State of the Art Industry - Draftsmen S04E06

[@Draftsmen]

A good way to adapt to change is by learning new skills. Sign up for a free Proko account and start learning at proko.com/signup

[@pibyte]

3:10 A young Stan Prokopenko appears.

[@pibyte]

I think there are two reasons why sales on Proko courses are up: 1.) Artists use their "downtime" to improve and educate themselves 2.) most of the courses are really good.

[@ahmedalqirsh4213]

whats the name of the 7 hr documentary about hollywood ?

[@charnich]

@@ahmedalqirsh4213 Moguls and Movie Stars

[@jamesfreygang9878]

A GREAT way to adapt to change is by learning new skills! Constant/continued learning=becoming more valuable=always in demand=always employed/employable.

[@scarletsletter4466]

I’ll try to be constructive: this is a sensitive topic that’s impacting 10 MILLION of us working in the US design industry (that includes creative visual work in games, publishing, advertising, etc). We represent 4% of US GDP - and I’m not even talking about artists outside the US who are being impacted even more than we are. So if Stan’s position on the topic of AI disruption to our industry is truly, “I don’t think anything is wrong because I haven’t felt anything personally & nobody around me has said they’re impacted,” then respectfully, it might’ve been best for him to sit out this podcast & bring in a design professional who’s dealing with the impact day-to-day. I understand that Stan’s business is art education, and I think that’s uniquely resistant to the disruption in commercial art & design. You’re serving hobbyists & aspiring artists. Art is fun & folks will always want to learn to draw. But education is a tiny sliver of working artists in the US, so you can’t extrapolate your experience to all of us. The majority of us aren’t entrepreneurs or business owners, either. We work in the design industry on products, film, games, advertising, etc. Stan recognizes this at 22:48 when he says most of us do work for corporations. So clearly he knows. You have a big platform so it would be great to bring on a studio lead to discuss the disruption and what areas they think are going to offer the most longevity. At 24:05 Marshall admits that Katzenberg stated that 95% of animation will be done by AI. (Note that this isn’t exactly “AI” in the sense people think of generative AI- it’s basically the same tools used in games to enable 3D character movement.) Tech employees are actually being laid-off at a higher rate than designers, since AI is much better at programming than it is at creative work. My advice to young artists, as a concept designer in film/ games, is that you should only go to art school if you’re independently wealthy and don’t need a job to support yourself. No American should be taking out loans to get an art education right now. I’ve advised artists who aren’t yet working professionally to not go into this field until it stabilizes. If you want an art career, consider oil painting, mural painting, & other areas of craftsmanship rather than going into the design industry/ commercial art.

[@oopsieitsspooky]

Man I'm a new artist and getting into the field of concept art for videogames is my dream. I just started 4 months ago and AI is killing my dreams. Maybe I should just learn to code or something ffs

[@DanielWillardson]

Im a background painter in the Animation Guild think there's two facets to the worry in the entertainment arts going on right now. The first is "will the industry make it through this?" which I think most people would say yes, even if it comes with massive changes. Movies and TV and games will still be made by big studios in a few years. The second is "is my career going to be ok?" And that's much harder for working professionals to answer, because no one knows how many jobs will be cut and in what departments, or how many shows will be greenlit/cancelled down the line. But here's the part of this discussion that rubs me the wrong way, it's that the industry WILL shift no matter what comes next and that we need to be comfortable with that idea and look for new avenues for our livelihoods. I don't want to hear that when studios left and right are reporting record profits and CEO pay. There's plenty of room for this studios to hire large teams to work on a multitude of projects and to pay them well, but they don't want to because business is motivated by one this and its the next quarterly earnings report. Lately on twitter the response from fans is "why not go indie?" and its quite simple. Indie doesn't come close to my union pay minimums. Indie doesn't give healthcare. Indie doesn't have a 401k or a pension or any of the myriad other things that being a union industry worker allows that was fought for by the generations of artists before us who stood up and demanded them. Not to mention a lot of us aren't interested in being business owners. We have bills to pay and don't have the time to get a business off the ground and hope it works out. A lot of people are going to struggle if they aren't already (I have friends who haven't been able to find work in over a year after working in the industry for almost a decade) and I don't appreciate that being minimized. Stan says that we have to find what the next steps look like for each of us but they all center around self employment or working with a small group of friends and I think there's a broader range of possibilities that are worth fighting for. Is it going to be easy? Of course not. But I don't like the idea of admitting defeat before the fight really begins.

[@reltcstone2]

I appreciate you pushing for our rights within the Union, man. Thank you. Its important.

[@thelaw3536]

The problem is a lot of these companies like disney or in games like Ubisoft aren't actually doing well. If they're not just flodering they make most of their money via a small subset of popular games like assassin creed. You just don't need the number of people who have been hired. If wages don't go down this was always going to be the reality.

[@scarletsletter4466]

Exactly. I work in concept art for film/ games, & like you I’m mid-career and established so we’re probably not impacted quite as much, but I know many artists who can’t get work after a decade in the industry. AI seems to be impacting 3D & technical artists/ GFX the worst so far. Over 10 million Americans work in the creative industry (in games, film, publishing, advertising, etc). I’d bet that less than 0.05% are business owners. I’ve done that myself & have a side business painting murals, but I wouldn’t want to hustle like that 24-7 or go without health insurance & other union/ employment benefits. I think Stan may take for granted that he’s the 0.05% who’s a successful entrepreneur, but that’s not an option for most people.

[@pibyte]

Recapitulation: we are all screwed. But let's doodle anyway.

[@davidart0128]

I met with Disney artist James Mulligan back in April of this year. When I asked him how to have an edge in this industry with the rise of AI, he said to stick with the traditional forms of visual art. That's proven to show through all of the new things in our industry. I've also learned that it's great to have an awesome portfolio, but it's even better to have a network of people who believe in your work and who you can support in return.

[@Draftsmen]

He's giving great wisdom there!

[@dchromat]

It’s always a good day when there’s more Draftsmen to listen to

[@DennisCNolasco]

Regarding Stan's comment on not seeing Proko enrollment drop, I think a good answer to that is that most people taking his courses are doing it mostly for the love of getting good at art--getting a job isn't a main priority.

[@DennisCNolasco]

I guess Marshall said the same thing afterwards :P

[@pibyte]

Marshall: "Yes, we will all die, but people have died all the time." Stan: "This is not making me feel any better." Peak Podcasting XD

[@gerimi]

I really hope that if you continue doing the podcast, that you will revisit the “State of the Art Industry “ topic every year. In fact, even if you guys do take another break, (temporary or permanent) please consider doing this topic once a year. If you proved anything with this episode, it’s that the nature and business of creativity is ever-evolving. Thanks for the great conversation 😊

[@heartsandrocks]

i love you marshall, you talk about uncomfortable topics in such a comforting way

[@hawkedarkwizart8924]

Sure wish Mr. Vandruff had enough time to finish his sentences without being derailed...anyways, I think the main problem might be that the Money People and companies don't care about putting out good products. People with knowledge are replacable *to them* because they want to rake in more money while spending less, which necessitates either horribly underpaying or simply putting out generated or poorly researched slop on a massive scale. Probably a good thing most of us likely won't stop drawing either way.

[@njmidiot337]

Really appreciate Marshall's groundedness here. recognizing that the forces that turned detroit from a automative boomtown to a city on the decline are being parrellled in similar ways in the art industry today is a very wise observation

[@gabudaichamuda2545]

The arts began to decline as far back as when the Circus Politick first entered the fray. Liberal thinking hijacked the arts first because they knew it was a source of beauty, encouragement and truth. From there the visual arts became industrialized and exploited. Look up a documentary called "Why Beauty Matters" by Sir Roger Scruton. It'll tell you more.

[@pktdbgnzwl]

And that the city is on the decline because the auto industry pulled the rug out without investing in a bridge to a new future.

[@genreartwithjb5095]

@@pktdbgnzwlI mean the bridge to the future like have been stronger protections against offshoring and around automation

[@Fisher-yt8nw]

Marshall is the most patient man alive. I had to stop this video multiple times I got so frustrated with how dense and arrogant proko comes off throughout this entire conversation. The fact that he missed every hint Marshall dropped, maybe even the whole point of the video, that this was an ai thing and that circumstances have changed to the point you can no longer just shrug off layoffs as a bust soon to be followed by a boom. When he isn’t just completely missing the point he falls back onto his own, clearly limited and insulated, experience in the art world, or his peers who are already successful. Yes art directors aren’t going away any time soon but that’s not what we are worried about, we are worried that the path to becoming an art director, those low level jobs you gain experience and connections through, while making some kind of a living, are going to be completely obliterated.

[@Draftsmen]

We're definitely in the middle of a seismic shift for the creative industries. In a time that's as unknowable as this, the best things we can do is look back on the way artists have dealt with previous waves of changes and learn what we can to hopefully apply that to now. It won't have all the answers but it's one of the best tools we've got. There's a very real problem with the lack of entry level positions that people can work upwards from and become the new experienced leadership. We don't have all of the answers but will discuss the topics as we can, while relying on the conversation we've had with creatives in different fields. This is a problem that needs to be addressed and is something that we've seen in creative fields in decades past. We haven't found a solid fix for it but there are many things that independent artists do that can help them sharpen those skills even if the businesses fail to. In no way is our experience limited to people who have already made it, though. We're two teachers who by the very nature of the job are regularly having conversations with novice artist, intermediate artists, people who work in one field looking to learn about another and re-spec into another field as well as talking to accomplished professionals.

[@Fisher-yt8nw]

@@Draftsmen I’d like to apologize, this is obviously a topic I care about a lot and while I was frustrated I was also unnecessarily harsh. I do think focusing on paths forward is ultimately much more useful than focusing on how bad things are now or could be in the future

[@Draftsmen]

You're good! Caring about it a lot is a good thing and we need that to be able to get ourselves through every new challenge. We won't always get it right but we'll always try to add anything positive we can into the conversation. Thanks for replying. We'll get through this mess together! 🫡

[@Deedeedoodad]

54:34 it always cracks me up when they have a moment of reflection on what random things they ended up discussing in each episode 😭

[@genreartwithjb5095]

Marshall looking at the situation rationally bc he’s lived through it.

[@andersoncarmo2992]

years ago , I used to follow religiously to this podcast to improve my english by listen to Marshall and Stan, even not being a Artist , just because I like the subject and used to draw when a kid. Maybe, that can be part of the new future, making things for people so they can learn something and feel good,nspired and interact . it's so satisfying to get back listening to you guys talking again .

[@YoshiMario69]

Before I even watch the video I just wanna say THANK YOU, Charlie, Stan, Marshall, Christian, and all the rest of you beautiful team that we don´t get to see. You guys have been PIVOTAL in the maintaining of the flame of love of the arts for SO MANY PEOPLE. I would have never worked up the courage to dedicate so much of my life to art again after turning 30 had it not been for you guys. Your love and dedication to the teaching of the arts, in spite of how damn difficult it is to survive and make art, let alone survive by making art, it´s just something so precious. I saved up my money, I bought some Proko courses, I bought Marshall´s old videos, and I just RAN WITH IT. Where the hell am I headed? I don´t f*cking know and I don´t care - the sheer joy of being on the path of Mastery thanks to your support has been an oasis in the desert of life. You will probably never understand just how much all of you people´s work matters to so many of us and all we can say is THANK YOU, and SUPER THANK YOU for making more DRAFTSMEN PODCAST EPISODES

[@reltcstone2]

Sorry but i really think Stan had a super shallow take on all of this for that whole starting section and he kept trying to make jokes instead of really look at the situation or empathize with what people are going through right now in the industry outside of his circle. I totally agree with marshall when he said stan sounded like the queen when she said let them eat cake. I do agree with the idea that no matter of weather or not you have an art job, you can take solace in making your art to the best of your ability and still approach it as a business etc. I really don't like stan objecting to giving any advice for any circumstance within the arts industry at the current time just because there are so many different circumstances and elements to it. Was just a throwing of the white flag because it was too complex a subject. Stan was literally saying shit like "well i mean its not just gonna be all butterflies and sprinkles", his absolute lack of taking the subject seriously is practically insulting. Marshall was really holding it down with the episode with the problem breakdown section and getting into the vance kovacs and justin sweet portion. I do agree with stan's point that there will likely be an influx of a lot of small teams and companies creating products that are competing with the larger products. I myself founded a small game studio and am producing a metroidvania, and so I'm partaking in that side of this situation as we speak. Stan, while you may not have yucked marshall's yum, i do feel you yucked my yum while you were smacking your venison stick into the microphone while failing to realize that knowing how to create a perspective distortion in photoshop is in fact problem solving. Stan shutting down literally any art topic like art illusions as soon as they come up make him a really bad host for an art discussion podcast quite frankly because its an entirely unhelpful foil. Marshall has to jut in and say that weather you're interested in perspective illusions or not stan, this is for the audience, in order to get the goods to the viewers. I also agree with stan's instinct that there will be a retraction from the digital into the physical world and interacting with real people, and things.

[@user-ji1ow4gq8z]

Im so happy the draftsman podcast is making more episodes 😭

[@pktdbgnzwl]

Side note: Those artists who are outside the entertainment and gaming industries don't make their living selling individual pieces to collectors. They make their living teaching art skills.

[@SerenaMarenco]

When I asked to study art 30 years ago, my father told me, "You'll be starwing." I answered him, "I can always do a day job until things we'll better." I started with terrible perspectives, I saw the crisis, I saw the covid,I'm still doing art. And I haven't the tools kids have today.

[@randominternetuser2]

Proko seems more and more out of touch, Marshall is the GOAT though

[@pulguinha1303]

I have this feeling too. I guess the enterpreneur "mindset" ends up making a lot of people believe too hard in meritocracy and it ends up simplifying deep topics like the one from this episode.

[@randominternetuser2]

@@pulguinha1303 well said

[@scarletsletter4466]

Yes I have noticed many entrepreneurs have the “survivorship bias” issue. They are in the tiny fraction of successful entrepreneurs so they think everybody can do it

[@andygomez3dart]

That's another good point from Marshall. Naming the threats. The saturated markets. Too much content only is good for the consumer not for who produces it that's how I see it.

[@TheWatermelonSunrise]

The young guy feels like he is talking from a very safe point of view. He gets to clichés because he obviously does not have any skin in the game. Good for him but this is not the reality with most people. When the older gentleman says businesses close and people lose jobs that they have for 15 years, you can not be saying that happens and that people adapt. Sure, they do, but the bank you pay your mortgage to does not wait for it. Neither cold baths will help you when you stress about paying the bills. These generic clichés apply if you have your money problems solved. And that’s also the attitude that bleeds into art education. The majority of the students do not understand either the resilience, the actual skill, the commitment, or the backup that is needed. Institutions only care about money, and the quality of graduates drops massively. So, no skill or quality of workforce is guaranteed from an art school while getting a mass of graduates, with half of them unable to do a good job and AI, something that shouldn't be a problem really, actually being better than them. Plus the fact that the number of jobs fluctuates, recession, changes, and all that stuff and the creative industry gets clogged.

[@damielsuarez8881]

I couldn’t be happier to know there are more draftsman episodes to listen to

[@mack7207]

I think the thing to keep in mind is the vast difference between something’s potential, and what is actually happening.

[@JesseMartin]

A new draftsmen episode means it will be a good day

[@capdan_]

Thank you for this episode I really needed the encouragement. I graduated art school in 2023 got my first full-time job in book publishing and just got laid off. I'm going to keep working hard and opportunities will open. Thank you both.

[@Draftsmen]

Hope it helps!

[@G3rex]

This was like a 2 minute aside in the podcast, and Marshal even laughed about it, but cold therapy is absolute woo/alternative medicine. Please don't waste the money and time intentionally freezing yourself, hoping it'll have any real effect other than forcing your body to produce adrenaline for a few minutes due to the unexpected thermal shock.

[@monicalopezpinzonart]

9:06 This is the first step, there are so many variables. There is no one way to make it as an artist. Thank you, such a good episode

[@SnuubScadoob]

These men be draftin'!!! And I'm here for it! 🎨

[@Draftsmen]

💪

[@genreartwithjb5095]

Marshall leading Proko on like a dog using the Socratic Method. Brilliant. We are watching Marshall literally take Proko to school. 😂

[@ftg-n8n]

he is the good teacher after all

[@davidtrejo5567]

I always enjoy drafstmen podcasts and I'm glad I had the evening off to watch it in full. I'm honestly amazed at how easily Marshall connects the ideas of what you guys talk about with quotes from books and I loved the part where you talked about building a strong mindset to be prepared for any difficulties. I really appreciate your talks.

[@Grotesqu]

i love this episode so much, something ends and something begins

[@AG-up7kx]

14:37 THANK YOU MARSHALL

[@ursamajorgamma6429]

I appreciate this episode so much, as one of those 20 somethings struggling to find my way. There is hope, I’ll figure it out, it just may not happen the way I think it will. EDIT UPDATE: Something happened quicker than I thought it would! I got accepted to my first artist alley! I’m very excited but I know there’s still a long road ahead of me 🥹

[@soonlovesartandpeace]

Thank you guys for being real and informative. So many useful suggestions and perspectives. 😊

[@claudiafinelle7252]

Marshall is so sharp

[@felisyaalaudina5140]

this podcast makes me wish marshall have like 1000 courses

[@moorecreativ]

coming from the graphic design world, i can say a lot of similar things you guys have touched on here. its rough out there right now for everyone at all levels. i dont know how much generative AI has played a role in that, but it has to be part of it. my optimistic take remains that these current pains will subside with time. the general public hasn't reacted well to gAI, the products are very expensive to build and maintain, have growing legal trouble, and there are at least some Designers like myself not interested in using tools that take away from creative process and also do harm to our creative peers-all with a monthly fee. i also agree that the new future for creative professionals (or hobbyists) may include smaller but stronger real world communities and products. my fear though is that everything might break up into fractions that are too small to maintain a living for anyone. but if clients can see that replacing professionals with cheap amateurs and gAI does not yield the value they hoped for, things will swing back in favor of creative skills. also, so happy the Draftsmen pod is back!

[@alejandromolinac]

Huh? right out there now? it's been like that for over 25 years when pirating photoshop, EVERYBODY became a "designer" and the salaries began to plummet into the toilet.

[@jaoartfolio4859]

I just love hearing Stan and Marshall talk. Don't be discouraged, theres going to be a better future ahead. I believe that.

[@haze7948]

I love you guys so much. The way Marshall jokes about his mortality spooks me, I have to meet you two one day! Thanks for the show.

[@jameshunter1085]

So nice to have you guys back. I spend much of my painting/picture making time with you both in the background. Thanks so much.

[@Swikart]

I just love this podcast so much. The flow of your conversations, coupled with the immense knowledge and profound perspectives you both bring, is just invaluable to me. Every time I listen, I'm not just learning - I'm reigniting that "creative spark" that sometimes seems to fade (that sounded cheesy, but I don't know any better way to put it, I'm sorry :D). The way you articulate and discuss complex subjects is unmatched in my opinion. No other podcast or resource in the art and illustration world comes close to what I get out of these conversations between you two. Thank you so much for coming back with more episodes! :)

[@zander8347]

I lost my industry jobs 2 years ago and couldn't find another. Now i'm doing something else entirely and are much happier when art is a hobby instead of a job lol.

[@ross1779]

You guys are awesome and your content makes the world a better place!

[@mobuckey]

I love art enough to die doing it whether I’m successful or not, period. And I love this podcast! So happy you’re back 💕🎨

[@milkbread5036]

I appreciate the honesty on this subject. I want to hear those with experience to give it to me straight instead of saying everything is great when it isn't.

[@artistzhna]

Thanks for your perspective. Since I am preparing for my Fall courses and setting up the curriculum, this will help. Part of my goal will be assisting students understanding of pros & cons of AI.I don’t teach art but teach thinking. Topic affects multiple disciplines.

[@Draftsmen]

Glad it was helpful!

[@DaveThomas123]

The highlight of my day.

[@phillipmurphy842]

Many of these art schools closed due to poor real estate speculation connected to specific board member’s influences. Tuitions also became absurd.

[@KoongYe]

Proko, people around you are well-adjusted industry professionals. If there are few people left able to make art as a living, they are it. When there's gonna be 1 job left where 99 were taken over by machine, your people will be taking that 1 job. So, they have nothing to be afraid of. People in the internet are mostly students that have no industry experience to put on the resume. And with how nepotistic art industry is, these student will have zero chance of getting that one job. Also, interest in art has nothing to do with it's prospect as a career. I would still do art when I have to force myself to do a 9-5 factory job. It's the will to express themselves that motivate people to learn art. Making a living out of it is the best thing, but not the be-all end-all. Not everyone is business minded like you. No one start art thinking they will be a billionaire. Finally, I really find it annoying how you think people mad at current state of things are just lazy people who can't adjust. Most people don't have a problem with AI being there. It's how they are trained (off of those people's art) and how they are used against artist that are making people angry. I don't get how you don't understand the frustration. Let's say you are a baker. Some thief comes up and steal your formula/recipe and make a factory out of it selling it to millions and put you out of business. Do you say "suck it up and adjust"? Is that the right response to injustice? When such bad behaviors are rewarded, who's to say they won't do the same thing to the next thing you try to do?

[@randominternetuser2]

Well said! He sounds really out of touch in this episode (more so than usual), i had to turn it off.

[@alejandromolinac]

Dumb analysis.... Bakeries still exist....

[@someone1861]

>Some thief comes up and steal your formula/recipe and make a factory out of it selling it to millions and put you out of business. Would you rather AI companies to pay Disney and other large corporations, who own a bunch of stuff, for their data? I mean, it would be pretty good for disney shareholders, but it wouldn't change anything to the artists who created the thing. Cause, many artists suing those AI companies they made works for all those large corporations, works which they don't own the rights. Getting angry because "they trained on your data without consent" is a flawed premise. In short, the whole argument and outrages misses the point that many artists sold their creations for money through out the decades through work-for-hired.

[@unclebebop]

Just got into the creation side of art in February this year(2024). Found yalls podcast and started to binge it immediately; only to come upon season three and see you guys were ending the podcast. Now as I'm ending season three and was about to start to pester you guys on social to do another season, I see you guys start to upload a new season.🙏 Long story short I'm ecstatic yall are doing another season, and look forward to whatever you guys put out. P.S. Marshall is my fav part of the podcast, Stan your a close sec.

[@Elvira_Axen]

Really refreshing and encouraging episode! I'm one of the lucky few who has an animation job during these trying times and I feel so lucky, but I keep telling myself that probably even I will face a time where I don't have work, but when I do I will handle it. Even doing a non-art related job is totally fine. As long as I get to draw im happy.

[@heroiam4067]

Marshall has some good points on the topic but, as often happens, I think Proko doesn’t have much to offer to the disccussion and resorts to overly simplistic takes that just revolve around anecdotal evidences and his surface impressions of very complex subjects. I believe he feels his takes are really smart and “out of the box” but they are not actually adding much to the discussion other than dumbing it down, It would have been great to have an actual industry artist talking with Marshall here. The survivorship bias is super strong with Proko, he’s not as witty as he thinks he is, at least during these podcasts.

[@kiplingbassil]

So much wisdom in this one. Thanks guys!

[@Okayletsg0]

art student from australia here in my senior year I really resonated with what you guys had to say about adaptation and community :)

[@TaffyCinnamon]

Awesome show as always

[@honey3762]

Yay! Thank you for making more episodes! I love this podcast. It is my favoritiest 5ever

[@matthijsveen]

What breaks my heart is all the people who would otherwise be amazing artists giving up because of AI. I have to keep reminding myself that AI is nothing at all without the work it stole from people. Please don't give up! Please!!

[@rutgergullan4595]

It is indeed sad but let’s be honest those people would never be great artist if ai is all it took to make them stop doing art

[@thethinker2688]

If it makes you feel any better Matt, one of the reasons I got into art was because I wanted to prove I could do better than AI.

[@alejandromolinac]

Nah..... just by surface lever observation... people whining about Ai are usually people with amateur/mediocre skill level..... The perennial anime/furry/fan art shipper types.... tons of skilled art people on social media don't even talk about it....

[@SpaceBandit666]

@@alejandromolinac that is not true at all, Michael Whelan, Loish, and Greg Rutkowski are just a few incredibly skilled artists who don’t agree with that shit.

[@SpaceBandit666]

@@alejandromolinac also, I see you’ve made several troll comments here, go to bed dude

[@Jujube-CA]

This brings me joy! Thanks!

[@topblokehere6579]

Holy shit. You guys are back!!!!!

[@PeppoMusic]

18:40 "Some of the greatest artists of history did their best work as amateurs." - Unsurprisingly, I might add, with a word coming from "amator" or Latin for "lover". It is really something special when something is made from the passion and love of wanting to make that thing, instead of as a means to pay the bills.

[@Dbzlatino27]

Im 27 and dont have the luxury of time at this point of my life and have spent too much time honing my skills to being able to work from this but haven't got a single job on all these years, i feel many people have this fear and anxiety when are on situations similar to me and doesnt help when there is nothing solid at the end of the tunnel.

[@pampamtamtam4001]

I'm flying by the seat of my pants with a goal of video game concept art or illustration as a career, because I want to work on something I love. Hopefully the future will allow for that. I appreciate the notion that honing your craft and showing honest effort and results will always be respected. This was a fun listen!

[@andrewchambers9752]

Many art schools only give their students the skills to become art professors, not art professionals. It is a big difference. Art students now have many educational opportunities, which are far more affordable than a BFA or MFA degree. I have a BFA that never helped me land an art job. I know many other artists who never bothered with a degree, but still found a way to earn a living making and selling art.

[@alejandromolinac]

Ha! Art schools are the biggest scams ever! Specially current year

[@gamerheroine]

Those peanut butter snacks are great. I highly recommend any of them with crunchy bits. Once you try it, it's hard to go back to the basic one. Ate those on my lunches at work for a few years.

[@BoxoBrando]

Just to Touch on the Cold Plunges, the hardest part about doing a Ice Bath is not talking about it online

[@Draftsmen]

🤣

[@johnwiforsen4810]

Life is art. Art is life!

[@Magical-2011]

Where are you guys love the podcast❤😊

[@christinecharpentier9134]

I’m very old for art, 56. I am an amateur artist and I do not delude myself into thinking that I can sell my art with professional artist with a million more skills than I will ever have are having trouble selling art. If I were to sell something, I’d be happy, but I don’t expect that to happen. So I happily take free “commissions “ from friends and family for my level of art skill. Both of you have helped me immensely with my journey. Please continue the Draftsman podcast videos! By the way, Stan, Bougereau is my favorite artist as well. I marvel at his skill

[@alejandromolinac]

Don't be discouraged..... There's a gazillion people constantly selling with a low skill level.... Constancy and word of mouth can be a huge boost....

[@HighCaloricSurplus]

You should try and become as skilled as possible to try and compete with the pros. You could be a living experiment to demonstrate how good someone could actually get starting from middle age.

[@heiispoon3017]

Oooh its up!! EDIT These days learning "how to be miserable" is probably going to be a key. Thriving while "suffering" (in moderate amounts) is another perspective. But the punch is knowing why you WANT to suffer. Right now, truly figuring "what I want" through doing personal projects while I am able to, is the only thing driving me to get up from the bed the moment I wake up. Maybe...it truly is what it is. (or probably I have gone insane!) Interesting discussions, I probably need to rewatch this episode on a later day

[@zimoart]

But the reflection on movie industry and how in history an specific industry will be filled with "It's over" reactions and speculation but it stills goes on, it is indeed hopeful and encouraging for me. I'm graduating in journalism and one thing we learn about communication and it's history is that this kind of struggle is not new, it always appears from time to time and are always misinterpreted. When tv came along, people thought radio will be over, and guess what? It didn't. Same thing with tv times later and internet breaking through. So I don't know, it might not be exactly the same as comparing to the whole AI issue but it still is a reflection that, as a communicator and seen art still as communication too, gives me hope that it might be the same case. (that ofc doesn't change the fact that it's going to be tough and that we'll have lots to fight for, including our rights and not just accepting the "guess we're all going to be entrepreneurs with our own small business" situation. don't agree to that one bit, don't think it's fair or that it's the only path possible in this "we'll have to adapt to the changes" speech)

[@vp3841]

I feel like this episode highlights a major flaw of the podcast that was always there, but now is impossible to overlook any longer: Stan is a great artist with a fantastic knowledge of anatomy, but in any conversations requiring any broader knowledge, be it historical, or of societal issues or in just the simplest matters of general human interaction he has the knowledge and reasoning skills of a 15 year old. Always interrupting, constantly derailing the conversation, trying to chime in with some banality whenever the topic gets complex (exactly when it usually gets really interesting), not following what Marshall is talking about, then derailing again with "what do you mean?" although if I'm anything like the average listener, it's always perfectly clear what he means... I could go on. I've been with you from the start and Draftsmen is a podcast that I always felt could be a favorite if only it didn't constantly turn into a conversation between an intelligent and erudite adult and a petulant child who always tries to dumb down what's being said or turn the attention back on himself. Maybe it's a result of listening to too much stuff by typical popular business podcast hosts that can't offer anything more informative than "Wow, that's crazy man", maybe Stan is just more business than art oriented and people talk like that in his circles, I don't know. I always attributed it to the fact that it's hard to say something new about art-related topics - historically everything's been basically said, every advice given. But with today's theme there were so many avenues to explore, so many things to touch on and Marshall's historical parallels were incredibly interesting to listen to (I'd love to listen to 3-5 hours of his takes on this, but alas). But with Stan it's the usual "welp, I'm doing ok, so I guess stay positive guys!" There was so much you could do to actually turn your part of the conversation into something productive: look up layoff figures, ask other teachers how their students are doing, reach out to industry professionals not in your immediate circle (people who would talk to you, but who average art students don't have access to) etc. Anything to actually help your audience to see the current landscape at least a little bit. If you can't do that then invite people who can or at least don't actively get in the way of your cohost's attempts to clear the air. I don't like leaving this comment, but this episode feels like such a lost opportunity. If anyone can point me to industry professionals who have a more objective and informative look on what's currently happening, I would appreciate any suggestions.

[@khoahthong4434]

i'm lucky enough to be teaching art at the high school that i went to when i was young. "lucky" because i get to know and teach students who have no care in the world what is happening in the '"industry". while i'd say i try to prepare them for the industry in the future, they are the ones who constantly reminding me that teaching and learning art foundations will never be out of 'style', and the love and urge to create will not change with the industry. the ones who think they would fall behind because of AI, would have fallen behind due to competition from their piers anyways.

[@LiveRaidei]

wow, I thought you guys stopped making these lol. Im hype!

[@abdullahnaim10]

wow cant believe the draftsman are back!

[@agkview]

Yay Draftsmen is back

[@15clank]

The future is headed towards a world like the movie Alien . Everyone will be a space trucker or a soldier or a tradesman . You will travel to space and go to a space station but the computers will control everything, and you’ll just be a plumber in space .

[@zanettilla]

Prosperity is just around the corner.... So sad we live in a round world I guess LET'S ALL DANCE UNTIL WE FORGET OUR FUTILE EXTISTANCE!!!!

[@eshlost5604]

Babe wake up, new draftsmen episode is out

[@user-vj4tk6jw8i]

It's even harder when you have "artists" like ErgoJosh and Adam Duff just telling artists to suck it up and take it. Completely disregarding those that aren't established artists and those that lost their jobs because of AI

[@gantilz865]

Yeah. At the end of the day it's "either I eat today, either I don't". I understand positivity thing, obviously better to keep a look for opportunities , your are not gonna keep that with an "everything is doomed" attitude, sure. But when you are gonna lose your house, your job , you are losing tons of money on an useless degree... Things are not abstract. And it is not like surviving-jobs are alway easy to get either. You can be denied accees to a cacheer job just because you compete against 50 other candidates. Also, it's a lot of " I got an hernia at 35 "jobs, " I work and sleep in my car" jobs, It's " All my managers are manipulative assholes and the hours don't allow me to get a social life because I work at night" jobs, with at many time, the quasi certitude that you are gonna stay stuck here for the rest of your life.... Tell those people to stay positive...

[@cheekyqueefs]

Man up

[@ndidgenous]

Thank you 🙏 yes it is

[@fernandocamarillo3710]

10:07 this is the reason I listen to the podcast lol

[@mitchelljackson8586]

In reference to the conversation about cold showers & Andrew Huberman, check out Greg Doucette & Renaissance Periodization for another point of view. I don't trust any fitness influencers but look for who is backing up their claims with legitimate research. These guys are all selling something but that doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means you need to be skeptical.

[@gregpanasiuk5377]

Let’s go ! More please !

[@mbfrezon]

I've been thinking about this since it came out (a good thing) and I think you sort of glossed over that studying hard, being driven to "succeed" doesn't mean you'll end up getting your living from art. And many people do work jobs related or unrelated to their art, be it writing or visual, while working steadily at what is most important to them. I was sometimes asked in work reviews or by coworkers why I chose to work where I did and I would answer frankly - for the money - the money to pay for my life and my art supplies. (yes people were shocked.) I didn't pursue a "career" there because I saved my energy and attention for what was really important - trying to grow as an artist. And, I preached to my young co-workers that they needed a life outside the paid gig because otherwise why? In a tech world that valued "creatives" they spoke proudly about people who had musician side gigs but never really figured out visual artists.

[@caseyhald]

I didn't make it as a professional artist. I chose web design-and now I'm making a livable wage. I just did a book illustration for a friend for fun, and enjoyed the hell out of the process. You can still enjoy making art even if you don't "make it."

[@Draftsmen]

A great example. Glad you found a path, Casey!

[@Yithmir]

I have been enjoying Stan's Snack segments, now I'm depressed and have food to eat!! In all seriousness tho, I am a snacker. Can we get a snacks for while you work segments on the show 😄

[@tomashernandez828]

thank you for sharing folks!!

[@brand0n818]

I love hearing Marshall talk and listing to all his wisdom, but then Stan interrupts with some kind of objection. Any little flaw Marsh says and Stan calls it out. Sometimes he's right, but sometimes it's just nit picking that just interrupts the flow of the conversation. I love the draftsmen podcast and have listen to a lot of them and I appreciate Stans perspective on things. It just would be a better listen if Stan didn't challenge everything Marshall says.

[@michelangelo_6933]

I’d like a Marshall-only podcast please.

[@Draftsmen]

That's what his perspective course is, I guess lol proko.com/perspective

[@WilfrionWil]

Completely unrelated question: From what I've seen of Marshall's videos, he seems to emphasize play, or a daring and expressive approach to sketching, to artists who are sometimes impeded by self-doubt and arduous study. I'm curious what advice he has for artists on the other side of the coin, who like to play rather than work.

[@agendaured]

Looks up art related jobs, comes up with Ai training positions.

[@OJR-vs1fg]

What do you do at the end of the world? The farmer farms. The fisherman goes to fish.

[@creamsiclecat]

I love drawing! But I have a corporate job haha. Im definitely a hobbyist and I wouldnt wanna work as an artist lol. So I definitely think a bunch of hobbyists like me are dabbling into arts since our day to day is very cookie cutter

[@45whitedragon]

SO TEMPTED to go meta-podcast about this episode, (someone tag Haberman pretty please). The little economies with a teacher will stay since they tend to be hobbyist related, and the doom and gloom may not be removed, ever, they must be the drivers for enough creativity in difficult times. At least that's what I keep telling myself.

[@lorawaring883]

Art endures. Artists have to create, whether or not we get paid...but it sure helps. Animation has always had good and bad times. Art is. (plus all the other cliche-y things Proko said. Just cause it's a cliche don't mean it's not true)

[@HighCaloricSurplus]

Teaching art seems to be a safer bet. The majority of the successful art channels on youtube make a living off of tutorials. I dont think thats by accident, its just whats most popular. Making a career through youtube/social media appears more obtainable than struggling to find work in the real world, considering how hyper-competitive and unreliable it can be, and especially with AI replacing jobs in the industry. The guy that teaches doesnt need to worry as much whats going on in the job market. Chances are he'll always have students. Does the guy that teaches economics, buisness, history, or basket weaving at a college have to worry if those jobs are in high demand or even practical outside of the teaching environment?

[@RisenPhoenix68]

It's very competitive, especially when EVERYBODY is pursuing that "glamorous" art career instead of going for the plumbing jobs, or jobs in the sewers.

[@scarletsletter4466]

😂 ironically, the trades are some of the highest paid professions in the northeast right now. If you want to be a master electrician you’re guaranteed to be a millionaire by 35 if you’re willing to save & you know how to manage a team