Sine Wave lesson by Grand Master Hwang

This is a section of the Sept 9th 2012 seminar performed by Grand Master Hwang at Shurgarts Martial Arts in Agawam MA. Grand Master Hwang is one of the General's former right hand men.

[@SimonScher]

I was skeptical at first also, but it really does work. Just like with all real martial arts in practice we exaggerate it, make it bigger so that we can work on the details better but then we boil it down to a finer movement and the results are pretty powerful. It is simmilar to the bobbing motion of a boxer. it keeps you lighter on your feet, more relaxed and able to generate a great deal more torque. It is based on the principal of reactionary force.

[@bibleperspectives8116]

The sine wave is exaggerated during training but very subtle when sparring. People who have video recorded matches and then run them in slow motion have seen the sine wave in ITF TKD specifically but other martial arts, including western boxing, generally. Jim D 4th Dan ITF

[@scarred10]

There has never been anything resembling sine wave in any sparring in any combat art because it does not work, Choi introduced it purely to be different to karate,that's its its only purpose

[@bibleperspectives8116]

@@scarred10 Hock Aun Teh who was 6th dan when he broke away from Master Rhee. This is before the sine wave became prominent in the ITF. Gen. Choi moved away from using the hip twist to a sine wave, at least in part, to distinguish ITF TKD from Karate, after Teh left the ITF to form Tukido. However, that is not the only reason Gen. Choi adopted the sine wave. I have trained in TaeKwon-Do since 1973 and first encountered the sine wave around 1980 as a 2nd Dan. I adopted it but still kept the hip twist which was prominent in Shotokan Karate and the ATA taekwondo that I trained in as well as ITF. I have seen tremendous misunderstandings in various forms of taekwondo but the sine wave does have merit if used properly. See physicsoftkd.wordpress.com/2016/04/01/sine-wave-and-acceleration/ and www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3097185/ for explanation. Also, Gen. Choi's text on TaeKwon-Do, the Korean Art of Self Defense and his encyclopedia explain theories of power used in ITF TKD. That said, I trained my students to use hip rotation, sine wave, focus (relaxation/tension as well as focus on target), proper stance, reaction force, proper breathing (exhalation with delivery), and KiHap at major part of combination or Tul/Hyung.

[@DiarmuidMacSuibhne]

Excellent clip of Grand Master Hwang's explanation of General Choi's Sine Wave. In response to many critical comments- The reason that the "Sine Wave" goes "low" first is part of a relaxation of the body in before preparing to perform the technique, once you have relaxed and then brought your body into a position to perform the technique you are relaxed and prepared to accelerate your attacking tool towards the target and concentrate the force of your technique with an overall tension of the body.

[@DiarmuidMacSuibhne]

The concept of relaxing before performing any technique in any sport requiring speed or explosive power is tried and tested. If you are lifting weights, throwing or kicking a ball or swinging a bat, you will always need to relax your body for maximum acceleration. Sine Wave is the means in which Taekwon-Do achieves this relaxation. It is one of many ways to generate force, this is just the way that General Choi picked, which, in my opinion is a beautiful and graceful way when performed properly.

[@ilikezappa3268]

Really ? I watched the patterns on Choi`s DVDs No doubt the performers were superb TKD practitioners ,but the bouncy movement looked terrible. Oh well , it is a matter of what you are used to I guess. I expect if you`re are a Jehovah`s Witness or a Nazi it all makes sense to you and everyone else doesn`t see it. Not sure about the physics either . If you slow something down ,which you absolutely do ,if you add a wibbly movement before you punch , you reduce the "A" in F=MA to give you a smaller F . Less force ,not more ?? That is pretty basic Newtonian mechanics. Hmmmmm ( And you telegraph it ,so I can tell it is coming - hooray ! present for me .) Mine is coming at you from shoulder height with no pull back before I throw it . Race you ? Not disputing that relaxation adds power . No decent boxer is stiff ,but the super exaggerated bounce ? No thanks .

[@DaveJones876]

ILike Zappa It's not a bounce. It's dropping your mass simlutaneous with your strike so that your strike is aided by the recoil..ie..reaction force from the ground. That is the reaction force is added to your striking force to produce a more powerful resultant force

[@ilikezappa3268]

DaveJones876 So , a more powerful punch that takes longer to deliver , and is telegraphed.? The puncher is stuck to the floor due to dropping his weight and can`t move as quickly . Sounds like you are not going to be the favourite to win your next boxing match .

[@ilikezappa3268]

DaveJones876 PS The reaction force from the ground would push upwards ! It would have no effect on the speed of the punch because the punch is travelling perpendicular to the reaction force. It may help to stop you recoiling. Here is the thing . Boxers ( and I was one) don`t often punch at full power . You can`t do that for 12 rounds . Mostly we are throwing 60-70 percent . What we need is hand speed , and good footwork. The first thing I look for when facing a strange opponent is how mobile they are on their feet . Now , I know that a boxing match is not a street fight , but it a pretty good indicator of how effective your punching skills are . A Boxers right cross ( like TKD reverse punch ) is thrown with a bent back leg if you watch most of them . We aren`t really worried about being stuck to the floor by dropping our weight . We are more concerned that you don`t see it coming !

[@DaveJones876]

ILike Zappa Yes the reaction force would push upward..and would join with the downward force from your punch producing a larger resultant force. There is nothing mysterious about that. And re the punch taking longer; i'm not sure that it has to..because we all start fighting from a crouched position...and I don't believe the movement while being applied is as large as it is performed in the pattern..i believe the basic ideas of sine wave are observed..namely..simultaneous action..of eyes ...feet hands breath..relaxing before striking..not inhaling while striking..and utilizing your body mass in your strikes.

[@maestretim]

(Ran outof space) To utitlize leg strength from a middle stance to power a reverse punch, you leverage your body against the grown by bending your knees to allow hip twist, which transfers power from the legs to the torso, then the coupling motion of reaction force (i.e. pulling one arm back while the other executes a punch) to transfer that power from the torso to the limb, and finally you focus by twisting the wrist to transfer that power through your limb into the target.

[@maestretim]

What you're describing above isn't ave motion, or "sine wave" as it's inaccurately referred to. In the old days, we called that "weight loading". When generating force, your maximate output of striking force occurs when the strike and your momentum travel along the same line of force. If, for example, you try to strike forward while dropping yoru weight down, as in this video, you have divergent lines of force which results in loss of power as part of yor energy is wasted being directed downward

[@SimonScher]

I had a little more to say after the last post but ran out of space. here is the rest The first down up increases the ease of movement and the last down allows you to push your weight into the ground doubling your weight impact and increasing the expression of mass. The formula for power is Mass times Velocity Squared. So if you are relaxed you can move faster and if your expression of mass is increased then your power will increase.

[@SimonScher]

It seems like you are kind of describing sine wave, but you are disagreeing with the detail of traveling with it and the nomenclature. Believe me I have disagreed with many a teacher and was very skeptical at first of sine wave, but the more I practice it the more sense it makes and the more I see it applicability. A lot of teachers who teach it do not speak english well or don't fully understand it and that seems to be what causes a lot of controversy.

[@maestretim]

We simplified that as the Elements of Power: Stance, Hip Twist, Reaction Force, Focus. I speculate the joy of bouncing and hissing came, like you said, from the feeling that accompanies exaggerating the motion to work on the details. Exaggeration often leads to inaccuracy, and martial arts training often breeds techniques that are the product of not wanting to question (see disagree with) the teacher.

[@andrewwheeldon3957]

To intentionally delay the execution of your punch or strike is ludicrous, all you really need to do is 'come down' when you hit, sink into your stance, the additional effect of gravity will help your power. Even that is hard to do when sparring, Master Ki Ha Rhee used to be able to do it but he was exceptional, i once saw him spar against three opponents and he used classical stances and classical techniques - no boxing or 'normal' punches - it was beautiful to watch, he was so fast for a big man and immensely powerful.

[@scarred10]

he never did anything of the kind ,it was not a full contact match where they were trying to hit him

[@maximumcoverage5591]

I've talked to GM Hwang about done wave at length. When I lived with him in 94 is when he got on the Sine wave train..I said to him badicly done wave is about relaxing while you move and keeping your center while you move. He agreed. Yes I don't see the use in the exaggerated way some people do it. I've never had anyone say my til looks bouncy. I've heard it looks very powerful. MHO the relaxation it reached his the most important. If it holds no interest to you. Don't do it. That's very simple no?? Will practicing it back you a better at sparring or board breaking?? I would probably spend my time on other training methods. Does doing some form of it in your tul give you a better chance at medaling in competition? Of course. Do I really care one way or another? Not really. It's part of the curriculum so I do it. Then I don't spend any time thinking about it. Reading all the comments just ate up 10 min I'll never get back so I won't do that again.

[@Gieszkanne]

In ITF fights you dont see any sine wave so whats the purpose of training it?!

[@SimonScher]

of course you see sine wave in ITF fights. it is just less stylized and exaggerated as when you do patterns. it is about timing breath with weight dropping and hip rotation. we all do that when we fight, and we move in wave patterns naturally. when we practice the sine wave like we practice any techniques, enlarged and exaggerated then when we do it smaller and finer all of the pieces are there and so it works smoothly.

[@DaveJones876]

Simon Scher Is it possible to show videos of sine wave being used in sparring? I'm not being a skeptic here..but..I'm not sure I've seen it either.

[@derekleventritt4288]

I’m not trying to disrespect the art but don’t you think by continually practicing the exaggerated approach that it be very hard to streamline the motion to be smaller? I just feel it’s teaching bad habits of over committing.

[@scarred10]

@@SimonScher that is not anyones definition odf sine wave and hip twisy isnt part of it.

[@scarred10]

your mass must move in the direction of the strike to be effective,not up and down.That formula is incorrect,power is force times velocity,kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared.However,even if the sine wave was more powerful,it cannot be used in sparring or self defense so its pointless.

[@christophermarsden1316]

wow those blacks in the back are sloppy

[@scarred10]

its not in the slightest like a bob in boxing,that is a completely functional defensive manoeuvre.It also isn't related to lightness on your feet because you aren't even on the balls of your feet that would facilitate quick movement.Real arts fight full contact,they exaggerate nothing in practise,thats why tkd isn't in this category.

[@Dragon7545]

The sine wave terminology was taken from Electronics Engineering. The ITF has been made insignificant by WTF strategies and advancements over the past 30 years or so. I have studied several Martial Arts Styles or systems to include being a former ITF Instructor. The ITF was at one time a solid Martial Arts choice. That has changed. The so called sine wave principle is an ineffective ITF concept to energize what little base the organization has left. The so called ITF sine wave principle is not logical or practical in the "real world" application of martial arts techniques.

[@markgreene573]

The ITF was made insignificant? Now that's funny .

[@andrewwheeldon3957]

'what little base the organization has left' ??? what???? Q: What is the largest taekwondo organisation in Britain? and which type of taekwondo do they practice iTF or WTF?

[@markgreene573]

Its ITF of course. Only the very best practitioners are even allowed in the ITF, as you know

[@andrewwheeldon3957]

mark greene true, true.

[@MaharlikaAWA]

Dragon Phillips Wow somebody reasonable on an ITF video!!! I am glad!

[@lylesuperfoot]

1 wider did Tyson ,or Forman who generate incredible torque and power use some wave lol it's a joke , I like it better than wtf , at least they try to punch although it's like years away from boxing

[@SimonScher]

Check out my 7 steps to martial arts power video. It explains how Tyson and foreman do use sine wave. They just don’t exaggerate it in their practice like some ITF practitioners do.

[@ilikezappa3268]

Well , "Sine Wave" is a mathematical function denoting the ratio of size between the opposite and Hypotenuse sides of a right angled triangle. General Choi introduced it into TaeKwonDo , presumably so he could ruin the look of it. It may help to punch a brick in half ,but against a trained opponent ? Forget it . A boxer would have hit you five times before you had finished your first punch . Grand Master Hwang would be better served teaching those students to keep their guard up when they punch , not leave their other hand on the hip exposing the head .

[@MaharlikaAWA]

ILike Zappa Except it won't even help you break a brick....at all. It's just stupid.

[@DavidBarnwell876tkdja]

MaharlikaAWA Regardless of whether you think sine wave is useful in sparring folks use it in breaking all the time. Whaddaya mean it wont help?!

[@MaharlikaAWA]

David Barnwell Because it does not help you break a brick or boards. Hip rotation and torque is what helps. Not bouncing up and down and back up again.

[@DavidBarnwell876tkdja]

Actually it does. I know because I've used it..raising your body's mass prior to dropping it into your target simultaneous with performing a strike to a standing target obviously helps. As does applying torque via forming a couple with your hands..assuming your are using your hand to strike. And if the initial dip relaxes your muscles..I dont believe I've ever used it..mostly because I didnt know what it was for..so much the better. There is nothing wrong with that. But I have to say I disagree with one thing in your video rebuttal. You say sine wave doesn't aid a horizontal strike. I think our strikes, at least in breaking are very rarely horizontal. We are mostly punching down, using gravity, and avoiding muscular exertion. Same thing with kicks. And I cant see how the use of a reaction force wouldnt aid punching power..at least with a standing target. I will say that I'm not an expert and I dont know everything. So you could be right and I could be wrong. The thing I do agree with you on is that the ITF needs to show more practical examples of the use of sine wave. I believe Simon Scher demonstrates the use of couples whilst punching like a boxer. There need to be videos shown of people training this way and using sine wave while punching and moving.

[@ilikezappa3268]

David Barnwell It may help you generate less recoil , but it makes the technique slow . That is a major reason not to try it against a human opponent . If you need to punch your way into a locked fridge full of Donuts ,great . Bounce away . In a fight ? Good luck .

[@ilikezappa]

It looks very different to the motion of a boxer. It seems very slow. I have seen ITF practitioners use it in their linework ,but when it comes to any practical application,they don`t have time. I think someone put mushrooms in General Choi`s tea when he dreamt that one up ! By the time you have completed your first "down up" you nose will be squashed on the end of my boxing glove ! (Unless I am wrong , No offence intended)

[@scarred10]

I know for a fact its completely unusable outside of patterns and powerbreaking.There is plenty of force in ATA techniques,its exactly the same as karate,hip twist which is how power is developed in every combat sport and athletics throwing events since time began.If you were formally educated in biomechanics,youd realise it makes no sense and even less for combat where theres no time for any preparation.For the record I was with the itf under grandmaster howard from 1984 till 2000.

[@SimonScher]

Hi Guys, I just wanted to put in on the conversations about the sine wave. I just finished this tutorial that explains the 7 elements of the sine wave and greater martial arts power as clearly as I think is possible. Please check it out and let me know what you think kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6nUiXmAf9eAi68

[@ilikezappa]

Simon Scher How are you Simon ? I watched the vid , but the sound on my crappy computer didn`t work . I will try again after a trip to the speaker shop

[@SimonScher]

cool. :). It is my attempt to break down the sine wave and expose all of the elements of power within to make it seem less stylized and more a compendium or unified theory of power that incorporates all the things that everyone does in an attempt to naturalize the collection of power elements.

[@ilikezappa]

Simon Scher Good . So far , no-one has been able to justify it convincingly to me . That doesn`t mean that people from different styles of TKD , or other arts have to be rude to each other . I don`t care for the Sine Wave , but the ITF has some brilliant people in it , who are highly skilled. No disrespect intended .

[@SimonScher]

Hey, it's all good if you don't like the SW or don't want to use it. I agree that everybody is entitled to their thoughts and should not be persecuted for disagreeing or insulted because something doesn't work for them. I feel that every martial art has something to offer and to say only one thing is right or everything else is wrong will hold one back as a martial artist. I hope your journey is fruitful. Thanks for your input.

[@ilikezappa3268]

Simon Scher Oh , have really enjoyed the journey so far . I started in 1985 and it has (mostly) been great . The crushed testicle was less than a giggle . I advise you to avoid that experience Mr Simon .

[@michaelpower38]

Sine wave is rubbish