Behringer Model15 vs Moog Grandmother

[@UrbanGarden-rf5op]

It's not really surprising that they are sounding so alike. I had the privilege to attend a seminar with Bob Moog. A very nice and humble man. He told us he was a little confused about other companies having a hard time replicating the sound of the Mini Moog. He had only used parts that were available at Radio Shack! RIP Bob. Despite being a long time Moog fan, I had the first version Prodigy and a Taurus mk 1, I'm getting the Behringer. Moog is no longer the same company. The name is now owned by InMusic, an Engulf & Devour of the music instrument industry. They are disassembling the Moog company without any regard to the Moog heritage. And putting old and trusted employees out of work just to maximise their profit margin. So I feel no obligation to support them any further. Great presentation, as always. Thank you for your effort and knowledge. ✌✌

[@manny_f]

Well that was an inside job, apparently.

[@HaXoNTHEEOVERSXXR]

Thats Major Respect To The MOOG Family. I Own An Original Moog Sub 37 Tribute Edition And I Will Never Get Rid Of Mine EVER.

[@roetsj]

You want the Moog name gone?,times change,move with it instead of living in the past would be my advice.

[@UrbanGarden-rf5op]

@@roetsj Quite the opposite. I want the Moog name preserved and taken care of by someone who respect the name, the legacy and the employers who helped built the reputation. Not a big corporation who’s just in it for the money and the profit margins. ✌✌

[@roetsj]

@ the new owners Will use the heritage to sell more.

[@ilovecatsandsynths9702]

The sync difference is because the Grandmother increases the range of the frequency knob when sync is on to allow for good sync sweeps. Behringer missed this. Hopefully they add it in a firmware update.

[@StarskyCarr]

Nice info. You’re right - it’s obvious now you’ve mentioned it 👍

[@dangerous77]

@@StarskyCarr also it looks like Osc 2 set to 8' on the Moog and 16' on the Behringer?

[@StarskyCarr]

@@dangerous77 yeah I noticed that during the edit, so double checked on the synth at the same settings and there was no difference .. hence I added the text about the octaves.

[@dangerous77]

@@StarskyCarr Sorry missed that

[@StarskyCarr]

@@dangerous77no worries whatsoever. I was annoyed for not noticing as I recorded it.

[@ConwayBob]

Thanks for this highly informative video. For my money, the Behringer Model 15 gets the job done. The 15's most glaring weakness (diminutive size) is also one of its greatest strengths if your studio space is limited. And oh my, look at that patch bay over there on the right where it will keep your patch cords away from the knobs and buttons. Good design choice. The sound of the Brandmother is close enough to Grandma's to suit me. I like 'em both!

[@dh4818]

I love my Grandmother but the filter pot was defective on mine from day one. Significant noise at about the 11 o'clock position. I lived with it at first but now its nails on a chalkboard to the point where the attenuverter is lost to being full time filter pot substitute.

[@RealityShiftUK]

Oh dear now I know why the filter on mine is bad

[@mingwingming1971]

Had exactly the same problem with my Grandmother crackly pot, they sent me a replacement which I still need to get a friend to replace maybe one day I’ll get it done !.. this was a wake up call about Moog quality isn’t exactly what you’d always hope for.. additionally the pitch bend failed and wobbled about freely which I managed to fix myself…again another known issue I would guess , as they changed the way it was manufactured/designed on later models.. so for all those that slate Behringer it’s food for thought..

[@adognamedshinji]

That's why I sent my last one back, and my replacement developed the same problem. This is Grandmother #5 or #6 for me. If it wasn't such a beautiful synthesizer I would have just returned it after the first defective one. Hard to feel bad for Moog when they did this to themselves. Charging so much for a synth with so many defects and lack of care for build quality is just not smart. Crazy to think I've had several times more QC issues with my Moogs than I ever had with my budget synthesizers.

[@mattypaxton]

This is common with grandmothers, but fixable and if caught young enough in ownership would be covered under warranty.

[@adognamedshinji]

I've had multiple crackly pots, switches failing, creaky keys, screw hole welds for spring tank broken off, wobbly chassis, defective spring reverb only going like 30% wet even though internal cables connected, and more. All over the course of multiple returns/exchanges/repairs. At first I thought it was just me being unlucky, but after years of exchanges/repairs I just wonder why Moog stopped caring about their QC and killed their own company. Customer support from them is generally good, which is a plus, but why not just make them with a bit of pride in craftsmanship the first time?

[@MrMusicbyMartin]

Oh no, they haven’t have they? I love my GM and I can’t believe the clone has the same oscillator, filter and tempo range, or fidelity at the extremes. The keyboard on the Moog is superb for playing, a rarity in this world of flappy plastic keys, and it’s clearly meant to offer lots of performance control through the large switches, knobs, wheels and sliders. Having the ports in separate sections on the Grandmother also makes them very easy to identify and use on the fly. Having said all that, the sound generally compares pretty well, so musicians on a budget have access to Moog’s bedrock architecture.

[@odmusicman]

You beat me to the punch, I share the same view. In fact, allowing more of the masses to get into analog on a budget certainly cannot be a bad thing.

[@MrMusicbyMartin]

@@odmusicman I got a cheap acoustic guitar for Christmas when I was 13, which would have been 1980. My sister got a Casio VL-Tone which ended up being used more by me. Both these turned me onto a life of music, and I can imagine a kid today getting a synth like the Model15 to begin their own journey.

[@TH3_FURY]

Thank you Starsky for this excellent fight ! The Model 15 is good in its style, it is perhaps a little less dynamic than a Grand Mother, but it does the job !

[@isthisviolence]

for any practical applicqtion they are interchangable 700usd price difference for all the "more natural, gritty etc." in your head

[@compucorder64]

I have a Grandmother, and I love it. I got kind of interested in the Model 15 to use with my modular with the Grandmother. Partly for bi-timbraility and duophony, to do leads, if the Grandmother does bass, or vice versa. But also was thinking with a mixer module as a way of adding more oscillators to the Grandmother. To do big mono patches, or even to do binaural patches, because you could set up the same patches but with different filter resonances and cutoff and get some nice stereo effects. That was something I loved about the Voyager. So, maybe it's not an either or, and gives a cheaper quasi-alternative to the Matriarch. Agree on the Kobol, it's the most useful and best band for buck module they've done of the vintage clones, especially alongside a modular. Pro 800 sounds great too, but happy with my Take 5.

[@drTinta]

Great video! Thanks for making it! I've been looking for a second hand Grandmother ever since I first heard it, but didn't want to spend 1K on it and this video pointed out a potential solution. I had a lot of bad experiences with Behringer and wanted nothing to do with their products until now.

[@Vim-Wolf]

Neutron/Proton/Model15 would make a nice little stack. I'm a third of the way there.

[@VegPoop]

where'd you get a proton?

[@MSS-g7f]

@@VegPoopshould be out later this year. Was announced two years ago or so.

[@BeatsByGemsmiff]

Im 2 thirds of the way there…only proton left 😬😬

[@MingoMusicYT]

great video and was pleasantly surprised to hear a drum loop (00:00) I created for a zenhiser sample pack in the background :D cheers!

[@StarskyCarr]

Haha that’s cool. It’s always nice to hear your stuff being used. I hope if brought a smile to your face 😀 Nice loop!

[@user82938]

Can you patch an offset voltage into the Model 15 LFO to get higher rates?

[@elifan2523]

To me the Moog GM is a performance instrument where the form factor and a quality plays a crucial part

[@neonblack211]

Quality? Out of tune oscillators and broken reverbs galore, look how many people alone in this comment section have come forward with issues. Thats not indicative of quality, even the unit in this video has bugs

[@bobmob-o1j]

@@neonblack211 Well, let's hope that the Taiwanese workers are better motivated than the woke guys from Asheville.

[@ogasi1798]

@@bobmob-o1j you can bet your ass they will be

[@DrJ3RK8]

Agree! The thing about my Grandmother (dark version) is that it makes me PLAY it. It's quite a thing.

[@YouBredRaptorsMusic]

Agreed. Moog's stuff is made to be brought out and played. I don't know if much Behringer gear I'd trust in the road. Definitely not their Bugera Line. Probably not any of their synths. The mixers Midas designed and made probably. That's about it.

[@b3ch113]

On the filter sweeps you do at 00:56 ish, the difference is striking. The Model 15 keeps a lot more low-end, and it also "clicks" and does something really wrong.

[@PaulEubanks]

Good catch! This is a thing with the Grandmother. You can get around it by patching a sub-oscillator in and bypassing the filter, and run it through the attenuator to dial in sub to taste.

[@MikkelGrumBovin]

I like your straight forward transparency ....especially in these - rightfull or wrongfully Behringer hating times,-

[@hillblocksview]

*Starsky's Carr* was actually a _1976_ *Ford Gran Torino!* 😎

[@StarskyCarr]

My dad’s van had the same go faster stripes

[@h-dawg969]

@@StarskyCarr Did they make it go faster?

[@mathumphreys]

It's the coolest name on YT.

[@StarskyCarr]

@@h-dawg969oh yes!! 🏎️🏁

[@jeffreyalme6480]

7,4xx views and only 342 likes? Come on people! This gentleman works so hard to bring us information so clear.

[@maramé.r]

With Moog nowadays you are paying the price to have Moog written on your synth. The monophonic, reverb only, no-patch memory, Grandmother is twice the price of the polyphonic analogue Korg Minilogue XD which has three oscillators, multiple effects and 500 patch memory. The Behringer is priced more realistically and is affordable

[@DannoBoston]

The Model 15 wouldn't exist if Moog hadn't created the Grandmother. Think about that before rewarding them for making another cheap knockoff instead of supporting the folks who create new things. It's more than just the badge, it's the engineering behind it. Your comparison to the Korg is an apples to oranges, because the Korg is not patchable with CV.

[@YouBredRaptorsMusic]

They copied the grandmother as closely as possible and cut costs where they could (keys, spring reverb, labor, materials, r&D, marketing, product launch)

[@KickzNBeatz]

@@DannoBoston I feel Moog charges more than they should for all of their gear. We really are paying more when it comes to Moog products just because of the name.

[@loweni7460]

@DannoBoston no modern synth would exist without the first subtractive synthesizer should every company now pay homage to moog for every synth in existence?

[@YouBredRaptorsMusic]

@@KickzNBeatz I bet they mark up materials and labor exactly the same, maybe even less, than Behringer does. Behringer just starts with cheaper materials, cheaper labor, and significantly less overhead in terms of R&D and marketing and new product line start up costs.

[@sibbyeskie]

Overall it seems the GM tends more to preserving the quintessential Moog beefyness in the low end response and though you didn't seem to engage the mixer distortion a lot (a good test case would be the Mike Dean Grandmother demo sound) it seems the GM also has a better time with that. Honestly those are the two things that draw me to Moog to begin with. There's just something specific to Moog in how it handles those attributes in their vintage circuit units. However you may have just sold a lot of Model15 units just the same.

[@ewanstefani]

Did they fix the triangle wave?

[@alexsmart5452]

The first time I watched one of his videos I thought he was Bernard Sumner.

[@PorchBass]

Lol now you mention it!

[@housebandthexenos2569]

Im a huge New Order fan and you know what? You're fookin right!

[@StarskyCarr]

😮😂😂

[@BLACKHAWKAMPLIFIERS]

Greetings, I’m curious if that triangle wave issue was ever resolved? If it’s not a true triangle (and more of a saw) that will cause the weaker bass and buzzier sound problems

[@liviou2004]

Thank you very much. Do you know if the Sync command issue has been fixed ?

[@aquaticborealis4877]

So, minus the keyboard and reverb, the Model 15 is basically just a copy of the Grandmother?

[@StarskyCarr]

Yes

[@bobmob-o1j]

Model 15 has an additional sub osc more patchpoints plus better manufacturing quality. Although no one knows what it looks like with Inmusic's Asian manufacturing.

[@StarskyCarr]

@@bobmob-o1jI think quality will increase with inmusic - they’ve got stronger supply chains, better purchasing power and FYI they’re continuing the manufacturing on the Asheville site it all looks very positive

[@AdamsOlympia]

@@bobmob-o1j I'm sure you mean the Moog Grandmother has better manufacturing quality than Behringer Model 15?

[@DankePlace]

@@bobmob-o1j You haven't even touched a Model 15 so how do you know what the manufacturing quality is like?

[@rmayhem9658]

I got a Wasp and a Neutron. Do I want another unit in the same form factor? Not really - it makes you think about your motives for buying.

[@VegPoop]

Sure buddy

[@johnmcguire1792]

Sweet. Gonna pass on this one but the kobal looks interesting. I have the pro 800. Use it most days...belter for the boodle

[@blankspace0000]

These behringer moog clones are so interesting! They never have the moog sound to my ear (not enough precision in the top end is how I would describe it) but what they do have is a lovely rich low-mid warmth that the moogs are often missing.

[@kidkique]

You can really detect the moog sound through KZbin compression?

[@wulfffo]

@@kidkique it's not like the audio is run at 2kbps, the tonal differences can be heard even despite the fact that they are quite minor and probably not worth even caring about.

[@NEOREV_MUSIC]

Shame about your Grandmother being defective. My Sub 37 arrived with parts bouncing around inside.

[@dirtyharry1881]

But but... I gave moog 1000$ for the build quality!

[@PabloInformation]

@@dirtyharry1881 3 moog & 3 Behringer's in the studio here including a grandmother maybe something has changed since the last year or two now that its no longer employee owned i don't know but all my Moogs have top notch build quality tighter tolerances & just more precise better sounding & feeling instruments even if its just a 5-10% difference. just don't delude your self your not comparing apples to apples. but if you cant be bothered to save & have the patience to to get to $899 for a synth you claim to want then this will clone should get you close if that's your goal

[@prinzbach]

The filter sounds a bit odd on the Model15 (while sweeping it's not as smooth as the moog one)... Otherwise very close. Great video thanks for all the hard work!!

[@lilakmonoke982]

So they sound similar which is beside the point. The m15 is for berlinschool and the moogy is for manual playing

[@StarskyCarr]

You can do either on the GM. And a midi keyboard will release your inner Herbie Hancock on the M15.

[@SourMoonBlues]

It's behringer's filters that I'm just not sold on.

[@ThisOldCelt]

Hi Starsky, you didn't mention the midi implementation, is it basic (pitch, gate, mod) or are other controls midiable ? cheers bud :)

[@StarskyCarr]

Very basic, no extra control but there is velocity… forgot that bit and I’d even made notes!

[@activelow9297]

Get yourself a Kenton MIDI-CV box. Better yet, get several of them and put one on each of your analog synthesizers... that way everything in your studio has a consistent MIDI implementation.

[@stevebell4763]

Look at the visual representation, I know which I'd buy

[@nicholasfaith8999]

I wish moog would start releasing eurorack modules. The modules of the grandmother, and matriarch would make nice Eurorack modules...

[@georgegeorgio1751]

They won’t do this as it would be direct competition with Behringer so they can justify price difference with keys version in this example.

[@ivanstegachev]

They have similarities for most parts for sure. Overall Moog have a little more fuller nature in sound, lows in general are more distinct on everything. Everywhere where modulation happening are also definitely on a Moog side with it grittier, wilder, authentic sounding with more flatter, kind of generic sound on M15 in comparison.

[@isthisviolence]

@@ivanstegachevnaaah

[@fakshen1973]

The difference in sound is as subtle as the difference in two different units of two different manufacturing runs.

[@mybiggrin]

I’m not hearing ANYTHING different worth the Moog price

[@rodnee2340]

​@@mybiggrinI have a Moog GM and they are well worth the money. The build and key bed are fantastic and the price is under a grand. But the side by side comparison here is minimal. So the M15 is definitely worth getting. Personally I won't be getting one for obvious reasons. But I do like the look of the Grind. Beringer are really putting out alot of good sounding synths lately.

[@RolandFrasierEPIC]

Great comparison video as always. Wish you lived closer so I could easily loan you my SH-5 for your MS-5 comparison. :) Any idea why Behringer called this the Model 15 when Moog also has a Model 15 reissue? Maybe calling it “Mother’s Mother” was too close for the legal folks? Thanks for putting these together.

[@lundsweden]

They should've called it the MF!

[@jjrusy7438]

grandmother uses 900 series moules from the old model 15,30,55, w/e series, the really good original ones

[@leftovernoise]

Behringmother

[@bobmob-o1j]

@@lundsweden Milf

[@macdaddybender]

The Nanna

[@kylesmith864]

is the velocity CV output totally broken on the model 15 like it is in the Grandmother?

[@StarskyCarr]

No I had a play with it - forgot to video that bit though!

[@robertosantiagomp]

The original is more snappy and cuts more

[@kidkique]

I bet in a blind taste test you wouldn't be able to tell.

[@robertosantiagomp]

@@kidkique yes I agree because he’s comparing the same knob positions

[@kidkique]

@@robertosantiagomp Wampler has a really good video on how subtle the sound differences are when you swap out things like diodes or ics. Coupled with KZbin compression and Bluetooth compression, these audio gear comparison videos on KZbin are like borderline silly

[@kamilpakatheinfluence]

Only thing you can't do with Behringer is hitting it with a hand to get that spring reverb noise.

[@richc848]

The Sequential OB-6 also has a digital spring reverb emulation, but they actually bothered to emulate the spring noise when you whack the side of the synth hard with your hand. Has anyone tried smacking a Model 15?

[@kamilpakatheinfluence]

@@richc848 I only smacked grandmother at a Guitar Center LOL

[@mitseuler]

They sound very similar indeed (ok, it's a replica of the original) but I think it was lacking a bit of low end (the Behringer)

[@marsmediapro]

Sounds pretty darn close. Thanks for sharing!

[@pierrenhy3835]

Thank you for this video. Why do they call it model 15 ?

[@dr.gregoryf.maassen2637]

A very interesting option to play around with a semi module. Affordable and a great alternative for any school to teach synthesis and any budget conscious user to have access to modular synthesis. If you miss the Moog name on the Model 15, you can always plop a Moog sticker on it. I am not so in product marketing, but like quality for money. This is such a great alternative for traditionally overpriced Moogs. No need to feel sorry as a Moog owner. Obviously the Grandmother is also a nice synthesizer with nice colors that just happens to sound pretty similar to the Behringer. But, for this price point, less than $300, even super Moog enthusiasts have to acknowledge that Behringer has something special on offer.

[@liqube]

Your videos are fucking awesome and comprehensive. Thank you.

[@jutjup4731]

All well and good, but in the end I just want the Moog

[@ravkepar]

Long live the Grandmother!

[@bobmob-o1j]

@@ravkepar long live the numark now with moogfilter :P

[@Station2Station-du2gh]

@@bobmob-o1j or poo-mark as DJ's call them.

[@electronaut7429]

Excellent video! I'm wondering how sequencers and arpeggiators on both synths compare in use?

[@StarskyCarr]

They’re the same as far as I can tell. I’ve not noticed any anomalies but haven’t spent hours playing them either.

[@electronaut7429]

@@StarskyCarr Thank you. :-) The reason I ask is that the Crave sequencer was disappointing in always changing patterns immediately compared to the Mother 32's change at the end of the pattern option. Clock divisions on the Crave when syncing the Crave were updated to make the machine less versatile in performance; early firmware let the tempo knob control divisions during synced playback.

[@boxodrive]

Excellent looking forward to what you do with the ms-5

[@FunnyBecauseItsTrue]

...is there oscillator bleed from the Model 15?

[@YouBredRaptorsMusic]

I've had bleed issues with Behringer synths.

[@ThePCxbox]

Honestly cant wait for the 15, I miss the matriarch I had for 2 years, the oscillators and filter combo were just so perfect but its difficult justifying even ~800 for a GMA as a home studio producer. 300 bucks for pretty much 1:1 recreation of the sounds I miss (barring that sweet sweet delay and stereo path) is a no brainer! The triangle thing is a bit of a bummer though as I use them pretty frequently, really hoping they took what you said into consideration!

[@jppagetoo]

You always do excellent tests and comparisons. I plan to get a Model 15.

[@Cysubtor_8vb]

Oh, I've seen your first vid, but somehow missed this one. Having both the Moog Subharmonicon and Mother-32, I've been pondering adding the Behringer Model 15 as a more affordable Grandmother option to pair with them. Plus, this is smaller and easier to physically fit in as I already have several keyboards and midi controllers.

[@the_glove]

I wish they had versions of these rack synths with a quality keybed

[@crashedsite]

Seems to me because both are made with new components that they sound more alike then other Behringer clones of vintage synths, that often sound way more different.

[@StarskyCarr]

Yeah the problem with vintage synths (as I’ve demo’d myself) is that no 2 old ones have lived the same life - add to that hundreds of components degrading at different rates you’ll never reproduce it to sound like everyone’s unit. It’s why I concentrate on the feel and character with the vintage stuff.

[@unduloid]

@@StarskyCarr Vintage synths will have sounded different straight from the factory. This is even true for fairly simple machines, like the TB-303.

[@EversonBernardes]

@@unduloid people have no idea how wide tolerances on electronics components were for consumers stuff up until the 90s. A modern clone is probably closer to any single vintage unit than they are between them.

[@DankePlace]

@@EversonBernardes no this is not true, you cannot clone "age", and this is where a clone cannot simply replicate the age of components of the original it is trying to clone. It is simply not possible.

[@Heathcliff_hensel]

I disagree, the MS-1 sounds dead on.

[@DannoBoston]

Behringer doesn't send out preview copies, but they probably won't complain about this review because it cost them nothing.

[@MikeJayMusic]

I got kicked out of the Behringer Facebook group simply for not enjoying the size of the Crave/Edge. It's a weird feeling wanting to buy this synth 😆

[@BrentODell]

I was in a group and left because almost the entire thing was people just asking Behringer to clone this or that specific thing rather than any real discussion of synths, music, or even existing Behringer products. It's was crazy.

[@MikeJayMusic]

@BrentODell yep. Probably the same group, because that happened all the time.

[@DankePlace]

@@MikeJayMusic It's a hive mindset, you wont be able to ask anything that isn't positive so will be shown the door.

[@VegPoop]

​@@BrentODell no one cares that you left

[@MadelnMachines]

Do you still have the Model D - I'm curious if it sounds much different.

[@StarskyCarr]

It wasn’t mine - someone asked me to demo theirs.

[@RJ1J]

This is basically identical. Is that because the Grandmother uses Moog's oldest type of transistors and circuits, which Behringer could presumably just buy off the shelf as they are so old and long out of any patent.

[@mr.irrelevant3588]

ive seen Grandmother repair videos and its all modern surface mount parts.

[@midi789tb]

great comparison video mate! thanks.

[@Tripwelleverday]

I seen so many gms with broken reverbs and outta tune oscillators hope Behringer have corrected the main problems with their recreation isn’t the grandmother made with coolaudio oscillators too so it la basically a Behringer anyway

[@fluoxethine]

We also need the Model 15 vs Neutron comparison. Thank you!

[@neonblack211]

They're completely different synths there's nothing to A/B

[@jazzjeffjazzjeff]

Everything that makes me love the Grandmother is missing in the Behringer.

[@dmares700]

Behringer grand brother

[@thirstyCactus]

Copyright claims from loud high frequency sweeps??? Wtf? KZbin need to chill the f*ck out.

[@StarskyCarr]

Yeah.. I e had loads of them. Too many early electronic tracks playing filter sweeps! Very annoying though .

[@thirstyCactus]

@@StarskyCarr That is unfair on multiple levels. First, it's an incorrect match, second, it is your own performance, third, it is a fair-use case! A source citation should be all that's required, even if you *did* play an existing piece. Not to mention, hasn't it been >50 years since those experimental recordings? Sorry for the rant, but, you know.

[@neonblack211]

@@thirstyCactus you are 100 percent correct, it's one of the stupidest examples I've heard

[@Si_G]

The Sweep cameo was so good 🤣

[@Farold_Haltermeyer]

I'm sitting here with my Grandmother :) and I'm not happy with her. Feels cheaply made, buttons are loose, knobs spin in places, switches stick or don't activate on the arp, goes out of tune...for the first time I may actually buy a Behringer! This was the first Moog I've bought and been incredibly disappointed with the quality so a £600 discount for the sound seems pretty great

[@thirstyCactus]

The Behringer unit isn't sounding great, imo. I have the Behringer model D and Pro-800, and am not satisfied with them either. I believe it is non-linear (distortion) characteristics that are somehow not pleasing (at least to me), as the raw oscillators seem good. Korg MS-20 mini and Oddyssey, however, sound amazing to me, so I don't think it's "clone-bias". I really wanted to like the Behringer gear, as it is so affordable. On the other hand, I've found Behringer euro-rack modules to be quite excellent. Maybe it's just the filters that Bgr isn't getting quite right?

[@Donetur]

It is a matter of tastes, for me the Pro 800 sounds good. It also depends on how well you learnt to program it.

[@andreievkalupniek5717]

I think you might be right about the distortion/drive being the cause of them sounding slightly different - when things get summed and go to a filter, they can overdrive the filter and this drive character is what is most pleasing in Moog synthesizers. I have the Model D, the Poly D and the Moog Subsequent 37 and I like the Sub37 the most. Maybe this explains also why I hear some harshness on the high end on my Pro-800. I can hear a “roundness” on the Grandmother at 19:24 that is missing on the Model 15.

[@thirstyCactus]

@@andreievkalupniek5717 Right, the pro-800 does seems a bit harsh in the high-end. The resonance is all over the shop as well. Untamed, perhaps?

[@thirstyCactus]

@@Donetur True, regarding taste. I did mention that the assessment was my own opinion. For the Pro-800, I did load the latest firmware, and experiment with all the settings. It just felt a bit difficult to dial in what I was aiming for, and the sounds I was getting didn't give anything back, so to speak. To me, that feeling marks a badly made instrument. It has taken many decades for me to recognize that feeling. Rather than struggle with an instrument, I will convince myself to sell it and move on.

[@Donetur]

@@thirstyCactus well I am based on my own experience as well I have designed great sounds for the Pro 800, and I can confirm it sounds good as per my experience.

[@richardhermans4457]

The Model 15 in itself is a great sounding synth, but does it sound like the Grandmother to me, no. Moog has a special sound, and no, I'm not a Moog fanboy who thinks they can do no wrong. I still own my Moog Voyager I bought new in 2004(Maple), but I think the upper tier is overpriced and caters to the elites who can afford all the new poly analog synths from Oberheim, Sequential Circuits, Korg and Moog, all in their studios. I'm still angry at Korg on how they handled the release of the Arp2600 reissue. Clearly everyone on the inside had insider information which resulted in the production run almost sold out before they even announced it. I don't include you Mr Starsky in that group. :)

[@hulkslayer626]

Didn't even realize this was a Grandmother clone. Thought it was a System 15 scaled down lol Behringed is killing it with modular and semi-modular! I can't wait for the day i have a literal wall of synths like Ive drooled over in videos of Junkie-XL lol

[@wsmith67]

The original value proposition of the Grandmother is that it is a scaled down System 15 clone. Or as Moog puts it, “Grandmother’s circuits, spring reverb, and spirit are inspired by the classic Moog Modular Synthesizers.”

[@scottfrost317]

So they cloned an existing product? Does that not sit wrong?

[@unduloid]

@@wsmith67 But why did they have to make it so _big?_

[@McEnroe911]

@@scottfrost317 have you been living in a cave? Behringer clones loads of existing products. They’re shameless

[@RayR]

@@scottfrost317 ​ @scottfrost317 No. The patents on the circuits are long expired. Before you get upset, turn in your cell phone and only purchase IPhones since all other phones are clones of it. Making clones of Moog products has been going since the 80's.The thing I don't understand.. is people get upset yet most likely don't even own a Moog or could afford one. They are not even affected by it. Can you see the blinding hypocrisy of that! Behringer makes products for the masses, for the people who don't have much money, are struggling and live real lives trying to get by and afford a piece of the dream. If you really care about Moog then actually buy the Grandmother and support them but don't rain on the happiness of people who buy the 15.

[@vazdaqui8513]

Grandmother more mojo, more body to the notes, cant explain..

[@patsonmusic]

Maybe a little, but not much. I bet in a blind test you would not be able to tell the difference. I've listened to this video in the background and I have to check the window every now and then, to see which one Starsky is playing. And definitively more body in physical mass 🙂

[@sjoerdw2]

Thanks for sharing 🙏🏻

[@russ254]

model15 would sound better using the Swing keyboard

[@StarskyCarr]

😂

[@alphanumeric1529]

Grandmother is the best synth I own, best instrument I own, best piece of music gear I own. I love it. And I've been making electronic music since 95, and guitar music since 90. Left the house for the first time in two years, thanks co video, to visit family in commie lands, 2 days into our trip, our dishwasher, just sitting there, sprang a leak, flooded our house, water poured down into my studio in the basement below, directly onto the Grandmother. The Grandmother didn't give a FNCK. She's a champ. A bada55 bitch. Sounds and works great. I love her.

[@StarskyCarr]

Wow… mine seems to be a bit more delicate. Maybe I should store it in the utility room to toughen it up. The central heating has obviously turned it into a snowflake.

[@godetect406]

I have been buying Behringer clones for years, attracted by tests, usually from KZbin. They sound great and I made a lot of music with them, but... something always didn't feel right to me, they seemed to sound identical... 3 months ago, for the first time in my life, I spent money on a Moog grandmother, I also bought a Roland JX8P... I just wanted to see how it was is to play on these devices. Today I'm selling the last Behringers I have left for next to nothing. Why ? Because it was only in real life that I realized how big the gap is between these clones and the original... YT probably flattens everything and the triangle sounds like a triangle and the pulse sounds like a pulse... but live... Oh gods, the difference is cosmic. My conclusion from several years: Unfortunately, all Behringers are weak-sounding synthesizers, they have little sound and nothing sticks together, something like weak vst. YT tests are biased due to sound compression and processing.

[@rsvp9816]

the behringer sounds like a soft-synth, why? the grandmother sounds looser and larger.

[@boeiend100]

They should have called it Brother

[@__teles__]

I'm sick of the female gendering of all the Moogs. Its cringy.

[@robertsyrett1992]

The Grandbrother.

[@tomphillpotts]

Grandson

[@fiShyf00d]

BFAM - Brother from another mother

[@bigjayrillah3508]

Spot on

[@Simonhughes185]

Sweep! haha nice one

[@robertcrystals]

Moogs about to become Behringer anyway

[@D1570R73D]

I had and sold a GM, and I can tell you, Moog was cost cutting when they designed it. The oscillators are nowhere near as good as previous synths or even the Sub37 ones. They sound thin and buzzy on their own, kinda like chiptune. It was only a small step up from the DFAM oscillators which are intentionally thin to be used in FM. No wonder Behringer is able to sound so close at a lower price point. Here's hoping Moog's new management turns them around.

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

cap

[@D1570R73D]

@@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135 I wish it was, but go ahead and do some research, there's a lot of people that have noticed a quality difference after they stopped using Bob's designs.

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

@@D1570R73D yeah the quality so that what you mean well the problem i had with my GM is the keyboard on the F note was not working on the keyboard that helps it auto retune the synth tbh ngl

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

it does not thin it just the build quality on some of them tbh i guess i was lucking only the F Note on the keyboard was the only thing that need to be fix and i was warranty so that was good tbh no cap

[@D1570R73D]

@@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135 with the reduced build quality comes a worse sound.

[@DankePlace]

Behringer simply let themselves down with the form factor, I am no fan of the size of their units, smaller knobs do no one any favors and it hurts the brand because visually they look like toys when you do compare to the og units. Sound wise they might be similar, but the interface is off putting for me, I had a Model D and it was physically larger than my Minitaur, but the Minitaur had really nice knobs, large too and that was a joy to use. Anyways, enough about what "she said", thanks for the upload Starsky.

[@JewelzFin]

They are toys compared to the big boys lol.

[@DankePlace]

@@JewelzFin I put a Take 5 on my desk 2 days ago, the cost was around the same you would expect to pay for a DM12, the difference between the 2 is night and day, and I own both, just not the DM12 keybed. The keybed in the T5 is where it all starts, that's what differentiates a quality synth over something that is subpar, same keybed in my Pro 3 too. What's funny is Modal uses the same keybed in same priced synths with the DM12, so why is Behringer's keybeds so bad?

[@mickeythompson9537]

Good overview and comparison of the two. Still not completely sold on the sound of them, for some odd reason. But the Behringer would be my choice, as I hate the Tandy / RadioShack colours of the Grandmother, and people think charging way too much for the Dark Edition is clever and funny. I also like how the Model 15 pays more heed to the OG Moog Modular than the Granny.

[@gmo2932]

Cool. I’ll download this video and translated it / redub it with Ai to different languages and upload it to my channels and social media. Sure, I could make my own but it’s just easier to copy this video and change it just a bit. Still a win win for everyone, the video is more accessible to more people, I get some money for my work translating it via ai and changing it up a bit so the algorithms won’t flag it. I’ll be able to add my own affiliate links that will help my channel.

[@DankePlace]

you can't plagiarize people's works, doesn't work like that.

[@earodeafchild]

I get it!

[@neonblack211]

Imagine thinking the moog has a monopoly on subtractive synthesis... omg they made a mono osc>filter>vca aynth with reverb! Someone copyright the incredible design

[@earodeafchild]

@@neonblack211 It’s a comparison with the Grandmother for a reason otherwise there would be a Monopoly in the video!

[@sqwook]

Thank you mate 😘

[@MichaelDowComposer]

Im amazed people still argue about square and saw waves to be honest.... Just get what you can afford and have fun. Or save up if you dont want to support conglomerate bullies.

[@antoniolausinrabelo6142]

Suenan diferentes, losndos suenan bien pero hay diferencias, yo personalmente prefiero el moog que ademas es mas bonito

[@Goettel]

Great days.

[@MikeUIibarri]

Someday... I will have an entire rack full of B gear. And I will blame this channel in a big way.

[@garrycraig2095]

Lol

[@waggon321]

Sweep! Ha ha.Cracked me up!

[@IanTindale]

it does sound a bit sooty there

[@remynettheim4918]

Grandmother filter goes: eeeeerrrwwwoo. Behringer filter goes eeeeewwooo. The moog sound is in the rrrr

[@samprock]

I'll wait for a cheaper review from Carsky Starr channel! 🤪 ....... still something is wrong with me, I still can't support thievery LOL Good sounds, good in depth review!

[@earodeafchild]

2nd this!

[@AbsurdTV1]

Its the same synth. 😮

[@goodmusic7459]

Super

[@dalecutlemusic586]

You get the nice old lady next door 😆. While you will help her bring in groceries, shell never make you a batch of good cookies like your real GM.

[@paulsearles]

Hate to sound like a tosser but the Moog is much fatter on my monitors. It's like the subs are rolled off on the stolen version. Also there is more movement in the real synth and a more exciting attack - you can hear the voltage popping. The simple reedy middle tones are very close though. I'm glad they failed because I hate thieves.

[@Jzojzojzo]

You are not alone it is so slight difference but moog filter sounds just slightly less noisy and round

[@Jzojzojzo]

It so slight difference that i don’t know it could be just model/individual synth difference too

[@kenzomusicit2827]

Il prezzo, fa suonare meglio il behringer...

[@famousarmystudio]

Not one single listener of any track made with either of these would care that the it was made with the “original”. Gear snobbery is so goofy with the Moog purist crowd. It seems more that Moog snobs are aggressively justifying spending much more money than a kid who saved up for a Behringer clone and gets nearly the same sound. Sure in our tuned 12 speaker Dolby Atmos mix studio, I can hear subtle differences, but not enough to justify Moog’s overpriced brand sticker on a box.

[@vasil3089]

I can't help but think that NY Shitty "hospitality" and rent affect cost. There's always a price to be paid for living in a psychopathic, soon to be underwater, dump.

[@aftertheendtimes]

Wonder when Behringer HATE vill stop, It is a repeating happening, seems to be paid trolls,....Thanks anyway Starsky for a great video

[@unduloid]

I'm not sure whether they're paid, but some elitism seems to be at play here.

[@novalogue]

The day they continue cloning vintage gear and bring their own stuff to the market without ripping off almost 1:1 still selling products of other manufacturers - some people have friends that work at Moog, Roland etc.. Wouldnt you be mad at a company that would do this to the company of one of your relatives/friends?

[@fonarte]

​@@novaloguea lot of these og synths aren't even made anymore. Not everyone can afford for spend 2-6k on a single synth new (and if you buy vintage used guess what your friends at that company benefit 0) They are opening up things a lot of people would never have access to. The elitists won't stop buying brand name stuff regardless of whether they did or not. Those expensive synth companies are gonna do whatever they can to maximize their own personal profit anyway by selling the company, their IP, or whatever as has been done time and time again regardless of what perceived competition they have or don't have. Which is what this is, competition. They can choose to compete or not. And they chose not to,part of their brand is their boutique expensiveness. Remember Behringer declined to buy Moog when they were up for sale yet again because they don't want to be part of that market segment.

[@tattooguy413]

@@novaloguewho cares? I own a Moog Matriarch, and this doesn’t bother me in the least. If anything, this illustrates how over priced many synths are (see “brand tax). If this allows this sound to be put into someone’s hands who maybe doesn’t have the means or the care to pay for a Moog, I’m all for it (even if build quality is the sacrifice) I own a Matriarch, Sub37, OB-6, Trigon-6, and Hydrasynth Deluxe currently. I care about build quality personally, so that’s why I purchased what I did. But that doesn’t devalue the Behringer units whatsoever Whatever inspires people and whatever gets it in their studios is a plus in my books

[@err4071]

@@novalogue What about the synth such as the octave cat, the monopoly, the SH-5 , the HS 101, the Pro 1, the Wasp and all the other clones which are not made anynore, if it wasnt for Behringer none of those synth would be easily accessible to people. As far as the clones that are still being made are concerned, like the minimoog etc etc, other companies such as analogue solutions and studio electronics and some others are cloning those too.

[@brobocop8293]

ahhhh, typical moog quality. thats why i got rid of all of mine . ALWAYS something wrong or janky with them. I have had significantly less problems with the behringers, for far less money.

[@dans.8198]

You forgot to say the Grandmother is made in the US, while Behringer copycats are made in China. I think that is enough for some of us to decide which company deserves our money.

[@StarskyCarr]

I didn't forget, I was concentrating on. the sounds. I think everyone knows that Moog uses imported components (like everyone else - it's by no way a dis) and assembles in the US, whereas Behringer's assembly plant is in China. Big fan of Moog here btw.

[@Heathcliff_hensel]

the circuit boards in Moogs are made in China.

[@dans.8198]

@@Heathcliff_hensel Citation needed.

[@earodeafchild]

I've honestly tried to like Behringer but I can‘t… Same for Trump!

[@robert-wr6md]

Then don't vote for him, but then if you live in Norwich you won't have the choice.

[@jazzjeffjazzjeff]

LOL!Good comparison