Should Developers Be Allowed to Remove Paid-For Content? | Slightly Civil War

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The Escapist

The Escapist

Күн бұрын

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@theescapist
@theescapist 4 жыл бұрын
Note: We have split the episodes into the main animated show and now the Slightly Post-War Podcast. You can find it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYLFf62cmqutors
@theescapist
@theescapist 4 жыл бұрын
@@jombilywobbily They'll go public the day of the public release of each SCW episode. And yes, there's a playlist.
@emiliobatres9581
@emiliobatres9581 4 жыл бұрын
I guess that if the content is completely unutilized, outdated, or in need of fixing, it should be allowed as long as the content returns, improved with better content
@dekdenfor9770
@dekdenfor9770 4 жыл бұрын
i really liked thrm combined, why the split?
@theescapist
@theescapist 4 жыл бұрын
@@dekdenfor9770 Viewership drop-off was 70% at the end of the animated episode which was causing a significant decline in viewership and hurt the shows visibility.
@ArbitraryHero
@ArbitraryHero 4 жыл бұрын
@@theescapist That dang blasted algorithm! Makes sense though... Still happy the podcast is available on KZbin.
@j.dimond252
@j.dimond252 4 жыл бұрын
You can practically hear Yahtzee's insides tearing with each sentence in defense of this.
@metronicmagician1816
@metronicmagician1816 4 жыл бұрын
I think he’s good for the general concept since there are a lot of games that show this to work like Minecraft, No Man’s Sky, Terraria, etc. All of these games wouldn’t be anywhere near what they are if they didn’t change the game after making it. That said this debate clearly has the context of taking content away, and Jack just fucking ran with that.
@lc9245
@lc9245 4 жыл бұрын
@@metronicmagician1816 even among those cases, there are arguments to be made. In general, the model of releasing a base game then keep on working on it sounds nice.Similar to MMO, where developers releasing patches and you have new content to try out, this model might keep the game fresh for longer. The problem, to me, is that they are selling an unfinished project. For every Minecraft, there are dozens of games out there that are left unfinished and players dissatisfied like StarForge. Even then, MineCraft ended up still being worked on till this day, while the developers have been selling another version of their game on another platform while cutting off support to their old version in the near future. No Man’s Sky was also hyped to hell out of the door, so players can wait for it to be done in the future. As a whole, this was always a slippery slope. There’s no guarantee anything when we make our purchase now. We are essentially buying a pass to a backstage practice of a developing play.
@metronicmagician1816
@metronicmagician1816 4 жыл бұрын
@@lc9245 I could just do the reverse of your argument for my side as well. For every fully made game that waited to be released until it was finished you have a dozen Star Citizen’s that will never come out, or games that came out unfinished, broken, or just bad because they were forced to come out, and didn’t care to fix them. We can go in circles on this, but in the end you have to understand that there is a wealth of beloved games that only exist because of this model. Also even if the early access concept didn’t exist a lot of those games you talked about would still come out, they would just be calling themselves finished games without solving the problem. Also it’s not as simple as every game comes out unfinished cause a lot of them are finished, and they just add more to it. Look at Stardew Valley, that game came out as a finished project, and yet it keeps getting free updates that add new content to it. Same with Minecraft, after it’s 1.0 update it was considered a finished game, but it still got and is getting new massive updates for free. Another thing is if you were to stop this concept of altering games after launch DLC would be gone as well, and sure maybe we wouldn’t have the plethora of cheap and dumb cosmetic DLC stuff, but we would also loose Ballad of Gay Tony, Minerva’s den, Old World Blues, Blood and Wine, Tiny Tina’s Assault on Dragon’s Keep, Mooncrash, etc. These are fantastic experiences that wouldn’t exist if you were to stop creation of a game once it’s released. Look there is a lot of shitty practices, but getting rid of the idea of updating a game isn’t going to solve it because that’s not where the problem lies. One last thing. What are you going on about with minecraft? Yeah they made Bedrock edition, but that was just to consolidate all of the other non PC versions of Minecraft together. Like they show no sign in stoping Java updates (the fact that we just got a 1.17 snapshot should prove that), and there is no reason for them to since the vast majority of players are still on Java edition. Now I don’t care for their micro transaction practices in Bedrock, but they’re really no different than the map and texture pack micro transactions that existed before on those platforms.
@lc9245
@lc9245 4 жыл бұрын
​@@metronicmagician1816 You see, because we all accept games to be fixed after release that the industry is in its current state. Of course you can make arguments about games being fixed in post, I can also argue that Star Citizen is already "released" because people have effectively bought the game already. The current model allows for such things. We can look at the region where such practice is more limited: Japan. Japanese games, especially big budget ones, don't receive much updates after release barring the occasional fixes. I much prefer that. Even games like Stardew would be better if it could have been released complete. That's the crux of the argument, releasing games when it's in a state where the developers feel satisfied is ideal, but it's no longer realistic because as long as we have a big marketing campaign, people already showering them in cash, effectively encourage developers to make game as a service. I don't hate game as a service, I know it allows small and independent developers to survive and thrive. Star Citizen can only live because of such model, so is Stardew Valley and the likes. Still, from a consumer perspective, we are paying more for less, there shouldn't be any argument about whether it's good or not. It's clearly not good, but it's the best we can have right now. However, I think it's always better to support small independent game developers who release finished projects like Paper Please instead of infinitely prolonging a project that's effectively will never be released fully like Minecraft. I still play both, but if I only have 15 bucks in hand, I know which one I will spend it on.
@metronicmagician1816
@metronicmagician1816 4 жыл бұрын
@@lc9245 are you daft? Do you seriously think a game that gets update can only be unfinished? Do you seriously think a developer can’t create a complete product, release it, and then think of other things to add to it? That a person doesn’t have more ideas for their product. For the sake of the argument let’s look at Stardew Valley. That game released fully finished, and then the developer looked at the reviews and wants from the players, and added stuff in (mainly giving spouses more dialogue). Then he up and just added more content for free to an already finished game. That’s not him denying the player content until later that’s him thinking of something to put into the game, and then putting it in. You seem to fail to grasp the basic concept of people wanting to continue supporting a product. For your sake let’s look at your world where games don’t get to update once released. All that will do is create a world where games are shoveled out and dropped the moment they become a product. You won’t get continual support for a game because all they can do now is work on the next game. If the game has game breaking bugs that will never get fixed because whoops we have to focus on our next game now. Sorry we can’t go back and fix it since we can’t now, once the game is released it’s finished and it’s a finished product because we released it. You’re not going to get an industry that stops releasing unfinished games, you’re just making an industry that doesn’t fix the unfinished games that get released. If you want an example look at the old cartridge era of games. Those games were broken buggy messes half the time because they couldn’t be fixed or updated without having to recall and reship the cartridges yet games kept coming out as unplayable buggy messes because they had deadlines to meet. That’s the world you’re arguing for and it didn’t work. Now we have games that are finalized that just get new updates. Let’s look at Minecraft again cause it seems like you’re failing to grasp even its simplistic content design. A person pays for the game once. Then the developers make new content for the game which you get for free. Then they release this with a few extra bug fixes, and they let people play in it for a year or so while they work on the next update. Finally they announce the new content that the people are getting for free drumming up hype for the game. This is how it normally works, and here’s how your argument works. They makes a full game, people, buy it, and play in it for a while. They then announce Minecraft 2, they release it, and people pay for it again. They then announce Minecraft 3, they release it, and people pay for it again. This goes on indefinitely making propel pay full price for the practically the same game. Here’s the thing I’m not making this cycle up for the argument either this is the FIFA, Madden, and NBL games model. They just create another version of the game for its yearly release that doesn’t change anything beyond a handful of mechanics they add to it, and there’s no reason to change this model because people buy into it. Look I’m fine with games having an end to their development cycle, and that bar from a few cases a game shouldn’t forever be added onto, but what you’re wanting for is worse than what we have because the problems at hand don’t get touched by the change. The problems are too grand a scale of games being made too quickly with too little respect for the worker. It has nothing to do with if a game can or can’t be updated because by the end all that matters is some content gets release so they can get on to the next project.
@SpikeRosered
@SpikeRosered 4 жыл бұрын
The ones where Yahtzee is arguing against his own opinion are the best.
@MegaD42
@MegaD42 4 жыл бұрын
He should just take both sides.
@databoy5
@databoy5 4 жыл бұрын
Knowing how Yahtzee really feels about this topic from Zero Punctuation, I can't imagine it was easy to make this.
@paco2761
@paco2761 4 жыл бұрын
It's funny, I never heard the word ensmallen before I listened to this series. I don't know why it's a perfectly cromulent word.
@odinshell
@odinshell 4 жыл бұрын
An ignoble spirit ensmallens the biggest man.
@Shl0kk
@Shl0kk 4 жыл бұрын
If embiggen is good enough for a former US president, ensmallen is good enough for us too
@TheBronyBraeburn
@TheBronyBraeburn 4 жыл бұрын
Patches are good, but removing content is not.
@elizasteele9066
@elizasteele9066 4 жыл бұрын
Removing paid for content after the purchase (unless made free, even then) will allow companies to not even need to deliver, and you know companies would and do exploit that method.
@AlmightyPolarBear
@AlmightyPolarBear 4 жыл бұрын
How low and greedy can companies get? Do we need a revolution? What is so wrong with making a good amount of money for a quality item?
@01oo011
@01oo011 4 жыл бұрын
Because they deliver now?
@masterSageHarpuia
@masterSageHarpuia 4 жыл бұрын
The real topic that needs to be taken seriously is not altering a game after launch, it is planned obsolescence of games. Producing games that people pay for, only for the server they run on to be shut down and there is no way to recover the game in any sense. Cursedfarms has covered this topic many times and is the greatest concern to him.
@buddybleeyes
@buddybleeyes 4 жыл бұрын
My argument to this is no, too many games have had lootboxes, in game advertisements, and bad monetisation shoved in after a few months. Games have definitely been very broken on release too, and stripping content out of a game sucks when you've already paid for it :/ The only thing i can see as being positive is adding additional content and bug fixing
@02MANAGERB
@02MANAGERB 4 жыл бұрын
Big fan of having the animated and podcast segments separate
@wumbosaurus9121
@wumbosaurus9121 3 жыл бұрын
Imagine this: You go into a store to buy a pair of shoes. You see a pair that looks quite nice, you wear it around the store and you love it. Fast forward a little bit, they're now your favourite shoes and you wear them everywhere. Next day you wake up and someone's stolen your shoes and replaced them with ones that look sort of similar but they're made of really cheap material, there are sewn-on patches where holes once were, they're a bit manky and a little bit stinky, frankly they are quite shit overall. I don't want my product to change after I've bought it, I bought this thing specifically because I liked what I saw and I liked how it was originally. Waking up to see that bits of the thing are missing or different when I've already poured a week or two's worth of work into the thing just really pisses me off a bit and shits on the company's or developer's reputation.
@rumotu
@rumotu 4 жыл бұрын
Prior to this "release then fix" psychology people was paid to test the game, find and report bugs. Now people are paying to find and report bugs. They are robbing testers from their work.
@Claude_Lib
@Claude_Lib 4 жыл бұрын
Some developers should be allowed to change the game post release, like Hello Games with No Man's Sky. Some other developers should not be allowed to, like Rockstar Games, who, toname just a few things, forcibly removed the multiplayer and a major part of the soundtrack, which I paid for with my hard earned money, from GTA IV and ruined V/Online with increasingly ridiculous updates that destroy the balance, inflate the economy and introduce bugs to both singleplayer and multiplayer that will never get fixed, all that at the same time.
@thjalfi4606
@thjalfi4606 4 жыл бұрын
I guess it depends how you define content If bugs are content, yes If they want to add microtransactions, no
@AnkfordPlays
@AnkfordPlays 4 жыл бұрын
I think the worst case is series like GTA where they started patching out songs because the license ran out
@smeghead250
@smeghead250 4 жыл бұрын
So seeing as I'm paying for the Escapist, does the podcast count as removing paid for content? (Just messing, keep up the good work!)
@tommysalty5864
@tommysalty5864 4 жыл бұрын
Well, next time we will get only Jack's arguments, and only high tier supporters will hear the entirety of the debate ;)
@rikou1986
@rikou1986 4 жыл бұрын
The biggest issue is adding mtx/adverts after the reviews have passed and people have bought the game already.
@QueerBiNatureNYC
@QueerBiNatureNYC 4 жыл бұрын
What we are dealing with here is bait-and-switch and it is illegal. Though by this time I wouldn't be surprised if they made everyone digital-sign a TOS waiving the consumers' right for legal recourse.
@HoundOfwar1
@HoundOfwar1 4 жыл бұрын
See the thing is even when Yahtzee is arguing something he doesn't like, he's just so much better at arguing than Jack. He's just incredibly good at getting an argument across
@sublimed5155
@sublimed5155 4 жыл бұрын
he has made a career about it... Zero Punctuation has been built on that...
@jacks.cosplay
@jacks.cosplay 4 жыл бұрын
Adding content is fine, modifying existing content maybe, removing......well if its badly designed or unnecesary then possibly?
@MrWilson812
@MrWilson812 4 жыл бұрын
Destiny was different. They locked off content from the game and tried to sell it back as DLC. They got away with that with the first game, yet people were shocked when they tried it again with the second.
@wilson6663
@wilson6663 4 жыл бұрын
As someone who plays Destiny, the content they are removing was made obsolete by their design and less than 1% of the playerbase even touched it anymore. So I think most people were fine with removing it to "make room" for new content since they didn't play it anyways. However, they badly mangled the last few seasons and have completely turned me off the game for now so I'm not even going to buy the upcoming expansion anyways.
@PANCAKEMINEZZ
@PANCAKEMINEZZ 4 жыл бұрын
@@wilson6663 Less than 1%? That doesn't seem right for a campaign that the game CONSTANTLY keeps referencing to and was the main campaign of the game. As badly written as the Red War, Curse, and Warmind are, it's still ridiculous that content is going away. The main reason was so Destiny wasn't so big, but that in and out of itself was Bungie's fault to begin with because they couldn't compress their files properly and apparently we're working on a terrible engine. So now they are taking HUGE swathes of content out, content people paid for at one point with no compensation whatsoever, and all because of their own blunders. At the very least they could've provided some in game compensation like a ton of Silver or some items, or hell, even just making really grindy challenges/raids from said DLC instant drops would've been nice. That being said, I'm still miffed even Season Pass stuff goes away, as Destiny is the last service game that has an excuse at all for locking off past seasons rewards that ALSO include exotics and full on armor sets and weapons.
@wilson6663
@wilson6663 4 жыл бұрын
@@PANCAKEMINEZZ That stat came from Bungie when they were justifying the move, how all the content that is being vaulted is not being played at all in recent months. Also once you've completed the content there is literally no reason to do it again aside from wanting to see the meh story again. So it sucks for new players, but the majority of their player base is unaffected, even if it's not a good thing. I do agree with the Season Pass stuff though, and it's part of the reason I started losing interest in the past few seasons. Just that I felt forced to complete the content and pass out of that Fear Of Missing Out on content that disappears after the season ends. The game feels so light on content because it's either outdated and not rewarding or is removed after it's short time in the spotlight. I know they said they were working on the FOMO issues but I'm certainly not buying it blindly this time.
@ClockworkBard
@ClockworkBard 4 жыл бұрын
@@PANCAKEMINEZZ I buy the statistic, but I think it's both loaded and flawed in its logic. First, you can't keep replaying the campaigns without making (and probably deleting) a new character or joining someone who hasn't played them yet. It's kinda bullshit to prevent replaying them as a design decision, then claim nobody is playing them. But more over, how much something is played is not a metric of quality; just what you've encouraged them to play. If 99% of your game is grinding the same incentivized, redundant content over and over, I don't think the appropriate response to that is "better make it 100%!" The Red War was, if nothing else, a decent first impression that made the game feel full and polished before dropping players into the shallow event grind. Without that initial perception of value, I can't imagine near as many people are going to feel compelled to drop stacks on the DLC campaigns.
@chaotea2042
@chaotea2042 4 жыл бұрын
Really love hearing Yahtzee say this through gritted teeth!
@DeoFayte
@DeoFayte 4 жыл бұрын
The broadness of the general question leads to the answer having to be yes, absolutely. Plenty of those changes are improvements, additional content, bug fixes. Those are not only allowed, not only should be allowed, but encouraged. Specific changes however should be open to having different answers IMO. Can you imagine a game removing a DLC after millions of people purchase it, just ripping out the content with some reason like "it doesn't fit our new vision of the game". Cosmetics? $20 skin you purchase goes "poof" would be unacceptable to any reasonable individual.
@NekoiNemo
@NekoiNemo 4 жыл бұрын
Jack has "F Q" written on his hats. Can't help but feel like it's a subtle message to us, viewers...
@tommysalty5864
@tommysalty5864 4 жыл бұрын
I think it stands for "Fine Quality" of the video and the audience!;)
@SinaelDOverom
@SinaelDOverom 4 жыл бұрын
The argument "For" only makes sense if developers were speaking the truth in it improving the game. But they don't. Bungie removed content from Destiny 2 that people enjoyed, and capped the power level of the old items people liked to make them useless in the new seasons. The power Creep was always a problem in online games and Bungie solved it in destiny 2 with infusion, allowing people to keep using the gear they liked in new content. People liked that and that was one of th reason I played Destiny 2 in the first place. But now years later they removed that by capping the power level of the old gear and you can't use it anymore in the new content, bringing the situation back to where its started, with the same problem the game had when its first released. This is scummy and wrong on all levels.
@HenkkaArtGames
@HenkkaArtGames 4 жыл бұрын
Fixing bugs after release is favor to the customers who bought the product expecting an advertised experience and not getting it due to bugs, glitches and whatnot. Bugfixing is not something that should be cheered on. It is the bare minimum a developer can do to keep their promise and deliver what customers paid for. Or else there needs to be an unlimited right to refund the product if it is not functioning as promised, in every aspect. Fixing bugs is not changing the content; it is making the content it was advertised to be when the money changes hands. Selling content and then removing it is, for all intents and purposes, theft. You sold a product and got money from it. If you take it back, bar access to it from those who paid for it, you are quite literally taking away other people's property, regardless of how game companies want to try and define who owns what digital content. Selling content needs to be redefined as renting content and the price should then go down day by day until the content is removed so that those who buy it on the last week of being available, get to pay less because they have less time to enjoy it.
@mikaxms
@mikaxms 4 жыл бұрын
How about removing content already in the game, and then selling it as dlc? Sounds like something Bungee would do.
@frazermarka
@frazermarka 4 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised they didn't reference one of the episodes of changing a game post-release. No Man Sky. Much improved by that. Yeah, you should get the option, but when one of the selling points of a game like Destiny 2 was its evolving world, you cant complain simply because it evolves away from your desires.
@TheHutcharmy
@TheHutcharmy 4 жыл бұрын
So I am in theory opposed to removing old content, but the Destiny team justified it well. They’re removing content to make the game more streamlines and easier to build upon in the future, and they are specifically removing content that shows very low user engagement. It’s still not ideal but it’s a reasonable choice in context. Plus they’re saying it may return in the future or rotate in/out, which feels like a good long term plan.
@johnromero6315
@johnromero6315 4 жыл бұрын
This is pretty much how I feel about it. There's a difference in a game like CoD removing MP maps that you paid for after the fact, and game like Destiny that's trying (to varying degrees of success) to be an evolving world removing content that almost nobody touches anymore so that they can continue to evolve their world. I can understand not liking the fact that your losing content you paid for, but I think it's far outweighed by the possibilities it allows in Destiny's case.
@TheHutcharmy
@TheHutcharmy 4 жыл бұрын
@@johnromero6315 Agreed. Also the weird distinction with Destiny is that most of the content that's leaving (except 2 raids) are from the F2P content, which did cost money at one point but has been free for several years. So not everyone paid in, and if they did it was several years ago and they've most likely exhausted it by now.
@Zye1984
@Zye1984 4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I think bug fixing after the fact is good, but there still should be more quality assurance before release. There's a difference between making something near perfect before release then tweaking it after and releasing something half done and fixing it later. Also, game developers in japan used to, and hopefully not anymore, stay in their offices and almost work non-stop to perfect games in the 16 bit era. That should NEVER happen..
@asherclay5870
@asherclay5870 4 жыл бұрын
I just like how they are having more fun with this than anything.
@PatrickZysk
@PatrickZysk 4 жыл бұрын
I think that games should be able to make changes to the game, as long as the user is allowed to download old versions where the content still exists. Maybe you can't use items or whatever from the old patches in the current supported version, but the old content should at least be there if you would like to see it. Minecraft is a great example. They replaced the classic Zombie Pigman enemy with a new piggy enemy in a recent patch. However, if you love the Zombie Pigman and can't bear to play Minecraft without it, the old versions of the game are still available for the user to download.
@fish4198
@fish4198 4 жыл бұрын
Bungie did the exact same thing with the first Destiny game. I remember getting pretty annoyed that I couldn't access certain maps and content anymore and made a point of never buying anything from anti-consumer Bungie ever again. Sounds like I made the right choice considering they're up to their same tricks with the sequel.
@fakskis
@fakskis 4 жыл бұрын
maybe it'll make people think twice before buying micro transactions if the devs could just take it out at the snap of a finger
@vallejomach6721
@vallejomach6721 4 жыл бұрын
Yea, but it won't though.
@AlmightyPolarBear
@AlmightyPolarBear 4 жыл бұрын
@@vallejomach6721 Cause children don't pay attention to this stuff, and some people are lazy. I was playing Friday the 13th and talked with a 7 year old child that only plays that, Dead by Daylight and GTA V. Asking their parents for money for DLC, and getting it.
@vallejomach6721
@vallejomach6721 4 жыл бұрын
@@AlmightyPolarBear The VAST majority of players that play games simply don't take any notice or interest in what's going on in and around the games that they play. They just don't. The casuals always outnumber the active vocal minorities that make their voices heard on a game's forum etc. That's a hard concept for some people to grasp, but it's true. Even if those vocal minorities think some change to a game is the most heinous and despicable thing ever...it doesn't matter most of the time as they'll be outnumbered by tens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times to one by people that just don't give a shit...people that have already been acclimatized to the tactics employed by developers and publishers and no longer see anything wrong with overly aggressive monetization...AND those that have never known anything different. The whole thing has already been largely normalized.
@AlmightyPolarBear
@AlmightyPolarBear 4 жыл бұрын
@@vallejomach6721 Yeah, I know. It's why things get worse over better in society in general. People don't care unless they are getting something they want. Games, money, fame, success. Video games are going to be more of incomplete messes than before. People don't realize normalizing something isn't always fine. This is why history must be kept to remind our species of the same mistakes and corruption.
@swine13
@swine13 3 жыл бұрын
I tell ya, if I ever get my hands on this "people" everyone keeps talking about... well... they're gonna be sorry!
@seb5542
@seb5542 4 жыл бұрын
I mean the thing is that the large majority of the content being moved to the content vault is in the free version of the game. And that they will be bringing a lot of these things back at later dates when they want to do things with them, it's just to keep size down. Yeah it's really annoying for those who paid for that content like me before it was free to play content, but we will see them again at some point and it means they can continue work on it without it getting to massive file sizes.
@gingainfinity1034
@gingainfinity1034 4 жыл бұрын
Its also they need to change the way they coded things in the game and it doesnt allow what they want to do with the game which is also stuff the playerbase has been asking after
@seb5542
@seb5542 4 жыл бұрын
@@gingainfinity1034 exactly. I can't believe I forgot that lol. Possibly the most important thing about it.
@KusacUK
@KusacUK 4 жыл бұрын
I’ve had good value out of my original investment in the game, so I’m perfectly happy with the changes. Also, I like that they’re not just taking stuff away without weaving it into the storyline.
@seb5542
@seb5542 4 жыл бұрын
@@KusacUK same. I forgot to mention the story line lol, thats an amazing point.
@GINTegg
@GINTegg 4 жыл бұрын
One big thing you guys forgot. The destiny content is going to be readded at a later time. And also the content removed is mostly the lesser played areas. I don't have a side here I just believe this info is important to the conversation
@lunar-1340
@lunar-1340 4 жыл бұрын
Sure it is. Sorry, I’m cynical about them ever bringing it back despite what they’re saying.
@leinadreign3510
@leinadreign3510 4 жыл бұрын
removing paid content is a really dick move. Even if you hide it behind the "service" argument. So you can loose your car, even if you paid for, just because the manufacturer decides you should drive another one this year. Same for adding casino mechanics later on and putting stuff behind that eploitative paywall
@ishakuraigami6171
@ishakuraigami6171 4 жыл бұрын
Yahtzee can't even defend the destiny one. It goes against his very soul. Edited because I can't type
@TheKeeperOfKnowledge
@TheKeeperOfKnowledge 4 жыл бұрын
I've been watching too much Zero Punctuation. At some point in the video, my mind started to replace mentions of the word "game" with the word "poo". It puts the concept of satisfying releases in a whole new context!
@GaudyMarko
@GaudyMarko 4 жыл бұрын
patching software regardless of its application is standard practice. Imagine if windows stopped putting out security updates.
@SpikeStarkey
@SpikeStarkey 4 жыл бұрын
1:32 As sarcastic as Yahtzee is here, he's right on the money with this opening statement. People were told this was the future and that it was better than owning physical things. Now that it's here and companies can alter the product you've licensed on the fly, you don't get to complain about it. Lie in the bed you've made.
@drdca8263
@drdca8263 4 жыл бұрын
simple answer : changes are fine as long as nothing stops me or tries to hinder me from running an old version instead of a later version. (I don't address games which are primarily online experiences because I think they should be classified as edge cases a ways away from the most central sense of "video game", and therefore to be handled separately as an edge case.)
@cr0mag732
@cr0mag732 4 жыл бұрын
Destiny 2 runs way better on my PC now, no more stutters and the load times are vastly improved. I'm also very unhappy they took away half the game, if they bring back the old planets with the optimisations I would be happy. Obviously the best decision would have been to optimise the old planets in the background and just switch it up when they were done
@SeRgEaNt_RaNdOm
@SeRgEaNt_RaNdOm 4 жыл бұрын
I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in this debate that some companies like Activision, EA and I think 2K added microtransactions and invasive advertising into games weeks after release so that those negative aspects won't be caught by most game reviewers
@richardrussell7082
@richardrussell7082 4 жыл бұрын
I love how Jack says that he 'will be' the angry old man that nobody listens to, as if he isn't already ... >_
@joshuaclare4860
@joshuaclare4860 4 жыл бұрын
My biggest concern with the Bungo devs removing a lot of the content is that much of that content was used by New Light players (players who play the game Free-to-Play and haven't bought any expansions). Dropping several locations, 3 campaigns, 3 raids, and all of the exotic quests related to said locations is a pretty big hit to the amount of mid-late game content that New Light players have access to. The main counter-argument here is that Bungus have said that other content will be available for New Light players (so things like the content related to the Forsaken expansion and *maybe* Shadowkeep but I doubt it), but it still feels like Beengo is trying to nudge people towards buying in when there's a very real possibility that people don't have the money to do so. However, my opinion would change depending on whether they make the returning Cosmodrome location and the old raid they're bringing back New Light accessible alongside making Forsaken New Light accessible, that way those who can't necessarily afford the new content will still have some pretty substantial stuff to dig into. p.s: yes I do recognise that those on Xbone have access to all the expansions for free via gamepass, I'm looking more so at the rest of the playerbase.
@JeepXLC
@JeepXLC 4 жыл бұрын
i am the rest of the player base you mention. for the most part, i was a solo player. and they are removing a ton of content that i can do as a solo player, and replacing with pinnacle content that i can't do as a solo player. i took the hint, and abandoned the game. and as a side note, that game is a grind. for the amount of work it takes to earn ANYTHING good in that game, they should not be removing the means to earn those rewards, and they should not be retiring those rewards. sunsetting and vaulting are BS.
@sublimed5155
@sublimed5155 4 жыл бұрын
So.... Why does Yahtzee never get the good side?
@ezyom9244
@ezyom9244 4 жыл бұрын
To be honest the content being removed isn't played often if at all And if the content is replaced with content that will be paid then I'm okay with it
@jasonblazgk9973
@jasonblazgk9973 4 жыл бұрын
Just as a bit of feedback, I'm enjoying the addition of the podcast to this series. The split into 2 videos is a further improvement to the format also. It came across a bit unusual having the style switch from a focused animated short to a podcast format.
@josh8901
@josh8901 4 жыл бұрын
I believe the podcast was always there. I think you can find a link to the podcast on soundcloud(?) in the older videos
@Segan260798
@Segan260798 4 жыл бұрын
I feel like Yahtzee had an aneurism after this
@Modie
@Modie 4 жыл бұрын
Tbh, I don't really care if there are changes afterwards. Mostly, because they are usually positive. Now, if I was affected by such a negative change, then I would learn my lesson to just not trust this certain developer anymore that they allow me to play the full experience and the next time, I won't buy the game at full price or not at all. There is no "should" or "shouldn't", you as the person have to figure out if you want to support it. It's nothing someone could/should answer for you.
@ReikokuNinja
@ReikokuNinja 4 жыл бұрын
You should look into Pagan Online, a multiplayer game launched with no multiplayer, then the multiplayer was added, eventually dropped, and now its a single player game with no further updates and non refundable.
@RoVirus
@RoVirus 4 жыл бұрын
Tbh vaulting makes sense in a f2p model. Fomo is pretty much their business model but on a paid product it looks incredibly scummy. At leas imo.
@Whawpenshaw
@Whawpenshaw 4 жыл бұрын
With larger and larger games, is it realistic to expect "no cash until finished"? If a delay to "finish" costs more than your remaining budget, is it not better to release early, get cash flow, then fix the game vs scrapping the entire game and going bankrupt? Obviously this doesn't describe companies like EA or Ubisoft, but it's not as simple as everyone always makes it out to be.
@ekimmak
@ekimmak 4 жыл бұрын
It feels like both of them are being incredibly sarcastic about the whole thing, because the lines were cut in such a way both sides have negatives.
@KevinSheppard
@KevinSheppard 4 жыл бұрын
For me, I don't think they should. The version of Vice City I paid for on Steam had the Lionel Richie and the MJ tracks, now they're gone with the last update 😤
@noodlethenerdle
@noodlethenerdle 4 жыл бұрын
In Bungies defense... the game has gotten too big, the file can take up half a consoles memory or a giant chunk of a PC, taking hours to download... the content that's being removed is out of date and not relevant anymore. Plus it's content no one plays unless they want a trip down memory lane or abusing a bug.
@pathleader64
@pathleader64 4 жыл бұрын
i don't mind the vaulting of content is destiny 2 (i am a player) not everyone has a hard drive that can hold 180 gig of content and it's not being removed they have admitted it may come back
@metronicmagician1816
@metronicmagician1816 4 жыл бұрын
Even if I didn’t agree with Yahtzee’s side I would still say he won this. Ignoring the fact that the thing being debated is changing games after launch in it’s entirety so siding with Jack would mean games like Minecraft, Terraria, Stardew Valley, and No Man’s Sky wouldn’t really exist. Games that are/were built on continual support wouldn’t exist in this world, and people love those games (even No Man’s Sky). Ignoring all that Jack just doesn’t bring a good concept to the table. Instead of the minor inconvenience and annoyance we have today he would prefer a worse situation than what we have right now where crunch is just way worse and even more ingrained since it would be even more of a requirement that it is now. Congrats to Yahtzee for taking the side that had the big bad on it and somehow ending up looking like the good guy in this.
@linusdn2777
@linusdn2777 4 жыл бұрын
Hearing Jack Packard talk makes me think of Prereq. Kinda sad...
@jonathankent1517
@jonathankent1517 4 жыл бұрын
Here's my spicy tikka masala take... Developers can change the game at any time after the point sale... BUT in return, the customer should also be allowed to return their game for a full refund at any time, regardless of how long ago they purchased the game. If they don't like it and try to give Yahtzee's reason of "But we need that money to make other games", all I have to say is "That's the free market, baby". BTW I know, as we all should by now, that the "free market" is bullshit, corporations and the capitalists who own say they want a free market, but what they really want is a market that they themselves completely control, "Freedom for me but not for thee" and all that. Also, the word "ensmallen" is one I need to use more frequently.
@Immudzen
@Immudzen 4 жыл бұрын
I think things should be changeable after release but I don't like the idea of removing stuff unless it is just a broken part of the game and nobody is using it. Look at games like Everquest. They have been around for about 20 years and has had the engine completely rebuilt at least twice. Without constant upgrades there is no chance it would run on modern hardware. Other games I have played launched with very complex systems for crafting and other aspects and later completely rebuilt the system to be much more manageable.
@starbruno769
@starbruno769 4 жыл бұрын
Have you ever heard of "games as a service"? They have to change because that's what keeps them running. And bug fixes or other major updates are what give multiple games their replayability. I'm on Yahtzee's side here
@mr.j7444
@mr.j7444 4 жыл бұрын
damn they separated the podcasts now that sucks the two together usually made perfect length videos for my work commute.
@Roariken1
@Roariken1 4 жыл бұрын
I don't mind updating games, like adding new game + and stuff, but taking stuff out I paid extra for seems unreasonable
@digitalbooklett9357
@digitalbooklett9357 4 жыл бұрын
Its always fun to see Yahtzee fight for things he doesnt believe it, but I think thats what makes these such nice debates Also, weirdly in defense of changing games: does this apply to MMO's? I feel like thats something whose entire culture has developed around constantly patching and advancing content. PvP games as well. But perhaps this is neither here nor there.
@Pr0manStream
@Pr0manStream 4 жыл бұрын
Having to argue against ones own points is so silly - poor Yahtz. Obviously dev's shouldn't be allowed to just cut content like that. Content that has deliberately been cut from a game that has already been paid for - for whatever reasons possible - is just as dumb as cutting content from a game pre-launch only to then sell it as Day-1 DLC, just with the furniture shuffled around a bit. If you remove content, be it the lore surrounding certain parts of a game, actually playable content like instances or raids or even something as mundane as some maps you will inevitably lose context for following events as those have been crafted with said context in mind. Hell, it's the same for certain MMOs that decided to change its base maps around drastically with followup addons. Now all the old context is lost to time and space and it's basically having as much impact to play as pissing in the wind would have.
@Fourtytwo4242
@Fourtytwo4242 4 жыл бұрын
Man you can hear Yahtzee's soul leave his body and how he became a mindless shell.
@finalbladecrisis
@finalbladecrisis 4 жыл бұрын
I have to throw this in here. I play destiny, and have no real issue with the content vaulting, with the condition that bungie sticks to what they said about it not being a permenant thing, and the content in question will return over time. But we shall see.
@omegazero5884
@omegazero5884 4 жыл бұрын
in defense of Bungie and Bungie specifically deleting content from what I understand techinqually speaking that content and most of Base Destiny 2 was made using wrong coding ai spaghetti code which is code that just works however removing or altering one piece of this code could/will lead to destruction and breaking of something else. For example the first raid of Destiny 2 the Leviathan is right now bugged and sometimes you can't start the first encounter how this bug was achieved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. That and Bungie is doing some stuff to the physics engine along with how missions are created and run so if they kept all the content they would need to make sure that all the content for the past 3 years works with the new alterations to the engine. Any other Dev unless they have the same spagetthi code issue should be yelled at and denied the ability to remove non seasonal content.
@bird3713
@bird3713 4 жыл бұрын
Didn’t World of Warcraft do this with Cataclysm? I actually don’t know for sure- I just remembering hearing that the whole world was upended, so doesn’t that qualify?
@doombloomers9609
@doombloomers9609 4 жыл бұрын
I avoid the issue by not buying into modern gaming.
@UnknownTornado
@UnknownTornado 4 жыл бұрын
You’re missing out man
@mendeleyev1790
@mendeleyev1790 4 жыл бұрын
Aye mate i too sail the migthy seas
@The_Mr._Biscuit
@The_Mr._Biscuit 4 жыл бұрын
But what if bungee needs the money... to put in a giant swimming pool sized vault to Scrooge McDuck dive into...?
@sophiathekitty
@sophiathekitty 4 жыл бұрын
destiny 1 was way worse about taking away content. they took away weekly end game grind content if you weren't up on the latest dlc. i mean.... it was a bummer when they took away different world map content... but that's just the nature of them changing up all that stuff to go with the current dlc... which you'll have access to regardless because it's world map stuff... it's kinda weird that they're taking away base game locations stuff in destiny 2 with this new update.... but they're switching out for new locations... which i suspect will all be available for everybody to go to... even if you can't access the story missions.... they at least let you play the strikes in the playlist so the paying customers can have people to play with them on those strikes. i dunno... i kinda got frustrated with the whole monitization and dlc and changing content stuff from the first one..... so i've only been doing free to play destiny 2.... got the base game and the first two dlc for free.... and i'm not sure i'm really gonna miss mars or the infinite forest.... so i'm more just mildly curious about what's gonna change.... maybe it'll be worth seeing what a new character story missions are gonna be like now that two of the base locations are gone.
@Dream146
@Dream146 4 жыл бұрын
I suppose it depends on what you're talking about, are rotating events removing paid content? it's something that I paid for but can't access whenever I want. Are timed events in game that I miss content that I paid for but don't have now? Basically there's practical limits on how big the game can get so either they make a whole new one and have everyone bitch about how they have to upgrade or they start rotating out older content (that will be accessible in future through the rotating content vault) and people whine about having content hardly anyone plays and has largely bitched about being garbage for years.
@JeepXLC
@JeepXLC 4 жыл бұрын
i have abandoned destiny 2 since september, for the reasons specified in this video. there's a difference between performing maintenance on a game to improve it, and deleting content.
@KratonWolf
@KratonWolf 4 жыл бұрын
Why are people combining and mixing two completely different things? New games aren't dlc, and dlc aren't patches/updates, and strictly speaking removing from a game's base content is literally removing from the contractual agreements investors paid for. Before any game design is done a game design document is needed and completed and agreed upon by investors. Before investors agree to pay you money to invest in game development they get to see at least one if not countless game design documents until they see one they agree with, no different than rewriting contracts until both sides agree to all parts of the contract. You CAN'T remove from version 1.0 after that is paid for without literally breaking contract. If devs want to remove DLC that's fine that's their choice. But DLC is anything above version 1.0. you can't release a game as version 1.0 and get people to pay for a complete game only to take them back to version 0.5 or 0.whatever and not give them their money back.
@ZoanBlade90
@ZoanBlade90 4 жыл бұрын
1:44 I can hear the pain in his voice, as he says this.
@khrashingphantom9632
@khrashingphantom9632 4 жыл бұрын
Here's the breakdown. Devs SHOULD put out games that are complete and ready to play to their full capacity at launch, (Even without an Internet connection) but they won't. This is because they don't HAVE to. No matter what cash grabbing nonsense Devs come up with "Gamers" will continue to buy games, subscribe to gaming streaming services (which is a HORRIBLE IDEA), pay for "DLC", and generally rebuy the same games year after year with "Remaster" slapped on it since ACTUAL backwards compatibility is a thing of the past. Anything "Gamers" complain about or worry about in the state of modern gaming is primarily their own fault, and there's absolutely NO incentive to change it for the better.
@alanheavey6005
@alanheavey6005 4 жыл бұрын
Im starting to believe that animated Yahtzee is my favourite animated character. Ever. Sorry Archer and Babou 😓
@pr0xZen
@pr0xZen 4 жыл бұрын
I don't mind _additive_ changes, as long as they're not microtransactions and lootboxes. _Removing content_ though - not so much. If you insist on doing that, you should do a fork.
@Mobius1AC
@Mobius1AC 4 жыл бұрын
I would say changes that fix or enhance a game can stay. Changes that remove entire sections of content should not be made. If I buy a first person shooter, how many changes would be made before it turns into a Barbie cooking simulator? If I buy a game all features of that game should be kept, if you want to make significant changes, save it for the sequel.
@Mobius1AC
@Mobius1AC 4 жыл бұрын
For example: Skyrim. The free patches and bug-fixes are good changes. But if I buy all the DLC and they just decide to remove Mirak from the game, they are removing an entire feature from something that I specifically paid for.
@Mobius1AC
@Mobius1AC 4 жыл бұрын
or having a game that has no single player content and is entirely online and then deciding a few years down the line that they want to turn off the servers
@salamanda550
@salamanda550 4 жыл бұрын
Very fun that a week on, this comes out the day before the Vaulting happens
@eiffellainez4683
@eiffellainez4683 4 жыл бұрын
Crystal Dynamics is tossing in their grave.
@SweetKiren
@SweetKiren 4 жыл бұрын
Anyone know the name of the song at the beginning and end of the episodes?
@SarahWeisters
@SarahWeisters 4 жыл бұрын
Yahtzee's quote! I have been living by that shit for years! XD
@Zedrackis
@Zedrackis 4 жыл бұрын
I feel like this one completely changed topic right at the start. Was that a play on the topic itself. Advertising one topic, and switching to another?
@Flemmi
@Flemmi 4 жыл бұрын
paradox interactive changes their games all the time, but you can always patch backwards with the steam beta function. so the early game versions arent lost at all. its just lazy developer who dont do that.
@TehBoneKing
@TehBoneKing 4 жыл бұрын
this is just the newest straw ive had with bungle and its fanboys. the back of this camel has already been broken and that was when the fanboys cheered to pay $60 for places theyve already been to and enemies theyve already fought. but anyway bungles "season pass" system is 250% borked, if you could access the content they introduced for free then removed it at the end of the season thats one thing. yet bungle FORCES you to pay to access the new content and then it goes away at the end of the season anyway. why they feel the need to fill their vapid zones with things to do then return them to empty spaces again is beyond me and again beyond me that anyone would continue to pay for. other than that person has already surrendered their wallet over to their faaaantastic bungle overlord regardless if anything of value if given in return
@InvaderJas1
@InvaderJas1 4 жыл бұрын
i say allow change, the big complaint here being shit being removed, well they can add it all back in and listen to their customers. there's more pros than cons with changes being allowed
@joshuaperfect2484
@joshuaperfect2484 4 жыл бұрын
The crunch argument was a deliciously low blow
@WHEREAMIHELP1
@WHEREAMIHELP1 4 жыл бұрын
Both of them sound like they're reading individual words one at a time from a teleprompter and had someone edit those individual words together to form sentences.
@TheCreepypro
@TheCreepypro 4 жыл бұрын
great debate but I feel like either side could have brought up star citizen and it would have helped either of their arguments somehow
@dmc1288
@dmc1288 4 жыл бұрын
But Netflix remove content all the time though so what kind of comparison is that to anything
@AlmightyPolarBear
@AlmightyPolarBear 4 жыл бұрын
That really annoyed me. Though that may be licensing. Like how Harmonix (People whom made Guitar Hero and Rock Band) have songs removed from their online library cause the license expires. Unless they are doing that to Netflix exclusives. Then they are being unfair and selfish.
@khartog01
@khartog01 4 жыл бұрын
Deadlines promote crunch. Crunch is bad.
@cyansuy3062
@cyansuy3062 4 жыл бұрын
Easy, just classify the removed content as bugs. “Oh yeah, those maps/weapons/stories were bugs that were never intended to be packaged with the released content. We removed them so our player can have a more bug-free experience.”
@01oo011
@01oo011 4 жыл бұрын
Hadn’t heard about Destiny doing that till now. It’s even more hilarious remembering that when they split from Activision people we’re celebrating thinking Bungie would go back to the old Halo days. Boy were they wrong. All I’m going to say is bug fixes are fine, “release now, fix later” is terrible and should die along with micro transactions in paid games.
@IAmTheAce5
@IAmTheAce5 4 жыл бұрын
"Take the throne to act, and the throne acts on you" - CGP Grey- I can play this quote game too, b*tch!
@MrMRMONKEY232
@MrMRMONKEY232 4 жыл бұрын
With this specific example everything that's being taken away was made free to play last year. So if anything people should have been refunded last year for buying it before hand. Using arguments from the video. Idont agree with then taking it away or with people getting refunded. The stuff they are removing is frankly lackluster base game stuff that almost killed the game to begin with
@GrantTheHero
@GrantTheHero 4 жыл бұрын
Okay its fine if they come in and fix bugs. Its not fine to remove lore and change the story.
@MechWomanWarrior15
@MechWomanWarrior15 4 жыл бұрын
I bought the Forsaken legendary collection on clearance this year and still haven't played it, so not too happy about this BUT I did buy it on clearance so I'm not out much except the experience, whatever that's worth lol
@gio_el_santo0099
@gio_el_santo0099 4 жыл бұрын
The forsaken experience was lost after the sk expansion
@Nyghtmare6380
@Nyghtmare6380 4 жыл бұрын
When I got Mercenaries 2 for ps3 because I could use the crazy cheat codes and EA decided to remove the access to them
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