Sonic Forces: an in Depth Analysis of Failure

#SonicTheHedgehog #Sonic #SonicForces
behold, the most forgettable entry to the series in a long time. But why is that? Well, I'll try and answer that question in a boring way, enjoy
Music Used:
- Festival of Stars (Chrono Trigger OST)
- Fist Bump (Sonic Forces OST)
- Windy Hill Zone 2 (Sonic Lost World OST)
- Park Avenue (Sonic Forces OST)
- City Escape Classic Mix (Sonic Generations OST)
- Lights, Camera, Action! (Sonic Mania OST)
- Boss Battle 2 (Sonic Colors OST)
- Sweet Mountain (Sonic Colors OST)
- Sunset Heights (Sonic Forces OST)
- Fighting Onward (Sonic Forces OST)
- Silent Forest Zone 1 (Sonic Lost World OST)
- Stardust Speedway Act 2 (Sonic Mania OST)
- Rooftop Run Classic Remix (Sonic Generations OST)
Gameplay captured by:
NeoTechnoman
BlueSkyGameplay
with all that out the way, thanks for watching and I shall see you in the next one

[@TomTopics]

I don’t know why this video seems to be gaining traction out of nowhere all of a sudden, but anyway, this vid is severely outdated now and doesn’t reflect my current views on whatever the fuck. If you’re new here please please PLEASE look at my more recent stuff. It’s much higher quality than whatever this was and probably isn’t filled with a million errors like this

[@NewSkater3000]

thats cool 👍

[@SpeedMotionSamic]

4:46 I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you can make a story about 4 turtles who know karate serious, there is literally no reason Sonic can't do the same.

[@devonrichardson44]

I completely agree and im a huge tmnt fan the 2003 series was dark well at least the 4 seasons and it work so I guess it all really depends on the writers to make the story good

[@calistusjay60]

We don’t even want a “serious” sonic. Make a sonic story cartoony and wacky if you want. But do it like unleashed. Where it almost like a Pixar movie.

[@Max-Rtpmp]

@@calistusjay60 "sonic story wacky and cartoony"-"unleashed"...what xD light hearted yes,wacky and cartoony I don't think so

[@calistusjay60]

@@Max-Rtpmp chip literally dies in a cutscene and turns into a Hannah Barbara ghost.

[@Max-Rtpmp]

@@calistusjay60 yeah like I said it's light hearted but the story overall take itself pretty seriously

[@shadowfall5278]

I personally disagree with the notion that Sonic can’t attempt more serious stories because the series stars cartoon animals. Yes the premise is ridiculous but the same thing can be said with any other series if you break it down like that. Ninja Turtles, Batman, Dragon Ball, Kingdom Hearts are all ridiculous yet they don’t get criticized for taking themselves seriously.

[@Dewxy]

I wouldn’t say Batman is silly and can’t be serious. He is a vigilante fighting crime and calls himself batman. That can be taken seriously. Ninja Turtles somehow turned edgy and went into a real life remake I guess that’s ok to be taken seriously. Dragon Ball is a weird anime I don’t like it but again I can see why it’s taken seriously. Kingdom Hearts I can slightly agree with you. But Sonic, little blue fast ass hedgehog who is friends with a two tails fox and a red echidna fighting in a war against something called “The Phantom Ruby” to take back the world from EggMan. And you think this can be taken seriously?

[@shadowfall5278]

Yes it can be taken seriously. Like I said before on my previous comment, literally any work of fiction is silly if you break it down the concept like that. I’m not saying Sonic should be dark knight levels of dark and edgy because that wouldn’t fit the series at all. But to deny Sonic the attempt at anything remotely serious because it stars a blue hedgehog is too restrictive in my opinion. To be honest, the problem with the narrative in Sonic games isn’t the tone, it’s just that Sonic Team can’t write a story to save their lives. They should get Ian Flynn, the writer for the Archie and idw sonic comics to write for the games.

[@Dewxy]

@@shadowfall5278 i guess i could agree with you but i just legit couldn't take this serious. Freedom fighting furries against a fat dude. idk you take what you want serious just my opinion

[@shadowfall5278]

Dewy Oh no, even though I may disagree with you, it’s still your opinion at the end of the day! It’s a problem in this fanbase when people go at each other’s throats over different opinions about a series for kids.

[@Dewxy]

@@shadowfall5278 yeah your right

[@SwiftAsTheWind]

I honestly disagree with the "he's a cartoon blue hedgehog" point. I think that more serious plots can work for Sonic. Sonic Adventure 2 had Sonic in a realistic world stopping the Ark from crashing into Earth and killing everyone on it, and that was pulled off fine.

[@Chibiknux]

I strongly disagree too. Sonic has been into the dystopian world taken by an evil empire before in SatAM, other 3d games and the archie comics (with multiple results of quality...) But thing is it CAN be done alright, but the Graff/Pontac duo could never pull it off, nor the actual Sonic team

[@Dewxy]

Well since then that's all he's really been.

[@WolforNuva]

Yeah, the conflict in themes isn't that Sonic doesn't work with the story they had, it's the the writers don't know how to write Sonic in a more serious way (or debateably at all), and keep writing him to be a goofy confident hero even after he was kidnapped and supposedly tortured.

[@AtomicoMacaco]

@@Dewxy Not really. Up until The Black Knight, the franchise still took itself seriously. And this was 8 years after Adventure 2.

[@littenfire3563]

Yeah Sonic used to be like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Cartoon animal who just so happened to be badass. Now Sonic's been dumbed down for like REALLY little kids when Sonic used to appeal to everyone

[@frostnova2144]

It's not the story that's the issue, it's the way the story is handled. It presents you with a dystopian story but there is no genuine effort put into such a notion. Sonic adventure 2's last story featured the death/murder of a young girl, a weapon capable of destroying the entire world, an incomplete biological monster that intended to destroy the earth when the original weapon failed because of a madman's last desire to take revenge on all of humanity. Sonic Adventure 2 is regarded as one of the greatest games in the franchise for a reason and the story is a hugeee part of that. The characters begin to act and grow in accordance to these dire situations. Sonic Forces presents a "world" that is several times more dire and has several times higher stakes than sonic adventure 2, from the second the story starts! but it still doesn't take the world that it presents seriously and that's why it's terrible, not because sonic characters are too "colourful" Despite that point, this is a good video. Forces is a genuine blight on the entire franchise.

[@andresortiz9558]

I disagree with your point that sonic can’t work in a more serious setting as the comics and SATAM have pulled off this exact plot before and they’re beloved by those who know about them. I’d argue that the premise itself wasn’t flawed, it was sega’s execution of the concept that make it seem silly.

[@johanroyce6324]

Also look at the Archie comics Eggman was literally in control of most of the world and had cyborg bosses who rule his conquered lands for him. In other words Eggman was a legit threat to the heroes.

[@sumstoopidcreator]

But hey that's just an opinion, a cool and reasonable opinion!

[@Komodo772]

I absolute respect you for making this video. You’re really underrated too. I hope more people will recognise your channel.

[@MrIkariam2]

Not gonna lie, I really love Infinite theme...

[@charmyzard]

Not to mention he just showed his "Bout 1" fight song as "his theme", ignoring his main metal vocal theme.

[@TurboPikachu]

32:02 Forces isn't alone on this. Mario Odyssey also abolished the lives system, with the penalty being just 10 coins. But where I'm okay with Mario Odyssey's lack of a lives system is after beating the game, as Darker Side and its "Long Journey's End" final challenge are incredibly difficult yet satisfying original stages - yes I lost like 100 lives to Long Journey's End, but its deadly obstacles were so well designed that I always felt a huge motivation to play it all the way through. If Forces' more-difficult challenges were original stages from the ground up (kind of like the incredible challenge stages of Unleashed) instead of mostly-2D Mario-maker-esque stages, it probably wouldn't have been my least-favorite Sonic game of all time.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Can we stop with the "This goofy blue thing can't have serious storylines because that's cringe" that's not what's wrong with this awful game or this franchise, the problem is the games are constantly dogshit and are half baked in the story department. I'm so over this "mascot character X has funny haha cartoon eyes and thus can't have serious plot lines" garbage this narrative is so pervasive that the last 3 games prior to this shitstorm of a product had no story of any kind and were not to those game's benefit.

[@TomTopics]

Ye, my opinions have changed since this video came out, and to be honest this is probably one of the worst things I’ve made so far. What I meant to say initially was that the type of serious plot Forces was going for just straight up didn’t work since it goes back and forth on being serious and overly light hearted. The way Adventure 2 did it was much better, so yeah, I failed on delivery here, and I agree with you 👌

[@naschaos25jxf57]

This game was majoritly handled by japan sonic team which is now disbanded. They now have a 3 other teams working on projects instead of one. So safe to say we won’t get another mess up like forces. Now everything else is up in the air.

[@syweb2]

Some of the key goofs, like references to "torture" and Tails "losing it" were actually a result of poor localization, probably from western localizers not having kicked their habit of making things more "extreme".

[@joshgroban5291]

4:53 to be fair it's been done before and better. SATAM, sonic, underground and the Archie comics may not be the most loveable stories in the world but I always found them extremely enjoyable and much deeper than than Sonic Forces. Especially robotnik's design in those. Reading about Sonics father dealing with the fact that he's a robot and he still tries to love his family and protect his son is more engaging than this entire game

[@syweb2]

About your "conflicting themes" point: have you _seen_ SatAM? The Archie comics? They had all or most of those things you think is impossible for Sonic, but they did them _well_ (for the most part; Ken Penders was an issue); Forces' problem was the execution. It tried to be serious and cheesy at the same time, which didn't mesh well, and the poor writing and localization didn't help. If it had taken some cues from SatAm, fluctuating between seriousness and levity in a natural way that didn't feel forced (hee hee, funny title word) while also having writing that was actually worth a damn, then it would have been better. 8:55 I'm surprised you didn't take the low-hanging fruit of "He's basically a shitty red knockoff of Bowser" (which is completely true). I don't know if you just didn't think of that point, or were trying to be a little more comprehensive, but I like the originality. I honestly didn't even make the Devil connection until you mentioned it. 10:35 I like your reinterpretation of the Zavok fight, it has a neat flow to it that sounds like an interesting bit of gameplay. 15:24 Once again surprised that you didn't mention that his fight is a literal copy+paste of Metal Sonic's. Actual valid criticisms you're passing up, my dude, you're dropping the ball! 15:37 This game's "instruments" are really subpar. Most of them are just the same blaring synths that really grate, and turn otherwise good compositions into meh level themes - seriously, I love the classic Death Egg level theme, but I will only listen to remixes because the original doesn't have good instruments. 38:28 The Phantom Plot Device does whatever the writers damn well please, and it infuriates me. It appeared in Sonic Mania, and it just seemed to teleport people around, create portals to other places in the world, upgrade robots, and manifest weird hologram hands on that one Eggman mech in Titanic Monarch (it also creates a portal that drags Classic Sonic into Forces, but you wouldn't know that if you only played Forces). In Forces, in creates illusions that can apparently interact with people I think(?), lets Infinite fly, and maybe does other minor things that I forgot because they only show up once or something. Very poorly written. 41:30 Lots of people have already said this, but this line was in reference to the cutscene with the recurring antagonists that you only fight half of - you know, the one you (rightfully) blasted for misleading the player. 43:50 That particular plot hole comes courtesy of the localization team, and is nowhere to be found in the original script. _Yippee_ 47:40 Makes ya feel old, don't it?

[@naotohex]

I actually think the rebel type of plot can work for sonic, hell it technically already has since the archie comics did that initially. The problem was the execution of the story not the concept itself. Saying its bad because Sonic can't fit that tone isnt really an excuse.

[@charmyzard]

And the SatAM show as well, so Forces had no excuse since the start to be this awful.

[@imnotkaiser]

In episode shadow, the city should have looked waaaaay different than sunset heights, it should have been all repaired and normal looking

[@charmyzard]

Agreed, a little run down, but not yet to the extent of Sunset Heights to denote it's a PREQUEL episode. But tell that to SEGA, knowing what they did to this game as a whole, they wouldn't anyway.

[@anthonyjefferson6421]

I’d say that sonic unleashed looks way better graphically due to it being over 10 YEARS OLD !!!!

[@protozerodarkzx9856]

True

[@Gnidel]

In motion. When you stop, Forces looks better thanks to much better vegetation, shaders and textures. Unleashed just slaps lots of effects - as they should in Forces as well, it creates illusion of speed (which is more important than actual speed).

[@peteypiranalover]

Forces has my favorite concept in any long running franchise with zero effort which made it more insulting. All the main hero's in the franchise vs all the villians

[@Khyon521]

Because they didn’t try, we know they didn’t try. That’s why Unleashed as controversial as the wherehog is, still gets a ton of praise. If 06 Actually worked that game would’ve made a great Sonic Adventure 3. We can tell that they didn’t care when making Forces

[@jayceallen6530]

Werehog isnt perfect but i know there was effort placed there, he has dozens of combo moves that are pretty well animated, and the level design was actually catered to him pretty well, 2 or 3 levels drag on a little but that was really my only problem with it

[@damongambuti]

41:35 it’s in reference to the first cutscene of the game when sonic gets jumped

[@TomTopics]

Oh yeah. Well I feel fucking stupid now :|

[@damongambuti]

TomTopics ah we’ve all been there don’t worry

[@Mr_Sega]

5:58 you’re joking right? Nobody loves lost world’s, colors, and generations story for being too basic and childish.

[@JMB_Knight]

For me the gameplay carry’s the new games instead of the plot when it should be both

[@itzfresh5650]

I feel like forces should’ve took a SA2 styled story system, where the stakes increasingly get higher until the climax. With Forces there’s barely any rising tension and what happened at the end could’ve been at the start because the story didn’t have anything meaningful going on.

[@switchstar190]

I agree with all of this except the first part and I can sum it up with 4 words. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. That concept is far more out there than Sonic and they have plenty of dark stories. Same for Spider-Man or Batman. If I wrote those stories off as nonsense based on concept I'd be run off the internet. I don't understand why it's so bad when Sonic tries to get into a dark lot but other silly ideas like Ninja Turtles can and it's encouraged. Sonic has had dark stories and in fact the Deep stories are what personally brought me and many others back to Sonic over characters like Crash or Mario. Sonic Adventure 2 in my opinion had a great story and it was dark, deep, full of twists, great characters, and even pretty good acting and had phenomenal steaks. Proof to me that Forces story had potential. It wasn't screwed up because of it being Sonic, it was screwed up being of bad writing and everything else you said. That's just my opinion though but I'm sure plenty of others agree with me

[@TomTopics]

I can see where you’re coming from ye, but I felt as if this games plot focussed too much on the war aesthetic it was conveying throughout the whole thing. Adventure 2’s story has dark elements that work because they were rooted in the characters themselves. With that, drama arose from their personalities. Whereas in forces, it tries to show drama through the whole military aspect and that doesn’t mesh as well as the whole personality thing in adventure 2. By all means, if Sega want to make a darker themed sonic game, they can go ahead. But having that serious, dark theme revolve around war as opposed to the characters themselves, that doesn’t work as well imo

[@switchstar190]

@@TomTopics Yea that's what I was getting at.

[@syweb2]

@@TomTopics I think you worded your point pretty poorly in the video, as it came off as _super_ condescending and not at all what you're saying here.

[@jayceallen6530]

@@TomTopics I definitely feel like it was poor execution that ruined it, i would be able to take this war story seriously if it didnt feel so inconsistent and to the point in a bad way, with things just happening as soon as they are explained or said. The biggest problem with this war plot is that its so heavily catered towards the rookie or sonic(but mostly the rookie) to where the other characters feel like their just sucking up to the rookie or sonic to do all the war stuff for them.

[@promiseomiponle810]

I’m just realizing that they completely left out the trick sequences and fuckin drifting in this game.....they fr left out all the things that made previous boost games not so damn automated

[@dannyyounger5011]

40:58 the ending of Sonic mania where he gets all the seven chaos emeralds the phantom Ruby opens a portal to another dimension

[@quatreraberbawinner2628]

I've never been a die hard sonic fan, but I do find peoples obsession with this game interesting

[@syweb2]

This is what happens when you build up expectations and then let people down with mediocrity.

[@littenfire3563]

4:56 yes yes he does. That's literally what Sonic SATAM did and people loved it. Sonic always had some dark themes to it even in the classic games. In StH 2's bad ending, you see an image of Tails in the sky, a cliche indicating the person is like a spirit in the sky, aka Tails is dead. StH 3 Eggman sets an entire forest on fire in an attempt to kill Sonic as one of the 1st levels of the game. Sonic CD bad future implies Eggman would destroy all life on Little Planet as all the animals and plant life are gone, implying deforestation and the death of every animal in their habitat Knuckles being the last Echidna in his tribe means basically the entire tribe suffered genocide Sonic has always had dark elements to it. It's only in the more recent games that they dumbed down Sonic to be for really little kids instead of something everyone can enjoy

[@promiseomiponle810]

Lol bruh metal sonic was only in adventure as an unlockable character, and that was in DX😂😭also sonic cd was his very first appearance

[@Continental_Champ]

You called the Egg Dragoon theme catchy but said that Infinite's theme had bad direction. WOW. What exactly do you even mean by bad direction anyway? And if we wanna get technical, that's not the main theme of Infinite. That's one of his battle themes. Kinda weird to compare it to the others' main themes.

[@justsoup3726]

Wait why aren't there more views? This video is amazing! Keep up the good work.

[@alanchavez5962]

Man don’t be hating on Omega! Great video though, I hope Sega considers your input at the least

[@JMB_Knight]

At least SEGA listens to their fans unlike Nintendo

[@littenfire3563]

Shadow isn't edgy. He was originally but Shadow is just a more stoic and serious person who's not that expressive but does care about his friends. People like this exist irl and that doesn't make them edgy

[@bubbykins4864]

Edge ≠ cringy tryhard, as Sonic and Shadow (when written well) both prove.

[@zap648]

Oh... So that's why humans weren't in Sonic Forces.

[@EdmacZ]

Sonic games can take themselves seriously. Serious Sonic stories can work. But once again, the franchise's lack of consistency and confidence ruins this idea. If Sonic team just stuck to what they wanted to do instead of all of these radical design shifts, then maybe Sonic games could get away with taking themselves more seriously. Instead, their attempts come off as laughable because they are insincere. Who is to say they isn't a real attempt at making a real story and instead chasing the latest trend or just going for nostalgia fan hype? I could be wrong on this of course.

[@windowschamp3799]

I was okay with the gameplay criticism and writing critique, but when you started nitpicking the plot stuff your arguments get weak. For one, the original phantom ruby is from classic Sonic's dimension as shown in Sonic Mania (him and the ruby were sent to Modern Sonic's dimension when the phantom ruby and chaos emeralds resonances interfered with each other at the true end of Mania), and he is not an illusion like the other things that just vanished, he's just misplaced from his own dimension. Classic Sonic got his own timeline and dimension when the timeline splits due to him meeting his future self in Sonic Generations. Also when Sonic was talking about Shadow was working for Dr. Eggman before level 15. he was talking about when the previous game bosses ganged up on him at the beginning of this game after level 1 including an illusionary Shadow.

[@syweb2]

Good point, but very little of this info is present in the game itself, and what little of it there is is worded in one of the worst ways possible. Don't expect people to try to make sense of something presented in a garbage manner.

[@windowschamp3799]

@@syweb2 @syweb2 Yeah but he litterally made contextual references to some of these elements such as Shadow working for Eggman and having enjoyed Sonic Mania earlier in the video but couldn't connect the dots. I'll give him a pass on Sonic from another dimension because that confuses a lot but the other stuff is more readily obvious, unless you want to bash Sonic Mania as well, and the Shadow thing is really obvious if you realize how short the game itself is and one thing happened at the beginning and the other the middle.

[@syweb2]

@@windowschamp3799 Someone pointed out the Shadow bit to him in the comments, and he replied pointing out that he realized the mistake, so that one's a moot point now. The thing about Classic not being an illusion shouldn't matter, as he's still there because of the Ruby. If more things were brought over and stuck around for a bit, then that would set a precedent for that kind of thing, but as it stands it's kind of stupid and inconsistent. Honestly, I just don't think he realized Sonic Mania had a plot at all, let alone one that was supposed to connect to Forces. That, or he's suppressing any thoughts of these two being connected in any way.

[@windowschamp3799]

@@syweb2 @syweb2 Everything else " brought over" was illusions. Classic Sonic is litterally made up of matter not light like everything else. That's like taking a bunch of fish out of water and they are suffocating, but then taking a frog out and it isn't and saying it's inconsistent, they are two different things. One thing can effect two different things in different ways.

[@gabeitches87]

The retcon that "Classic Sonic is from another dimension" is still both nonsensical and unnecessary. It didn't need to happen and there's no good explanation for why it did nor why Modern Tails would even know about it. It was well established that Classic Sonic is just younger Modern Sonic from the Sonic 3 & Knuckles days who got sucked into the whole Time Eater situation alongside everyone else in Generations, not an "alternate dimension Sonic". Plain and simple. Generations is a game literally all about time -- re-living through past experiences (and future ones from Classic Sonic's POV), seeing familiar faces, and trying to restore the natural flow of time to the way its supposed to be with the help of the Chaos Emeralds and all the friends they rescued. From the moment Modern Eggman tampered with time and pulled Classic Eggman out of his timeline to team up with him in order for them to perfect the Time Eater to erase and rewrite history in their favor, the events of Classic Sonic's timeline were altered and strayed away from the main timeline. By the time Classic Sonic returns to his own timeline at the end of Generations, he has: went through Speed Highway, City Escape, Seaside Hill, Crisis City, Rooftop Run, and Planet Wisp. He's met Shadow, Rouge, Omega, Silver (a character who's *also* from a different timeline, and notice how they always say that he's from the future/a different time period and not "another dimension"), Vector, Charmy, Espio, Cream, Big, and Blaze _(who's _*_actually from an alternate dimension_*_ by the way and she's literally Sonic's counterpart in her dimension and not just another Sonic who happens to be younger)._ Not to mention he re-lived through Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary, the fight against Metal Sonic from CD, and the fight against the Death Egg Robot. Then of course there's the final fight where he teams up with Modern Sonic, they both go Super, and they fight both Classic and Modern Eggman in the Time Eater together. There's even a little scene afterwards where Classic Sonic is trying to learn to Boost like Modern Sonic can after watching him do it, but he can't really pull it off yet. Also, Classic Eggman learned about all of his future losses to Sonic and his friends and then just suffered through another one by losing to Super Modern Sonic and Super Classic Sonic alongside Modern Eggman. Then at the very end, Classic Sonic and Classic Tails return to their own timeline. The fact that all of this happened to a younger version of Modern Sonic when he's never even went through all those events in his youth (until much later as we know) means that a different line of events is set to occur now for Classic Sonic, Classic Tails, Classic Eggman, and everyone else in that timeline -- aka.. _a whole different timeline that branches off from the main one._ Sonic Mania's existence even proves this. Sonic Mania is confirmed to be in its own timeline set straight after Generations, y'know.. after Classic Eggman escapes White Space and returns to his timeline and Classic Sonic also returns to his timeline through a portal. I can say a lot more to back up my argument but I think I've said enough as it is. Don't wanna make you read _too_ much now. I'll just finish this comment off with this: _Being from a timeline separate from the main one and being from an entirely different dimension are two different things. He's referred to as _*_CLASSIC_*_ Sonic -- the name literally tells you who he is and where he's from unless you don't know the definition and implications of the word "Classic"._

[@mediakira6621]

Another issue I have is that it doesn’t even seem like Eggman’s taken over. It feels it he’s in the MIDDLE of doing so. Like where’s the the Eggman symbols, the TVs boasting his ego and propaganda? Nothing. Yeah there’s death egg robots but again, they’re crashing a city and there’s even some ruined BEFORE he even defeats Sonic And I’d argue infinite’s motivation is pettier than Broly’s

[@nfstyles]

Underrated ass channel. Good job on the video!!

[@barblydrama6822]

You briefly raised the point about Sonic not fitting in a war setting: this isn't necessarily true. I mean the Archie Comics run is essentially 24 years of the Knothole Freedom Fighters warring with the Eggman Empire, with a few secondary villains often taking the spotlight instead of, or alongside, Eggman. However, Archie Comics managed to find a balance of Sonic-style banter and flair in a fairly whimsical environment with a few darker issues such as Issue #175. But your main point still stands, Forces doesn't balance its dark theme with its joyful (if mostly bland imo) soundtrack and dialogue. I guess I'm just a crazed Archie fan but those comics get a bit too much hate sometimes.

[@reiphas]

You made a point about how Sonic shouldn't be serious, because it doesn't work with the child friendly setting. I disagree, child friendly settings are the best, in my opinion, bases for mature, dark and heavy storytelling. Sonic SATAM for example, I don't think the show would be nearly as memorable and beloved if it wasn't for it's serious tone, I think even the comics touched on dark themes. You don't need blood, swearing and genocide shown onscreen to have a mature and serious or even a dark story told to you, and I'd even say, serious and dark stories are better delivered, when you don't have that huge 18+ sign on the box, they hit harder, stick longer. You can do anything when your writing is good and you don't rely on the grim setting to do your job for you.

[@shaankelly1302]

Infinites boss stage theme is awesome. That is all

[@mittensdacat]

I agree with most of this video but there were 2 things that kind of irked me... 1) Sonic can work in a more serious setting, he's done it before in the Adventure games, SATAM and the comics, it's just that Forces fell flat on the execution 2) while I don't exactly agree with the inclusion of classic Sonic, it was implied in Mania that it wasn't Infinite who brought him there, but the past version of the Phantom Ruby reacting to the power of the chaos emeralds

[@Filipe1020]

Speaking of Sonic Forces story, I think it does fit with Sonic, after all throught the whole series history Eggman is trying to take over the world, so I always wanted to see a narrative where he actually succeed in doing so, making Sonic and his friends fighting for survival and take their world back. But the problem with Forces is how they butchered that concept, ruining the story that could have been really well done.

[@EpicStikyBot]

0:21 *the difference is night, and day.*

[@anthonyjefferson6421]

Idk if it’s just me but I’d say that sonic unleashed is the only game where sonic actually goes his fastest and no not because of the speed meter

[@Max-Rtpmp]

what u mean? he didn't state anywhere that it was his fastest?but if you're talking in terms of numbers and feat than yes

[@zigaudrey]

Why video like this are ignored? It is how the Sonic Forces fandom is? At this rate, the Sonic series is dead franchise. They should start on others IP like Jet Set Radio.

[@littenfire3563]

33:40 I feel the exact same way. The Lives system is necessary for Platformers unless the game itself is already designed to be extremely unforgiving like Crash Bandicoot, where the levels themselves will kick your ass and make you lose a ton of lives.

[@garretts6678]

Sonic 06 flopped because of a brutal time crunch and abysmal management. What's Forces' excuse?!

[@nightdemon3442]

Nice editing tom 👌

[@KaiserLatao]

"First" is the word that dumb people pronounce that it actually means: i am a horrible person

[@FlowPlex]

Nice, gonna watch later.

[@Barkerbg001]

I think Sonic fits very well in a war setting

[@JMB_Knight]

Excuse me, you think a blue hedgehog with the power to break the sound barrier fits in the concept of war?

[@bubbykins4864]

I know it can work, because Sonic has pulled off dark tones plenty of times before. The war setting in particular has been done properly by both DiC and Archie Comics (Ken Penders notwithstanding), proving that Sonic Forces having a bad plot is a skill issue, not something inherent to an IP initially marketed towards teens whose main antagonist regularly partakes in slavery.

[@sekundaforgamer1238]

Tbh, I actually want Sonic to be a mix of both serious and cartoon friendly. There can be light hearted games like Colours and Lost World, and serious and dark games like SA2 and Shadow the hedgehog. This is just my opinion by the way👍

[@theunknown0887]

Mass genocide was in sonic so war doesn’t seem out of place...

[@Nic_2751]

To be fair, Pac-Man World 3 handles a literal war story in a cartoony platformer way better and more tastefully.

[@peteypiranalover]

Of the music between shadow, deadly six, infinite, and colors bosses. Infinite is my favorite, still great but more memorable than the other 3 you gave

[@tuangaming4910]

16:12 That not even Infinite main Theme lmao

[@grapejuice8595]

The only good boss is the one they ripped from Lost World which was already ripped from Colors apparently

[@deslardesslok]

6 MONTHS LATE SQUAD WHERE YOU AT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[@Dewxy]

amazing video mate you deserve more than 88

[@roshaundawilson6265]

excuse me in all-stars racing transformed metal sonic is a playable character, not a boss fight ok, please know I understand your anger yes he's reused in generations in colors ultimate moble game sonic dash so don't hate me I'm only 12

[@evdestroy4121]

You lost me when you said the plot should be like Colors, Generations, and Lost World. No. God no.

[@TomTopics]

Jesus did I say that? Ok well rest assured that I definitely don’t stand by that anymore, I haven’t rewatched this in months upon months

[@swr.nezumi]

wait what the fuck is that boxart usually metal, eggman, and infinite are at the top but that has infinite and shadow

[@marlo176]

At the end of Sonic mania classic sonic was teleported by the phantom Ruby to sonic forces

[@sponge_playzz]

someone needs to make a incorrect summary of this game, it will make the story better

[@TRG_R17]

Sup A Sup

[@peteypiranalover]

As bad as Zavok's boss fight is it is my second favorite boss fight in the game. First Eggman fight was the only other one I find decent

[@peaceunion5316]

Dark or mature sonic plots have worked: sonic 3, adventure, adventure 2,unleashed balanced it

[@EA-bv8zk]

I actually likes infinite's theme it's a bop But the character is absolute trash

[@mediakira6621]

That and the levels are ridiculously short

[@tadaokou4919]

I don't like Sonic Forces...but I still dislike this video. Yeah, it's a shit game but you got the reasons for that completly wrong. Stopped watching when you started bashing on the music which is probably the most subjective thing in existence. There actually are people out there (me for example) who like Infinites theme. Besides that Sonic proved more than enough in the past that darkes storys can work in this universe. Mainly in the cartoon and comic/manga adaptations. Your conclusion is correct. This is a shitty game. But you just give us completly subjective reasons in this video on which I disagree with. It's not like this story couldn't work. It just didn't work here because of bad writters and execution. There is always subjectivity in some form in any review...but really? Bashing the OST?

[@themarblegardener7925]

I think forces irks fans is because it had potential but they just flopped. Maybe they need to let fans who know the characters and world better than the actual people working on these games have an input 🤷🏻‍♀️ they need to figure out who they want this game to appeal to, it flopped with a lot of fans and from my experience my son who was 7 when this came out wasn’t interested in the game play, the only thing he liked was the OC creator.

[@AdiX645]

very epic

[@NasirBrown-c6d]

I like sonic forces

[@BaneofCid]

I got 5 minutes into this and this is already very wrong. Sonic being about war has always been a thing even in classic Sonic games. this is nothing new to the series you just fail to see it. look at the early cartoons. the comics and yes the real story of Sonic games. Eggman took over the world in the cartoons and Sonic is just one of many freedom Fighters trying to take the world back. heck even Sonic X had war with aliens. the fact that you question Sonic's involvement with war and struggle just shows you are not really a Sonic fan. Sonic Forces is a bad game but not for being about war. it was a number of factures sure mostly gameplay, script writing and lack of anyone not Sonic and Classic Sonic. I don't understand why so many people question Sonic being serious. I mean I have been a Sonic Fan all my life so I know quite a lot but I know I'm not the only one that knows Sonic's lore.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Both games aren't very good, and only count as video games by way of technicality.

[@damongambuti]

4:57 yoo is that st quentins scar?

[@imnotkaiser]

Apparently y’all forgot shadow the hedgehog the game exists

[@CassiusStelar]

*Sigh...* THE 👏 TIME 👏 VORTEX 👏 IS 👏 ANOTHER 👏 DIMENSION. Not defending the rest of the story, Sega did a very big dumdum, but people don't seem to realize this when they say "BuT iSnT cLaSsIc FrOm ThE pAsT?!"

[@CassiusStelar]

Time vortex? White Space? Hall of Time? Null Space? (No isnt that the black hole with all the cubes?)

[@syweb2]

The "another dimension" issue is one of peoples' _criticisms_ for this game. It's a retcon that many people, myself included, feel is unnecessary and makes things worse. As I understand it, it's a _very poor_ way of saying that Generations split the timeline, so that Modern Sonic had his Classic Past, but everything after Generations (Mania and onward) is its own timeline caused by the Time Eater get jiggy with spacetime. Also, what's the Hall of Time? I don't recall seeing that in a Sonic game.

[@CassiusStelar]

@@syweb2 its a name i heard people calling white space, person from a year ago. its a hallway with different places throughout time and space

[@kennyulysse2163]

Let the 2nd movie take more risks pls

[@Emerardo]

I was down with this review until you described the level music as "fine". Shame bro!

[@idol8th111]

lol Infinite's theme sounds like a Friday night funkin song

[@luisnogueirapt5295]

I love sonic forces is fun and have a good gameplay😁 the only problem is the levels are a bit short and the lack of 2 boss battles very important like Chaos and Shadow but even with these problems the game is fun, nice graphics and have a good gameplay

[@imnotkaiser]

It’s possible to beat the game in 56 minutes

[@bluegigames]

PogU

[@zyraon6001]

A fangame was released called sonoc forces overclocked with an objectivly better story without the mature themes and made levels more challenging and had an infinitly better atory its how sega handeled the story that was the problem

[@syweb2]

I wouldn't say that it's "without mature themes," but it is definitely better-written, even if some of the demos had very cheesy creepypasta-esque UI elements.

[@imnotkaiser]

Here’s a theory, sonic forces took place in another dimension, like an alter ego version of the regular sonic world

[@imnotkaiser]

Colors had shit boss battle music

[@ChibiSteak]

14:27

[@deiongreenaway9751]

Yes is bad game

[@suhaybwars]

Just subbed so u can have 64

[@imnotkaiser]

Colors final boss was shit

[@joeker5208]

That Shadow theme is from his own game not from SA2

[@AdiX645]

and waysed of my yime 50 min vid bruh

[@Dewxy]

stfu its not waysed its waste

[@AdiX645]

@@Dewxy spell it wrong

[@Sukaiba69]

This review nails it, EXCEPT on the bit of "cartoon hedgy" and plot Freedom Planet, Cave Story, Hollow Knight, Kingdom Hearts, Dust: An Elysian Tale, etc The pressence of anthros/cartoons is NOT an excuse to restrict them into being kiddy shit Just because something is animated doesn't mean its for stupid ass kids

[@SexFan]

Agreed, I hate that anything related to Sonic that has a semi-serious story that has actual stakes is called "Edgy" by Sonic "fans" and people who don't even play the games

[@barblydrama6822]

You briefly raised the point about Sonic not fitting in a war setting: this isn't necessarily true. I mean the Archie Comics run is essentially 24 years of the Knothole Freedom Fighters warring with the Eggman Empire, with a few secondary villains often taking the spotlight instead of, or alongside, Eggman. However, Archie Comics managed to find a balance of Sonic-style banter and flair in a fairly whimsical environment with a few darker issues such as Issue #175. But your main point still stands, Forces doesn't balance its dark theme with its joyful (if mostly bland imo) soundtrack and dialogue. I guess I'm just a crazed Archie fan but those comics get a bit too much hate sometimes.