"Southwest 1478 Cancel Takeoff Clearance!" San Diego ATC Error

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[@richsarchet9762]

My dad was a Continental 727 Captain and did a high-speed RTO in response to a runway incursion at Stapleton in the late 1970s. No autobrakes on the 727...he closed the throttles and pulled the reversers while the FO deployed the spoilers. That particular 727 included nosewheel brakes which did not have antiskid, and only operated when braking pressure exceeded 80% of maximum. He flat spotted the nosewheel tires. He kept in full reverse until the engines started compressor stalling from ingesting their own exhaust. As they were slowing, they heard the service carts break loose in the first-class galley and hit the forward wall (breaking some of the china). About the time the motion stopped, and they had not hit the Frontier Convair (by 100 feet or so) he remembered that he had greeted Bob Six, the company President, when Mr. Six boarded the plane. Soon Mr. Six knocked on the cockpit door and was admitted. He asked, "Was that strictly necessary?" All three pilots replied "Yes, Sir!" in unison, and nothing more came of the event (except waiting in isolation for an hour or so to be sure the fuse plugs didn't melt while the brakes cooled). The Convair 580 was being taxied by Maintenance - and had not been cleared to cross.

[@gordonrichardson2972]

Great story!

[@Pooneil1984]

@@gordonrichardson2972 Today I would hope that an executive would ask what happened instead of a question that implied an overreaction.

[@seansoccer100]

Back when planes had china!

[@irn2flying]

Wow, what a close call. Great job by your Dad and crew.

[@seagullsbtn]

Again raises the issue that perhaps only Tower should control any crossing of an active runway. We’re one crossing from a massive death toll.

[@TimHayward]

That or a physical token passed between tower and ground controllers.

[@sncy5303]

I 100% agree

[@dutchpilotguy]

This is actually an ICAO recommended best practice, but is often rejected in practice due to the cumbersome nature of communication transfers.

[@sncy5303]

​@@ajmatovich50just stop spewing out those h ate ful and demonstrably false statement. DEI has nothing to do with this. The reason is that the D. Dumb gov let experienced controllers retire durin vid just to save a couole dollars.

[@zorbakaput8537]

Railways have done that for single line running for over a century.

[@TimCoahran]

The double standard you mentioned - a pilot's mistake getting disciplined differently than a controller's mistake - also exists heavily in my Rail Transport Industry.

[@consortiumxf]

Friend of mine was a Dispatcher at UP for a few years. The story about the dispatcher who made an error by not catching the incorrect read-back from a train which sent 2 trains on a collision course, killing 4 people....horrific.

[@tex-hogger4974]

Totally agree. We are held at such a higher standard than any other group, especially any of the supervisors.

[@joemeyer6876]

I agree it’s a double standard. . . AND Ground should not be the controller authorizing to cross an active runway, that’s a Tower Function. . . The laxness is system wide, greetings from Austin Bergstrom.

[@jimosborne2]

100% incorrect. Did it cross your mind for even 1 second why Juan wouldn’t say that if it was true?

[@rossspear-martin1577]

​@@jimosborne2he literally said it's a double standard at 10:53

[@dancleary578]

Ground control is supposed to get verbal clearance from the local controller before directing a/c across the runway. I think there is a missing voice, however, actually clearing the SW a/c for takeoff? We hear an acknowledgement, but not the actual clearance? And, Juan's correct of course. We have at the least a runway incursion, plain and simple. Great job Juan.

[@jimosborne2]

The double standard concerns, the administrative discipline of the pilots versus ATC. It has nothing to do with who is responsible for crossing an aircraft across an active runway, which is your main argument and why I responded

[@kewkabe]

Ground control gets ownership of the runway from local controller for the crossing, then releases it after crossing. Local here probably forgot that ground owned the runway.

[@SCxTrojan1]

Controller here. There is zero accountability for controllers within the agency. This type of thing will continue to happen because controllers are never held accountable. Add on certifying subpar trainees for staffing and you have a recipe for disaster. It’s insane.

[@AuH2O]

DEI hires?

[@drizztcat1]

That FAA statement is a perfect microcosm view of the current situation with ATC. Without repercussions, there's no reason to do better. Hopefully it doesn't take a loss of life for FAA to get their stuff together.

[@TheByard]

Coffin regs as used by Highway Authorities in the UK. We had Black Spot signs on junctions with high death records, seams signs were cheaper than road improvements.

[@Performanceproductionservices]

Thank you Juan for your final comments about "if we pilots had entered an active runway we would be in a heap of trouble". The instances of ATC creating dangerous circumstances is increasing. WE never hear about the facts of THOSE investigations. I think that is why they keep happening. NO CONSEQUENSES, that we know of. Were they fired? WHO KNOWS?

[@dont6441]

Kudos to the pilots of both aircraft for averting a possible disaster.

[@major__kong]

You know what the solution is? Just like we now require specific clearances to cross a runway, the only one giving those clearances needs to be tower not ground. They own the runway not ground.

[@Av8-ORD]

Absolutely. There is one controller responsible for that piece of pavement. That belongs to tower and tower only!

[@simplenamesallgone]

From my understanding that’s basically how it works, tower gives ground permission to cross. It sounds like tower forgot they approved it.

[@jaysmith1408]

@@simplenamesallgoneless than ten seconds after giving that permission?

[@RK-kn1ud]

Maybe I'm missing something, but having a split-brain scenario where two controllers are directly controlling a single runway interface sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[@errhka]

San Diego is one of the craziest single runway airports in the world - honestly it's likely out of necessity

[@HoldTheLine1990]

Violent abort sure beats a violent sudden stop with another aircraft. It’s only gonna get worse as airports stay same size yet more and more aircraft fight for space.

[@kevinmorris4517]

FAA says; we have investigated ourselves and found no issues here.

[@marlonfdutra]

That phraseology "Cancel Takeoff Clearance" is maddening to me. Seconds matter if you are on a collision course. Tower should say "STOP or REJECT" instead.

[@sncy5303]

Well... STOP isn't really used in aviation. The idea is great, but I think "reject takeoff" may be a better term.

[@charlestoast4051]

And the controller didn't even say "cancel takeoff clearance" very forcefully either.

[@norbert.kiszka]

Or a radio stop signal, like in a railways.

[@marlonfdutra]

@@sncy5303 Yes, anything that's VERY clear and prompts an immediate brain reaction.

[@ahgflyguy]

I’d be in favor of a played sound that broadcasts on all active frequencies which means “reject all takeoffs, all short-final aircraft initiate a go-around, everybody else hold still or clear all runways as appropriate”. I only fly hang gliders so my opinion doesn’t count for much, but it seems like that’s the appropriate level of response to a collision-prone situation.

[@d.t.4523]

Thank you Juan, keep working.

[@richardpedersen9189]

You tell'em, Juan!! Good job!!!

[@blancolirio]

Caught a little 'helmet fire' at the end...

[@SpaceGeek321]

@@blancolirio I had the same pissed off reaction when I read a news article about this - "NEVER ENTERED??? 785 said he crossed the hold short line!!!!!" Also thank you for clarifying that 785 was on Ground - I was wondering why 1478 didn't have the situational awareness - isn't it typical SOP to have acft on Tower when taxiing but crossing runways? I think one remediation should be to switch acft from Ground to Tower at B6 and then keep them on Tower for the runway crossing all the way down the conga line to takeoff.

[@Yama450YZF]

I hope they finally listen to your warnings @blancolirio

[@markmartin9346]

Before I crossed a runway, I always looked down at the departure end to make sure nobody was coming. I was cleared for takeoff on 17R at DFW. Before entering, I looked out at final and on short final was aircraft who was supposed to be on 17C. So, Always look before crossing and entering any runway, no matter what ATC says.

[@thatguy7085]

Because in the end… it is your life. Controller are advisors. Always look, listen, answer ask if something looks wrong

[@TheByard]

I do the same at road traffic lights when I get the green light, there are rumours that some drivers jump Red Lights.

[@drkskyes]

Even the language "Cancel Takeoff Clearance" is designed to make ATC look faultless. That way after a catastrophe they can say, "Well, we cancelled his clearance and he continued regardless."

[@PeterS-r4o]

Nice paranoia you have there . . .

[@jello3456543]

ATC might cancel a clearance for any number of reasons, but the pilot will always hear "cancel takeoff clearance". If you introduce a bunch of other phrases that mean the same thing, it takes longer for the pilot to process and act on. Minimizing the time from when the controller decides to cancel the clearance to when the pilot acts on it is critical in exactly this sort of situation, and clear, uniform phraseology in communications is how you do that.

[@UserName-jm8yw]

Yes; an very astute observation!

[@donwhitton7791]

My phraseology that I used, in my 30yrs of ATC, was "ACID Abort! Abort! Abort!" No confusion the 3 times in 30 yrs I had to use it.

[@TheByard]

@@jello3456543 Abort, abort, abort. Three short words.

[@peterredfern1174]

No fatalities,both crews to be congratulated on their re actions,safe flights mate,🙏🙏👏👏👍🇦🇺

[@jturner9066]

We are just lucky here. Your right! Total double standard. ATC is not having a great year and these near misses are an indication of what is going to happen. Thank goodness we have great pilots that are keeping these to just near misses. I would like to see the corrective actions if any!!!

[@robm3074]

I hate to be a pessimist but all I can think of is... Tick.. tick.. tick..tick.

[@EffSharp]

It’s only a matter of time.

[@gcorriveau6864]

Just as pilots have an URGENT phrase X 3 to indicate an emergency - perhaps ATC should have some Trigger Words that create more urgent attention than merely saying 'cancel takeoff clearance." Maybe STOP! STOP! STOP!?" ...

[@irn2flying]

Not a bad idea... Like the military having the 3 "Eject, Eject, Eject" call, perhaps this could be trained into ATC/& pilots, for an Abort. I.E. anytime ATC issues an abort (like a mayday), it's enunciated THREE times. Southwest 1478, REJECT REJECT REJECT".

[@consortiumxf]

That FAA statement is pathetic. "The second Southwest aircraft never entered the runway." Uhh...the pilot CLEARLY said he was "past the hold short line" - so isn't that technically ON THE RUNWAY?!

[@richardweiner6405]

YES!! And as Juan mentioned, that was a big double standard because if any of us had been responsible for crossing that hold short line, it would’ve been a Brasher every time

[@TrulyAmazingFeats]

The way I read the statement, because it appears deliberately short, is that it was intended to be widely published for the general flying public. Jane/Joe Passenger won't know (or care) about the distinction between the hold short line and the long straight strip of tarmac that they know as the runway. And the public certainly won't care about crossing the hold short line. They just want to be reassured that everyone was safe.

[@leeroyholloway4277]

Then the next day they'll bust someone for an incursion in the same scenario.

[@NatesRandomVideo]

That’s ass covering.

[@donwhitton7791]

They never entered the runway, they entered the protected area for the runway. Protected areas differ depending on physical limitations or ILS localizer/GP signal protection.

[@fyrman9092]

That was a runway incursion caused by controllers. I work at an airport and have frequent training on the movement surfaces. Typically, an incursion results in retraining.

[@zonaken]

Years ago, we used to go up on the top deck of that parking structure just to plane watch... Crazy layout of that airport alright. Zk

[@kurtkensson2059]

Mr. A's had a nice view, too.

[@rreiter]

Do you know if it's still possible to watch from the top or have they closed it to pedestrians/public parking?

[@zonaken]

@@rreiter I doubt they let anyone up there anymore but I am really not sure. We did our observing back before electricity... I was really something way back then! Zk

[@rreiter]

@@zonaken If they were smart they'd set up bleachers and charge for admission.

[@TheByard]

Which came first the airport or the garage, I'm thinking the later and I wonder who gave the planning permission.

[@gerrycarmichael1391]

I worked in ATC early in my career at the Boston tower and Tracon. I can assure you that at a minimum the ground controller lost his quals and was suspended pending the investigation (likely both the ground controller and the local controller did). As for runway crossings, the coordination for each crossing is supposed to be done on a hot intercom (ie recorded line). If it wasn't then there was a blatant disregard for SOP.

[@ianmooney213]

Thank god nobody was blocking the radio. I’m astounded that in 2024 we are still reliant upon 1940s style one-way at a time radio systems. It should be mandatory for Class C airports for aircraft to have a radio system that’s capable of simultaneous transmit / receive. Any such regulation would take 10+ years to implement - why not move forward now.

[@ronbennett7885]

Was thinking that too and I'm just a layperson. Radio has its place, but with redundancy. There is for most everything else in aviation. Important communications by ATC should also be sent electronically. There's got to be a better way. Admittedly the current system works amazingly well, but the near misses are adding up, especially with staffing issues combined with increased air traffic.

[@tissuepaper9962]

I'm convinced that anybody who suggests duplex or digital radio in aviation is not a pilot.

[@ZeroG_Bandit]

@ianmooney213 you have no idea what you're talking about. ATC cannot be stepped on, they override any simultaneous transmission, for exactly this reason.

[@ianmooney213]

@@ZeroG_Bandit ATC have more powerful transmitters than aircraft which often means their signal will over-power providing the 2 transmitters are similarly distant from the receiver. But still there will be distortion. And at distance from an ATC transmitter, a much closer aircraft transmitting will win out. All I’m suggesting is a way ATC can simultaneously transmit with assurance it’s received unimpaired - at major airports. It would be a case of a 2nd transmitting frequency only used by ATC side, simulcast on the primary freq. - and given priority (like higher volume) on the receiver side.

[@sansbury95]

This sounds good in principle but in practice to accomplish that you'll only need to replace the radios on (IIRC) around 30,000 air carrier aircraft, and then there's an additional ~220,000 general aviation aircraft in the US to think about, plus all of the comms systems in ATC. It would take the FAA 10 years to write the first NPRM, 10 more years to finalize it, and industry 20 years to implement it. Airline pilots will be replaced before the radio system is.

[@roncarney9158]

Would like to see the minutes of the meeting authorizing the construction of a five story carpark 700ft from the end of a major runway!

[@owenmerrick2377]

Follow the money.

[@nitehawk86]

Bet they didn't even tell the airport authorities before starting construction.

[@rwilliams3983]

Yet the FAA recently ordered some very old palm trees to be cut down located on the runway 9 approach even though they were a mile from the runway.

[@jimpalmer1969]

I have done a lot of RTO in my years of doing customer demonstration flights during Boeing deliveries. I'm not sure I would call them violent, but they will sure shock you on how fast a 747 can stop. If you are not ready for it stuff will be flying all over the cabin. That is why tray tables are up and baggage is stowed under the seat in front of you.

[@jarheadcharlie2315]

Okay people; this is San Diego, not ORD... it can't be that hard to control 1 runway.

[@j_taylor]

Busiest single runway airport in the world.

[@randallmarsh1187]

@@j_taylor Nope, not even close! The busiest is in Mumbai followed by 2 in London and 2 in Asia.

[@jillcrowe2626]

The ground crossing between Mexico and San Diego, California, United States, is the busiest in the world. This impacts the airport such that it's a very busy airport and difficult to land because you have to negotiate a tall building then plop yourself down onto the runway.

[@tomdaley9154]

What? Tell me you don't know shit about flying, without directly telling me you don't know shit about flying 😂😂😂

[@HongyaMa]

For them it was

[@deani2431]

A serious double standard for sure. I crossed the line once in my single engine by a foot or two. I got ripped a new one by ATC.

[@rd4660]

SAN is an insane asylum of an airport. One runway, ILS only from the west. When weather is at minimums they take off to the west and land from the west. That's a real sh*t show. It would help to have a taxiway on the north west end of the airport during minumums, but that property belongs to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot. We had a voter referendum a decade ago to move the airport to the former Miramar Naval Air Station but voters shot it down and then the Marine Corps moved into Miramar. So we're stuck with a very convenient but dangerous airport.

[@JanaAdams-z1k]

I used to live in San Diego. EVERYONE who lives in San Diego knows the parking garage controversy.

[@ajg617]

So weird. I flew in to San Diego pretty often in the mid-90s. Was that garage there at that time? All I remember is descending past the hotels.

[@bobbysenterprises3220]

High speed reject. Sounds like some coworkers of mine. I work in a auto bodyshop.

[@rcm944]

Someone just caught a giant spaceship with a pair of tongs, but we can't figure out how to get across a runway without potential killing hundreds.....one hell of a system we got there!

[@CharlesLambert137]

SpaceX is a lean organization with a clear mission and empowered employees whereas the FAA is a government bureaucracy. 'Nuff said?

[@nitehawk86]

@@PFunk-kt9gc Because white people never make mistakes? Shut up you bigot.

[@onlyme112]

That's because the government manages the runway.

[@christopherpardell4418]

@@PFunk-kt9gc Yes, I know. But it’s a doofus right wing racist propaganda argument. SpaceX is proof that DEI hiring works just fine.

[@tissuepaper9962]

brother, elon did his stunt once, with no people aboard, and only *after* blowing up several other rockets. atc and pilots perform every single day. there are millions of commercial flights every single year. literally just *watching* elon's rocket from the viewing area is more likely to kill you than a commercial flight.

[@classicalextremism]

"Its a double standard!" Its in keeping with their mission. FAA does not exist to make flying safe. It exists to make people feel safe flying. Subtly different, drastic consequences.

[@vernonslone8627]

Do you have any idea how many aircraft are in the air at anytime....You mister are full of shit...

[@rdspam]

Isn’t the original cancel at 3:48? Were they already rejecting, focusing on Aviating rather than Communicating, and the second message at 4:03 is when they had time to communicate/confirm? Being able to leave the runway that early makes it seem unlikely they were really rolling for that long, only reacting to the second call.

[@patrickjoyce2276]

As a former level 5 Tracon controller, I pushed for condensed control instructions to eliminate the call sign on the first part of an emergency transmission and change it to "Abort, abort, Southwest 1478". You eliminate the long phrase "Cancel takeoff clearance" and it gets everyone's attention on the frequency fast. There are still no tower cab recorders after all these years to see how this communication/coordination "event" started.

[@ph-scprv9113]

In Europe we are used to all runway operations to be handled by the tower controller, including runway crossings. It involves more switching for the pilots and has its own set of traps but might be a better solution in the long end. Simon Retired tower and approach controller -EHBK-

[@stevenmacdonald9619]

I thought the alternative existed for ATC towers that cannot see all parts of the taxiways/runways with the naked eye?

[@slicershanks1919]

I agree it’s time to change it up so tower handles all crossings. Its just too dangerous otherwise, I’ve had multiple close calls at my home airport, two different freqs for two runways (training traffic on one, bizjets on the other)

[@davidkavanagh189]

That's not true. Might be the case at some airports but it's not a European standard.

[@ph-scprv9113]

@@davidkavanagh189 Never said it was a standard just that we are more used to that way of working. I remember the infamous Delta accident at Amsterdam/Schiphol were a 767 was cleared for take off under control by the tower and ground cleared a 747 to cross the same runway. Weather was poor and Delta managed to stop just in time. That quickly changed the way runway crossings were carried out.

[@phillip1115]

I thought that the controller was quite blase about the cancel order and was almost missed by the pilot.

[@dandaniel439]

Yes, I agree. No urgency in her words or voice.

[@T.A.W]

Railroad traffic control guy here. Two of us never control the same piece of iron. Why are two controllers handling the same piece of pavement?

[@nate7803]

That parking garage looks like a great place to plane spot.

[@thomasteske9127]

I've done it before and it is.

[@nancychace8619]

Thank you for sharing. Could have been much worse. This never used to be a problem, way back when. Maybe something needs to be undone. Glad no injuries.

[@sncy5303]

In most cases, taking ones time and thinking about a decision in aviation is key to safety. Yet, it seems that, especially recently, many controllers seem to prioritize operational efficiency over safety. If we don't get back to prioritizing safety, something bad will happen sooner or later.

[@retiredatc8720]

The safest operation is one aircraft in the sky.

[@wjcandee]

The controller's response is pathetic, regardless of whether it's a technically correct instruction. The effective instruction is "Stop! Reject takeoff!" You cancel the take off clearance if they haven't started rolling. If they are rolling, you got to tell them to stop. The reason you don't is you're embarrassed and you're covering your ass. And I don't care what the actual book says, you tell these people to stop if you want them to stop. People could have gotten hurt because of the stupid nonchalant way she instructed them to cancel take off clearance. They're rolling already for God's sake.

[@dandaniel439]

Yes, I agree. No urgency in her words or voice. Danger here.

[@irn2flying]

As noted "stop" is not really ATC phraseology. BUT, your point is well taken. "cancel take off clearance" is weak when barreling down the runway. "Southwest 1478 Reject take off, Reject, Reject" does seem more appropriate for phase of "flight".

[@Malamba4231]

Question from non-pilot: At the bottom of that chart, it reads, “Be alert to runway crossing clearances.” But how does an aircraft taking off do that if those clearances are given on a different frequency? Should aircraft be monitoring both ground and tower frequencies? Thanks for clarification.

[@pauljones6321]

It would require nonstandard radio operating procedures for most airlines, but as a captain, you are in charge of the airplane, and can easily make that decision and make that happen.

[@helicopterdriver]

I've never monitored both frequencies. They tell you which frequency to use and you comply. What goes on in the background is a mystery. We rely on the fact that they are planning the sequences and talking to each other. :D

[@user-xp9hu8sg9o]

He just explained that. It is difficult to monitor both at the same time. As a pilot myself I can vouch for that totally uncomfortable

[@Wargasm54]

I asked a similar question. You would think that if two frequencies control an area that two airplanes could occupy at the same time, the pilot would be on the tower frequency and the copilot would be tuned into both tower and ground? But like you, I’m not a pilot. The system in place just doesn’t seem very smart or safe. I figured it could possibly be because of the construction taking place? Regardless, you would think it would be the tower issuing commands on one frequency.

[@MudBuddy55]

Answer from another non-pilot: maybe the pilots should try looking out their windows.😊😊😊

[@jamesthayer5940]

Curious, regardless of the controller(s) obvious mistake, what about the 2 pilots crossing the runway: "Clear left - Clear right." A BASIC procedural cross check to make sure YOU do not get hit crossing "ANY" runway. No different than driving a car and making sure the intersection is clear especially after your traffic signal just turns green. It is a basic survival instinct/ discipline you either have or don't have. Looking at taxi charts, load close out is NO excuse to not suspend everything when crossing ANY RUNWAY. Sounds a lot like DCA earlier this year, 4/18/24, between JetBlue 1554 and SWA 2937. Again, a controller mistake but no "clear left - clear right" by the pilots crossing an active runway. As pilots we make mistakes every day just like the ATC controllers. Regardless of the Gnd and Twy on different frequencies we as pilots need to verify the runway is clear prior to making any runway crossing. I would expect the crossing aircraft stopped on their own when the FO saw a departing 1) B737 aircraft approaching with 2) landing lights 3) taxi lights 4) corner lights 5) wing lights 6) strobes and 7) red beacon lights ON... Does this runway have red runway crossing stop bar lights installed???

[@RoseSharon7777]

Honestly, I cant believe that radio communication hasnt changed much in 75 years. Given all the technology in the 21st century. 😮

[@tedspradley]

9:55 😂😂😂 Juan giving the old side eye to the “The second SW aircraft never entered the runway” 😂😂😂

[@pauldonner9707]

As usual, little to no repercussions for feds. Also a likely contributing factor is feds proclivity to KEEP SWA MOVING regardless of consequences to other aircraft. Had a low altitude GA at SAN about 2 years ago for what was obviously that very reason. ATC trying to squeeze another SWA into a space that didn’t exist.

[@grumpy3543]

When I was based in San Diego in the early 90’s we used find out the British Airways schedule and go on top of that parking garage and wait for that 747 to cross over that corner. Talk about a thrill, he couldn’t have been more than 50’ over that garage. 8:03

[@kathleenmartin8036]

Thank goodness, there are smart experienced pilots that can adjust to last minute changes and dangers in flying.

[@gregoryknox4444]

One of my favorite layovers .... and yep, I remember that parking garage. I walked there once to get on top for photos and it was sealed ticht. I asked the gate operator, and he said they didn't want any non-tenant in there period.

[@3henry214]

And I bet the reason for that is the tenants in their service agreement, a declaimer of "use at own risk" or something else that releases the garage for liability, that would need to acknowledged in order to sigh the contract. Non-tenants would not have any non liability agreement with the garage, so they would need to be kept out.

[@Storriesmith]

Controllers can and very likely will fill out ASAP reports just like pilots. SAN is a cluster with that single runway without the main taxiway being under construction! Crossing the runway to taxi isn't the normal procedure, even if it has been for a while now.

[@VHMMP]

At YSSY there are Stop Bar lights at all runway/taxiway intersections and only the Tower Controller (ADC) can "drop" the stop bars to permit a runway crossing. The ground controller (SMC) is still the one who is talking to the aircraft, he has to receive a clearance from the ADC for the crossing, and then the ADC will "drop" the stop bars. Maybe a major international standard airport like San Diego should be installing Stop Bar lights.

[@tedspradley]

4:27 No wonder there was a lag for 1478 to acknowledge the “SW 1478 cancel takeoff clearance” said mildly into the microphone with all of the importance as if saying “SW 1478, what kind of shampoo do you use?” Jesus. That’s an emergency. Act like it and voice it.

[@jerrysanders9101]

Holy smokes- Lindbergh Field is my home airport as a frequent passenger flyer and that’s a scary situation. And you’re right, it never gets old flying into SAN or even standing on the ground near the parking garage and watching planes land. Thanks Juan.

[@thecityslicker33]

This is crazy! As a student pilot flying out of a class c airport I will seriously consider monitoring ground and tower simultaneously going forward

[@kbg990]

Does this airport really need a dedicated ground frequency? Not sure how busy of an airport San Diego is but I have a gut feeling that TWR should be able to handle ground as well.

[@phugoid]

Wouldn't it be a better idea if the PIC monitored the tower frequency and the PM the ground frequency for overall situational awareness? Or is that not even possible?

[@hawaiianetops9566]

Then you have the issue of only one pilot validating the takeoff or crossing clearance and a new set of problems arise. It takes the burden off ATC, sure, but now the pilots are unable to use good CRM in validating whether or not they were cleared to land/takeoff/cross.

[@phugoid]

@@hawaiianetops9566 Ta

[@rarefind3d]

As soon as you looked at the camera, I said "here we goooo"!

[@CommentsAllowed]

Unless they aviated, navigated, and then communicated. Possible they reacted faster than you think?

[@foreststewart1968]

I had the same thought, but in fairness, Juan did also go on to clarify that the FAA will be looking at the flight data recorder to sort out the actual timing of initiating the rejected take off, so the issue of possible delay (if any) should get sorted out... presumably.

[@brentdykgraaf184]

Non pilot here...just curious..how is this possible? How did it work this good this long? Ground control knows nothing,.. no communication with tower co ordination? Really!

[@brandonadams7837]

They are right next to each other in the same tower.

[@moregrouchy]

Normally the planes taking off don't cross the runway, but due to airport expansion project, the conga line is unable to follow the normal pattern.

[@40cleco]

Took a long time to cool those brakes, fans going full blast.

[@merrywissemes]

No brake fans on our aircraft.

[@merrywissemes]

Unless you mean some sort of external fans…..

[@nitehawk86]

@@merrywissemes Oh I am a huge fan of brakes.

[@n.gineer8102]

I would have thought a slow roll would be better than sitting still, esp if brakes are still on.

[@Machinegun21]

Juan, Thank you so much for calling out the FAA on that dual standard between pilots and controllers. Like you said, if it had been a pilot that had by his own fault crossed the hold short line it would be an automatic PPD + phone calls, etc but because it was essentially the FAA's fault....well suddenly it really wasn't that big of a deal, no harm no foul, there was never any danger, etc. The rules apply to everyone...or they apply to no one...Thanks for all you do!

[@303Fro]

Ground control crossing active runways is always problematic. I’m a retired controller and have seen many incursions onto runways. The one runway operation at SAN gets really crazy when IMC, they often land 9 and depart 27. I flew in there a couple weeks ago at midnight and we did a rwy 9 MA at mins. There was 14 waiting to depart. A ground controller needs to have the local control’s traffic picture and not ask to cross when it’s obvious it won’t work. Nothing is more important than insuring runway separation, everything else can wait. The guilty controller(s) will probably get decertified and will have to get qualified again. It’s not as bad as it sounds but it’s definitely not something you take lightly.

[@gano7297]

This type of double standard is exactly the type of garbage that Juan’s arch-nemesis DG is quite vocal against!

[@tylersimplot13]

I always like that sky view of SD airport, get to see my bootcamp. Was always nice to look over and see the planes flying away lol

[@pigdroppings]

FAA allowing a multistory parking garage in line with the airport runway in San Diego. FAA allowing a potato factory, with huge smoke stacks, in line with the runway in Idaho. It appears that there is a problem trend with the FAA allowing high structures in direct line with airport runways

[@johnbriggs3916]

The FAA can't prevent anything being built -- they can only close down an airport where there is an obstruction.

[@rbrosz]

@@johnbriggs3916 The FAA can't close airports either. They can take away or redesign the instrument approaches and stop giving them money for airport improvements. That's about it.

[@jaysmith1408]

Couple questions 1) these people are standing ten feet from each other, at least in our dispatch centre, PD desk yells over to Fire with an urgent update. They’re right there. “Hey Sue, one to cross” “i got one in position Bob, he’ll wait”. Can’t be that hard, it’s not Pearson. 2) when Southwest was cleared to cross, i didn’t hear the customary “traffic holding in position”. 3) in the time when the conflict was discovered, wouldn’t expediting the cross clear up sooner than the reject and still having the one over the line? Even if also rejecting, clearing the conflict instead of holding in striking distance can’t be a good idea. Yes it’s probably somewhere in the FAR’s that clearances can only be cancelled, not allowing expediting.

[@otm646]

8:15 That parking garage and gas station are some of the best plane spotting.

[@localtrailtrampjacklumber1889]

Back in the 80s we used to sit on top of it at that parking structure and watch them land it was awesome

[@urgetodrive]

That goddam parking garage... why doesn't the city just write them a check and knock it down so we can finally get some bigger jets to land here (and more Int'l destinations)?

[@ronbennett7885]

Wondering that too. Waiting until after a tragedy isn't the time. The airport is far more important than car parking.

[@AzCoastie1]

Was the parking garage there before the airport or the runway length needed for larger aircraft? If so, maybe the city tried to write them a check but it didn’t have enough zeros.

[@thomasyarnall999]

@@AzCoastie1 approved for construction by the FAA in 1984

[@thomasyarnall999]

Big jets can land there.

[@tedsaylor6016]

AFAIK, If ANY part of an aircraft is over the "hold bars" you are "on the runway". Is the FAA now saying that's not right???

[@327Erich]

The first thing that crossed my mind when Juan read "The second Southwest aircraft never entered the runway" from the FAA statement was the fact that the pilots *undoubtedly* would get dinged for a runway incursion had the clearance not been given, even if they were just past the hold short line. The downplaying of this incident right off the bat sure seems like a face-saving attempt to provide cover for ATC. I'm glad he immediately pointed out the hypocrisy.

[@mattguey-lee4845]

It seems as if the newest batch of controllers don’t have the same situational awareness as the last batch. I think maybe newer controllers should be assigned to easier airports before getting promoted to harder airports. In my hometown Dulles is a bit bit easier than National.

[@user-ry4xt3sd3i]

KSAN has a new commissioned Taxiway that stays on the South side of the Runway. Aircraft were being staged on the North side for departure due to the fog making this a land 9 depart 27 operation. Verbal coordination is required before ground does ANY crossings.

[@savearhino369]

wow. this is a travesty! the left hand knows not what the right hand is doing. does not instill faith in fliers that their safety is tantamount . glad i have no where to fly. so grateful to you, Juan, for covering these blunders.

[@KO-pk7df]

At many airports the ATCT freq. handles all traffic that crosses or enters the runway. Having two separate controller freqs. on one runway looks like an accident waiting to happen.

[@buzzbierbaum4026]

This Congestion is a daily problem with false starts, and landings I live and grew up on Columbia&Nutmeg 60year+ and know many a pilot can only be an act of God that nothing worse has happened here other than PSA

[@tbm3fan913]

Interesting your comment about that parking garage. Last time I flew home into San Diego was in the early 70's and it is a steeper descent than SFO where I have landed a lot. However, that parking garage was not there as I checked my pictures of Lindberg landings in 1972. I have a shot of a Western 737 coming in and my shot looks in that direction towards Laurel St. and beyond. No garage there so how did this garage manage to get built?

[@dominicdahlheimer6861]

Juan I suspect that you absolutely nailed the "double" standard within the FAA! I hope the FAA checks into the physical location of the ground controller and the local controller in the tower cab. THEY HAVE EFFECTIVELY COMMUNICATE! With the construction having gone on for a considerable amount of time I also wonder how many other issues there have been! TALK TO EACH OTHER LOCAL CONTROLLER AND GROUND CONTROLLER!!!!!

[@oldmech619]

Attn Pilots. If you do an RTO, Plz let the brakes cool. Do not set the parking brake if at all possible. Get maintenance ready with chocks. Plz

[@jnantes34]

100% agree on the double standard. Crossing the hold short line is a runway incursion. Same when exiting the runway. you are not clear of the runway until all of your aircraft is passed that line. The definition seems to change when the shoe was on the other foot. 😂

[@compleatangler]

Why are radio communications spoken so fast? I can see why information can by missed or not understood.

[@grumpy3543]

That’s a good point Juan. That area between the hold short lines and the white runway line is a grey area. I was cleared to land the 757 when a dump truck and personnel were between the hold short and the white line. I queried the tower about the truck and he said it’s fine because the truck wasn’t on the runway. How is a dump truck any different than an airplane? 10:16

[@aarondoty2210]

I was trained and I teach that even if you're cleared to cross a runway, you are to slow down or stop and look both directions before crossing. You just don't know as an A/C may be coming down that runway in any direction or some pilot just doing their thing without talking to anyone using that runway. And if I see an A/C lined up, I'll query ground to verify I am cleared to cross. Now, of course, some airports you will not see the departing end of a runway, but at least I checked to the best of my ability.

[@jerryhargis7730]

And the departing aircraft probably had all his landing blights and strobes on. Somebody only gave a cursory glance to the east before starting across.

[@Tom_Losh]

Even just crossing an intersection when the light turns green while driving, one checks both directions before the car starts moving ... at least *I* do.

[@OddJobFix]

So much happening you need a rest, Jaun.

[@christopherguy1217]

Great reporting. What they need is a simple way to indicate runway activity by each controller, ground and tower. A simple button could be used to signal the software when a controller authorized runway use. Press the button and give the clearance, if the runway is authorized by the other controller the button will sound an alert and intrusion can be avoided.

[@horrido666]

The RTO info is great. Stuff like that is why I watch.

[@vikinghog]

Hard not to criticize, but i sure would not want a job where one is required to multitask like they do and handle that volume of traffic. Thank goodness they were professional enough to catch the mistake and stop it in time.

[@keithbrown9198]

I was a tower controller with a single runway, and to me this seems to be the fault of the LC (local controller), because no GC (ground controller) would reasonably clear an aircraft to cross an active runway without coordination with the LC, it was just muscle memory.I suspect the LC forgot she gave the clearance to cross. But I guess we'll find out eventually. Everybody makes mistakes, that's why we have the separation standards we have, but on the surface at an airport, it's the most dangerous, and where the deadliest accidents have occured.

[@keithbrown9198]

And as to the disparity in discipline, I was a union rep, there's going to plenty of paperwork, and I'm not sure if it's nationwide, but there's ASAP that protects pilots and we had ATSAP that protects the controllers. I'm not excusing the mistake, but it happens. Why it happens though is important. Constant shift work and overtime due to staffing shortages, and still the FAA (and Congress with funding) fails to hire controllers. And when I was hired, 50% was the washout rate at the Academy and then about 25% at assigned facilities. Aviation is absolutely unforgiving of mistakes in the worst case. I always kept that in the back of my mind.

[@zaidkanaan3874]

Wow the time gap for the pilots to read back something as important as a rejected takeoff call is quite shocking

[@MrOlgrumpy]

They might have been acting on the reject before replying.

[@Avi727]

@@MrOlgrumpy With the almost casual 1st cnx takeoff clearance from tower, I wonder if that radio call even registered with the pilots flying. They responded only after the second call. But that being said (and to backup Grumpy’s statement above), the fundamental basic priorities for pilots are: 1-Aviate. 2-Navigate. 3-Communicate. You piss on the fire closest to your feet, which means stopping the aircraft is infinitely more important than acknowledging a radio call. Good job by both crews involved!

[@johnkraus4]

If you don't tell the truth about what happened, the problem never gets fixed.

[@zachansen8293]

That is the wrong ATC voice for telling a plane to avoid a collision. The voice needs to match the immediacy. 9:55 Also saying "the second aircraft never entered the runway" is disingenuous as hell if they were past the hold short line. The hold short line is where it is because it matters. Now they're saying it doesn't matter? Anyone who's ever gotten in trouble for that may want to go back and have a talk with the FAA. edit: oh, hahaha you immediately go into exactly that.

[@AlbertHess-xy7ky]

Scream, yell and create panic.

[@kilric705]

I was in San Diego a few days prior to this and I noted the departures and the arrivals occurred at short intervals.

[@Merv-Bob]

KZbin needs at least a 'Two Thumbs' up button.

[@williambarry8015]

Its good those things stop so well.

[@steventylka6585]

I've been in that tower. And unlike much larger airports like LAX, the ground and tower (approach & departure) controllers are up top in the tower. They also have active runway incursion alarms at each taxiway crossing, and is most likely what prompted the controller to call to reject the takeoff.

[@donwhitton7791]

All tower controllers (Air/Local and ground) are in the cab in all airports...unless its a digital remote tower, when they are in a room like a ARTCC.

[@kewkabe]

I'm a controller. Ground and tower (called local controller) are always in the tower. Approach and departure are different positions entirely.

[@steventylka6585]

@@kewkabe yes. My nomenclature is wrong. I remember being in SD and hearing the controller say "contact departure on xx.xx.". Wish I could upload photos to comments, I have a few good ones from the San Diego tower looking to the USS Midway (that I served on).

[@jonvenden4284]

Have you heard about the F-18 growler that went down here in Washington. It went down last night. They keep saying it went down on Rainier but the Navy is searching in William O Douglas wilderness also Yakima SAR is involved (Rainier is not in Yakima County and the park has paid SAR on staff). Seattle news is King5 and Fox13.

[@David-nx2vm]

I have flown into San Diego multiple times. It’s not as bad as the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong, but still sporty. They were talking about building e new airport in San Diego 20 years ago. What happened?