Should The Smash Box Be Allowed For Speedrunning?

[@ApolloLegend]

Sorry for not posting the last few days

[@anotheryoutubekid3080]

Apollo Legend it wasn’t a very long time is ok ;)

[@yaphettbanks4936]

Apollo Legend I thought Billy Mitchell sent his goons after you

[@kyleturner7309]

Apollo Legend “Last few days.” HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...

[@TKUltra971]

"Few Days" WE HAVE QUESTIONS APOLLO!

[@arcaithe8030]

Children have been conceived and born in those few days😂

[@myfellowsonicfans7131]

For a second I was like “who the hell would want their analog stick to be buttons!” Then I realised that’s what a keyboard does lmao.

[@Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1024]

-and also the rest of the keys on the- -controller-do the same thing lol-

[@shady8045]

tbf playing smash on a keyboard would be an actual nightmare

[@ses694]

Why use this controller rather than a good keyboard?

[@Trialer]

ses maybe because it’s specially made? idk

[@EZScape]

Had to blink twice. Welcome back fam.

[@DarthReggie]

Same

[@c3_pulsar]

I thought this was a vid of you at first :D. Really glad he's back.

[@RaymondTracer]

I went to the eye doctor to get my eyes checked, he said Apollo Legend did post a video and there was nothing wrong with my eyes.

[@voidofmind]

Well yeah all of his close friends did because it seems like he didn't tell anybody he was coming back. He really is just a kid.

[@devincranshaw9746]

I thought it was you until he apologized lol

[@SimpleFlips]

When I started the video I thought - why would this ever be banned? I don't know of instances where (aside from turbo functions) controllers had ever been moderated. But when you demonstrated the OoT stuff - that's very hard to say. Even ZFG will drop a HESS a handful of times a run. I think it should be allowed for speedrunning but with different rulings on different games. Seems fine for SM64 but a large advantage for OoT.

[@DistantTide]

I can definitely understand oot but wouldn't sm64 apply as well in some scenarios? For instance I'm sure that it would be possible to make a list of sequential button presses to do in order to preform scripted/tas like strategies ie cannonless without the ledge grab setup. I'm not a sm64 runner so I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty experienced in scripting stuff so I see potential to abuse.

[@bailey7657]

In mkw competitive, controller mods are banned, but there's no reasonable way to enforce this

[@ClassicBentobox]

Oh neat, dad watches ZFG too

[@1gianel]

but what about legendary OoT 100% and sm64 speedrunner clint stevens?

[@GhostRecon141]

the only advantage i could see this controller netting for SM64 is allowing speedkicks RTA

[@tomatoanus]

this answers every question i had about apollos past year

[@KCzz15]

I won't be able to make the livestream tomorrow, any kind soul willing to give me a tl;dr of what happened when the stream has finished?

[@KCzz15]

@J K It's probably too much to say in a video, and it's the sort of thing that would need to be its own video anyway and not attached to an unrelated video.

[@ItsJabo]

What about your year?

[@ziccle]

Couldn't believe it when I saw this in my recommended videos. Glad to see you're back

[@domainadmin9905]

RanialsAwesome I'd be VERY surprised if this was a sneaky advert. That kind of thing could destroy his entire career and it's also illegal to be paid to promote a product without first stating you were paid to do so.

[@videogamerNattie98]

@RaniaIsAwesome This is Apollo your talking about here he is clearly a very skilled speed runner who talks about the controversies in his community and is an honest upfront person I would go so far to say he is the most analytical in this community. Hes simply talking about the controversy around the smash box and giving his analytic opinion about it. On top of providing a few valid reasons for why he is using it. The smash box is controversial because its precision based options despite it cant do anything outside of a regular controller in fact the IQue was allowed and you were forced to use the controller that it came with as the controller itself was plug and play. This controller sparked a controversial point but it was later ruled to be allowed as its simply another version of the same game and the games other versions in it of themselves are allowed and the controller like the smash box did nothing a regular controller couldn't do. Same here in my opinion its on legit software and the smash box is a controller that cant do anything outside of a regular controller so I foresee no problems. And whilst I don't condone insult I will say this, your coming off as rather elitist as for refusing to accept change or opinion other then your own and also not understanding that personal preference is something many like having. 3rd Party controllers are easier to obtain then 1st party and can be more comfortable over regular if it did something outside of the capabilities of the regular then and only then should it be considered a modification. But if it can not then it is simply another choice on how to play and choice gives comfort and playing in your comfort zone will improve performance since your not putting stress on yourself. And Apollo in this video is demonstrating that very point.

[@videogamerNattie98]

@RaniaIsAwesome It was a big player in Oot Any% but due to improvements in strats the WiiVC became the more optimal system in the end. But there was a time where IQue was considered to be the most optimal system. Controversy kicked in when Cosmo used it over other platforms but it was ruled the IQue could be allowed because its simply another version of the game.

[@videogamerNattie98]

@RaniaIsAwesome That's why it sparked a lot of controversy. Is the scarcity of the system on top of the fact that also meant it was quite expensive to get your hands on. A lot of people were happy that new strats made the WiiVC optimal over it because of that very reason.

[@yaphettbanks4936]

I thought Billy Mitchell sent his goons after you

[@walarocks1881]

Same

[@squidsbizarreadventure]

I thought Billy assassinated him

[@evillord476]

Billy's goon Ryan White "White isn't there for show" Goose failed in felling him

[@videogamepolak0]

@@squidsbizarreadventure i thought he got the killscreen on apollo and like touch him in the pants for the loss

[@pizzaiolom]

They did. Hes uploading this from his grave

[@anymoose]

"Apollo Legend? Wasn't that guy dead or something?" Good to see you're alive and not being forced to live as a serf in China to pay off Bitcoin debt or something.

[@trucid2]

Rumors of his death have been greatly exaggerated.

[@JackisJack_]

Anonymous Not sure if China still runs under a feudal system dawg.

[@MezMez]

OH NO NO NO NO NO

[@anymoose]

@@MezMez F

[@turkler1719]

@@trucid2 this comment aged terribly

[@EudoxiaMysteries]

Holy shit, never thought I´d see a video of you again tbh.

[@Rygoat]

This genuinely looks comfortable to play on, I was looking at the layout as being a heavily stripped back PC keyboard.

[@aquaticpears3183]

Silly Bitchell couldn't keep this good man down !

[@Walter_]

Billy mitchel 2020: I used an ASC to get 5:51, see i was right all along.

[@ParcoFolgore777]

Welcome Back. imo this needs it's "own" category, alongside other unortodox controllers made to facilitate input otherwise complex/precise inputs.

[@nottobay6768]

There are probably games where it would be fine to not be a separate part of the ladder. Edit: that should be for the individual communities to decide.

[@MahDryBread]

Nice to see you back! I personally think it shouldn't be banned. At worst, make it it's own category, but even then I'm not sure that's necessary.

[@misty6348]

I don't think people who want to preserve their hands should be pushed aside and thus pressured to use a regular controller. I say allow it across the board. Pushing them aside undermines their achievements. Even if that means allowing double input - ie pressing left and right at the same time. If the game allows double input , its just another glitch speedrunners should be able to use in my opinion. Even double input doesn't make the speedrun any less of a speedrun.

[@justlagan4200]

As much as I would like to say that speedrunning is something that people strive to make more innovative outside of the games themselves, I find that's hard to believe and I don't think that people who have been working on hard tricks with regular controllers would enjoy knowing that there's now a much easier alternative method. I myself think that it should be legal, simply because I think that change is good and new things should be accepted.

[@jaredmitchener9175]

100% has to be its own category at least

[@larsdalaker3519]

I definitely see where you're coming from, and there's nothing to stop anyone from speedrunning using the Smashbox (like Apollo) even if it won't be allowed on the leaderboards. That being said, it's a very expensive piece of equipment,and not easily available (to my knowledge). Competition only matters when everyone plays by roughly the same conditions, which is why I personally think it should be disallowed from the leaderboards, or at least be considered a separate achievement from playing on a normal controller. I'm very interested in seeing how top runners of various games will react to this, and how the situation will unfold.

[@itswonkavision9946]

I swear your picture looks like Billy Mitchell haha

[@maqma_2118]

Allowed, potentially on a separate category for some games.

[@7Lace77]

How could anyone be happy with their times knowing they didn’t achieve those times. It seems to me that there would be no point in playing, like where is the fun in monopoly if you start with all the money? If you know you are going to win due to an unfair advantage is there any point in competing?

[@thevalorousdong7675]

@@7Lace77 it's not like it's exclusive to one person. Go buy one. Quit crying about unfair advantages lol

[@7Lace77]

@@thevalorousdong7675 Erm.... I never complained about having unfair advantages.🤷🏻‍♂️ You mean asking a question based on the video about how it would even be monitored? Then mentioning an example of someone who did cheat and was caught pretending to play.... 🤨

[@nottobay6768]

@@7Lace77 You don't have access to as many possible angle at any given time, there is a downside but some categories it is way to consistent at to be fair.

[@HuaIs5foot3]

@@7Lace77 The smashbox here is causing similar problems that the hitbox and all other products made by these guys have in the fighting game community. I think it's possible that rules will get stricter and require players to prove what controller they're using before a run, but like the main comment says, it's gonna depend on the game. I don't know a lot about the runs for these n64 games. I imagine it would affect SM64 a lot less than Zelda OOT. Some games it literally won't affect at all. I don't think that they didn't achieve those times, these runs even with this thing are gonna be hard as hell. It certainly wouldn't be like the example you gave, you don't just "win" with it. It will just make some runs a little easier, hence the need for stricter rules on certain games.

[@restlesssheep7156]

He's alive.

[@cheesy2440]

It’s kind of like professional esports allowing players to use their own keyboards and Mouses, as well as the button mapping most comfortable for them isn’t it? If everyone has access to the same equipment it then becomes about preference, which means some players may use this and some may use traditional controllers. So in the end everyone will be at their best because they’re using what is most comfortable for their play style (because I bet not everyone is as comfortable using that thing as you are)

[@neonaffliction]

Im very glad you are back, at least you are alive!

[@Purpleturtlehurtler]

I put this on my Watch Later list four years ago and never got to it until today. RIP my guy.

[@lucky_796]

*God has joined the server*

[@cavyv2751]

I may be wrong about this, but I thought ESS adapters are used to remedy the dead zones being messed up on OOT virtual console. To me that makes it seem like a means to solve a problem rather than a way to make the game easier.

[@ForeGoneProduction]

OW LAWD. HE IS BACK

[@TaranVH]

Try working out. Bench press and rows. Stonglifts 5x5. That's how I fixed my own tendonitis. It took 4 years to heal to the point where I no longer have to go to the gym. But I still do.

[@user-qq6si7zv3t]

Fancy finding you here!

[@toomanymarys7355]

8x3 is better for people like me with short attention spans. :)

[@edgarbraintree4370]

Too late . He ded

[@TheBobes]

HE'S BACK BABY!! YEEEEEHAAAAAAW

[@arielvanmoos7583]

Apollo, how great you're back! Just rewatched a few videos and got the feels again.

[@BlackDT]

I thought Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers had tag-teamed to kill you. Good to see you're not dead.

[@blizzhop]

Literally watched a few of your videos last night after months and months and this happens. Funny how that works out sometimes. Welcome back my dude.

[@DenverCav04]

Thank god, I've been really missing you!

[@buggzy9383]

I recently started speedrunning mario 64 because of you. This community is awesome. Welcome back

[@MrDoomGrey]

HE'S ALIVE!!! APOLLO'S ALIVE!!!

[@AllahWarrior]

I have a smashbox, it takes a long time to learn how to use it.

[@kfcnutrients9537]

Glad to see you're back!! See you at your stream

[@BITCOIlN]

Easy answer, just create different sections for smash box and for anything else. Btw. Wouldn't a PC keyboard be just the same?

[@videogamerNattie98]

Well no that wouldn't work because then it would force exclude people into there own leader board yes it would be even but it would also mean your controller is effectively excluded from getting top spot on standard boards. To me I do not foresee this being a problem it stops problems with hand based fatigue and conditions that can incur in the wrists and fingers. and anything you can do with this board you can do with a regular controller also the analog movement is more strict on a smash box. So it doesn't just beat a regular controller outright. To me as long as its a controller that can provide no in game advantage in the sense of something a regular controller cant perform and its on legit hardware I really do not see it being a problem.

[@allahbless2278]

Uh no did you even watch the video? PC keyboard is garbage for movement in general which is why RL pros use controllers

[@vgd6228]

@@allahbless2278 Is RL really relevant here? Also just because keyboards aren't good for rl movement, doesn't mean they are garbage in general. It just depends on the game and the persons preference.

[@RobertFierce]

@@allahbless2278 PC keyboard is garbage for movement? I can't even begin to start to explain how wrong you are in that statement. Just because you are used to holding a controller doesn't mean a keyboard which you can't use is worse. Most of us that have used keyboards for the past 20 years can agree that keyboard beats controller 100% of the time, every time. And remember that PCs also have mice. You don't just use a keyboard on PC. You always use KB and Mouse. And that my friend is unbeatable by a controller. Even when the developer gives the controller the ability to autolock on which happens in all games on consoles. If you somehow still think otherwise, then you never really experienced using a PC or have otherwise spent very little time on one.

[@kevinjacobson4520]

@@RobertFierce There are definitely games that a controller is the preferred option. Rocket League for example like allah said, a majority of the high level players use controller for the extra angles on the control stick. I would think games like SM64 would be similar because a keyboard has a lot less options than a joystick for movement. The mouse option is very useful for First person games, and I don't think anyone would disagree that keyboard and mouse is far superior for FPS style games. But for 3d platformers and the like, controller has an advantage.

[@CaptainHandsome]

I think a problem with these is that part of the appeal of speedrunning for a lot of people is how easy it seems to get into it yourself after watching it. It's just a guy playing the same game you have so you can whip out your Nintendo-box, play your favourite game quick and boom you're a speedrunner. The smashbox doesn't strictly change that - as you say it's not letting you do anything you can't do on a normal controller - however if it got popular it runs the risk of giving off the impression that you need to invest $100 or whatever it costs in order to become a proper speedrunner. You actually see this with Fighting Games, there are people who don't play fighting games who get put off because they think you need to buy an arcade stick in order to properly play them - we might see something similar with the smashbox in speedrunning. All in all it just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of speedrunning to me. Maybe allow it as a separate category or make an Any% No Smash Box category for these sorts of games where it can greatly improve consistency.

[@drewbabe]

This is actually a good point, but the effect is probably not that big. If anything it would take a world record before people would actually start thinking you need one.

[@hyakugame]

If this should be allowed, why don't we allow TAS in normal speedruns?

[@im-essi]

@@hyakugame Because a TAS is a huge-ass macro and this is just a different controller? Comparing the two isn't even apples and oranges, that's like apples and the concept of spaceflight.

[@Shenorai]

Great to see you're still around. Like several others down below, I'd honestly love to see the Smash Box have its own category. Buttons and joysticks have their own perks and quirks, as I'm sure those who have played the first Playstation may agree. [For those unaware, the Playstation initially didn't have joysticks on their controllers, but they were manufactured later on.] Would this also mean that other third-party controllers should have their own category as well? For consistency's sake, sure. The age and type/brand of controller may make all the difference when it comes to handling or just simply the game registering whether or not the intended microswitches are being pressed.

[@Kosmicd12]

Testing smash box instead of the B0XX smh

[@prox276]

Exactly when I thought you were dead, you uploaded this.

[@AltanStray]

I know I'm late but: I'd say it should be allowed but under another category so you have ( any% smashbox used) similar to tas

[@ROYBGP]

I've been binge watching your shit lately. CRAZY you happened to come back!

[@TheExpertGuy]

Separate categories. That would be my vote. Edit: When people say it's hard to learn the controller, you could apply that to any controller. Including originals.

[@lastwymsi]

THE MAN THE MYTH! Welcome back man! Glad to see your still here!

[@anticlimbmax]

I audibly screamed when I got this notification

[@UncleHuntyy]

I didn't even believe it

[@DarthReggie]

Same

[@Architector_4]

0:02

[@hypnotised-clover]

I inaudably screamed, beat that.

[@cvbabc]

I think y'all have lost your minds... Love your channel man! Your videos are entertaining for people who don't even do speed runs.

[@LoudWaffle]

Maybe it should just be made a seperate category, or have a "note" beside each record set while using this controller? Banning it outright seems like going way too far. I understand why some people wouldn't like this because the ease of precision it allows for will give advantages to anyone using it vs. anyone who isn't using it, but it's not like that kind of situation isn't commonplace in speedrunning already. Stuff like different console versions of certain games running faster than their ports on other consoles, even if it's down to a few frames off of loading screens, makes every runner need to play on the fastest console in order to compete. Or stuff like different languages scrolling through text faster demand that people play on a version which has that faster text. If a game becomes noticeably faster to run when played via this controller, that's just the way it is and people have to adapt, I guess? I also don't know how expensive it is, though.

[@aquaprofile]

Yeah different category is way too far, I think so long as it doesn’t allow for anything an original controller couldn’t then let it be allowed. Hell having to buy a ps tv, use a Uk gift card on a uk vpn to buy a certain game version isn’t fair to those who run the us version but no emulators! It’s all silly pretentious nonsense

[@xyifer12]

@Edwin Cheesecake Being competetive in speedrunning doesn't require a capture card.

[@condor64_]

The difference is that differing console speed affects load time and lag, all things outside of player control. This would affect the amount of skill required to do certain tricks.

[@hedgehog3180]

@@xyifer12 How are you supposed to prove your runs otherwise?

[@hedgehog3180]

@@condor64_ Well this isn't considered a very hard trick to do anyways and learning this controller takes some practice anyways so it's not that simple.

[@RetroDrew]

Glad you're still alive and good to have you back!

[@OmegaVideoGameGod]

They should just put these runs into different groups if these controllers are truly making that much a difference. We should keep track of all records because it'll show some impressive results in comparison.

[@Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1024]

Finnally someone with a brain

[@OmegaVideoGameGod]

@@Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1024 Thank you. :)

[@crosssaberstudios2090]

I glanced at the video in my sub feed and kept scrolling in my mind I was like “no I didn’t just see that... then again maybe I DID” so I scrolled back up and was extremely happy

[@Ryusuta]

Have you noticed that the high-profile players that want the Smashbox banned won't play without a modded Smash controller? Food for thought.

[@EvilX24]

@mendaix GC controllers are random af even new they can be terrible for smash. smash ultimate controllers been even worst in term of quality control as well. ''which is why ucf exist''. Tbh I can't believe some people want to ban the smashbox when people are still allowed to play as Marth.

[@Prodigial]

Imagine complaining about Marth of all things in Melee lmao.

[@KyvannShrike]

@@Prodigial something something "Marth Fox is 60 40" something something "Leffen" something something drama

[@EvilX24]

It was a meme but okay

[@Prodigial]

Saying Marth Fox is 60-40 is a meme. The first half of your comment talking about controllers was 100% serious. You gotta be clearer on the internet.

[@akrimmer86]

THE MAN, THE MYTH, THE APOLLO LEGEND!!!!!!! Welcome back my dude!!

[@JadedWallace]

Was hoping you would just not acknowledge disappearing for like half a year like a huge meme but good to see you back my dude. Hope you're alright

[@chris93jones]

I'm just glad youre alright! Cant wait to watch the content flow!

[@gamerincognito6033]

Wouldn't this allow you to input two opposing analog stick inputs at the same time? Like for instance pressing both left and right simultaneously? I know that that was a thing in the fighting game community when some people replicated the stick with directional buttons, they could input commands that weren't expected by the program, thus allowing exploits.

[@ArceusShaymin]

I'm not sure about many other games, but IIRC SMB has this kind of exploit. If this controller (or any other) becomes the norm, all it would take would be any related communities adding the rule "no mapping [impossible command configuration] to configurable controllers," would it not? Seems better that way and could allow for more precise control, thus more impressive runs without costing anyone great risk to their hands.

[@brettoncryderman7129]

the input is averaged and would be as if the control stick was netural

[@nickq8093]

The smashbox cannot input left and right simultaneously as it has SOCD( simultaneous opposing cardinal direction) cleaners.

[@toboterxp8155]

That's because you play SMW on a D-Pad. D-Pad input is basically encoded with four boolean values, one for each direction, making it possible to press two opposing directions at once to generate invalid inputs. But this thing emulates an analog stick. Analog sticks send two numbers, representing the position of the stick on the x and y axis. Pressing two opposing directions will just result in a zero angle, like you didn't even move the stick, and not in invalid inputs.

[@nickq8093]

@@toboterxp8155 in that case it could do it as you can switch the modifiers to dpad with a switch on the side

[@keoghanoldham9421]

Christmas comes early, good to see you back bro

[@TrackDayMaker]

I thought Mitchell had you turned into hot sauce

[@andrewwright1896]

holy shit holy shit man welcome back also i think is more of a challenge to learn and master the speed run art with the smash box

[@thekrendor8189]

Idk why but your voice is very relaxing for me lol after a long day if work watching your vids chill me out (not gay just relaxed) lol

[@CNETech]

he protecc he attacc but most importantly, he bacc!

[@illumiknight8046]

Wooooooo!!!! You’re back!

[@KyvannShrike]

That intro with the geese is pure gold

[@arbetor12]

HE'S ALIVE!!!!

[@R3TROSTARR]

Apollo, it's ok you were gone for months but it's fine, we"re just glad that you are ok happy that you"re back , welcome back !!

[@doublehelixgame]

You're not dead!

[@EveEvernight]

My heart skipped a beat when i saw the post time, welcome back Apollo!

[@Willie_Pete_Was_Here]

I’ll be damned. Apollo Legend and JonTron make their returns within a few days

[@grimaa]

Damn I wad rewatching your videos last night, and now your back!

[@liamb135]

If it's banned then all third-party controllers should also be banned.

[@riggles]

​@Edwin Cheesecake This is beyond being just an analog stick ( also after market 3rd party replacements aren't used for speedrunning, just replacement gears and bowls, the optical sensors are kept original ) The difference is that with this kind of setup you can select the exact angles you want for certain tricks effortlessly without much room for error, unlike with a controller where you can fail an angle because you're nervous or under pressure etc. It removes a few more variables where things can go wrong. If it was an arcade stick that was analog, I would think differently about it, but as it is right now, it's not an analog input but instead macros being executed through a combination of buttons. This does not function like the original controller, unlike 3rd party controllers or the iQue. Another downside for a lot of people is, speedrunning is a spectacle, people want to see speedrunners perform something with hardware that they're familiar with ( a controller ), when you introduce this kind of setup it gets confusing for people to understand whats going on with the analog inputs. And it creates this image that they're doing something that can't be replicated with a controller, even if this isn't true. What we need is an analog stick that is ergonomic and as big as a fighting stick imo, no one would be questioning that since it functions like the original hardware.

[@Zurie]

Take a look at how communities treat turbo controllers; you are allowed to use the controller, but you are limited to using only the features that are also present in official hardware. I see this as no different; you can use the SmashBox, but if you start using the extra features, it becomes a TAS, as the SmashBox is a tool that gives you more features then what are present in the official hardware.

[@DeviantDespot]

@@Zurie Exactly, you can use a controller for basic inputs but the second you use functions beyond a regular controller then you are being literally tool assisted.

[@xavierh.5102]

third party controllers don't have any intended advantages over official controllers though. IMO there's a big difference between a controller that's just more comfortable for you and a controller gives you a legitimate, objective advantage.

[@TRDiscordian]

@@Zurie it's literally sending analogue outputs to the console by mapping the set analogue signals to singular button presses, instead of the tilt of a joystick. It's objectively not a macro, it requires actually more human input than the original controller, it's just easier to make it more precise, and to hit certain button combos because of the layout. So yes, an argument could be formulated against the controller, but not one based on macro capabilities like a turbo controller.

[@zaq3652]

MY MAN! We have all missed you so much

[@clevername9736]

Personally I think it should be allowed when playing speed runs. It allows for a more comfortable experience, and like you said it doesn’t allow you to do anything more than an actual controller, even if it is easier in some aspects. If someone wants to use it I’d say let them use it.

[@petelee2477]

I think professional tournaments should allow this to since it would fight carpel tunnel syndrome and would allow faster paced games overall

[@LeoPaulHelmar]

It is great to hear your voice, friend. Welcome back!

[@panzerraven4135]

Omg he is back! !!!!!

[@TheAshleyYoyo]

You’re back!! It’s good to see you again man 😁

[@FLYNN_TAGGART]

My understanding is that this controller is essentially a controller limited to "useful" inputs. In other words, it's a controller with a premade subset of existing inputs that make it easier to input specific values. The controller, at best, is something which has each button tied to a precise useful state. If we expanded the controller to have "macros" by having, say, an entire row of individual inputs required for a certain useful sequence (e.g. press every button on line 3 from left to right to perform a certain skip), aren't we just making a TAS where the instructions are tied to a million different buttons that need to be pressed in order? I know this doesn't represent a stock Smash Box. But I think this logic would follow to say that the Smash Box is a Tool that Assists in Speedrunning by making the human element of a speedrun more optimized - it removes the difficulty in maintaining accuracy required to pull of harder tricks, so it assists by eliminating the possibility to make many of the flawed inputs possible on a standard controller. EXAMPLES: 1. If a game uses only 5 specific analog stick inputs, then having a button for each removes the skill required to move the stick to those precise positions. 2. If you only need the stick at the most extreme values, then real controllers are limited because they need to pass through from 0 to 128 (or whatever max is) instead of instantaneous travel provided by the Smashbox. You can't move the stick from one extreme to another in a single frame IRL.

[@lspg5397]

This guy is incredibly good at explaining stuff.

[@MrRLYWhite]

My question of whether or not it should be banned is if it's possible to do things that are "impossible" to do on a regular controller? If it's just easier for some things then should be totally fine, but if it allows you to do things that physically impossible on pad then it should be banned.

[@smashboxdevs1428]

That's a really good question. Even though you can go from full left to full right next frame on a Smash Box, you can do that too on most controllers. What makes it bannable is the fact that it can consistently hold your angles with single-digit precision so long as you're holding the right buttons. Now, going from one set of buttons to another in a frame-perfect scenario - especially when you may need to hold as many as 4 buttons just for the directional inputs - also not impossible so long as you're an octopus.

[@sarkedev]

He said a few times that it doesn't let you do anything you can't do with a regular controller, but I don't think this is correct. For SMB there are trick only TAS can do that involves pressing both left and right on the same frame. Something that is impossible on a d-pad or analog stick, but looks like it's very possible on this controller.

[@denskosnorebandit]

I think allowing more unique alternatives to more standard controllers would bring new players to the speedrunning community. Ive played fighting games for the better part of a decade and, though I've always enjoyed watching speedruns for games like golden eye and OoT, I could never get over how much I disliked the n64 controller, and most other controllers for that matter. My dislike for most controllers lead me to run games like resident evil and dino crisis on epsxe due to the simplicity of the controls allowing me to have more success with an arcade stick over standard ps1 or 2 controllers, not to say a standard arcade stick is out right better. The use of the smash box on the n64 and the freedom you have to have more "analogish" inputs gets me kind of excited to go back and try running OoT and other n64 games again.

[@user-cn4ci5wx1s]

The effort to learn the controller makes you deserve the gains.

[@cold8236]

Holy shit! So glad you’re back

[@xtgxice1854]

I missed the stream, so does anyone know what happened? (To Apollo during his time gone I mean)

[@jobliar937]

Go to his channel home then click on community, he reuploaded it there is a link there

[@jobliar937]

Apollo Legend was in the cave with Just one way out and it was guarded by 69 of twin galaxy's highest paid cheaters. ApollO was able to kill about 30 of them but in the end it was too much. He dragged 23 guards Back into there caves and he used his sonic scream to cause a cave in behind him. There seemed to be no way out but ApolLo didn't give up. He used the bones from the bodIes to create tools for digging and he used the meAt fRom the bodies to keep hIm alive. After 8 monthS digging in that Cave he finally reached the surface. ApOllO traveLed to Billys house and dabbed on him, it was a fatal blow and Billy immediately died. A free man, Apollo returned to his wife 3 kids and 12 beautiful grandkids. He was finally able to continue his KZbin career and he lived happily ever after. *an intellectual will noticed that the odd capitalization mistakes were no accident*

[@xtgxice1854]

JOB LIAR Your name explains your second comment so well

[@codieb5612]

Mostly, he just wanted to lay low and stay quiet until things settled. Not really much of anything we didn't already know, happened. Rumors about lawsuits and murders were fake

[@Postie-B]

Good to have you back man!

[@stranger6822]

If it saves people's hands, it absolutely should be allowed. I don't know how you can make a good faith argument against it when you're talking about health.

[@hyakugame]

Then just play on a keyboard?

[@stranger6822]

@Paul Johnson I hear you but, in this case, the intent isn't to make up for an existing health condition, but to prevent one. It's like sports banning steroids.

[@stranger6822]

@Paul Johnson steroids are banned because they cause health problems, but everyone would have to use them to compete if they weren't banned. Smash boards are the inverse: they prevent health problems in some people and not everyone chooses to use them.

[@ExquisiteTaco]

Glad to see you back my man!

[@XiuHang]

To throw my two cents here. Does N64 and Gamecube have an equivalent to SNES's 17th input? Cause if that exists then anything that'd allow you access to that would feel like cheating IMO. The other issue I have is at the point where one person is using a smashbox to speedrun an N64 game and another person is using an N64 controller to speedrun that same game, if that game has something like your OoT example, something requiring precise joystick control and proper timing, and you remove one of the two things that makes something difficult via hardware it feels like you'd have two people playing two different games. N64 controller guy would be playing an N64 game while Smashbox guy would basically be playing Stepmania with really harsh judgement.

[@yoshister]

For a second I was confused Great to see you back

[@cucamorais]

WHAT THE F DUDE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU DID YOU REALLY GOT WRECKED BY CRYPTO?

[@WalknTalknStevnHawkn]

cucamorais get your head checked out

[@IntermissionForBunny]

Apollo got tendonitis from digging his way out of the grave Billy Mitchell buried him in

[@Poop-nu1so]

Whether or not this controller should be banned from speedruns is too specific...should only original console controllers be allowed? Should speedruns be allowed on original consoles only? Game "purity" is the question at hand. Universal standards for different types of speedrunning need to be defined. I think that is the answer.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

External hardware is irrelevant.

[@occamsbutterknife9186]

I own the original Hitbox for fighting games and it's an amazing controller. It's also nice for some retro gaming. This is the first I've heard of the Smashbox and it looks awesome! These guys make a good product.

[@MakotoIchinose]

Allowed, without seperate category that'll bloated the leaderboards. All the controls are there, it works with unmodified game, no turbo toggle (I don't know if this is controversial). The only thing different is the controller is entirely digital and more ergonomic to some than vanilla GC controller, and it's different form factor making it a "chocolate" controller. TL:DR; "Chocolate" controllers like the Smash Box should be allowed without further discrimination.

[@JudgmentSigma]

I am glad you are back, alive and well! I subbed because of that!

[@drahunter213]

I’d say it walks the line very closely I guess it depends on the games

[@blankblank6917]

Holy shit man, glad to see your back!

[@GRMonty]

Stop the daily uploads! You keep spamming my sub box

[@DaemonicSavior]

Would you rather he be punching your fartbox?

[@ThatguyJosh1]

And when the world needed him the most, he reappeared

[@kingcobrajfssepaboosterclub]

He protecc He attacc But most importantly He bacc

[@flashburn117]

Coming from a Melee point of view in addition to being a fan of speed running, I don't think the Smashbox should be legal in either. I think changing analog inputs into digital inputs is changing the limits within the game's systems through use of said inputs basically making it a potentially different game. The smashbox would be redefining what is and isn't possible in a lot of situations in Melee at least, and it would make a lot of techniques, HESS or wavedashing or invincible ledgedashing for examples, significantly easier, which in the Melee world constitutes as an indirect nerf to players who have practiced their inputs for so long. As you said, it changes delicate analog movements within timing windows to just timing windows, thus making basically half of the perceived skill involved in the technique free. However, in speed running, since there is no direct human interaction in a PvP game such as Melee, I think there could be compromises and concessions made to accommodate smashboxes. Maybe a different category where people can run games using non-first party controllers. I know even record legal version of the game have been debatable with some people wanting only official releases being legal, so I feel this would also be an issue. There's also an issue of people modifying their smashboxes with macros that could lead to cheating. While a controller cam is nice to make things more transparent, there's a fair amount of people who make and mod their own smashbox type controllers and have put mods and macros into it. In melee, we'd have to sanction and standardize inspections of such custom controllers which as a grassroots community, we simply don't have the resources or the man power to do at larger events. There's just a lot of ways to look at it and I personally think that while it's a nice idea, it's not practical to implement legally in the current state of melee and maybe not for the state of speed running. Again, primarily from a Melee standpoint.

[@flashburn117]

I forgot to add one thing. I think if the Smashbox had an actual analog fight STICK type deal I'd have more room for discussion. There are actually some custom smashbox style controller that have actual sticks that I've seen over the years that well predate any of the custom gamecube fight stick style controllers, but they've most all been fun thought experiments by individuals in the melee community. Smashbox, B0XX, and Stickless are all following the same model of not having any analog inputs.

[@RedHairdo]

@@flashburn117 Yup, the Smash box is literally a hack. It should be banned for the same reason 20XX is banned from respectable tournaments (as opposed to using an original Melee disc, to avoid modified disc images, be they burnt to disc or externally stored).

[@flashburn117]

RedHairdo except there’s still UCF >_>

[@stevenickell4206]

Glad to have you back !

[@LeesPizza]

Wait I would like to see the questions and answers. Will you be posting that Dec 1st stream?

[@jumpingbarista6486]

Woah woah woah, I’m taken back a bit. Welcome back dude!

[@albertice2]

As a guy who missed that stream can someone tldr why he has been gone for ten months?

[@thrillhouse_vanhouten]

Welcome back bruv. Glad the Mitchel Mafia didn't rub you out!

[@picesnl61]

Anyone know where we can watch this stream? Missed it and would like to watch