Sonic 3 - 50Hz vs 60Hz (PAL vs NTSC) - An informative comparison

[@IamAJoe]

I always got the sound test on 60Hz no problem as a kid. I must have that sonic speed.

[@homerhat420]

Took me a few times but once it clicked I could do it consistently, my friend asked me to do that code for him back in the day.

[@andyukmonkey]

You must be a magician. on my PAL Megadrive it took me loads of attempts every single time i tried.

[@eponymous7910]

@@andyukmonkey Me too. Absolute nightmare

[@andknuckles101]

There's a trick to it, you need to hold the controller sideways and place both of your thumbs above up and down, then it's much easier.

[@luginess0]

You got some fast fingers

[@Oysterblade84]

It appears the Sonic 3 Prototype dated (Novemeber 3rd 1993) dumped recently by Drx has the slightly slower tempo of the Sonic 3 final PAL version in NTSC format, so for those that keep saying it's not meant to be that slow, well it may have intended to sound that way in the beta builds, someone decided to speed it up by 2% for the final release.

[@Patafoin]

Mhh. What happen if a speedruner of the 3 sonic game come to the race? ( the speedruner... It's me ^^ )

[@redhotsonic]

Just to be clear, I'll be the only one on the stream, but everyone can play at the same time when I say 'Go' and then say in the chat when you've finished with your time :) Anyone can play along!

[@AngieMarioFreak2001]

Patafoin Oh hello there didn't expect to see you.

[@ethanpanes7510]

Patafoin Omg its patafon

[@rainbowrosa9385]

So ya like jazz

[@juanjuarezofficialchannel783]

How did the came in this comment

[@selbi182]

You are the only person who could use "chicken nuggets" as a curse and make it work.

[@itjuenyin]

And French fries 😋

[@kuby64]

lol

[@SuperSireBoyYT]

Selbi Inkille ii

[@thatskitguy]

It's a lie. I also do that. 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

[@drawnsky9234]

And knuckles

[@sallyluzlc]

"Oh, for chicken nuggets sake, That's the third time I've fallen for that!!" _redhotsonic, 2017_ 2:07

[@Adrian.R850]

8:56 That controller hitting your head sounds EXACTLY like when you get hurt in Minecraft.

[@redhotsonic]

Just to be clear, guys, I'll be the only one on the stream, but you can all play along at the same time. I'll say 'Go!' in the stream and will start the on-screen timer. You guys just say in the chat when you've finished and quote what the timer was displaying. The live chat will be displayed on the stream so everyone will be able to see your finished time forever :)

[@flickyfkosstitcher8547]

Sorry, but during our Facebook "discussion" I forgot to mention that I will be recording my gameplay footage; as such, will it be an overall timer for the three games, or are we timed per game? I'll also be playing on my laptop, using Fusion, and have the stream running on the PC; that way I can keep an eye on the timer(s).

[@flickyfkosstitcher8547]

Played it already, but thanks for the suggestion.

[@TheAileen27]

redhotsonic you cool

[@mrpixelperfect]

redhotsonic Sonic CD?

[@brucemanning6954]

So cool 😎 I wish I could get the game but I can not

[@sadladd]

Just found this series last night and was wanting a Sonic 3 one. Perfect timing I guess.

[@RandomisedGamingYouTube]

Sonic 3 is indeed part optimised for sound and some graphics, if you bypass the region lock on the PAL version the game has some graphics corruption at 60hz, we detailed a huge about of 50/60hz changes in our comparison video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHrRaqyljLGClbc

[@CEO100able]

Just like Sonic the Hedgehog 2, it's interesting how the music in the European PAL version of this game would sound the same as in the NTSC versions.

[@MisterChief711]

I mean there's nothing interesting beyond them just optimizing it

[@dse763]

1:55 I just waited this to happen in your 50 vs 60 Hz Sonic 3 Review :D. SEGA introduce region lock on Megadrive games in 1993 so Sonic 3 is region lock but SEGA drop it in late 1994 so Sonic & Knuckles isn't. And like you showed, putting PAL Sonic & Knuckles with PAL Sonic 3 into a Japanese Megadrive works. Due to this, Sonic Spinball is region lock but Sonic 3D isn't. 5:16 Your music comparison is kind of silly but funny 10:20 A giveaway ? That's sounds cool ! Probably in (even I don't have a Japanese Megadrive. It will be a game I won't have to buy if I may win). Oh, by the way, Chaotix is also region lock (sadly !). And Sonic CD too (but the MegaCD, contrary to the Megadrive and the 32X which are game region locked, is console region locked, It's the reason why Sonic Megamix has 3 different versions on download).

[@PercyPanleo]

Side note: Sonic 3D for the Mega Drive was never released in Japan, as it came out in 1999 on the Saturn (Because they totally didn't have Sonic Adventure as the Dreamcast's launch title a year earlier.)

[@smd89xx]

"For chicken nugget's sake thats the 3rd time i've fallen for that!"

[@Slaps-Bigmeat]

Chimkin nugget

[@TheMaskarad]

Those videos are very informative and actually helped me out - I got myself a bargain PAL Mega Drive and was thinking of getting Sonic 2 or 3 hoping that the slowdown would be treated, but I guess I'll pass on those for the time being. Thanks for the work!

[@kasaiflamevoid8008]

5:17 how my screen recorder records my video’s

[@deadaccount4411]

10/10 Joke Sorry For Late Comment

[@angelshide]

You don't need really the Japanese Sonic & Knuckles cartridge to be honest. It's, internally speaking, the same cartridge across all regions. There's no difference and no optimisation with the PAL release.

[@NativS2002]

Yeah , but he can't do the Big Cartridge, Tiny opening gag without the Japanese version

[@feiwong3634]

As a teenager i didbt own a Mega Drive but a childhood friend yes and i LOVED IT, i played at his house everyday! Sonic 1, 2 3, Streets of Rage 1 & 2, Shinobi...all the classics. It was an era without internet and we played it without knowing nothing of HZ or version differences, we played PAL speed and we assumed it was normal. UNTIL internet and personal computers came to our lives, and slowly we discovered something called NTSC and 60hz, when i played sonic 1 that way i was in awe, i couldnt believe that we were playing all those years "the wrong way". But hey, we enjoyed it and are beautiful memories from our lives. Nowadays i own a pal Megadrive with a PAL/NTSC switch and 50-60HZ selector and a RGB cable connected to a 32" Panasonic CRT, that is heaven.

[@StudioColors]

I have a small tip for you. When you do a side-by-side comparison of music, you can limit each of them to only one sound channel (right, left). It would probably fix the headache problem. The video itself is as great as ever. Very informative. Awesome job! :)

[@MrTrickBrick]

I had a tough day today, and this video was a nice surprise in my notifications! I really like this series!

[@superrayman3]

I think I know what's going on with the PAL music optimization, I don't think it was "flawed" or "incomplete" per se but rather it's what I'd call "artistic optimization" I say this because based on my observations the music seems to have been optimized in a way so that it properly syncs with the cutscenes, or pretty close to it, let's look at the opening cutscene for example, if you watch the part where knuckles hits Sonic to knock the chaos emeralds out of him the drums play at almost the exact same spot when compared to the NTSC version so as to retain the music flow of the original experience. Compare the two back to back and you'll see what I mean. Sonic 2 can get away with full music optimization as there's not really any cutscenes aside from the Wing Fortress to Death Egg transition and ending sequence. Sonic 3 on the other hand is a different situation there's at least one or two cutscenes per level so to capture as much of the original story experience as possible, they optimized the music by carefully retiming everything slower by 17%, of course the obvious tradeoff is the music will be slower but the narrative is conveyed as originally intended. That's what I think they were going for with that one.

[@Oysterblade84]

Maybe, but locking on Sonic & Knuckles to Sonic 3 in PAL speeds the music up by 2% matching the NTSC version. Something nobody can explain.

[@AshBob5000]

Oh cool, I really enjoyed the first 2 comparisons. Thanks for making one for Sonic 3.

[@AGwolf2097]

fun fact: the level select code is meant to be entered in time with the bass/drum beats that start playing after the SEGA screen fades.. UpUpDown, DownUp Up Up Up

[@itsNikash.]

Comparison videos are often the best to watch, and I always enjoy each and every one of them. Amusing intro. That was unfortunate that you didn't have the Japanese version of Sonic & Knuckles. :/ 1:53 I didn't expect to see that message regarding the region lock out. I only remember seeing a similar message for Streets of Rage 3. I struggled to do the Sonic 3 cheat code all these years. This sound driver comparison was shocking in terms of sync/de-sync. LOL, that fail at 10:00 😂 but I liked how you included a giveaway, which was a really nice encouraging touch. It adds extra excitement. Overall, you did a fantastic job on this video!

[@troywright359]

Streets of rage 3 has even worse sound optimisation in PAL.

[@itsNikash.]

@@troywright359 Don't know how the developers messed that up since the speed is inconsistent all the way.

[@nerples1149]

Now that the main chunk of the 16 bit games are done, how about games like Sonic CD, and Chaotix?

[@PeterDCOHanlon]

"Another compawison!"

[@getjinxed101]

Gabriel Rocha Don’t you mean *6,000* years later?

[@Boeing787Fan31]

2:07 Oh for chicken nuggets sake! That’s the 3rd time I have fallen for that!

[@yyyeeeaaahhh]

4:44 to 4:52 the jumps ans bumps sounds interact perfectly with the tune

[@TerraKing]

5:01 is *"MILES"* better

[@ahmadzahraniAAZ]

Why must you take advantage of someone having two names?

[@2kmuhendislikdogalgaz192]

Fun fact: Sonic 3 beta have sound select mode on the title screen,debug mode can accessable when entering level press A+START

[@shinji2898]

You look surprisingly fit tbh

[@RedHotMaki]

You used the Homer "mmm....aero"

[@justanotheryoutubechannel]

Wow, I had heard years ago that this game was PAL Optimised, I never realised it wasn’t and I’ve been happily playing it for years without ever knowing. I guess that explains why playing Sonic 3 AIR on my pc feels so much better. I swear Sonic 3 never seemed this slow though, especially when you compare it to Sonic 1 & 2 which are super slow at 50hz. I even played some of the original on my mega drive the other day after playing AIR and it felt pretty normal, it definitely didn’t feel that much slower.

[@randomthings7997]

I honestly think the music being 2% slower, as opposed to Sonic 1's 17.5% and Sonic 2's tempo-perfect music, contributes to this illusion. All games' gameplay is much slower in PAL, all operating at the same speed, but whereas Sonic 1 feels absurdly slow because of its incredibly sluggish music AND ridiculously slow gameplay, and Sonic 2 feels slow because the NTSC-perfect music juxtaposed with the same sluggish gameplay makes the latter even more noticeable, I think Sonic 3's optimization offers up a unique kind of equilibrium which might well trick some gamers into thinking it's less of a laggard conversion than it actually is.

[@DivisibleByWaffle]

That launch base music comparison really confused my cat. Great video series!

[@jak913]

I was just playing Sonic 3 & Knuckles on my PAL Mega Drive, and I noticed that the music in 50hz sounded the same as the 60hz version, but then when I switched over to Sonic 3 (Alone), the music was going slightly slower compared to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. This could mean that when SEGA were developing Sonic and Knuckles, they decided to use a different sound driver to Sonic 3's, possibly the same sound driver that was used for Sonic 2.

[@TorutheRedFox]

I just noticed, the music in the PAL version stutters a bit sometimes

[@TorutheRedFox]

@@chrisalexandercarrasco5774 the gameplay is slower because they couldn't speed it up (trust me, i tried and it caused a lot of unavoidable bugs)

[@Oysterblade84]

It just occurred to me that a very important fact was not mentioned in this video. You forgot to mention that locking on a Sonic 3 PAL cartridge to a Sonic & Knuckles cartridge (fixes) or speeds up the music by 2% matching the NTSC 60Hz versions. An important fact that was sadly left out or (intentionally) left out to make PAL look worse than it actually is. As I mentioned in another comment that the Sonic 3 prototype had the soundtrack slightly slower just like the PAL final of Sonic 3. So it was originally at that tempo in it's beta stages of development. Yes, in 60Hz aswell. Awesome video still.

[@Esth.1]

woah! your channel deserves way more subs!

[@Luix]

this is no so bad as in sonic 1, in fact is difficult to hear the difference I have european sonic 3, it took me times and times of trial and error to properly enter the cheat code

[@ziodyne44]

1:49 - 1:57 is my fav part

[@randomthings7997]

Imagine if ALL the music in the world played 2% slower. Now THAT would be a nightmare!

[@jameskidd2.072]

I wouldn’t notice it that well tbh

[@Mr_Wahee]

1:54 Hah! They made a typo! LOL

[@jessicarivera4902]

I love your energy you are now my favorite sonic channel

[@piplupglaceon3868]

1:53 made me laugh so hard

[@dshaynietheawesome]

Ive been trying to expand my classic sonic collection please does anybody know good places to buy a European cartridge of sonic 3 that doesn't have a bonkers price tag

[@Antimatter-im1ip]

dshaynie If your in the UK try CEX, it's not cheap but it's probably the best your going to get

[@CyaAqua]

I got my copy off eBay a couple years ago for like £5 but then again I live in the UK.

[@PercyPanleo]

6:20 They prioritized having unique box art over making sure the drowning jingle was correct.

[@gengar-1997]

I personally played the PAL version of Sonic 3 more than the NTSC version, and, surprise surprise, I got used to the slightly slower music.

[@Bro-cx2jc]

The special stages luckily kept their appropriate timing in 50 Hz. When playing through them, alongside the characters moving slower, the music takes longer to reach the speedups every time. It's not quite as dramatic as playing the special stages on a No Way lock-in, like Sonic 1 on the Sonic and Knuckles cart, where the special stages take REALLY long to begin speeding up (the music has to take three loops instead of two before it reaches top speed) but it's still noticeable. Just another reason it feels easier. Imagine if the music had sped up at the same parts even on the PAL version. The trade-off would still be the naturally slower speed though I guess

[@vndlls]

1:30 Sorry but I do not have 2 copies of Sonic And Knuckles 60HZ. I don't even have one copy only the EU Ver.

[@keiyakins]

Actually... You do have the Japanese edition of Sonic and Knuckles. The shells might be slightly different, but the board for S&K was identical in all regions.

[@redhotsonic]

Technically speaking, yes. Physically, I didn't. I do now though 😊

[@sharlegreg]

"And it's miles better in a lot of ways" miles better...... Nice one

[@andyukmonkey]

I always thought Sonic 3 was optimised properly until recently. I recorded some music for my own youtube channel and noticed Ice Cap Zone sounded very slightly off. Huh. One point that should be made. It didn't really matter to European Mega Drive owners if their games were slower because they weren't comparing two versions of the game on two different consoles. That is a luxury for modern retro game enthusiasts.

[@user-ku3sr7cl3u]

I know I’m very late, but I noticed something about 4:33. Something very interesting; if you play the sonic 3 November 3rd prototype and set the region to pal, the music is actually just as slow as the music was in Sonic 1! I find this interesting because if Sonic 3 was built of Sonic 2 (which, mind you, optimized the music), then why would it be slow in the prototype?

[@sixteenbitify]

It might be because the Sonic 2 sound driver was completely replaced with the new sound driver and it wasn’t yet optimized for 50hz.

[@Windo0ows]

It’s because they were still working on the new sound driver

[@LoganLanimations]

You hit the monitor and bumper perfectly with the beat: 4:46

[@theobserver4214]

Wait you aren't finished yet! You still haven't done Sonic CD. Also the reason why Sonic 3 is region locked is because each region version of Sonic 3 was programmed differently. I wonder if Japanese carts will fit in the Genesis console for us Americans?

[@peoplescat]

RED HOT SONIC DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS A MOD OF TAILS WITH HIS FLICKY AMRY OF DEATH IN SONIC MANIA

[@nechokeyquin7023]

Nice. I was waiting for this.

[@WhiteJarrah]

Sega started region locking their games in 1993. If you have a Magic Key III, you can play post-1993 PAL games on a Japanese Mega Drive and vice versa. It alleviates the issue of the cartridges not fitting without any need to enlarge the slot. The Magic Key doesn't do anything about the speed, it only bypasses the region lockout. So PAL games will run at 60Hz in Japanese console and Japanese games will run at 50Hz in a PAL console.

[@xiaoqing2846]

God the music comparison is horrifying

[@Oysterblade84]

You're not by any chance related to Elmer Fudd are you? ''You pesky wabbit''

[@theobserver4214]

9:42 I believe Sonic Jam for EU optimized the music (it is CDDA)

[@lemonadesnake]

hey, that looks like the couch i used to have!

[@RevolverOcelot1]

1:30. When they ask if you're OK and you say that you're fine but you're not fine.

[@Orangatang1998]

5:17 to 5:47: so this is what it sounds like in hell

[@IvanovIvanAKrutoi]

For Wade Robson and James Safechuck, maybe.

[@anthonylara2874]

What about sonic 3d blast 60hz vs 50hz

[@adddambiroonak6462]

Honestly sonic 2 &3 are actually pretty ok to play in 50hz however sonic 1 I would never touch it lol.

[@sarnobat2000]

The widescreening on PAL also explains why it looks like Sonic has been squashed by Jupiter gravity. EDIT: actually you explained this around 7:00 after I posted :)

[@sonicboy678]

I'd love to see you try sticking that shiitake mushroom into that tiny European slot! *shot*

[@newgameld2512]

Btw, I have the US cartridge of Sonic & Knuckles. Will that work as an alternative to the JPN version? I'm certain it's 60Hz.

[@yadielgaming5337]

3:06 Try doing that code in Sonic and Knuckles Collection where they made the Sonic on the Title Screen move even faster!

[@szonig_pl3024]

Please send me this code, I always can make this level select on 60Hz =P

[@SonicToons-ot2xq]

For 50Hz on carnival Night zone the sounds are just in tune with the music here's some proof 4:49-4:53

[@Valientlink]

The reduced pitch of 50hz applies to the NTSC releases of sonic mega collection for some reason

[@glitchedblood]

Yeah. Even though those aren’t PAL roms

[@LoganOnTheRun20]

5:20 I don't know if was the intense moment of "oh jeez my head is gonna hurt" or did the music make it hurt

[@NicePasta]

I'll be on this stream because I want to start collecting genesis games.

[@zyriuz2]

NicePasta its way nicer mind you almost every boxed copy is in fairly good condition and usually included manual as well, thanks to segas genious convenient plastic game cases

[@daniele-3132]

1:00 the annotation is dead

[@chedaki]

On the sonics ultimate genesis collection (mega drive ultimate collection for PAL) if you use any version on a PAL tv it uses the pal soundtrack and the mega drive ultimate collection on a NTSC tv it plays the NTSC soundtrack

[@waxata_k]

waiting for it!

[@Zmiize94]

The sonic and knuckles cartridge is the same across regions, the only difference is the box art. So it's safe to plug your Japanese Sonic 3 cartridge on top of the sonic and knuckles that you already own.

[@thatrandomguyig5367]

0:22 OH GOD IT HURTS

[@troywright359]

I can't believe people feel like this game is unplayable in 50hz. It feels better to me than origins plus at the moment with those bugs

[@lilacocto9103]

the 2 Versions of Launch base zone were synced at the START but they eventually sound like a un-synced mess

[@PLANDerLinde99]

Nobody: Sonic in the Sonic 3 title screen: Wink

[@sanicfan7654]

At 8:00 why

[@suns3t_t0wn]

Damn, 4 years and still no S3B (Sonic & Knuckles) or S3C (Sonic 3 & Knuckles)

[@dshaynietheawesome]

I am very curious since sonic 3 and knuckles has bug fixes and so on does it optimise anything from sonic 3 on pal when sonic 3 is locked on to sonic and knuckles

[@fabianhcarsnvlogs]

yay its finally here!!!

[@dshaynietheawesome]

How do you get you megadrives recorded in such good quality

[@TheDanJackson]

I was never able to do the cheat code as a kid, I just wriggled the cartridge and got the level select that way 😂

[@MrPropperYT]

i play sonic 3 with 60hz in emulators *BRUH*

[@glamrockbandit]

2:07 I nearly spat out my Yoo-hoo send help

[@RiderNexus]

Hope I can play the games the same time as you stream

[@hoanghieu5138]

I forgot to mention that sonic 3 can bypass region lock(it requires you to have game genie)

[@andytaylor1806]

The region lock is a strange thing. I haven't actually found that many different region games that don't play on a European Megadrive... strangely I've found that some of the games that are region locked aren't locked at all if you play them through a 32X

[@theonionkingdom8060]

Wish I had a PAL version of Sonic 3. Too bad it goes for pretty high prices, at least the last time I checked. I actually bought the PAL version of Sonic 2 for 8 bucks at an American game store! By the way redhotsonic, will you be doing a 50hz vs 60hz of Sonic Spinball or Sonic 3D Blast/Flickies Island? I'd love to know!

[@tetrasonic91]

I have all pal sonic games, just sonic 3 missing it's manual, same for mean bean, i don't have sonic and knuckles' box or manual, the same goes for spinball

[@luginess0]

the only reason there is a lock out was to not allow pirated carts of s3 (it would be the other regions) to play since the intention of sega was to release the full 15 zone spanding game as one but due to pirates they had to release s3 alone June 2021 edit: Did I have no standards of grammer?

[@thatstupidthomasfan]

Today Is The 3 Year Anniversary Of This Video!

[@deadaccount4411]

Yay

[@Knuxfan24]

So Sonic 3D Blast 50hz VS 60hz when? :P

[@alessandrorizzi2871]

Sonic 3 NO WAY! Comparison confirmed But he would need & Knuckles japanese edition

[@subjectfnaf]

But rhs you have seen sonic rom hacks in 50hz so you can just use the genesis flash card for sonic and knuckles 60hz vs 50hz

[@Errughor]

maybe faster gameplay (60hz) is preferable but but the slower pace of the music is stuck in my head since my childhood so much that the faster version makes it unplayable for me.

[@zykotic06]

1:25 get the US version

[@sonicthehedgehogfan0017]

Can't wait to join and play against your time. : )