Should We Remove Casual? [TF2]

quickplay my beloved
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support the channel - / lister
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songs used:
MOTHER 3 - His Highness' Playroom
Homestuck Vol.8 - Davesprite
Homestuck coloUrs and mayhem - Gold Mage
Homestuck Vol.9 - ASSAULT
Homestuck Vol.1 - Showtime
(i wasnt a homestuck kid i just like the music okay shut up)

[@ALTEMERI]

they said muting new players was a temporary solution, yet its been like, 4 years since they put it in the game.

[@dumbvillage9253]

The Gas Passer bug fix was apparently an intentional feature to prevent a 2nd jarate bushwhacka combo.

[@Kuzess]

Valve time moment

[@Reimu__Hakurei]

They can’t count past 3 let alone 4

[@weegeenumberone2]

nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution

[@adamthelemon]

Better safe than sorry y'know.

[@RichterOvertime]

But the art bro it was so soulful bro U wouldnt get it

[@energeticyellow1637]

@@RichterOvertime so when are you and Gabber gonna storm Valve HQ to take back quickplay in minecraft?

[@Outta_Tune]

im so soul-pilled

[@NotAevrel]

in the woods getty go bang bang

[@wearqewqewrwqer]

retard overtime

[@seva7500]

ammmmm boutttaaaa Blow!!!

[@Cyperstudio]

I miss the old map vote system, I HATE how we cant extend the current map or vote on a 5 map pool while the match is still going

[@nivolai8837]

PLEASE VOLVO, LET ME FUCKING TALK

[@magical571]

it's just 1-2 dollars.....are you underage? i understand that not everyone can splur on unusuals, stranges and such, but just getting a single key or the contractor is a very cheap one and done thing.....

[@John-el1ki]

@@magical571have you ever thought that they could be in a country that barely gives them any money?

[@dyllie1913]

​@@magical571You shouldn't have to pay money to access basic features of the game

[@nivolai8837]

@@dyllie1913 exactly! also buying premium to talk in casual is telling Valve that this is acceptable

[@wander6296]

pay us 5 dollars to call medic or spy

[@urgentfusionguy7143]

PLEASE stop forcing a map vote every 2 rounds. It's the single worst thing the devs did to TF2. The game's more loading than game now because of it. I miss being able to just join a server and play just one or two maps over the course of hours.

[@Sandvichin]

Watch the entire video before commenting guys.

[@skhighglitch4217]

What was that Sandvich? Watch the video?!? GOOD IDEA!

[@MathisMakesContent]

@@skhighglitch4217 Bad idea, Sandvich. (evil heavy line)

[@WhyHandlesIMeanFroggchamp]

But dude THE BOT PROBLEM IS GONE

[@MathisMakesContent]

@@WhyHandlesIMeanFroggchamp That's why they want it removed

[@Sandwich_Eater09]

can I ate ya?

[@Hay-ate]

Casual is just painful in the Asia scene, having to play against 6 man parties with comp players, closet cheaters and having no way to communicate, not even call for a medic has to the most painful experience in my life. I've been playing since the game went F2P in Uber update and lately I'm just fed up with the game I used to love so much.

[@sdfggdfg5fgdfg]

no matter what region you are there will always be cheaters. lots of russians

[@eurobeatintensifies5840]

The very fact you cant even spectate or switch teams is still insane to me even 8 years on

[@backstabbingscumbag6657]

They did it so the game would be more "competitively viable"

[@tf2bananatf2]

Can we just get valve servers back in the server browser? I've been missing this feature for almost 10 years.

[@wilburcobb8990]

@@tf2bananatf2 yes, please.

[@ME0WMERE]

That would be an ad-hoc connection, which is not allowed (because of the bots)

[@tf2bananatf2]

@@ME0WMERE No, it was removed because when Casual was first rolled out, they tried to make it pseudo-competitive by introducing a penalty for leaving mid-game. They wanted the people who got sorted into a match to stay in that match for the entire duration. Of course, this was so unpopular that it was rolled back within a week or so. But valve servers were never added back to the server browser regardless.

[@wilburcobb8990]

@@tf2bananatf2 they removed it a year before MyM though

[@AIOXYZ]

also can we have all talk back

[@Arska00]

In my experience people leave after ONE ROUND. Like when I'm playing a game of payload and the first round is decent but when it ends people just leave and so the second round becomes terrible. People are way too quick to leave the game and it takes too long for the matchmaking system to replace those leavers.

[@_.-.]

The days of spending up to an hour with the same people on the same map, mutually adapting to what the lobby was doing are long gone, and I miss them.

[@nicklenuts]

Yeah I've noticed that if ur team loses one round half the team leaves lol

[@marcuso7350]

Sadly for some It is faster to queue for another game than to stay in the same server waiting for match ending animations, map vote, the server changing/reastarting maps all the time, warmup, match start animations, etc. While queue again puts you in another server straight up, casual just has a lot awful of waiting doing nothing

[@kimmy620]

I have no idea what people see in the current Casual. I play TF2 since 2012 and I just can't get it. The only cool thing Casual added was fancy map vote and end screen. There is so many features missing from old quick play.

[@magical571]

what is it missing?

[@simplysmiley4670]

It's easy and effortless to find matches on maps you want to play on, without a metric shitload of plugins like with community servers. Alongside reliable enough valve servers, no little timmy's server hosted on a 10 years old laptop.

[@kimmy620]

@@simplysmiley4670 This was already possible. Valve added an option to only search for Valve servers in 2014, and it was enabled by default. That's how community servers died so hard already pre MyM.

[@energeticyellow1637]

simplysmiley4670 All of that was possible in the quickplay era, what are you talking about?

[@autismreal4]

@@simplysmiley4670 THEY LET YOU ONLY PLAY ON VALVE SERVERS IN TOUGH BREAK

[@zenoooooo]

Casual definitely needs to either be removed or reworked - all systems must be evaluated on their ability to be abused and to inflict abuse on others. Casual, as it stands right now, currently puts a huge amount of power with anyone that puts 6 players in a stack, or any script kiddie that fills their party with bots. Running into script kiddies in a stack to protect themselves from votekicks or to votekick dissenting players is a very common sight. This is all even ignoring the fact that Casual has huge amounts of downtime between matches and that some huge portion of the time your matches will be functionally dead, or just a miserable stomp- in part to the party system. A party leaves together- leaving a massive vacuum in their wake. A party joins the game, and adds a massive power imbalance to one team. The party system necessitated by the matchmaking system fucking sucks.

[@CoolSs]

I am in the camp of removing it. Add Quick play back. both system cannot be mixed, Casual mode party system and map selection is harmful to the game health. party allow steam rolls and cheating parties. Map selection kill leased play maps and everyone play on the same map over and over. also re-queuing while playing is nice but it's why 90% of player abandoned the match at the end and why everyone leave the moment server switch into a map they don't want to play on. Your unlisted retrospective video on MYM is one of the best time capsule i keep citing it on how bad and still bad casual mod is. you were the bird in the coal mine. thank you. #BringBackQuickplay #CommunityQoLRequests

[@magical571]

@@CoolSs i find lobbies for every map except some very few exceptions (and even then, it's not that i don't find them, it's just that it will queue me with a different server).... why remove it? all you two are saying is that the vote kick system is broken, which it is (any petty B will start a vote if you don't pocket them). and selecting the map is a plus not a con.....and as i said, it's not stopping you from finding lobbies for the rest, and i say that coming from a relatively small country; a bigger, more populated one will have even less of an issue (and i know that for a fact, because i'll get queued to virginia if it's too late at night lol) Casual is easily accesible and flexible. and since the bot fixes, it's been a great experience.

[@CoolSs]

@@magical571 I am worried that the bad habit of requeuing at the end of game will stay. and if it stay, people will keep doing the same thing. that is when we get less popular maps (hydro nightfall etc..) people will just leave and re-que when they get them. you used to have to commit for a game back in the days. now people will leave, what will also cause steamrolls. i think map selection is neat but i blame requeuing and MS for those issues.

[@RickOConnell327]

@@zenoooooo removing the ability to play with friends would unironically kill TF2

[@joltz..2042]

Removing casual is the worst thing that could happen to tf2

[@_.-.]

Yes fucking please. It removed the whole chill attitude people had at pubs, all because they are trying to chase the whole dopamine loop for short attention spans that plagues gaming right now

[@badmanplan]

People start votes to kick new or bad players. It's incredibly sweaty for no real reason other than losing one round usually means having to queue up again.

[@energeticyellow1637]

This. Old pups were so laid back. Although there's technically no "real" incentive to win because it's all cosmetic, it goes to show just how psychologically manipulative just a few features and alterations can be to make people take the game far more seriously. The short rounds, hyping up the start of the round with that door shutter animation and music, the XP modifiers, all of it has no place in a laid back casual game like TF2 IMO.

[@TeenWithACarrotIDK]

Casual also just is terrible matchmaking wise and with cheaters. Also, people not only will, but also *all can* , talk on community servers.

[@me67galaxylife]

@@badmanplan imagine not playing community servers lmaoooo

[@me67galaxylife]

yep people don't want to play community servers because they're too lazy to search for one for 5 minutes

[@SealShpeeDaSweggy]

And for the love of god, please bring back Ad-hoc connections. I want to join my friend's game through Steam instantly rather than having to join his party and then wait until his game is finished or just HOPE the game coordinator finally puts me in. People like to use the retort that ad-hoc connections can be exploited by bad actors, but that just isn't true at all. If a player is causing you disturbance on a specific server, just kick them and they won't be able to join back for a certain period of time. And hey, it's not like they can go on your profile and join you through there, because that option was removed years ago. It's really not as exploitable as people once thought. Oh and if we want this back, then please, stop reserving player slots, especially if you're allowed to switch teams again. I hate having to wait for half my team who are still connecting while the opposing team are all already in, which facilitates stomps and unbalanced round that forces games to end within minutes.

[@RickOConnell327]

Don't remove! IMPROVE

[@tomfreeman3816]

very ironic considering the reason this is even in discussion is because of the sheer amount of things meet your match REMOVED.

[@CoolSs]

So we are remaking QP but the name ? wouldn't be more efficient to get QP back then improve it.

[@singleNim]

I bought the Orange Box in 2013. Before this topic started becoming popular again, I was seemingly the only person who preferred casual over quickplay. Quickplay was outdated 3 years after its introduction and the server browser (even more dated) is functional but painful to use. Quickplay was never fun for me. It was confusing, boring, and not compatible with the way I wanted to play. It wasn't a friendly system for new players, especially those who hadn't played multiplayer FPS games before. Casual has problems, plenty of them, but I want to see them worked on rather than trying to go back to some golden era influenced heavily by people's nostalgia. There are multiple reasons Valve will never revert MYM, but Jungle Inferno contracts being broken would be a good enough reason on its own. Spectator is also never going to come back because there are multiple exploits players can use to affect the game, several of which were used by bots. Some have been fixed but there are more out there, even a few discovered more recently. I imagine Valve decided it was better to simply remove spectator than take the risk of new exploits being found and having to fix them. Edited to add: Part of the reason the server browser is painful is because of the "encrapification" of it. Any server owner can make it say anything. Wanna play 2fort? Half the servers with 2fort in the tags are not playing 2fort, they just use the tag to get their server in front of players' eyes in hopes that they join and decide to stay/view ads/spend money on them. Wanna play vanilla? Half those servers have rtd and don't tag it. Don't even get me started on servers playing a map with a seemingly innocuous name, then you join and..... yeah. Also Valve won't let F2Ps speak again because they don't want to test the consequences of allowing hate speech and legally gray speech like telling people to unalive themselves or r*pe/death threats. Yes, bot hosters got around this by simply buying premium accounts, but Valve is "allowing" that because not allowing it means having to moderate chat and handle reports. Which is something they have never ever done up until they finally nuked the bots and hosters, which they are likely still doing even now. Valve won't revert that change because it would incentivize degenerates to do what they do best. F2Ps whose vocabulary is not 50% slurs were an unfortunate but necessary sacrifice to Valve.

[@jvbfjvbf]

@@CoolSs Did you even watch the video?

[@CoolSs]

@@jvbfjvbf yes i did and asking to improve casual mode is just remaking QP but with map selection and the party system. casual is Quickplay with less features. if you never heard of it, Meet your match is not defined by what it added but what it removed and nerfs. did you even understand my comment before replying to me?

[@cyancookie1937]

One thing I really miss is making connections with people. Being in a server with a lot of the same people for a long time made for a lot of opportunities to socialise and also created interesting play patterns. "Oh that's the heavy that's always friendly, I'm gonna go hi five them" "Oh that's the tryhard soldier, he likes to use gunboats so I need to be careful of their mobility when I fight them. Maybe I should use the direct hit to airshot them" "The engineer who likes to build sentries in unexpected places is on my team, I can try to bait people into it if I get caught in a bad spot" "This guy is catching on to the way I play spy, I'm gonna switch up my approach to catch them off guard" As it is right now after just a few minutes the entire server changes and I lose all the new rivalries and friendships I could have made. I definitely remember making a lot more new friends in game before meet your match. Please come back 45 minute map timer.

[@gunspy]

queue for 15 minutes, find a match, overtime! the match is over, everyone leaves, queue again

[@ignasignas9469]

Then dont leave the mach.

[@FreakyFruit]

You do realize people don't leave servers normally right? I've been in a server for hours, the match resets and loads of people stay.

[@GordsZarack]

@@ignasignas9469 stay in the server, its a 5v2 because most people left, pubstomp twice, everyone leaves

[@seffor]

Where tf do you live? Antarctica? I genuinely queue for around 15 seconds max

[@FreakyFruit]

@@seffor I usually wait 1 min max if I'm queuing for an underrated map. Only way it'll be 15 mins is if someone actually has awful ping/internet or just searched for the most unpopulated map.

[@SB-dc5on]

Add Quickplay back or rework casual so it’s actually a casual experience and not a pubstomping server

[@kimmy620]

Not even CS casual is this strict, and CS is all about comp

[@BackStreetMan]

???

[@WSWC_]

Proper making of matches? Lol said the scorpion, lmao

[@blueblaze7312]

I just got back from a few games, and, yeah, pretty much what's been said is true. Ended up losing a couple games because team could hardly get out of spawn. Getting camped

[@poplo230]

These days i end up in 2fort servers with level 150 snipers which i have no idea if are bots. And i cant have fun when playing around with the other friendlies

[@tentatentacles]

Calling Kotaku a "news outlet" is comedic I'm sorry I had to say it

[@BlitzKanec]

4:24 it even has a random crit toggle button! having that in the game would end that whole random crits vs no random crits in casual debate

[@wilburcobb8990]

imagine...people just joining the servers that were made for them instead of trying to force it on everyone else...

[@donanilao7724]

*sigh* Valve is never going to press ctrl+c and ctrl+v to bring back 90% of Quickplay into Casual because they'll be too exhausted from treadmill work. Pack it up, men. We failed.

[@energeticyellow1637]

Meet your Match was an update defined by not what it added, but what it removed. So many player choices and options to curate your own experience was just thrown out the window and for what reason? At least with quickplay if you didnt like the system you did not have to engage with it and use the server browser, but now that Matchmaking essentially killed the community server browser, you have no choice but to play Casual if you want a somewhat vanilla experience with all the features used to keep games balanced and fun like autoscramble, ad-hoc connections, team switching, and a functional autobalance removed. Matchmaking has NO place in TF2.

[@peenkle6857]

that sounds oddly familiar... robertogonzalez2014 ring a bell?

[@pikachufrankie]

It was done to copy Overwatch. That’s the reason.

[@4smo]

Addressing the "features" that would be lost in the transition from Casual to Quickplay. 8:28 1.) Your Casual badge is meaningless. It does not reflect your in-game skill and even if it did, why should you care? Your rank never resets at the end of a season and your rank never decreases for performing poorly. We've been stuck in the same season of Casual since the launch of MyM. It doesn't matter if you're b4nny or carlos.gonzalez.2007, both can reach the max tier just by playing the game. 2.) The party system is one of Casual's biggest problems. It assists with causing the steam rolls that Casual is well known for by assigning all party members to the same team. During the Quickplay era, doing this was called 'team stacking' and it was highly frowned upon. Another flaw with Casual's party system is that it limits you to only being able to play with 6 of your friends. During the Quickplay era you just had to find a server with enough empty slots. However by far the largest flaw with Casual's party system is that it forces your friends to wait 10+ minutes in a queue to join your match, regardless if there are open slots on the server. During the Quickplay era, your friends just had to right click your name, left click 'join game', then they would be in your match in a matter of seconds. 3.) Casual is thousands of times worse at finding specific maps than Quickplay ever was. Sure if you want to play Badwater and Upward, it's great! But what if I want to go off the beaten path? Here is a fun little experiment that everyone reading can try. Queue for plr_pipeline, then start a stopwatch and post your results. I'm willing to bet that it takes most people over an hour to find a match. I know that this is by far the most extreme example, but even maps of average popularity can take a few minutes to find. During the Quickplay era, all maps took the same amount of time to find regardless of popularity. Want to play koth_suijin? Select 'King of the Hill', click show servers, then find a Suijin server in the list. Screw waiting 2 minutes, how does 30 seconds sound? I will not compromise. Casual matchmaking is rotten to it's core and it's time for it to go. #BringBackQuickplay

[@bonopo]

me when i post misinformation on the internet

[@4smo]

@@bonopo me when i post misinformation on the internet

[@RichterOvertime]

He speaks principled truth

[@JOHN-wm2on]

​@@RichterOvertimeRichterOvertime putting in the over time to gas up his own shit under comments with single digit likes for something that will probably never get added.

[@bonopo]

@@RichterOvertime I often see new players excited to level up their badge and it gives them a reason to stick around until they get a grasp on what they are doing. Its not meant to be a reflection of your skill so everything this dude is saying about the badge is pointless. Being able to party with people is one of the (many) great features casual has over quickplay. I don't know why this guy thinks only competitive pros use the party feature to stomp games but apparently playing with friends is a bad thing now. Autobalance splits parties anyway and if the changes Lister advocates for in this video were implemented we would see party members playing on opposite teams anyways. The queue times argument is just straight up a lie, and anyone who actually plays casual knows that. Joining your friends through casual is fast today and would take exactly the same amount of time as it did before MYM if the requirement to be on your friends team was lifted without needing to mash the join game button. I don't know why people keep using the argument that it takes forever to find a dead map. Casual gave players more autonomy to play the maps they actually want, and thus the maps people don't want to play are not played often. Any sort of argument about popularity of every map back then vs today is irrelevant considering how many more maps there are today compared to back then. If there is not a critical mass of players searching for a plr_pipeline game, what do you want the matchmaker to do? Its not valves fault nobody else wants to play on that map with you. I think its great that casual requires at least 12 people to start a server instead of just dropping you into an empty match because then you can play other maps in the background while searching for your dead maps and once the queue pops you know its going to actually be a game of players instead of solitary confinement. The only real arguments presented are easily fixed by the changes proposed in this video and we get to keep the numerous benefits that casual has over quickplay, so asking for a full revert is so backwards.

[@fluury]

I can't confirm what you're saying from my anecdotal EU experience. Community servers hit the bucket the moment Valve made Valve Servers the default in Quickplay. That "final iteration" did not have Community Servers and Valve Servers "coexist" - it was very much a similar situation to the one right now. Obviously having the option at all was still better than the "Server Browser only" method that's there today, but they definitely did not "coexist" well from my experience. All my favorite server chains died a few months after the setting that made Valve servers default sadly, so bringing back Quickplay in that final form wouldn't change much, I think.

[@JOHN-wm2on]

I started to play TF2 during the Gun Mettle era and never really bothered to change any of the quick play settings. I think it's fair to assume that a lot of new players would probably just stick with default settings considering that the official Valve servers were already a great experience by themselves giving them no reason to change things up.

[@energeticyellow1637]

This is true, I distinctively remember some of my favorite community servers dying throughout 2014 ever since Valve enabled the official servers only option by default. But, they were still hanging on by a thread thanks to community servers hoping to get a glance by those sifting through the server browser, but MyM was the final nail in the coffin since it removed ad-hoc connections on Valve servers entirely.

[@Genuline]

I think its rich that people don't want to remove casual which has been the "status-quo" when quickplay was yanked away from us while it was also the status-quo. it was a change nobody wanted since the idea of matchmaking / competitive TF2 was to be in a vacuum completely separate from real TF2, not half-heartedly implemented for everyone. why should we lend credence to the casual audience & make these dumb incremental changes when quickplay was suddenly removed aswell?

[@SigmaMale1440p]

no you dont get it bro it would fracture the community bro we need to keep the horrible system nobody wanted in the first place bro

[@ajmickey6747]

because replacing casual with quickplay, as nice as it would be, just isnt as realistic. tf2 doesnt get the same attention from valve it got way back then - times are different, so while you're not wrong, its just not likely to happen (+ valve being stubborn - they didnt revert it back in 2016, would they really now...?)

[@tim14022000]

@@ajmickey6747 I don't think they aren't just stuborn but also pathetic and lazy. Like seriously. They refuse to change cosmetics paint regions nor fix warpaints that weren't importet properly because "People have already spend money on it"

[@lazyvector]

​@@tim14022000 so true. Literally "hey, we know the phone you bought from has has some serious defects, but hey, you've already spent money on it, maybe you'll like it that way"

[@carotte9581]

But bro! Think about the hecking hulsum high tier medal I've accumulated! We can't change that bro, We just need to IMPROOOOOVE the current casual system, we need to COMPROMISE! because.. we just have to, ok!?

[@NiiRubra]

No, just fix it, like you said, no need to get rid of it, especially considering that if we got rid of it, we'd just be playing harvest, turbine and 2fort forever, which I do not find appealing at all. The entire reason why I don't play using the server browser anymore, is the lack of variety in the maps people vote for.

[@NiiRubra]

Like, look at the list at 6:07, while those are not the maps I cited, look at the lack of variety in that list. I'm sorry, upward, thunder mountain, barnblitz, tend to be neat, but I have played them a million times, I'd rather play all of the other maps that exist in tf2, so no thank you.

[@FreakyFruit]

@@NiiRubra Literally agree with what you said. Back in quickplay I always got the same maps like 2fort, Turbine, Harvest and Dustbowl. While I don't mind going to Dustbowl from time to time, the lack of maps to pick from back in Quickplay was awful. Never used it much, I always used the community server to find servers with maps that I want which was already difficult with the lack of servers AND players on them.

[@ImNotSimon_totally]

also the whole probably randomly ending up in a slender fortress/jailbreak/whatever server since it's community servers is... yeah, not good

[@xoids126]

The thing is, there Was more map verity in the server browser, with all default maps having full servers. But then they died, because of casual.

[@CoolSs]

why fix what is broken when we already had a perfectly fine and good system ? you just wasting time and effort by undoing the mistake the long way instead of just a fix.

[@UncleDane]

Great video. To me this issue is very similar to the random crits debate. Logically you make a lot of great points, but most players are just too used to the current status quo for Valve to take a risk making such a contentious change. The only thing we can really do is to seek out specific environments that satisfy the particular kind of TF2 we each want to play. We have always had a lot of freedom to do that in this game, but it has the downside of fracturing the community in many different directions.

[@RichterOvertime]

noppe bing back quick pay

[@CoolSs]

smart enough to recognize that the wind of comp is long dead are we dane ? "And I am very confident that in five years from now. there will be an entire generation of tf2 players who will cite competitive mode. as a reason why they started to play the game in the first place" you are wrong about crits and trickle down balancing too.

[@DrWAHReal]

no, #bringbackquickplay

[@CEO_OF_BELLIC_ENTERPRISES]

Unkledan is dumb dictator with no democracy in his servers, stupid class limits and imbecilic player base who like to play the same 10maps

[@dyllie1913]

People are going to complain if something they're used to changes, but it's just the way it goes. You can't always expect something to remain the exact same forever, like weapon balances. If something changes, you have to deal with it. If people leave because Casual gets changed or removed, so what?

[@MrSlaughterrific]

oh my god I forgot about the final quick play menu. The option to do only valve or valve and community was so good. Bring this backkkkk

[@peladorkis]

a lister video babyyyy WHOOOOO!!!!! man im eating good tonight! now at this point, people who have seen gabber's videos, or lister's, or zesty jesus (soon, soon) look at all these objective upsides, facts, and go "nahh, we should keep casual, because!" are either just, actually stupid, comically misinformed, or a troll (most definitely the 3rd), which has gotten tiring, *really* tiring. while i'm still hopeful we can get a full return, it's wishful thinking, but still, you'll never know if you don't try, i suppose we can start fixing casual, maybe one day we can silently kill it, dumping it in the backalley dumpster it previously belonged in at this point im just gonna start hollering Heckerlied: tf2 edition, fuuuuck this shit is so easy to do you my good fellow, are a godsend, the fact this was able to actually convince me on perhaps a more logical way of getting quickplay back in some sense is really surprising, actual substance to think about right here, not just a reminder that most other tf2ubers would 100% do, diamond in the rough type stuff

[@sussy3778]

I'm surprised no one mentioned that to this day, the Party function still has the "Keep Players in the Same Team" option grayed out because Valve bothered to implement it, which means you can't even fight your friends on a match without autobalance.

[@Typotypes]

Yea but the casual metal go *DING *DING *DING *RAD AS HELL SPIN

[@mythos951]

As a whole, I would also like to see changes to some default settings, like the fov for instance. I just feel like it’s a huge barrier that stops newer players from really getting into the game.

[@rubberduckyducky2336]

valve should also objectively revert the map voting system, it is a hot steaming pile of buggy shit that absolutely kills map variety compared to being able to nominate whatever map you want to nominate, the new system pretty much killed many maps and i'd also like to say that because of the GUI, it's a big leap i know but hear me out, the quickplays' GUI was horizontal, meaning theres technically no defined bottom for maps or gamemodes, but now that casuals vertical, it sorta has a defined bottom for things, not to mention the things at the bottom aren't even checked off like before, so if you argue that "but PL's at the bottom, so you're wrong" i'd say it's because it's not only payload but also the fact that it's checked off immediately and you don't have to do a big scroll or anything, meanwhile with something like PLR, it's not even checked off and it's at the bottom alongside the misc shit, so why scroll to a bottom that isn't even checked off by default? theres also the whole debacle with the leveling system and if we need it or whatever

[@rdr7510]

as a new player i personally hate the casual system

[@rdr7510]

the amount of times a matches has ended so quickly due to steamrolling is annoying

[@rdr7510]

and im all for a command if better

[@mythos951]

You basically summed up my entire perspective on this. Thank you lister.

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

10:34 Tighteen had warned us

[@dawidkotlinski]

>meet tour match was released nearly a decade ago 😮

[@Totellynetasknwaker-qb6vy]

Casual is the reason bots can easily take over

[@magical571]

what stops them from queuing on quickplay......if suddenly everyone had to move back to quickplay, you think every server is gonna be a wholesome and moderated community experience lol? The bots are here, valve needs to keep up with the ban waves, that's it

[@dyllie1913]

The bot crisis started literally a week after it was introduced

[@simplysmiley4670]

At the same time barely anyone wants ads every time they join a server, plugins and whatnot being a chance by default, plus some players want specific maps that aren't 2fort, upward, hightower to play on without having to use the dated and half the time barely working server browser.

[@tim14022000]

@@simplysmiley4670 Did you not watch the video? It was only really a problem back when quickplay was still really new and just placed you in any kind of server. The quickplay that people want didn't do that. As the video said you could change between Official, Community and Both. Valve used an algorithm for the community one where it's less likey that it puts you on a server based on how quickly people left after they joined So yes, getting put into a server with ad spam did happen but it wasn't that common (also you could blacklist them)

[@tim14022000]

@@magical571 They could technically still que on quickplay but the bot crisis would never have happened thanks to the lack of a party system and based on how joining a match worked. 6 players are half of a team and half a team is basically only needed for a vote to be valid or invalid so bots were able to take control over the Valve servers extremely easily. During the quickplay era you couldn't easily fill up a server with bots like that and together with servers usually being extremely full you, which to be fair made playing together with a huge amount of friends a bit difficult, made it very difficult for them join in huge groups without the first bot getting kicked as soon as it joins which basically makes it more difficult for the other bots to join Put that together with the fact that Community servers are much better moderated with their own anti cheats and valve servers plus community servers being way more servers to tackle made it basically impossible for the bot crisis to ever happen

[@purple6012]

TF2 was never meant to be competitive, MYM was the worst update.

[@vozzy110]

If i was in my prime i could stop it

[@quibbles7468]

if only...

[@bullet3417]

It's also funny how l4d2 search can just put you into official valve and community servers so they just need to do the same for tf2

[@magical571]

yueah sure, let's split the community further

[@energeticyellow1637]

@@magical571 The community was split before matchmaking's inclusion and it was literally the game's golden age. Imagine being allowed to play tf2 however you want on whatever server you want. How does that not sound great?

[@CoolyCools]

hell no, i hate the fucking modded servers in l4d2

[@EdgieAlias]

I literally hate that about l4d2.

[@EdgieAlias]

​@@CoolyCools😢 what's the matter you want to play an actual game of versus instead of 32 survivor bots?

[@noname-vw5qw]

Bringing back quickplay would be ideal. But team scramble and map timers would go a long way

[@zenithzv]

Another lister banger

[@listertf2]

wtf is that the real zenith

[@wilburcobb8990]

return ad-hoc

[@sinaborji4648]

9:21 slavery was a thing for a long time yet we DID ban it after all that time, because it was the right thing to do. Also, valve has changed agent skins from CSGO in the past because they were blending in with the environment. Nobody got upset about it because it had to be done for the sake of a healthy game, I doubt people would be mad if the problematic cosmetics got reworked.

[@demoman5864]

I honestly hope the bot hosters have had a moment of reflection in this time without bots and have kicked the stool.

[@purple6012]

Nah bot hosters were aware they are awful racist dipshits wasting resources on an old game, Im glad they were banned.

[@_GhostMiner]

The F2P mute was the last straw for me to throw casual under the bus.

[@CrazyBoris06]

You say removing casual to readadd quickplay is bad because valve wouldnt change something because it was in the game for 8 years. Umm quickplay was in the game for 5 years when casual got added

[@TsarButterfly]

Using a cosmetic item that people paid money for as an example as to why Valve won't replace something that's free to use isn't a fair comparison. Valve didn't care that nobody asked for casual matchmaking when they forced it on the community, so they shouldn't care if a small portion of the playerbase is annoyed by it being reverted.

[@PYBR0]

good video, however you should have also brought up bringing back adhoc connections too. Maybe after those QoL changes though, people could push to bring adhoc back, along with a server browser list for valve servers.

[@jocyanide]

This needs to be shared everywhere.

[@doctormedic2682]

I listened to the UFR stream so I already knew what your thoughts were on the matter, but I agree. Even if you made the most perfect version of QP, no flaws whatsoever, people would just leave/complain because it’s different. This (your idea) really is the best solution and since I heard about this debate I’ve had a similar thought process. I’m not a QP glazer, but I do agree that if some of the good elements were added to casual, the player base as a whole would benefit. We need Causal x Quickplay hate-fuck baby! Great video sir lister

[@CookTF2]

I don't think a config change is enough. I 100% believe the matchmaking incorporated bunch of unnecessary scripting to make everything even more confusing. It took them 2 weeks to implement VSH on Casual when it worked right out of the box on community servers.They need to do a rollback and implement Casual functions to QP and not vice versa.

[@MechaMike]

Glad this video is out there, the quick play haters are probably people that weren’t even around when it was being used and always pull up the same excuses that you debunk here.

[@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257]

Community servers are DEAD WHY I don't like Vanilla community servers, I'm play community servers already make it as wacky as possible.

[@thehandyfamily806]

Just combine the good things about casual like map selection or not one or all gamemodes, and remove the bad the bad things about quickplay, and you have your perfect system

[@tim14022000]

Fun fact. Back then the only thing people were really asking for was for Valve to add something like a map selection for quickplay. Although you could already choose between maps that were available In hindsight it was probably for the best though that we didn't had a map selection because we would still have gotten people who would constantly leave just so that they can keep playing on a certain map. It kinda made all the maps played more evenly I guess

[@thehandyfamily806]

@@tim14022000 it would be nice though that it's not one gamode or all gamemodes like hoe you can have just 2 or 3 in casual. Like say you press play now and your like "aw its FUCKING 2FORT AGAIN"

[@AbadabaForever]

Quickplay wasn't perfect. But it was way better than the garbage Casual.

[@Boomrainbownuke9608]

i hate the casual system. im never playing the game again unless they get rid of it. i have the same opinion as all the people that left the game when it was first added. its shit. always been shit. it never fit the game at all. it can burn in hell!

[@DrWAHReal]

we got 2 things, bringing back quickplay, or improving casual, if valve wants to improve casual, they should do the following things: add team scramble, add ad-hoc connections, add server time, add back team selection and spectation, remove queing for casual, if valve wants to revert quickplay back, they can do it, but from their perspective that will be asking themself: 'why should we roll back a system from like 13 years ago' it seems unlikely but who knows

[@CoolSs]

100% 🍓 also it not new for Valve to remove and revert, *cough* CS2. they would not even needed to fix the bots to begin with if we had QP.

[@woofes8958]

This video is better explained than Gabber's two videos yapping about how "quickplay was a godsend to TF2" for more than hour and a half and insulting people who actually like playing casual. Replacing Casual entirely in favor of Quickplay would break so many things. Contracts, achievements, the old casual system that could be left in the files of TF2 for some dumb reason, etc. What I have heard, you couldn't choose what specific map you wanted to play on. You needed to play on a server that was available to play on that had players and was good for you. You couldn't choose what map you wanted to play on yourself, you had to go on what was given to you. I really like how Casual presents you with a menu to pick what map you want to play on. I don't care if I have to wait 3 hours just to play on a server with my favorite map that nobody wants to play on and isn't popular in the community. I rather have that option than having to wait days for a server to be on that map. I really like your suggestion on how to fix casual instead of completely replacing it. 11:13 this is what I want the solution to be for TF2, an easy copy & paste for the potted plant to do to casual and boom, no more crying babies. Even without all of this, quickplay people already have their cake. They have mastercomfig's quickplay system on their website and a mod which replaces the current main menu UI with what is was back in 2012 with quickplay. As always, correct me if I am wrong about any of what I said.

[@backstabbingscumbag6657]

You actually could choose what map you wanted to play on via ad hoc connections on the server browser. There was also an option on quickplay that allowed you to to show a list of available servers. Meanwhile with half the maps on casual will take an hour to load. "Replacing Casual entirely in favor of Quickplay would break so many things. Contracts, achievements, the old casual system that could be left in the files of TF2 for some dumb reason" can you explain this to me? contracts and achievements were a thing before casual.

[@atomicbrunch1279]

I've actually had a good experience with casual queueing lately. I don't know if valve reworked something in the queuing system around the same time that they got rid of the bots but my casual game search times are consistently under 10 seconds, sometimes as low as about 2 seconds. They should still revert pretty much everything else though.

[@raversbeware]

yeah, I've never ever had a problem with queue times, but casual so ass bro still behead that mg

[@energeticyellow1637]

The queue times are better on more populated maps but try to play on something like Payload Race or watergate.

[@kingkrool94]

try queueing for tc_hydro or pd_watergate, more obscure maps have me waiting for hours.

[@gaminginthelincolnyears]

​​@@energeticyellow1637 I dont know man, maybe its because of the region I live in, or maybe Im doing something wrong but the same thing happens when Im using the server browser. Tons of empty maps, maps with mods I want to try have like 4 or 5 people online out of 20, I cant really look anything up easily

[@energeticyellow1637]

@@gaminginthelincolnyears it's like that everywhere even in populated areas in the states. It's because MyM essentially killed the server browser and the only way to play the vanilla game now is through casual

[@Endiiii]

Remove? Absolutely not, simple changes like you’ve mentioned? Absolutely. All the revert would do is make an already ancient game ancieter, since most of the people who want it back are veterans, most casual players couldnt give less of a fuck and rightfully so. But to GIVE an inbetween however for that happen would be perfect, both parties can be satisfied. And also, the browser is really not good bud come on now. Other than good job on the vid! Been loving your improvement since the first evolution videos!

[@kingkrool94]

Casual should be at the bare minimum tweaked and preferably removed. It's a pain to use, and I spend forever finding a game I like. I've been using community servers because the experience is way better over there than in official casual.

[@GunKick]

9:00 this argument seems absurd since they don't seem to apply it to major map reworks. i bought 25 map stamps for both steel and cashworks before the major changes to the maps which i dislike compared to the earlier versions. guess i should've put my money into ugly cosmetics instead!

[@simplysmiley4670]

Wouldn't remove it myself, even if quickplay was better years ago, it did go to shit soon before meet your match and now there's no servers with anything vanilla and more maps then dustbowl, 2fort and hightower variations. Improving tho, that could be done. Queue times are fine for the most part, besides misc gamemodes, however joining servers is a coin toss if the round is ending immediately or not, would be nice if there was an option like with MvM to only join servers where match is starting.

[@magical571]

yep this, things were already changing.

[@tim14022000]

I'm sure if valve would make it easier again for community servers and supports them again like in quickplay that community servers would also come back again The problem with when they removed quickplay was also that the community servers weren't evenly filled anymore and when people use the server browser they will only see it in black and white aka "The server has players" and "The server has no players". because of the servers being either full or empty because players refused to join the empty once all the community servers to died out. no server browser changing will fix that, only something like quickplay could do it

[@simplysmiley4670]

@@tim14022000 There are problems with this. For one, Valve does not care *this* much for TF2 anymore, even CS is slowly getting same treatment, ya know, their e-sports child. They won't put in effort into this considering there is no point for them to do this. Secondly, yeah, community servers don't get filled up and the experience is black and white. But it isn't just because of lack of quickplay but also because of the browser sucking ass to use even to older players. It's not user friendly and half the time servers just, don't get shown on it for god knows what reason to individual players at random. There've been times where I would see players on same server network group, not realise there was same gamemode's server in a different region that would be better for them even when it had players because of the browser deciding to not show it to 'em. And third, news flash, TF2's old as hell, it's not a hot thing anymore, it's not 200k or 100k players but 30k at best (fuck botnets), why would anyone bother setting up servers for this game, especially vanilla ones, when valve already provides those.

[@jollydude1385]

I've been a f2p player for years and I still dont want to spend money on the game. But now that casual is better than community servers and I can't type in casual servers, I'm considering it. I wish I could just speak for free

[@tim14022000]

I wish valve would give free 2 plays the ability back to speak again. it clearly didn't do anything about the bot issue which will come back sooner than we think

[@pikukax11]

I think that after getting rid of the bots, the logical next step is to obviously fix the casual game mode for TF2. I am really happy to see this debate grow to relevancy again. However I believe that we need to convince Valve that TF2 is not, never was nor will ever be a competitive experience. This video is outstanding but people really need to start mentioning this. Trying to make TF2 more competitive not only killed the overall Casual experience but also certain (fun and dopamine inducing) weapons as a result (Sandman for example). TF2 is meant to be a hybrid where people can both have fun and "try-hard" in the same ecosystem! I would really love if the #fixtf2 team going to Valve HQ later this month could try to convince them of this. If we want to play competitively, we can use third party websites, like prior to 2016. VALVE needs to ACCEPT and UNDERSTAND that we don't really care about competitive (the one in game, that is). We just want to have fun like we did in 2012... I would really appreciate if you guys reading this comment could make people aware of this opinion and debate about it! Redditors and KZbinrs do your thing (free post/video idea right here)

[@pikukax11]

To elaborate I do not care if I get killed by a random crit, or that weapon spread if turned on, or if I get autobalanced, or even that I was stun-locked by a fucking ball projectile! As long as I can do it to! As long as I have fun! As long as I'm playing a fun game! Right now, TF2 casual has its silly moments but it's not fun. F2P are muted, Teams are not balanced at all, I can't spectate a potential closet cheater, I cannot change teams to help the 4 fresh-install spies! I can't use most weapons because most of them suck or are unreliable or unbalanced to accommodate a more competitive experience and worst of all I can't even record a fucking demo, you monsters!

[@E-Gaming-k1c]

I personally like the way casual is, I like the option to que up for maps that I love, where as in the quickplay era I had to pretty much gamble or look through the server browser, and I know casual has it's flaws but I love it. And one other reason is I can chose more then one gamemode unlike quickplay EDIT: I was thinking and I would think that casual and quickplay should both be added, casual could be fore people who like casual and quickplay could be fore people who like quickplay so we don't need to delete anything

[@TheKnifeRaven]

Nothing is quite like Casual TF2. Queue up, join a game within 5-10 seconds and get thrown into a server full of Gibusvision Spies, Hoovies and tryhards all screaming at each other in chat. Ahh, the sound of progress, my friend.

[@souperlueper]

casual is better in concept quickplay is better in execution, shrimple as.

[@FREELOO]

No more bots? No more mute.

[@grayling2]

love your recent videos talking about casual mode and quickplay

[@Anonymouthful]

Im so tired of joining a game thats either almost at its end with no way to win because the loosing team getting stomped has been bleeding players up to this point and Im just the latest addition to the pointless struggle. This keeps happening so many times in a row I sometimes I just dont play for the rest of the day.

[@schwunkie]

Another banger from Listerine

[@mikethemexicanpyroshark7757]

your videos remind me of times when i enjoyed the game the most. worth a sub just for that.

[@gazashotshell9099]

Machmaking has always sucked like it does in any game. I jumped back into tf2 recently and I can't tell you how many times I've been shoved into servers with 8 people (usually 3 on my team and 5 on the other because autobalance is a totally funcional system with no issues whatsoever) or I get put in games where the whole team is high rank masters who get to whup my ass for the next half hour because I pushed the cart for a full minute that one time. If that wasn't bad enough, I ALWAYS spawn in on the losing team seconds before the match ends. Half of my ques started with "YOU FAILED!!!" Which is just the best morale booster....

[@tim14022000]

I've installed a mod that replaces the booing with something else so it doesn't hurt my moral as much Also yes I agree with you that matchmaking always sucked like in every game

[@superdupper12]

I just started playing TF2 as of 2 months ago, and it's now in 2024. I last played in 2008-2009, and I feel the game is still incredible, what an amazing game!

[@Safonol]

the bot crisis isn't over, bots can come back at anytime. they just had their accounts deleted, that's all.

[@tim14022000]

Also it seems like those hosters are testing out a new version of their program that they used and some bots have already been spotted in casual from time to time. So yeah, as soon as they are done testing they will be back before we know it and it will just be as bad as before, if not worse

[@imacactus555]

All I asking for is 24/7 Powerhouse without that nasty constant re-queuing. AM I ASKING TOO MUCH VALVE?!

[@Eshyyyyy]

Completely reverting Casual to Quickplay would be a mistake yeah. But if it was just a part of the server browser I think that’d be neat.

[@flamingpaxtsc]

No, of course we shouldn’t. People enjoy playing it. Edit: you want quick play back? Okay, just make that an option for people without removing casual

[@W_Winters_99]

While we're all wishing here, it'd be nice to have replay enabled in pubs.

[@MrSlaughterrific]

I think gaming culture has changed a lot because of things like battle royales where people leave when they die or at the end of a round. People used to stay for the next and they don't do it anymore even when it would benefit them time wise (it currently doesn't but I'm not sure they would stay anyway). I really hate it

[@f1ux889]

Let's make Casual (Quickplay) great again! 🦅

[@MrSlaughterrific]

just make it more like quick play was. bring back scrambles to break up stacks. Anything to remove the re-que meta where people stomp a match and then leave

[@KnownOnlyAsDM]

I think you should be able to vote to scramble

[@TheFoxy2017]

2016: Let's Play this game 2024: I don't wanna play but bot sucks

[@dennis-wi8ve]

"Look at how they massacred my boy."

[@DelusionalDetective]

No. I’ve heard people in my region (Australia) say that quickplay was horrible and took them to servers that did not fit tf2 whatsoever with high ping and no players.

[@CoolSs]

or you could open the Quick Play server list to see the Valve server with the best ping for you. the lack of player agency is not worth it.

[@abdallatifalafandi2522]

>heard Ok so you didn't actually try it, you're just parroting youtubers opinion

[@CoolSs]

@@abdallatifalafandi2522 god, the anti Quickplay propaganda is unreal. i can't wait for the Zesty video.

[@kimmy620]

Literally the same comments as other 'experts'. You heard it, but never experienced it. Which quickplay? Pre 2014 or post 2014?

[@DelusionalDetective]

@@abdallatifalafandi2522only heard it from one Australian youtuber, heard it from many Australian players

[@me67galaxylife]

Short answer : yes Long asnwer : yes

[@monkepotato3897]

i am sure a certain calm individual named "gabber" would love to share his opinion on the situation.....

[@swan-cloud]

remove or improve, i just want quickplay's features back.

[@CoolSs]

I don't care if it's "impossible". why are we keep supporting the ideas it can't be done, but somehow when they added rushed matchmaking +8 years ago it was ok to kill a system that been improved over 4 years (that being Quickplay) We all thought the bots would never be fixed but here we are. don't forget that the bots are a byproduct of matchmaking. but i don't blame the contractor who was tasked to fix a mess he didn't make. THANKS JILL. #BringBackQuickplay #CommunityQoLRequests

[@dominikcz198]

Lister seems to forget that tf2's player count was not growing at all after Meet Your Match. It has remained completely stagnant, not to mention when how many free-to-plays see they have to pay to use the very basic features in the game that have already been free to use, there would be no friction whatsoever. And those players from the quickplay era that stayed here would not care.

[@tim14022000]

it seems like the bots are slowly coming back. They seem to test a new version of their programm and when the testing is done it'll only be a matter of time until the reappear in masses So yeah we were right. We all thought the bots would never be fixed and they weren't. So have fun with the shitty casual system while we still can #BringBackQuickplay

[@Suspiciouslocal]

Eric's answer was a disappointment,.

[@Aanderan]

it's cool that valve fixed the bots - but the superior solution that would've fixed everything has been here the whole time haha

[@neor2354]

You can't erase or delete, but you can still add Quickplay as an option, it either sending you to casual or a community server that fits your standart

[@minhkhoadang8236]

I have never tried Quickplay before since I played TF2 in mid-202, Casual is so imbalanced.

[@kielbasathief9576]

Being able to switch teams is a must! I hate being team swapped and then people join the team I was swapped to.

[@zoulcar9403]

I never expected lister to say "like the chad that i am" ever in my life. Edit: just tell the news outlets that tf2 has a big problem