SI Express is BACK! Jeep No Blower (16.1)

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

PHAD AMAZON STORE IS OPEN FOR BUSINESS! www.amazon.com/shop/pinehollowautodiagnostics AES Wave Terminal Test Kit: www.aeswave.com/uTest-Advanced-Terminal-Test-Kit-p9715.html

[@1atech]

Again, you don't need numbers to understand the concept.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Agreed. But numbers don't hurt!

[@1atech]

So... if you agree then, you have confirmed that I was correct and you will do the right thing. Right?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I agree that you don't need numbers to understand the concept, but I do not agree with your statement of "Excessive voltage drop on big bulb"...

[@1atech]

Why do you say my statement is incorrect?

[@tzvi-goldenberg]

The small lamp will light, and the larger one will not. I look at it this way, that the big lamp no longer has a minus good enough to turn it on (assuming the small lamp is closer to the minus). Follows you a lot, nice and good work, very much appreciated. From Israel.

[@AP9311]

Ivan, great warm up to staten island case studies!!! Guest appearance of Keith!!! TIPM!!! So classic symptom!!

[@lawsonthursfield6950]

Great video especially the little brain teaser at the regarding the two bulbs and resistance in the circuit... keep up the awesome work Guy 👍

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thank you for the feedback!

[@VoltageDropDiagnostics]

Another good one, although I wouldve loved to have seen you repair the tipm haha

[@billyyoder8171]

Thank you Ivan. Good job. Voltage drop. Good job. Have a blessed and safe week.

[@NewLevelAuto]

I love the comments section!!! THIS is what we need more of ! Oh and great job , but I told you that in person 😉

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

YES! Honestly I am surprised how many of the comments are about the test light circuit check lol! You hit the nail on the head there Keith...viewers love to think and learn right alongside us :)

[@andrescastro4836]

Ivan & Keith very glad to see your work. When I hear you wonder why someone designed a circuit or part in a strange way, it reminds me of what I read many years back. "Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal" Regards

[@DIYDaveOK]

Another TIPM! Yikes!! Tell Keith we need some videos from him!! Thanks as always!

[@NewLevelAuto]

🤔🤷‍♂️

[@eliransolomon6114]

The voltage drop across the the 5amp light is about 0.5 volt it gets 12 volt power side but on the "graund" side has approximately 11.5 volt thak u for the video great content

[@wyattoneable]

I always enjoy these case studies. Especially when they get interesting like this one.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Ah this was an easy warm-up Wyatt ;)

[@Paul1958R]

Ivan/Keith, Great video and study example. The total current thru the two bulbs is proportional to the resistance of the bulbs added together (series resistance). The 200ma bulb will have the higher resistance so the current will be limited mostly by that. The low current will be enough only to light the smaller bulb. I=V/R = V/(R1+R2). God bless Paul (in MA) ps did NOT read any other answers below

[@donnierobertson3088]

Nice job

[@baxrok2.]

Nice job guys! Interesting case study developing here. Only on the island will you see a Honda (?) sitting bumper to bumper up against a Vette 11:00. lol

[@eliransolomon6114]

All the available voltage is use to over come the source of resistance in circuit in proportion

[@abdulb7178]

Keep them coming👍🏻👍🏻

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Will do, Abdul!

[@jkbrown5496]

I was thrown off when you said "see now that one has went out" after disconnecting the battery because the little test light still appeared illuminated. Took a minute to realize the change in intensity and when off the little light was reflecting the under-dash light bulb. The 5 A light has only 1/20th the resistance of the little 250 mA light since at 12v it would pass 20 times the current if alone in the circuit. So for the equal current in a series circuit of the two bulbs, the lower resistance will only drop 1/20th the voltage, or 0.6v out of the 12v (not enough to make the filament incandescent.). Not explicitly mentioned in the video is that if there was a short in the wire, the 5 amp bulb would illuminate but the current would be limited to 5 amps.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Excellent analysis! Yeah I noticed the reflection of the under dash light on the test light making it appear still lit and calling me a liar haha

[@dalix1951]

Thanks JK Brown great explanation!

[@mikefoehr235]

I love the built in woodpecker. Judging by the sound...it is a pileated woodpecker.

[@mike_svt93]

Nah, pileated's are 18" long -- wouldn't fit behind dash. A downy maybe. :0

[@DaNiElLl430]

Used to have a pileated family behind my house in the woods. Extremely annoying but they are beautiful birds

[@HUBBABUBBADOOPYDOOP]

Jeeps should come with a roll of wire and a box of toggle switches for "future repairs".

[@mattbots1]

So, Wranglers and Gladiators have that as an option. Four buttons on the dash wired to cables under the hood for "future accessories." Though unfortunately I think they're module controlled because you can change how they behave (stay on, cycle with ignition, etc.) in the Uconnect menu settings.

[@rhkips]

Haha, I love when Keith shows up and does that famous "I know what's wrong" shuffle. Smug jer--I mean, awesome guy! LOL ;D Ah, good ol' VDO. Variably Doesn't Operate. Gotta love a Jeep! Just a matter of finding out which of the seven vertical bars we're diagnosing today. ;)

[@NewLevelAuto]

🤔😑🤣👍

[@jeffshearer5125]

Just a warm up huh, this is gonna get good.

[@caduceus33]

Ohm slaw: Electrician's salad on Staten Island?

[@staind288]

Only the lower amp filament is going to light up. There's less resistance and not enough power in the circuit to light the larger filament.

[@ggstephens50]

That’s right nailed it

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

"Not enough power in the circuit"...please be more specific :)

[@moincreemers6839]

​@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics The theoretical resistance of the 250mA bulb = V/I = 12/.25 = 48 Ohms. The 5A bulb's resistance is 2,4 Ohms. The voltage drop across the 250mA bulb will be 20x larger than the voltage drop over the 5A bulb. Thats about 11.4V for the 250mA bulb and about 0.6V. The sum has to be equal to battery voltage. So, 0.6V is not enough potential to light that bulb. You would think the battery has plenty of power to light both which is true but the load is limited by the smaller bulb.

[@DylanRabier]

@@moincreemers6839 well couldn't have explained it better 👍

[@steveorshon]

@@moincreemers6839 Perfect answer.

[@themechanic6117]

Love these videos! 👍💪

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

That was just a teaser :D

[@Namcon92]

The little test light limit the circuit to 250ma, so the big one's dosent have enough Amp to light? You keith and Eric o, are the best! We dont have many Jeeps in sweden :)

[@kevinbyrne4538]

Yup. Namcom92 wins a test light !

[@mikechiodetti6737]

The smaller bulb filament will light. The larger filament needs more current that can't pass through the smaller filament. That recirc motor is a pain to replace in my 06 Nissan Frontier. Been There Done That!

[@-DC-]

A Jeep with a electrical fault you say 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔, how unusual !!

[@matthewdale174]

The 200 milliamp test light has higher resistance once current flows and heats up the filament it drops all the voltage preventing enough current to flow and heat up the 5 amp test light. Little late

[@billziegmond4943]

Nacon92 beat me to the answer. Got to love the Staten Island Express. BTW Thanks again to Keith for the advice on the pcm programming. Maybe I'll make a video of it.

[@NewLevelAuto]

My pleasure as always Bill

[@SmittySmithsonite]

The infamous TIPM! Gotta love automotive engineering these days. What a joke! I'd be taking a hammer to that woodpecker in there, too - I couldn't imagine keeping my cool very long listening to that, while dealing with people on the road at the same time ... 😂 At the end, it looked like that white SUV was rammed right into that Corvette there!?! 😬🤭😲

[@jstutz101]

Nice diagnosis, I would love to see the actual repair...

[@rrmech11]

👍👍

[@carlschroeder3003]

The path of least resistance

[@weldingjunkie]

Nice job Ivan, my guess it it won’t light both test lights in series because it’s too much resistance. The 5a is prob too much as it was so the test light will never light. I could be wrong but that’s my guess lol

[@JBTaylor86]

Large test light 5A small 200mA......Roughly total circuit resistance is 65ohm. 12.5v/65=192mA just enough to light the smaller 💡

[@JoelAutomotiveInaction]

thaks you sir

[@randymarion2466]

My guess at the two test light question ... big light is 5A and on a 12V circuit that would mean 2. 4 ohms, little light is 200 mA so on a 12V circuit that would mean 60 ohms of resistance... If I recall correctly, current always looks for easiest path to ground, so that would seem to me to be the 5A circuit with only 2.4 ohms of resistance.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Remember the lights are connected in SERIES...there is only one path to ground :)

[@randymarion2466]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics - so, the resistance is also cumulative, but the 200 mA will throttle the circuit and not allow enough current to flow to light the 5A... I think

[@MedinaCliff]

You Da Man!

[@johnc4352]

I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but voltage does not go thru a load. Current goes thru a load, voltage is dropped across it. It might not seem important but it is. Think about how you connect a meter to measure voltage vs amperage. Find an electrical engineer and ask him. Next level stuff.

[@johnc4352]

Thanks Ivan. Your fans appreciate that you read and respond to many of our comments. 👍🏻

[@robinsonsmotorcycleandauto3929]

Get him keith lol. What kind of test light lmao.

[@jamesbruno5896]

Chrysler products SMH, nice video Ivan!

[@howdy3840]

In this 5 Amp & .25 Amp series circuit, the .25 Amp test light will light. After some Ohm's law math, you have about 0.24 Amp in this circuit which is enough to light .25 Amp test light but not enough for the 5 Amp one.

[@zx8401ztv]

I'm sure a fuse and relay could bypass the problem lol. Who said Bodge!! :)

[@mike_svt93]

I think another added hint would be current is constant in a series circuit. Therefore the filament with the higher resistance has the larger voltage drop and power dissipation and illuminates the brightest. Then again my mind is sometimes full of cobwebs :/

[@Graham_Wideman]

Good thinking

[@MrScrubs236]

Path of least resistance

[@avelezusmc7929]

Doesn't require as much power to light oppose to the higher amperage bulb that does require more

[@sopeponna3910]

path of least resistance

[@philh9238]

So you felt comfortable calling the tipm without checking all powers and grounds? I think Eric o had a video the tipm had a bad ground and caused issues 🤔well it is Staten Island though. Nice work on the old school chevy videos to

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Very valid point! Now I'm wondering what kind of smart electronics would control a constant B+ to the blower motor...

[@johnbreedlove21]

The small one requires list power to

[@benwingo6675]

The larger amp bulb will lite the smaller blub Will not because it is acting as a resitor.

[@chadgardee1496]

The smaller light

[@georgeshadrick640]

😎

[@chrisclayton5349]

I ask the same thing every day with newer cars. Seen so many with non serviceable relays. 🙄 They do it because how can they sell you a module when all you need is a fuse or a relay? lol

[@NoWr2Run]

YES, A JEEP, This will be an easy one for " PHAD " like taking candy away from a baby. AND A 1 AND AH 2 LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[@kostelectronics]

Why not crack open the TIPM and search the fault. I'm pretty sure that it's only a bad transistor.

[@johnames6430]

Is TIPM the equivalent of BCM on GM cars?

[@KevinWindsor1971]

The TIPM is the main power distribution center of Chrysler family of vehicles.

[@danielradcliff7081]

Bad woodpecker

[@Airman..]

The lower resistance incadesnt lights will light up

[@Graham_Wideman]

Actually, with two lamps in series, if only one lights, then it's it's the higher resistance one.

[@Airman..]

@@Graham_Wideman yes sir the 250mA bulb indeed have a higher resistance of 50ohm and it shall produce full work @3.5w The other bulb have a resistance of 2.5ohm and it shall not lit up at all

[@SawmillerSmith]

Looks as though a few repairs could end up costing more than the jeep is worth

[@repairitdontreplaceit]

small lamp will light

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Sure...but WHY?

[@repairitdontreplaceit]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics the small lamp has much higher resistance and will have a higher voltage drop across it . the current will be the same through both lamps so power = current x voltage

[@mansonmydog]

It's a Jeep thing...

[@Nudnik1]

" Heep"=(FIAT) = fix again Tony... Actually Fiat old 128 excellent though.

[@plastic1492]

what was Chrysler thinking what was wrong with the good old fuse box

[@Blazer02LS]

Mercedes influence

[@randy1ization]

ohms law.,.. electricity will always use the path of least resistance.. the bulb has no idea what voltage is going thru it, but it knows amperage. you can run a 12 volt bulb on 6 volts. it will just be dimmer.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Actually the bulb doesn't know anything haha

[@randy1ization]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics my nissan frontier does that woodpecker thing, but slower.. kind of funny when we pick up a friend and it starts pecking .. it doesnt seem to affect the operation, so I havent investigated it yet.

[@larrystephens7437]

Time is money... Dang it... No what would a Russian do...

[@1atech]

Excessive voltage drop on big bulb. Do I win the test light?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Only if you explain your theory with some hard numbers ;)

[@1atech]

I said the same thing as "The Winner" except i didn't know the spec of the test light. You never stated numbers were required in the explanation (quanitative). I used qualitative logic.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Well...why is there excessive voltage drop on the big bulb? Everyone's a winner :D

[@1atech]

It's being used up by the test light.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Draw a circuit and apply Ohm's law...it will make more sense

[@johnditch6357]

yeah i'd just hard wire everything, but carry insurance for when it becomes a Ferrari and burns.

[@throttlebottle5906]

junkyard or burn or on an exec's front lawn :))))

[@HouseCallAutoRepair]

Love the spare tire cover!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thank you :)

[@roberthogue6797]

There is only 250mV going through the 5 amp bulb. Not enough to light it.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Yup. What about the voltage drop across each light? Assume battery is at 12.0V.

[@roberthogue6797]

Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics It’d be 6v each, right?

[@tonysova4687]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics 11.43 0.57

[@Graham_Wideman]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics If the lamp resistances were constant, then the voltage drops would be inversely proportional to nominal lamp current, so 12V x 20/21 = 11.43V across the 250mA lamp. However, lamp resistance is not constant-- it's significantly less when cold. So we would expect almost the entire 12V across the 250mA lamp.

[@kthwkr]

R=V/I; 12V/200mA = 60ohms R=V/I; 12V/5A = 2.4ohms 2.4 60 12V----\/\/\/-----\/\/\/----gnd (So solving this using nodal analysis. - just kidding. But we could ;-) Use Voltage divider ==> 12V * 60/(2.4+60) = 11.5V across the 200mA bulb. So the 200mA bulb would get 11.5V and the 5A bulb would only get 0.5V which is not enough to turn it on. However, it's worse than that when you consider that the bulb resistances I calculated are the operating resistances when the filament is white hot. When the filament is cold the resistance is much lower. In fact plum near zero. So there is even less voltage across the 5A bulb. Therefore, the 200mA bulb pretty much gets the whole 12V. While the 5A bulb is sitting there saying, "200ma? That doesn't even tickle. I'm not glowing for that." Some car manufacturers use the cold filament low resistance characteristic of incandescent bulbs as a way to check if a bulb is burned out. They trickle a small current through the bulb and if the current gets through then they can sense that the bulb is good. And they can do this tiny trickle current all the time even when the car is off and parked in your garage because the total battery drain of the trickle current for all the bulbs is not enough to run the battery down for months and months and months. However, then the car manufacturers come along and say to their OEM vendors, "We want LEDs instead of incandescent bulbs so the customer will think we are cool and neat and green." So us vendors put in LEDs. But the car manufacturers have not changed their computer nor the trickle current test. So the trickle is still fed to the LEDs creating two problems. The voltage drop across the LED is about 2V while a cold incandescent filament would only have a few millivolts. So their computer thinks the bulb is burned out when it's not. It's just the normal PN voltage of an LED. But now here is the funniest thing. The trickle current also just barely lights up the LED. So the car parked in your dark garage is just barely glowing from every light fixture all night long. And the customer notices this and freaks(not appreciating the car as a two ton garage night light) and takes it back to the dealer complaining the battery is going to run dead. And the dealer has to call back to the home company to get an engineer to 'splain to him that it's only the trickle current that has always been there but the incandescent bulbs did not glow while the LEDs do. So the engineer at the OEM vendor figures out that if you just put a resistor of a specific value(not revealed here) around the LED circuit you can emulate the cold filament of an incandescent bulb well enough to fool the computer that the bulb is still OK and not set off a bunch of burned out light bulb alarms. AND the trickle current is shunted through the resistor and the LEDs won't glow either. But that engineer wants a patent for his idea. I mean after all - he though of it. Well, I did and they didn't! But the car manufacturers fight it, use the resistor idea anyway, and before the engineer gets a nickle they change their computers to deal with LEDs which is what they should have done in the first place if they had bothered to understand that there is a difference between LEDs and incandescents. "Why? They both glow. Don't they operate the same way?" "NO! -- they don't! Sheesh." SMH

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

haha sounds about right! Except doesn't a diode need at least 0.6V to pass any current? Also pretty sure the car is supposed to be asleep at night and not checking itself for burned bulbs :D

[@kthwkr]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Actually a simple diode(IN4007) will pass current at much less than 0.6V. It's just that there is a considerable step increase at 0.6V. And as you drive more current the drop can get up to 1V. The current below 0.6V will be in micro or nano amps. LEDs are more squishy about that step(knee of the curve). White LEDs(which are really blue LEDs with a yellow phosphor dot on the lens) are quite squishy. You can drive one and get considerable light at 2.5V to very bright at 3.5V and you can even push it to 4V and get blinding output but you better have it well heat sinked or else it's life span is short. But at 2V it still glows slightly. This varies between brands and models of LEDs. Beware too that Zeners are not absolute. A 5.1 zener has a strong knee at 5.1V but it's not like it's a 90 degree bend in the graph. If you are using a 5.1 zener as a voltage reference then you need to control the current to a specific amount with an accurate constant current source. If you use a 5.1 zener to protect a 3.3V line from overvoltage you need to be sure there is going to be enough current on that line to overcome the leakage of the zener at 3.3V or else all your digital signals get pulled down. But of course the worse thing is the zener's capacitance which will completely destroy a 100MHz signal. Also, the car is still awake enough to draw some current through the computer in a standby mode. About 50mA or less. (They try to make it lower every year) It monitors it's interrupt inputs. When you open the door the light switch pulls down an interrupt line, the computer wakes up, it takes an inventory and determines the door is open, it checks the trickle current to see if the bulb is healthy and records the results, and finally it turns on the transistor to supply current to the door light. All of that happens in a few milli or even micro seconds. The bulb trickle current is left on all the time because it would require numerous transistors to turn it off for each bulb circuit. The computer is not checking the bulbs when it's asleep but it's just too much unnecessary circuitry to turn off all those trickle currents when they are so small they don't matter. When you open the door as I described above, in an instant all the trickle currents can be inventoried and the results ready to display when the car is next turned on.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Interesting point on parasitic "standby" draws on modern cars. I have an aftermarket power inverter in my truck, and had a dead battery if it sat for more than a week. Turns out that thing had a parasitic draw of 30mA! When a car is fully asleep the draw shouldn't be more than maybe a few mA.

[@kthwkr]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Car battery is rated about 50AH(AmpHour). Which means you can draw about 20AH from it and it will still start the car. Let do some math. Divide 20AH over a week. week=7*24Hr/day = 168 Hrs. 20AH/168Hrs = 120mA. Which means you can draw 120mA from a healthy new car battery for a week and it should still start the car with the remaining 30AH. Unless it's Eurotrash or something. Also, 50AH/50mA = 1000hrs, 1000hrs/24=42 days. So at 50mA parasitic the battery will be slap dead in a month and a half. If you go to the airport and have to park your car in long term parking because you're gone for a couple months, open the hood and disconnect the battery. You'll have to unlock the car the old fashioned way. (My Mother called me up stranded because her key fob was dead. I told her to use the key. Boy was she embarrassed.) Now one thing to consider is the AH of a battery can drop a lot in cold weather. I have experience with a Volt. (Oh God do I have experience with a Volt. We had to make our equipment work in one so GM supplied us one as a test platform for a couple years.) It's rated at a certain number of miles on a full charge. But in Detroit winter that distance dropped to less than half. It went about 13 miles before the gas engine kicked in. Plus lead acid car batteries are very unhealthy after 3 or 4 years. BUT if you ever run the battery dead. You need to charge it immediately. Immediately!! Run a car battery dead and leave it for a month and it's ready for the trash. Marine batteries are deep discharge batteries and they can be run dead when you get back from your boating excursion. But car batteries get very injured if they are run dead just once. If you have a car battery sitting on your shelf. Hook a charger on a lamp timer to charge it for 30 min every week or day. BTW, having to replace that TIPM just for the heater blower is just another argument against that whole device. But I really loved your video where you diagnosed what was broken in the TIPM and so you built the same circuit with a relay external to the TIPM and just disconnected that signal from the TIPM. That was brilliant. It takes a good understanding of the internals of the TIPM to do that. BTW there will be a quiz tomorrow on everything I have taught you today in Electronic Engineering class. :) I used to love surprise pop quizzes. I wish I was younger. You and Eric O have taught me so much that I could almost go back to repairing my own cars like I did in my much younger days. I can open up the hood now and I know what most everything is. But I'm going to the Honda dealer in a few weeks to buy what I figure will be my last car.

[@johnditch6357]

oh I thought it was the blower for the engine those should be turbo so they can die quicker.

[@themainguy5050]

Most Chrysler products and Dodges are always needing new tipm. That's what happens when you integrate too many things. Old school is so much better.

[@VWWRENCHIE]

Is there anything WORSE than Chrysler electrics?...maybe going to the dentist...no..no.. Chrysler still causes more pains...😎

[@Garth2011]

Typical Fiat engineering...the 5 amp bulb filament is heavier than the 250ma filament so my guess is the 5 amp will simply be a pathway to light the 250 ma.

[@richscruggs2858]

pretty sure if tipm is new just turn the key on for 15 seconds ,it programs it self

[@jcmobilediagnostics8611]

The first test light in series doesn’t have a path to ground and basically acts as a jumper wire.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

What if I reversed the positions of the lights? (B+ to small 200ma to big 5A to ground)?

[@NewLevelAuto]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics 🤩👍

[@jcmobilediagnostics8611]

The resistance (load) of the 5A wouldn’t be able to light due to lack of current that the 200ma light would provide. Correct?

[@unclemarksdiyauto]

Darn TIPM! Wonder who else will start using this dumb electronic piece of nonsense!

[@michaelweatherhead9470]

Jeep Chrysler dodge junk over engineering.

[@tiredoldmechanic1791]

Junk Every Electrical Part JEEP

[@adamtrombino106]

The Tipm could possibly be the worst thing to ever have happened to Chrysler..

[@robertbrandywine]

I don't watch SMA because of all the interruptions from his wife, daughter, the phone, the doorbell, etc. Please don't become him.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

lol that's real life!

[@chriskystoneadventures]

👍👍