Sodium Ion Battery Vs Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery

[@cleversolarpower]

🎁 Free diagrams: cleversolarpower.com 📖 My best-selling book on Amazon: cleversolarpower.com/off-grid-solar-power-simplified

[@guygordon2780]

Wow, that discharge slope looks awful. I love how the narrator says "This makes the state of charge easy to measure with a volt meter." Well yeah, but that's totally insignificant compared to all the problems it causes. The long voltage plateau in the Li-Ion discharge is one of the greatest things about Lithium batteries.

[@cleversolarpower]

Hey, we got to focus on the positives 😄

[@mikemotorbike4283]

it doesn't die all the sudden....you have lots of warning as the lightbulb gets dimmer...

[@daddyDangle]

Lmao

[@ccibinel]

@@cleversolarpower differences is a good thing. If they each have advantages and continue to be developed each will find unique use cases that are optimal - right tool for the job. We need lots of stationary storage and heating the cells for charging in cold climates is a disadvantage with LFP (in addition to the obvious need for lithium).

[@paul_wiggin]

its both - good and bad. BMS can't do the job perfect which leads to some cells dying much earlier than expected. A graph like this allows BMS to work much more efficient and control depth of discharge of cells much more accurate. Considering this effect is cumulative - it is much more important than anything else. Keep in mind that Hight voltage packs contain dozens of cells in sequence, its not the same as in your phone. The downside is the lower minimum voltage, for sure, it will reduce maximum power output, but we rarely use those anyway. I bet 90% of charge-discharge happens between 90 and 20% charge.

[@corborst4872]

The wide working voltage range of sodium batteries are not favourable, i like that LiFePo4 has a dead flat discharge curve between 90 and 10% SOC, and prices have come down quite a bit since the old thundersky/calb batteries from 10 years ago, also in energy density has improved tremendously.

[@HwSystems]

Exactly, the voltage curve is so crappy I don't see how it can work except in specialized equipment. It will certainly not works with any inverter I have.

[@thatyoutubeguy7583]

Fr voltage range is worse than lead acid. A lead acid cell from full charge rest voltage to completely dead is like half a volt or less

[@jfbeam]

@@thatyoutubeguy7583 Pb is 2.3 to 1.65 (0.65) while LFP is 3.2 to 3.125 (0.08). Yes, you can pull a LFP battery much lower, but from my tests, there's about 15min (@25A) left in the pack at 3.125v, and about 60s from 3.1 to 2.5/2.8. The only real issue I see with Na is the extremely high charge voltage. For a cell that settles at 3.1v, 3.95v is insanely high (read: wasteful, it's just generates heat) It's going to take special chargers to handle these things. (much like NiMH, where something has to externally keep track of charge.)

[@egaskrad]

Nice to see a side by side comparison table. It makes everything so much clearer.

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

Yes, once the infrastructure is in place, Sodium ion can surely replace LIFEPO4 for solar and back up situations..I would suspect the cells will be half the cost..I'm extremely happy with my Catl LIFEPO4 cells, they tested at 292 Ah's when they were brand new, over 3 years ago, and test at 288 Ah's last month, still well over their 280Ah rated capacity..And I'm totally off grid, and they power everything in my house, everyday..They do have a 10,000 cycle life to 80%, a good bit better than your average LIFEPO4 cells.They were manufactured for the EV market, I believe..

[@retrozmachine1189]

Did you know that LiFePO4 can do 10000 cycles too? Without stating exactly how you determine end of life you can claim anything. Show me the specs for a sodium cell to obtain 10000 cycles and then we are talking. So far any manufacturer's data that I've come across that claims 10000 cycles seems to 'accidentally' leave this critical information out. Well known names in the industry rate their sodium cells at 1000 to 4000 charge/discharge cycles to 80% of original capacity and that's what people should be working with until they understand how cycle life data is produced.

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

@@retrozmachine1189 That is what my comment says, that my Catl LIFEPO4 cells are rated for 10,000 cycles to 80%...When they were brand new they tested at 292 Ah's, over 3 years ago, last month they tested at 288 Ah's, still above their 280 Ah rating after 3 years of living off grid and pounding them everyday..It would take some serious proof to make me ever switch technologies..

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

LFP cells can easily last for 10-15K cycles. BTW: also do Li-Ion cells. Which advantage do Na+ cells have for solar power storage systems? Its not the cost. Na+ will cost the same as LFP. Currently they are twice to three times more expensive. Its only the better temperature handling.

[@cleversolarpower]

A good incentive is that it doesn't use lithium, which makes it a more 'sustainable' and long term storage solution.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@cleversolarpower I disagree. We have an abundance in lithium. The US and Mexico alone have enough Lithium to power 50 billion vehicle batteries. The Germans have enough to power the whole EU for the next 200 years. Without recycling.

[@shridharparmesh3159]

This video is very informative for my thesis. I would like to know which company's sodium battery you used for the comparison? I mean, the data sheet is from which sodium battery manufacturer?

[@cleversolarpower]

You can find them on Alibaba.

[@GSchu-tz6tj]

We received the same specification a few days ago. When I was looking on the SOC OCV chart for the first time, I was terrified since you either need to have a wide inverter input or you can't use the whole capacity. What I'm missing even more is data about Round Trip Efficiency (often 3 x times - full charge - discharge cycle) !! My expertise with LFP/C is that they can reach RTE of 95-96 % (Benergy, EVE, 50 Ah). The voltage gap between charge and discharge with sodium ion doesn't seem promising in this regard. Do you have data?? Also, what is about calendaric aging ? Data is out there for LFP/C. Last but not least - concerning costs, we see market prices in January 2024 for 280 Ah cells from Hithium and REPT for 56/54 €/pcs without transport - resulting in approx 60 USD/kWh. I agree that Na-ion will keep the cost pressure on LFP high. By the way - what does the voltage/SOC graph look like @ low temperatures?

[@cleversolarpower]

Good point. I don't have data about the round trip efficiency. Neither do I have information about the voltage graph at low temps. I will ask suppliers about these. I was lucky to receive an English datasheet, all the others were in Chinese.

[@ursodermatt8809]

@@cleversolarpower ah yes, there is no data about the "round trip efficiency" because it probably is most likely very bad. also there is no information how long they keep the charge.

[@cleversolarpower]

@@ursodermatt8809 Sounds like content or my upcoming video about sodium-ion.

[@benwilliam1010]

and what is also intereseting is the continous C rating. I saw a testgraph from TÜV which shows that the output power is dependent on SOC, like if you have a 200Ah Cell it can output 200A but when the SOC is at 50% it outputs only 50% like 100A, could you ask this also, please ?

[@ursodermatt8809]

@@cleversolarpower thanks, i appreciate it

[@moziani9093]

Nice video. Sodium-ion are clearly for the future. Most people are looking for plug and play and the best info to make good decisions when designing their system. Maybe you can give your take on prismatics and pouce cell here or in a video. For me its hell of job to make sense of the product line of for example Litime. smart, plus, mini. and more. Another idea for a video is server rack vs old school lifep04. Thanks for your efforts to make things a bit more clear for us.

[@cleversolarpower]

Thanks for your comment. Those are good video ideas. Concerning the pouch cells, I recommend using prismatic. But if space is limited, then use the litime mini, which has pouch cells.

[@wlhgmk]

Could you do a similar comparison between Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and ZnBr batteries (both the Redflow and Gelion). No one suggests that these will be useful for mobile applications but look at them for static applications. For home use, the most important factors for me are 1)longevity, 2) price and 3) hands off operation.

[@mannyfragoza9652]

The most prominent advantage would be that Sodium has an advantage in Cold weather, and could be appealing to those who live in cold climates. Other than that it I prefer LiFePO4 Batteries.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

And Na+ deliver more power. But i will keep my LFP. They are easier to work with.

[@cleversolarpower]

Yes, another point is that it doesn't use lithium. So it's more sustainable long term. But if you already have lithium batteries or plan to do so in the next year, then LiFePO4 is still the best choice.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@cleversolarpower "So it's more sustainable long term." 1. What is the difference of sustainability in the short and long term. 2: Na+ cells use very expensive electrolytes which counter your argument - today. 3: Na+ cells - at least the current ones - use hard carbon for whcih you need a great amount of energy to produce, they are not naturallay available. Some cell developments try to use brown coal but those are not available - today.

[@teknosql4740]

Hard carbon just activated carbonized coconut shell but have N doped addition, its not energy intensive to produce ​@@wolfgangpreier9160

[@blower1]

Other than potential future price due to the abundance of sodium....the cold weather performance seems to be it's only advantage.

[@Deveak]

The voltage range seems like it would play mostly nice with most common inverters in a 4S config. Bottom shut off is typically 10 volts so roughly 10% left in the battery. 15 volts is the usual max for most cheap inverters. Better ones 15.5 and true solar units are 17. So you are likely going to only be able to charge it to 90%. If it functions like most lithium batteries do, this will increase its cycle life so the voltage range is actually ideal. Love how its discharge curve makes it easy to read.

[@timl2k11]

How much cheaper do you think sodium ion could get than lithium? Is the lithium a major expense of a battery and is sodium radically cheaper? Great video. Thx.

[@cleversolarpower]

We are not there yet. But if production of sodium increases it can be.

[@BlipsNchitz-zq7yo]

please do these tests !!!! perfect video

[@hotbird3]

hmmm, the voltage chart is actually quite useful in some scenarios, for example , I was trying to monitor solar voltage switching for a project but lifepo4 batteries were a real pain by using voltage monitoring as it does not reflect true soc. This got me really excited now , Thanx for the useful info 👊👍

[@cleversolarpower]

True, but for lithium you can use a shunt to solve the problem. Here, if you have a 24V battery, you need to size wires for a 12V system because the voltage gets low.

[@hotbird3]

@@cleversolarpower 🤔 okk i think i get it , thanx 👊

[@NeblogaiLT]

Nice to see a sodium battery with a claimed 4000-cycle life (at 80%+). Thus far, I only saw announcements of one with 2000 cycles, (IIRC, to be used in bikes in Asia). It will be really interesting to follow the tests and experiences from enthusiasts who run them hard. And hopefully the tech advances fast, as LFP is now cheaper, denser, and can be at least (Edit:) 215Wh/kg (CATL M3P).

[@cleversolarpower]

The CATL M3P battery is a bit of a mystery battery it seems. They are not disclosing the materials. I assume you meant Wh/kg instead of MWh/kg 😀

[@awesomusmaximus3766]

They may have a higher C rating henceforth the lower cycle life

[@petersamios5409]

Thanks for the information. I'm looking forward to the economies of scale getting the prices down.

[@roginutah]

That 113F max charging temp could be trouble. Ambient temps often go 100F. And if you put some stress on the battery it may easily go over 113. Good for cooler climates, though. Any mods needed for your inverter to work at the wider range of voltage?

[@johnshaw359]

The voltage range possibly means series wiring in practice, and possibly boost conversion otherwise quite a bit of current needed below 3v for power apps. Could be useful for EVs sold in colder climates and niche applications.

[@josepeixoto3384]

Special inverters needed now, due to the humungus variation in voltage, from near 1 Volt to almost 4 Volts; every new solution brings new prolems,it's very true here too, with Sodium batteries, NaBs .

[@PakistanidramasN3D]

Nice video. to the point and concise

[@kingcrimson234]

Hmm, there are a lot of disadvantages here. That SoC curve is crazy. I'll be sticking with LiFePo4 for my home battery backup. I can see this being useful if you live in very cold areas, but it'll take some extra considerations when designing a system with Sodium Ion, like larger gauge wires than you'd expect. Also weight. 100 Ah LifePo4 packs are already around 100 pounds when in a rack mount case, which is heavy enough. Sodium Ion will be even heavier.

[@cleversolarpower]

Good comment. I agree.

[@rilosvideos877]

No question for now - the LFP will always win! The discharge curve is a desaster the only advantages are the materials used for Na+ (no expensive and problematic materials) and the better temperature stability esp. in cold state. Prices will also go done as production raises. They will (and need to) be cheaper than LFP soon i guess. But i would still stick to LFP if weight and volume matter.

[@sdewaard]

Excellent concise comparison, thank you, this came up in my feed and now I have subscribed to your channel. One big drawback is that because of the huge voltage range of the sodium ion cell, none of our existing inverters will work with these unless you are willing to only use a fraction of the capacity of the cells.

[@cleversolarpower]

Thank you for subscribing! Yes, the voltage range is very wide.

[@Joekudi]

Hi is the issue of top balancing batteries also necessary for Sodium ion batteries? I suffer inefficient usage of my 16s 280ah Lifepo4 battery setup due to top blancing issues?

[@cleversolarpower]

I assume so. I cannot tell because they have not arrived yet. If you have trouble top balancing, charge them up all they way to 100%. The balancing function will then kick in. The balancing happens only at high voltage, it is possible that your battery doesn't see the high voltage enough times.

[@andreasw5925]

Higher Voltage is also nice for a 16s energy storage system. less current (some did already built 18s before). Also with the better temperature range for charging, it can easily be placed in the garage, where lifepo had to be placed on heating pads to be charged on sunny but ice cold winter days.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

My garage does not get cold. I am perfectly happy with LFP.

[@cleversolarpower]

Indeed, I see sodium as a good fit for off-grid cabins/vans or in your situation where garages can get cold.

[@teardowndan5364]

If you look at Na-ion's voltage-SoC curves, Na-ion's is almost linear with SoC from 2.6V to 3.6V vs mostly flat about 3.2V from 20% through 80% for LFP. Na-ion will require higher current through the bottom 60% of SoC when using the same cell count and loads able to cope with ~800mV more peak-to-peak SoC swing per cell.

[@stefanivarsson3270]

Hallo What is the baying price for typ 100amp. ? Who is selling

[@33a333]

I wonder if explosion and fire actually occur when overcharging. Please make a video.

[@kanlu5199]

BYD blade battery test

[@firas4912]

Thank you very match use-full information

[@cleversolarpower]

Happy to help

[@flotsamike]

The sodium ions charge range of between 1.4 volts and 3.65 volts would almost require two different inverters over its range . If you were to try to use the current from it directly your power would drop continuously until it was less than half what you started with.

[@PhG1961]

Indeed helpfull, informative and entertaining. Thank you so much for this comparison.

[@cleversolarpower]

Glad it was helpful!

[@PhG1961]

@@cleversolarpower Indeed, this will help me on my way to build my first sodium battery.

[@adr2t]

I have a feeling manganese could be added to Na batteries in the future along with just more study into how Na batteries are produce at the factory will slowly improve them past that of LFP or LMFP in the future. Along with Na being super cheap - its a clear cut road they will just be simply better for Grid and Home power storage. Along with adding Si and S later for even a more power dense difference. Solid state also offers some added safety features too along with lower the weight. All to say, they could be coming to EVs once someone can produce and add all the other improvements as we will be to something well over 400 Wh/kg at half the cost in the next 10 years or so.

[@ejonesss]

since it is not mentioned what form that the sodium is in (table salt (NACL) or some other salt or metal sodium foil). either way the manufacturing process should be the same as lithium ion as far as the application of the battery material layers and the rolling/folding/stacking and the insertion into the can and sealing up so the only differences maybe is no need to do the manufacturing in a vacuum fire suppression gas environment such as co2, nitrogen, helium or even sf6 gas.

[@teknosql4740]

Sodium in form of prussian material and electrolyte consist of Na ELement not nacl, or sodium metal.

[@robertkeyes258]

What is the cold-temperature self-discharge rate?

[@cleversolarpower]

That wasn't specified on the datasheet, sorry.

[@garykeller896]

? What do you know of or think of graphene batties

[@cleversolarpower]

I've never heard of them, and there is probably a reason why.

[@yjbmwsc]

Looking forward to seeing it coming out in the market… They may be suitable for storing electricity for the household but may be too heavy to be used in an EV… Weight is everything in EV efficiency, but who knows if they will come up with a lighter and more efficient motor in the future to mitigate the weight penalty of the batteries…

[@cleversolarpower]

I agree. I didn't talk about the wh/liter which is also important for the ev industry. It will be more suited for stationary batteries, but in a few years.

[@mikemotorbike4283]

Used in an EV, you never get caught with a dead battery. You floor the accelerometer as you go slower and slowwweer and slowwwwwwer...until you reach a charging station.

[@ccibinel]

CATL is already at 200 wh/kg which is definitely viable and cold charging a is nice plus. Sodium currently is being invested in because it will serve a low end of the market as prices drop over time (and lithium prices go up). With the volume and weight of CATL sodium ion batteries and an optimized design the Aptera with 133 liters of 21120 cells which is expected to go an absolutely silly 1000 miles EPA will be 440 miles with LFP or 360 miles with sodium (both mostly limited by volume not weight); a good enough design or building in more battery storage volume makes either just fine for EVs.

[@francisguchie1973]

Do you have a comparison between lead acid sealed gel batteries compared to lithium ion

[@cleversolarpower]

I do have a comparison between lead acid and lifepo4 batteries on my channel.

[@Lordlindef]

Like go to heaven !!!!!

[@disruptIT]

The Steep voltage curve means, it would be difficult to get an inverter to work with those batteries. 1.5 x16s= 24volts at dead, and 63.2v at full, I've not seen an inverter handle that range. Even if you cut off at 2v / cell that'd still be 32v at the low, and 3.5v for the top would be 56v. Which makes sourcing an inverter almost impossible. The batteries look good besides that.

[@josepeixoto3384]

New inverters needed, MPPT inverters,no big deal, but the efficiency will be poorer.

[@retrozmachine1189]

Measuring energy density by weight is a silly thing to do even though it is oft cited. Measure it per volume. This is the part that matters. How much space does it take to store X kWh of energy, ie watt hours per litre.

[@cleversolarpower]

Good point. The datasheets are often made for the EV industry where weight is more of a concern than volume. For off-grid i think both are not very relevant. A 220Ah Na+ battery has similar weight and dimensions as a 280Ah LiFePO4 battery cell. Not that big of a difference for a technology that is developing.

[@teknosql4740]

Measure energy per weight is important for EV especially for aircraft,

[@havabighed]

Even for non-stationary applications... as production increases, price will continue to drop and it will undercut the cost of an electric vehicle based on lithium.... the battery is one of the most expensive parts of an electric vehicle. If the battery drops to 1/2 the price of a lithium battery, it will make the electric vehicles based on it a more attractive option.

[@Sekir80]

I'm sorry, what rare earth materials are you talking about at the and of the video? Similarly, in the comparison section, LiFePO4 materails "scarce"? Umm... What?

[@cleversolarpower]

Lithium is a rare element.

[@Sekir80]

@@cleversolarpower No, it is not. Please, look up the rare earth elements list.

[@michaelcoghlan9124]

Thank you very interesting, Michael

[@1202Sid]

Have you ever looked into Lead Crystal / Silicon Dioxide Batteries (SiO2) batteries ?

[@rodkirt9273]

I have been watching the “ salt water “ batteries for several years and have not been able to acquire any information concerning their output , life or any responses from buyers as to how well the batteries hold up .? I thank you for providing some resent information on them .

[@TheWickerShireProject]

I have very limited info on salt water batteries. They charge very slow and discharge very slow. Best use where power is applied to them gently. Example: Off grid cabin with LED lights, phone charging, computer and small amp draw appliances. You would avoid installing and using equipment such as air compressors or high amp motors ect. A small single AC unit with low amp draw would be ok but, a Multi AC units cooling many rooms with tons of amp draw would be very bad. Note: They have nearly a complete recycle capability and are cheap to make as well as ( stack ) in Parallel or Series. These batteries have a lower energy density compared to their counterparts.This would result in a Bigger battery space in size to get the same amount of amp hours. They conduct energy poorly compared to other batteries resulting in a softer draw of power from them. The batteries are 100% non toxic. Non- flammable. Life cycles are much larger then other batteries in their class. ( Guessing its due to the gentle charge and discharge rates ). Probably know all this. Just thought I'd weigh in here. If they were Mass produced the result would be some of the CHEAPEST batteries on the market.

[@Doppelhorn]

Oh dear, the „salt water battery “ term is at best good marketing. It is borderline false advertising - I would prefer to call it euphemistic propaganda 😉. Don‘t be mislead to assume that they use a „safe“ saline solution as the electrolyte. In reality, it should better be called a „molten sodium-nickel-chloride battery“: while the reactants do include sodium chloride and nickel chloride, the elephant in the room is the liquid metallic sodium used as the negative electrode. The solid electrolyte separator in the form of a membrane of beta-alumina needs to be heated to 270 degrees Celsius to become sufficiently conductive, which may be one of the reasons it has somewhat gone out of fashion for vehicle applications. For stationary use, these batteries that were formerly known as „Zebra“ are still being manufactured, but I consider them far to be expensive for small scale household energy storage. Since the only remaining manufacturers is located in Switzerland, there are a few subsidized installations here and there, but my guess it that this battery type may soon be a bit of a dead horse.

[@GSchu-tz6tj]

Thanks for your work!

[@justdoityourself7134]

That low voltage side is really low. I wonder about a 17s configuration to keep "48v" inverters from performing badly.

[@joemason9187]

Great content and vid

[@guygordon2780]

That maximum charging temperature of 113F for Na-Ion is going to be a big problem in hot weather. That's not the outdoor air temperature. That's the max temperature allowed inside the batteries. Batteries generate a lot of internal heat when being used and when being charged. When you're driving a car in 99F weather the batteries get much hotter than that. So if you pull up to a DC Fast Charger you might have to wait for it to cool down. Also the car will restrict its charge rate to protect the battery. Fast Charging generates a LOT of heat. I certainly wouldn't use these Na-Ion batteries in a car. I know some companies are planning to use Na-Ion in cars, but they'll have to be better than these.

[@mondotv4216]

I think I'd rather wait until we see a data sheet from CATL or LG. The 4000 cycle life sounds... too good to be true. Also the max temp of 45C is unworkable for somewhere like Australia. Given Sydney (by no means the hottest place here) is currently experiencing daily temps in the mid 30's, just add a little heat from the battery and you're going to need a cooling system.

[@ccibinel]

But -10c is a great advantage for canada, norway etc (and safer/cheaper than nickel). Different climates necessitate different solutions.

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

I have a side building without plumbing. In other words: Only really usable for storage. So if costs comes down they might become relevant. Also there is the basement.

[@krg038]

LFP are well documented as a fire risk. Other youtubers have nail punctured Na+ and they explode with no fire. As of today Na+ are less costly per cell. Overall Ah/kg Na+ is more.

[@ahmedbakhit912]

Interesting, especially when manufacturing costs are low

[@cleversolarpower]

Indeed, it will take time for the cost to come down. Overall, I'm excited about this development.

[@habana7638]

Don't forget that many people already have LifePo4 in their system and that they will only be replaced in 10 to 20 years, so this is not that interesting .@@cleversolarpower

[@Lordlindef]

Why buy leftover batteries when you can contact manufacturer and get real batteries that HAVE BEAN TRUE TEST OF EV-INDUSTRY!!!!!!! COS THAT'S WHAT REAL BATTERYES ARE. THIS GRADE A AND B IS FAKE AND ONLY LEFTOVERS

[@ccibinel]

I'm hoping that an eventual v2 of Aptera uses sodium or LFP cells. The density and charge/discharge keeps improving for sodium since the tech isnt as far into development as LFP. For low cost vehicles or those with smaller batteries like Aptera the environmental, temperature and cost (eventually) advantages make sense vs LFP or NCM. The current version of Aptera going into production soon will use NCM but long term I think the EV industry will see nickel based chemistries similar to engines that need premium gas; LFP or sodium will be good enough for the masses.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

The LIGHTER the vehicle the SMALLER (volume) and more ENERGY DENSE (volumetric AND gravimetric) the pack needs to be. . So if anything the Nickel based (or derivative) cells will be used in SMALL vehicles where the pack is a LARGER percentage of total vehicle weight.

[@PS-ef4yg]

Excellent info with no useless filler. Thanks for sharing...

[@mikebellamy]

Great but you don't explain all the terms - jargon nor what the chart is actually showing.. And why is LiPO4 not showing any fire / explosion when damaged/shorted etc when we hear about that problem so much elsewhere?

[@cleversolarpower]

The videos you see are lithium poly batteries. Lifepo4 has been tested on videos here on KZbin with no fire/explosion. Only venting and swelling.

[@bryanwhitton1784]

@@cleversolarpower I have tried to explain this so many times.

[@republicridge5894]

What are charging parameters in 24v?

[@cleversolarpower]

Here you see cell voltages. X4 for 12V batteries, x8 for 24v batteries.

[@sureshgeorge2163]

What about bms specs?

[@cleversolarpower]

There is currently no specific BMS for Na+ batteries, but you can adjust lifepo4 BMS'es to fit the charging profile.

[@Hobby_Electric]

The Voltage Range from the SOC Batterys are bad, cheap measuring equipment is capabile of reading in mV but Inverter with wide voltage Range are less efficient. Also with more cells the output Power decreas signifficant. Example: LifePo4 under load Full 3.3V Empty 2.9V Diff = 0,4V 10Cells = 4V so from 33V@100A=3300W to 29V@100A=2900W means 12% Power loss Example: SOC under load Full 3.45V Empty 2.25V Diff = 1,2V 10Cells = 12V so from 34,5V@100A=3450W to 22,5V@100A=2250W means 34% Power loss

[@petersimms4982]

Smashing vid 😊

[@WiSeNhEiMeR-1369]

Thanks COOP ...

[@Przedzik]

Well clearly we have issues with current. For example, when battery will have 20%charge left voltage is so low that current will double always on low SOC, so output power will be limited almost by half. This have to be considered when building battery banks.

[@cleversolarpower]

Exactly. You will have to size wires for a 24v system if you have a 48v system.

[@petmen71]

wat bms wil work with this new cell??

[@cleversolarpower]

There are no BMS'es yet for this chemistry. However, you can adjust the voltages of the BMS in the app.

[@petmen71]

ok thanks @@cleversolarpower

[@melvinlagdan9586]

maybe a LiFepo4 Smart BMS with 4S cells only adjust a little bit on max voltage to much-up and LVD to lowest but u cant drain them to 80%DOD due to LVD 10.5v but i read some Daly Smart BMS can go further LVD 2.2v per cell so 8.8v for 4s it is match for this kind of battery

[@andrewenglish3810]

Do you have a ZZ9000 (sp?) card, you should pair the two in your A2000 next. 😁

[@cleversolarpower]

I don't know what you are talking about 🤔

[@panospapadimitriou3498]

sodium ones seems they can be balanced even more and long term with those curves...!!! and for sure will be easier to see their state of charge more precise!!! .. which is critical in smaller aplications because cost makes everyone scale from smaller to bigger system.. .. slightly game changer

[@cleversolarpower]

Good comment.

[@barnowl6807]

That upper charge temperature limit will not be acceptable for many parts of the world. If that is not improved this chemistry is going nowhere, except for niche applications that may require only cold temperature performance.

[@beebop9808]

May be a good alternative for northern climates but not that much. 113 degrees max charge can easily become an issue at southern latitudes. More space, less capacity is going in the wrong direction. Not terrible but IMHO I think I'll leave this bleeding edge to someone else to play with. Don't think it's going to get off the ground very high before something bigger, badder and faster comes along.

[@Ra-zor]

Need a few more years real world testing and manufacturing refinement/pricing reduction, about another 5 years, then may make the swap (see if people really do get 4000 cycles out of them real world!). Looks promising, but for now will stick with tried and very tested LifePo4... Other problem is charge temperature, as batteries get hot after a discharge, and an upper charge temp of 45c is a limit for some applications, especially where cells are packed together in the real world, 45c is not very hot at all (my LifePo4 can get that hot and more in summer which would mean if they were Na+ you couldn't charge them in the day on a solar array!).

[@cleversolarpower]

What is you ambient temperature in summer? 45°C is quite a lot for solar charging/discharging. Have you sized your battery correctly (C-rate)?

[@jonasstahl9826]

​@@cleversolarpowerMany places on earth have 35c on a hot day like Germany where I life, in a building with out aircondition like a garage even more, than add some heat from the charging and you are above spec.

[@ianollmann9393]

Rare earth is a specific tag used to denote a set of heavy elements also known as lanthanides. They do not include cobolt, manganese or other rare elements used in battery manufacture. They do include neodynium which is used for magnets such as what might be in an electric motor. You should refer to rare elements used in battery manufacture as rare elements. Rare earth elements means something else.

[@NomenNescio-jn4yt]

Sodium is extracted from salt (NaCl) with chlorine gas as a by-product. What are you going to do with all the chlorine gas you get???

[@teknosql4740]

Sodium ion battery not using sodium metal, and no chlorine but using cathode and electeolyte that consist of mostly Na element.

[@JoeyBlogs007]

With supercharging highly saturated and widely dispersed, 160Wh/Kg is all you will need. The challenge rests now in rollout of the super charging networks.

[@cleversolarpower]

And the rollout of an electricity grid that is capable of powering EV's 😅

[@johnt5222]

It doesn't need to be one or the other. A hybrid battery has been made and could be used in many applications (3 sodium cells and one lithium cell).

[@cleversolarpower]

That's quite strange. How would you handle the voltage difference between the cells? Let alone find a BMS for that?

[@Mike-01234]

Think these are a game changer reduced fire risk, and cost savings will enable lower income home owners to afford a solar battery system.

[@tossancuyota7848]

this sodium batteries are stonk a really good replacement for lithium the graph basically shows how solid its performance would be irl since it be as basic as plug and play and safe too as no or less combustion if there's any i would expect the life of this kind of batteries would exceed 10/15 years minimum since it needs less maintenance and durable AF

[@cleversolarpower]

I agree, very similar to lifepo4. However, the voltage can become a problem. Most inverters cutoff at 10V, 2.5V per cell, so that would mean there is still 35% capacity left in the cell.

[@offgridd]

Still happy with my EVE flatliners being safe too. These will last at least 10-15 yrs. By then, Solid State Batteries will be the standard I guess.

[@cleversolarpower]

Yes indeed, sodium-ion is not on point yet. Keep using your lifepo4 cells :)

[@dc1544]

So 14 of these cells would match my charging voltage of existing Lifepo4 cells in each pack. 12.166kw compared to 14.336kw. Even if I could not add these to my existing setup unless I had another inverter that could use that range for NA batteries. That is a huge voltage range.

[@cleversolarpower]

Cycling could be done from 2.3V-3.65V per cell or 9.2V-14.6V for a 12V battery. That's from 15% to 95%. This fits the input voltage of the victron inverter. Renogy low cutoff is 10V, so that would be 2.5V per cell at 35% capacity left.

[@dc1544]

@@cleversolarpower i'm 48 volt. I am not saying I would not mind adding another inverter. When these get at a better price I would get 2 packs and add another 5kw of solar also.

[@86steelrain]

Thought one of the big advantages to sodium batteries was also their charge rates which were supposed to be higher than lithium by a significant amount

[@cleversolarpower]

No it's about the same from the data i got.

[@kamohomestead82]

Hi, I would like to see you do nail penetration test on Sodium Ion battery.

[@CollinBaillie]

My issue is finding an inverter with sufficient input range. A 48v (100% SoC) pack could go as low as 24v at 10% SoC. Who makes an inverter that can work with that range? 24v-48v input. I haven't found one yet.

[@cleversolarpower]

Good point. These are the input voltages of victron inverters: 9.3-17V 18.6-34V 37.2-68V 9.3V=2.32V/cell which is 15% capacity left. I would say this is do-able.

[@jeremydumoit4487]

Where can you buy 280Ah LFP cells for $70?

[@cleversolarpower]

Alibaba

[@jeremydumoit4487]

@@cleversolarpower Shipping is expensive

[@envt]

Do the tests please

[@gilbertfranklin1537]

1. Lithium-ion batteries can enter an uncontrollable, self-heating state. This can result in the release of gas, cause fire and possible explosion. 2. The major issue with lithium-ion batteries overheating is a phenomenon known as thermal runaway. In this process, the excessive heat promotes the chemical reaction that makes the battery work, thus creating even more heat and ever more chemical reactions in a disastrous spiral. 3. Lithium-ion batteries can explode or catch fire due to a phenomenon called thermal runaway. Thermal runaway is a chain reaction that occurs when the battery experiences a rapid increase in temperature, leading to the release of energy and potentially causing a catastrophic failure. Sodium-ion batteries have none of these problems... Google, results in .45 seconds.

[@cleversolarpower]

Lithium iron phosphate is different from lithium ion.

[@salmanbluechip]

Means it's good for cold areas only

[@cleversolarpower]

Not only that. It's price will become cheaper in the following years, making it more interesting for off-grid power.

[@JimDory]

A bit disappointed in the statement that the safety aspects between LiFePo and Sodium batts are the "same", as to me this indicates the sodiums will have the same shipping restrictions. I hope not. I live off the road system only approachable by jet or barge and shipping charges for the lithium batteries cost as much or more than the cells, using either ship method. Most places in the U.S. will not even ship here. I hope the shipping standard gets an early review..

[@cleversolarpower]

I've read online that sodium ion can be shipped at 0V or 0% soc. However, the data-sheet didn't mention it. We will have to see of shipping companies pick this up and change their precautions about shipping these batteries.

[@nickl5658]

LiFePO batteries are a lot safer than regular Li batteries. I imagine a NaFePO battery would be even safer.

[@ascii892]

The 0.5C charge rate means its not very viable for EVs since it would take 2 hours to charge. That means there is less incentive for high volume manufacturing so the prices probably won't come down that fast. I think the voltage range is too high. A 14s NA+ battery would have a similar full charge as a 16s LFP battery around 55.3 volts, but the discharge voltage would be only 21 V in contrast to 40 V for LFP. I don't think there are many loads that can handle that range, so you would have to leave a lot of the capacity unused.

[@cleversolarpower]

Indeed, it's less interesting for the EV industry. the voltages are both high and low. But leaving some capacity unused will increase it's lifespan. And if the price is going to be half, it's well worth it in my opinion.

[@NeblogaiLT]

Looking at the current market, fast charging is expensive anyway (and I believe it is not even properly taxed here in Europe). EVs are most competitive if you charge with your own electricity, or at a cheap tariff at night- both of which are variants of slow charging. And I really hope it becomes the norm to have cheap (free?) slow charging from solar at work, while using/selling that same electricity from the EV at peak tarrifs in the morning and evening while at home. Sodium in EV would work just fine for this.

[@oliviercoulon5196]

There's multiple different sodium ion chemistries (layered metal oxides, prussian blue analogues and polyanion) and they have different characteristics (although all seem to do well in the cold). The HiNa cells in the JAC Yiwei microcar is a layered metal oxide using Copper. The vehicle is now in series production and Yiwei claims a 10-80% charge time of only 20mins. I.e. > 2C. HiNa claims a 4,500 cycle life time. I'd be very surprised if sodium ion doesn't scale. The Chinese don't need to throw much in the way of subsidies/purchasing mandates to support growth, particularly given sodium ion batteries are built using very similar machinery as lithium ion. As the largest importer of lithium and oil and a major importer of LNG and thermal coal its in their interests to support this tech as it will help keep the price of energy and lithium down.

[@thatyoutubeguy7583]

Couldn’t you just use some type of switching regulator to produce a constant voltage

[@BillMitchell-lm8dg]

You mention that sodium ion batteries need less *rare earth* materials. What *rare earth* materials are you thinking of?

[@cleversolarpower]

Scarce materials is a better word.

[@scottymsu6063]

I can see sodium Ion battery dropping in price as they ramp up production.. this will be the new cost champ

[@alexalex13131]

I understand that sodium batteries weigh two to three times more than lithium batteries. If true that would rule them out for EVs, but is it true?

[@cleversolarpower]

They don't weight two to three times more. They just have larger volume, that's the problem for EV's.

[@lesnypatrol7292]

Sodium batteries are perfect form home energy storage but at current price are completely nonsense

[@francisdebriey3609]

You cannot compare products from 2 different development ages. We will need at least 10 more years before Sodium batteries are ready for mass production. At this moment, the characteristics of the batteries will have improved significantly

[@cleversolarpower]

Of course we can compare two chemistries with different development ages. We compare lithium to lead acid all the time.

[@francisdebriey3609]

@@cleversolarpower well, I disagree, if you want to compare how sodium batteries effectively compete with lithium, both techs must have reached their full potential. In the case of comparing lithium batteries with lead acid batteries, the comparison is fair because both will not increase dramatically in performance anymore. This is not the case with current Sodium ion batteries which are in very early stage of R&D

[@rvingonthego]

What is the total price with shipping

[@cleversolarpower]

Check the image at end of video. $414 including shipping to the US.

[@mshepard2264]

The charging in hot weather is a bit of an issue.

[@cleversolarpower]

Yeah, could require an AC controlled environment some times of the year.

[@gingernutpreacher]

Yes please do the tests your self

[@johnslugger]

*You can't BUY a Sodium Ion Battery so WHAT IS THE POINT???*

[@cleversolarpower]

You can buy sodium cells, and since this is a diy channel I provide information about diy batteries as well 🙂.

[@johnslugger]

@@cleversolarpower *I can't buy Na-Ion on Amazon or Ebay. If I do a google search for them I end up at Ali-Express every time. Maybe you can provide a link to a cheap Sodium battery store that is local and discounted???*

[@petrjiricek8547]

The letters in graphs is too small.

[@mumraizakhtar3994]

Nice

[@teddypreston5525]

Not even at half the price are they comparable to the LiFePO4. They still need to prove the robustness; and at the same cycle of the LiFePO4 the certainly lack they promise.

[@cleversolarpower]

If they are half the price it would be worth it for sure. For solar system, the charging c-rate (0.5C) is never going to be that high. The LiFePO4 280Ah battery has 6,000 cycles, but the smaller one 230Ah has 4,000, just like the sodium battery. So the cycle life is not a real problem in my opinion.

[@DanBurgaud]

The 1.5V to 3.95V voltage range is a let down.

[@jedics1]

The main problem in the short term with sodium is the large voltage range they go through to use all their energy, most equipment available either simply won't operate at its lowest or highest voltage or your leaving a lot of capacity in the battery. We are going to need products that can operate at much wider voltage ranges before Sodium makes sense.

[@madmancrow7659]

Sir, you have earned thumbs 👍 👌

[@cleversolarpower]

Thanks for liking!

[@PavolFilek]

Where is a comparison of voltage, current, SOC Ah and SOC % ENERGY curves with suitable inverter/charger / MPPT ? This is only reading from pdfs which is not true. Reality is always different from pdfs specs.

[@AlexTorres-qv3hv]

They will place a huge burden on the inverters, imagine a 48v inverter going down to 24v, the current capacity of the inverter will need to be doubled and so the cost, probably will roll back to times when discharging lead acid batteries down to 50% soc was the rule of thumb....

[@cleversolarpower]

indeed, the DOD would be lower. I think the cost will offset this unused capacity in a few years time.