME NEVER HAPPENS. THE ONLY REASON CLOUD LEAVES IS TO BECOME A SOLDIER IS TO PROTECT TIFA. Boom. That's it. Then to add to that, The ONLY REASON Cloud sticks around after blowing up the 1st reactor s BECAUSE OF TIFA. There is no reason in the slightest bit for Cloud to remain with Avalanche. Barrett hates him and insults him. Cloud can't care less about saving the Planet. Then Avalanche didn't have the money they promised Cloud for the job. Talk about unprofessional! So WTF would Cloud want to remain around a scamming bunch of terrorists who insult him for? He wouldn't. Till he sees Tifa. THEN he stays. You can take Aerith out of the game quite easily. You can just have the planet decide to fight meteor. The game hinges on Cloud loving Tifa. The game doesn't hinge a thing on Cloud loving Aerith.

[@katerinakucerova2937]

Well, two love stories, technically for FFVII to work the way it does. One is Cloud and Tifa as you mentioned above and the other is Zack and Aerith. If Zack wouldnt want to return back to Aerith, he would run away with Cloud instead of going back and getting killed by Shinra at the edge of Midgard. There for leaving poor Cloud in his fucked up PTSD state ready for ff7. Story 😂😂

[@DS94everXev]

@@katerinakucerova2937 Zack is nothing but a side character in ff7. They only expanded him to get money and made a game about him to again get money. Play the og. You never play as Zack. Zack is in the story for 2 minutes. The story is convoluted and confusing. There is a better love story between Marlene and Barrett.

[@SY-mn6qb]

I think R trilogy really gave Tifa a huge boost. Without Mako juicing she can’t fight on par with all the characters and heel kick kill a dragon. And she got the kiss. So I’d say the devs have chosen.

[@rsoxboy]

Does it need to be canon? No. Do Cloud and Tifa having physically intimate moments need to be canon? Obviously yes! But in all honesty I always imagined Tifa and Cloud not really having any interest in anyone except each other after Advent Children. Then when Cloud finally overcomes his past grief, he gets his act together and becomes a man Tifa can rely on. And then the relationship happens.

[@ourfamilyaccount]

Well said. I too think that if Tifa and Cloud are a couple that just going by the original game and Advent Children, their relationship didn't truly bloom or began until the ending of Advent Children. In the original game it was just exploring that idea but not quite to that threshold that's my interpretation anyway.

[@voborny]

Before playing every single FF7 game: my answer was no After playing every single FF7 game: my answer is yes

[@slayer1156]

Its been almost 30 years and no relationship has been made canon. If so, please tell me where to look it up.

[@FNAroundProductions]

I think the should question should be up to the developers not us. If it's been canon for 27 plus years with the relationship questions clearing up the further we go with the quality and execution in the writing going up as well then objectively it should be. Their bread and butter just got better.

[@KJellyBeanut]

Hell yeah, it should be made canon! But, in all seriousness, I do understand what you mean when talking about fan expectation vs reality. Could they truly deliver if they made it explicit (both Cloti and Zerith)? I dont know. But, I think this is them ending this story, finally, once and for all (for our main cast at least) and maybe they want to end the ambiguity? Either way, I have faith they can end it in a way that is satisfying so I'll leave it in their capable hands.

[@Mukation]

if they are solving the love triangle, then "Cloti" and "Zerith" is the only pairing that doesn't result in 2 out the 4 main characters getting heartbroken. If Aerith rejects Zack, but Cloud rejects her then she and Zack are devestated. If Cloud rejects Tifa, then she and Zack are devestated. If Aerith rejects Cloud for Zack, then Cloud and Tifa are devestated. Only Cloud/Tifa and Aerith/Zack will result in "everybody" is happy. And since they included Zack in the story and they are solving it..... Isn't the solution obvious?

[@KJellyBeanut]

@@Mukation I wholeheartedly agree.

[@danielmclean3733]

Cloud Tifa is definitely canon, no matter how terribly they mess things up. Just like Vincent and that 9 year old.

[@OGBabygurl]

There shouldn't and wouldn't be any canon relationship with Cloud. Devs have been very careful to make sure everything is debateable from every angle despite your ship. No matter how much evidence you think you have, there is not enough to say one works alone. If the original relationship was to be made from original concept work, it was meant to be Cloud and Aerith. Tifa was added last minute and Zack very last minute. It's almost an unattatched love square. Tifa and Zack could either represent the love interest of the others or their pasts they're trying to move on from, but cannot. Cloud and Aerith can either be star crossed lovers who are forced to be departed from each other and with another or they are the catalysts that help each other see the importance the others hold in their romantic lives. It's complicated and well done.

[@ourfamilyaccount]

Think Rebirth might be painting this picture of what if Aerith survived... In a relationship centric view how does Cloud feel, now that both are alive and available... who will he fall for? Square Enix has done a phenomenal job presenting both women, Tifa and Aerith as good partners for Cloud. I truly don't know what they have store. For Tifa If the player has high affection points with Tifa that they kiss during their date at the Gold Saucer.. and Cloud shared more information with Tifa at the Gongana inn, so there's real trust there. For Aerith During the play if Aerith's with you, during her song Cloud will grasp onto her yellow flower pedal and place it directly to his heart. Told the end of the game, when Aerith is dissolving away their hands are held with fingers interlocked, this is also seen when they have the Gold Saucer date if the player gets high affection points. It's a body sign that means high attraction. I'm excited for part 3.

[@DonutSwordsman]

I think teasing it works but not giving a clearly implied awnser is cheap writing. But og ff7 DOES give you an implied answer. Its tifa. The before crator scene, the childhood love, lit everything is obvious and you even explained that aerith liked him because he was like Zack and had a buster sword. She even respects that tifa likes him multiple times AND in remake

[@JaidynReiman]

Yeah I don't understand this question. Cloti was always canon, the original game and Advent Children made this clear. Aerith liked Cloud to begin with because she was mourning for Zack and Cloud reminded her of Zack, because she didn't realize Cloud was literally unconsciously trying to emulate Zack. I played Crisis Core recently and Tifa is literally constantly pining for Cloud once you meet her. She's constantly throwing out subtle hints "hey are there any blonde guys in soldier?!" And a huge part of Cloud's motivation for wanting to join SOLDIER to begin with was to impress Tifa.

[@Mukation]

Aerith obviously falls for Cloud her self, but unironically, she also appears to be Cloud and Tifas biggest shipper. In Rebirth her "date" in Kalm was litterally just an excuse to slap Cloud in the back of the head for hurting Tifa and reminded him to not take her for granted, without even knowing what their fight had been about or who was at fault. (it was Sephiroth, who influenced him to pick a fight with her) And that leads to him appologising in Junon and litterally taking the initiative on them working on their relationship. He tells Tifa that they will have time to talk and figure things out. He is the one who does that. And the bonding that happend in Rebirth was between Cloud and Tifa. Sorry, i see the romantic tropes with Aerith, but i just didn't see the bond build over the game like it did with Tifa? (not counting side quests, only "main" quests)

[@MrTwentington]

I have a few views first of all SPOILER WARNING… - - From the trailers of rebirth I really thought we might have had a switcheroo of leading lady deaths, where Tifa would be killed instead and push an Aerith romance but now dealing with a fallout of her kind of knowing she was meant to die and dealing with the guilt and regret and how different Cloud’s mourning would’ve been. But that was my “what if?” Machine fanfiction brain going. I prefer what we really got. I actually wouldn’t be mad if they made Cloti canon and crystal clear by the conclusion of this last part of the game. Because you still have two isolated games with remake and rebirth where you can speculate it and play it how you want date who you want. But in shipping wars I am not the guy to talk to I would happily enter a polycule with Cloud, Zack, Tifa and Aerith I think they’re all wonderful characters I love what they all represent.. it’s just love all around for me.

[@AlleywayJack]

I had a strong feeling they would do something like a switcharoo too, or even have an inadvertent player decision alter the 'who lives' scenario between one of those key characters, but the more I think about it, that'd be quite a callous decision and hard to reconcile as a conclusive ending.

[@SiliconSlyWolf]

Sometimes I wish we'd get more answers explicitly shown to us, rather than leave room for the speculation, due to some of the obnoxious theories out there. And that includes Game Theory after hearing MatPat basically admiting to just making stuff up to some extent for views rather than always trying to make a legit theory.

[@alyss4192]

People forget that Cloud isn't the only one holding grief and guilt towards what happened to Aerith and other victims on the planet. Cloud, being the main char whose this kinda hero complex, ofcourse it'll hit him so hard, Aerith was killed in front of his eyes and thought he could just do anything to save her that time, Different when it's Zack, Zack didn't die in front of his face, he found out about his dead later.

[@katerinakucerova2937]

Zack didnt die in front of Cloud and Cloud only finds out later, that he died? Didnt play Crisis, I see 😂

[@richanater99]

what's canon is they bang under the highwind.

[@AlleywayJack]

lest we forget 🍆

[@JudasLegion666]

Wait respectfully, what did you think the highwind & LS scene conveyed ? Ambiguity about who Cloud loves ? The Ultimanias literally confirm that they share their mutual feelings under the Highwind ? I am lost as to how you arrived at things being left ambiguous ? The onyl reason this has beem ambiguous because people didnt understand or willfully not accept the revelation of LS & the under the Highwind scene.

[@JudasLegion666]

Let me be clear, LS is first & foremost about healing Clouds identity crisis. But what I was referring to is that during these sequences we are explicitly shown what feelings Cloud holds for Tifa. Which they later confirm in the under the Highwind scene. For those hanging onto the thread of coping by saying it was optional ? It really wasn't because it's always Tifa & the Ultimanias explicitly state the High affinity version to be canon. If anyone requires receipts of the Ultimanias, I am more than happy to provide. This is all within the story of FF7 OG. So it's not odd or surprising that the Devs who said they are pushing the remake project to be less player ambiguous than Cloud & Tifa's romantic relationship be expressed clearly. Hence Cloud confirms mutual feelings for Tifa & only kissing her. vs no confirmation of any such romantically inclined feelings nor any explicit gestures to make it romantic with Aerith. & If anyone comes at me trying to debate that Cloud offering Aerith comfort after she clearly needed it saying, just till the rides over is more romantic or as romantic as a kiss purely initiated by Cloud ? I dunno. Part 3 is going to be rough for Anyone that deep in denial.

[@kawaraianimeslayer4710]

That thumbnail got me😂

[@darwinwins]

ClouTi?! not T-Loud?!

[@XT91]

There's a multiverse now anything and everything is possible with that bad writing.

[@bdhuffman42]

This is true, however I actually love the obviously not cannon relationship of Aerti

[@RyanOstrowski-eh6ft]

i have a bad feeling that tifa is not going to save cloud in part 3?

[@RyanOstrowski-eh6ft]

@ALittleStickler because people are saying on the internet that tifa is not going to save cloud in part 3 it's zack and aerith and that does not make any sense at all?

[@RyanOstrowski-eh6ft]

@ALittleStickler but why is tifa seeing visions of cloud holding aerith with blood on her arm and on his hand and switch to no blood i don't get it?

[@ourfamilyaccount]

The only aspect I can see being a slight change is in one of the official FF7 novels (I forgot which one), (dead) Aerith traveling through the lifestream guides Tifa to Cloud's head-space plain of reality... so maybe Aerith will appear briefly but I agree that that scene ought to be a Cloud and Tifa focused y@ALittleStickler

[@ourfamilyaccount]

@ALittleStickler Thanks for your insight. I truly wasn't aware that the novel wasn't canon, thanks for clearing that up.

[@Beastlango]

Yes, the care she gives him towards the end makes you feel like a dick for not choosing her throughout the game. I personal like Aerith more, but Tifa is best for Cloud without question

[@kellevichy]

But who is Cloud 'best' for? People will argue 'x is better for Cloud' but as AC demonstrates he's not in the mental position to be good for anyone in that kind of way and Tifa does suffer because Cloud is not available to her in ways she needs. Does that mean they can't make it? Of course not. But Cloud has A LOT of work to do before HE is the one that's good for Tifa ( or anyone else ). Tifa is pushed into the role of a parental figure over him ( do not make that weird internet ) in the novels and what she needs and wants is a partner. Cloud cannot give Tifa his best while she pours everything into him - like in reality, it's not fair, nor is it his fault he has his short-comings. That's what I personally adore about them - how painfully human they are.

[@Mukation]

I'm in the exact same position, i love Aerith as a character but i just don't see the growth as a couple happening over these two games. Remake was more ambigous, but Rebirth just has Tifa show immense care for Cloud AND Cloud takes initiative in engaging in their relationship. He is the one who tells her that _they_ will have time to talk and figure things out, not her. Cloud is the one who decides to finally open up to her and only her about his mental issues and when he does, she doesn't pry, she just shows him nothing but love and care, insuring him that he is safe with her. And he does the same thing to her in the nibelheim reactor when she sees a dead body at the same spot her dad died, she gets a panic attack and immediatly snaps out of it the moment Cloud puts his hand on her and just says her name. I just didn't see the same development with him and Aerith in Rebirth, despite this undoubtingly being _her_ game, no?

[@supremeoverlorde2109]

@@kellevichy One thing I actually like about Cloud and Tifa's relationship in Remake/Rebirth is that it feels like the developers are course correcting to at least make it somewhat more balanced. In the original, it was kind of frustrating at times seeing how devoted she was when he was just completely emotionally unavailable. And it was the same way throughout most of Advent Children. In Remake and Rebirth though, we actually see Cloud trying to be considerate of Tifa's feelings and look out for her more, especially when it comes to her trauma and things that scare her or make her uncomfortable. He may not always be great at saying the right things, but he makes the effort, and that counts for a lot.

[@BlackMetal-uv6qm]

I know a lot of people see Tifa as the canon choice. But how can you ignore the impact this flower girl has on him in such a short amount of time? To me she is doing an outstanding job at pulling the best out of him and getting under his skin. I've never seen Cloud crying for anyone other than for her. Everything about Cloud and Aerith feels so magical to me, so that I am having a really hard time imagining him having a future with Tifa. And saying that, I will have to accept it if SE decides to make Cloud and Tifa canon. It is just not what I feel and see, they are both too introverteted and awkward for eachother imo. And this doesn't mean I don't love each of them but in my imagination they are too similar and too trauma bonded for eachother. They'd need people like Aerith and Zack to open em up and let them feel true self worth and a growing love for life. But yeah, I will take whatever SE will give me to complete the story. Still, not matter what happens, the awesome relationship between Cloud and Aerith will always have a special place in my heart. I don't care how many people hate on it, to me, it is one of the most beautiful things I've seen in any video game so far.

[@Mukation]

@@BlackMetal-uv6qm Of course, she has immense impact on him and she is the only woman except Tifa that is allowed to engage in physical contact and "annoy" him without him objecting. Compare those two women to how he acts with Jessie in Remake and Yuffie in Rebirth. He enjoys their company, but rejects any notion of intimacy with them (Litterally pulling Jessie off him and objecting everytime Yuffie pretends Cloud is infatuated with him). But when i compare how the main story in Rebirth progressed, Aerith and Clouds relation doesn't deepen and evolve half as much as Cloud as his relationship with Tifa does. Cloud is visibly awkward whenever Tifa sees him and Aerith together and breaks eye contact with Tifa: in Kalm when she claims they were on a date, in Nibelhelm when he and Aerith sit on the water tower and Tifa waves, then if you take Aerith on the date and run into Tifa, he again looks away. That is not something he does when Aerith runs into Cloud and Tifa. He also tells Aerith he doesn't care about food, yey happily engages in favorite food talk with Tifa, even telling her wished he had eaten more at Seventh Heaven after she told him she's the one who cooked and made half the menu there. Tifa is also the only one he confesses his mental issues and opens up too. And he and Aerith does not get an almost kiss in the main story, only on the date, which the devs say are _all_ non canon. While Tifa initiates a kiss in Gongaga and Cloud DOES lean towards her aswell before they are interupted. And i can't see how all that is _not_ by design. Like, i love Aerith but i just did not see the same level of deepening of their relationship occouring in Rebirth as Cloud and Tifas relationship. But who knows, maybe Aerith and Clouds bond deepens in pt3 and blows me away. But take in all this i described with Tifa in Rebirth and ask yourself..... Why is Zack included in the story? The guy who sole purpose and desire is to _reunite_ with Aerith and died trying in CC? Why include him just to have Aerith pass him over? Like ignore personal desires and shipping and just look at the story. I just don't see how Cloud/Tifa and Aerith/Zack isn't what they're setting up. And this comes from a guy who honestly doesn't feel Aerith needed to reunite with Zack, not in life atleast, i thought her journey of moving on was so important to her that a reunion with Zack would devalue her 5 year struggle. But he is there. I can't fathom it isn't setting up a reunion. Anyways, no hate here, we all interpret the story, we'll have to wait and see for pt 3 :) As i said, maybe they'll blow me away.

[@Bahaumt86]

Without watching: Does it have spoiler for FF7 Rebirth?

[@AlleywayJack]

It very broadly talks about who/what the story seems to focus on now compared to the original, but no specific events. However there are some cutscene clips from FF7 Rebirth in the video.

[@mortalballgt52]

Wait, CloTi isn't canon? Rebirth seems to be throwing it all in our faces an awful lot. 😅

[@redbearington3345]

Cloud and Tifa live together after ff7 and take care of orphans.

[@Mangomesh]

Why not have both?

[@pongknuckle8933]

Cuz it’s Final Fantasy. Not Sexual Fantasy.

[@Mangomesh]

Have you played the remake or rebirth, when did story ever matter?

[@Mangomesh]

The problem is Advent Children remains canon with the remake trilogy. Last time I watched FF7AC Cloud was a delivery guy and Tifa was looking after orphans, I don't see a happy ever after with Cloud and Tifa 😢

[@danielcook7975]

They are canon, Nomura and devs have said so several times, people when Nomura and devs say that it means that it is true

[@landon1812]

you do realize Cloud's office is in Tifa's bar right? Also what's so bad about Tifa and Cloud taking care of orphans, I think that would solidify their commitment to each other, also Cloud stayed away from Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene because he got infected with Geostigma and was trying to find a cure for both him and Denzel, he was making hard decisions in a time when he wasn't in the best head space either. Not trying to bash on your comment, I just want to know why you think that.

[@vintage2983]

@@danielcook7975 There is no evidence to suggest that other than fanfiction, the new story is definitely more inline with the player choices. Nomura most recent interview suggested it was open ended. Also Nomura was not the writer of FF7, that was Kitase and Nojima. There was also a Square commissioned article (星を巡る乙女) that was published and it supervised by the original writer and another book 小説ファイナルファンタジー written by the original writer, that's the most canon thing you can reference briefly describing what Aerith felt (Her Beloved - Nojima wrote) even after death and meeting Cloud in the lifestream, along with other deceased characters interacting. Some evidence you can also reference Kingdom Hearts, Advent Children, FF Tactics and even Cloud’s mom? Cloud is searching for someone in those games/movie, it's either Sephiroth or Aerith. Ultimately the story is up to your interpretation, that’s how it was intended. English translation summary of book and article. thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-lifestream-black-and-lifestream-white/ finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Hoshi_o_Meguru_Otome

[@kellevichy]

They share a bed together in AC before he moves out due to his mental health relapsing and his own geostigma. That's in the On The Way To A Smile short stories. Recommend reading or listening to them because there is a lot of valuable information of what happens to the characters leading up to AC. They lived in the same home, shared the same bed, and shared a life.

[@vintage2983]

@@kellevichyyou’re really emphasizing them bedding together i get it lol. Id love to see any reference points to anything in relation (websites and translations), would be helpful. It’s a strange topic to invest decades into though, i know most are conflicted. I don’t care much about it these days the story is everywhere with newer iterations. Note I think a fanboy flagged my previous comment with reference points, I apologize... I'm too lazy to rewrite that again.

[@ChoompaLoompa1985-uw8lw]

The only canon thing I'm rooting for is for Cloud's mental well being years later on. The boy lost everybody he loved, got tossed into a pickle can and with the help of some friends, among whom 2 gorgeous women was somehow able to pull himself out of that mess. Now, considering Aerith is dead so there's just no point to ship anyone but the only default option that remains...If Cloud is happy with Tifa then great. But I'm betting his warmest memory would be of both of them when they were traveling...especially when they were both clinging to his arms. Lol.

[@pipsqueaksgaming7029]

You’re wrong. They need to end this nonsense once and for all. The toxicity of it all is so bad that new fans avoid this game because of it.

[@TonyKanameKuran]

How the fook is he wrong?

[@Luca-bel]

I use to always feel like Aerith and cloud just had good chemistry. One is confused and mopey, and the other lightens up the mood enough for the both of em, but when I played Crisis Core last year, I just could not deny the fact the Zack and Aerith connection was so real. Plus Aerith is kinda unsure in rebirth herself, sometimes even rooting for Tifa to sway him over. Tifas always been kinda boring to me, and cloud and her together would just be mundane imo. Man, ima just have him hook up with Elena ol goofy ahh

[@seoeunkwang8195]

It's absolutly not canon

[@wmen48]

Well for me Cloud x Tifa is not a romance. They act like old friends. The only moment a couple can have that is when they are an older marriage. On the other hand Aerith x Cloud looks like a romance but... Cloud being mentally sick it looks like he shouldn't really have a partner. Female friends yes but his mental state is childlike. Nojima wrote Cloud doesn't know basic life things. That's why I would go with Aerith because she is that healing person to a sick person. Again but... she is needed by the whole world not just Cloud. That's why Nojima wrote she is a part of him. That is a trope a goddess having her knight/hero. He is basicaly revering her like his goddess while having Tifa next to him and SE put them as a perpetual love triangle.

[@TonyKanameKuran]

Double standards. You're making Aerith a replacement and a whore. You're not accepting the fact that Cloud and Tifa share the same common bond and the very same scar that Aerith's killer Sephiroth had caused to their parents-- Claudia (Cloud's mother) was killed in a housefire and Tifa's father was brutally murdered. You're ignoring Nojima's original story and creating bullshit on the fucking fly. Aerith is not Tifa's love rival. They are ROOMMATES! Back in Remake: the now-immortal ancient told Cloud not to fall in love with her. Even if he thinks so, "IT'S NOT REAL." It's an illusion. And in Rebirth, Aerith had also told not to take his girlfriend Tifa for granted. Furthermore, Aerith still has feelings for her boyfriend Zack. In addition to that, she had touched the lifestream and felt Zack's hand... after he touches her hand in the alt timeline. The same Zack who was once dead back in Crisis Core is, in fact, alive after one of the white whispers (possibly Aerith) intercepted by one of Shinra's snipers. Now that Aerith is dead and won't be coming back... she will be reunited with her boyfriend Zack in the alt timeline. Meanwhile in the real world, we will witness the genetically enhanced SOLDIER Cloud (Sephiroth's puppet) ending up with the final stage of mako poisoning in Mideel. In the conclusion of the FFVII re-trilogy, Tifa will be playing the leading role and tell her team her confessions out loud that she don't give a shit about anything... except Cloud. Once the duo enters into the lifestream, only Tifa will have the heart and courage to restore Cloud's lost memory.

[@paulf631]

The way I always saw it cloud loves both tifa and aerith Equally both are Importance to a story indifferent ways i mean Spending a lot of time with aerith gives her death more of a gut Punch Then Reconnecting with tifa again gives you more Appreciation for her more for her character even though she's always been great So in a way yes I ship cloud and aerith but I am never going to down play tifas Importance to the story But If we're going to go by advent children he definitely wants to go with the Promise land with aerith

[@elowei9919]

I think people need to stop living in their headcanon of cloud and Tifa. 1 year after the events of advent children is dirge of Cerberus. And that canonly states multiple times in English and Japanese that Tifa and cloud are still nothing more than friends. It’s literally stated in both versions of the dirge of Cerberus character descriptions. So people staying “advent children made them canon” isn’t true. Rebirth. The rebirth ultimania stated outright the kiss between cloud and Tifa was fan service, embarrassing for the directors to create, and that it doesn’t line with the main story. Again you don’t have to like it, but that IS what the directors have STATED outright. They also had aeriths date as clouds romantic date in clouds character description in the new ultimania. Imagine dating Tifa which is optional, and then 2 chapters later dating Aerith for one final date. Which is canon. Main story. Aerith has a total of 5 dates with cloud on rebirth. The clocktower date and chapter 14 date are canon. Then there are 3 optional dates. Chapter 8 gold saucer, chapter 12 gold saucer and the Costa de soul side quest with Aerith. Tifa only gets 2, which are also the 2 gold saucer dates. And they are both optional. Also Aerith is Princess Rosa in 4 dates out of 6 dates. She is the Rosa for her own date, barrets, reds and shines rejects. Keep in mind as well. Reds gondola talk with cloud is about keeping Aerith safe. Barrets date is telling cloud to tell her how he feels before it’s to late, as Barret talks about his wife he lost. Keep in mind although Barret doesn’t say the girls name, cloud doesn’t lose Tifa, and barrets words of telling cloud to tell her before it’s to late is clearly marked to Aerith. As for pushing Zack and Aerith, clearly players still seem to ignore zacks knows Aerith has feelings for cloud. Marlene tells him. 🤦‍♀️ Like if you want to ship cloud and Tifa that’s fine. But saying “there canon” there not. Sorry there not. Just like cloud and Aerith are also not canon. Now if this changes in the final game then fair enough. But as it stands now. No. Not canon. And not being pushed more than the other.

[@nickmurkel2469]

Given how horribly AC handled those two as a couple, I kind of find it believable to o. That doesn't mean a remake of both can't fix that little problem though, I mean Rebirth clearly did a lot to fix the ambiguity as it is.

[@xxreyoxx]

Ship names are so cringe man lol "Cloti", "Claerith".. Cloud belongs with Tifa and thats that!

[@ryujin8754]

I think Cloud and Aerith will get happy ending in Part 3 :)

[@alyss4192]

Just like in AC :)

[@pseudocide.]

long story short - yes lol