Should Fiducia Supplicans be Retracted?

Fr. Gerald Murray and Diane Montagna join Robert Royal to discuss their recent interview in First Things about the highly controversial Declaration from the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith that encourages the blessing of same-sex “couples” and others in “irregular unions.”

[@pmay0922]

When a priest says “God bless you”, it is different than when the rest of us say it, no matter where it takes place, or how “casual” the blessing may be.

[@JGagnon]

There is a priest at my church who ends with the blessing, God bless us etc. It totally creeps me out! He’s supposed to be in the person of Christ so then I wonder who just celebrated Mass. I leave and go to another Mass if I can when I see that he’s celebrating Mass.😢

[@markorton-8175]

​@@JGagnonthere's one at the local Marian shrine who ends his homilies with " Amen?" , Then expecting the congregation to respond in the affirmative. I wish his bishop would wheel him aside for a word. Last time I checked this was Britain, not Alabama.

[@SirBlackReeds]

@@markorton-8175 English joke or American joke, at the end of the day, a joke is still a joke.

[@rebeccaharrah7827]

Father Murray praying for God’s graces to keep you going strong and leading your children to God

[@srelizabethmaryhermit6450]

Prayer begets what it signifies. How can a priest not bless liturgically? This document is poorly received by many in the Holy Catholic Church and by our brothers in Christ and confusing to the faithful. This has the appearance evil.

[@zuzuspetals8323]

Despite the circumstances, it was a delight listening to this sage, needed conversation. May God reward each of you for your fidelity!

[@InventorKnight]

Absolutely. You cannot bless sin.

[@butterflybeatles]

Beautiful Lenten reflection by Diane Montagna.

[@tomthx5804]

Hans Boersma in Touchstone magazine: "December 18, 2023, will go down in history as the date on which the die was cast: the date on which the church renounced the gospel’s right to call us to repentance; the date that, more than any other, signals the church’s implosion in the West. Of course, long before this fateful date on which Pope Francis signaled his approval of the “blessing of same-sex couples,” indications abounded that not all was well in the state of Denmark. The pope’s mercurial behavior, including his tendency to sow confusion with off-the-cuff one-liners on controversial topics, had long been an area of concern to faithful churchgoers. ...Fiducia Supplicans, issued on December 18 and approved by Pope Francis, is absolutely earth-shattering. It is hard to imagine anyone doing more damage more effectively to the Catholic Church and to Christianity as a whole than Pope Francis has done with this declaration. Unless radically critiqued and reversed, its guidelines will signal the demise of Western Christianity. We must reflect upon the pastoral cruelty involved. To someone trying to remain faithful in his struggles with same-sex attractions, the pope’s statement must be like a punch in the gut. How futile his moral struggle has been, his effort to resist sexual temptation day in and day out, when he could instead have found himself a partner and gone off to his priest for a blessing."

[@buergerdoc]

You have absolutely given the rebuttal argument of the seriousness of this moment in the entire history of the Catholic Church. I have been waiting for this specifically intelligent perspective since December 18. This is a crossroads moment for all of us in Holy Mother Church. Thank you for stating it so well. The proponents of this heresy are causing the spiritual deaths of countless Catholics worldwide by way of justification and by the complete loss of their faith in Jesus Christ and in His Bride. This is a modern-day equivalent to Arianism of the first four centuries of Our Church ---- yet even more insidious by its nature of causing massive destruction of Catholic souls worldwide ---- not to even weigh the effect of those who were being evangelized into the faith as this catastrophe has evolved. God help us all in the cyclical nature of this apocalyptic moment in mankind's history. Prayers and the sacraments are our only answers for all peoples of the earth who are being affected by the earth-shattering moment of human history ---- the internal attempt at destroying God's spiritual work on earth. "O, Lord, help these savage beasts who are masquerading as caretakers of our Faith."

[@judyedwards9774]

Love you Fr.Murry.. Preach it..!!!! We all need to hear the truth.. God Bless all of you..

[@st.michaelthearchangelorth1055]

Excellent! Thank you, all!

[@tomthx5804]

"Rescind" would be a better word, but Retract will do.

[@RH-ti2dp]

Anathematize

[@johnwitkowski6596]

Clarity with True Charity spoken here. THANK YOU!

[@ryanscottlogan8459]

Absolutely!Immediately!

[@r.miller4894]

A very sad thing is that the USCCB has not collectively spoken up in unison/collectively against “FS”. Where is their belief system on this matter and their “timidity” in not speaking out collectively as the bishops in Africa have??????

[@mmont]

Silence is complicity.

[@marccrotty8447]

The USCCB is a political and financial lobbying organization. Has nothing to to with saving souls for Christ.

[@tellyhow6281]

The USCCB has to obey or be cancelled.

[@Hiwatt100W1]

Excellent podcast, thank you very much...Ms Montagna, a special thanks for the reference to St Catherine of Genoa- lifetime Catholic here, but I am unaware of that work!

[@francismcglynn4169]

The Church does not bless an irregular union of a man and woman civilly married until they are reconciled to the Church. Why should it do so for other irregular unions?

[@Hope_Boat]

Because the devil is androgynous?

[@RH-ti2dp]

Well... You must have missed Amoris Laetitia. 😢

[@markorton-8175]

​@@Hope_BoatI never knew he was called Ann😂

[@zalobo]

PRAY, PRAY, PRAY FOR THE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST !!!

[@gabeeaglesland1378]

Thank you 🙏 Fr. and Diane for speaking out against FS, we need a return to faithful moral values and traditions, it’s crazy, these documents coming out of Rome.😢😢😢

[@markorton-8175]

The whole papacy is crazy. It was a crazy selection, and that it's lasted 11 years is unbelievable! His formative years were under Juan & Eva Peron.......need I say more.

[@gabeeaglesland1378]

@@markorton-8175 yeah I get that, someone else mentioned Peron before on another outlet about the same issue…

[@SirBlackReeds]

The document itself amounts to "eh, keep doing what you are doing." What's crazy about that?

[@SirBlackReeds]

@@markorton-8175 And you're not just salty that Pope Francis isn't Ratzinger 2.0? You're definitely not just maladapting to more change than a straight line?

[@gabeeaglesland1378]

@@SirBlackReeds huh? Clarify your remark, the document is pure evil …

[@tinopaz644]

Should Fiducia Supplicans be Retracted? Right now

[@TeresaAvila1]

Absolutely retract this shameful thing. And the Bishops to afraid to speak out about it. It's all shameful. God have mercy on us!

[@debbie2027]

Praise GOD for you all ... Thank YOU

[@user-er9ki8ts6e]

Cardinal Fernandez must resign.

[@drakec.9327]

Absolutely!

[@RH-ti2dp]

And live out his life in a pilar in the desert doing penance. Or else go out to sea in a boat with no oars. (St Patrick gave this as penance to a brigand-Viking whose sins were less-murder only of bodies, not souls.) I am only half joking. 🫤

[@honeymoontravelshop1674]

Maybe struck by lightening

[@matthewbroderick6287]

User, why? Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@matthewbroderick6287]

​@RH-ti2dp why? The document is very clear that marriage is for man and woman alone, to be open to both love and life and that no other sexual union outside of this, gay OR straight, can be blessed by God! Yet, those couples in these disordered unions, can be blessed individually, just as the woman caught in adultery was blessed individually by God, but not her sinful unions! Obedience to Peter, is Obedience to Jesus Christ! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!

[@jamesmartello1]

Bless the homosexual, themselves, separate from another person to avoid the appearance of condoning sin.

[@louellaj.holguin2676]

Great show. They are leading people away from the Roman Catholic church

[@gerddonni2017]

Great Show, very clear, charitable and orthodox! Thank you very much!

[@suzannespanier4492]

Look what this issue has brought upon the Church…

[@SirBlackReeds]

There's always the option of revising it to include a generic blessing that essentially states, "yes, God indeed does still love you."

[@CatsHeartbeat]

Not only retracted but consigned into the fires of hell, from whence it came!

[@markorton-8175]

Yep 👌

[@butterflybeatles]

Of course it should be. The whole papacy of Francine should be retracted. But this is all part of the plan. Let's talk about the terrmi(tes who are ruling the house of the Al--mighty.

[@jscout04]

These are mad, unstable times.

[@markorton-8175]

And that's just in my street 😂

[@user-be2jq9ry7y]

Thank you for this needed conversation.

[@Heart_on_Fire1]

Thank you for the great insights and thought-provoking discussions; as a born-again Catholic with a profound conversion experience 16 years ago where, God intervened through our Blessed Mother to save my marriage, having led a promiscuous life with frequent visits to strip clubs and red districts. I believe divorced, remarried couples without an annulment to receive Holy Communion under Amoris Laetitia is a heresy that opens the door to the blessing of the regular couple relationships under Fiducia Supplicans. This controversial document is an attack on marriage and family as prophesized by the venerable Lucia of Fatima, "The final or decisive battle between the Kingdom of God and Satan will be over marriage and family." Pray for the conversion of hearts.

[@Judithleaver]

Thank you all for clarity and TRUTH. 🙏👏😂🙏🙏So good to hear truth in the midst of confusion. God bless you all 🙏

[@mikeryan3701]

Some Evangelicals may be stunned but other are gloating with delight. For these Evangelicals, Fiducia Supplicans proves that the Pope is not infallible or anywhere near it.

[@johnbradbury4000]

He is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, which he is not doing in this document. The last pope to speak ex cathedra is Pope Pius XII. (Assumption of the Virgin Mary.)

[@michelemcdermott75]

I so love listening to you all. 🙏

[@WilberWiley]

I GO TO MASS EVERYDAY AND CONFESSION EVERY MONTH. I PRAY 3 HOURS A DAY, AND SAY 15 DECADES OF THE ROSARY. I GO TO EUCHASTIC ADORATION ONCE OR MORE A WEEK AND I AM STILL AFRAID TO FACE GOD WHEN I DIE.

[@Kjt853]

Shh! Don’t say that too loud. You might be accused of being a rigid backwardist, which in this poor excuse for a papacy, seems to be the only sin still on the books . . . That, and using plastic straws.

[@citycity3660]

Excellent podcast! Thank you very much!!!

[@Judithleaver]

Sadly the heirachy and many other clergy have forgotten their main task of salvation of souls. Our Lord was crucified to save souls ..Pray pray for the clergy 🙏🙏

[@user-zk9nf6ki3k]

Great program Robert Royal I always feel well and good listening to you, Father Murray and now Diana Montangna. I will remain close to Jesus, and his Church and the Sacraments forever 🙏

[@Corolla97ww]

Great input from both interviewees. Diane made a good point concerning Catherine of Genoa's view of our state of mind at the time of our death.

[@markorton-8175]

Yes indeed

[@LarryJung-ng5yj]

✝The Catholic Church still has some fine and outstanding leaders such as cardinals Gerhard Muller, Burke and Sarah. Jesus Christ is the universal king and real too !!.

[@tomthx5804]

Father Murray: 19:28 "The Holy See is teaching Number Two right now" Boy, is it ever!

[@kathysiebers2058]

Yes! Very misleading.

[@mariawells8026]

Excellent pionts stated with Catholic clarity. It's upsetting that what is put out by secular media on this topic leads the general public to think Holy Mother Church goes along with the world. She does not.

[@CORRIDORSJohnPWalsh]

Why is this doc happening now? Discussion talks of its effects and reception and desire for retraction which is vital yet all known motivations, objectives, and causes for it more sparsely. What are the causes or hopes for these specific shepherds to write & issue what they promulgated. As Robert Royal brought up, Mr. Ashenden's "To undermine the gospel" is one attempt to compelling theory. There may be more.

[@billburtis8616]

This debacle FS has allowed many more people than in recent decades to hear that same sex acts are sinful, because more people speaking from knowledge and truth are saying it. That if a person dies with these sexual activities unforgiven, they will go to hell, was implied in this video. That last message is one that should be given much more often as well, particularly by our Bishops and our priests. I fear that too many of our clergy have a same sex attraction for them to do what is right.

[@danmccabe8582]

Another Great Show Robert! God Bless!!!

[@tau7260]

19:30...Fr. Murry said, "...Is reality a given that we have to conform to or is it subject to our manipulation...the Church has always taught number one and I am sorry to say the Holy See is teaching number two right now..." Yeah, agreed, "number two" is exactly what I would call it; and yes, the Holy See has been teaching a lot of it for a while, a long while.

[@crusader333ad]

Should FS be retracted? Not just retracted but condemned, burnt and the ashes scattered over Buenos Aires.

[@NavigatingOurFaith]

Deo Gratias

[@littleflower9425]

YES!

[@michaelpaul9236]

This document should be looked at in the context of Ratzinger's 1986 document, On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. Seems like the seeds of all the bad things warned about there, even in the church, have come to fruition. The inmates have taken over the asylum...

[@mht5875]

Yes, it shoud be retracted.

[@markjoslin9912]

Yes

[@genemyersmyers6710]

That very good !

[@paulyosef7550]

I am so confused. Leviticus 18:22 has been translated in common English versions as: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. And when you’re an abomination you try to obscure that bit of scripture. What would St Catherine of Siena say?

[@jrozi3872]

Well that's easy.. yes 👍🏼 will they? No. Signs of the times!

[@marycorriston5090]

What is the purpose of a blessing? To give grace or to endorse?

[@michellea9857]

“... this document is inacceptable in itself to everyone who still uses his reason, who still has common sense,” Bishop Schneider

[@josevictorec]

I no longer attend the NO and we have a Latin Priest visit Quito about every two months and it is difficult to survive as a Roman Catholic like this. Brogolio should go into silence and pray for forgiveness for the damage he has done to the Church or die in his sin. I cannot pray for him as much as I would not pray for Judas.

[@Kjt853]

The only honest prayer I can muster for the current occupier of Peter’s Chair is that God will open his eyes before He closes them. I can’t even force myself to use the words “pope” and “Francis” consecutively in the same sentence.

[@tomthx5804]

Don't worry. Fernandez has a new document in the works on "human dignity". Apparently it is about how having orgasms brings you into perfect unity with Christ, and that is how you have maximum human dignity. I can't think of a man more suited to our times than Fernandez.

[@mht5875]

Fernandez has clearly never read Galatians chapter 5.

[@piita1971]

Why only FS and the rest of the ambiguous and heteredox material?

[@maryhowsrd3381]

I am praying and ordered Guadalupe rosary

[@interceptus]

Spontaneous...like a double sneeze.

[@josephmurray2234]

I am a simple man but i think so its seems wrong bec as use it can be abused as it has been

[@aseeker2109]

All Bishops, successors of the Apostles, should summone the courage to do their duty to God and the Church and rebuke Francis to his face over Fiducia Supplicans as did St Paul to St Peter, Gal 2: 11-13 over a much less grave matter. It is an abomination that sophistry has replaced true settled teaching contained in the Deposit of Faith. It is an appalling scandal. Fiducia supplicans must be revoked immediately for salvation of souls. For the Church and the salvation of souls ❤🙏🙏🙏❤️

[@chrisbrand5728]

Absolutely be removed!

[@SirBlackReeds]

Why is revising it to include a generic blessing not an option? Why does it have to be A or B?

[@JGagnon]

Sure, right after you put the toothpaste back into the tube!

[@user-eu8ub9cm5t]

March 9 2024 date of this Interview and never heard of Robert Royal until today 29 May after listening to Chris Ferrara video THIS TIME IT IS DIFFERENT made 6 years ago where he mentions Author of The Dictator Pope/ as well as Philip Lawler Lost Shepherd and Robert Royal of EWTN Keep the Faith website has AUDIO Alas not on KZbin called ONE WORLD UTOPIAN DELUSION OF CURRENT PONTIFICATE which should receive much more publicity and be the title of Chris Ferrara next book

[@Bluets023]

Ezek 8: 14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord,s house which was toward the north ; and , behold , there sat women weeping for TAMMUZ . Who was Tammuz ?

[@mht5875]

Tammuz was a Sumerian pagan deity

[@BarbaraSippy-nc8bz]

👍💖🙏

[@marccrotty8447]

The "gay" Francis document is not Catholic. Cancel.

[@frederiquecouture3924]

☕🌞.

[@pathue1196]

Lent is the season of repentance and renewal...and the ones most in need of these are the very priests who have blessed the sin of SS activities and lifestyle. And the ones leading this pack of priests are the Pope and the Cardinal responsible for FS which sins against the 2nd Commandment every time they bless SS unions. We are not stupid like the African bishops have told Francis in rejecting FS.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Pope Francis is quite clear that marriage is for man and woman alone, to be open to both love and life and that no other sexual union outside of this, gay OR straight, can be blessed by God! Yet, those couples in these disordered unions, can be blessed individually, just as the woman caught in adultery was blessed individually by God, yet, not her sinful unions! Obedience to Peter, is Obedience to Jesus! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!

[@suzannespanier4492]

Infallible on faith and morals?

[@petermacander2061]

Where are the American Bishops? Where is the fraternal correction of the Holy See by American bishops, or are too many of them enslaved by the sin of sodomy?

[@maryhowsrd3381]

Medjugore Mary TV Rosary calls for A triumph coming

[@williambranch4283]

Can't per Vatican I

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

Well what to do, what to do? China has already replaced my measly Peters Pence donation $100K to my $1 so there’s nothing I can do!

[@Church888]

Should black history month be retracted?

[@eabm1984]

No FS does not. We should have less youtube personalities and these few cardinals, promoting error. That would be much more beneficial.

[@WilberWiley]

IF HOMOSEXUAL UNIONS ARE NOT A SIN, WHAT IS? WHAT A JOKE!

[@Jessy44833]

Thera is a plenty OPNIONS, but a very rare a bishop who is ready to start a BIG PRAYER MOVEMENT - Praying for homosexual. Do you think your talking is stronger than the POWER OG GOD when we start to pray?

[@WilberWiley]

YOU NEVER KNOW MAYBE FERNANDEZ WILL BE THE POPE, THEN WHAT?

[@PantheraOnca60]

No.

[@WilberWiley]

THING THAT ANGERS ME IS THAT THIS FRANCIS TAKES HIS VIEW ON WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOULD BE, THEN TRYS TO FORCE EVERYONE TO DO WHAT HE WANTS.

[@pancracedewinter7581]

Nothing is going to happen. Francis will not rebuke his own document.

[@WilberWiley]

This ss blessing more evil than it looks at first blush. A sin against the Holy Spirit as proclaimed by Jesus the Christ is unforgivable. What constitutes a sin againts the Holy Spirit? Thinking that a person or persons has a right to sin. In this case, homosexuality. So if the pope allows same sex blessings he is asking Jesus to look favorable on a sin that cannot be forgiven. Not the sex act but the refusal to admit it is a mortal sin, and the refusal to repent of the sin. So the pope has tied himself up in the sin of the Holy Spirit by ignoring the statement of Jesus. That is not preaching the revelation of Jesus and grounds for excommunication according to cannon law.

[@rondavis60]

Pope Francis has seen the dichotomy that exists in any couplings of people based upon mutual reliance, a reliance built upon need for complementarity in place of solitude. The other side of the dichotomy might well be intimate Congress, but not necessarily so. Elderly heterosexual couples, and even less elderly couples, often have no interest in sexual intimacy, but desperately love and need their partners. Call these “irregular” if you must, but, without full understanding of the individual arrangements involved, it is un-Christian at the very least, to assume that the couples seeking the Church’s blessing upon their union are involved in “sin” as well as in an expression of love inside a mutual identity. Francis recognises this, hence actual “marriage” as a Sacrament is not what he is proposing, but a blessing upon commitment to a mutual dependence that strengthens both partners and guards against the downsides of solitariness. Sinful behaviour, should it exist, is a matter for the consciences of the individual parties, not for us to assume or judge. Francis is rare, as a Pope. Francis is one of the few Popes of unconditional love. God mightily bless him.🙏

[@JimCvit]

No, it shouldn't... But it should be updated with what the African bishops mentioned and that is a conversion back to God through Christ and penance.

[@michaelosforza5365]

Fiducia supplicans is a sign that Catholic church is not a true Church, it is not a Church of Christ.

[@geoffjs]

The Church has had bad popes in the past & recovered stronger as will be the case with Pope Francis when he is gone.

[@crazyedswonderfulworldofso9370]

People, have you even read Fiducia Supplicans? Here are some excerpts that seem to confirm this is much ado about nothing: 5. This is also the understanding of marriage that is offered by the Gospel. For this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion. Such is also the meaning of the Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which states that the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex. 39. In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding.The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple.

[@anng.4542]

Already James Martin is carrying out the very thing you pretend isn't happening. Jorge Bergoglio is in office to protect the faith, not to encourage the camels to push their noses under the tent.

[@lenoragrimaud182]

I don't understand! Throughout the Scriptures, especially the psalms, God pours out his blessings on the good and the evil, alike. The sower of the seed throws out seed upon rocky soil, among thorns, and on the edge of the path, as well as on fertile soil. If God is so generous with his blessings and grace as to include everyone, why can't priests, or anyone else? Did not Jesus say, "bless your enemies; love your enemies; and pray for your enemies?" Pentecost was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon everyone; upon all the earth. How we respond to the blessings and grace of God is our personal responsibility. Sin begets sin and love begets love. Yet many people in irregular or same-sex relationships are exceptionally moral in every other respect, as well as all the works of Mercy. I know of many same-sex relationships and irregular unions where one partner is dying and the other becomes their caretaker. Their compassion and faithfulness, and sacrificial love is extraordinary. There is more to every relationship than sex or the lack of sex. Certainly, there must be a difference between Sacraments and blessings, or actual grace!

[@mn17771]

Blessing sinful PEOPLE was and is always allowed. We are all sinners. It is the blessing of sin itself, in any form, that is disallowed. God will not confirm us in our sin.

[@marycorriston5090]

The document is not confusing to anyone except those who want to confuse and take Pope Francis down.

[@crazyedswonderfulworldofso9370]

Unfortunately, Fr. Murray mentions the "natural law" which is the foundation for which the Church has always maintained it cannot approve of same-sex monogamous unions. But our understanding of the "natural law" has been proven wrong. And since science and reason cannot be at odds with faith, it would only be prudent for the Church to revise Her stance on homosexual unions. I am not referring to one-night hookups which are forbidden in the same way they are for heterosexuals but rather, couples living in loving monogamous same-sex relationships that reflect the love God has for all His subjects. Presently, “gay marriage” as defined by the Catholic Church is not possible. There does, however, remain a growing effort for the Church to recognize the love, partners in monogamous gay unions, have for each other. While this type of marriage sacramentally is not possible, allow me to explain what might be. There is a social/sexual revolution coming in the Church. In one aspect of this coming revolution, the Church wants to expound on Pope John Paul’s central idea in “Theology of the Body” and how it centers on the fact that God wants a deep intimate loving relationship with each of us in the same way a committed monogamous heterosexual couple enjoys. It is not meant to reflect this in the physical sense but is mirrored in that way, to reflect the deep love God has for each of us, and the Church attempts to bring to light, to celebrate the joy and exultation that comes from such a love. The Catholic Church’s stance on homosexuality has long been that it is not inherently sinful, as a person does not choose to be either homosexual or heterosexual. However, the Church has always taught that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered” and “contrary to natural law”. According to the Catholic theology on sexuality, all sexual acts must be open to procreation by nature and express the symbolism of male-female complementarity. The Catholic Church’s stance on homosexuality has been founded on the belief in a natural order created by God, as it has been based on the idea that sexual acts should only be permitted through the Sacrament of Marriage based on the natural law of procreation, of male-female complementarity.“Male and female he created them.” (Gen. 1:27) Recent scientific developments, however, may influence how the Church addresses this issue in the future. Some feel God may be working in His Church to rectify a wrong that has existed for centuries. The principle of doctrinal development in Catholicism allows for the Church's understanding of its teachings to evolve and develop over time while still preserving the core truths of the faith. Some examples of this are Original Sin, the Trinity and the doctrine of Purgatory, the Eucharist, the Canon of Scripture, religious liberty, social justice, and the role of women in the Church and society, to name a few. Should the beliefs of the Church in the area of homosexuality and same-sex unions not evolve when presented with modern scientific evidence that proves otherwise? The Catechism says, the Church and Her theology, cannot be at odds with science (CCC 159). The Church teaches that faith and reason must always be in agreement or, one or both, are in error (CCC 36, 286). Medical experts have stated they can find no studies to show that homosexuality is an abnormality in the human person. Experts now widely agree (American Psychological Association (APA), World Health Organization (WHO), American Medical Association (AMA), World Medical Association (WMA), National Academy of Sciences (NAS), National Library of Medicine, and many other numerous research studies) that homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality rather than a conscious choice made by individuals or an unnatural disorder the homosexual was born with. Scientific studies NOW conclude that homosexuality will make up 3% of the population, no matter what, and that homosexuality IS part of the natural order. So, it seems our knowledge of this matter has changed. Should not our theology develop and evolve in light of these new findings? After all, aren’t homosexuals made in the image and likeness of God, as we all are? If we are not to dispute the scientific and medical consensus, the question then becomes, are homosexuals not allowed to carry out God’s plan of love and commitment in the best way possible, in loving monogamous same-sex unions? Are they not allowed to participate in true love and commitment that mirrors Christ’s love for us on the cross in the same way heterosexual couples who have impediments to marriage, are given dispensations by the Church, even though they cannot fulfil all marriage requirements? It is through no fault of their own, that gays are who they are. God made them as surely as he made you and me, and we all know, God doesn’t make junk.

[@geoffjs]

You query natural law by deceptively using “ “ as though it is a made up concept when the general understanding is that the master principle of natural law, wrote Aquinas, was that "good is to be done and pursued and evil avoided." Aquinas stated that reason reveals particular natural laws that are good for humans such as self-preservation, marriage and family, and the desire to know God. I sense relativism in your thinking which is a trap if you think that the Truth can change, Your appeal to developments in science & in the medical profession are red herrings, because if those opinions have changed over time, then they can change again. Pope Francis has done a smoke & mirrors trick & you’ve fallen for it! God clearly tells us in scripture not to commit homosexual acts, not to have sex with someone of the same sex. It’s crystal clear in the Old Testament and the New Testament. So to engage in those acts is contrary to the plan of God, it’s contrary to what God has designed the human being with for our flourishing. And it is something that whoever engages in those acts is called to repent of. However, if you have attractions, if you have attractions, you can pray that the Lord would bring all of your sexual inclinations into good order, but there’s nothing sinful about having a certain attraction rise up in you. Listen to Gavin Ashenden kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoDCfKqFZbycj6s

[@crazyedswonderfulworldofso9370]

@@geoffjs While Thomas Aquinas is widely regarded as one of the most influential theologians and philosophers in history, there are a few areas where his ideas have been subject to controversy or criticism, to say the least. Aquinas, like many theologians of his time, held views on the treatment of heretics that are considered controversial today. He defended the use of force, including imprisonment and even execution, against heretics as a means to protect the unity and purity of the Catholic Church. Such positions are now seen as incompatible with modern notions of religious tolerance, freedom of conscience, and human rights. Aquinas, like many theologians of his time, held a view that salvation could only be attained through Christian faith. This led to the question of how non-Christians should be regarded. Aquinas argued that non-Christians could be virtuous and morally upright, but they would still be excluded from salvation. This exclusivist view has been subject to criticism, particularly in the context of religious pluralism and interfaith dialogue. The Church has altered Her teaching in this area. Aquinas's views on gender and sexuality, influenced by the prevailing attitudes of his time, have been a subject of controversy. He held that women were subordinate to men, both physically and intellectually. He also considered sexual desire to be inherently sinful unless directed towards procreation within marriage. These views are seen as reflecting a patriarchal and restrictive understanding of gender and sexuality. Aquinas' understanding of the natural order was influenced by the cultural and scientific context of his time. It is important to recognize that Aquinas lived in the 13th century when scientific knowledge was limited compared to what we have today. His understanding of the natural order was shaped by the prevailing beliefs and limited scientific knowledge available at that time. In light of our current scientific and medical understanding, we now know that homosexuality is a natural variation in human sexuality and occurs in approximately 3% of the population. This understanding challenges the notion that heterosexuality is the only normative expression of human sexuality. From a Catholic perspective, it is important to recognize that Aquinas' teachings are not considered infallible or immutable. The Catholic Church acknowledges that scientific advancements and cultural developments can influence our understanding of the natural order and the human person. The Church has a long history of engaging with scientific discoveries and updating its teachings accordingly. For instance, the Church's position on the heliocentric model of the solar system has evolved. While Aquinas and the Church initially adhered to the geocentric model, the understanding of the physical universe has since developed, and the heliocentric model has been accepted by the scientific community. The Church has recognized this scientific understanding and no longer holds the geocentric view as a matter of doctrine. The Church no longer brands those who believe the Earth revolves around the Sun as heretics nor does she confine them to house arrest for the remainder of their life as She did with Galileo. Similarly, as our understanding of human sexuality has advanced, the Church has engaged in ongoing dialogue and reflection. The Catechism of the Catholic Church acknowledges the importance of respecting and accepting individuals with same-sex attractions while affirming the teaching that sexual acts are reserved for marriage between a man and a woman. The Church recognizes the inherent dignity of every person, regardless of their sexual orientation. While Aquinas' understanding of the natural order was influenced by the scientific and cultural context of his time, the Catholic Church is not bound by his specific views on every subject. The Church acknowledges the evolving nature of scientific knowledge and engages in ongoing dialogue to reconcile scientific advancements with its teachings. The recognition of homosexuality as a natural variation in human sexuality does not contradict the Catholic belief in the natural order. Rather, it calls for a compassionate and respectful approach that upholds the dignity of every person. You said, “Your appeal to developments in science & in the medical profession are red herrings, because if those opinions have changed over time, then they can change again.” Scientific findings are not mere “opinions” that can change with current trends but are based on empirical evidence and rigorous methodology. Scientific knowledge is built upon a foundation of observation, experimentation, and peer review, which allows for the discovery of objective facts about the natural world. While the Catholic Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are considered to be rooted in divine revelation and enduring truths, She has at times adjusted Her position on beliefs and certain scientific matters based on new evidence and insights. Here are a few examples: As mentioned earlier, In the 17th century, Galileo's support for the heliocentric model of the solar system challenged the prevailing geocentric view endorsed by the Church. Galileo was initially condemned by the Church, but with the advancement of scientific evidence, the Church eventually revised its position, but it took close to four hundred years. In 1992, Pope John Paul II officially acknowledged that errors were made in Galileo's case and expressed regret for the way it was handled. The Church's understanding of the theory of evolution has evolved. In the 19th century, when Charles Darwin's theory of evolution gained prominence, the Church initially expressed reservations and maintained a more skeptical stance. However, since then, the Church has come to recognize the compatibility of evolution with the belief in a divine creator. Pope Francis, for example, has stated that evolution is consistent with the idea of God as a creator. These examples demonstrate instances where the Church has adjusted its position or acknowledged past errors in light of scientific evidence or changing circumstances. While the core doctrines and moral principles of the Church are considered unchangeable, its engagement with science reflects a recognition of the ongoing development of human knowledge and the need for dialogue between faith and reason for as the Church maintains, they cannot be at odds with each other. (CCC 36,159, 286) You said, “God clearly tells us in scripture not to commit homosexual acts, not to have sex with someone of the same sex.” When Jesus spoke about cutting off one's hand or plucking out one's eye if it causes sin, he was using hyperbolic language to emphasize the seriousness of avoiding sin. The intention was not to promote self-mutilation but to emphasize the need for radical action in dealing with sinful behaviour. It is important to interpret such passages in light of the overall teachings and principles of Scripture. When examining Jesus' teachings and actions, it is important to consider the historical and cultural context in which he lived. Jesus often spoke in parables and addressed the spiritual and moral dimensions of people's lives. While Jesus did not explicitly condemn specific social institutions like slavery or challenge the legal limitations placed on women in his time, his teachings emphasized principles such as love, justice, and the inherent worth of every individual. It is through the lens of these principles that subsequent generations have sought to address and rectify societal injustices. As societies evolve, we are called to engage in ongoing dialogue, study, and reflection, drawing from Jesus' overarching message of love and justice, to promote equality, dignity, and the well-being of all individuals. The interpretation of Scripture requires careful study, consideration of historical and cultural contexts, the understanding and inclusion of new scientific discovery and seeking guidance from reputable sources such as theologians, pastors, or biblical scholars to gain a more comprehensive understanding.

[@geoffjs]

⁠​⁠@@crazyedswonderfulworldofso9370thank you for your interesting response with which, I agree on some topics such as the evolution of thought and science about Galileo, evolution etc. However, the Truth can never change, so as adultery & murder are always wrong, so too is homosexuality and no amount of relativising can change the moral law of God You say that the scientific & medical community now agree that homosexuality occurs naturally in 3% of the population. As I’m unaware of any related objective information, would you pls point me in the direction of such sources. The medical profession has been in error before eg encouraging smoking in the 50’s, supportive of abortion with no extenuating circumstances and currently, euthanasia & transgenderism, so I wouldn’t believe everything that they say! I’m naturally sceptical of “so called” experts who change their stance from time to time, eg COVID vax, prior to the Hubble telescope in the 90’s & before the “Big Bang” was contemplated, it was the generally held view that the universe was imploding & now with the Webb telescope they are reviewing some of the earlier claims. This begs the question, if God prohibits homosexual activity, why would He create people with that disposition. He created male & female, so if the condition is a variation of nature, those affected people will have to learn to live a life of chastity in obedience to God. Paul comfortingly reminds us, “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it” (1 Cor. 10:13). My bigger question relates to Pope Francisco & his strategy of incrementalism which has been to effect irreversible change in the church. You don’t immediately recognise SSM like the Anglican Church did, but do so in steps, FS, SS unions & then marriage, likewise with female priests ie deacons, then priests. Francis is determined to bring about the demise of the existing church and to replace it with a secular church. We are a people of Hope because Jesus said in Mt 16:19, that the gates of hell would not prevail so the Church is currently going through her own passion from she will be Gloriously resurrected.

[@crazyedswonderfulworldofso9370]

PART 1 OF 2 - It would appear my reply is too lengthy for me to post as per KZbin guidelines. Therefore, I will submit it in two parts. You said, “the Truth can never change, so as adultery & murder are always wrong, so too is homosexuality and no amount of relativising can change the moral law of God”. When it comes to the concept of truth, it's important to distinguish between objective truth and our understanding or perception of truth. Objective truth refers to a reality that exists independently of our beliefs or perceptions, while our understanding of truth can be influenced by various factors, including pre-conceived notions or false assumptions. Here are a few examples to illustrate how our understanding of truth can change when based on erroneous or outdated beliefs: I mentioned this example earlier. For centuries, it was widely believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, a concept known as geocentrism. This belief was based on preconceived notions and limited observations. However, with advancements in science and the evidence supporting heliocentrism (the idea that the Earth revolves around the Sun), our understanding of the truth about our place in the universe changed. In the past, it was commonly believed that living organisms could arise spontaneously from non-living matter. This concept was based on observations that seemed to support the idea. However, through experiments and scientific investigations, it was eventually discovered that life only arises from pre-existing life, a principle known as biogenesis. This understanding of the truth about the origin of life changed based on new evidence and scientific advancements. In the 18th century, the phlogiston theory was widely accepted in the field of chemistry. It proposed that a substance called phlogiston was released during combustion. However, as more experiments were conducted and new evidence emerged, the oxygen theory of combustion was formulated, which provided a more accurate explanation. The truth about the nature of combustion changed based on scientific progress and the rejection of false assumptions. It is no different when it comes to our understanding of homosexuality. The understanding and acceptance of homosexuality have indeed evolved over time, and society's view on homosexuality has shifted significantly in recent decades. Historically, homosexuality was often stigmatized, considered immoral, or even classified as a mental disorder. However, advancements in scientific research, psychological studies, and a deeper understanding of human sexuality have contributed to a more nuanced and inclusive perspective. Recent studies have provided evidence that sexual orientation, including homosexuality, is a natural and deeply ingrained aspect of human diversity. Research in fields such as genetics, neuroscience, and psychology suggests that sexual orientation is likely influenced by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental factors. These studies have contributed to a greater understanding that homosexuality is not a choice or a pathology but rather a natural variation of human sexuality. You asked for some examples that might help to prove this claim. Medical experts have stated they can find no studies to show that homosexuality is an abnormality in the human person. Experts now widely agree (American Psychological Association (APA), World Health Organization (WHO), American Medical Association (AMA), World Medical Association (WMA), National Academy of Sciences (NAS), National Library of Medicine, and many other numerous research studies) that homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality rather than a conscious choice made by individuals or an unnatural disorder the homosexual was born with. Additionally, I can provide you with links to articles that help to support my claim. Here are some: Homosexuality - Wikipedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality WMA Statement on Natural Variations of Human Sexuality - www.wma.net/policies-post/wma-statement-on-natural-variations-of-human-sexuality/ Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality - American Psychological Association - www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation#:~:text=Homosexuality%20per%20se%20is%20not%20a%20mental%20disorder,of%20lesbian%2C%20gay%2C%20and%20bisexual%20individuals%20%28APA%2C%202005%29. American Psychological Association (APA) - www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq American Medical Association (AMA) - The American Medical Association (AMA) is the largest association of physicians and medical students in the United States. The AMA has issued several statements and policies on homosexuality and human sexuality, such as: AMA Policy Regarding Sexual Orientation, which affirms that “homosexuality is not a disease and that the AMA opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation.” AMA Policy on Health Care Needs of the Homosexual Population, which states that “the AMA supports the rights of homosexual men and women to be accorded the same basic human, civil and legal rights as heterosexual men and women” and that “the AMA supports the right of homosexual men and women to have access to health care services without discrimination.” AMA Policy on Health Care Disparities in Same-Sex Partner Households, which recognizes that “same-sex partner households face barriers to health care access and coverage” and that “the AMA supports measures providing same-sex households with the same rights and privileges to health care as afforded opposite-sex households.” AMA Policy on Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and Gender Expression Non-Discrimination, which opposes “any discrimination based on an individual’s sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, race, religion, disability, ethnic origin, national origin or age” and supports “legislation and regulations to ensure that all people have equal access to health care services without discrimination.” AMA Policy on Sexual Orientation Change Efforts, which states that “the AMA opposes, the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation” and supports “the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, and harm caused by efforts to change sexual orientation.” In summary, the AMA acknowledges that homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality and does not require any medical intervention or treatment. The AMA also advocates for the equal rights and health care access of homosexual individuals and opposes any form of discrimination or harm based on sexual orientation. National Academy of Sciences (NAS) - According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality that has no intrinsic harmful health effects. The NAS has published several reports and statements on this topic, such as: Measuring Sex, Gender Identity, and Sexual Orientation for the National Institutes of Health, a study that reviews current measures and methodological issues related to these concepts in surveys, research studies, and administrative and clinical settings. No ‘gay gene’: Massive study homes in on genetic basis of human sexuality, a news article that summarizes the findings of the largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality, which was co-sponsored by the NAS. WMA Statement on Natural Variations of Human Sexuality, a policy document that affirms the scientific evidence that homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality and calls for the respect and protection of the human rights of sexual and gender minorities. Genetic patterns offer clues to evolution of homosexuality, a news article that reports on a study that identified genetic patterns associated with homosexual behaviour and how they might also help people to find different-sex mates and reproduce. The study was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the official journal of the NAS. World Health Organization (WHO) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation - “In 2012, the Pan American Health Organization (the North and South American branch of the World Health Organization) released a statement cautioning against services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientations as they lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, and noted that the global scientific and professional consensus is that homosexuality is a normal and natural variation of human sexuality and cannot be regarded as a pathological condition. The Pan American Health Organization further called on governments, academic institutions, professional associations and the media to expose these practices and to promote respect for diversity.” World Medical Association (WMA) - www.wma.net/policies-post/wma-statement-on-natural-variations-of-human-sexuality/ National Library of Medicine - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771012/ and pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33788667/

[@crazyedswonderfulworldofso9370]

@@geoffjs PART 2 OF 2 - It would appear my reply is too lengthy for me to post as per KZbin guidelines. Therefore, I will submit it in two parts. You can also find more articles by using a search_web tool with the query “homosexuality natural variation human sexuality”. I found over sixty studies that argued homosexuality is part of the natural order. I hope you find these links useful and informative. From a Catholic perspective, there are varying views on homosexuality. The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual individuals should be treated with respect, dignity, and compassion. However, it also maintains that homosexual acts are contrary to the moral law and that marriage is between a man and a woman. It's worth noting that within the Catholic community, there are diverse opinions and ongoing discussions on how to approach and interpret these teachings. Our understanding of homosexuality has advanced significantly based on scientific research and a more inclusive societal perspective. Recent studies suggest that homosexuality is a natural aspect of human diversity, and major medical and psychological organizations recognize the importance of acceptance and support for individuals with diverse sexual orientations. While opinions and interpretations may vary, these developments have contributed to a broader understanding of homosexuality as part of the natural order of human sexuality. Perhaps it is time for the Catholic Church to catch up? So while truth is absolute, our perception of that same truth can be distorted. As new scientific discoveries come along, the principle of doctrinal development in Catholicism allows for the Church's understanding of its teachings to evolve and develop over time while still preserving the core truths of the faith. Some examples of this are Original Sin, the Trinity and the doctrine of Purgatory, the Eucharist, Canon of Scripture, religious liberty, social justice, and the role of women in the Church and society, but to name a few. Should the beliefs of the Church in the area of homosexuality and same-sex unions not evolve when presented with modern scientific evidence that proves otherwise or, should She remain with Her head in the sand in the interest of maintaining the status quo and “preserving the gospel”? The Catechism says, the Church and Her theology, cannot be at odds with science (CCC 159). The Church teaches that faith and reason must always be in agreement or, one or both, are in error (CCC 36, 286). Scientific studies NOW conclude that homosexuality will make up 3% of the population, no matter what, and that homosexuality IS part of the natural order. So, it seems our knowledge of this matter has changed. Should not our theology develop and evolve in light of these new findings? After all, aren’t homosexuals made in the image and likeness of God, as we all are? If we are not to dispute the scientific and medical consensus, the question then becomes, are homosexuals not allowed to carry out God’s plan of love and commitment in the best way possible, in loving monogamous same-sex unions? Are they not allowed to participate in true love and commitment that mirrors Christ’s love for us on the cross in the same way heterosexual couples who have impediments to marriage, are given dispensations by the Church, even though they cannot fulfil all marriage requirements? It is through no fault of their own, that gays are who they are. God made them as surely as he made you and me, and we all know, God doesn’t make junk. You asked the question: “This begs the question, if God prohibits homosexual activity, why would He create people with that disposition?” The question of why God would create people with a same-sex attraction while prohibiting homosexual activity is a complex theological and philosophical inquiry. It delves into the mystery of God's intentions and the inherent limitations of human understanding. While I cannot provide a definitive answer, I can offer some perspectives to consider. It's important to acknowledge that human beings are not privy to the full understanding of God's plans and intentions. Our knowledge and perspective are limited, and there are aspects of God's design and purpose that may surpass our comprehension. Secondly, the existence of certain dispositions or conditions does not necessarily imply that God directly wills or intends them. In theological thought, the presence of what may be perceived as imperfections or challenges in creation is often attributed to the concept of original sin and the fallen state of humanity. This fallen state introduces disorder and brokenness into the world, affecting various aspects of creation, including human nature. Additionally, suffering and seemingly discordant elements in the natural world, such as suffering in animals or the presence of diseases, are part of the broader theological concept of the problem of evil. This is a profound issue that theologians and philosophers have grappled with throughout history. Theologians often suggest that these instances of suffering are the result of the fallen state of creation and not directly willed by God. Ultimately, the question of why God allows certain dispositions or conditions while prohibiting specific actions is a theological mystery. It invites humility, trust, and a recognition of our limited understanding. The complexities of God's divine plan and the interaction between human freedom and divine will are profound topics that may not have simple answers. In the face of such questions, many religious traditions invite individuals to seek a deeper relationship with God, to grapple with these mysteries, and to find solace in faith, prayer, and contemplation. It's essential to approach these inquiries with an open mind, a willingness to explore diverse perspectives, and a recognition of the inherent limitations of human understanding. You said, “My bigger question relates to Pope Francisco & his strategy of incrementalism which has been to effect irreversible change in the church. You don’t immediately recognise SSM like the Anglican Church did, but do so in steps, FS, SS unions & then marriage, likewise with female priests ie deacons, then priests. Francis is determined to bring about the demise of the existing church and to replace it with a secular church.” Some feel God may be working in His Church to rectify some wrongs that have survived for centuries. Could these coming changes in the Church and yes, changes are coming, possibly be the work of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised? Could Pope Francis be His messenger in all of this? Will a split in the Church occur over this? Possibly. Probably. When the schism comes, will you leave the Church and call Jesus a liar or mistaken? He promised us that He, and His Holy Spirit, would be with us to the end of time (John 14:15-17) and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18). He gave us a Church to guide us in times exactly like these. He placed Pope Francis in the position he has, “to bind and loose” (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18). He told us all, “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16). What will you do when the Church authorizes blessings of same-sex monogamous relationships, ordained women (diaconate), married priests, etc.? Many will certainly be appalled at the “scandal”. And the reason will be they have not taken the time to carefully read and understand the basis for the Church’s enlightened stance on these issues. Many Catholics are assuming things have changed in the Church, when in fact, all that has happened is that Pope Francis has said, mercy must trump hard sayings or laws where circumstances mitigate degrees of sin, something already found in our Catechism. So, where will you go, when all these changes take place? The Church is protected by the Pope, the Vicar of Christ on Earth. He has the keys. Christ gave them to him (Matthew 16:18). Could it just be that Pope Francis has been put into this place and time to refresh the Church, to usher in a new Springtime? Unfortunately for many, Pope Francis isn’t going anywhere, and these changes will come. Oh, not to fret though, doctrine and dogma won’t change, but the way we look at them will. Dogmas have a way of developing and fleshing out over time. Pope Benedict predicted this split would come. It now seems inevitable because everyone has already dug deep into their trenches and are preparing for the war that will surely come. But Benedict said, that after the schism has occurred, while the Church would be far smaller, it would be strengthened and fortified in its faith. So, where will you go?

[@butterflybeatles]

It would be nice if Mr. Royal could wear a tie. He mustn't think that he is, just, in his (beautiful) home. The world is his audience. Or, maybe, wear sports clothes. Wearing a suit jacket without a tie is incomplete.

[@SparohsPerch]

🙄

[@butterflybeatles]

Yah, I know. The tie is no longer in style. We must accept it. @@SparohsPerch

[@tomthx5804]

You need a hobby.

[@butterflybeatles]

I have one. It's judging how people dress. @@tomthx5804

[@butterflybeatles]

Hey, how would you like it if the priest removed his Roman collar in public?@@tomthx5804

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

😂😂😂 The catholic church is a democracy now. 😂😂😂

[@cjones3710]

Yes along with the fake synod with outcomes predetermined. Worldly sinful.