In Defense of: KRIS KNIGHT THEORY | Kris Knight Theory | Deltarune Theory and Discussion

[@spookydood5500]

To elaborate: this video wasn't trying to prove Kris Knight as undoubtedly canon. It's instead trying to show that while many think Kris being the Knight requires lots of mental hoops to be jumped through, there's an EQUAL amount of hoops for it NOT to be canon. I don't believe it's definitely canon, however I think it still isn't DEBUNKED. Also, I think it can be narratively satisfying. Thanks for watching!

[@thefrogthatknows5251]

Nah. It's papyrus.

[@KyrieFortune]

"€nd worst of all, the Knight could be any one of us! It could be you, it could be ME, it could even be K-" Ralsei gets shivved by a pencil

[@DailyDeltaNews]

very fair point, im excited to see which direction toby takes this because it works either way. also very excited to see patterns once the next chapters release. that'll (maybe) prove and disprove so many theories... great video! :)

[@EpicFailureFive]

I still think Ralsei not mentioning the dark fountain would be odd. There's not really a reason for him to not bring it up even if Kris is the Knight. There's also the easter egg in Temmie's game, Dweller's Empty Path, which suggests Ralsei can actually sense dark fountains.

[@ismetcancelik5052]

lancer saying it is gone and ralsei saying they are objects is simple. They have a history without the dark worlds. Somehow despite the fact that we lighnters can not see them do anything, their experience with us and each other stays. due their unalive nature without a dark world this may seem like this kind of thinking could go either way on accuracy. This line of thinking could very well be false or true. but luckily in subjectively recent spamton QnA spamton says noelle is not her mother she is the first one to.. first one to... and therefore he gave her a gift. from noelle's blog posts we learn noelle checks spam emails and one day she got an email the content of which she put into cat game and turns out it was pipis. All of this implies in real life from us lightners's perspective we just got some spam emails and they were different sometimes. one of them crashed our games and we tried to use it as a mod for our game and from the perspective of darkners who DID NOT have dark worlds at the time they were ''acting'' despite their lack alive status. Spamton considers these events as not him being unable to act and darkners naturally taking course like the physical rule of universe but rather thinks of it as a gift he gave to noelle, a concious deicison. Now this is a nice evidence but once again it can go either way because you see the problem right? how do they act if they are just some objects or simple pieces of code? if someone doesn't outright say it in games, no amount of similar events can prove it.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

There's 4 knights in a game of chess. Kris is only but one of these metaphorical knights, imo.

[@xspookii_]

This interpretation could also lead to the idea that there are two on each side of "the game," being some as yet unseen conflict that would somehow both benefit from opening dark fountains. One obvious side is to cause the roaring, but I wouldn't have many good guesses for any alternatives

[@KyrieFortune]

Maybe the reason many people are pointed by the hints as the knight is that... all of them are That makes a lot of sense actually

[@Stoopid420]

This is exactly my theory. There doesn't HAVE to be only ONE knight

[@dede-qf9si]

This is a great thought I will be hyper fixating on until chapters 3-5, thank you. Because if you start thinking this way, not only could chapters 3-5 could have multiple antagonists (potentially). (We've only seen King and Queen so far. In chess they are each a single piece (per side) but there are 2 Rooks, 2 Bishops, and 2 Knights (per side).) And if we think over your thought, being 4 knights, that'd also mean two sides. Would that mean there's a King and Queen of Light (White) same as Dark (Black)? Is there a greater battle going on here in the form of Chess like many others have theorized? Kris screams Pawn to me, as their role is being our pawn. So, if there are 16 Pawns, is Kris one of both? They'd have to be a knight, if they're The Knight, right? Who would the others be then? And which side would they even be on? (Light/White feels obvious, but how obvious is it?) Who would all the pawns be? For Light/White I'd assume Susie, Noelle, Berdly, Undyne, Toriel, Catti, and Jockington. (Undyne would be coming to investigate the slashed tires, Toriel HAS to play a major role in chapter 3, and Catti and Jockington both have dialogue sprites, being some of the only characters to have them that haven't had major roles in either game, so that has to mean something.) For Dark/Black, it's up in the air considering we've only seen two of potentially 7 dark worlds. (Though I think chapter 5 will be a finale of some kind, of a three part chapter series, that being 3-5 since they're all being released together. Something has to change between 5 and 6 or the rest of the game would come out all at once (or not be so specifically cut into two pieces). This leaves the number of dark worlds up in the air, I think.) If Kris is a knight, who would White pawn number 8 be? I'd say Ralsei, but he's literally a prince from the dark, and can't NOT have some deeper role to play. A prince doesn't scream pawn, especially since he's a darkner. You don't take control of black pieces after you capture them, do you? And if we believe the Light and Dark worlds are White and Black, well... But, then that brings up the question of what makes a pawn. Do we control them? Do we influence them like Noelle? Could all the people living in this world be pieces, most being pawns? Isn't that what recruiting could be? And we assume we're the player here, but are we OURSELVES a pawn? Couldn't the Angel be player White? Gaster seems to be the only logical contender for player Black. I can't think of anyone else. Who has control and power quite like he seems to? Nobody comes to mind. We have a lot of power and influence too but not as much as in Undertale, so who else would White be? Gaster was split across time and space, breaks through the barrier of his own existence to speak to us, and influence our surroundings. The Angel is then a seemingly world ending being that potentially trapped us in a loop of time. We're nothing compared to those contenders, right? They HAVE to be the players. They SCREAM it. The vessel is important, because Kris isn't the human in the prophecy, WE ARE. We have the power to keep going, to close their dark fountains, that's us. Kris is our vessel, but the one we created at the very beginning remains in our game files and has to come back. We ourselves are pawn 8, right? A warrior, a soldier, much like the others. That'd make more sense than us being a player. We're a pawn, stuck in an unending chess match between two entities with more power than ourselves. We have no control over the game, because we're not a player. That's what I think the game is looking to hit us in the face with, right? What better way to have a cut throat narrative about control. It's a game, we're just a piece. I believe Ralsei also holds one of the crystals that drove Jevil and Spamton insane. I think he's seen the end, knows it's a loop, and could be telling us the prophecy to give us hope. To give us a story. I think Kris is doing something similar. I think they may be trying to create a PLOT. They're the one giving us a game, giving us hope, giving us something to fight for in the face of powerlessness. OR, Kris is trying to stop all of this, somehow, by creating the dark fountains, offering their own body up for control, and/or playing the role of the "Human" in our place. Are we their antagonist, are they our ally? They've seen the end too (it's the only thing that makes sense to me) so what are they doing in the face of their own powerlessness? And if they are taking our place, is it to hide us? Limit us? Maybe Ralsei is one of the Black Player's pawns, trying to aid which player, I'm not sure. He could be tricking us into working against our own player (we don't know who they are or what they're doing, what battle are we even a part of??) or going against his own to help us. He's a black piece of some kind either way, he has to be. Kris may know everything, or at least way more than we do, and Ralsei may be trying to convince them to work with him, but it isn't working for some reason. Ralsei knows about us, Kris knows about him. What the hell is going on behind the scenes??? What battle between Kris and Ralsei is happening right under our nose? Idk, this probably makes no sense, I'm just ranting in a strangers youtube comment replies, but man this comment got me THINKING.

[@derpfluidvariant0916]

@@dede-qf9si considering the vast majority of the story so far has taken place in dark worlds, the theory that chapter 4 is going to be a light world chapter actually works with this. It's building up what pieces will be playing for white. For Ralsei, a point that doesn't get brought up as much, is that another darkener prince joins us in our fight. Lancer might be the actual prophesied prince of dark, and Ralsei chose to replace him to boost the fun gang's power level in the current loop. His bashfulness is more of a result of him trying not to alter things too early, and he seems to be pushing for Kris to take actions with positive long term effects. Ralsei's guidance sped up the inter-party drama in chapter 1 quite a bit, which led to a much more close-knit fun gang going forward than might've occurred previously. Imagine a timeline where Susie had no drive to hang out with Lancer, and didn't get attached to him. A lot of stuff gets recontextualised if Ralsei has even a little bit of loop awareness.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

About argument #3... I was very, VERY surprised that Kris told Undyne about the fountains seriously, and that they explained they were dangerous. Like, presented with the option "dark worlds", I thought it would be something like... Just asking if she ever heard something like that? Prodding the subject to see if she would take it seriously? But apparently Kris decides to tell her everything in detail, and with apparently worry? Like, I think we should admit Kris some agency here. Yes, we prompt them, but they are the one elaborating on the prompt.

[@princetbug]

This. It seems like they thought the prompt was "Warn about dangerous dark worlds" in the video or something. That all came from Kris. It's not like they couldn't have just played it cool, been super vague, or intentionally made it sound like a kid's fantasy on purpose. They are far from unable to do so. If anything the thing with Undyne just shows that Kris IS concerned about the dark fountains (or at least intends to act like it), weather they're making them or not.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

@@princetbug EXACTLY! Exactly. Like, this is why I like the theory that Kris created the fountain so that Undyne would see it. I won't be mad if it won't be the case, but I think it makes sense narratively and considering Kris' character and motivations - they're a reckless kid, with a penchant for creepy things, and witnessed something at the bunker which made them scared.

[@motivated2473]

"With apparently worry" That's such a shameless stretch xd We have no idea why, in this theory, Kris would be going around opening Dark Fountains. If anything, they want more people, considering they would be opening it on public places, it seems they don't really care about who finds them.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

@@motivated2473 Well I don't really believe this theory.

[@arkaring]

To support it, interacting with the locked up Kings twice in CH1 prompts them to say 'What, you say? Your world is in danger? Well, that's a shame, isn't it' We aren't given an input over what to tell the Kings, so it comes straight from Kris choosing to do so And it specifically paints the idea Kris *is* worried about the dark worlds

[@Steelhyperknight]

You forgot a major piece of evidence that completely debunks Kris is the knight Roulx Kaard has a 100% chance of being the knight, leaving 0% of chance to any other character, therfore meaning Kris isn't the knight.

[@gamingtmans6692]

absolutely based and redpilled

[@kloveart727]

my new favourite theory, you’ve sold me

[@emidemi7211]

true!!!!!

[@cherrypuddles]

unless... ROULXS IS KRIS WE'VE SOLVED DELTARUNE

[@CR1MSONACE]

​@@cherrypuddles Nah, we already know we're controlling Asriel controlling Kris who is *Dess* (ty Jaru), so Kris can't also be Rouxls, because Dess isn't Rouxls. Probably.

[@ryans-archive]

9:20 This point always bothered me. Did people just forget Chapter 1? Kris and Susie enter the closet but exit the abandoned classroom. Things in the real world can reposition themselves in the Dark World.

[@MorkerBob]

the big, golden door that ralsei shuts.

[@ryans-archive]

@@MorkerBob Yeah.

[@brodymarkiel2528]

that only happens because they warped from one dark world (closet/castle town) to another (unused classroom/card kingdom) and ONLY kris and susie move, NOT objects

[@raymondthrone7197]

@@brodymarkiel2528 there isn't a scrap of evidence to prove that because there's no null case. there's no instance of anyone entering a dark world and exiting in the same spot.

[@ryans-archive]

@@raymondthrone7197 exactly. There's only evidence to the contrary. I don't understand the argument people are trying to make?

[@Gennedy80]

Just want to say that I like your approach to these theories. It provides a "counter balance" and keeps the discussion grounded and fresh.

[@VulpineFox7]

Yeah

[@sidneywashington7108]

Agreed 👍🏾

[@belmontzar]

18:19 One other extra detail.. CASTLE TOWN JUST GOT POPULATED! Ralsei was busy working on the castle and making sure his new subjects were safe and sound. Keep in mind that the tiny shy goat boy went from Alone in an empty castle to populated town with shops, and even a Club. I honestly think he felt Kris and Susie return, realised they were not in Castle town, reached out his senses and found them alongside some dark energy. This also explains why he didn't get mad at them for not studying like he told them too.

[@shade08538]

I mean he knew it was the computer lab, since at the start of Chapter 2 he demonstrated that he knows what rooms dark worlds are, telling Kris to go to the old classroom

[@raileynashpallada9559]

​​@@shade08538also ot should show the fountain should be brand spanking new since it would be first thing ralsei would say once Kris and susie enter the closet

[@Alandus64]

Kris knight for me isn't about the who, but more so the why. I'm really looking forward to understanding Kris' decisions throughout each chapter.

[@everythingisscience658]

A fan theory I really like is that in the normal run Kris is actually really struggling with being antisocial, having drifted away from their friend group during after Asriel left. Desperately wanting help, they place all their feelings in their knife but instead of killing themselves they open a fountain. For some reason (I really like the idea of balance) this summons a soul with the ability to close the fountains into Kris's body. This results in a really fun adventure that leads to them making their first new friend in a long time (Susie). However they are too insecure to believe they can maintain this new friendship themselves and feel Susie may leave them if there are no more fountains, so Kris opens another one. The second adventure helps them reunite with their old friends so wanting to keep a good thing going, they open a new fountain during a sleep-over... perhaps hoping it will improve their relationship with their mom. This theory doesn't explain the slashed tires or any of the events in snowgrave, but I like the emotions behind it. I really relate to this version of Kris

[@chaotic_vibz3173]

​@@everythingisscience658following this train of thought, the slashed tires could just be reassurance that Susie could stay over, and possibly to get Undyne involved too, since Toriel called her about the tires. And the Snowgrave route isn't Kris' choice at all imo. As most people tend to point out, Noelle mentions that she hears a voice unlike Kris' when we manipulate her. Plus, if Kris' intentions are to make friends, it seems very unlikely he would do something like this

[@everythingisscience658]

@@chaotic_vibz3173 I really like that and will add that to my head cannon till it is disproven.

[@TJ-hg6op]

They are such a blank slate, and based on their somewhat mischievous actions I wouldn’t be surprised if they would open dark fountains.

[@motivated2473]

Following the themes of Escapism, I think Kris is just depressed and uses the Dark Worlds so they would be able to escape from the world. That's the reason they are interested in the occult, why they open the fountains and drags as much people they can into it. Maybe they're just like a D&D Master creating a story, and the people they drag into it are their unwilling players. Perhaps Ralsei is aware of that and plays along? Maybe Kris and Gaster have some sort of deal, and the latter gave the former the ability to create these Dark Worlds as his experiment, with promises of giving Kris a chance to escape from reality with a Fantasy World, where they could be a Hero. Just brainstorming, but Kris having a previous Save File in the Dark World could mean they and Gaster did this before we showed up, and we're supposed to fulfill some sort of purpose. It would make a cool parallel between Kris and Spamton, who already share the Strings stuff, by also making them both having been screwed over by Gaster after being promised something, like, to be a Big Shot, or to Escape from reality. I think I may need to give this theory more thought tho, since right now I think it makes more sense in my head than when I put it into words xd

[@BakerBones]

knowing how omniman from invincible was the villain from the beginning gave good character moments and gave a ton of suspense

[@brodymarkiel2528]

but Invincible was NOT a traditional who-dunnit. Deltarune (IMO at least) is, and if it's in a traditional who-dunnit, it comes off as frustrating instead. (if you want to know why i think this, you can ask and i'll explain)

[@motivated2473]

​@@brodymarkiel2528 Try again. In this case, we don't know JACK about Kris and their motives, so it would be a "why-dunnit" instead, kinda like Omniman (At least por people who didn't read the comics at all).

[@brodymarkiel2528]

@@motivated2473 Late but again, it's not confirmed if it's a why-dunnit rather than a who-dunnnit, and if the game is going for the latter, kris knight would be lame in that context.

[@Thegreatercheese]

@@brodymarkiel2528 Deltarune is not a who-dunnit.

[@duane6386]

31:33 Kris suggests to go to the library because Noelle asked them to take Susie there

[@PrivateDaisy]

Simple ending ulnocked

[@raymondthrone7197]

why would kris do something just because noelle asked them to. that's close to the exact opposite of how kris interacts with noelle.

[@pteroid11]

@@raymondthrone7197 Yes but if they're not around Noelle, how can they mess with Noelle?

[@motivated2473]

​​​@@pteroid11 Easy, by not being there. The best way to mess with her in this scenario. Either way, it does sounds like just an excuse made so Kris wanting to go to the library wouldn't be suspicious. And either way, they needed to do their homework anyways, so ta-da, perfect excuse.

[@pteroid11]

@@motivated2473 But being there provides many more ways to mess with Noelle.

[@BakerBones]

when susie and kris entered the dark world in chapter 1 it took a minute to fall in. reasonably noelle and berdley could have begin studying until they fell into the dark world so kris could have opened up the fountain

[@pancakes8670]

Yeah. They easily could have been walking around for a light switch like Kris and Susie were

[@DiegoHernandez-sb3fc]

genius

[@Fluffkitscripts]

That’s still assuming Kris opened the fountain while they were in there, and I don’t think they’d have been studying in the black void we saw in ch1.

[@TrixyTrixter]

​@ultramechabotronmultiversa6113 Why would he need to open it while they were in there? We have no idea how long the school closet and play room could have had its dark fountain before we stepped in.

[@blueberrimuffin6682]

@@TrixyTrixter why would berdly and noelle especially enter this freakishly dark room?

[@gliitchtheartist]

I absolutely love the idea of Kris being the antagonist. It’s so interesting and it feels like something toby would do. Whilst I’m not ENTIRELY convinced that Kris is the knight (as I think it’s too early to make any truly definitive statements), I would be thrilled if this ended up being the story toby wanted to tell. Great points!

[@sanrusdyne]

Personally my favorite thing that comes with the Kris knight scenario is that it continues and greatly adds to the theme of things not going according to plan as is shown in chapter 1 with Susie not adhering to the prophecy's idea of her. In the same way the prophecy would be completely wrong about Kris. In deltarune there's this big thematic element of breaking off of paths forged for you and making your own and Kris being the antithesis of what the prophecy and ralsei says they should be is a great example of that

[@gingergingey8271]

@@sanrusdyne people should really add this , to their LONG AS HELL SENTENCES.

[@sanrusdyne]

@gingergingey8271 I'm sorry that it's your civic duty to be pissed at nearly 1 year old thought dumps, that sounds really exhausting

[@gingergingey8271]

@@sanrusdyne didn’t even see how old the comment was.

[@SpikeForrestGaming]

Reverse undertale: We’re the good guys automatically just for playing the game

[@artemis_173]

Honestly i was always a believer of the timeline thing before but you got some points. If susie and kris woke up in a literal diffrent room than the one they enterned why would it be so far fetched to think that berdly and noelle just happened to wake up on their desks? They could have easily fall off into the darkworld the same way susie and kris did.

[@gonerdenji]

The thing of Susie and Kris have an explanation They physically changed of dark world in the chapter 1 Don't you remember that the dark world of Castle town is different from dark world of card Castle? When they went through that big door right after Ralsei dummy, they changed to the other dark world/room (that's the reason the door is inaccessible in chapter 2, because the dark world was sealed)

[@artemis_173]

@@gonerdenji i know but that doesn't matter as much... what matters is that you don't actually wake up at the exact Spot you fell into the darkworld and that could be the case for every and any darkworld.

[@OakBlu]

@@artemis_173 they didn't wake up in the same spot because they physically traveled to a different spot

[@artemis_173]

@@OakBlu that's exactly my point bruh

[@thepinkcoin1512]

@@artemis_173 they didn't wake up at the exact spot they fell into the dark world because they went to a different dark world

[@roboticspider4554]

The main issue I have with the Kris is the knight theory is their reaction to the first dark fountian. They, without our imput, back away slowly from the door and show clear heasitaion, like how they show fear after fighting spamton.

[@JammyJam5588]

If Kris went in first you think Susie wouldn't shut the door on them as a Funny (Bully) Joke?

[@roboticspider4554]

@@JammyJam5588 I mean if they were the knight they would know they could just leave through the unused classroom, as they could just take their knight Sona back up and just waltz right through card kingdom again. So no I don't think they'd be scared of getting locked in there by Susie if they were the knight.

[@that1gameguy]

Hesitation doesn't mean they don't know anything. They could have just gotten cold feet, since its likely their first time experiencing a dark world first hand.

[@pancakes8670]

I think a lot of people's issue with the Kris Knight theory is that they don't like the idea of Kris being "Evil" or "The Villain". Kris is already a very sympathetic character who we are rooting for, despite the fact we're actively taking over their life (against out own wills of course). However, I don't think Kris being the Knight means they're "Evil", there's a Myriad of explanations for why Kris would be opening Dark Fountains. Of course, the counter to this would be that the Knight is called the "Roaring Knight", obviously implying that they're trying to cause the Roaring. Again, there's a Myriad of reasons Kris would want that. We don't don't fully understand what the Roaring is, as Ralsei very infamously is holding information from us. My point being that I've seen a lot of people dismiss the Kris Knight theory simply off the bases that it implies Kris is a villain. That to me isn't a good enough reason to dismiss it. Kris being both the Protagonist and the Antagonist would actually be a really interesting way of exploring Deltarunes themes.

[@JammyJam5588]

I honestly agree with your point there, it really feels like people are desperate to not see Kris in a bad light with these very flimsy arguments. A sort of toxic positivity sadly induced via Undertales fandom, woobifying and forgiving every character.

[@EpicFailureFive]

For me it's more about the length of the game. If the main conflict only actually revolves around Kris and the Player, why does the game need to be 7+ chapters long to reach that conclusion?

[@ZodiaXmasteR794]

Definitely, everytime I see someone take issue with the theory, it really feels like most of them just dislike the idea of "villain" Kris. The first time I saw the neon Knife scene (followed by the ending, them making the fountain explicitly) I never really doubted that the knight is Kris themself (or an entity possessing them, but that's another theory). The game gives us The Knight's identity while simultaneously giving another question, like why would Kris do all this? The identity of the knight is not the important part, but figuring out Kris' own motive and what the hell is up with this kid. Kris is not as "clueless" as the fandom thought, they definitely knew what they are doing with the SOUL and do a set of pre-planned, specific actions to reach the outcome they want. People think that we are controlling Kris, when it's actually the opposite: They are the one with control over The Soul since they can just rip the Soul whenever they can. We are at their mercy, and likely having symbiotic relationship where Kris needs our existence in the grand scheme of their plan. To this day, it still boggles me how people still think Kris eating the pie means they just want to "prank" us. Hell no, it's very likely that they ate the pie so Susie can come and stay in their home and get sucked into the fountain they made at the end of the chapter (together with Toriel for some reason...) This however, doesn't mean Kris (or even the possessor) has become a "villain", and even if that's the case I trust Toby to make a narratively satisfying plot to this premise. The problem in this fandom is that people are being very toxic to theories they don't like and do whatever they can to disprove this. They think that The Player vs Kris is the core theme of the game when we're still in chapter 2, we don't even know what Kris' own feeling regarding us. Are they mad at us? are they indifferent? Are we on a strictly business relationship? lol

[@shellpoptheepicswordmaster755]

Except chara, some people think that they are evil.

[@Fall-oo6mt]

lol or maybe the theory just doesn't make that much sense people really forget that kris flinched and walked back before entering the closet dark world why on earth would he do that if he made the fountain himself

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

If I may add to the timeline debate; there's actually two cited sources for Queen going crazy, the fountain as described by Sweet Cap'n Cakes, & the internet going down as described by another NPC. Now it's possible Queen had 2 bouts of losing sanity, but the implication to me is that both are seen as possible causes for the same change in Queen behaviour, implying they happened at around the same time. Not only would that put the forming of the fountain before the school day, it implies the Knight's the one who took down the internet, which I feel lines up with their behaviour setting-up Card Castle.

[@danielle5160]

Another point I'd like to bring up is that the Knight's identity isn't really portrayed as a big mystery. Obviously it is a mysterious element, but none of the characters ever point out that we don't know who it is. I'm not sure if that's really a piece of evidence either way regarding Kris being the Knight, but I still think it's worth keeping in mind.

[@Firedgoose69]

I see your point but the reason they dont say that is because they seen the knight while we havent

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

I think Kris being the Knight makes very little sense from a thematic standpoint, as the knight’s implied actions contradict with how Kris’ character is portrayed as. The knight is a mysterious, powerful, and is seemingly controlling things behind the scenes. An example of this is how they are implied to have took over card castle, and ordered the king to destroy the lighteners. While it’s never explicitly said the King is a servant to the Knight, or that he took over card kingdom on the Knight’s behalf, it is heavily implied. “Historically, this land was ruled by the four Kings, from CARD CASTLE to the East”. “But recently, a strange knight appeared…” “And three of the kings were locked away”. “The remaining King put him and his strange son into power”. -Seam “Once, all four of us ruled together, but when the Knight arrived, everything changed”. -Three kings “By the knight’s will, I shall shatter your heart to pieces!” “My KNIGHT… I shall not fail you”. -King The Knight is mentioned as “appearing”, and their arrival is what cause the three kings to be locked up. And King dialogue seems much more personal than Queen’s dialogue. Also, the Knight could have lied about their intentions, or about what the details of what the roaring is. And it’s likely the throne room damage is a fight with the Knight, since the king doesn’t have a slicing weapon, but a chain, and the Knight is mentioned by queen to have a blade. I guess the Rudin king could have a blade, since the Rudin have blades, but that’s a stretch. This already creates issues with Kris being the Knight, since not only has the King not be able to recognize Kris as the Knight, but Kris has to be strong enough to overpower all four kings, while they couldn’t handle even King. So you have to assume Kris can change their appearance, is far stronger than they let on, can change their voice, and orders King to destroy them and their allies. That is a lot of assumptions, and this seems to portray Kris as a mastermind, playing both sides for some unknown purpose, being the creator and sealer of dark fountains, or they don’t want us to seal the fountains, and are going behind our back to try and destroy the world or something. (I know Spamton implies the Knight is possibly communicating with someone else, so they may be receiving orders from an even higher source, as he mentions the Knight having something to do with “Communion”, but suddenly freaks out while trying to say it. But it’s still unclear exactly what this means, so it isn’t solid evidence). But this contradicts from how Kris is portrayed as a weird, but not malicious person who just wants to fit in better and be loved. They are also portrayed as someone who feels they lack control, a “HEART ON A STRING”, which is why they are disturbed by Spamton so much. Are there things about Kris we don’t know? Yes. Are there things Kris knows but won’t tell us? Yes, they are even implied to have gone in the Gaster bunker at one point, and we know pretty much nothing about it. Are they planning things we don’t know about? Definitely. But are they the Knight? I highly doubt it.

[@luluzin5022]

I believe that the Knight locking away the other kings could've been as simple as locking away their cards before opening the Fountain. Despite being simple objects in the Light World, Darkners appear to remember events that would've happened before their Fountain was even created. Seam claims that the Lightners were like gods to the Darkners, but then they were locked away "in this prison" and the Lightners never came back. This is supposed to represent how the kindergarten classroom is no longer being used, and all the toys were forgotten inside a locker. Clearly, Seam is retelling that event from his limited perspective as plush toy. Therefore, when characters in Chapter 1 mention the Knight putting the spades king in power, that could've been done before the Fountain was open. Locking away the three king cards would translate to locking away the three kings from a Darkner's perspective. This interpretation allows for Kris to be the Knight without being recognized by the spades king and without having to defeat the other kings. The thrashed throne room could pose a threat to my argument, but I believe that room to be a result of the Darkners' memories shaping the Dark World. As long as they believe that a battle between the Knight and the three kings occurred, evidence of said battle must exist somewhere. Still, I really liked your points about Kris being characterised as a puppet on a string, and how that would clash with them being a mastermind playing both sides.

[@bearturtle6058]

If the throne room thrashing is King fighting with The Knight, why does he still look up to him?

[@lukematzner7996]

I disagree on some points. First all, what do you think would happen if Kris brought their knife into the dark world? And keep in mind that Kris has super strong attacks like X-Slash which they wouldn’t use unless fighting alone against Spamton neo. Kris is pretty powerful. Second, I think Kris being the knight lines up their story more with Spamtons, not less. Remember Spamton was just another normal Addison before he chose to do the cumunion which turned hem into a puppet for more power and control so he could become a big shot. Then later chose to become Spamton neo and become dependent on the strings controlling his body, in order to be able to control all of cyber city in snowgrave. For Kris knight, Kris was a normal person before they chose to try and control the story of deltarune (to be its mastermind), but this forced them to take the soul and become our puppet, giving up their freedom to do basic every day actions, and even potentially made them dependent on us physically like Spamton is with his strings.

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

@@lukematzner7996 1. X-slash is only available after “getting stronger” by defeating enemies. We don’t know for sure if that’s the reason Kris can use the move, but it could be. 2. Spamton didn’t become a puppet by making a communion, he was always not very successful, but after getting help, he had it all. Until the voice stopped calling, and he had nothing. Now he wants to get that success, and is desperately trying to do whatever it takes to get it. And Kris isn’t supposed to be exactly like Spamton, but rather relate to having a lack of control, and being desperate to change that. Not continuing their plans, but behind our backs.

[@TrixyTrixter]

​@@waluigiisthebest2802 Kris never gets stronger in snowgrave. It specifies that Noelle gets stronger only. Its been a while so if he gets X-slash outside of the solo spamton neo fight do tell. But I am fairly sure that never happens.

[@bee1104]

I think maybe instead of the dark worlds creation being dependent on the fountain, the contents of the dark world may be linked to the people who walk into it, that could be why when Susie joined it formed around her, and it forming around Noelle and Berdly. This idea can also explain odd timelines for the dark worlds. The fountains may not be related to the dark worlds formation, rather the dark world and the lightners collective consciousness building these realms.

[@Stoopid420]

It could be like persona palaces

[@VulpineFox7]

Good theory

[@MeloniestNeon]

I always thought that while the "Story" that plays out via the dark worlds does function to further the character growth of whomever the fountain "links" to (Susie in C1, Noelle and to a lesser extent Burghly in C2) the contents of the dark fountain itself (Locations, darkners, ect.) are based on the physical objects in that area (proven by the playing cards being Rouxls and Lancer) and the emotional connections and previous places those objects have been effect the personalities, power level, and "backstories" of those darkners (Tasque manager and Queen have been to the Card Kingdom as they know King and Jevil, my headcanon being they are both formed from programs on the computer the old teacher (likely Gerson) used while teaching that class)

[@VulpineFox7]

@@MeloniestNeon great theory at the end!

[@dummyyogurt5375]

there's a difference between unintentional details like the clocks having different times and the *very* intentional detail of adding the "this closet is big enough for a person to hide in" dialog when interacting with the library closet. one is an inadvertent mistake that was done without noticing, the other was something toby had to go *out of his way to add*.

[@spookydood5500]

I definitely agree, the closet specifically is a detail he intentionally added. My assumption about that line, though, is that it implies something about post-snowgrave. But I do understand why this is a pretty good argument against Kris Knight

[@gingergingey8271]

@@spookydood5500 or it's the queens mansion with the mech.

[@ShadowEclipse777]

I'm more than happy to hear a defense of "Kris is the Knight" because it's still very plausible and anytime I hear "Gaster is The Knight" I feel like I'm going to have an aneurysm If Gaster is involved with the game as potentially the Goner Maker and/or as the Mystery Man contacting the Secret Bosses, his actions seem to be directly opposed of the Knight's. He's trying to bring awareness of the end of the game (likely the Roaring) to people so they and attempt to change things and then ultimately reaching out to our world to establish a connection with us, the Player, someone who has true freedom not bound by the world of Deltarune so we can change things Also just one thing to add that I think is strong evidence for the Ch2 Dark World being made in the middle of Berdly and Noelle's study session is that the first thing Queen says when the Fun Gang bumps her and Noelle is "Hell of a study session" which could imply Berdly and Noelle had been studying for some time before winding up in the Dark World

[@raymondthrone7197]

gaster being the knight is possibly the least sensical theory. we know for a fact the knight is a lightner, and also they have a physical body with which they open fountains. gaster may or may not count as a lightner given his current state, but by definition he doesn't possess a single physical form any longer.

[@nickfarace9339]

Faster definitely isn't the knight, but we know full well he is influencing characters in the dark world. We don't know exactly how far a reach his influence has either, just that it exists.

[@Fall-oo6mt]

I dislike both theories tbh.

[@astral_pilot]

One thing that didn’t make sense to me about the timeline bit is that one thing I heard that was against kris being the knight is that it would’ve been really hard for kris to make it all the way to the library and back without his soul. As we can see that without it they struggle to walk. But in chapter two there are multiple people who point out that kris must have not gotten much sleep last night when they fall asleep in class. Alphys straight up calls this out as abnormal behavior. So Kris must have spent all night doing something, which could be creating the cyber world dark fountain.

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

@astral_pilot the “Soul” that we see in undertale (and also Deltarune) is Ours (whoever was playing), as explained by Chara.

[@dumpanimator]

​@@xXRickTrolledXxstill we never even know Kris have their own souls i mean even flowey not have soul

[@mimikyu4327]

That COULD have also just been them staying up all night watching TV and eating Pie. Fits into what we know for sure they were doing, and explains why the TV was plugged in.

[@bitterman213]

Kris knight is possible but it comes with huge baggage. Kris could have opened the library fountain in the man-sized closet hours earlier, and it didn’t spread through the computer lab until Noelle or Berdly opened the closet door, but that’s a stretch, no one else opened that door? and you have to throw out the appealing idea that kris learned how to open the fountains by example from the information in queen’s palace, queen herself, and berdly, then decided to open chapter 3 fountain for their own purposes. Kris could be trying to gain power to fight the knight or even the player by opening their own fountains.

[@pancakes8670]

That isn't what Kris Knight theory says though. Kris Knight theory says that Kris opened the Library Dark Fountain right after Chapter 1 ended. The Pie joke at the beginning of Chapter 2 was a red herring to make players not think about what Kris was doing all night.

[@KyrieFortune]

​@@pancakes8670 thing is, the pie can be a red herring for a lot of things it could be a red herring for Kris learning to open Dark Fountains it could be a red herring for Kris accidentally hurting or killing someone and they are trying to undo their mistake it could be a red herring from Kris hurting THEMSELVES (why do they have a bandage in the light world, mmh?) it could also be just a pie

[@bitterman213]

@@pancakes8670 you have to accept that the library dark fountain was just chilling up there for a day

[@mxlsiia]

⁠@@bitterman213 to be fair, their town in deltarune doesn't have that many people. plus, wasnt the internet not really working through the whole town during chapter 1 and 2 (before they went into the cyber world)? when you talk to alphys after kris fell asleep in class, she asks if kris had been texting asriel all night, before saying something like she remembered the internet hasn't been working lately. if the internet wasn't working, nobody would really have a reason to go inside the computer lab, except for students. which would make sense for noelle and berdly to be the first one to go in.

[@Thegreatercheese]

For the "no one opened the library door" argument I'd like to counterpoint with another question. How can there still be a dark fountain in the closet at school? I mean, come one no one else went in there? Into a well populated school that might need supplies and no one else found castle town and the dark world? Do you see what I'm getting at here, saying "why did nobody discover the library dark world?" isn't so much a counter argument as it is just letting people use the exact same point to highlight other potential plot holes with the other dark fountains and their light world locations. I mean after all *why hasn't anybody discovered the dark fountain at the school?*

[@crazygamingoscar7325]

The initial debunking of the timeline is one of those points i don't agree with, queen is very active during the game and 5 minutes or so could honestly be time enough for queen to do a bunch of knight stuff.

[@crazygamingoscar7325]

Also I will point out the way I think darkworld's work: Its based on what happened with actual items in the real world before the fountain opens the "History" is related to the history of the objects. Thats why some people mention the creation of the world (Because it has been created) and also have history.

[@jargalo0098]

I agree, also I see no reason the dark world had to be opened after Kris & Susie leave Castle Town, which gives even more time for all that to happen.

[@crazygamingoscar7325]

ALSO ALSO, "Player Bad" isn't the only option. Kris can Veiw the player as bad, I would veiw someone possessing me as bad, if they didn't explain.

[@TheEmeraldCreeper]

@@jargalo0098 I think it happened while they were in Castle town, definitely not after.

[@gingergingey8271]

@@TheEmeraldCreeper still would not be enough time for the knight to open a fountain, run without being noticed by Berdly or Noelle, not be noticed by the MASS TRAFIC JAM, and not be even slightly noticed by Kris or Susie.

[@tevildo7718]

This is certainly an interesting video and while I am personally rather skeptical of Knight Kris I do think you made a good attempt at arguing for it, though I do think there is some holes in your argument: 1: Your argument that the widely accepted Kris can't be the Knight timeline relies too much on coincidence (particularly around Noelle and Berdly happening upon the room the Knight was making a Fountain in) can be answered by contending that what happened *wasn't* a coincidence, what if the reason the Knight made that Dark Fountain and was hiding in the closet of that room was to trap Noelle in a Dark World? This might seem farfetched but remember Noelle is the Angel (or at least strongly implied to be) Spamton calls her that, Queen who doesn't even know about the prophecy calls Noelle strong to the exclusion of every other Lightner there. We saw what she can do in the Weird Route, and the Spamton Sweepstakes shows that even in the Light World strange entities and Darkners have a habit of trying to commune with Noelle through Spamton's emails, the pizza box winking at her, glitches in video games, the weird thing with the light socket, generally speaking weird entities in this world seem to consistently seek out Noelle or stumble upon her, assuming the Knight isn't Papyrus on a wish fulfilment quest it's completely possible they know or suspect Noelle is the Angel or that she is special and they wanted to trap her specifically in a Dark World for some reason. 2: Your argument about the passage of time and how Sweet Cap'n Cakes statement about how long it's been since the Fountain was opened is a good one, but I would argue that it can also be placed with the rest of the vague and contradictory statements by Darkners about their history, the passage of time, and the nature of their own existence with or without Dark Fountains, hell maybe the time dilation that would be needed for this statement to make sense happened when the Fountain was formed but before the Dark World was, we see at the end of chapter 2 that it takes about a minute for Darkness to completely consume a room, maybe the few weeks that must have passed from the Darkner's PoV since the Fountain was opened encompasses the time between the Fountain opening and the room being consumed by Darkness. There is also the secondary issue that no matter how you look at it, it's *weird* if the Dark World was already there when Berdly and Noelle reached the lab, sure Susie questioned if it was all a dream at the end of chapter 1 but her memories of events leading up to her falling into the Dark World wasn't changed as far as we know, if the Dark World was fully formed before Noelle and Berdly entered the lab they'd have memories of opening the door to find a weird dark void where the room should be, and all the other clear supernatural stuff. 3: This one is just a little nitpick, the mayor COULD still be the Knight in that scenario and shouldn't be debunked just because she wants what's best for Noelle, we consistently see people in Noelle's life disregard what she wants and what she thinks for her own good, Queen being the worst offender of this and there are clear thematic parallels between the Mayor and Queen, that said I don't think it's her I just don't think the reason you presented works to disqualify her from being the Knight.

[@tevildo7718]

I am just going to reply to myself to add some smaller points since the OG comment was so long XD. 4.5: One minor quibble I have with you is whether the King met the Knight or not (Queen definitely did not, no arguments there.) While it's vague about what role the Knight exactly had in the deposition of the three other card Kings it's implied that their presence in the Dark World was pivotal: Diamond King: "Woe! Oh, Woe! We are the three Former Kings! We beg you, free us! Once, all four of us ruled together, but when the Knight arrived, everything changed..." Spade King: "Begone! We have found fresh purpose. For the KNIGHT has appeared. The KNIGHT that pulls the Fountains from the earth. Holy Fountains, whose shadows are creating a new world... OUR world." Seam: "Historically, this land was ruled by the Four Kings, from CARD CASTLE to the East. But, recently, a strange knight appeared... And three of the kings were locked away. The remaining king put him and his strange son into power. This land hasn't seen THIS much chaos since... Ha ha ha... Well, you don't need to know about THAT." It'd be a bit weird for King to be this devoted to a Lightner given his whole personality if he never met the Knight and if the Knight had nothing to do with the King's whole scheme and his rise to power, Queen is an example of a Darkner who never met the Knight and we can see that while she is inspired by what the Knight is doing she doesn't worship it like King does, she just wants to make her own new Dark Fountains with blackjack and hookers.

[@reggilad_9043]

I fully understand why people follow the kris being the knight theory, and wouldnt be shocked if its true, but i feel like the simple issue that the king dosent recognize kris as the knight hurts it to much for me to believe. I get queen not recognizing him cause its implied she only saw the fountain being formed and not the knight, but the knight was the person who imprisoned the former kings and put the spade king in power, so i can only imagine he met the knight. So the king not recognizing kris would be weird, it would mean ch1 's ending in hindsight would just be a plothole cause we could have just been told right there that kris is the knight Still, great video Edit: thank you everyone who corrected me, I forgot that kris is they/them

[@fossfox]

Seam also having met the Knight and not recognizing Kris (as well as speaking about the Knight in an explicit way meant to convey that it was someone not in the room at the time) kind of kills it

[@UnoriginalJokester]

Knights are well known for wearing armor, so it's possible that Kris was hiding their identity by wearing full body armor.

[@reggilad_9043]

@@UnoriginalJokester were would they have gotten the armor from? We never see chris or any other lightners wear anything other then there default clothes in the dark world (except I guess when they change clothes for certain acts but idk if that counts) we also don't know what the knight looks like. For all we know he isn't hiding his appearance, most irl knight armour didnt have fully enclosed helmets like you see in media

[@UnoriginalJokester]

@@reggilad_9043 There's a part of this video that explains that Kris planned these adventures beforehand. Telling Susie to come to the library, plugging in the TV, etc. So, if they planned this beforehand, then they would want to hide their appearance as the Knight. There's a lot of things we don't know about Kris, so for all we know, they have access to armor or some object that turns into armor in the Dark World.

[@JammyJam5588]

Where did the King say he saw the Knight? Nowhere? Not a plot hole then. Things implied queen personally knew the knight too til end of chapter. (Including actual FOOTAGE of the dark fountain being made) Not to mention her saying she just presumed the knight's will upon the dark fountain's creation, with similar confidence to how the King said the Knight instated him as the sole ruler.

[@davidturner1595]

(commenting this before I've finished the video) I don't think that Kris is the knight for various reasons, but I honestly really want them to be.

[@VulpineFox7]

Fair, that makes sense

[@ethanotoroculus1060]

100% agreed. The storytelling potential of having our main character be the twist villain is INSANE, why is everyone sleeping on it-

[@TJ-hg6op]

@@ethanotoroculus1060People always disagree and hate on stuff that is or was popular. Kris knight theory was one of the most popular theories, so everyone started attempting to debunk it, and some people flat out saying it is IMPOSSIBLE.

[@ezekielbenavides2740]

Here's a piece of evidence I haven't seen anyone mention: One of the chess pieces calls you "Horsie" whenever you speak to them, which, of course, is what people who aren't familiar with chess often call the 'Knight' piece, since it's traditionally a carved horse, not a carved rider and horse.

[@crisis420]

someone please hear me out. i need to get this outta my head. remember the pie from undertale? remember eating just a *slice* heals you a ton? kris ate the entire. pie. and i feel like this is no coincidence, especially when it comes to toby's storytelling. i'm going to propose something that's probably crazy, but just listen. i believe this action was to heal themselves after opening the chapter 2 fountain (the cybers world). wait, why heal themselves? why would they need to? what would hurt them so badly that they would need to not just eat one slice of the pie, but *several?* well, pulling out a soul looks like it hurts. it also *sounds* like it hurts. no, literally. i'm talking about sound effects. it sounds *exactly* like the sfx that play when you get *injured* in a fight. i wouldn't doubt that being hurt so badly would leave kris with *very low health,* just on the verge of completely breaking the soul, but not quite. which we know from undertale, breaking a human soul is actually quite difficult to do. so, time out for a moment. if kris' goal that night wasn't simply to eat the pie... then what *was* their goal, then? well, if the pie was merely a red herring, well... there's not really a lot of options on what that is, unless it was something we have no knowledge about at this point in time. but, for me at least, there's just too many strange coincidences to ignore here. seriously, how many coincidences can happen until it's just plain suspicious? heck, kris even went to bed early. there's at least *several* hours of time, completely unaccounted for, that simply can't be ignored here. for starters, we know for a fact now that kris opening the dark fountain at the end of chapter 2 didn't exactly take too much time. disregarding all of the waiting around and preparation they had to do to actually put their plans into action, the act of *opening* the fountain itself took surprisingly very little time at all. so what does this all mean? i'm not entirely sure, but... to put this in simple ace attorney logic, there is a *huge gap of time we know nothing about, all during the night at the end of chapter 1 until morning at the beginning of chapter 2.* this leads me to believe that, if anything, even if kris turns out to be completely innocent somehow (which i doubt)... *kris is still an extremely unreliable narrator.* this could explain why the opening of chapter 2 was so funny and disarming, as if to lampshade any suspicions you might have about kris, albeit momentarily. this inevitably might lead you to believe it was all a joke on the fandom, until the very end of the chapter, which just makes you suspicious of them all over again. and that feeling of seeing that final scene of chapter 2, after learning what the roaring apparently does from ralsei? yeah. it definitely feels like a betrayal. but, wait... what if ralsei is wrong somehow? well, that's a discussion for another time, but... i will say, i do think it's interesting to wonder just how much of what ralsei says is actually fact. and why exactly does ralsei just conveniently know all of this when nobody else seems to, even other darkners? is it because he's special somehow? but, wait a minute... who the heck is ralsei, anyway?? like... we don't even actually know for sure, and that's actually pretty scary to me. and if all of that isn't enough of a reason to question what we think we know, then i have no idea what is. and even with all that, i could be entirely incorrect, but that only proves my point further. we have no clue what anything in deltarune actually is. and that's actually pretty cool.

[@ender64yeahthatguy]

To add on to Ralsei sensing a dark presence: we know that more than one dark fountain puts the balance of light and dark at risk, so I feel like it's possible that the cyberworld dark fountain becoming more close to causing the roaring is what Ralsei had sensed.

[@EpicFailureFive]

There's actually an easter egg in one of Temmie's games, Dweller's Empty Path, which implies Ralsei can sense dark fountains. Basically you can find three characters named Krys, Zusy, and Lerias. They are looking for a fountain, but Lerias says he can't sense the presence of one in that world.

[@michaelkindt3288]

I personally think it's unlikely that Gaster put the soul in Kris, mainly due to the create a vessel segment. After all, If Gaster's plan was to put us inside Kris the whole time, why have us waste time in character creation? To teach us a shoehorned in lesson? And combine that with the allege writing differences between the bulk of the Garner maker sequence and the black background text at the end (The former using a combination of kanji and katakana, The latter using a combination of kanji and hiragana, If I am not mistaken), and I think it's quite likely that Kris intentionally stole the red soul from gaster (it is also possible that, referring to Andrew soul diagram, that the red soul belongs to Kris, who is letting us possess it, but that seems less likely). Given this, I think it is quite possible that Kris will have an adversarial relationship with Gaster. While Kris might not necessarily be trying to undermine Gaster, they will at least not care about whatever gastro is trying to do, and Gaster will, at best, view Kris as a nuisance getting in the way of his plans. This has a lot of interest in story potential, especially since it allows for gaster to get for the development in a way that doesn't feel forced or like a derailing of the story.

[@tentativegazer]

Meh, for me personally part of the appeal of Kris is that they are a normal kid who gets possessed against their will, and having them do that just to mess with Gaster would undermine that a lot. Also I think it's extremely clear they are NOT being willingly possessed, many stuff from chapter 2 alludes to them feeling trapped as a puppet that can't survive without their strings (spamton) and frequently shows clear opposition to some of the players choices which wouldn't make as much sense if they decided to do this. Also them stealing the red soul from gaster doesn't really make sense because then they'd be soulless before the game and from each chapters' respective ending it's clear it's not possible for them to survive in that state. I think it's so much less complicated if Gaster had us make the Goner for different reason and always intended for us to inhabit Kris regardless.

[@michaelkindt3288]

@@tentativegazer-.-I made sure to not imply that Kris was doing this to specifically mess with Gaster. Well it is possible that Kris had at least partial motive to interfere with Gaster's plan, I think it is much more likely that Kris just needed a soul and, for whatever reason, our's was just convenient to take. I doubt Kris even knows whatever Gaster is planning, but is probably ambivalent towards it either way. Since Kris puts the soul back in their body at the end of chapter 2, we know they must need the soul for whatever reason. We can afford from the bathroom scene, and the implication of what happened between chapters, that it takes more than a few minutes to die in the absence of a soul (assuming that is what happens, which given right to conventions, is quite likely), and while people probably would have noticed if Kris was soulless for a week or more, I believe it's quite likely that Kris did lose their soul before the event of chapter 1, likely between a few hours to the previous day beforehand.

[@tentativegazer]

@@michaelkindt3288 oh I'm sorry I didn't catch that! I was mostly talking about the idea of Kris stealing the soul from gaster, as that would imply that they were more aware of what was happening then I personally think they should be, which is why I was talking about the appeal being that Kris is just a kid. I think the clarifications you offer on your reply make the theory a lot more compelling, I just didn't pick up on them at first lol. I think the idea that Kris is completely in the dark but still had to steal the soul somehow to prevent it from being used in the goner is honestly pretty cool, but idk how that would relate to the voice interrupting gaster. I don't think that voice is Chara (at least I really hope not) but so far I feel like we don't have many other compelling candidates.

[@michaelkindt3288]

@@tentativegazer-.-Thank you for your understanding. I would like to say that I believe the other voice to be Kris. Well I don't know why they would be giving a speech about the futility of choice when taking a soul (which sounds silly when spoken out loud), given what little we know about them, the fact that they are the only human in a society full of monsters while having desire to _be_ a monster at some point in the past, the fact that the older brother (who is the actual biological child of their parents) is implied to be more accomplished than them, and what ever baggage comes from not having a soul and yet still needy one, Kris is likely in a position where they would be thinking the types of thoughts that comprise the dialogue of the second voice.

[@tentativegazer]

@@michaelkindt3288 honestly I think that's a cool thought! It still is strange to me because gaster doesn't seem particularly annoyed with this development, which is what led me to think more that he was using the goner for another purpose, but I suppose it could also just be that he's rolling with the punches lol

[@orngjce223]

This reminds me of how every Steven Universe theorist ever was convinced that (spoilers) Rose Quartz being Pink Diamond was foreshadowed so ridiculously heavily that it couldn't possibly be the case. Except it turned out that the foreshadowing was so ridiculously heavy-handed so that even the casual viewer could come up with the theory on their own. EDIT: If this was indeed intended to be the Kris Knight reveal, I'm pretty sure Toby Fox sees our fan theories and would immediately verify Kris Knight in an unquestionable way in the next chapter. So we will have our answer one way or another soon enough.

[@imjaymaybe]

The problem with trying to understand a character that we somehow know less about in comparison to GASTER of all people is that literally anything can work so long as they exist in the same universe. As for Kris specifically, I think they've already got enough going on and based on a surprising amount of evidence they seem to be building themselves as a tragic character rather than an antagonistic one. Even if they were the knight, (which is unlikely for just as many reasons as any other character being the knight,) I doubt that they would be a force we fight be rather one that we try to redeem to a better way of dealing with their issues.

[@gingergingey8271]

Antagonists can be turned into allies, also, antagonist and villain are two separate things, not all villains are antagonists, and not all antagonists are villains, here's two examples: The Joker in "The Joker" and Light Yagami in "Death Note" they are the villains, yet PROTAGONIST.

[@pikazilla6405]

I firmly believe the knight is either kris or some other character we've never met. I kinda feel like "who in the town is the knight???" Is the wrong question the community should be asking themselves because this has never been presented as a sort of who done it mystery. The narrative and the crew seem wholly uninterested in the identity of the knight and its not as if Ralsei says something like "the fate of the world hinges on us finding out who the knight is and stopping them, and they're IN YOUR HOME TOWN". The lack of narrative importance placed on the knights identity makes me feel like the community is kinda wasting their time on this when two answers, either it's kris or some other character toby hasn't showed us, are so likely.

[@DakNJaxter]

I also wonder if teasing Kris as the Knight is something of a Schrodinger's double bluff. Like, Undertale opened by subverting it's trailer's assertion that is was a friendly game where no one had to get hurt. Similarly, Chapter 1 ends with the hint that there might be something nefarious about Kris, only for the opening to the next Chapter to imply is was a joke/misdirect. Then Chapter 2 goes on to up-end our suspicions of Kris. They weren't the nefarious one, we are!... or are we? Wrong footing the audience is a great technique, especially for a mystery based narrative, because it forces us to question what's real, and what's deception in every layer of text. On it's simplest level, Kris can't be the Knight because it's too obvious, or it's obviousness is a misdirect to trick us into thinking they can't be the Knight when in fact they are. Something something Jack Sparrow.

[@leritykay8911]

22:00 Huh, you know now that I think about it, what plot twists does fnaf even have? A lot of surprising moments are not plot twists but rather confirming what the fandom knows, or being vague. Looking at the main series, the only thre honest-to-gos plot twists I can think of, is Purple guy=Springtrap, the "BiTe oF 87?!", And Henry's speech

[@ImmOmega-dv6yf]

I think the reason why Noelle and Berdly wake up the way they did is possibly due to susie and Kris making it look like they fell asleep during studying.

[@wscamel226]

0:03 - nah, the Death Star blowing up is much better.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

I do think at some point, we will control a character other than Kris and we'll fight them. There's code in the files of the game for keeping track of any characters named after the player in the Light World. There's also evidence that we're supposed to do something with the saves at a later point in time. Add that to the points you raised and I think this whole story is going to shock so many people when its finished.

[@arthurgabrielalvestomelin3025]

how is kris going to survive without the soul?

[@DailyDeltaNews]

@@arthurgabrielalvestomelin3025 to be fair they do rip it out of them during the cutscenes at the end of each game, so maybe they do it temporarily? or maybe we fight alongside kris, but we meet another human? or kris uses another lightner's soul?

[@TheSkyGuy77]

@@arthurgabrielalvestomelin3025 They'll find a way somehow. There's 5 more chapters to figure that out, at least

[@heat-seekingattackfrisbeem5878]

I don't I thing the goner is going to be the the kight the player is playing the game to Escape from life and makes more dark world so there a game to play

[@goddessdeedeebubblesofimag7789]

I absolutely REFUSE to believe the Knight is anyone other than Kris. It's right in our faces. He looks the part in the Dark World. He rips us out and sneaks off with a knife at the end of each chapter, doing something non-Knight-y with it as a cover-up (the pie and the tires). Queen talks about how the Knight has to stab the earth, and when she brings up the blade, a green hologram of A KNIFE shows up. And *_WE LITERALLY SEE KRIS STAB THE EARTH AND CREATE ANOTHER DARK FOUNTAIN IN HIS OWN HOUSE. WE'RE ALL DUMB AND DENSE AND LOOKING TOO DEEPLY INTO THINGS._*

[@gonerdenji]

They*

[@vratti2236]

@@gonerdenji A whole ass comment and that is the only thing you point out X D

[@gonerdenji]

@@vratti2236 I have nothing to say xD So I correct them and that's it

[@lbsc1201]

@@gonerdenji kris has no canonical gender

[@gingergingey8271]

@@lbsc1201 they are canonically non binary, which is different from Frisk, who just couldn't be decided.

[@basilschuman7159]

On how Noelle and Berdly started studying: It's entirely possible that something like the closet scene in Chapter 1 ALWAYS happens the first time Lightners enter a Dark World. I can very easily imagine a pitch-black room missing many of the computer room's decor but still having a table set up. Noelle asks Berdly to find the light switch while she sets out their studying materials, THEN the floor gives out and they fall into the cliffs area of the Cyber World.

[@lgam3r920]

Meanwhile, I believe Papyrus is the knight. Just a gut feeling. He still hasn't appeared and I can see it happen that Papyrus simply does this out of a misunderstanding like every lightner would.

[@blackbloom8552]

From the theories i have heard, papyrus does seem to be the strongest candidate so far, at least thematically. A sad and lonely teen using the dark world to fulfill his fantasies of being a beloved hero, not realising the terrible consequences of his actions, would be a perfect fit for the escapism theme of the game.

[@secrethasfunyt]

Honestly just assumed Kris was the knight and moved on when I saw the chapter 2 ending originally tbh- I never knew there were people fighting that suspenseful plot twist at all in the first place o - o Kris just makes the most sense

[@TrixyTrixter]

I think thats the reason people fight it. People want it to be some huge plot twist that reveals it.

[@princetbug]

It's because that scene is virtually the only evidence *for* it. There isn't solid evidence against it either, so it could be some red herring, or even be something deeper like anyone who opens a dark fountain is dubbed "the Knight" and there are actually 3 of them. We don't know. Assuming Kris is the knight is the most boring answer from this standpoint since the evidence for it is small and very cut and dry. Thus it's more interesting to theorize in other directions

[@gonerdenji]

I mean, it's the same chapter when it's said that ANY lightner can create a fountain

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

@@princetbug You kidding? I've seen way more boring candidates for who the Knight could be. Like I've seen so many genuine-looking suggestions that the Knight could be the character creation vessel by people who don't seem to realize that's just the Trash Machine joke again. And the Knight being Kris would make our relationship with them a lot more dynamic and fun to explore than "kid we're mind controlling and maybe we're supposed to feel bad about that? Idk, it's not like we asked for this either," because it means Kris has a lot more agency in our relationship that first thought, enough in fact to act as an antagonist towards us (for a time at least; no way that'd last for too long). And not only is that an expansion for the existing 'player vs player character' theme we've already got going, it's also an interesting idea I don't think I've seen in other games. Compare that the if the Knight were Papyrus (fan-favourite candidate pulled from thin-air) or Undyne (the only non-Kris suspect with the barest amount of evidence pointing to her being the Knight. That being she was next to the Library). Sure it's a shocking twist but how good is the follow up? What themes are explored this way? Would it really be so interesting to make a major villain this Undertale character outside that twist factor? Because I've seen lots of Knight Papyrus proposals and let me tell you, they make him sound so uninteresting. I'd rather just explore Kris' motives and relationship to us I think. (My money's on them opening Dark Worlds in an attempt to find Dess.)

[@Pikrioling]

​@@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vgThe vessel isn't the Trash Machine joke again. First of all, the trash machine becomes a decently important part of the game durijg Queen's Mansion. Second, the vessel creation sequences is rife with so many Gaster connections that for it to be more obvious the voice would have to tell you "I'm Gaster". You can't claim it's all juat a joke.

[@jargalo0098]

I'm willing to concede the possibility, but I think there is some counterevidence you're undervaluing. I may be wrong, but it seems to me like the entirety of the time we are in Castle Town is also time in which the fountain could've been opened and the knight fled - counting on Ralsei being preoccupied with his friends and not noticing the other fountain. My bigger qualm is with your point on what most players immediately assume - we've already seen Toby flip our expectations after a seemingly massive end-of-chapter reveal. Making big assumptions like that Kris is the knight because we see them open a fountain sets the stage for a more impactful knight reveal later or an alternate explanation for Kris's actions. I can say that you have shaken up my assumptions, though! I feel like I understand even less now - we can only hope some of the confusion/inconsistency around dark worlds is cleared up in later chapters. (Also, I feel like you dismiss Alvin too quickly here - there's some interesting potential motivations for him involving Gerson)

[@8-BallBlues]

24:48 There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Papyrus “Just wants to have a fun time” We know next to nothing about him in Deltarune, let alone enough to come to that conclusion. All in all though, excellent video!

[@blackbloom8552]

Deltarune does not completely flip around the personality of established characters, thats already enough to discard the idea that papyrus would have an evil motive. Otherwise, i would agree that "wants to have fun" is very reductive and his actual motive would be a bit more complex if he did happen to be the knight.

[@TheShowCrow_Main_Channel]

For the sake of argument, if Kris were the knight, I’d say their motives behind seemingly having prepared for the end of chapter 2 fountain ahead of time by plugging the TV in between chapters etc. would have to be tied to the off-screen conversations they have with ralsei. Obviously, because that could help tie together the plot threads of why both Ralsei and Kris are acting so strange, and also give us an explanation for why ralsei has conversations with them that he seems to be deliberately keeping from the player. But also it seems like ralsei is the most likely candidate kris would even have as a source for getting such specific information about the future. Ralsei seems to know a lot more than he lets on, and also knows the prophesy, so saying he knows enough about the future to provide Kris with specific instructions towards some greater purpose, wouldn’t be nearly as much of a stretch to say as most other characters.

[@TheShowCrow_Main_Channel]

That’s not to say that would mean Ralsei ACTUALLY wants the roaring to happen, (he clearly seemed to panic when berdly nearly caused it in chapter 2) only that Ralsei might be doing his best to orchestrate some events to happen in specific ways for some greater reason or other.

[@thisisasupersayin376]

My dude, when people say Kris tells Undyne about the dark world, they're talking about the chapter 1 decisions made on a start-from-chapter-2 save file. They literally tell her entirely without us if they can.

[@gonerdenji]

I'm biggest denier of Kris knight BUT seriously some proof that Kris is not the knight aren't really very strong and the worst thing is that many people use those weak proof when there are more interesting proof

[@Quinhala11]

Again, your argument of "Even though there's evidence agaisnt a theory it doesn't matter because.." still feels rather arrogant. Cause there's not even a pattern to it, it's just "whatever goes agaisnt what i think has to not have been well-thought out, but what supports it matters very much".

[@darthvaderreviews6926]

Re. How Dark Worlds and time work, I think Spamton's Sweepstakes info is the biggest example of the paradox being brought to our attention. Spamton was apparently grateful for Noelle taking the time to read his spam email, and so sent her a pipis file to use in her virtual pet game. The thing is, Spamton probably hasn't _actually_ sent spam emails to the light world, because he _IS_ spam emails, a series of printouts thrown in the trash bin. Noelle likely wasn't reading emails Spamton wrote, but actual parts of Spamton's being before Spamton was "created". But then, _before Spamton is brought to life by a Fountain,_ Spamton does something essentially supernatural via the Pipis. Future chapters will be necessary to clarify how all this works, but my very best guess: -Darkners and their dark worlds _do not properly exist_ without "darkness" as a force. Without it, they are just inert Light World objects. -When a Darkner is formed via darkness, they remember their Light World history pretty well, at least through the flawed perspective of their Light World counterpart. *Essentially, their and their world's history is retroactively created in the moment they are created, based on how their light world object has been treated.* -Dark Fountains are not the only exclusive source of darkness, just an extremely strong source. There will always be "dark" corners of the world where Darkners, albeit briefly, exist and can even exert influence on the light world or each other, and this is the source of strange phenomena in Deltarune or why Spamton can know Mike, despite Mike's dark world presumably not existing yet. -Dark Worlds are nevertheless important for Darkners, because they allow the opportunity of Lightner interaction and most importantly personal continuity/agency. Spamton could never take his NEO body before because he didn't consistently exist for long enough in a coherent space with the NEO body. Thanks to the Cyber World's creation, Spamton got that opportunity. Not perfect, but I think this explanation rationalises Darkner behaviour decently well.

[@DandyDevil1806]

I just want to thank you for analyzing how narratively something would affect deltarune. Most theorists fail to understand that Toby Fox isn't just making the story fit the game, he's also making the game fit the story. It's easier to imagine Toby pulling a crazy stunt to make something thematically work then logistically work.

[@GameJam230]

The question I have is, is the knight only ONE person? Or, like Lightner, Darkner, Human, or Monster, is it actually just a title for someone who creates a dark fountain? This would be an important question to consider going in to Chapter 3, ESPECIALLY if they refer to their dark world as being created by "The Knight". It would now no longer confirm that Kris is the very same person who opened the OTHER dark worlds, but would mislead us into BELIEVING so. The question is, if Toby were to do this, what narrative purpose would it serve to continue leaving us questioning the identity of who opened the original fountains?

[@thatguyyoumightfindatthest9807]

So hear me out. Regardless of WHO is the Knight, I like to think the Knight may actually be a GOOD guy. Let me explain. If there has to be a balance between light and dark, a common theme in Deltarune, then perhaps the Knight isn't using these portals to summon Titans, but is instead trying to create a home for fellow Darkners. And added to this is that the Knight likely doesn't know the same stuff as Ralsei who, bear in mind, is currently the only person who really knows the danger of the fountains. The Knight is likely portrayed as a giver of life to the Darkners, and a being who seeks to establish a proper balance. After all, it can't be that one single Dark Fountain is enough to balance ALL the light available

[@ZodiaXmasteR794]

thank you, everybody just assumes that The Knight is an evil being but I think it would be interesting if they are actually a good guy in the end. ...So I'd like to propose one thing that might allude to The Knight possibly being a sympathetic character in the end (even if not outright a GOOD guy...), It's this song in particular: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJPcZ5KMapx5b6c&ab_channel=CloffDot So what's interesting is that this music is pretty much slowed down version of Nightmare Knight with the title 'Friendship' (Toby's fan song for a character named Nightmare Knight in Cucumber Quest. But he's notorious for reusing his old melodies for his games. And the motif has been used in Deltarune quite a lot, particularly in relation to Dark World. And there are lots of people speculating that it will be reused as The Knight's theme in the game.) Also something to note about the Nightmare Knight in the comic: While he may seem like an evil warlord bent on dominating the world, he’s really just an old man who’s tired of wanting to rule the world. He cares a lot about his minions and rarely resorts to violence. (Really makes me think that Toby either took some inspiration from this character, or he already concepted the Knight character long before it and thinks they are both similar)

[@ic0nic707]

The fact that they call themselves “The Roaring Knight”, naming themselves after the literal apocalypse, is incredibly suspicious though.

[@skyrimlover777]

I think what happened with Birdley and Noelle is similar to how Kris and Susie first entered a dark world. There was a small period before they fell in. Birdley and Noelle went in, it was dark, they put their books down and try to find a lightswitch and then they finally fall in. Just like Kris and Susie in the closet.

[@alexknj1]

I don't find the Sweet Cap'n Cakes really compelling, it comes off to me more as part of the Last Thursdayisims. Even if we know how time works onbthe Dark Worlds, (we don't for sure, it could be the player that causes time to sync,) that doesn't mean time has had to pass since the creation of the fountains. Those three were spontaneously created as a group of rebels who knew that the queen used to be different. They don't quality how long shes been different, because she has always been driven by the Knight, and they just remember her being different only in their heads, no actual time passed.

[@ethanvoyles7985]

Has nobody thought of the possibility that the closet is the queen’s mansion and the “large person could fit inside of here” that is mentioned is a representation of the giga queen robot?

[@saurie7861]

Hm, I don't think that Kris is THE Knight, but I think there's a high chance that Kris might be working with the actual Knight. Possible motives related to the soul/Dess. Would be interesting.

[@qwertious]

One more thing about the books. We know from chapter one that when someone enters a dark world it can take some time for them to "fall" into it. Maybe it took a while, Noelle and Berdly put their books down, and then fell. Not saying Kris is the knight though, because someone who was involved with the dark world still had to shut the closet door

[@TrixyTrixter]

This is my explanation for it. Noelle walked over and put the books onto the table while Beardly looked for a light switch. At some time the door shuts as the dark world takes full form and everything falls away into it.

[@Autumn_Actually]

It always irked me people ignore Kris Knight theory because it's pretty clear that's at least what the story wants us to assume. It's pretty wild to just throw it out because "it'd be too obvious" etc.

[@salemmarz3809]

i dont think the story wants us to think that, i feel like people just kind of went “oh but its a knight!!! and kris is technically in knight armor!!!” like…. ok…

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

@@salemmarz3809 I mean Kris also made the Ch.3 Fountain with the same tool Queen showed the Knight using to make the Ch.2 Fountain; not to mention the Ch.1 cliffhanger having them act suspicious before cutting over a period of time when Kris could've made the Lab Fountain. Poke holes in that if you like, provide counter theories about how the Lab Fountain was minutes old when we found it if it suits you. But the story definitely wants us to _think_ Kris is the Knight; that much is pretty undeniable.

[@zeo4481]

The one Toby is trying to specifically point to as the ,, Knight " in Ch2 is Kris. No ,, regular" not completely obsessed DR fan like us would think otherwise. 10:00 My explanation is a lot simpler than yours . Why does it matter where Noelle and Birdly are positioned? When we enter Ch1ns Dark WorldS we dont end up in the same room we entered them in , so your end position has nothing to do whit when a Dark World was created, so Kris could and DID absolutely open the Librarbys Dark World in Ch2. They also ate pie and turned on the TV in the living room the same night preparing for the next day almost as if they knew how it will all play out as if they have done it before....

[@EpicFailureFive]

There are two dark fountains in two rooms connected to one another in chapter 1. Kris and Susie went from one dark fountain influenced room to another by going through the great door. Ralsei closed this door so they couldn't possibly appear back in the supply closet. So them appearing in the abandoned classroom doesn't debunk the idea of your position mattering. In fact, they stumble around in the dark to turn the lights on before we see them. We don't actually know where they were when the Card Kingdom fountain was sealed.

[@zeo4481]

@@EpicFailureFive Exactly that. Perhaps i didn't phrase it correctly but moving in the Dark World does change their position in the Light World so Noelle and Birdly waking up at the table has nothing to do whit them being there at the fountains creation. They were probably curious about it and fell into it like we did in ch 1. The only thing that could potentially debunk me is that the door in Ch 1 did appear to be closed from outside and i don't know who could have done that except someone that's not Kris but that could be Toby fox just forcing the adventure rather than any deeper plot conspiracy.

[@orangeaurora]

people are always "how are noelle and berdly at the table?" my brother in christ KRIS AND SUSIE ARE ALSO AT THE TABLE

[@EpicFailureFive]

@@orangeaurora They aren't, though. They're standing up at the end of the table where the door is. As if they had just walked up to the table from the doorway.

[@DailyDeltaNews]

just a small counter argument to the timeline part. the knight could have already been in the computer lab, making a new fountain. they could have not known berdly or noelle would show up, nor kris and susie, just like how they didn't know for certain kris and susie would show up in chapter 1, or at least it doesn't seem like it. perhaps they had just made the fountain when berdly and noelle walked in, and they quickly hid in the closet, shut the door, or both. ive never thought the timeline was a great piece of evidence for kris not being the knight though, lol OH! also, i think ralsei just straight up knows when we enter, as he was waiting for us with robe and everything in chapter 1, which would be weird if he didn't somehow know we were there. this could be why he only felt the presence once we showed up there? not provable or anything, just a thought i had.

[@Nightmarebros]

Well, I can at least appreciate the attempt to counter balance more established theories, even if some of the explanations can be countered - For example, The Queen interaction? We know Dark Worlds are funky, but your assertion that it blows open the timeline due to IRL Light World stuff doesn't hold, on the grounds that in the Light World, Queen is a LAPTOP - Both Berdly and Noelle leave with their stuff after Chapter 2 is over and leave Queen behind for Kris to take to the closet Castle Town. Ergo, it's more logical the Laptop was in possession of the Knight: they are the only ones who could have set up the laptop to record themselves opening a Dark Fountain, after all - Noelle and Berdly had no reason to touch it since the internet was out. Could Kris have set it up beforehand? Maybe, but that'd mean they'd have had to have planned for the Traffic Jam to happen via SAVE/LOAD abuse, not to mention NOBODY ELSE going to the Library AT ALL past midnight or so. That creates MORE Timeline complications than it actually solves. And then there's the point about the Knight being seen because they're trapped by the traffic. This IS TRUE - they WOULD be seen leaving the Library. However, there's also the 2nd floor of the Library: All The Knight HAS to do, is wait up there and read books untill Undyne clears the traffic jam, and THEN just... walk out, it's not like anybody is going to pay special attention to them, and they can just come back later for the Laptop they left behind during the rush hour... to find it's gone, since Kris stole it. THIS, in my view, is another reason why Kris is opening the Dark World for Chapter 3 regardless of Snowgrave choices, ESPECIALLY if we REALLY consider the Knight's viewpoint: in Chapter 1, the Knight opened a Dark Fountain in a unused classroom in the school, possibly to test if it was even possible to begin with, which was then closed by SOMEONE (from the Knight's point of view, if they ever knew about it being closed). In Chapter 2, the Fountain was opened as an experiment - This explains the weird setups in the room, from "why was the laptop recording evidence that could be used against the knight" and "why were Noelle and Berdly in the room and sitting down like nothing was wrong": These factors could be planned around and controlled. The traffic jam WASN'T in the plan, since it created a locked-room mystery where their own movements were limited, the Knight's 2nd fountain ended up sealed in a way that couldn't be easily observed without exposing themselves, and their laptop footage was stolen by SOMEONE. From this point, the Knight SHOULD be targeting either Noelle or Berdly - they were the only 2 people who were 100% there at the time and were the focus of the experiment. In Snowgrave, ONLY Noelle is left alive, so basically it's 100% confirmed the Knight would have Noelle in their crosshairs as their first go-to target.... right up untill Chapter 3, where a Dark World opening in the Dreemurr's House suddenly creates a new suspect for the stolen laptop - that weird kid, Kris. Kris is the son of the ex-chief of police, and has Toriel for his mom, and the 2 cops in town would be there investigating the slashed tires, so The Knight CAN'T investigate what happened without a VERY GOOD excuse to do so - They'd need an absolute concrete reason to come inside the house, and to search the place for the missing Laptop would be EXTREMELY difficult if not nigh-impossible, but so long as there is enough evidence of a Dark World appearing in the living room, the Knight can conclude SOMEONE in the Dreemurr house has at least SEEN the footage of the Chapter 2's Dark World opening, and replicated it - going forward with the Dark Worlds plan will be MUCH tougher for The Knight, just from the police fallout alone.

[@godslaughter]

It makes me think that the Dark Worlds' histories are sorta based on the concept of fiction and how we can create overaching plots, characters and their histories on the spot if we're gonna roleplay. Also, it's important to note (if I am remembering correctly) is that Undyne asks whether there's anything to report on, and one of the prompts is just "Dark Worlds". I suppose the previous question about reporting would then prompt Kris to talk about the dangers if the player chose so, but it did severely throw me off when I just wanted to discuss Dark Worlds with Undyne and Kris went on a huge tangent about the end of the world and fountains. When it comes to Noelle and Birdley waking up at the desk, that is somewhat irrelevant if we know that when you move in the Dark World, you still move spatially, hence the reason why Kris and Susie ended up in the adjacent room in chapter 1. The fact that so many people are missing the fact that the big door is the door of the classroom connecting the closet with it is really baffling to me, as it clearly shows the exact but simplified path of where the Heroes traveled. Neither Susie or Kris ended up at the door when the fountain was closed, they were also at the desk but, after having experienced that the day prior, they at least knew what was going to happen, leaving them more prepared for it than Noelle or Birdley. While the comment about a relatively large person fitting inside the closet is ominously specific, as that's something I never would have thought about a freaking closet holding the server tech, it might or might not be related to what we are thinking of. Perhaps the Knight was hiding in there, perhaps slightly more time had passed between Kris and Susie meeting Noelle and them going to the librarby as they went into the Dark World and then came out, but also perhaps not. Maybe they just appeared at the desk because that's where the fountain led them to and that's where the fountain was opened idk the day prior? However, Ralsey not "sensing a dark presence" while Susie and Kris were in Castletown is very strange to me if the Cyberworld had already existed at that point. Unless Ralsey is lying and is saying that to try and fool either Susie, Kris or maybe even US. I'm actually pretty convinced that it might be us. Another thing: I do believe that Dark Worlds themselves exist before the fountain is open because the fountain is that sort of bridge between Light and Dark, allowing the "real world" to interact with the "fantasy world". The reason why Queen and King and all the other Darkners have history is because their objects have it. They experience the "real world", then the Darkness gives the Lightners to interact with them directly and learn about their history. We know the computer lab was see-through the evening before because Toby was basically in there, doing maraca stuff. I do find it odd that no one else would have fallen into the Cyberworld since the night before if you have people managing the place. Granted, I am also baffled that no one fell into it during chapter 2's adventure, but that's a different can of worms. All in all, this character development of Queen might be conjured up on the spot simply because of the nature of roleplaying and telling a story. Someone gets an idea - BAM, that's the history. All in all, as it stands, I think that no matter the amount of theorising, the chances of Kris being or not being the Knight are sorta 50:50. It's just that convoluted and we do not have enough evidence to prove or disprove. I personally would love so much if Kris wasn't the hero that we had been told, but is genuinely a character - a person - with their own ideas, plans and desires. I am almost fully convinced that Kris has some sort of ulterior motive that we do not know of yet, but how much is there about them wanting to do it vs Toby, as the god, wanting to tell a story is very difficult to say. I think we shouldn't ignore the fact that there is a possibility that Toby himself telling this story might be canon on its own. The act of making the game and telling the story, that is. I would personally adore if the ending was so mind-blowing that it doesn't matter whether we wanted that outcome or not, I'm here for the journey and the incredible end. Maybe there will be three forces trying to get different endings (Kris, Ralsey and his prophecy, and Toby) or maybe even four (Kris, Ralsey, Toby and Gaster?) If something completely deranged like not being able to open the save or the characters taking control over their world (save) is in store, I'll be there for it. I like breaking the 4th wall and I'm ready to break the 6th if I need to. This is Toby's story to tell and it might end up being fully insane. I like that.

[@Data-Expungeded]

about the Kris warning Undyne thing. If you skip too chapter 2 Kris makes sure to warn Undyne anyway. DEBUNKED

[@gingergingey8271]

those times where Kris warns Undyne are forced onto Kris by the player.

[@Missingno_Miner]

Some things to note: -When the Knight is referred to with any pronouns at all(Mostly by Queen), it is referred to with it/its, rather than with singular they. -The King of Spades does express familiarity with the Knight, referring to it as "his" knight. He shows a lot more familiarity with it than Queen, and appears to be fanatically loyal to it, willing to fight to the death for it. This is pretty important, since he explicitly hates all other Lightners and has ever since the classroom was abandoned. With Seam describing how the Knight appeared and then the three other kings were locked away all in once sentence, those two things are clearly directly connected, implying that the way the Knight earned King's loyalty was helping him overthrow his counterparts. This doesn't change the fact that Knight!Kris could have and likely was dressed quite differently, and there are plenty of other explanations: perhaps Kris' drastically different behavior or the fact that humans are considerably less diverse in terms of appearance than monsters or darkners threw him off(making him assume that while Kris looked similar, they couldn't actually be the same person), or perhaps he was simply pretending not to recognize them. -While it's true that Kris opening the fountain isn't enough evidence to prove things one way or the other, it does clearly move them into the position of top suspect since it shows that they have motives to open them despite knowing perfectly well how dangerous it is(If they aren't the Knight, this may actually make them worse than the Knight, who may not be aware of the Roaring's apocalyptic nature.), and that they will do so even if it means putting their own mother in direct danger of more immediate harm. -I have a rather different take on the third bit of "evidence". I think it's worth noting, first and foremost, the obvious fact that it's completely irrelevant to Kris being the Knight, since it says absolutely nothing about their motives for opening the fountain. They clearly aren't doing it to prove to Undyne that the dark world exists, or they would have done it at the police station, keeping their mother out of direct danger and guaranteeing that Undyne would be in the dark world eventually. Plus, Kris tell her about them in chapter 1, too, yet there's not even an option to suggest bringing Undyne into the library to prove to her that there's a dark world, despite her being literally just outside. Furthermore, as someone who firmly disbelieves Player theory(The theory that the player exists as a canon entity and is directly "possessing" Kris, exerting an utterly inconsistent amount of control over their body which they actively don't seek help with(even when we are supposedly forcing them to literally torment and attack their friends) despite being able to break that control at will(supposedly just by removing their SOUL, yet they somehow also do exactly that without removing it).), I would like to draw attention to the further contrast this creates between what Kris does with and without their SOUL: With the SOUL, they seem genuinely concerned for the safety of the world and tend to try to draw the attention of people with power to it. Undyne, the former Kings, they even show interest in speaking to the mayor when in the town hall. Since the latter two occur without any kind of player input beyond talking to the right NPCs, there's absolutely no room for player theorists to argue that this isn't Kris themself choosing to say this. But the moment they've removed their SOUL, they are opening fountains regardless. One of many reasons I don't believe player theory: The theory's usual explanation of Kris' nighttime shenanigans is that this is supposedly them out of our control, acting exclusively of their own free will, but this clear difference in behavior(Specifically in how their words with the SOUL contradict their actions without it. This contradiction is another reason that the "Proving it to Undyne" justification falls flat.) combined with the nature of the SOUL itself(Being the culmination of Kris' being, the source of their will and compassion, the very thing that makes Kris, Kris.) contradicts that. Add in the weird zombie movement that notably does not occur when they move without player input with their SOUL in them and Seam's ominous warning about being caught when the sun goes down(as if this is something Kris should fear), and there's definitely far more evidence to suggest that this is something else taking control of Kris rather than them breaking free and acting of their own accord. I certainly don't see any realistic way that player theory and Kris not being, to some extent, evil, are at all compatible, and attempts to justify the bad things they do at these times just feel like people trying to have their cake and eat it too. Comment continued in reply since it is exceeds youtube's character limit.

[@Missingno_Miner]

(Continued from main comment) -Queen states that the fountain was opened the same day in dark world time in her speech about the Knight. So yeah, she just "went into overdrive" real dang fast. Still way too little time for this shift in behavior to be noticed in. Presumably, the fountain was affecting her similarly to King, and clearly the effects kick in hard and fast. And Queen was likely in a bit of a spiral anyways since an NPC in the fields mentions how Queen had gotten more extreme since the town's internet went down. This doesn't disprove the point about SCC, nor does it matter since the supposed timeline is riddled with other holes anyways and is a blatant example of people starting with a conclusion and working backwards to cherry pick things to support it... which, unfortunately, is far too common in the UTDR fandom. -Elaborating on that last point: There are a ton of holes you didn't mention, such as the fact that things don't come out of the dark world where they went in. This is pretty obvious just from looking at people, Kris and Susie come out of the library dark world in a position that should be impossible if they jumped straight in: They're too far to the right, with Kris' back being in line with the wall rather than the door, and much further into the room than they should be. The books are on the table because they likely became the "editable cyberpedia" that can be found in the cyber fields, which are most likely said table, or perhaps simply because Berdly and Noelle entered with them. Furthermore, this would greatly undermine the Knight's competence, as it has literally nothing to gain by opening fountains in broad daylight or by waiting for people to enter the room(This would actively hurt its goal, giving the heroes potential allies to help them close the fountain. This is especially true of Noelle and Berdly, since if the Knight is aware of the Legend, it is probably smart enough to realize that Kris, as the only human in town, must be one of the heroes, and their classmates are even more likely to ally themselves with them in order to return home than most people.) and everything to lose if its caught. We know from Kris that opening a fountain is a loud, flashy, drawn-out process that creates a lot of smoke, which should have alerted Berdly and Noelle at some point: If nothing else, they should have noticed the smoke and left under the assumption of a fire. Finally, there's quite literally no realistic way that it could have escaped the library completely unnoticed. Even if it somehow got out of the library unnoticed, Undyne was right outside and would be more than willing to drop her car and chase any suspicious, clearly fleeing individual, but she doesn't so much as comment on seeing anyone leave the library. Finally, with the traffic jam caused by the Annoying Dog present, the only way the Knight could have fled is towards the school(Unless the Annoying Dog is the Knight. There's some evidence to suggest that this is possible, but not enough for it to be anything more than a meme theory.), yet we don't see a single person along the way. -About the Ralsei point: My interpretation has always been that him sensing it has something to do with Kris and Susie's arrival. It seems rather fitting that Ralsei would have some connection to his fellow heroes that would allow him to sense a dark world they are in, and I would argue that it is far more likely than the fountain just having been opened or him just happening to sense it now by complete coincidence. -The idea of Kris planning everything in advance falls flat as early as chapter 1. They couldn't have planned Susie stealing the chalk, Noelle suggesting the supply closet and suggesting that she go with Susie, or Alphys sending Kris with her instead. Furthermore, they don't seem to have been aware of the existence of Castle Town, and definitely haven't met Ralsei, so that couldn't have been planned. It falls flat again in chapter 2, where Noelle is the one to initially ask Kris to come to the library with Susie so that the four of them can work on their group projects together. Ralsei then kicks them out of Castle Town, demanding that they go work on their project, so taking Noelle's suggestion just makes sense. There are far too many variables that Kris could not possibly have predicted with such accuracy. This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I said that player theorists who try to justify Kris' actions to avoid making them evil come across as trying to have their cake and eat it too. -Gaster, or whoever else it might be, does not appear to have inserted us anywhere(Obviously I will be humouring player theory for the sake of argument here). "Gaster" clearly wanted to use the Goner "vessel", or he wouldn't have bothered with that. The person who "inserts us" is someone else entirely, as evidenced by the cut to black and drastic change in speech patterns(Interestingly, the Japanese version bears a resemblance to Chara's speech, which is rather distinct in Japanese, but there isn't enough to confirm that it's them and it's impossible to say what the implications are if it is indeed them.). There is some implied conflict between "Gaster" and this second speaker, as they deliberately disrupt what "Gaster" is doing.

[@okeyd0kis443]

Holy shit. Someone else who doesn't believe in "Player" Theory and acknowledge the credibility of "Kris is possessed by someone else" Theory?? If this is on any other social platform such as twitter or reddit people will be flocking to roast you lol. That's like... the 2 worst theories according to the fandom. That said, I mostly agree with everything you write here. There are a lot of good points in it. I'm actually really surprised how much your commentaries are similar with my own view of the game itself. I usually see people believe in either Third Entity or the "Player is not literally us" Theory but never both. The way that Kris just seem to have some sort of personality 'conflict' always drive me mad, why don't people notice that they sometimes act OOC? Like the way they desperately told Undyne about the fountain (only to open said fountain in their own house out of all place) and how they seem to have certain knowledge to have planned everything, but at the same time acts like a 'weenie' by backing out of the Dark World closet as if it's the first time they see it. But regardless I'm not sure about the whole creating fountain equals being "evil" here. I mean yeah, it's clearly framed as something malicious in the game, but I'm guessing there's more than meets the eye here. I mean the entire process felt pretty half assed to me, why does the Knight wait for Kris and co. to close one fountain to open up the next? If what they tried to do is to bring The Roaring they could just simultaneously open it up somewhere? (Not to mention how strange that Ralsei never really acknowledge the Knight as their primary antagonist for opening the fountains, and he's in a role that should be opposed to The Knight) Also noticed a trend where people simply dismiss/disagree with the possession theory because "it will be boring/uninteresting to have random villain possessing Kris" or it will "undermine Kris' own character". This, I can totally see why they think so. because most people with "Possessed Kris" Theory thinks that the entity is a one-dimensional villain who's behind everything and trying to possess them. But this is where I differ despite believing in the theory. This is still a speculation, but hear me out; What if Kris' mysterious possessor is not a one-dimensional evil character? But a character with their own backstory who will be revealed to be as important as Kris themself? (shocking really, but Toby's writing thrive on subverting expectation, wouldn't put it past him to make The Knight or The Possessor as a sympathetic character) And might have possessed them wayyy before we even play the game itself? If they are an evil entity, why don't Kris call for anybody's help? Didn't notice any sort of uneasiness from their tone in the game either... (Also need to remind ppl that possession with the MC isn't exactly a new thing in Toby-verse games: Frisk/Chara in Undertale has the exact dynamic where it's not really clear who's who at times. Perhaps Toby wants to further explore the similar kind of dynamic with Kris and their possessor here? I mean we already have too many parallels with Kris and both of these kids here anyways... and people always questioned why Kris looks like the fusion of both of these kids down to the personalities/skin color and choice of clothing)

[@Missingno_Miner]

@@okeyd0kis443 Yeah, not believing certain bits of fanon does seem to result in one being called ableist slurs rather often, especially on the subreddit. It's truly a shame that this fandom has such a problem with ableism(and more bafflingly, transphobia as well, player theorists, oddly, seem to disproportionately insist on misgendering Kris, although thankfully haven't been seeing much of that in this particular comment section.) I object to the name "third entity theory", given how the "second" implied by that title is meant to be the player. Rather hard to have three entities when you aren't convinced the second exists to begin with, and certainly don't believe the premise that the name implies. It's nothing more than a sneaky way of lending further credibility to player theory without actually having to discuss it. Not even gonna pretend to humour the use of that name. It's framed as something apocalypse-inducing. You can't really get more malicious than opening a fountain right next to one's own mother(putting her in direct danger), with full knowledge of the potential consequences(And if Kris isn't the Knight, knowledge that someone else is going around opening even more, increasing the risk of apocalypse). At least with the Knight, we don't know for sure if it's aware of the apocalyptic nature of the Roaring. We don't know why the Knight waits. An potential explanation is that it may only be possible for one to open one fountain a day, although there's really no way of knowing until we have more information about the creation of fountains. Perhaps with Kris having created one, we will learn more in chapter 3. I don't really see Ralsei not directly mentioning the Knight would imply that it's not evil, given how Ralsei, as far as we know, doesn't know anything more about the Knight than we do. He's more concerned with the Legend and stopping the Roaring, so he's probably more concerned about the titans and this "Angel's Heaven" stuff. I don't see any contradiction between a character being sympathetic and objectively evil: Take Flowey, for instance. He's objectively, unapologetically evil(being, in essence, your typical RPG murderhobo), but still sympathetic and very complex. A character can be both obviously evil and complex. I think it's very possible that Kris isn't aware of their body being hijacked in this way, or to the extent that it's being hijacked(This force may be feigning cooperation to keep Kris quiet while taking advantage to do things to further its own agenda at the same time. This would explain the pie: It snuck out to open a fountain, and then ate the pie because that's what Kris wanted to do. The same thing might have happened with the sink incident, "Kris" snuck out to open what may become the chapter 4 fountain, and then slashed the tires to trick Toriel into inviting Susie to stay over at the same time since that's what Kris wanted. Essentially, preying on what Kris wants to get an opportunity to use them for what it wants.). Two out of the three times it's happened on screen, they had been asleep. The narrator seems fully aware of it, but the narrator isn't Kris, as while narration is consistently inconsistent in referring to Kris by name or in second person, the narrator never uses first person when describing Kris' actions. On the contrary, it's typically pretty clear when Frisk is acting on their own or when Chara is doing something, either from it occurring out of player control(such as the automatic attacks on Sans, Asgore, and Flowey in genocide), or from it being narrated. For instance, there are two versions of narration for opening books, one which explictly references Frisk opening the book, referring to them in second person as per usual, and one which is phrased as if the narrator is opening the book and handing it to Frisk, clearly intended to show Chara opening it for Frisk. For the most part, Chara lets Frisk do their own thing, even in the genocide route, for the simple reason that they view Frisk as a partner, a source of guidance, and even a friend(As they state in the genocide route. It can be assumed this applies even more to the pacifist route). It's also worth noting the contrast here. In Undertale, Chara's conciousness was somehow awakened to share Frisk's body. They were sharing Frisk's mind, body, SOUL, and they even share their respective SAVE files. Here, whatever's making Kris do this seems unable to do much without first evicting Kris' SOUL, removing everything that makes them who they are. Very much a matter of control compared to Chara and Frisk's cooperation.

[@MorkerBob]

@@okeyd0kis443 kris IS controlled by a player.

[@okeyd0kis443]

@@MorkerBob ​ Yeah they are controlled by us, but what or who is "a Player" exactly? The only thing we are shown is that we are playing as "The Soul" who is a separate entity from Kris. Sure, you can call it's "The Player" or whatever but I stand on my believe that the soul exists strictly in universe. And there will be some sort of reveal that gives us some more context on who The Soul actually is. And they will be as much a character as Kris and their friends. It's also explicitly called a "Human Soul" and not some eldritch entity, not that it matter much now but that's really all we know for The Soul's identity. And yes, you are naming the soul when asked to enter "Your Own Name", but it's not explicitly US, the one who are sitting in front of the keyboard. Undertale tricks us that we are giving our own name when it's later revealed to be the name of the First fallen child. We are giving "Chara" our own name. What IF Deltarune do the similar thing here? Temmie (co-creator/artist of UT) have explicitly said that in UT we are meant to be Chara. You ARE Chara. Not some separate Entity called The Player: web.archive.org/web/20161113154609/twitter.com/RubberNinja/status/687592682953125888 Why do we need to kill her? not just because we "want to", but it's because in the game we are playing as "Chara" It's a Role Playing Game after all. (Yeah, you can say tweets are not canon or whatever. But anything that the game'creator says is infinitely more canon than anything we say) As of now, the theory that Player existing in Deltarune universe is still a theory. A popular one, but still doesn't make it "canon" and is a big misconception in the fandom.

[@ic0nic707]

31:28 Didn't Noelle ask Kris to recommend going to the library to Susie? Also I can't help but notice you never mentioned the computer lab closet dialogue that mentions a large person could easily fit inside, that's pretty common evidence used against Kris not being the knight.

[@KyrieFortune]

Many people mistakenly think it's a haunting observation after a Snowgrave route... except that line is present regardless of the Snowgrave. Yeah, I think the "large enough to fit a person inside" may be a hint that someone had literally been hiding there, and of all the people who could have been there, Kris is the one we are SURE wasn't in the closet, and in fact it's the one we are sure did NOT open the library portal (if it had been opened right then) Or, the closet is just a closet, who knows, maybe we are all wrong and the knight is, idk, pizzapants or smth

[@NCSGaming15]

*C O U L D*

[@jargalo0098]

​@@KyrieFortune Also, y'know, Berdly isn't exactly a large person

[@ic0nic707]

@@NCSGaming15 yes, could. what's your point?

[@elio7610]

​@@KyrieFortune The fact that the text is present on both routes does not mean that is not only relevant for snowgrave, the text itself is only an observation about how much space is in the closet. Deltarune has a lot of odd flavor text, so it is not especially out of place.

[@MoRPho151]

Sometimes I find interesting that the fandom have theories and make accelerated conclusions and concensus about certain theories. Sometimes those conscensus are proved wrong (Like what happened to Mike and Tenna! Everybody assumed Mike was gong to be the main antagonist, and all the fanart featured its name before, but after the Sweeptstakes the name of Tenna popped up, a simple twitter response from "Spamtom" debunked that entire asumption). Suddenly, all the fandom erased Mike the tv and put Tenna instead. Similar to that situation, there is a somewhat consensus that the fountain was opened when Berdly and Noelle were already inside. I believed that before, but now that you mentioned that Queen has been going off the rails for a while (a few hours at least) I think you have right that the situation is doubtful. 1. Alphys mentioned the internet being gone since lastnight. 2. Toby Fox said in the live playthroug of DR chapter 01 that the dark fountains changed the attitude of the darkners that were close to them, making them bad and more evil. When the darkners mentioned that she has being acting crazier it is because someone opened a Fountain a few hours before, enough time for them to be able to make the robot. 3. Noelle and Berdly entering to a dark room is also very easy to explain. They maybe thought that the light was not on, or that the lightbulb didn´t worked and tried to look another source of light inside. There is no reason that they would suspect something was wrong. Where the evidence contradicts itself is when Noelle and Berdly remember being studying and falling sleep. And we don´t have the information of how much time we expent being in the dark world of Castle Town, so how much time is enough for Queen having made a disaster? How the time goes in the darkworlds?? At the end, I believe this is all intended in order to have a confusing escenario. Logic and coherence here are sacrifized in order to not be able to discern what happened, where both options are equally possible so we can´t guess. And I know that you know that Toby knows that people are going to analyze every bit of information piece by piece. This is more he putting a firewall in order to people not being able to guess easily what happened. The laws of the darkworlds could be not tied to our same space and time.

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

Do Noelle & Berdley remember falling asleep? I thought they just assumed they fell asleep because of Susie telling them it was all a dream combined with where they ended up as the Fountain closed. (I mean, it is pretty unlikely that those two actually fell asleep minutes into a study session. I know Berdley puts Kris to sleep but I don't think he'd do the same to himself.)

[@MoRPho151]

@@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg Is a very good question! Since Kris and Susie were very aware of entering a big black hole in a room in the first chapter I assumed that they remembered at least being studying before. But it is very plausible that in a weird scenario like that they were confused and assumed none of that was real and that they were dreaming.

[@DarkFoxKit]

I like the idea that Kris is the knight, and I want to see where this will go. Also, I appreciate you sticking up for the players here, since it feels like we're the bad guys for just playing the game. None of us asked to possess someone else after all, in fact, sometimes I just stop moving Kris to see if they'll move on their own if I wasn't controlling them, but of course, nothing happens if I don't do anything. So this whole theory that it was Kris who summoned us would make more sense, and make us believe Kris is the antagonist makes it so much more interesting than if some other person turned out to be the knight.

[@koxbalon]

Plot twist: Lancer is the knight literally first thing he says is "I'm the bad guy"

[@gingergingey8271]

"duh"

[@koxbalon]

@@gingergingey8271 hud

[@cy-bernet-ix]

while i dont personally believe Kris Knight, this is a very good video that i think highlights just how hard it is to make anything comprehensive at this point in Deltarunes progression

[@gonerdenji]

I have a question Why does the queen know about the knight's nickname?(ROARING knight) Like you said, she didn't met the knight and we know that she didn't knew about the ROARING but somehow she knows about the nickname ROARING knight What are her source?

[@fantasticgood5403]

She made it the f**k up

[@elio7610]

I guess she has internet access.

[@gonerdenji]

@@elio7610 nope There is no internet in hometown at the moment An NPC said that Queen don't have anymore access to Internet and actually Alphys even mention that if you talk with her in the beginning of chapter 2

[@gingergingey8271]

@@gonerdenji HER SOURCE IS THAT SHE MADE IT THE (HYPERLINK BLOCKED" UP!

[@rasati]

it feels like fans are reading too deep into it kris does something with a knife in chapter 1, we dont know what it is kris opens a dark world with said knife in chapter 2 feels like toby is trying to tell us kris opens dark worlds often and probably did it the day before kris is the only main character in knight armor kris (specifically kris and not you) has a save file in the dark world since before chapter 1 AND between chapters 1 and 2

[@Double___]

Yeah exactly, sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one. If the knight is NOT Kris then it'll be a subversion and a plot twist, but Kris is definitely most likely to be the Knight right now.

[@Steelhyperknight]

With the evidence shown i still think tilts into kris not being the knight, but like you said its not debunked. Narratively though Kris is a great canadate for being the knight. I really liked your idea of kris being the knight us being against kris who knows the future. To be honest it wound like it would fit perfectly into a JaruJaruJ video if oberon smog wasnt the knight canidate for his series. Especially with kris knowing the future, since the timeloop.

[@TrixyTrixter]

Jaru does have a problem in refusing any interpretation of evidence that might make his prefered idea wrong. So I would not take his theories as at all usefull honestly.

[@birdcar7808]

I agree with a lot of your points, particularly that it’s not debunked that Kris is the Knoght. However your point around 29:00 relating to the Kris vs Player conflict is questionable imo. The thing is, the player IS choosing to posses Kris against their will by playing the game. There is a similar concept in Undertale where Flowey asks the player to not restart the game after getting the good ending, because that would be the player choosing to put the characters through pain once again for personal benefit. So the player living through Kris when it’s heavily implied Kris does not like it (not sure how to interpret the hostility with which they treat the SOUL at the end of ch 1) is another example of us putting a character through pain for our personal gain. However, I agree that it would be surprising if we end up as the unambiguous villain of the story - although I disagree that the Knight, regardless of whether or not they are Kris, will be the unambiguous villain as well.

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

The thing is though, in that example from Undertale, you knowingly make the decision to hurt a lot of people you presumably care about to start a new game after the golden ending. Whereas we posses Kris by way of...playing the game. That's not really a moral choice, certainly not a knowing one, it's just a thing that happened outside of our control. And it's not exactly established that Kris'd get to go on with their life if we stopped playing either. So it feels a bit different, to put simply. Anyway I agree Kris, or whoever the Knights ends up being, won't be an unambiguous villain. But I do think they may be presented as such to us at some point in the story, even if they are Kris, and I think that's what the video was getting at. Asriel wasn't an Unambiguous villain either, but there were certainly a few points were were made to think he was.

[@henrycgs]

Honestly, I think Toby intended for it to be very obvious that Kris is the Knight. The ending of chapter 2 was the final reveal. What did you think Kris do at the end of Chapter 1? Look menancingly at the camera for no reason? Of course not, he went to the library and opened the fountain. Thinking that the identity of the knight is the big reveal is really narrow minded. It's a mistery to the characters, not to us. You guys are underestimating toby's storytelling.

[@VelvetIcematoro]

Tales of the Abyss spoilers below, read at your own risk. The following was very much intended as a plot twist, and it was revealed early on in the story, that is to say, the point of a plot twist is not to come by the end and shock you, but mark a before and an after, and kickstart new directions for the plot and character development. I definitely did not make justice to the plot threads, so if you have any interest at all in the "Tales of" series, I very much recommend playing/watching playthroughs of this one before reading! Tales of the Abyss tells the story of a rich kid called Luke Fon Fabre, heir to a rich family with a past uncertain to him. At first it would seem he has a bit of an attitude problem that, if we are to believe those who claim to know him, was very much out of character for him. A couple years in the past he was kidnapped, when he was finally rescued he had no recollections of his past, but there was no doubt in everyone's mind that the amnesiac youth was the kidnapped Luke, and attributed the radical change in personality as a combination of his Trauma and Amnesia. Back in the game, halfway through the story it is revealed that who we had thought to be Luke Fon Fabre, the character we had been controlling all along, was actually a clone of the real Luke created in the span of time it took for the kidnapped heir to be found and rescued. Suddenly everything made sense, our Luke wasn't amnesiac, he had no past to remember. His family and friends weren't wrong about his change of attitude, they were wrong about who he was to begin with. This information serves as the starting point to our protagonist's journey of discovery and humbling of character, informing his actions past and going forward.

[@ZodiaXmasteR794]

Random but It's funny that I got reminded of this game after a long while because of that "Bump of Chicken" narration in Berdly car bump scene lol. (fyi the band is the one who performs for that game's opening in the Japanese version, and actually the first music which introduced me to it. The random Jpop reference is interesting tho, perhaps Toby is also a fan of the band?) Anyways, the bit about TotA's twist really makes me think though; like people generally thinks that the Red Soul is straight up the player. But this SOUL (which fyi, weirdly enough has been explicitly stated by Ralsei and implied by Spamton to be Kris's own SOUL. Culmination of Kris's Own Being. Heart on a chain.), somehow made Kris unable to play piano, become more talkative, and selectively amnesiac on top of it (the part where Rudy comments on Kris forgetting their own handwriting. could it be that the one we're playing is actually Kris and there are times where they are straight up possessed by something else?) And a thing has always stood out to me: Why would "the player" be bad at piano. If we're going by the theory that the entity controlling Kris is literally the Player in lore. Aren't there many UT/DR players who can also play instruments? If Kris is able to defend Susie on their own and display their own autonomy time-to-time without any problem, why can't they do something as simple as playing piano? Why would they look at Piano Tutorials even though they are proficient at it? Of course everything above can be interpreted in a couple ways, like you can think that The Player forced Kris to look at the handwriting or maybe makes them more hesitant to play piano, etc. BUT my gut feeling is telling me that there's something else at play here... like, the biggest red flag that makes me suspicious is the fact that we get to choose a GONER vessel in the opening sequence. Why is this important? because 3 out of 5 characters that has its own GONER equivalent in Undertale are confirmed have near death experience in our timeline. It's also worth nothing that it's called a "Goner" in the first place (which means, quoting Oxford: "A person who is going to die soon or who cannot be saved from a dangerous situation.") (Does this means that we are actually playing as a "mysterious" Red Souled human who has been dead before we choose to play the game? It's interesting, and I have been thinking of this implication a lot...)

[@VelvetIcematoro]

@@ZodiaXmasteR794 Could be that we're not in full control, so doing more complex finger work, like Piano or Writting, is harder. Also, Kris specifically searches "VIDEOGAME Piano Tutoriel", figured that was a reference to Undertale's Piano puzzle, since it was a bit hard to grasp for some players.

[@Jordan67145]

I really like your more factual driven videos in contrast to all the crazy theories (looking at you Jaru) as enjoyable as they are. However, I have one major issue. If the fountain was indeed opened in the morning, or even the previous night, this would imply that nobody, not even the staff working in the library, entered the computer room or even opened the door leading to it. This is just absurd.

[@VulpineFox7]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of jaru's theories

[@TheSkyGuy77]

He writes fanfiction and passes it off as a ""theory"".

[@VulpineFox7]

@@TheSkyGuy77 that's a little harsh, but he definitely pulls a "the knight unmasked" often and jumps to some pretty outlandish theories. To this day, I only find one of his theories even plausible, and even then it's still tricky.

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

Is it that absurd though? The internet's also been down all day, and once someone confirmed that was also true for the Library using the front computer they'd have no reason to go into the computer room outside of using it to study after school. Especially if it's a slow day in a small town.

[@Missingno_Miner]

Why would they? The internet has been down for awhile, and the library seems to be run mostly by volunteers given how Berdly is literally the only person we've seen acting as staff.

[@zixvirzjghamn737]

15:13 This is based on the assumption of time working correctly in the dark world, which may be a reasonable assumption, however we haven’t gone a day WITHOUT a dark world, so we don’t have a ratio to compare them 25:10 That implies the knight knows about the roaring

[@dna4063]

I apologize before (if you mentioned in the video i dont know yet), but theres ONE line of dialogue that disproves Kris being the Knight completely, that being Spamton telling Kris about the Knight: -KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT… basically implying that knight is most likely a different person. Also Kris asking about the Knight in the first place is kinda strange considering Kris most likely not trying to expose himself(if he was the Knight that is)

[@JammyJam5588]

Ah yes Spamton the most reliable narrator ever Who didn't even know Kris doesn't have their own soul in their body. Or know that the NEO body wouldnt give him what he wanted.

[@bearturtle6058]

@@JammyJam5588 Don't give me that again. I saw so many people chalk up "Mike" to simply be a Mike Ditka reference or just another one of his crazy ramblings rather than hinting to a new character. But then the Spamton Sweepstakes came out. Both he and Jevil are insane. But they're among the most knowledgable darkners. The fact that Spamton knew how to get to some random seclued power armor hidden in a secret basement shows that.

[@ihaetschool3361]

he doesn't even know what the knight is. this doesn't mean a whole lot

[@gingergingey8271]

Kris asking about the knight is not Kris asking that but instead it's the player.

[@sanrusdyne]

One of the big things that annoys me about Ralsei's throwaway line about "sensing a dark fountain" being used as exhibit proof (apart from it, like you said, being a huge case of "this probably doesnt fuckin matter") is that he could very easily just be lying. This is the "heeeey! You! Yeah you! Ralsei's gpt something goin on!!!" Chapter in terms of how he's written and with some of the other suspicious stuff he's said in the chatper. Its very likely he can see the perspective of the player (when i say the player im talking about the diagetic character that the player plays as i personally dont think 'this is all a video game you are the player of this video game oooh' is the firection DR is gonna go) and as such its very possible Ralsei saw via our perspective that there was a dark world, and he used some vague magic to come to susie and kris and then when asked he hand waves susie's question off with some vague mumbo jumbo about 'sensing darkness'

[@joewilliams-un8vu]

The thing about Kris being The Knight is that it makes sense and it makes sense for people who are beginners to Deltarune theorising as well. It is just the people who hyper analyse Deltarune and make an even more nonsensical theory so that it would avoid Kris being The Knight. Kris being The Knight makes sense, it has it’s flaws but it actually makes sense however some people try to avoid that theory as much as possible, try and embrace it, after all, always accept every theory and then judge later so that you haven’t just made your mind up to begin with.

[@gingergingey8271]

Yeah, I'm willing to accept any VERY GOOD, AND I MEAN, VERY GOOD THEORY, I do believe Kris is the knight and I hold onto that belief firmly, but if the knight isn't Kris (which might be 50/50) I'll accept it.

[@monstrdog7031]

Oooo love the idea that kris already went through a reset without us. It would figure their save file into things, among a few others.

[@pros_0143]

It actually makes me so mad when people deny the "berdly and noelle weren't studying before the dark world". There's an abundance of insignificant details but I feel like this means something. Why would berdly and noelle jump into the dark world? Were they thrown in it? Did they slip into it? That's just another set of coinhecidences.

[@gonerdenji]

Remember that Kris and Susie did not fall into the dark world as soon as they entered in the closet the first time They could easily have seen the room was dark and just thought the lights were off. We know that Noelle has self-confidence issues to the point where she can only say no to her father and Kris So the question is, would Berdly walk into a dark room? Think about it

[@pros_0143]

​@@gonerdenji berdly sure is weird but he's just rp'ing 9/10 lol I don't think anyone would enter a pitchblack roo-- _Oh yeah, the protagonists._ But then, do dark fountains just turn rooms into abysms? Those papers thrown around are relevant or just crearive liberties? Anyway thanks, I am now less mad.

[@colecoal1365]

@@gonerdenji They were actively at their seats with the books open though.

[@gonerdenji]

​​​​@@colecoal1365 Don't take my explanation seriously but In the same way that Kris and Susie walked into the closet without falling into the dark world the first time , Noelle and Berdly could easily have walked to their seats, sat down, and put their books with no problem.(and I don't see the books being open IMO)

[@TaskMaster369]

​@@pros_0143But then, why do Sweet Cap'n Cakes talk about Queen like if it happened at least a day ago if it happened like 25 minutes ago?

[@thomasmoran8958]

Idk. As someone in the comment section of some other video (I don't remember which video) said: it feels too predictable

[@spacealien3073]

Honestly I have a weird theory related to this which is I think the Knight may well... not be one person. It would explain why there's a lot of proof Kris is the knight but also things where you have to stretch a little bit to justify how Kris managed to do that. Like I don't think given how much Kris struggles to walk without the soul that they were able to walk across town to make a fountain in the middle of the night (especially since libraries are typically locked up at night. Seriously, how the heck did they get in there???).

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

This may be the exact kind of stretching of things you're talking about but: in fairness, soulless Kris is able to walk around the house & slash Toriel's car tires in about a few minutes. Given the hours the cover of night would afford them, I think they could get across town & back with time for a pie break. Heck, the food could even give them a much needed energy boost. Admittedly I don't know for sure how they'd get into the library; but they were a know trouble maker as a child so if the game told us they just knew how to get into the locked library I'd buy it without question.

[@JezElectro13]

Why Kris suggested going to Library? Well, i mean, Noelle Did ask them to bring Susie there.

[@TheEmeraldCreeper]

she offered them to come study, and it worked

[@joshuaperry7323]

its also worth noting that the game does not need to frame us as the bad guy for Kris to view us as the bad guy. with current knowledge Kris has no real way to know who or what we are, or why we would be controlling them. it could easily be a case of 2 good guys fighting due to a failure of communication on the fault of neither side. we cant tell Kris our intentions and Kris cant openly express his through words, only actions. Does not explain why he would open a dark fountain though. An act of defiance? doesn't really make sense, if anything the opposite would make more sense. especially on the weird route.

[@iwillslapyou4982]

That's a good point to bring up, if I had to guess why Kris opens a dark fountain it would be because then we continue doing things and Kris can get a better idea of our motives.

[@tentativegazer]

Kris uses they/them. Like I know they're a fictional character but like cmon as Andrew Cunningham put it they're spectacularly androgynous

[@Fluffkitscripts]

The general M.O. of the dark worlds is that they’re an abstraction of the real world. Like, if a playing card gets stuck under the furniture, that card (as a darkner) is now going spelunking in a dusty cave. The object’s past gets abstracted into a life for a citizen when a world is created, but you can also think of them as happening parallel.

[@kilicool64]

There's another argument that can be made about why the fact that no darkners seem to recognize Kris as the Knight isn't particularly strong evidence against them being the Knight. After all, Kris doesn't seem to have been concerned at all about the possibility that Chapter 3's darkners will expose them as the one who created their Dark Fountain. At the very least, the TV should have "seen" Kris do that, yet they're clearly not going to reveal that to the rest of the cast. In fact, they'll probably be completely oblivious to it. Because of this, there is a good reason to suspect that Kris can prevent darkners from exposing their schemes. We've already been told that Dark Worlds are influenced by their creators, so my take is that Kris uses that influence to create worlds in which nobody recognizes them as their creator. I've toyed with the idea of the Dark Worlds' lore being the work of last thursdayism myself, and if true, it should allow their creator to tamper with their lore to erase certain details of their actual history.

[@jackatk]

I was skeptical at first, but you absolutely nailed this video! The comparison to Star Wars was an ingenious way to counter argue against “Why would Toby reveal the knight so early??” I just found your channel, and your work is great!

[@chippotato5647]

I could go into detail about why the assertion presented in this video is wrong, but I honestly don't believe I need to, because the biggest point of evidence that suggests Kris is not the Knight is, ironically, in very plain sight, in the very cutscene that led people to start believing it in the first place. I really do *mean* plain sight, too, because it's not hidden away from the player's view or anything. Watch the cutscene again. They get up after ripping out their SOUL, they turn the TV on, leave the door open a crack, create the dark fountain... and then they go back to the couch, put the soul back in, and let the darkness wash over them. This is the ONE thing I would expect the Roaring Knight *NOT TO DO,* and it's for a very simple reason. Dark Worlds, as we are all aware, can only be exited *after their Fountain is sealed.* The goal of the "Roaring Knight," as the name implies, is to cause the Roaring, which involves opening multiple Dark Fountains. If Kris is, in fact, this aforementioned "Roaring Knight," then *they've pigeonholed themselves into undoing their own progress.* Disregarding the symbiotic(?) connection that Kris and their SOUL seem to have for a moment: the door was open, they could have grabbed the SOUL and ducked out of there at any point, trapping Toriel and Susie in the ensuing Dark World. They could have gone out there, sprung open a few more Dark Fountains and that would've been the end of it. The world, I mean. Now, let's bring the relationship between Kris and the player. They know the player is watching over them. They knew it in the ending of Chapter 1, and they likely knew it at the end of Chapter 2 as well. Let me ask you something: if Kris is the Knight, and knows that this SOUL they're harboring is actively working against them in their supposed goal to cause the Roaring... why would they create a Dark Fountain in full view of the aforementioned SOUL? It's one thing to suggest an alternate take on Star Wars where the audience knows early on that Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, but it's something else entirely to propose that Luke Skywalker *is* Darth Vader, in spite of the obvious logistical and narrative incongruousness that would create. Why would a man seek to lead a scrappy rebellion against an empire in which he is a high ranking general of? Why would one of the Delta Warriors, the trio poised to banish the Angel's Heaven, secretly be working against the group's own interests to cause the Roaring? It's an interesting concept, but even given the portion of the story we have, I think it's safe to say we can write this off as an impossibility. Kris, definitively and beyond a shadow of a doubt, *is not the Roaring Knight.* Case closed, end of story.

[@1gengabe]

man this is making Kris knight sound pretty cool story wise.

[@KyrieFortune]

Seam has met the Knight (apparently) and clearly it's not Kris, doesn't even try to hint that Kris might be Knight, and this is the guy who is hinting Gaster is involved in some way. Then, why so many other hints point at Kris? As someone else said... there are four knights in chess. Makes perfect sense, Toby said the main story is Chapter 1 to 5, from Chapter 1 to 4 we enter Dark Fountains each opened by a different Knight, of which Kris is one, and Chapter 5 is against the Angel EDIT: as you have mentioned, the reason why "Kris is the Knight" is a popular yet disregarded theory is because it REEKS of "red herring". Kris being the Knight has a lot of plain hints and evidence, culminating in the end of Chapter 2... at which point it becomes TOO obvious of a solution, and it's barely the midpoint of the story as well. Kris as the Knight is the same as a detective/police/mystery show where they find a very obvious suspect around the midpoint of the episode, one that is TOO obvious... and is innocent, while the real culprit is either another but less suspicious person or, usually, the least probable person which turned out to have motive and opportunity all along. It's a classic trope, to the point subverting it is still a novelty. ... which brings us to how at the same time, "Kris is the Knight is a red herring" may itself be a red herring. It being so obvious it surely must be a red herring is, itself, a misdirection: it seems so obvious because IT IS. Oh, yeah, and in all of this, we are forgetting one detail... has Kris actually opened a Dark Fountain in Chapter 2? Are we absolutely sure of that? What if they are SIMULATING the opening of a Dark Fountain?

[@brodymarkiel2528]

That last bit abou it being a fake fountain is exceedingly unlikely, files LITERALLY CALL IT A DARK FOUNTAIN.

[@gingergingey8271]

Any information about people having mat the knight can be interpreted in different ways, maybe Seam met the knight, maybe he hasn't.

[@KirstenMarie_MS3]

Here's a plot twist for ya... there's more than one Knight.

[@StarLightShadows]

This is an awesome video. The fandom's insistance that Kris can't be the Knight is based on a lot of downright nonsensical assumptions. And the game is pretty explicitly leaning towards it. Something you didn't mention that as far as I'm concerned confirms that Kris is indeed the Knight, is Queen's speech about the Knight creating the Fountain. Most of the fandom who brings this scene up in debate always focuses on Queen explaining to us that any lighter can open a dark fountain, but the visual depiction of the Knight and their actions Queen creates as aid for her story tells us so much more than that it could just be "any lighter." It shows a humanoid hand (noticeably lacking in any distinctly animalistic or unusual qualities,) holding a small knife with a cross-guard and using it to create the Cyber World fountain. This is a blatant direct connection to the ending of chapter 1, where the ending stinger of the cutscene is Kris holding a knife just like this and giving an evil glare towards the camera. The knife is clearly set up as one of the most literal instances of a chekovs gun I've ever seen, and while the game (and Soulless Kris) tries to distract the player by having Kris wake up to Toriel complaining about Kris eating the entire pie, Queen's encounter at the end of the same chapter, and the chapter 2 ending both show us that the Knife is more than a goofy pie fakeout scene. Kris showed us that Knife and gave an evil glare because they were planning to do something significant to the plot with it, something that is meant to be seen as villainous. Queen's cutscene then shows us that this chekov's gun was fired off-screen, and the chapter 2 ending, for good measure, fires the gun again, ON screen. This connection also debunks the argument that Kris only makes the fountain in chapter 2 because they just learned how to do it from Queen, because it tells us that this isn't the first time this has happened, nor the first time that that knife has been used for seemingly feindish purposes. (Plus they already plugged the TV in off-screen, showing some level of forethought and planning and that they didn't just eat pie and go back to bed.) It's much more accurate to say that they only made a Fountain _in front of us_ because their cover as the Knight _has been blown._ Something else I'd argue (but is where our beliefs clearly diverge) is that it makes perfect sense for Soulless Kris to be evil, because the game literally does everything it can to suggest to us that Soulless Kris. . . _Is NOT The REAL Kris._ Yes there's the dialogue with Undyne and the Kings, which you've given a _semi-decent_ rebuttle for, but another thing much harder to rebuttle is that Kris automatically takes a step back when they first encounter the Closet Dark Fountain. Telling us that Kris doesn't know what Dark Worlds are from prior experience. (Or even if they do they would have to think they're dangerous by default, certainly making it hard if not impossible to justify them making more.) And speaking of which, there are several times in the game where Kris moves completely outside of our control, yet does not need to remove the soul at all. A simple fact that fundamentally breaks the idea that Soulless Kris is supposed to be the True Kris, as the only basis for it is that we control the soul and thus the assumption is that removing the soul is the only way they can control themself. For that matter, the whole removal of the soul inherently suggests this ain't everyone's favorite angsty teenager. The Soul is the culmination of a person's being. Even outside of the Toby Fox multiverse and it's specific statements, the basic concept of a _"Soul"_ is that it is where an entity's consciousness, their sense of self, everything that makes them sentient, comes from. You remove the soul, Logically, anything BUT the person's true self should be what's left. Ralsei explicitly confirms the soul IS Kris's, (if it wasn't, there shouldn't be anything of Kris present to affect their speech,) Spamton also directly refers to Kris AS the "Heart on a chain" rather than the body that put it there. (While referencing them being a Puppet but never acknowledging the presence of the player in the current moment.) And while most people have written it off as subversion of expectations, the cutscene where Soulless Kris is revealed STILL blatantly parallels the specific scene in Undertale where the protagonist is _possessed by a demonic spirit._ Kris also visibly doesn't have glowing red eyes (something already not natural for humans) outside of this and one small fliker during their dark world transformation, implying that at least the glowing is not typical of their eyes. And Toriel being genuinely frightened by Soulless Kris's antics, (as well as SK never even trying to get help,) drives the tone further from Soulless Kris being the real Kris or a misunderstood victim of any sort. Jevil also refers to "Hell's roar" as an upcoming threat, suggesting not only that the Roaring is indeed a real threat, but also that the prophecy we've been following (banishing the Angel's Heaven in particular,) is bullshit and will lead to devastation if followed blindly, making it even clearer that The Knight / Soulless Kris is a threat, and also solidifying the reason Ralsei may be deliberately turning a blind eye to The Knight's work, him and the Knight are on the same side, a side that is manipulating the real Kris, Susie, and probably Noelle, into bringing the Roaring. This strong amount of implication that The Knight is not just a villain but also something unnatural having forcefully taken control of Kris also leads to its own set of mysteries and potential plot twists. Cheif among which being when anyone else is going to discover that Kris is The Knight, if they're EVER going to even know that "The Knight" isn't Kris just being violently nihilistic a 'la Count Bleck, and who Kris is being possessed by. The last of which has one small line from Spamton alluding to it being Gaster, thus connecting it to the rest of the game's mysterious background narrative. And while many people would immediately be against this theory because it undermines the conflict between Kris and the player, (an assumed plot point that is frankly an unhealthy obsession in the fandom at large,) I firmly believe that juxtapositioning the player with ANOTHER puppet-master, one who is blatantly evil, manipulates everyone whenever he can, is portrayed as a downright creep, and all that, is a brilliant way to commentate on the protagonist-player relationship. (frankly no one's even given an example of an alternative that isn't ass.) It effectively puts the player in a position that challenges them to be better than Gaster, to help Kris instead of breaking their life and their world. Or if we decide to be evil, we can do the Snowgrave route where we become just as bad as Gaster. It's basically the same formula as Undertale with Flowey and the 3 routes, but focusing on the protag-player relationship instead of the RPG enemy trope.

[@brodymarkiel2528]

Heavily disagree for various reasons. 1. In my honest opinion, It was a generic looking hand hologram, I don't think toby was trying to specify anyone with that. 2. See point 1, but for the knife. I don't think it means much and in my opinion the "two knives" thing is a magic xylophone moment (basically an inconsistency toby did NOT care about and thought no one would care about, there are a few in DR, namely the clocks being different times and the window lighting being incorrect). Therefore i highly doubt it 3. Assuming kris or whoever the fuck is just "evil" is not an interesting character in the slightest and this isnt a case where it's needed (if you say chara i will counter argue further). It's also out of character for toby to do, only 4 even came close and all 4 supposedly evil characters don't truly qualify. - Flowey had no soul. - Chara as a kid was not mentally well and only goes evil on genocide because of YOU, THE PLAYER. Plus they're an outright heroic ally on neutral and pacifist routes. - King felt as though the lightners were against him and the knight making the fountain is implied to have amplified his (and queen's) negative traits (toby said this in one of the livestreams and by what the music trio says in ch2). - Mad Dummy had trans angst as revealed in the switch version. 4. Or, they did it in the open because they don't need to hide behind telling people to shut up like the actual knight. 5. We don't know why kris plugged in the tv. I personally believe Kris did not plan to make a fountain from ch1 or whatever and actually was plugging the tv (and eating the pie if you really choose to believe they did that with reason other than "it taste good") just so they could hang out with susie the next day, and only changed to "make fountain and lure cops" after finding out HOW to make a fountain (again, if you actually ask, i'll elaborate). Also, you know the reason i dislike third entity? It's because i agree with something the video said. Basically, when kris opens the fountain, WHETHER THEY ARE THE KNIGHT OR NOT, it opens character questions, "why" being the most basic example. These questions can (and knowing toby, probably will) lead to INTERESTING ANSWERS and CHARACTER EXPLORATION + GROWTH. Saying it was a third entity, especially one that's evil for being evil, is throwing away a good opening for character exploration and growth for cheap fanservice at best and a generic dime a dozen bad guy at worst.

[@StarLightShadows]

@@brodymarkiel2528 The hand you could maybe say is just generic, that's fair enough, but the Knife is a blatant direct connection with no other purpose. There's no other reason for it to be a knife instead of a sword like Knights usually use or any other sharp object for that matter. Like I spent the entire last 2 3rds of my comment explaining, Kris themselves isn't the evil one. Kris/The Knight is being possessed by Gaster the same way Spamton was puppeteered by Gaster and then subsequently thrown away by him. King's entire existence as a character proves Toby's willing to to pure bad irredeemable villains, and Gaster's never been portrayed as anything other than a creepy manipulative bastard. And Knight-Kris can be all of that. You're just being closed-minded towards the idea of Kris playing both roles. Creating the Fountain at the end of chapter 2 after Ralsei's whole big speech about the Roaring is out-of-character for Kris, no matter how you spin it.

[@brodymarkiel2528]

@@StarLightShadows "There's no other reason for it to be a knife" No one has a sword in the LW, its saying literally anyone can use a knife. Second, I already explained why I find third entity uninteresting, it throws out room for character growth. Third, King WAS redeemed somewhat (ch2 revealed he really did like lancer, making his stated "The lighteners betrayed me" motive more belivable in comparison. Fourth, If gaster was pure evil all along, why did he make the core? This is a literal altruistic action that helps all of the underground. He had the same original good intentions alphys later had with the DT extractor too (to make monsters live longer and create a vessel to break the barrier, and yes gaster made the blueprint of the dt extractor). Fifth, if Kris is posessed, then no, they're just another player character like frisk before, and the potential for a REAL character dynamic between us and them is lost in favor of cheap fanservice. Lastly, there are ways to explain making the ch3 fountain, namely a mix of warning the world of the dark fountains (undyne didn't believe them when they told her), and wanting to hang out with susie. Kris, in their soulless (again i think it really is them) thought process (read: a bit less rational than with a soul), probably assumes (on snowgrave) that susie and toriel will NOT be manipulated so easily and a snowgrave route 2 will be averted in this chapter (which i agree with, there will be no toriel weird route IMO).

[@funnylittlecreature]

IT JUST MAKES SENSE!!! PRACTICALLY LOGICALLY THEMATICALLY IT MAKES SENSE!!!!! WHY WOULD IT BE FUCKING PAPYRUS. WHY WOULD IT BE ALVIN.

[@gingergingey8271]

Most likely going to be Kris, don't disregard every theory other than Kris=knight.

[@funnylittlecreature]

@@gingergingey8271 i knowwwww i'm mainly being exaggerative for the sake of comedic effect. i don't actually care what someone's theory is. it's Fine.

[@gingergingey8271]

@@funnylittlecreature ok.

[@funnylittlecreature]

@@gingergingey8271 awesome, glad we're on the same page

[@lunashenck]

It's important to remember that we actually have a huge hint towards the games plot. In 2014 Toby Fox tweeted that deltarune was very similar to another game being worked on by someone else. I and many other people believe this game to be omori. If you haven't played it, dont read the next part, because its big spoilers It's most likely omori because the game centers around a kid spending part of each day in a fantasy world and then the other half in the real world. Also, in both games, the main character used to be part of a friend group that split up because of the death/disappearance of one of the girls in the group. If it really is omori, then that means kris is likely responsible for dess's disappearance, just like sunny was responsible for mari's death. In this case, it would be very reasonable to assume that they feel guilty and would do anything to bring her back. This would include opening the dark fountains Now, how the dark fountains would lead to dess returning, I don't know. But I think narratively, it would be a very good motivation for the knight, and would be a lot more interesting than just "the knight wants to end the world because they''re evil". Maybe dess is trapped in a dark world, maybe the dark worlds can bring people back to life, maybe the roaring will reset the universe pucci style and give kris a second chance. I'd love to hear what others think about this

[@gingergingey8271]

2014, when deltarune, wasn't a game, or a trailer.

[@lunashenck]

@@gingergingey8271 He didnt say deltarune specifically, he said it was a game he was working on. But he did specify he wasnt talking about undertale. He also mentions that he had the idea for the game since 2012, which lines up with deltarune, as the idea for the game came to him in a dream in 2012. Unless theres some third game we dont know about, the tweet is about deltarune

[@gingergingey8271]

@@lunashenck ah.

[@gabrielreid4950]

Honestly it could be either or rn, we don't really know enough about the knight to definitively say at the moment i could see it going both ways

[@duckman9327]

Okay, I think this is pretty cool of an idea. Taking a theory that is widely accepted to not be true, and helping it out.

[@pancakes8670]

It keeps the discussion new. Make sure that everyone isn't just blindly accepting one thing to be true. The Undertale community has already made that mistake so many times before.

[@maila319]

​@@pancakes8670 I have a different opinion of Chara that isn't widely accepted by the community i.e their role in the genocide run is poorly executed.

[@metron_1991]

its spooky time