So is Disney Just Never Gonna Have a Real Villain Again?

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Schaff likes villains, remember when Disney did?
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[@peacefulinvasion684]

I feel like disney needs to understand not every movie needs a villain, but some movies need one.

[@stevencooper4422]

Especially if it's children who are the audience. Abstract notions don't really develop until after 11 years old.

[@bluebay1031]

​@@stevencooper4422 To be fair, small children arent the target audience for every single movie. Some of their movies are all ages, some are geared towards tweens and early teens, etc. Moreover, at least where I was, a lot of kids were prohibited from watching the early Disney movies because the villains were considered too scary. I do think Disney needs to crank out some actual villains again, but the fact that kids will be watching it isnt really an accurate reasoning for that.

[@whitedragoness23]

The problem is they don’t understand when to put twist villians, when no villian is needed, when a story needs a villain, and how to tell a story

[@redpanda6497]

@@stevencooper4422 It's for everyone, not just kids.

[@michaelwhitmire9015]

@@redpanda6497 Thats the problem.

[@cuentaoficialmentesinnombr3613]

Fun fact: The wolf was the character with the least screentime and yet, he stole the entire audience

[@mitacestalia7532]

everyone loves cool villain

[@stevencooper4422]

​@@mitacestalia7532 El Lobo also sounds like lobotomy in English, making it still sound terrifying.

[@arandomhoodedguy9789]

Correct, but replace “The wolf” with Jimny Cricket.

[@declaracionespolemicas]

​@@stevencooper4422 🤔

[@Riltea]

Reminds me of Senator Armstrong & Monsoon

[@SonicBahasa]

This video makes me think about how Coco had both generational trauma and a well-executed twist villain who was responsible for the family's generational trauma.

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

I thought about that, too. Nowadays, they probably would have just left the villain out, and the film would have been worse for it.

[@Furienna]

@@erickpoorbaugh6728 But I don't see how the generational trauma could have happened without the villain.

[@darshansooful9559]

@@FuriennaHector just never came home for no reason

[@Furienna]

​@@darshansooful9559Well yeah, that is what everybody thought. But then I don't see what the plot would be.

[@thedashey]

​@@Furienna They could have him take a boat to do music overseas and get shipwrecked. Ernesto would survive and play his songs to honor his memory.

[@daniellewilliams849]

Tbh I also love how puss never defeated death, just postponed it. He accepted his fate that was sure to come at some point and death came to respect him and let him enjoy his last life. Disney could learn from having a undefeated but retreating and compelling villain

[@marcusstewart4141]

🎯

[@history-jovian]

A retreating villain maybe good but I think going back to the root of just making them irredeemable to the point that you have to kill them, might be kinda refreshing

[@galten7361]

Death was really just to represent the protagonist's coming to terms with his mortality. Not a threat the way Horner is.

[@history-jovian]

@@galten7361 true

[@malmart0]

​@@history-joviandude you can't kill death

[@toasterbonanza9198]

Amazing how the Shrek franchise went from clapping back at Disney by incoprorating gross-out humor, innuendos, and pop culture references, to clapping back at Disney by including 3 compelling villains in 1 movie.

[@CountFab]

Is it possible to learn this power?

[@Thunderdransword]

@@CountFab not from a Disney employee

[@theoddbox]

Honestly some of the most iconic moments in animation history came from other studios and former Disney employees wanting to stick it to the mouse

[@guilhermeteodosio40]

Sad how gross-out humor became the norm for animation when it was special only because it broke the previous status quo of fantasy and Disney musicals

[@queendsheena1]

Exactly

[@aryandairshad]

I was initially taken aback by the fact that Jack Horner was a stereotypical one-dimensional villain. But then it hit me. He doesn't NEED to have some sad backstory or a twist reveal, Jack Horner is evil and he LIKES it. A lot of humor comes from just how much he enjoys being a villain.

[@sarahvalerie4307]

He does have a bit of a backstory though, and I would say the idea of it is a bit sad (a kid who merely wants to be liked but is overlooked). But I do agree with your overall point

[@cadhla2989]

​@@sarahvalerie4307 All he wants is to be given love and attention... at first. Which quickly spirals from "Pinocchio is loved because magic, so I want magic" to "fuck it let's nuke the world with baby unicorn horns". To me, that's absolutely hilarious and fun for a villain.

[@vaclavbastl500]

Big Jack Horner is a perfect example of "if you have a one-dimensional villain, they better be entertaining". Having a one-dimensional villain that only talks about how evil they are and about their evil plan is just boring. This mf on the other hand is someone you just love to see come up on the screen, even if they are a horrible monster.

[@startheangel9760]

​@@sarahvalerie4307 I think he's like Eric Cartman in a way being so heavily spoiled that he becomes selfish and narcissistic

[@redactedoktor]

@@cadhla2989 Yeah, he has reasons, but like, they’re only reasonable to a villain. When he described his wish as having all magic in the world and leaving none for anyone else and continuing by saying “Is that so much to ask?” To which the cricket responds “YES!” Jack retorting with “Agree to disagree.” Before continuing to go on and kill his entire crew via negligence, is what gets to the heart of this character. A truly 1 dimensional evil cause evil character would be one without really a character or motive, it would essentially work as a force of nature for the protagonists to overcome, but Jack HAS character AND motive, just not heroic or even neutral ones, just straight up villainous!

[@devinhallsworth5531]

Cruella de Vil was literally just a upper class lady in a really expensive fur coat with a really nice car. Yet she still had such raw emotion and pure livid rage in her being that she's more intimidating to see on screen than a lot of comic book villains that can destroy planets. Just rewatch that chase scene from 101 dalmations and bask in how well they animated her pure rage.

[@Thomasmemoryscentral]

If I remembered correctly, the part where her car ran off the bridge into the ditch was the last straw because she had enough of the dalmatians evading her. Once she threw the car into full drive forward, Cruella showed she isnt playing around anymore and with her car bursting out from the ditch with tons of pieces tearing off, she no longer cared for anything else aside from killing those puppies for her fur coat. Take note of the full stripped glory of her once shes burst out from the ditch: her eyes have the scary psycho red lines in them, the engine is fully exposed and theres no longer a roof over her head. In a way, you could view it as the full rage of Cruella exposed. No longer caring for looks right now because she only wants her dalmatian coat and if she needs to run a truck off the road containing them, she'll do it

[@TheGamingMotionTGM]

@@Thomasmemoryscentral I've just noticed that its similarity was preceded by a darker version of it like The Great Mouse Detective with the London clock tower scene. As Ratigan realized that his second plan to kidnap Olivia is going to fail completely (his other plan to perform a coup at Buckingham Palace was foiled by Basil), he frees himself from the clock gears, tearing his suit and revealing that he's pursuing the main character while not in a professor-like clasiness but as a madman hell bent on killing Basil by the very least. Which to say in conclusion, Disney reinvented the rivalry of Holmes vs Moriarty on that one.

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@TheGamingMotionTGM So, Ratigan hulks out and tries to smash Basil?

[@TheGamingMotionTGM]

@@jeffreygao3956 He is a rat, which in real life would be bigger than a mouse Basil was. The true self was hidden inside those pair of white gloves too, pure elegance covering the claws that were ready to strike.

[@disneyvillainsfan1666]

Cruella does not need superpowers to be scary.

[@roastingnerd8545]

villains arent just bad guys, they're plot devices that enhances the protagonists journey and development.

[@frogitude3106]

I think the word you’re looking for is antagonist. A villain IS bad, but an antagonist just works against the protagonist, regardless of their morality. But I agree, there should be some motive behind the antagonist rather than just “I’m bad”

[@BubbaMassacre]

@@frogitude3106 there doesn’t have to be, I mean look at big jack Horner, he had little to no reason to do what he had done and yet he still pulled off the evil trope really well

[@spritemon98]

​@@BubbaMassacre a thriving baked good enterprise and wealth. Who needs useless crap like that?

[@sweetdreams1028]

Exactly

[@101jir]

@@frogitude3106 Worth note is that there are a handful of real life people not unlike Jack Horner (to add to Bubba's comment), such as de Sade. de Sade was a noble that didn't need to commit the atrocities that he did, but he wanted to. He simply enjoyed it, no matter how needlessly it complicated his life.

[@ThatBluDude]

I think Disney has the same problem a lot of studios have nowadays. They'll take criticism at face value and try to remedy it with band aid solutions. They heard "We don't like the villain!" with Frozen, Big Hero 6, and Zootopia, and said "They must not like villains AT ALL anymore!" and opted to remove them rather than FIX them.

[@lancetheking7524]

And what about the criticism about.... live action and the fuckery with the Chinese government with the movie I shant not name

[@runningoncylinders3829]

"The people have spoken! They want no effort!" -Chugga Sticks it to Sticker Star

[@cartoonishidealism582]

Honestly I don’t think they care that much about fan opinion

[@TheDeathmail]

To be fair, I'm glad Encanto actually didn't have a villain. Good people... good family, can also have problems... The entire family had trouble because of a good grandmother who did an overall great job in raising her family and village...

[@rommix0]

And shit talk to fans who hate their movies like they did with Last Jedi. That for me was the last straw, and this was all the way back in 2017. Disney has been shit slinging it since.

[@EE-iv5ej]

They want to make a personal drama villain tragic? How about make them irredeemable? That'll feel more tragic, the fact that you had emotional connection to a villain, but you cannot redeem them anymore, you must learn to let them go. It's like growing up with a friend you grew to love throughout your childhood, only to see them degenerate and become criminal in your adult years. And just feel the agony of seeing how someone you loved turn into someone you don't want to be with anymore.

[@austinreed7343]

See also Char Aznable.

[@Otval_bashky]

Or abusive parent who cannot be redeemed

[@thevioletbee5879]

@@Otval_bashky Athalie from Muted.

[@user-is7xs1mr9y]

@@Otval_bashky Yeah, some people never change.

[@KyleEvra]

😂

[@Blackmongoose]

It's hillarious that Puss in Boots 2 has more good villains than the entire last 10 years of disney AND pixar films combined.

[@jugemujugemugokonosurikire4735]

I'd argue wreck it Ralph, but then I realised 2012 was 11 years ago, not 10.

[@Blackmongoose]

@@jugemujugemugokonosurikire4735 Exactly

[@Reputation_Ruiner]

i'd make the argument that pixar isn't really leaning towards villains, but mainly antagonists

[@Blackmongoose]

@@Reputation_Ruiner Well that would be fine if their antagonists were good. But they also suck.

[@spongebobsquarepants2981]

Puss in Boots 2 only had 2 villains in it lol

[@skirdus367]

big jack horner is such a good example of how to have a villain that's both extremely irredeemable and extremely entertaining

[@talkinghoorse6936]

I'm pretty sure they made him to be a parody of the "sympathetic villain" trend. The conscience bug literally wants to find some freudian excuse for why he's evil, and Jack's just like "nope I'm just evil lol".

[@gabrielmujica3201]

@Follow me, please are you?

[@armaslohemadu]

​@@talkinghoorse6936 "You're an irredeemable monster" Took you long enough

[@Ale-dd3ek]

You are not gonna shoot a puppy aren't you? Yeah in the face, why?

[@maxtube444]

Yeah

[@chasehedges6775]

I like the trend of not always having a villain in Disney movies but I miss when we had classic, fun and really intimidating villains in Disney.

[@Amexy-mr6lw]

Agree

[@buggysnake8699]

It just adds a wee bit of spice

[@somerandolad]

Jack Horner was up there with the likes of Scar, Maleficent, etc.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@somerandolad 👍👍Miss Scar, Hades and Maleficent

[@BeachioSandschannel]

@Depressed Doggo You realize Schaff doesn’t care about the trolls?

[@sammythecat2072]

This is why i will forever praise The Hunchback of Notre Dame as a movie. It has a nuanced protagonist who is so fucked up from constant abuse that he struggles to do the right thing, and it has one of the nastiest, most monstrous, most downright irredeemable villains ever. Frollo is a hideously awful person. And his awfulness makes him a FANTASTIC villain. After he quite literally sings a song about how his disgusting thoughts were the fault of someone else (yikes), watching him get defeated by the one he systematically abused for years is so satisfying. Quasimodo wouldn’t have such a strong arc to his character without having such a horrific abuser in his life. Could you imagine if disney tried to tell this story without Frollo? It would be so empty.

[@abril4014]

They went all out with Frollo. BTW I love how this movie shows a hero that does not "get the girl" at the end like other movies, that really stood out to me as a child

[@Rikrobat]

Or worse, tried to tell the story with Frollo but went out of their way to show that he's bad because of other reasons, so we as the audience should feel bad for him and maybe cut him some slack on the things he did.

[@RibbitRibbit721]

FROLLO KILLED ANTS! HE IS TOTALLY UNREDEEMABLE

[@Furienna]

Abril4014: Of course, they had to do that with a disfigured character and give it a heap of unfortunate implications. But luckily for Quasimodo, all of that was fixed in the sequel.

[@carbs_r_delish]

As much as I hated that movie, I do have to agree. He was so goddamn disgusting and horrifying that he was the PERFECT villain. By far, that was one of the best villains I’ve seen, before better ones came along.

[@N.G.H.]

Even though Tangle's mother Gothel isn't part of the classic Disney villains or Disney Renaissance villains, she's pretty evil to me.

[@LowYummy]

kidnapping a baby and manipulating her into thinking you’re a good person is pretty diabolical

[@Simbala-bq5vy]

She's basically Frollo but without the lust

[@Dora-xi5ob]

@@Simbala-bq5vyshe Frollo, but not racist, ableist, etc Edit: actually she may be those things, but they don’t focus on that

[@Dora-xi5ob]

She’s a good villain

[@magical571]

yeah, i think forget about her (or tangled in general). she was straight up evil, no redemption arc or anything lol, just using her excuses to keep her trapped and using her.

[@rockinrobinn]

I think Disney needs to realise having a villain isn’t a bad thing. Showing kids that bad people exist isn’t a bad thing, it’s important for them to grow up and realise that not everybody has your best interest at heart

[@cartoonishidealism582]

I mean that’s what they did with the twist villains. “There are some bad people in the world and sometimes they look just like good people”.

[@no.9516]

At the end of the day , they never said villains dont exist they just said nuance should be applied to the villains in your life. And people like you threw tantrums and denied that irrefutable fact. The movies didnt get worse. The fanbase is just underdeveloped and entitled.

[@infinemyself5604]

​@@no.9516 Nuance should be applied, but it doesn't mean that everything is a gray area. Just because most things are ambiguous doesn't mean that there is no clear black and white at all. There are irredeemable people and people who you don't have to give a second chance. We are just tired of the idea that 'we all can get along' when it clearly doesn't always work

[@naranciagaming]

​@@no.9516 it's boring as hell to never have any actual villains. "Nuance" like this is just a lazy and pathetic justification for not making anything that's actually entertaining

[@Not-Ken-Molestina]

@@no.9516 But it's not being nuanced. It is more an attempt to show victimisation on the villain as a excuse for any actions. I think Cruella is a prime example. Of this

[@snailthelostcow63]

You know, I like the fact that Puss was unable to beat death. And it's not like he's as fearless as he was with 9 lives, he simply faced his fear which is why death immediately lost interest. Puss even breathed a sigh of relief when death let him go, showing that he still had his fear of death despite the bravado. He was glad that he's alive.

[@jelly_josss2403]

DAS WHAT IM SAYINNN

[@socriabbas454]

He technically didnt beat Death, Death leave him be because he was teaching Puss a lesson about how valuable life. Puss has been careless with using his 8 lives because he thinks he just gonna come back again the next day.

[@ClassicClown]

​@@socriabbas454yeah he said that "unable to beat death"

[@bastik.3011]

​@@socriabbas454 Death didnt actually want to teach puss a lesson, he just wanted to be finally rid of him. but he just couldn't justify taking someones life early when that person now values and respects their life. Notice how the chase only started again when puss once again tried to disrespect the gift of life

[@xXphantom9030Xx]

@@bastik.3011 When puss and perrito enter Big Jack Horners factory puss falls out of a window. Its never mentioned but a huge shard of glass nearly kills puss. Its only after that moment death shows up.

[@endarus6053]

This is also why both of the Sonic movies preformed so well. Its not only nostalgic. Its also well written and has an actually villain villain.

[@jjtheraccoon61]

The former more than the latter. A good movie does not an "actual villain villain" always make.

[@galten7361]

@Nicolaus Lasher Movie Sonic is just a cape film with furries.

[@Gamingwithdiers]

Yeah, Jim Carry is awesome

[@zeal9442]

Eggman was the only good thing about the Sonic movie. (Eggman is the only good thing about Sonic in general)

[@zeal9442]

@@galten7361 Only more unlikeable. (Sonic has never been a likeable character to me. I've always hated him.)

[@Ace_of_D14monds]

"I'm done pissing on the moon. Now i'm pissing on Disney's wishing star" -Dr. Eggman

[@ReezeZoronauto]

I miss when villains were evil because they were straight up just bad people, not simply "misguided"

[@ahmedmaklad6527]

like Death

[@jaroj1112]

@@ahmedmaklad6527 death is just doing his job. You mean jack horner

[@Kaiserboo1871]

@@ahmedmaklad6527 More like Big Jack Horner.

[@miserirken]

@@ahmedmaklad6527 Death isn't evil, he's just doing his job (and having fun at it).

[@dignelberrt]

@@ahmedmaklad6527 Death isn't a villain, his motivation was never to kill Puss, just push him to value his past lives.

[@localscissors4036]

“Death is the personification of Puss’s anxieties.” YES. Yes. That’s how you make any villain freaking great. You take everything one character stands for, their weakness, flaws, fears, and then make the villain those things.

[@niceguy160]

*Schaffrillas brother is crying in hell because my content is better* 🤣

[@TheRealNTM]

"I am Anxiety. And I don't mean metaphorically, or poetically, or thematically, or rhetorically, or in any other fancy way. I am Anxiety, straight up."

[@orrorsaness5942]

@@TheRealNTM Lol 😆

[@kyltredragmire4939]

The tried and true FOIL character. It's made great tales for thousands of years, it can still make great tales now.

[@martinaguilar5646]

It doesn't even have to be literally either like in PiB, if the hero has fear of being so strong it can harm his loved ones, make the villain be a building-sized monster that just wants to smash things.

[@michelleanderson5244]

6:35 "There are always going to be evil people in the real world." I think this right here is why we're all sorely missing the classic Disney villains of old. The whole "there's good in everyone" message kinda rings hollow in our world today, when a handful of billionaires are bleeding the rest of the world dry. We just want to escape into a fictional world where bad people get punished.

[@torytellstales]

"There's good in everyone." And "You should love everyone." are both messages I will never teach my kids, because its true, not everyone has your best interests at heart, not everyone is trustworthy, and there are people who will use the image of being nice to manipulate and harm you. Which is why the message of "Raya and the Last Dragon" felt like a slap to the face.

[@skyhideaway]

another thing in disney that i've noticed is that they're trying to be self-aware in order to appeal to the new audience. like how they started making fun of the "true love's kiss" or "act of true love" trope, or trying to subvert those kinds of tropes in very ineffective ways. Frozen did this with Anna and Hans (and they could have proven their point by simply making Anna and Hans incompatible, instead of making Hans suddenly turn evil), and with Moana (Maui being super cynical, calling Moana a princess and "if you start singing, i'm gonna throw up"). the writers really want to show us that they are smart and self-aware by making fun of the same tropes they had in their earlier movies. and while some of those tropes were problematic, most of them were completely harmless. maybe a little cliché but there's nothing wrong with cliché. the lampshading is getting too heavy, and disney needs to realize that some tropes just exist for fun, and them making fun of those tropes only makes it feel like an insecurity on their part. let characters have their true love's kisses, let them unabashedly sing songs about wanting more from life, let them have cute animal companions to talk to, or dramatically run away from home, crying. these are maybe a tad bit unrealistic, but they were the charm of older disney movies.

[@Furienna]

You are so right about most of what you said. I don't really mind that Hans turned out to be a villain, but the way that they had Elsa and Kristoff criticize Anna for her quick engagement just annoyed me. And actually, it is not like royal couples in the past normally knew each other before they got married in real life either. It would have been more realistic if Elsa had been happy that her sister found a seemingly good match and that Kristoff wouldn't have dared to say anything.

[@theinsanegamergeek]

"and while some of those tropes were problematic, most of them were completely harmless" And you've failed the argument. What you consider "harmless" others will consider problematic. Once you start making things "problematic" you will inevitably torch all creativity.

[@skyhideaway]

@@Furienna I think it's just the way they wrote Hans as being a villain that failed. it was so clear that it was a last minute decision to make him the villain because originally, Elsa was supposed to be the villain so now that they changed her to be a more sympathetic character, they needed someone else. Hans was a poorly written villain, i honestly feel like they could have either done a better job at hinting that he's the villain before the big reveal, or just made him not be compatible with Anna. like how in Enchanted, Prince Edward was supposed to be Giselle's love interest but the true loves kiss wouldn't work because Giselle established a closer bond with Robert, and didn't actually "love" Edward. that worked out well without making Edward the villain (which would have been _weird_ ).

[@skyhideaway]

@@theinsanegamergeek i get that it's a matter of perspective but there are tropes that are actually harmless. and it's not like disney cares about what's actually harmful, they've done plenty of racist shit in the past and shown stereotypical depictions of certain ethnicities in their movies, and they've been criticized for that too. and it took a while before they dropped those ideas completely. so it's not so much that disney cares about being unproblematic, they're just pandering to what they think would be appreciated in media nowadays i.e "strong" female characters with no actual personalities, "love is weak" or "true love doesn't exist" and basically going back on all the tropes they did that were comparatively harmless, compared to all the racist shit and some of the other questionable scenes (like the non-consentual kisses).

[@Furienna]

@@skyhideaway It is true that Hans only was made a villain at the last minute. But I must warn you that out of all the Disney movies that I've watched, "Enchanted" is alone about making me deeply dislike it and borderline hate it. Thus, it is not possible for me to give it much credit for anything. At least it is obvious why Hans wasn't the right man for Anna, but I don't see what was wrong with Edward. They failed to make me root for Giselle and Robert as a couple no matter how much they tried...

[@showmepotatosalad620]

It's crazy to me how Puss In Boots, of all things, came out of freaking nowhere and was so damn good it's making us question other franchises/animation studios. Big W for DreamWorks Edit: How does a positive comment on DreamWorks accomplishment devolve into a political argument? :(

[@Deathmare235]

A sequel to a fucking spin off as well

[@showmepotatosalad620]

@@Deathmare235 Right?! That's gotta be a first or at least extremely rare

[@Finozzi96]

specially because dreamworks is prioritizing good storytelling and character development unlike disney who's prioritizing woke gay agendas and minority representation instead, and thus flopping hard at the box office because of it like what happened with lightyear and strange world recently

[@patrickmarsh2538]

I always loved him

[@Photom101]

@@Finozzi96 disney doesn't prioritize that shit, they only do it for the money while they fund anti-LGBTQ politicians in the background. there's no "gay agenda" to incorporate gay and minority representation into everything, and if it does exist then it exists only in niche parts of the world. all this pandering and representation you see is mostly a reputation stunt, and sure if they do representation well and not for greed then that's a good thing, but it's clear when they only do it for the money.

[@luluzin5022]

I think Mother Gothel is the most "recent" example of a good villain in Disney movies who isn't a twist (keep in mind that Tangled released in 2011). She is shown to be evil from the start, she is extremely manipulative, AND the plot really only exists because of her kidnapping Rapunzel.

[@taylorhope4651]

But even then that's not an original new story

[@hencethebeetroot]

holy hell how has it been 12 years since tangled released

[@ihavenonameforyou1]

I mean they stole her flower and doomed her to death so she is justified despite being the villain of the story.

[@ihavenonameforyou1]

I mean they stole her flower and doomed her to death so she is justified despite being the villain of the story.

[@alien_liwil]

2010*

[@BlueBerry20071]

I unironically want a show where a a steven universe style protagonist goes around redeeming everyone, only to come across someone completely irredeemable, and have an internal struggle where he has to come to terms with their realization of; "oh. I actually have to *kill* this one, don't i?"

[@cartoonishidealism582]

I mean How To Train Your Dragon 2 kinda does this?

[@Dookieman1975]

@@cartoonishidealism582shit ur right

[@Dookieman1975]

Wanted that to be the finale. White diamond just being too evil to redeem and he learns why capital punishment is a thing and that some people cannot be reasoned with and are unwilling to change. At least pull an Ozai and take their position of power away before imprisoning until they do reform

[@zombiesalmon4997]

OH MY GOD YES VALIDATION THANK YOU FINALLY

[@superstarman9001]

You mean like Aquamarine?

[@randomuser4486]

Lightyear's villain could have been easily fixed. Just bring Buzz's dad in the game. Like, he was once a spaceranger, but one day he did something, that all the other spacerangers didn't approved off, or he always choose controversy methods. Then one day, he quit or got lost on a mission and now, he now takes finally revenge, because he want to save his son (which he always had a good conection too) from the bad spacerangers, to save him from them (in his perspective). Or he would seek revenge, because he thought they killed Buzz, with the project they made to leave the planet, while Buzz was actually just traveling through time. Boom, villain fixed!

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

That’s also a callback to Toy Story 2, where Zurg was Buzz’s father.

[@randomuser4486]

@@erickpoorbaugh6728 That was intentional from my side. I know the Toy Story 2 scene. That's why i said it should have been his dad.

[@adeleinetheartist8267]

Disney ruins what made their villains great in the first place. Disney corrupts everything that it touches. Fuck Disney.

[@torytellstales]

How funny it is that the 2nd and 3rd Toy Story movies had better and more compelling twist villains than Lightyear. Not to mention those villains actually make sense and pushes the story well!

[@Prestonnotcloneriggy]

i thougt that lightyear was a great movie ( yes i sed it FIGHT ME )

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

If you think about it, Puss n Boots isn't just antithetical to current Disney, Jack Horner himself is a direct personification of Disney itself as an entity. A charming little child that eventually develops into a remorseless giant churning things out in a factory, who has no means to produce or achieve anything meaningful on his own without the assistance of workers he abuses but are loyal to him anyway and a treasure trove of others' assets he explicitly misuses.

[@Otval_bashky]

Jack Horner is honest

[@the_tactician9858]

Add to that that his goal in life is to literally steal all of the magic in the world, so that others can have no access to it (has anyone seen Lucasfilm recently? Last I saw them with was talking to Dis- uh oh...) And they would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky Dreamworks movies!

[@NotAGoodUsername360]

Horner is a deliberate contrast with Lord Farquaad, who was ALSO and explicit personification of Renaissance Disney and the problems the Dreamworks crew had with them. It's acknowledgement that Disney has changed from a totalitarian ruler to an abusive glutton.

[@axlorg89]

I 100% believe the Ethical bug talking about Ethical business practices was a jab at Disney

[@CarloNassar]

More like lots of companies.

[@castleguard_of_xbox360]

Anyone else impressed by the amount of different expressions Shaff pulls from an under 10-minute scene of a crab singing?

[@renthewizard]

Me too

[@noname-lb3sg]

True

[@alamrasyidi4097]

it kinda seems like he really liked him

[@ReAnnieMator]

Ever heard about Morshu?

[@henrikfoersom9649]

@@ReAnnieMator “Lamp Oil”

[@alexrexaros9837]

The Monkey Paw curled and you got one of the most mid villains Disney ever created.

[@magical571]

was thinking the same lol, and ironically he could have been a good sympathetic villiain, even if made not to be redeemed. I can totally see magnifico as getting progressively paranoid and careful about wishes, show us some past wishes being granted and then misfiring terribly, or some ouright damaging wishes that a person would never say out loud, but he gets to see in the orbs. or just, different wishes being mutually contradictory, so you cannot grant both, and which makes him question people's intentions when given all they seemingly wanted. There was overflowing rational for him to not grant all the wishes in the world lol. or be wary of some individuals actually pursuing certain wishes even if on their own and not aided by magnifico (not every wish is an overal good for the world, i don't know why disney chose to boil it down to the most bare bones depiction of this....when even aladdin so many years ago handled the idea of wishes in a better way...), more than reasonable. And it would become a little overwhelming to filter it all once you established yourself as this king who embraces everyone's wishes at 18, it would very easily feed on his inner concerns.

[@yellowstickers394]

Well, to be honest. It just seems like villain aren’t allowed to be “pure evil” anymore. Nowadays, they often get dismissed, because villains need to have “depth”, “ulterior motives”, or be “morally gray” now. I personally find villains who are just pure evil, horrible, and irredeemable to be more entertaining. Not that those with certain depth aren’t. Villains like the Joker, the Wicked Witch, Lord Voldemort, Hades (Disney), Bill Cipher, William Afton, etc. Villains who are just horrible and absolutely irredeemable, but they have fans who like them as a villain. Now of course, there are still pure evil villains whose backstory shaped them, but they’re still chaotic and irredeemable. Edit: Just thought I should clarify what I meant in case of any confusion. With the villains I’ve listed above and idea of villains who are pure evil, I am not saying that they do not have depth or motivation. It’s just that their depth and motivation are different from that of a villain who one would be considered gray. I feel like because of how evil certain types of villains can be, they sometimes get called one dimensional or not realistic. Even though we see from history and society itself that that type of evil does exist. Not saying that gray villains shouldn’t exist, I do enjoy those type of villains. I also feel like pure evil villains are good in their own right, but perhaps are not as appreciated anymore.

[@Rikrobat]

It's a shame because sometimes a character being pure evil is more fun in a fictionalized setting. The live-action Maleficent wasn't "bad" as a story per se, but Maleficent was always more entertaining and engaging when she was an all-powerful fairy who was known to be prickly and decided to take revenge on a child because she wasn't invited to a party (which for fairies is a huge slight). Cletus Cassidy from Spiderman is another character who is just better when he's allowed to be an unrepentant serial killer who is made much more dangerous when he bonds with an alien symbiote and lives up to his name Carnage. Trying to force a tragic backstory onto him just takes away what makes him interesting and terrifying. This is a villain that Spiderman needed the help of allies and other villains to stop, and Carnage being so simple and bloodthirsty is a great contrast against Venom, who is more complicated because Eddie Brock doesn't completely bond with the symbiote.

[@mgames3209]

I mean, anything or person who is immortal and has powers, eg: Bill Cipher, Hades, has nothing to stop them from being evil

[@asterling4]

it's just important to remember that not every story needs a villain. and if the latest storytelling trend is to tell stories about conflicts between humans who love each other and how we fuck each other up and then how we repair that damage, a decrease in villains is just going to be a natural consequence of that, because those stories can work beautifully and be very well-told without a villain in sight. there's a conflict to drive the plot, but you don't need a villain for that. it's not because of some censorship, or villains not being "allowed" to be pure evil. pure evil villains just don't _work_ for every story. no character is good in a vaccuum; they're only as good as their ability to serve their story. this is true of every character, antagonists included. and good writers will know that, and disney, for all their crimes at the corporate level, hires a _lot_ of good writers. if you like super-evil villains a lot, that is fine, but that is a reflection of the type of story you like, and it is not a valid criticism of the types of story you _don't_ like. you can't judge one genre by the standards of another. plenty of movies and TV shows in the last five years have featured fun, not-super-nuanced, silly over-the-top villains if that is what you like. disney just hasn't been telling as much of that type of story, which is fine. some of us really enjoy it. it's ok that you don't enjoy it -- but make no mistake, they're doing it to appeal to an audience that wants that type of story. a lot of disney fans are growing up, so maybe that's part of it.

[@yellowstickers394]

@@asterling4 I think you’re misinterpreting what I said. I wasn’t saying that every story needs a villain or that pure evil villains work for every story. My point was that nowadays, villains (like the ones I’ve listed before) get dismissed because it seems like people are looking for villains that are morally gray. And by not being allowed, I mean that people don't find pure evil villains as interesting as they were before. Not anything about censorship or any of the sort that you've mentioned. Also, no where was I criticizing stories that I supposedly don’t like. I like other types of villains, but I just find pure evil villains more interesting. I am also a bit confused on your last paragraph, because where was I judging different genres? I never said that I didn’t like other type of villains, I just pointed out the difference with how pure evil villains and morally gray villains are viewed now. I never said anything about not liking certain types of stories either. Pointing out how different type of villains are viewed doesn’t reflect on my own opinion on certain stories/characters. Me also pointing out the type of villains that I enjoy the most also does not mean that I don’t enjoy other types. It seems like you’re just making assumptions. I also do enjoy the different types of stories that Disney is making, never stated or implied otherwise.

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

Also, in real life, not all villains are morally gray. Some people do evil things because of trauma, or misguided goals, or some other sympathetic motive. But some people are just jerks.

[@DaniB_Souza]

After watching Puss in Boots 2 I realized how much I missed villains that are just plain evil: no sad backstory, no tragical twist, nothing besides a person who is just rotten to the core, knows it and LOVES being evil!

[@rougestarlight4308]

Same

[@pyronuke4768]

Agreed!

[@andrewgreeb916]

Unrepentant evil, the easiest way to write a villain, and the most fun. As much as I love a redemption arc one villain has to stay the course.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​​@@andrewgreeb916 I'd argue Pure Evil villains aren't easy to write at all. Sure, their lack of tragic backstory or complicated motivation cuts down on some of the work but they have to make up for all of that with charisma and pizazz, and _that_ can be really difficult to write.

[@slsthewriter1299]

What ever do you mean?? Jack had a backstory! He had a really good childhood and inherited so much wealth, but he just wanted magic! Lol.

[@misterzygarde6431]

I like to imagine that the villains of the Renaissance films would bully the twist villains.

[@chasehedges6775]

👍👍. The Renaissance Disney villains were awesome. The twist villains are mediocre jokes

[@yourlocalsnakewithahat1639]

Omg YES

[@thatonepokemonwhateveritwa8371]

Lmao yes

[@bababababababa6124]

Jafar would make that prince mf from Frozen (forgot his name) look like a b**ch

[@kieranstark7213]

That would be so hilarious (in an unironically good way)!

[@sazdc3343]

17:38 hearing this now that wish has been released and the villain apparently sucks is extremely funny

[@shibumi-tanuki]

Puss in Boots 2 legitimately helped me a lot personally. I went in without ever expecting to see my struggles with a debilitating fear of death represented and then _seeing_ the protagonist come to terms with it???????????????? Honestly, it made me tear up

[@OstianOwl]

I find it so ironic that Disney as a company won't hesitate to capitalize off of their legacy villains by slapping them on any shirt, board game, scented candle or whatever they can get their branding on but Disney as an animation studio seems terrified of creating a new villain in the same vein as those same ones that seem to populate every Hot Topic or BoxLunch.

[@stwbmc98]

A Disney villain designed by committee to be on a Hot Topic t-shirt doesn’t necessarily sound great either

[@realjoemavro]

I've been in Hot Topic dozens of times and never seen any classic Disney villain merch, I mostly just see anime stuff now. I did see Twilight and Justin Beeber merch once though.

[@Zoodude254]

To the point that there's a literal board game called Villainous based on Classic Disney characters!

[@amandaslough125]

@@realjoemavro The villains are used in stuff like the Dreamlight Valley game, or children's books and such. Still milked but in other areas.

[@SagittariusAyy]

@@Zoodude254 Is it any good, tho? (And also, there’s the imageboard-borne Disney Villains Victorious)

[@grfrjiglstan]

I remember seeing a video on Jack Horner where someone asked, “Why doesn’t Disney make completely irredeemable villains anymore?” And some other guy responded, “Because they are one now.”

[@corundumkrabble5035]

LMAOOOOOOO

[@andresanguianozuniga6798]

D A M N

[@sonicstar917]

How ironic. In trying to rid of irredeemable villains, they gave us their greatest one yet.

[@cjtimmons5498]

I don’t get it?

[@zandithshloper2005]

@@cjtimmons5498 Disney is evil.

[@danaslitlist1]

The thing with generation trauma stories like Strange World is that the writers fail to realize or portray that trauma may be a reason but it is not an excuse for behavior. And I understand that they don’t always need to show an actual apology but for a story that is so heavy handed in it’s message of “healing” it was sorely missed. Jaegar not actually apologizing with the words “I’m sorry I let my ego get the better of me and led me to abandoning you” was glaring. His just “oop I’m here now to help” at the end felt hollow and there was absolutely no reason for his son to forgive him just because he showed up in that moment. Apologies are necessary and if you’re going to base your entire plot around a huge wrong being done and it leading to trauma (which is another part of the base of the plot) you need to have that! By the end of Strange World I was even more pissed tbh. I hated Jaegar, I hated that we were supposed to forgive him, I hate that he reinserted himself in his wife’s life! I hated it.

[@nervousbreakdown711]

Jaeger didn’t deserve his redemption. At least Alma was genuinely sorry and was trying to protect her family after severe trauma. What was his excuse for being so awful? Anyone who has had that self-absorbed of a parent knows they are not sorry, will never be sorry, and deserves as little contact as possible

[@magical571]

"“I’m sorry I let my ego get the better of me and led me to abandoning you"....i don't need to have the message sponfed like that you know?....it was more than clear....seriously, show don't tell? maybe? just maybe? it actually made me take it a litle more seriously than if he suddenly grew the emotional background to give an apology like that given his personality and the context. Being a "hands on action" dude, of course his way of fixing something is doing something, being there, rather than talking. I would have rolled my eyes so hard if they did what you suggest...someone like searcher for sure would go on a conversation, but jaeger? in just like what, 24 hours? after so many years! the dude is a literal grandpa now! my own dad is a worse example of him, and i know the best you could EVER expect of someone like him is what jaeger did, and that was generous. Just because the movie is about trama it doesn't mean they have to stop, hold hands, and start apologizing to each other necesarily (it can, or it cannot, depends on the actual characters being portrayed), and this doesn't mean that they can't reach some point of agreement either, it's clear that their relation wasn't perfect but that a seed for reconection was planted with him coming back: that's perfectly fine for the time that passes in universe on the middle and ending arcs.

[@magical571]

​@@nervousbreakdown711 i agree, he would have never said sorry, i know how it feels. But that's why i was ok with him just showing some ego set aside by finally going along with searcher's wishes at least for once. it was naive enough for this type of movie, but not brain dead naive to delve into an apology like the op siggests: with that, i would have rolled my eyes into outer space lol. a guy like that would have never changed enough in merely 24 hours at best, we would have to skip forward to therapy sessions in the future or something lol. Jaeger's issues were much more destructive for his family than someone like alma, since it was a very narcicistic root, very much his huge ego and stuborness getting in the way at any cost. Alma was much more redeemable ina reasonable amount of time since her core concerns were ultimately surrounding her family and their roots, not just some egotistical shit, even if it of course damaged her family greatly, tldr: an apology works with alma. With jaeger, i'll take a gesture like going along with his son's plan for once, and not a full on word for word apology or it would be stupidly naive, i would have to stop the movie right there otherwise lol

[@Linkaro2]

What if this is Disney way of answering the complaint of twist villains? "OH, people don't like our villians? Fine! Then no more villians for them."

[@marcoanaya7123]

"If Disney executives genuinely think that there's no room for a villain, then that's just bad storytelling." -Schaffrillas

[@Yeahimamusicalfan]

That’s stupid. Just because a story doesn’t have a villain doesn’t mean it’s bad storytelling. It just sounds like they lack the skills of storytelling is all.

[@j-2-da-man932]

“Well GEE, Disney! Sorry I want my movie based on the concept of adventure serials to have stakes and an actual villainous presence rather than the conflict just being a loop warm rehash of the familia strife that was done infinitely better in Encanto.” -Also Schaffrillas

[@andrewgreeb916]

you're really shooting yourself in the foot there, villains are a great narrative tool. When you are writing you can't afford to just throw away parts of your "tool belt".

[@gaelmendez2798]

Aunestly I would hang that note to be reminded there’s always a time to make a villan

[@cammoore___]

Exactly. A hero is only as good as the villain.

[@Experiment-qq8mq]

I loved how DreamWorks managed to liberate Puss without defeating or humiliating a villain as good as Death. The fact that he's still out there and remains terrifying is awesome because we need to see more of Death in the Shrek universe.

[@dylanzlol7293]

Death making a cameo in shrek 5 everytime that someone's in great danger?

[@LogeenthLive]

They really handled the ending for that movie very well. At the end of the day, Death still could've dispatched Puss if he wanted to - he just stopped doing it because Puss finally learned to appreciate the life he has now rather squander it away.

[@govinpillai3475]

I love how it’s inevitable that he wins. He just chose to let Puss live because there was no ego left hor him to take down.

[@MisterHeroman]

Only as a cameo. Too much focus might muddy it.

[@rahn45]

When Death stated that he wasn't metaphorical, it was to inform the audience straight up that he wouldn't be defeated; as it reinforced everything else he said earlier in the film: That it wasn't bravado, it was simply inevitability.

[@BlueGuyTube]

Spoiler for Strange World You can really feel how the lack of a villain affected the climax of Strange World. How the girl captain just betrayed them when they tried to stop the operation but has a change of heart literally 5 minutes later when she understands what's really going on. It really felt like an artificial way to add conflict to the climax, and they forgot to develop a character around that conflict, which is usually what the villain does in a movie. They could have made the twist of the world being a giant living creature halfway through instead of it being at the very end and then have the group split between who wants to continue the operation and those who don't. Something similar to Atlantis, which is a much better movie.

[@maadtee6281]

It failed because it was badly written not because it lacked a villain

[@Aerodumb]

I want to see a villain that embodies the concept of self doubt and anxiety. Something creepy that would talk to the main character at night and wouldn't let them sleep.

[@maxxpower3d6]

What I liked most about DEATH in Puss In Boots 2 is how he was acting chiefly out of a personal vendetta. Most of the time, the Grim Reaper is portrayed as either sympathetic or emotionally distant to those he (or she) comes to collect. So, it was an interesting change of pace to see this Death come after Puss just to make him pay for eight lives of mockery.

[@anerrorhasoccurred8727]

A common depiction of death, across cultures, is that he likes to make wagers and essentially “play” with people’s lives. Death Wolf could have reaped Puss’ soul at any time, but lost his chance bc he just _had_ to turn it into a hunt. Very consistent portrayal.

[@hitthere7722]

@@anerrorhasoccurred8727I mean both are frequent portrayals of death, you have 1. The calm and reassuring death, who helps those who pass along accept their passing, and help them find closure 2. The cheeky asshole death, who makes it into a challenge or plays a rigged game, usually offering eternal life, or similar, if you win

[@firelight4098]

@@hitthere7722 And the book, Reaper Man included both. The original Death being the calm/emotionally distant one, and a protagonist. While the New Death was cocky, saying things like "lesser lives", and "you never wanted to rule" and literally wearing a crown. It also included a comedic death, the Death of Rats. And a cosmic, detached-from-everything death, Azrael. And a more human incarnation of death, Bill Door.

[@death8557]

@@firelight4098 *_THERE MUST BE NO CROWN, ONLY THE HARVEST. WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN_*

[@ccs4959]

Grim is a he, like it’s canon.

[@kjdee140]

Jack Horner and Death were a breath of fresh air in the animation industry. One was an irredeemable psychopath. The other was a terrifying force of nature.

[@MatameVideos]

Jack Horner is a wonderful throwback to old-school villains: He has a larger than life personality, is having a lot of fun through the entire film, is vaguely queer coded (xD) and is irredeemable evil. Just so entertaining to watch

[@crispybanana3198]

don't forget Goldi, she was talking with a british accent and that scared me shitless

[@AngelWingsYT]

I work at the movies n this was out next to strange world. A family with a 3-4 year old was debating which kid movie to see n i told them that while puss in boots was my favorite n a very good movie i wouldnt recommend taking a young child to it with how intense n terrifying the villians are

[@harry.t9523]

I wouldn’t say Jack Horner was a Psychopath, but rather a Sociopath. A Sociopath has no feelings of empathy or remorse for anyone around them and are perfectly fine and willing to do some heinous things. A Psychopath on the other hand doesn’t even have any feelings for themselves let alone others and are even happier doing some of the most heinous (often violent and murderous) acts imaginable. I wish that terms such as “Socio” and “Sociotic” existed alongside “Psycho” and “Psychotic”.

[@natebox4550]

@@MatameVideosJust a question, in what way is Jack queer coded? Even vaguely?

[@josephmarcha5410]

I remember leaving the theater after watching puss in boots the last wish, and as I was walking out I heard death’s whistle theme from another theater and I genuinely got scared. That’s how intimidating death was and is

[@princesspikachu3915]

The Wolf/Death isn’t a villain though in my opinion. He is merely a force of nature that is just trying to do his job and is only trying to take Puss’s last life because Puss didn’t appreciate his other lives and was selfishly trying to hold on to his semi-immortality because of his ego. When Puss no longer had his selfish ego and began to appreciate what he still had, Death left him be to “live his life well” respecting his change and growth as a person-cat.

[@tiablue9106]

I wouldn't call him fully evil since he does back off in the end but he himself acknowledges he's cheating by tryna kill puss before his time. he was even kinda disappointed he learned his lesson bc killing him wouldn't be fun anymore. again, not full-on evil but I mean he wants to kill the protag for a (relatively) small reason

[@PentaCrab]

Death actively tormented Puss and tried to kill him prematurely instead of letting him die naturally while he vocally expressed his enjoyment on hunting him down, not to mention one of Puss' lives calls him out for cheating and he just goes "Shht, don't tell". Yeah, no, he's not merely a force of nature, or an anti-hero, or an antagonist, or any other fancy word. He's a *villain,* straight-up.

[@magical571]

he reminds me of kindred's wolf. as soon as he stopped "fighting/avoiding" death, then death itself stopped pursuing

[@AvalynTheAccursed]

I agree outside of the point with Luca I think the whole point of that movie is that it WASN'T dramatic. It was just two fish boys trying to find their place in a human civilization. The movie is just meant to be wholesome innocence with no real high stakes. I don't think Luca could have benefitted from a genuine, straight-up villain, and that a simple bully-type character fits perfectly with what Luca was trying to go for.

[@marocat4749]

Yeah it a cut coming o age romance story in world where th point is that th build up mistrust ba basically everyone is th villain. And the unjustified fear and witchhunts. That even gt in thir relationship. The villain is bigotry and th point is to not let themslve ovrcome with fear of that.

[@BigMara2]

​@Maro Cat what?

[@traktor420]

@@marocat4749bruh what are you saying?

[@TheUltima_Werewolf]

​@@marocat4749 Huh?

[@hannawhite7605]

​@@marocat4749 ? It not a romantic story

[@lukeredinger753]

Big jack horner's lines of "you wouldn't shoot a puppy, would you jack?" "Yeah, in the face, why" and also "its adorable how you think that would work. Don't you know I'm dead inside?". Really nailed home what his character is trying to be. No redeamability, no twist, just a simply and delightfully unhinged villain. That, along with the animation style, in-depth characters and compelling story really make the movie stand out. And, of course, death is the coolest charater in recent movies by a landslide Edit: big jack horners lines

[@PosiHangsOut]

He said “yeah, in the face, why”, not “yes I will, want to see me do it”

[@superbodoque7860]

yep, wanna know why Frieza is still active in the Dragon Ball series? Cuz people love how irredeemably evil he is, his cunningness and cruelty makes you want to hate the guy but his charisma makes him your favorite (presumably) we need more of those, they don't need to be super deep so long as you make them fun to watch and a legit threat, just like Jack Horner

[@lukeredinger753]

@@PosiHangsOut you're absolutely right

[@ariesarchdemon]

"What did I do to deserve this?! I mean WHAT SPECIFICALLY?!"

[@para_cxsm]

"Ah you know I never had much as a kid just loving parents and stability in a mansion and a thriving baked goods enterprise for me to inherent useless crap like that"

[@Tatsu4242]

My whole problem with Lightyear was how in the second Toy Story they had that “I am your father” moment. And I was hoping they’d follow through with that or something. But no, future version of himself…

[@ShadowBear4670]

Maybe Pixar in 1999 just wanted to do haha funny ahh star wars reference

[@hunterolaughlin]

In the cartoon, they do the whole “I am your father” routine and Zurg pulls a 180 and gains the upper hand in battle against Buzz. So the “I am your father” is nothing more than a joke and not to be taken seriously or as canon.

[@Boltevega]

I feel like disney is afraid of villains currently because they don't want to make a villain that "accidentally" has some sort of aspect to it that'll get them "cancelled". I have no proof for this but it wouldn't be out of the question. Especially considering (valid) criticism of past villains. Most of them were products of their time and yeah that sucks but given the knowledge we currently have + the resources disney could utilize to make villains non-offensive if they so happen to belong to or have traits of a marginalized group, its absolutely bizarre they're so adamantly afraid of it

[@adeleinetheartist8267]

Disney is afraid of villains, because Disney IS the villain. Disney is a corrupt company.

[@anothermiddleschoolburnout8816]

You got your proof in The Little Mermaid's remake. They removed a third of the song, specifically the third where Ursula makes misogynistic comments. "How Poor Unfortunate Souls got butchered" by Astor Rhymemaster is a good video to watch if you want to know more.

[@LARVAenEspanol]

*It’s actually insane that we live in a time where having a villain in a movie is different and refreshing.*

[@TRivan-kx2bi]

Villains today aren't allowed to be evil. They have to be misunderstood and relatable. Today's writers think Good vs Evil is "outdated".

[@miaruuu8375]

@@TRivan-kx2bi Well, always having a cartoony villain isn't necessarily a good thing. If a human character is a villain, it's only natural for them to have nuanced characteristics, right? The villains in puss are supposed to be cartoony because they're based on fairytales, and I appreciate the amount of depth they put into them. Villains are absolutely allowed to be evil, the reason why "good vs evil" is outdated is that it's already been done a thousand times.

[@TRivan-kx2bi]

@@miaruuu8375 I'm not saying that a relatable villain isn't good, but they shouldn't make every villain relatable. The reason Good vs Evil has been done a thousand times is because it works. I love a great Good vs Evil story. Seeing an evil character be defeated by a good character can be quite cathartic to audiences.

[@Caramelsomething]

Why is this bolded

[@miaruuu8375]

@@TRivan-kx2bi Part of the reason why I don't like them too much is that it's a bit tropey and predictable. There's only so much you can do to turn something old interesting again.

[@BossXygman]

The funny thing is is that The Lion King had Simba go through a character arc about his father's death for the whole movie while also having one of the most memorable Disney villains. They've done it before, so they can do it again.

[@davidkahnt2632]

Hamlet was a great play.

[@KyrieFortune]

Not only they can have both, having both is actually great for their pockets, TLK still is the highest grossing animated movie of all time

[@Lauren_210]

Exactly! That is why I consider the Disney Renaissance to be my favorite Disney era and also its best era in my opinion. They had that great balance of a strong lead protagonist AND also great villains!

[@royalgambit4508]

They have done it before, but I doubt the “creative” team at Disney now has the ability or drive to make a good villain

[@user-mx4is4fx3c]

Granted, the lion king isn't great in that regard, as the story and pacing really falls apart after Mufasa's death. And Scar is kind of turned into a joke.

[@jaguarj1942]

The idea that there aren’t any truly bad people is a really bad message. Sometimes you have to accept that cutting people out of your life is for the best and that giving someone many chances to change is a terrible idea.

[@adnaP_esreveR]

Sometimes there really AREN'T any truly bad people, however that shouldn't be the message of every single movie out there.

[@HumanoidDerpling]

There are people who have completely given in to evil, but the only people who encounter them basically ever are murder and kidnapping victims. Remember, a person's ideology does not make the person pure evil or pure good. Hitler was without a doubt pure evil, but the average Nazi was just doing what he or she truly thought was right. One's ideology or beliefs is no reason to cut him or her out of your life.

[@ethanstump]

@@adnaP_esreveR i mean, even when you get to the level of "these are traditions borne out of cultural trauma that are deeply flawed, have shown to be harmful and there's many people who still haven't fully grasped why they are harmful or that there is a better way", there's clearly MF'rs out here that are fully aware not only that their actions are harmful, want their actions to harm even more people, and clearly make sure that the better way never gets off the ground. while my cynicism tends to get in my way sometimes, i genuinely believe that's why the "climate change" proxies don't get off the ground in any meaningful way to pointing fingers, because Disney is already receiving cataclismic pushback from people like desantis, and the "FUCK IT" response only really works when you don't have anything to lose, which is why smaller corporations are able to do it while the big corporations just sort of fade into the background. it's why dreamworks as this smaller entity is able to meaningfully make art, while disney can only make money.

[@magical571]

@@adnaP_esreveR yeah, agreed. Plus, they don't have to be evil to need some distance from them, or to see them as antagonistic to you.

[@kahlzun]

i love the whistling (lietmotif?) that Death has. Such a "Huh, whats that? OH SHITS GOTTEN REAL" trigger to escalate a scene

[@thatonemessyartist1760]

I think the main issue Disney is currently facing is the fact that they want you to see everyone’s perspective. In real life, you don’t always understand everyone’s motives or perspectives, and it’s okay to do the same in movies. The audience doesn’t need to know the tragic backstory of the villain and feel sympathy for them. One thing that can make a villain so scary is your lack of understanding. Unpredictable villains are terrifying.

[@killme5630]

Yea, understanding leads to lack of fear and less threats from the villain

[@KetsubanSolo]

Also when you're trying to account for every single perspective, it muddles up the storytelling and ironically becomes a lot more boring. I think Song of the Sea does a really good job of getting us to understand everyone through a combination of keeping their motivations simple, and also using other characters to explore those existing aspects further.

[@stevenhiggins3055]

Not to mention that some people really are just motivated by greed and selfishness. A lot like the classic Disney villains.

[@FezFindie]

It's also its own valuable lesson that, while it may be good to briefly try to understand why someone's the way they are, sometimes there's either no time or some people are just plain evil a-holes for no much reason~

[@bluesbest1]

@@stevenhiggins3055 Yup. Consider Captain Hook, whose motivations, fears, and general goals are outlined completely without detracting from the rest of the movie. He's fully respected by his crew, as well as being somewhat classy, so it's not like he's a one-dimensional villain, he's just...a pirate. In fact, considering Peter's personality, Hook might very well be the first instance of a not-quite-villainous antagonist.

[@chatteringbox7583]

Encanto being responsible for the "personal drama" archetype in Disney despite being a good film has the same energy as the first Shrek movie being responsible for the wave of crude humor and pop culture references

[@mr.lizard666]

True

[@korinoriz]

"Personal drama" has always kinda been a thing though, can you really pin it on Encanto?

[@s0nn1]

​@Rogue Slushy I guess they mean it being the main focus in a movie made by a big company, a lot of these things have been done by indie filmmaker WAY before these big companies, so I guess that's what they wanted to say

[@lilac3266]

@@korinoriz I think they mean it’s one of the first big animated movies to focus on the family and it’s dynamics rather than have them fight a foe. Again all the problems were caused by the people living in the house so the plot was literally solving their own personal problems

[@alim.9801]

And Shrek being responsible for stunt casting celebrities as voice actors

[@ClayMaster001]

17:40 oh how that aged

[@neontricity]

I really like movies that center around the villains such as Hocus Pocus. Hocus Pocus was great because we got a clear insight into the history of the three witches and why they do what they do, as well as a compelling fight against the protagonists. To top it off, the witches were hilarious which made it just that bit more compelling. I do miss the pure evil that the Sanderson sisters had.

[@ob2kenobi388]

The worst part about the "Zurg is Buzz from the future" twist is that anyone who's seen Toy Story 2 knows that, canonically, Zurg is Buzz's father.

[@mariak5096]

Conclusion: Buzz is his own father

[@clean.zero.]

@@mariak5096 but thats just a theory, a film theory"

[@CrookiNari]

"butbutbut it's just a Star Wars reference!" so? you think this new development is better? those people are annoying.

[@ToaArcan]

I liked the way the cartoon played with that, having him state the lines to Buzz just to mess with his head a little. Cartoon Zurg was a delight.

[@ob2kenobi388]

@@mariak5096 Buzz cucked his own dad. Legend.

[@emmagaroutte9211]

In a weird way, I think that’s why Gravity Falls is such an amazing show: Bill Cipher was the catalyst that turned the series from great to profound. Because he attacks his victims through their psyche, Ford, Dipper, Mabel, and Stan are forced to confront issues they’ve pushed aside until then, things more dangerous than the weirdness they face every day - generational trauma, mistrust, and fear of the future. By the second season, all of them grow wiser, stronger, and more united as a result! In fact, the entire town grows in unity… because the heroes learn to overcome the villain that sparked the chaos in the first place!

[@jbcatz5]

Belos in Owl House as well. He’s the head of a long established order, a witch finder out of his own time and place irreversibly affected by the magic he detests so much. He knows how to play people, keep them on side by honeyed words or veiled threats and does so as a trusted public figure. His system is the norm, which Luz and her friends have to fight against.

[@unionpacific3863]

At least Disney Animated Show care for giving us great villains

[@Jaydee-wd7wr]

Yeah that’s what I was going to say, Disney still knows how to do villains, they just put them in their shows, Belos, The Core and Bill are all fantastic to watch.

[@jturner2577]

​@@Jaydee-wd7wr Although in the case of the Core I wish we got more screentime with it as the Core itself. Or saw the other minds assimilated into it.

[@jturner2577]

​@@jbcatz5 He even knows how to manipulate a literal god (The Collector) and nearly took over it's body.

[@thetzar2573]

Strange World needed to more focus on the wonder of actually exploring and appreciating the whole "We live on a giant living creature" plot. Less blatant generational trauma, more subtle learning about stuff in general.

[@Marcomanexists]

The renaissance Disney villains were so damn good, always the best part of the movie. Looking at them now it’s honestly sad

[@nolleg3035]

Jack Horner made me realize how much I missed evil villains, no plottwist, no hidden motives, just evil.

[@stoopidpursun8140]

"Yeah, in the face, why?" alone makes him a better villain than anything Disney has barfed out.

[@PeanutTechno]

Idea: An evil villain like that, but their "hidden motive" amounts to "Ok this one bad thing you did was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I'm feeling at least twice as spiteful as usual today. Aside from that, this is all just for fun"

[@redpanda6497]

He had a motivation though. Everything was handed to him as a kid and when Pinocchio, a magical being got more attention than him he got mad and decided to take the magic.

[@countdooku7133]

That's why fireza from dragon ball is one of my favourite villans of all time he is pure evil he was laughing while he destroyed an entire planet while 99% of its population was there that's the type of villany that is missing from most modern movies imo

[@IcyDiamond]

@@redpanda6497 The commenter means some hidden secret motive that makes him sympathetic

[@c00mgoblin]

Oh my god Yzma is a CLASSIC and perfect villain in my eyes. She has the perfect blend of menacing, funny, and memorable moments that make her one of the best villains in the playbook.

[@DiscoTimelordASD]

Eartha Kitt was just an amazing woman🦸‍♀️

[@sockpuppy8811]

From memories, the early 2000 Disney movies for all their flaws did give us good antagonists and villains: Yzma, Jumba, Long John Silver, Denahi, . I mean even the tepid Home of the Range gave us Alameda Slim who was the most memorable thing of the movie. (Of course there is also Rourke, who is pratically the prototype of the Disney Twist Villain. But We don't talk about Rourke...)

[@amberhernandez]

Yzma had enough charisma to carry throughout an entire Disney _series_ , something a lot of other villains didn't translate to when Disney tried printing more money from turning every film into a series after release!

[@oof9762]

PULL THE LEVER KRONK!!

[@3s_muycar0]

@@amberhernandez this! I still wish Disney would reconsider making the first draft of empotres new grove. Snuff Out the Light has a lot of potential to be a memorable villain song

[@tanakisoup2246]

There is *technically* a villain in wish. There’s an antagonist, but absolutely no villain. Magnifico lis literally not evil for 70% of the movie before a flip switches and he decides to be evil all of the sudden

[@Furienna]

Oh bull, he was already manipulating the people and stealing their wishes and parts of their personalities when the movie started.

[@tanakisoup2246]

@@Furienna yeah sure, but the people were willingly handing over their wishes. He never forced anyone to live in his kingdom, every single one of them came on their own, or was born there and chooses not to leave

[@Furienna]

@@tanakisoup2246 That is what manipulation is: he managed to convince them to hand over their wishes. But it worked on the same principle as it would have if someone had tricked you into signing all your money over to him. People would see such a person as a thief and would be right to do so, and that is what King Magnifico is as well. It is very debatable too how "willingly" it was if everybody around you pushed you into doing this. Rosas functioned as a cult by that point, where the leader couldn't stand any dissent and people were brainwashed. And again, Magnifico wouldn't have been evil in the end if he hadn't been a villain from the start...

[@manaze85]

Man, that prediction about the villain in Wish and Elemental was on point.

[@echevy1046]

Wish was a bad example, but at least elemental was the last good Disney movie.

[@coopahtroopah1175]

Man, I really didn’t realize how much I’ve missed good animated villains until I saw Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. The fact that it manages to have three villains (one of whom becoming one of the most intimidating and iconic villains of all time overnight) that fit three different archetypes and execute them each FLAWLESSLY made me realize how much it sucks that most other animated movies lately don’t even have a single good one. I hope Dreamworks is entering a renaissance that inspires every animation studio to improve their craft.

[@amusedapple4933]

I’m assuming you mean death?

[@m4rcyonstation93]

@@amusedapple4933 what

[@amusedapple4933]

@@m4rcyonstation93 the op talked about one of the three villains becoming iconic overnight. I was asking if it was death

[@m4rcyonstation93]

@@amusedapple4933 Oh ok i havent watched pb2 sorry

[@amusedapple4933]

@@m4rcyonstation93 it’s a good movie

[@zalybrainlessgenius503]

Personal struggle doesn't mean you can't have a villain. In fact, best villains DIRECTLY REFLECT heroes' personal struggles.

[@theloganator5738]

And better yet, it can be a mirror into how the hero can turn out if they don't deal with their struggles in a healthy way.

[@austinfletchermusic]

Puss in Boots TLW literally does this with all of their villains, too! The crime family deals with Puss' own loner status, Jack Horner mirrors the rise of personal myth and self-aggrandizing (Horner lies to seem more evil, whereas Puss lied to seem more heroic), and Death is self-evidently the fear of it. Another #PussSweep moment

[@randompromises1038]

​@@austinfletchermusicliterally how smart was it for Puss's fear of mortality to be personified so he has to confront it and come to terms with facing death itself

[@Artista_Frustrado]

another reason i feel Disney villain-less stories tend to not work: Only Villains are allowed to be confident & proud of who they are from the get-go; the total lack of confidence works in Encanto because that IS the source of the Generational trauma, they have to fake confidence but they know there's no way a single family can sustain an entire town that's also why everyone loves The Rock singing how much of a gigachad he is in Moana

[@thearbiter3369]

I think crab boy is a very close villain but I feel thiugh either he is just mentioned prior to damn near meeting him as he is the collector of all things valuable or “shiny”. Even just leaving traces of his gold or giant leg prints could have been amazing to find

[@Crow_Rising]

Dreamworks was created specifically to not be Disney, and very specifically out of outright spite towards Disney. There's something poetic about them more or less biding their time all these years and then just when Disney is letting their guard down and putting out subpar storytelling, Dreamworks strikes out with an absolute banger that puts Disney to shame because it's doing everything right that Disney always used to to right but doesn't anymore.

[@redhill3248]

always loved dreamworks

[@HighSlayerRalton]

Biding their time? What about shrek, Kung Fu Panda, and How To Train Your Dragon?

[@Crow_Rising]

@@HighSlayerRalton All before Disney started putting out garbage. They've not really had an opportunity to show up Disney properly until recently.

[@d1kgaws12]

@@HighSlayerRalton Unfortunately, only Shrek seems to be super mainstream. I THEORIZE one of the reasons being Boss Baby (which iirc wasn’t well received at all) basically drawing all attention away from HTTYD and KFP until people stopped talking about them, but that’s just some dumb conspiracy theory since I heard Boss Baby being mentioned way more than HTTYD and KFP.

[@LOLWHATBRO]

​@@d1kgaws12 you must be interacting with some weird homies if you hear more about boss baby than kung fu panda.

[@bio-weaponn5576]

A villain basically personifies everything the hero should AVOID in life choices. Like a villain is someone who dealt with their personal stuff in all the worst ways.

[@Otval_bashky]

Or has a same motivation with hero but with radical methods

[@khn4048]

I wish the have a idea where the main character is the same as the villain not that they are same people but they have same motivations or same backstory but the main character tries to do whats right while the villain chooses the brutal way

[@dylanzlol7293]

@@khn4048 Then there wouldnt be a point to having to stop the villain? he wants to do the same thing that the protagonist, You would only need to nudge him into the right path and help the protagonist.

[@khn4048]

@@dylanzlol7293 good point

[@butterbutter891]

​@@dylanzlol7293well it's complicated, I mean, if you're a protagonist fighting for equal rights in order to save your people from oppression, would you support someone who's willing to murder thousands of innocent people cold-bloodedly to reach the same goal?

[@speedscampi5217]

I think an issue Disney has is these "phases" the idea of a twist villian or a villianless movie is not inherently bad. It is just when it happens so much the idea gets dull. It goes from "WOW I DIDN"T SEE THAT TWIST COMING" to "Whose gonna be the twist villian" and your looking for one through the whole movie which ruins the surprise of it. OR for villainess, it is more about storytelling, the stories get repetitive, the same story happening in a new setting won't entice many people. It needs to be a mixture. I also think Disney is playing it too safe as a whole. The movies use to have risky concepts and cruel villain's, now the villians are none existent, misunderstood, or just plain out boring. Some stories need villain's who are just evil, or don't have apparent redeeming qualities. Death is a great example, he is just out to get puss in boots because he doesn't appreciate his life. There's no redeeming motive, no twists, he is just doing his job, and it is amazing, fun, and serves the narrative purpose well. Whenever you hear the whistle you know that a something big is gonna go down. You feel the anxiety puss feels, and his presence is intimidating. Sometimes the story just needs a villian who is evil or just doing his job

[@Furienna]

Disney has indeed had a tendency to have phases ever since the '40s, because they will find a formula that works and use it for years until they try something new. That is why they only did jazzy musicals between 1961 and 1977 and almost only Broadway musicals between 1989 and 1999. Really though, it is hard to blame them since their two least formulaic eras (1977-1988 and 2000-2008) also happened to be two big nadirs in the studio's history. And actually, it is notable that the twist villain trend only lasted six years and the family/personal drama trend also seems to have lasted only six years.

[@Crystal.Butterfly.]

Somehow wish was worse…

[@cartoonishidealism582]

Damn monkey’s paw

[@freebird264]

Jack Horner in Puss in Boots 2 was such a breath of fresh air. Sure, we still had Death and Goldilocks and the Three Bears who were the morally grey force of nature and empathetic trio acting as antagonists, but then we had Jack Horner who was openly irredeemable and dead inside and the worst person imaginable.

[@chasehedges6775]

He’s the best Non Disney villain ever😊

[@randomguy2938]

I think Jack Horner is suppose to mock modern Disney villains, the conscience cricket tries to find something redeemable about him for most of his time. Also when talks about having a rough childhood but describes him having a mansion with loving parents and a business that gets to inherit

[@g.d.graham2446]

​@@randomguy2938 Definitely

[@goatlover6312]

@@randomguy2938 Also mocking a lot of “tragic villain,” motivation. Many of those villains are painted as sympathetic because they have a “greater purpose,” or “are missing that one thing they need to be happy,” and when the viewer thinks about the “sympathetic motive,” for more than a minute it gets clear that it either doesn’t line up with the villain’s previous actions or just plainly doesn’t make sense. When Jack talks about his wish the movie builds up towards a motive like I mentioned above but then just throws it away with the most selfish wish possible. Yes the more you think about it the more Jack is clearly just a giant middle finger towards modern Disney villains.

[@ShivaramKarthikeyan]

You could say that he's an irredeemable monster.

[@IanFanselow]

Another issue with the lack of prominent villains is the lack of villain songs. Having a song as dramatic as "Be Prepared" and as fun as "I Just Can't Wait to be King" and as romantic as "Can you feel the Love Tonight" in the same movie is a great amount of musical diversity. With Disney movies shying away from romance and villains we kind of just get the "fun song" a bunch of times. People love "Under the Sea" but I wouldn't want that to be played over every other song in The Little Mermaid

[@Kawaiikitten0211]

You’re SO right! “Under the Sea” is awesome! But so are “Kiss the Girl” and “Poor Unfortunate Souls”

[@roxanne_]

@@Kawaiikitten0211frl and without Part of Your World we wouldn’t have the “what the main character wants song”. It’s such a banger and it includes it’s light motif throughout the movie that reminds us of Ariel and her goal.

[@TheFinalGate_]

Its 2023, we cant have love stories anymore bcus men are literally evil

[@avelynn5976]

​@@TheFinalGate_ they may not be evil but they sure are whiny lmao

[@professionallyboring745]

​@@TheFinalGate_ I dislike romance being everywhere Everywhere everywhere. It's good but it, dropping is nice

[@djdedf1sh473]

The Hades one got me. I would like to note that every version of Hades I know is this Charismatic son of a gun. They may have a few other qualities to make them different but that charisma is always there. Besides Hades’s Hades. But that simply because of the roll he plays.

[@lexingtonbehi-semple307]

I feel that the new villains share a bit of gray area especially with the Grandmother from Encanto, it may help develop a sense of everything isn’t always right and wrong for kids

[@heyitsmira17]

Even the less known Disney movies had strong villains, Oliver & Company per example had a very realistic, cruel and threatening villain, as well as his dogs. And it still managed to be a very sweet and wholesome movie at its core. Idk why they're so afraid of making villains nowadays

[@hassathunter2464]

Cause what we call a villain... is their "hero".

[@orrorsaness5942]

@@hassathunter2464 The Pensuke Files’s titular character, Pensuke is proof of that. Pensuke in my series is the biological father of Kyubey, and he created a system known as the Litch system. It’s a cruel system with no real escape and it’s system laid a foundation of magic that will lead to… other… cruel systems. (Yes, I’m talking about The Witch System and the ones that succeeded it.) The Woke see Pensuke as a “baby” hero that deserves praise.

[@MorganKing95]

Yes, Sykes have always been one of my favorites despite being generally unpopular amongst Disney fans. Yes, he isn't too much in the story and doesn't have a very unique motivation or personality, but man is he intimidating and an unusually realistic villain for a Disney movie. Not to mention that his car feels like it has more personality than anyone in "Cars", simply because how much the cinematography highlights it and how integrated it is to Sykes' character

[@ltb1345]

@@hassathunter2464 So true.

[@conorgarrett5893]

@@orrorsaness5942 is that a real show?

[@blueredlover1060]

In Toy Story 2, Buzz and Zurg were set up in a Vader Luke dynamic. Pixar forgot that fact, apparently, and thus you get Lightyear.

[@TheRoomforImprovement]

I had a dream of an alternate climax of frozen 2. In this case, there was a fight between Elsa and a Northuldra woman commanding the spirits. I interpreted this figure as the daughter of the chief Elsa’s grandfather killed. I even poised the idea that this figure created the storm that killed Anna and Elsa’s parents in retribution.

[@ominousintrusivethoughts3947]

Disney's main issue in my opinion is their fear of just straight up scarring kids with some sorta horrifying element while the rest of the show is remembered fondly

[@marcforrester7738]

Which is stupid because scarring kids with deep psychic damage is exactly how you make lifelong fans.

[@michaelstrong5383]

Which is why they will never make a film like Hunchback of Notre Dame ever again.

[@ominousintrusivethoughts3947]

@@michaelstrong5383 which is odd cause that one got a sequel, but they did enough damage with the first one that it made it so when I traveled to Paris as a kid the whole thing felt like a reference to the movie

[@michaelstrong5383]

​@OminousIntrusiveThoughts Don't even get me started on The Hunchback of Notre Dame 2. Easily one of Disney's absolute worst direct-to-video sequels.

[@ominousintrusivethoughts3947]

@@michaelstrong5383 frl, I know I watched it, but it's nothing but a ghost in my memory, I couldn't tell you a thing that happens

[@devanhinskey9001]

I love how the 2020’s aren’t even half over and we’re ALREADY sick of Disney not having true villains and/or overusing the “generational trauma” schtick!

[@alionfish5]

It remind me of how Twist villain started : Frozen "nailed" it, so the following movies began to overuse it with rapidly failling rate of sucess. Encanto nailed the generational trauma, (unlike Frozen II who desperantly grabbed it while searching for a plot) and seeing Strange World, i think that will probably happens too. History doesn't repeat, but it sure does rhyme

[@gamerito100]

@@alionfish5 Frozen didn't nail it, tho, it was a very bad plot twist that came out of nowhere and contradicts some of the villains previous actions

[@devanhinskey9001]

But in all seriousness, I think the “generational trauma” angle did work in “Turning Red”.

[@scribbles1424]

It's because it's overused. It's like how most modern movies have the same message or tick the same checkboxes.

[@kenetickups6146]

@@devanhinskey9001 too bad the animation didn't

[@themaestro2572]

I think the last time disney/pixar had an actual villain was Luca (2019) with Ercole; and before anyone argues that he doesnt really count because he's just a petty bully rather than something big, his role as the local bully is very fitting in the film's coming of age story.

[@disneyfan5571]

Give me another villain like Dr. Faciler (Princess and the Frog) that made a deal with *literal demons*.

[@CinnamonGrrlErin1]

I think it's tied into the larger problem of Disney being too afraid to make anything different or unique anymore. Compare their recent version of Pinocchio to Del Toro's: they defanged and watered down all the original villains and it ended up being just a mess of a film, but Del Toro has several actual villains in there (and a lot of characters that aren't black or white but complex individuals). That's why people love Del Toro too, he gives us bad guys that are interesting and complicated but they are still *bad* without having some kind of dull backstory trope that lessens the impact. It is healthy for kids to read books or watch movies that have genuine bad people in them.

[@jstar3382]

Del Toro made that one as a passion project, it's no surprise it's better. And they had Mussolini!

[@SoldierDelta]

@@jstar3382 "I likea da puppets" Mussolini: A True Cinematic Icon

[@CinnamonGrrlErin1]

@@jstar3382 who was voiced by Tom Kenny of all people, which makes me laugh. That's how you do good political satire, you turn the bad guys into caricatures. I think Disney has the wrong idea about what kids should watch. Yes, there's a time and a place for more optimistic and hopeful movies, but kids aren't stupid and it does them a huge injustice to talk down to them the way so many movies do these days. Or they preach at them to try to indoctrinate them into whatever Disney wants them to think (and it's not just Disney but they are the worst when it comes to doing that sort of thing).

[@andresanguianozuniga6798]

I agree... Today it seems to make just what is in trending... Not doing somenthing unique.

[@michaelstrong5383]

Disney watered down Pleasure Island by having the kids drink root beer instead of alcoholic beer while Del Toro's take (even though it's not explicitly called Pleasure Island) was more of a military camp. It goes to show how Guillermo never talks down to his audience.

[@Alexandrosvls]

One type of villain that I believe gets overlooked, was treasure planet’s John silver. We knew as audience that he would be the antagonist and as he bonds with the protagonist you see the conflicts in his character and his redemption in the final act becomes more organic

[@ellencoleman4604]

Yes he's an interesting one. In a way John Silver is the centre of the story, he's the one moving the plot to reach his goal, he gets the most development, and Jim is the one who causes him to change. While Jim is the 'good guy' and the protagonist, a lot of what makes him engaging comes from his relationship with John Silver. Definitely a good example of story that needed both a hero and a villain.

[@matityaloran9157]

One of the reasons he worked while a redeemable villain was that it also had Scrop as an irredeemable villain.

[@ethanfoo9154]

Yes but also Treasure Island was an adaptation like many other adaptations which had villains in them. Turns out when disney adapts stories with villains in them they have villains in them. Who knew? That's why they've made less and less villains. They've not adapted as much stories rather than making originals which kinda suck cause the original stories of the adaptations made them so much better and disney didn't need to narratively make them better by a lot.

[@dianalord5825]

I remember watching Treasure Island story as a young girl...I was surprised at how duplicitous he was...but you couldn't take your eyes off of him. Pinocchio had some villians also...

[@niceguy160]

*Schaffrillas brother is crying in hell because my content is better* 🤣

[@spectscrawlz_]

This video is acrually kind of helpful! I like to write about characters i make but usually i just feel like the stories end up a bit empty once im mid-way through, and this video made me realize not many of my stories (if any) have any villains/big antagonists at all! Maybe i could try to add one here and there

[@fishyfow3767]

I think having a Gravemind type villain for Strange World would’ve been awesome.

[@sarahletkeman1905]

Lilo and Stitch is an interesting one where there is no true irredeemable "villian" but plenty of fun entertaining antagonists. Stitch is initially framed as a monster, and Gantu and the Grand Councilwoman, Jumbaa and Plekely all have their antagonist moments complete with jump scares, and even Cobra Bubbles is framed as the big scary bad guy trying to rip the family apart even though the audience knows he's just doing his job trying to protect a child. I think it works better because conflicts are well defined with clear motivations?

[@jbcatz5]

There’s Gantu, but he’s only relevant at the start of the film and to facilitate a climax.

[@nicholassims9837]

@@jbcatz5 yeah one could view the no real villain in the first film to be early installment weirdness as the later tv series we do get real villains

[@christopherauzenne5023]

Yeah rewatching lilo and stitch, I kinda find it weird that gantu is made into a villain in the later films/series, like all in all he’s just sorta doing his job. Frankly the grand council woman came off a bit more villainous then him

[@jordancampbell8597]

@@jbcatz5 And even then, he's not that bad. He's deeply offended by Stitch's existence--not entirely without reason--but his absolutism allows him to work as a foil to the far more reasonable Grand Councilwoman.

[@jbcatz5]

@@christopherauzenne5023 They’re both representing the law, but Gantu is the one who believes Experiment 626 will never not be a threat while the Councilwoman does see that Stitch has changed and is willing to use the loophole of the adoption shelter receipt to justify leaving the matter where it is.

[@littlemisstfc]

“A hero is a hero, but everyone *loves* a great villain.” - Phineas and Ferb

[@chasehedges6775]

Phineas and Ferb is a great show

[@Jasiuc330]

@@chasehedges6775 I mean it's not like I always watched it for Dundersztyc (Doofenshmitz)

[@ominousintrusivethoughts3947]

I can imagine death from puss & boots 2 saying that

[@liamphibia]

Hope *Jack Black's Bowser* is an irredeemable monster but a delightfully evil monster!😈

[@i.d.9754]

Pretty sure Ferb was the one who said it. Man, Ferb's so wise

[@Okay-sf1yp]

I was devastated when they said Zurg wasn't buzz's father. It's literally the "movie" for buzz lightyear. It's basically saying to the old movies: "Nah bro that was just a joke."

[@hunterolaughlin]

@@Ja1St1nksThat just was a Star Wars reference, it wasn’t meant to be confirmation that Zurg is Buzz’s father. Heck, in the Star Command cartoon, Zurg says the same then, but then reveals he was only using it as a way to distract Buzz so he could gain the upper hand in battle. So the Toy Zurg could be similarly lying and using it as a ploy to keep Buzz from fighting him so he could destroy him. After all, after Zurg says the “I am your father” parody line, he’s amping his “ion blaster” to 11 while Buzz is distracted taking in the “revelation”.

[@cartoonishidealism582]

Ok but it was a joke though Like It was LITERALLY a joke. That’s all it was. I guarantee you the writers of Toy Story 2 did not think deeply about the deep lore implication of a one-off Star Wars “I AM YOUR FATHER” reference

[@pedrojustice]

Correcting Disney is never doing anything good again

[@marc6371]

Sad ... But true

[@vegvisir9276]

i think Bill Cipher is one of the best villains, he doesn't have a traumatic backstory or anything, he literally just loves hurting people, causing misery and chaos and generally making people suffer as much as he possibly can and enjoys every second of it. Just a straight up insane villain

[@riverrain3568]

“Just a straight up insane villain” I think you mean *Pure Cosmic Nightmare*

[@angrycrab5501]

What show/movie is bull cipher from?

[@vegvisir9276]

@@angrycrab5501 "Gravity Falls" its a Disney cartoon series

[@yourcordialvermillionchapw2398]

There's a detail/theory suggesting Bill did have a bit of a sad backstory.

[@jarrettadams4102]

I like how as the show goes on the depths of his evil become worse and worse Oh he's some kind of trickster Oh he's some kind of demon Oh he's a Lovecraftian Chaos God that has a couch made of living human flesh and a throne of frozen suffering

[@lunarshadow5584]

You don't need a villain to have conflict but if you want a hero story, you are going to need an antagonist to stand in their way, to make them want to turn back if not be the reason the hero takes the journey. A story I'm working on will have a villain for every volume but not for every book. Some books will be more about internal conflicts or because of nameless monsters that are going wild. Some are relatable but there are villains who are doing the wrong thing for their own selfish reasons. ps. love that ending meme

[@Chaos706]

Oh no he had at least some form of expectation for the villain in Wish.

[@fakacoon8864]

We hated the "twist villain phase" because it was a phase, not because of the villains. Disney will never understand that in order to actually be taken seriously in any other capacity than standing on their laurels, they have to actually do something different

[@zwiemon]

The Wolf from puss in boots will most definitely go down as "oh ye, I remember how I was terrified by the wolf when I was younger" and i feel like every generation needs one of those characters

[@summerwoodsmusic]

Bruh I’m 25 and I recently had a nightmare about him looking at me with those red eyes. I can’t imagine how many actual children he’s already scarred for life.

[@christabelk16]

Exactly. Scary/threatening villains need to be a thing again. Bring back more Wheelers (Return to Oz) and Gmorks (on the topic of scary wolf villains) too. I know a couple of people who stated that they were frightened of even Mrs Tweedy (Chicken Run) as a kid.

[@KatieV456]

I work with elementary age kids and when I asked them if they'd seen Puss in Boots, one 7 year old said "Yeah, I hated it!" When I asked why with confusion, they replied "The wolf terrified me!!" So, yeah. Kids will definitely remember being terrified of that wolf.

[@lucdhecc9398]

I took my 5 year old sister to see it and after the movie I asked if she thought the wolf was scary, and she said “yeah.. he was scary” “not too scary though right?” “Actually he was REALLY scary” so I am happy to report that gen alpha is going through the rite of passage as well

[@jeffgoldblum7214]

X

[@trevgauntletneu_gaming]

Isn't Zurg Buzz Lightyear's father? So Zurg basically pulled a Fry from Futurama...