Some Words from Proto-Germanic to Old English

[@colmdawson7018]

As a Spanish speaker I'm struck by the similarity between /'xɑɸrɑz/ and 'cabra' (goat)!

[@DanielDavis1973]

They probably both descend from proto-indo-european "kapros"

[@YIIMM]

Obviously it's no coincidence. If you check ABAlphabeta's video on animal names in Proto-Indo-European you'll be able to audibly squint half the names into both Romance and Germanic descendants.

[@erikz1337]

Is any germanic language still using a decendant of this word?

[@YIIMM]

@@erikz1337 How do you say "oats" in Swedish?

[@zzz23523]

@@erikz1337 No seems like we all switched to a variation of goat. Dutch geit, German Geiß, English goat, Danish ged, Icelandic geit, Swedish get.

[@tobybartels8426]

You say that ‘xaɸraz’ didn't survive in Modern English, but it has survived in Scots, where it means ‹oats› (a secondary meaning that goes back to proto-Germanic). And it appears there as ‘haver’, just as you predicted!

[@samuelbarham8483]

I think we suspect that *that* instance of haver is actually the reflex of a borrowing from Old Norse -- the cognate "hafri." Because OE doesn't seem to have this word at all.

[@tobybartels8426]

@@samuelbarham8483 : Yes, you're right.

[@jangtheconqueror]

@@samuelbarham8483 Pretty interesting how it entered from another cousin language and still ended up appearing as it should

[@footonearthchris8028]

In modern Dutch the word for Oats is Haver

[@AngelBrown-jq1sp]

​@@tobybartels8426 1:03

[@mihanich]

While Proto-Germanic somehow had a word for "monkey", Proto-Slavic had a word for "elephant" ("slon"). This word traveled to Proto-Slavic all the way from Old Chinese through several intermediate languages (most likely borrowed from Turkic)

[@okaro6595]

Finnish has a word for elephant Norsu. It is a loan from the Sami language. There it meant a walrus which is mursu in Finnish - the same or similar origin. Both animals were only known for ivory.

[@keizan5132]

Proto-germanic "xafraz" is really similar to modern Spanish "cabra", which bears the same meaning. Fascinating.

[@unraed]

Just a cognate. From latin caper. And in that word we clearly can see the Grimm's law Indo European c shifts to germanic h, and IE p moves to b.

[@Leo-uu8du]

Austro-Bavarian "håbr" or "håbar". The 2nd Germanic Consonant Shift makes it seem closer to Latin again.

[@ratatoskr1069]

In the end all European languages stem from the same root. All dominant ones at least: romanic, germanic, greek, slavic etc. with the exception of the finno-ugric and some other ones. That capra sounds like proto-germanic is not surprising at all.

[@tunistick8044]

and hɛjvə is?

[@UFCMania155]

They all have roots in Indo-European

[@SkylersRants]

I have read a book entitled, "Old English and its Closest Relatives; A Survey of the Earliest Germanic Languages." It's a brilliant book that explains the grammar and structure of each language, Old English, Old Gothic, Old Norse, Middle Frisian (no examples of Old Frisian apparently), Old Frankish, and maybe I'm missing one or two on this list. What makes it interesting is how it introduces the language with an example of a Bible Story, the story of the sower and the seed, and gives you hints how to read it in the margin, usually with modern German examples. It encourages you to work through it rather than gloss over it. It's really well done, I think. Written by Orrin W. Robinson, 1992, Stanford University Press.

[@BrazenDirigibles]

i have "a comparative grammar of the early germanic languages" by rd fulk, i wonder if i should get that one as well. does it cover syntax at all or is it just declensions and conjugations?

[@SkylersRants]

@@BrazenDirigibles It covers declensions and conjugations, not sure of syntax. It's not an in depth look, you won't become an expert with any of the languages with it. It's a chapter on each language, so it's a nice "survey" for someone who wants to be exposed to the languages.

[@joshadams8761]

Strong recommend for that book.

[@zooblestyx]

8:28 Interesting to learn that the way "goose" (gås) is pronounced in modern Swedish dates back a millennium and a half. Fascinating how some words get twisted and warped, while others just sail through time unchanged.

[@erikz1337]

Also "apa" is pronounced very similar to some of the older forms.

[@BurnBird1]

It did change. This is evolution of English, not Swedish. Just because a stage of its development looks like modern Swedish doesn't mean there is a connection.

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

That's anglo-frisian it's not ancestral to Swedish. Swedish started with the same proto-Germanic word but took it's own path to get to the modern pronunciation.

[@zooblestyx]

Looks like I learned something today as well.

[@Utgardaloki76]

The Standard Swedish word "gås" [go:s] is not considered to be that old pronunciation wise from a Scandinavian linguistic perspective. In the Elfdalian dialect/language in Sweden how ever the word is "gǫs" and it is still pronounced [gõ:s̠] with the vowel nasilized and the s-sound retracted. That is truly old. But it is still not even Old Norse which seems to have been [gɔ̃:s̠/gã:s̠]. Even older from a Proto-Germanic form perspective is the equivalent German word "gans". This "gans" might correspond to one and a half millennium old being not very far removed from the Proto-Germanic original *gans [ɤans̠/ɤɑns̠] though that original state seems to have had a fricative /g/ and, like Elfdalian and Icelandic, a retracted /s/. So in short even though the word "gås" has some archaic aspects to it from an English point of view it doesn't reflect either archaic Old English or Scandinavian pronunciation from one and a half millennium ago. Elfdalian "gǫs" is how ever very close to very archaic Old English pronunciation from close to one and a half millennium ago. But at that time it might still actually have been *gās [gɑ̃:s̠] or even *gans [ɤɑns̠/gɑns̠] in Old English.

[@spooderman9122]

These reconstructing videos are always great

[@Liamneedham29]

Discovered in the Navan Fort in Ireland was the skull of a Barbary Monkey. The thought was that the royalty/nobility traded it and kept it as a luxury pet. So its really not that unlikely that the germanic realms knew of monkeys. Trade into Scandinavia was surprisingly common despite how far removed they were. I believe the early medieval scandinavian kingdoms managed to accrue a large amount of islamic gold, which kept them some of the richest kingdoms in europe for a while, helped by the fact that they were rarely invaded, themselves doing the raiding.

[@tuasucks]

Beat me to it! But you did a much better job explaining it that I would've haha

[@SporeMurph]

I believe there was also a Barbary Macaque skeleton found in a Bronze Age tomb in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains. So indeed exotic pets were being imported from at least as far away as North Africa. If they could get to Ireland, they could probably get to Scandinavia too.

[@chadwick8193]

There is a Minoan mural in Akrotiri, a bronze aged settlement, which has a mural with some monkies. If I remember correctly, there is a few examples of monkies in art in Minoan art. Probably got them through trade.

[@electrictroy2010]

Vikings aren’t relevant in 100 BC when “ape” was part of Germanic language. Their raiding dominance came almost a thousand years later

[@jacobwarmack8751]

True, but that’s way farther in the future and at the time proto Germanic was spoken there were no Germanic speakers in Ireland. Trade was definitely happening, but this specific example is not demonstrating that trade

[@carlstein9278]

Pretty funky how the old English from 400 AD (around the 8:30 mark) before the palatalisation is pretty much identical to my local dialect of German. and i mean nasty level of drunken grandpa dialect not just regiolect.

[@Zeutomehr]

where are you from?

[@carlstein9278]

@@Zeutomehr A place called Gummersbach some 60km south of cologne

[@michaelsteve5922]

Thank you very much for this breakdown of so many word forms at once. No apologies needed for "gaps" in presentations. Sometimes current affairs of life intervene. It happens to all of us, even followers of your videos.

[@hdoddema]

I spent half the video wondering why /ˈɸuɣlɑz/ wasn't turning into Dutch "vogel", forgetting for a moment you were evolving into the English "fowl" (I think). Funny how that works, and actually a very intuitive example of how our languages are related. Random thoughts: - This proves once again how completely arbitrary (English) spelling is. I suppose there are people who also study the evolution of spelling? - I'm suddenly wondering where all the other languages at the time of Proto-Germanic went.. if the origins of Proto-Germanic are somewhat localized to Scandinavia (?), what happened to whatever langauges "we" in the other regions were speaking at that time? Is that a dumb question? Do we know *why* PIE/Proto-Germanic was able to spread so widely, and is that common for other "proto" languages? - Are there more words like the Proto-Germanic ape, where we are surprised that the proto-language had a word for it?

[@stevelknievel4183]

I don't know why Proto-Germanic spread so widely but I do know that Proto-Austronesian spread much further. Its descendant languages include Malagasy, Maori and Hawai'ian! To be fair though its speakers just hit upon the trick of 'sail until you hit something'!

[@robinpayne125]

English spelling isn't really arbitrary, it's more fossilised. If you take the words as they are in mid to late Middle English period (around 12:50 in the video), that's the point at which many of the spelling conventions we have today stopped following the phonetic changes in the language. Obviously there are more recent additions to the vocabulary, and a few oddities in spelling that changed since, but at its core, the odd spelling of English is because all the rest of the changes after this point didn't get incorporated into the writing system.

[@bendthebow]

I believe Proto Germanic and PIE would have been surrounded by dialects not dissimilar to them. Sharing some of their innovations. I think the PIE people are associated with the technology of wheel and horse

[@BurnBird1]

@@stevelknievel4183 well they settled uninhabited islands mostly, so it's no surprises the language spread

[@mikespearwood3914]

@@stevelknievel4183 Gee, some must've got bloody cold getting close/reaching Antarctica!

[@Zederok]

Simon I would love to see you do a series like this with new words going through the changes up to modern times. This video was fascinating and amazing, thank you!

[@matejkurray1367]

These are some of the most interesting videos on this whole site for me, I've always been interested in the evolution of language and discovering your channel was like a little miracle for me, all because you're able to present your information so that it is very easy to understand without making it any less interesting. Keep up the great work!

[@IndigoSpades]

I feel the same. Fantastic work Simon, well done and well enjoyed. 🇨🇦

[@stevelknievel4183]

'As the inflectional system of Middle English declines slowly...' Was that an intentional pun?

[@cogitoergosum9069]

I didn't even pick up on that one 🤣

[@tylere.8436]

That was so - clever. Anyone else would never have gotten the pun. 😛

[@tentothepowerof10]

Wait....

[@yes_head]

Fun video, Simon! If you ever need one in a short time frame just crank out another one of these. Cheers!

[@unraed]

great as usual! very interesting way of presenting such linguistics things like phonetical changes greetings from Kazakhstan!)

[@thejibberjabberwookiee8604]

Good old Queen Mick

[@LucasBent]

Various cities in the US and UK have the name "Haverhill," with the vowel in the first part corresponding to the reconstructed "haver" (at least in my dialect). Apparently this place name does go back to Old English, and does indeed come from that word.

[@wezzuh2482]

This was very cool, Simon. It would be cool to see more videos like this one.

[@Fatelovesirony960]

Protect this man at all costs

[@nicholaslemosdecarvalho5328]

Absolutely magical! Thanks for the video!

[@Dstew57A]

Fantastic video

[@Ssarevok]

That top word comes suspiciously close to the Dutch word "haver" meaning oat. Also: it was originally pretty close to goat, I'm surprised it didn't end up there...

[@d.l.7416]

haver comes from proto germanic habrô, which means goat or goat feed (oats) which is why its close to habraz/hafraz. i can't type ipa but the only difference is the az and the ô.

[@mytube001]

@@d.l.7416 "Havre" /'ha:'vrə/ is oat in Swedish.

[@zooblestyx]

Also, "haver" is an archaic singular present tense form of the Swedish word for "have". Makes me curious to know if both words happened to meander into similarity, or if there's a connection. 🤔

[@mytube001]

@@zooblestyx No relationship at all.

[@Valerio_the_wandering_sprite]

@@zooblestyx Nope, it's ultimately a cognate of Latin "capio", the ancestor of English "to capture".

[@SolarLingua]

These kind of videos are really interesting and I would love to see more of them :)

[@joshadams8761]

The goat word is indeed related to, if not the ancestor of, English/Scots “haver”. See etymology 2 of English “haver” in Wiktionary.

[@fem-ho]

In catalan we have haveria which means beast for farming tasks. See IEC dictionary in Catalan

[@williamschlich8389]

It's in the proclaimers' "500 Miles" right?

[@RandomNonsense1985]

@@williamschlich8389 And when I haver...

[@brittakriep2938]

In Standard German goat is Ziege, but in dialects Geis, Gais, Gois appear.

[@Copyright_Infringement]

Great summary! Nitpicks near the end: It was my understanding that /aj/>/ɛj/ had no intermediary step of smoothing the vowel (hence why some accents distinguish made/maid but not vain/vein). Instead, it was merely that breaking former /ɛː/ into [ɛj] was itself another merger with preexisting /ɛj/ You seem to have miswritten mice /məjs/ as /mejs/, which you then pronounce as [mejs]. I know this was probably just a typo during the scriptwriting process, but it makes the next change to [mɑjs] a lot harder to justify. Overall great video as usual

[@GraemeMarkNI]

"Haver" is a word, but with a completely different meaning... 'Borrowed from Scots haver, from Middle English haver, from Old Norse hafri (“oat, oats”), from Proto-Germanic *habrô (“oat, oats”), from Proto-Indo-European *kapro- (“goat”). Cognate with Dutch haver (“oats”), cognate with German Hafer (“oat”).' It's hard to see how one meaning got to the other, but I'm reminded of phrases like "word salad," which you could imagine people shortening to just "salad"--"she was talking absolute salad." That might eventually be verbed--"oh he's just salading ignore him."

[@electrictroy2010]

Goats eat oats, so the words are related

[@MrBalrogos]

And polish dialect hawerfloki/haferfloki(depends on region one is silesia one is from city of poznań) which is an oat or oats with water or milk :)

[@philroberts7238]

@@electrictroy2010 Mares eat oats. And does eat oats. And little lambs eat ivy. A kid'll eat ivy too. Wouldn't you? Apologies, I was just havering!

[@andlabs]

11:14 "...so now you have one moose and many meese..." =P

[@danieltobiasjohansenlangho914]

Old Norse and Norwegian (Nynorsk spelling, dialectal pronunciation) *habrô < hafri < havre /²hɑʋrə/ ‘oat’ *fuglaz < fugl < fugl /¹fʉgːəl/ ‘bird’ *dōną < Middle Low German dōn < do-hus (?) < do /duː/ ‘toilet’ *gans < gás < gås /ɡɔːs/ ‘goose’ *mūs < mús < mus /mʉːs/ ‘mouse’ *mūsiz < mýs < mus, myser /mʉːs/ ‘mice’ *dagaz < dagr < dag /dɑːg/ ‘day’ *apô < api < ape /²ɑːpʰə/ ‘ape, monkey’

[@jctothel]

Would you ever consider doing a video about the origins of swear words?

[@cogitoergosum9069]

Oh my god. That would be so cool!!!

[@adolfoalbornoz3730]

Simon has one, however I don't have the link, just find out

[@TamelaVilla]

Here u go man, dived in deep for you. enjoy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4PKeJqrhtGEZtk

[@tylere.8436]

When swear words were actually swear words, swearing to deities, not just overly vulgar empathic words

[@electrictroy2010]

Oh pluck you Frenchman archer

[@samapriyabasu7887]

Since this is a video about Germanic, might be worth mentioning that Saterland Frisian (Northern Germany) has a three-way length contrast for its high vowels. (Of course, this is a later secondary development, nothing to do with the Proto-Germanic overlong.)

[@sskpsp]

Simon, have you explored Old/Middle English kinship terminology? In modern English, we have very few analytic terms and must resort to lengthy explanations eg. "second cousin on my mother's side twice removed" which can be annoying for someone from a culture where the distinction matters (like myself). I have a pet project where I am filling out Anglish extended family trees with words that did not survive the transition to modern English but were present earlier in the language history. For example, OE mōdriġe -> ME modrie/moddri -> Anglish moddry to mean maternal aunt. However, I have a few holes in the list still, and I'd love to coin the Anglish term myself but am not familiar with the sound changes to do so. Any thoughts?

[@electrictroy2010]

I’m glad those words expired. I don’t care if my aunt is maternal or paternal. She’s just some old woman that barely related to me & I only see once a year

[@sskpsp]

@@electrictroy2010 sorry to hear that

[@1258-Eckhart]

Do you have "eame", meaning uncle? It made it as a dialect word into modern English, Dr. Johnson writes (in his Dictionary): "uncle: a word still used in the wilder parts aof Staffordshire." Its (also no longer current) cognate German equivalent is "Oheim" (we now use "Onkel").

[@sskpsp]

@@1258-Eckhart yes I came across eame but didn't know about the information you mention. Thanks for the info! That is very interesting to see some survival, even if rare

[@mondopinion3777]

Thank you for this ! I was born on a homesteaded Kansas farm in 1941, and my family were English, Irish and Scottish. In the evening my grandfather brought the milk cows in from pasture with a loud call that had been passed down through the generations. It sounded like "cum bas" with a slightly shifted pronunciation of the vowels.

[@toade1583]

Maybe he was speaking in Gaelic or partial gaelic

[@RatSlapper]

Thank you, this video is very interesting

[@HarappanEnigma2024]

👍 Commendable work, the human anatomy and relation to tongue position is notable

[@koomaj]

In finnish there are some instances where extra long vowel occurs. For example "vaa'ankieli". Last "a" is part of different syllable, so maybe it is different than estonian?

[@KapteeniCarlos]

I think that's a long "aa" followed by a slight glottal stop and a short "a" making them separate sounds. At least it sounds and feels weird to me saying that as a single overlong "aaa"-sound.

[@koomaj]

@@KapteeniCarlos I agree with you. When speaking fast it can become kind of a long aaa, but normally there is that small stop.

[@ribdakse3970]

Older Finnish used to have the ɣ-sound which was still used in Agricola's time. Agricola represented it as "gh". So "vaa'an" back then would have been like "vaaɣan". Later it was lost and that is also where pairs like puku~puvun come from, the old form would have been "puɣun".

[@ribdakse3970]

So it was lost, just like ð, which changed into r or l, or got lost entirely (but like "puvun", a V, H or J sound appears to prevent the vowels from merging), standard Finnish has d in its place for weird reasons even though no dialect uses it there (paita~paiðan - modern standard paita~paidan). And I pronounce words like "syödä, saada, meidän" as "syyvvä, soaha, meijjän". (I even say words like "taide" as "taije" which my friends don't seem to like all that much).

[@koomaj]

@@ribdakse3970 Thank you for the explanation. I also avoid "d" as best as I can, and even "t" is in many instances avoided - "saatko = saakko, ajatko = ajakko".

[@Oxmustube]

The distinction between short and long vowels still exists in french, although disappearing in metropolitan french. It is however very much in use in Canada. Pâte/patte, maître/mettre, etc.

[@tylere.8436]

Isn't the ^ sign a result of deleting Latin s in those words? Those two words came from pasta and magister respectively, did the french words lengthen the vowels there to compensate?

[@Astro-Markus]

Again interesting to see similarities in the pronunciation when turning to German dialects. [a:p] is the word in my regional dialect for ape or monkey. Many words with "g" retained the [ɣ], like in [daɣ]. And the equivalent to "mouse" is pronounced [mu:s]. Could it be that many shifts happened not only in Britain?

[@slashtiger1]

_Aap_ [a:p] is also the Dutch word word for ape/monkey. Also, @12:45 : "haver" is the _exact_ present-day pronunciation for the word meaning _oat(s) in Dutch, i.e. haver. And also, @12:55 we hear the word at the beginning of this comment as presently pronounced in Dutch.

[@kyoya575]

@@slashtiger1 its becoming more and more clear that dutch is perhaps the west germanic language that went trough the least pronounciation shifts from proto west germanic

[@trafo60]

It's the other way around - those examples you cited are the older forms, so your dialect is conserving those features. Though interestingly, some changes did happen in English, Dutch and German independently of each other.

[@Astro-Markus]

@@trafo60 Yes, I was referring to the shifts that led to those pronunciations.

[@ah795u]

Yes these are shifts that happened in the history of english. Thats why german still has dag and ganz whilst in english these are day and goose

[@mr.flibblessumeriantransla5417]

Is it possible that the Scots verb “haver/haiver” meaning “to talk nonsense, babble, gossip, saunter” could be related to “hafra”? It seems like a stretch, and is unlikely to be related, but since the etymology of “haiver” is unclear, it makes for interesting food for thought: as in, “to babble or talk nonsense like the bleating of goats.” ~Again, I would consider it to likely be a false cognate, and as such I put no stock in this. Just interesting to wonder about.

[@HarappanEnigma2024]

Like fever फीवर Like Jvar ज्वर meaning high body temperature

[@kargaroc386]

100BC was also called the year of Marius and Flaccus being consul in Rome. It was also when Julius Caesar was born.

[@MartinAhlman]

One "mus" two "möss" in Swedish :-) Also, it's still "apa" (stressing the first syllable, stressing the other one as well, but less).

[@brittakriep2938]

In my swabian dialect of german language mice is Meis, similar pronouncion.

[@MegaPhester]

Why do the pictures from the Germanic Iron Age and the Modern English periods show the same person?

[@christianlingurar7085]

thank you very much again, very enlightening for a german! can it be that the "monkey"-thing goes the other way around? that "apes" got called apes because of an already existing word being used for them? in german dialects "aff" is historically used rather frequently while there was practically no knowledge about apes in the population, I would think - except via this word. it pertained, though. it describes a certain way of behaviour. btw, are you really sure about the "capra" -> "haver" thing?! you say "oat" but I hear "goat". what does PIE say to goat and haver? I can very recommend diving or digging into current german dialects, it's a treasure! some are further apart from one another than others are from current english.

[@stefanreichenberger5091]

Interesting that Proto-Germanic had this difficult velar fricative also at the beginning of words (like modern Greek gamma).

[@laamonftiboren4236]

I would love to see a video showing the evolution of noun case from Proto-Germanic through to the modern state, preferably including dialectal variations. Likewise with verb conjugations.

[@HeadsFullOfEyeballs]

4:03 Reconstructed Common Slavic as I was taught it has a three-way vowel length distinction as well -- extra-short (ь and ъ), short, long.

[@maiaallman4635]

German also has that feature where the plural gets an umlaut (only some words).

[@Leo-uu8du]

German uses umlauts very often (e.g. Baum/Bäume, Mann/Männer, ich schlafe/du schläfst), but then again there are also some varieties that don't have as many umlauts, like Bavarian (e.g. paam/paamer, mã/mãnner, i schlåf/du schlåfst). Bavarian has an additional umlaut though that doesn't exist in other German varieties and is mostly used for diminutives, namely å>a (e.g. åst/äst, but with diminutive: astl/astln).

[@ksbrook1430]

"haver" may have fallen out of use in English....but I wonder if the town Haversham in England is related in any way to the old word. Wonderful video, as always.

[@ahwhwhshwhs]

Intrigued by how close the hypothetical word which meant goat is to the Scots language word ‘haver’ - ‘to haver about’ is to act foolishly or indecisively. To call someone foolish ‘a goat’ is also very common in Scots, so I wonder if there is a connection there at all, what with Scots language’s links to English.

[@bujin1977]

Interesting to see the changes that led to one mouse, many mice. I'd be interested in seeing the comparison of changes with one house, many houses.

[@funnysilly5020]

They come from different declensions. Like he says in the video, “mouse, mice” comes from Old English “mūs, mȳs” and Proto-Germanic “mūs, mūsiz”. That group also gave us “tooth, teeth” “House, houses” traces back to “hūs, hūs” in Old English though. With Proto-Germanic giving “hūsa, hūsō”. Its group gave us “shroud, shrouds” which also had no distinct plural in Old English

[@bujin1977]

@@funnysilly5020 Thanks. Very interesting.

[@frankharr9466]

That was really cool. I kind of wish I knew what Haver was supposed to be. I'm sure you said it, but I missed it. Anyway, thank you. O.K.! It's a goat! Now I'm wondering where Goat came from, but now I know that's what a Haver could have been.

[@Great_Olaf5]

Of it possible that the goat word experienced a couple weird sound changes to become heifer? Or does that word have an understood etymology? It would involve a change in meaning, but I know that's not unheard of... And I vaguely recall that changes in meaning can result in divergence from the more common sound shifts going on, the two examples that come to mind are both examples of derogation mind you, huswif and coney, but... I'm just curious.

[@wolfgang2453]

I don't think they are the same word, as the ME spellings of heifer given by Wiktionary are heyfre, hayfre, heyfer; the presence of the y suggests to me that it is not pronounced how Simon reconstructs the "haver" word having been pronounced around the same time. I do think, however, that they could very possibly be closely related, as the origin of "heifer" is disputed before OE

[@tim1724]

It looks like the origin of heifer is unknown; it's unique to English according to the OED: "Old English heahfore (probably héahfore), heahfru, -fre, of obscure etymology; not found outside English. As to the form, héahfore might perhaps mean ‘high-farer’, i.e. high-goer or high-stepper (-fŏre unstressed form of -fare, feminine of -fara, < faran to fare, go). But the applicability of such a name is not apparent; and the form héahfru, -fre, remains without satisfactory explanation. The difficulties of form and sense are increased by connecting, as some suggest, -fare, -fru, with Old English fearr, Old High German far(r, farro bull."

[@wolfgang2453]

I wonder if the word "heifer" is related to our hypothetical "haver"? It means a young female cow that hasn't calved, and the forms Wiktionary gives for Middle English don't look dissimilar to how I imagine /'hɐfer/ would've been spelled (heyfre, hayfre, heyfer). I don't know how common the word "heifer" is outside of the southern US, so I only explain in case it's not that common

[@wolfgang2453]

The presence of the y in all 3 of the ME spellings of "heifer" dispel any notions in my mind that they were the same word at the time of the ME period, but I still wonder if they may be related

[@tim1724]

"Heifer" is a common word (at least among those who raise cattle) throughout the English-speaking world. It's unique to English, though, and the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't have a convincing etymology for it: "Old English heahfore (probably héahfore), heahfru, -fre, of obscure etymology; not found outside English. As to the form, héahfore might perhaps mean ‘high-farer’, i.e. high-goer or high-stepper (-fŏre unstressed form of -fare, feminine of -fara, < faran to fare, go). But the applicability of such a name is not apparent; and the form héahfru, -fre, remains without satisfactory explanation. The difficulties of form and sense are increased by connecting, as some suggest, -fare, -fru, with Old English fearr, Old High German far(r, farro bull."

[@vvvvaaaacccc]

thanks you two for these comments! I'd been wondering about this possible connection, too.

[@montealegreluis5983]

I confirm as an spanish native from Nicaragua, we usually dont pronounce our S at the end of words 😶😶

[@aliceestate3899]

Jans = Gans = Goose. There are still areas around Berlin till Magdeburg where they pronounce a G as a J. There they say still Jans.

[@swagmundfreud666]

My dialect of English has a nasal spirant change 2.0 going on. For example, "can't" would be pronounced [kʰɛ̃ə̃t].

[@pannekook2000]

mine too, but with t-glottalization too so that the final consonant is almost completely dropped

[@swagmundfreud666]

@@pannekook2000 I usually end up pronouncing the final t as an unreleased alveolar stop, but t-glottalization does happen sometimes for me too.

[@friiq0]

There’s a different KZbinr named Joel Haver whom I am a big fan of. I wonder if his name came from that ‘goat’ word.

[@kernowforester811]

At 9:11 it states that f, s and th become voiced between two voiced, a bit like Cornish. For instance Pen sans (holy head) becomes Pen zans (spelt Penzance in english spelling). Is it possible one language influenced the other, or just coincidence?

[@LydiaMoMydia]

will you do more hypothetical english dialects?

[@LuciaSims745]

Apa is still used in Swedish and in German it's called Affe, so the p changed to ff in German.

[@blakewinter1657]

Very cool!

[@roruda]

I'm guessing Spanish "cabra" and Proto-Germanic /'xɑɸrɑz/ are related huh? edit: Ganso and /ɣɑns/ are probably cognates too!

[@mcicogni]

That is not a coincidence, both Latin (that says "capra") and Proto-Germanic come from Proto-Indo-European.

[@BughunterX]

The modern german words Vogel, Maus/Mäuse, Tag, Ganz and Affe are clearly recognisable

[@mrtrollnator123]

Why did the p turn into an f in German?

[@BughunterX]

@@mrtrollnator123 The same reason why T turned into Z, i dont know.

[@DanielDavis1973]

I'm kind of wondering if hafraz is at all related to the word heifer

[@servantofaeie1569]

that's what I thought, but sadly it isn't

[@LemoUtan]

@@servantofaeie1569 heahfore notwithstanding, apparently

[@eronpowell6008]

Is haver the scottish word in the famous song “I’m gonna be (500 miles)” or is that an altogether different word?

[@weepingscorpion8739]

That's a different word. To ha(i)ver in Scots means to talk foolishly. The origin is unknown.

[@t.c.bramblett617]

Gode blaesse our noble queen Phillip VIII!

[@SammeLagom]

I recognise some words we use in our Swedish language :D Fågel, Mus, Apa, Musik, Gås. Very intersting stuff

[@christianiffland3729]

Very interesting that some of the words of before early modern English are more than similar to today's dialects in the German Rhineland.

[@gertrudlehmann4869]

thanks

[@joshb7687]

Is the hypothetical word related at all to the modern word "heifer" for a female cow, if not directly then perhaps indirectly by tracing it through another Germanic language that then loaned to English?

[@dayalasingh5853]

1:02 I'm not sure if they're cognate but the Punjabi word for swan is ਹੰਸ or in IPA ɦənsᵊ

[@HarappanEnigma2024]

Kindly post same content along with PHONETICS & PHONEMICS ; both; in SANSKRIT alpha SYLLABRY DIACRITIC script that DIA- CRITICS to represent SOUND faithfully.

[@AnnaAnna-uc2ff]

Thanks.

[@zeon_zaku]

Does anyone have any literature of the loss of the z in West Germanic? I have read, that East Germanic broke away first, which might have left a kind of Proto-Northwest Germanic around 0 AD to 200 AD, so I was wondering, if the z underwent rhotacism first before disappearing in earlier West Germanic.

[@carlstein9278]

you mean if there was a period in westgermanic were it was ringr before it came ring right? i have no answer just wanted to clarify

[@longuevalnz]

iirc the z was lost in West Germanic except in certain monosyllables - which explains among other things the ‘r’ at the end of wir (German for “we”) -

[@Leo-uu8du]

I guess the z>r development was rather slow overall, considering that not only in English "freezing" you still don't have an r-sound, but also in Austria "friasn" is still used instead of something similar to the German "frieren" (Note that there are some dialects in Austria that use "frian", which could come from a vocalized r).

[@zeon_zaku]

@@carlstein9278 Basically yes.

[@zeon_zaku]

In particular this piqued my interest, because I was going through a list of some Old English words, where I found "wuldor," which seems to have an intact nominative suffix although defective. So it made me wonder, if West Germanic and Proto-Norse were almost identical later than often said.

[@skeptic781]

3:14 that's how I always pronounce it in my northern irish accent

[@bendthebow]

How about Heifer, which has an uncertain etymology. Probably not but just a thought

[@beast_boy97]

Joel Haver needs to see this

[@jangtheconqueror]

one mus many mis reminds me of a joke by Brian Regan in which he's joking about how hard plurals are, and he's joking that if goose becomes geese, moose should become meese. Little did he know (or maybe he did) that mouse and mice started with those exact sounds

[@drliorsilberman]

I'd guess that heifer (cow) is reflex of xafraz (obviously related to the latin goat capra)

[@MrBenaud]

I suppose the obvious question about the first word on the list is whether it is the origin of the Scots word 'haver'. It would certainly make sense if a word that means 'to talk nonsense' or 'to babble' were to have as its origin: 'to (bleat like a) goat'.

[@dixgun]

I've forgotten if there’s any linguistic connection between the words moose and mouse.

[@montyyy08]

Before the Punic Wars, the Carthaginians did much trade throughout Northern Europe, where Proto-Germanic originated. Their word for monkey / ape must have been Ukapu (based on Akkadian Uqupu ). Even in Sanskrit it’s Kapi. Perhaps it’s onomatopoeic on the sound the animal made? I believe in Sumerian it’s Ugudu, and in Dravidian it’s Mukuke. The word must originate in Central Africa or India where the animal is native. It’s the exact same situation for the word Elephant.

[@obamabinladen4109]

14:47 Mick Jagger jumpscare

[@davidmandic3417]

Re. the word "ape", similarly, there is a word that means "elephant" in many Slavic languages (slon, or something similar) which is of Proto-Slavic origin. Where that came from is a mystery, as far as I know, since I'm sure elephants weren't a common sight in the Proto-Slavic homeland in those times.

[@pierreabbat6157]

Wiktionary says it's most likely from Turkish "aslan" (lion) or a cognate. Possibly the word was transmitted with a description of an exotic mammal that got mangled in a game of telephone. Conversely, the cognate of "elephant", "*velǐbǫdŭ", came to mean "camel".

[@susanwestern6434]

Turkish-Aslan - The Lion, the Wich and the Wardrobe by CS Lewis.

[@pierreabbat6157]

@@susanwestern6434 Tash means stone, but why was the Calormene god called that?

[@davidmandic3417]

@@pierreabbat6157 It's possible that it comes from a Turkic language, since Early Common Slavic would have been *slanu, which sounds similar to 'aslan'. But it's a bit weird that it turned out to mean 'elephant' everywhere.

[@marjae2767]

@@pierreabbat6157 Also Gothic 𐌿𐌻𐌱𐌰𐌽𐌳𐍃, "camel."

[@HarappanEnigma2024]

DIACRITIC use make things very clear ; kindly write ✍️ all your words in SANSKRIT SCRIPT & DIACRITICS will make pronunciation easy.

[@TheYuvimon]

Question: is the Y with the loop at the bottom pronounced more like a German R sound in the back of the throat or like a G? Or is it bound by context?

[@alpenjon]

In Swiss German we still say mouse and mice like it was said 500-800 AD ;)

[@brittakriep2938]

And also there is the Müesli :-))

[@12tanuha21]

@@brittakriep2938 not to be confused with german Müsli, which mean cereal (Mus + li, tiny mush) ^^

[@brittakriep2938]

@@12tanuha21 : Müsli means in Swiss German ,little mouse', Müesli is the noted cereal mix. Because for most germans swiss ,üe' is unknown, the cereal mix is in Germany mostly called Müsli.

[@mrtrollnator123]

​@@brittakriep2938 we have that word in English as well, muesli

[@almukhtarjanabi]

I’m an Arab and I know it might be far from being relevant but “Hafraz” sounds close to “Haafer” in Arabic “حافر" which means an ungulate or hoofed animal 😀

[@ratatoskr1069]

Germanic people were obviously aware of the existance of monkeys. The ancient world was not at all closed just because they had no air travel. It might be interesting to note that lions exist in artwork all over anciet europe and... actual lions *lived* in ancient Europe at least as far up as nowadays tchec republic or hungary. I am not aware of live monkeys in ancient Europe but travel, trade and word of mouth would 100% make the northern European people aware of the existance of monkeys in 100 BC, in 1000 BC and most probably in 2000 BC and older aswell. If you could buy a pet monkey on a market in North Africa in 100 BC, then you could buy one in Athens, on Crimea, up the Volga and probably some wealthy King in Scandinavia had a pet monkey. I mean... you get my point.

[@Urlocallordandsavior]

Would love for you to have a conversation with Atun-Shei Films some day on a video (have you seen his recent work on Demonology in OP?).

[@patchy642]

Isle of Tenerife, Spain, Africa. Mister Roper, I'm about to embark on learning West Frisian, if you'd like to join me, or don't you think it would enrich our knowledge of Old English? Frisian is a language that will surely soon be extinct. As for the Spanish word "más", if the speaker doesn't pronounce its final S, then generally they don't pronounce it in rapid or slow speech. Andalusians are extremely prone to this. They're usually not really aware that they're not pronouncing it, it's such a normal and natural feature. Then when they try to learn English, they're often not aware that they make similar omissions of final S, not so acceptable in English.

[@peters.778]

Little question to native English speakers: Is there a difference between monkey and ape or can they be used interchangeably?

[@simonroper9218]

I think most people think of apes as being tailless (like gibbons and chimpanzees), and monkeys as having tails :) Other people may have different criteria, as well.

[@banjohero1182]

they are different groups of animals. wikipedia would do a better job of defining them than me. i will say, in English, at least in the usa, it is advisable to NEVER use either term to refer to or address a human

[@dizzydaisy909]

The word /'hɛjvə/ you deemed as a hypothetical is almost the same pronunciation as the Scottish-English word "haver" (/ˈhāvər/), which means "to talk foolishly" or "to babble". This feels related to the /'xɑɸrɑz/ you started with. Another possibility is modern English "heffer", which means a young cow. Maybe which animal it meant changed at some point?

[@dizzydaisy909]

Some extra notes on this: Many people have noted that this word is cognate with Spanish "cabra", which also means goat. But it's also cognate with Proto-Celtic "*kaɸerūxs", which becomes Irish "caora", and that means "sheep". It also shares roots with Proto-Celtic "*gabros", which is in Irish as "gabhar" and retains the "goat" meaning. (Source: Wiktionary) Seperately, Etymologeek has the etymology of "haver" as being from Proto-Germanic "*habrô" which, in its' modern form, means "oats". However, it also has the meaning I originally presented in the first comment, but with an unknown etymology. I think the possibility of it coming from /'xɑɸrɑz/ is likely, not that I'm sure.

[@henner7371]

In Low German (which is modern Saxon) we say Haver Vogel doon Goos Muus Müüs Dag Aap At 10.05 you pronounced the words do:n, go:s, mu:s and my:s pretty much like we pronounce them today in the Region between the Elbe and the Weser in northern Lower Saxony.

[@Leo-uu8du]

Does "haver" have the meaning of "he-goat" in modern (lower) saxon?

[@aboba5995]

Low German is also Low Franconian language, not only Low Saxon

[@ciaranmadden555]

Cool

[@jannetteberends8730]

Surprised that the first change in mu:siz sounds very similar to the Dutch word for mouse: muis. It’s almost like the Dutch skipped the s in those words

[@markwaldron8954]

Perhaps the word that evolved/devolved into "ape" was originally a generic term for any sort of anthropoid, non-human being. Much like modern "primate" or "hominid". After all, there is a long tradition of legends of non-human, bipedal, intelligent species among the Germanic peoples.

[@pawel198812]

Irish has the word 'abhac' meaning 'dwarf'. Maybe there's a Germanic/Celtic connection? As a side note, the Romanian word for dwarf 'pitic' is probably a loanwod from Greek πίθηκος (monkey/ape)

[@ethanwhill]

Hi Simon, thanks for the video. What resources did you use for this and the other video where you reconstructed a sentence in Proto Germanic? Would love to find out for a project of mine. Thanks!

[@robthetraveler1099]

11:15 No cheeses for us meeses 😜 15:21 What in the world is that caption saying??

[@inspectorremorse610]

Ah, yes, Muppet Christmas Carol, the best version of that story ever filmed 😏

[@wtspman]

Is there any chance the word for goat lives on as heifer, reapplied to a different animal?