Stock vs Modified Honda Civic Type R - Thunderhill Track Test

Journalists have been RAVING about the Honda FK8 Civic Type R since its debut, praising its chassis dynamics and super fast lap times versus other hot hatches. Let's set a base lap time in a bone stock Type R, then see what a properly modified CTR with wheels/tires, suspension, brakes, and a bit of aero (and basically stock power) can pull off at Thunderhill Raceway.
Dave's Instagram: / i_am_racer_x
Jami's Instagram: / silentnsx

[@roochiecooch]

The torque steer has a lot less to do with the size of the wheels compared to stock, more to do with where the centerline of the wheel is. The Stock wheels have their center line in a position that lines up perfectly with the modified steering knuckle that is only on the front suspension of the Type R out of all of this Gen's Civic Chassis. So when you change the wheels, unless you get the offset just right and have the centerline in the same spot while having equal lengths on either side of the center line of the wheel that lines up perfectly with a knuckly that is a pivot point for steering components, then you'll amplify the amount of torque steer. So if you're going to put after market wheels on a Type R it's worth doing some research on how they set up the original front wheels (Offset and width wise) and doing your best to imitate that same width and offset but while downsizing, which is what I'm assuming most track builds are going to do, since 20 inch wheels generally aren't all that common a choice for track builds. Sure they look good and fill out the wheel wells for the Daily Driver Model, but for track use, you're going to want a little more meat and side wall, that way high speed corners aren't going to nearly roll you onto your bead and debead mid corner because a tiny rock wedges itself in there or something. End mini rant. Anyway, just thought I'd point out it's not the actual fact that they're 20's that eliminates most of the Torque Steer, but the fact that the Center line and offset is set up to line up with a pivoting knuckle in the steering to have equal lengths of the tire on each side of the pivot.

[@jihadjoe]

That pretty much means you need to have the same offset as the stock wheels, which in the FK8 is 60mm.

[@jameshuegli3534]

The problem is most wheels won’t have that +60 offset. My type R us arriving in a few days and I so badly want to go down to 18s for comfort but hate the idea of introducing torque steer because most wheels don’t get closer than a +45 offset outside of the NSX Y spoke/Motegi 924s.

[@AdamD19D]

@@jihadjoe Nah. Almost all of it is mitigated by the suspension geometry, offset has little effect. I put some real wheels on mine 18x9.5 +45 Weddsports TC105x with 265 wide tires and in addition to the 35 series sidewall making the ride quality infinitely better, the 17 pound wheels (compared to the stock ones that are 29) handle much much better for acceleration, braking, and cornering. Pretty significant reduction in unsprung weight. With full bolt ons and a hondata tune for 93octane my torque is much higher than stock. I went on a 4 lane wide highway driving in the middle (since the sides slope down for runoff and the car would veer that way anyway) took my hands off the wheel and floored it and the car just pulled straight like it should. Spirited driving on backroads if you're giving it heavy throttle through a tight bend the steering wheel will lose sensitivity but that's pretty normal for FWD. I hated the stock wheels and tires. The tires handled great for the first 4k miles but after that they always felt really greasy. The +60 offset looks pretty bad on this car too, it puts the wheels too recessed into the wheel well. +45 gets them perfectly flush. Don't listen to anything in that BS road and track article about downsizing wheels. Anyone that actually tracks their FK8 runs 18s. The 20s suck, plus the wheels chunk and get destroyed easily being so thin and having all that force put on them.

[@DoubleOSevan]

I’m trying to convince myself that I don’t need one...this video doesn’t help haha! Great content as usual!

[@zupinu2000]

But you don't need one. You want one however.

[@chucksimonds5164]

The torque steer isn't because of the wheel/tire size, it's caused by the non-stock offset of the wheels.

[@tylert1762]

Offset is size though

[@autoenthused]

exactly.

[@FlyinGato]

You know it's a good day when you get to drive a Type R on the track. It's the best Honda for sale today, and the best car under 40K. Change my mind...

[@Phatstuph787]

I'm assuming you mean "best new car" under 40k?

[@FlyinGato]

@@Phatstuph787 Definitely

[@twoslow2speed2000]

In the US yes, in Japan it would be a tossup between a FK8 and a S660 in regards to fun factor. For reference a FK8 would be closer to a $48K car out the door in Japan, vs $24K for a base S660 with the track oriented pads and suspension bits. Take a S660 to HKS or Spoon and get it modified with about $15K worth of upgrades and it would be doing laptimes comparable to a FK8 on most tracks due to the power to weight ratio, and not having to deal with FWD related handling quirks/limitations would be a plus too.

[@al151]

You guys are joking right? Best car under 40k? Brand new camaro ss 1le sale price is 38 grand, a mustang gt with performance package is 35 grand. With car like those around, how do you justify to pay for a civic for nearly 40 grand? You can even swap a supercharger on those cars and hit 200 mph for around 45 grand. Brand new. Faster around track and straight line!

[@Josh-dj9mv]

@@al151 Veloster N type for 26g tuned stock for $800 you're already faster then the Type R, throw in a turbo upgrade for 3g it's not even close in pricing for power lol

[@SaveTheManuals]

2:26 "where did this umbrella come from?" 🤣🤣🤣

[@FG2Zim]

Your auto revmatch is working correctly. It uses a window of rpm so it stops working if you try to down shift at a high rpm since you'll probably end up somewhere near or even above the limiter

[@doctorferdinand1003]

Such an amazing car. It’s a shame that so few people will ever appreciate the type R because non-enthusiasts like Doug have managed to malign this cars reputation. Oh well, the fewer vape kids driving these the better I suppose.

[@car-lo]

Doug is someone who isn’t a real automotive journalist.... he likes what he likes, I don’t understand when he barrows someone’s car and gets praised by people here thinking his opinion matters in real car environment.

[@Phatstuph787]

Just because someone doesn't like a car, doesn't disqualify them from being an "enthusiast." They just don't fit your idea of what an "enthusiast" should be. I wouldn't buy a Type R, does that also disqualify me from being an "enthusiast?" And Car-Lo, spoiler alert: all automotive journalists "like what they like" lol. They're people, they're full of biases. The difference between you and them is that they're paid for their opinions. That doesn't make them better or worse than you, just paid vs. not paid lol.

[@doctorferdinand1003]

FilwithanF it’s not that he doesn’t like it, it’s his reason for disliking it. He attacked the car from a position of ignorance. He didn’t understand what the car’s aero components did, so they must be stupid. The wing flexes if you push it, so it mustn’t generate downforce. He said the car is slower than all of its competition and is noticeably slower than the sti, which is false. The type r has significantly better straight line acceleration than the sti. He judged the cars handling but hustling it through a yield sign and decided it handles worse than an NA Miata. Doug reviews quirks of infotainment systems. He doesn’t understand handling dynamics and should abstain from spreading uninformed opinions.

[@car-lo]

Doctor Ferdinand You nailed it!

[@mrspencer72]

@@doctorferdinand1003 couldn't have said it any better...

[@FlyinGato]

Type R Owner Starter Kit: 18x9.5 wheels with 200TW tires. Conti SportContact 6 tires are just not good in hot lap situations.

[@iznon]

If one is going to stick with stock wheels, any opinion on which tire is best?

[@FlyinGato]

@@iznon the Continental DWS in 255 35 20 or 245 40 20

[@iznon]

@@FlyinGato thanks

[@kravon2315]

I bought the Michelin ps4s about a month ago. Way better than the stock continentals

[@iznon]

@@kravon2315 nice, good to know. I went with some cheap Achilles tires.. for science. 70$ a piece. The ride has taken a downward step indubitably.

[@upbeatmantis86]

The problem is why Yokohama doesn’t produce semi slicks for 20 inch wheels ugh

[@JorgeGameiro]

the torque steer is cancelled because the steering pinion is in the center of the wheel , so if he put wider tyres , it offsets the position of the pinion

[@twoslow2speed2000]

IMHO Some simple GPS telemetry overlays would have helped in determining where the modified Type R made up time relative to the stock Type R. Have a split screen video of the flying laps as well to have an apples to apples comparison to determine the differences in lines, braking points, etc, that you can take between a street tire vs a track oriented tire. Your complaint about the stock tires rolling over on the stock Type R can be addressed by simply aligning the car to the maxinum track alignment specs possible with the stock suspension.

[@Lucas-ie2ti]

imagine if Honda used Michelin ps4s - Honda "265, you're welcome"... really considering the new type R. i wasn't a fan of the rear on the FK8, there was just too much going on for me. The new one is elegant but yet still aggressive. super excited about it. great video bud

[@kjwong4730]

Im actually going to buy a 2019 CTR soon, and im looking to put on those exact volk wheels. Looks great.

[@jasonboyle7203]

Really informative . Will just leave mine stock apart from the rubber 👍

[@poolplexer]

AUTO REV won't work if the Revs are below a certain point. Forget the Rev number. But I'm pretty sure you were well above the point

[@ethanl3769]

Nice video! What do you think the total cost of your friends upgrades came out to? I think this car has a lot of potential! When they discontinue this car I bet people in the future are really going to miss it and it will be sought after to the car enthusiasts.

[@silligilli25]

Great vid @zygrene keep them coming!! You were throwing the modded one around pretty good.

[@brandonmolina3153]

Still cant believe this is the generation honda decided to give us a type r

[@michaeldeadwyler4034]

No one would buy the itr. We can all go on youtube and say we want this car and write all the review you want. At the end of the day, if the sales aren't good, they wont provide the car. Go out and buy the type r to show honda Americans have interest in this car. Dont wait until 10 years later to get one. Also, More type r that are bought, the easier for honda to help perfect the car of its problems.

[@steventoms7940]

Awesome track stuff, and a really watchable presenter. Well done M8, subbed 😉

[@odlanorirom]

should put a gps overlay on the video with speedometer...

[@navindralr]

really like this video. A lot of my friends have Civic Type RACE lol, and they are all stock. I keep trying to push them to mod the shit out of their car. All they do is keep them clean though lol

[@CineGui]

First time i watch your channel and man your content is great. Great analisys. Subscribing

[@EugVR6]

The principle is the same but regarding wheel size on my mk3 VR6, I found 17 inch wheels with 205/35/17 on felt like it was up on tip toes and didnt feel great to push on. Changed the wheels back to 15 inch with 205/50/15 and the car felt much better but the 17s did look good and torque steer is all part of FWD ownership....

[@rogerserafin]

Nice comparison video. Thanks for the post

[@apolloandratti7922]

Great content as always!! Very good to see this unique comparison: 1. What were the ambients temps on track? 2. Assuming neither had overheating issues, was the temperature gauge for both cars trending similarly or differently during lapping?

[@Zygrene]

Ambient temps were 45-55F. Neither car's temp gauge moved at all! Stock car has massive overheating issues when ambient temp is above 70F though.

[@LeeGoddard9]

Awesome vid. Inspired me to finally put mine round a few tracks. What "rear seat view" camera mount do you use?

[@shouldigetit]

Not even a car I'm interested in, I just like your video style! Found you from the G30 review, nice stuff!

[@catzbunn]

Stumbled upon your channel and realized you reviewed Rome’s RS! He’s a buddy of mine, cool dude. Enjoying watching your videos

[@dylansorenson2784]

Hey zygrene, does an mr2 spyder *Video* on track sound possible? Would love to hear your input on it! Edit: My poor english has led to some confusion

[@twoslow2speed2000]

FWIW: Quite a few MR2 Spyder's were tracked in the early to late 2000's. Used to see them at the track every once in a while, had a track buddy (NSX owner) that also used to own a couple of MR2 Spyder's. Make sure to get a proper functional rollbar if you plan on getting a rollbar. www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?78545-Roll-bar-with-soft-top-possible Also make sure to address the engine oil starvation issue that was present: www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?21795-Oil-Pan-Starvation

[@culgate]

Dylan Sorenson mrs is a very capable track car, but the 1zz kinda holds it back unless you swap to 2zz

[@Zygrene]

I have a buddy with 2ZZ MR2 Spyder (I did a canyon review on his car last year) so I'll see what he thinks of the idea!

[@eddiesegal5541]

Nice, cool video ! def interesting to see the differences.

[@KnuteJPhotos]

Should do a after ecu tune video

[@ianbradley7215]

In the UK we have 99 ron so have 316 bhp standard. That modded Civic though is pretty amazing.

[@charbelsrour9814]

Really good video. Your laps looked good 👍

[@coldvaper]

Why wouldn't you turn off the auto rev matching?

[@Zygrene]

I was interested to test it because it's a cool feature to have on track. Next time I'll probably try my own rev matches.

[@jimknowles5483]

How much money are the modifications parts and labor?

[@williamjohn9733]

The reason you have torque steer with the 18s is because the steering geometry was thrown off when the owner switched to 18s ..... 19s are the way to go with this car.

[@303wrx]

Great video!

[@butt5810]

this looks SO much fun

[@MrSnoop1987]

Tires play a big roll

[@sophisticated]

Is the sidewall thicker on the tires of the modified ctr? That could compensate for the oihlins.

[@Zygrene]

Yup they are 255/40/18 versus stock 245/30/20

[@mike321go]

This is an awesome comparison thanks!

[@maarten8959]

So basicly you're saying if you want to go faster buy proper tires? 4 Seconds difference doesn't seem that much if you look at the mod list. Mostly due to the better lasting tires with are effectively the cheapest upgrade on the car :)

[@kenbarclay1461]

I would love if you drove my car (e46 m3 modified) on the track. Hope to see you again this season.

[@Zygrene]

That would be an honor! Shoot me an email ([e-mail]) or DM on Instagram so we can coordinate

[@KTMcaptain]

When you say torque steer, do you mean the car wants to turn under torque, or it wants to go strait? A helical lsd should make it want to center the wheel instead of turn.

[@Zygrene]

The former - car steers when I'm trying to keep it straight. Problem doesn't exist with the stock wheels and tires. Lots of people are suggesting it's a wheel offset issue with aftermarket wheels, which makes sense.

[@seansteryu7398]

I should have taken S2k to Big Willow. My Type R rev match was acting weird, eventually it shuts itself off. Probably due to fuel suffocation coming out the corners.

[@Zygrene]

That's an interesting idea. I wonder if a fuel tank baffle would fix the rev match issues. I was only experiencing it under hard braking.

[@LapoftheWorld]

Interesting comparison. I'd be curious how much closer the times would have been with the stock CTR on the same tire. I see some overheating issues in the comments, but I don't acutely remember anyone complaining at 'XPO at t-hill in 110° conditions. Is that a thing?

[@Zygrene]

Definitely would have been interesting to test both cars on the same tires, but this video REALLY shows how limiting the stock Continentals are on track. I experienced overheating at Laguna in the stock CTR and it was only 70-80F that day.

[@LapoftheWorld]

​@@Zygrene Definitely telling on those tires. Also yeesh... I wouldn't expect 70-80F to bother a car that's ostensibly designed with some track use in mind. How long of a session did it take to put it in trouble?

[@bradchin7746]

I heard the CTR has an overheating issue. Did you or Dave faced this issue at all?

[@Zygrene]

When his car was stock, yes. Overheated easily in 70 degree weather. When he upgraded the radiator and added an oil cooler, no more issues

[@turbone54]

Floors fwd car though corners and wonders why the front gives out

[@JernejSlejko]

Am an CTR 18 owner and been on track couple of times and driving it in the same way as S2000 is not the way. FWD is completely diff approach on track. Brands Hatch 3 laps and they were still good. R mode and rev match on worked like a charm.

[@johnd9357]

The front doesn't give out though. It's the tires. The stock tires are shit. I have extremely minimal understeer issues with a052's.

[@turbone54]

@@johnd9357 the front = the front tires He is toasting the tires mid turn which is why they started understeering

[@JernejSlejko]

@@turbone54 he is doing what he is used to from driving S2000

[@johnd9357]

@@turbone54 Yes I knew what he meant. I was explaining that it isn't a fault of the car, it's the shitty greasy tires that it comes stock with.

[@JorgeGameiro]

7:00 if it's not in america, then it doesn't mean it's Japanese market, it's the every where else in the world except for america 320hp

[@cchan9186]

Did you have an issue with the rev match in the modded car as well?

[@Zygrene]

No, but I was driving differently with the modded one. Smoother overall and didn't over brake and engage ABS. Maybe that had something to do with it...

[@slowinfastout3304]

How would you compare the A05 to RE71R and Hoosier R7?

[@Zygrene]

Unfortunately I haven't tried Hoosiers and the only time I tracked on RE71R was in my NSX, driving super conservatively

[@sophisticated]

Many reviews reported the inconsistency of the rev match in the ctr. I have a feeling that the stock tires are the reason why this car rides so well but damn they're awful on track. I wonder if they would be as bad on a rwd car. The front tires are doing a lot of work in this car.

[@suiton20]

Honda did a bad job with the tires on their higher end civics. The cars is too fast for stock tires. My civic si tires can’t even stick to the road that well. My tires are worse than the hatchback sport and that’s a lower trim.

[@ginyamaa]

Does anyone know what the exhaust on the modded CTR is? Sounds amazing

[@Zygrene]

HKS

[@thatebutuoyguy788]

Were you holding up that GT2/3 or was he not able to overtake you? lol

[@nathanielc6286]

The video was ruined in the 1st few seconds. Your pal is on semi slicks

[@JernejSlejko]

What is the point of all the mods if you say "basically stock power"? Mods: intake, exhaust, intercooler and ECU done, would be Stage 1 at least 50HP more and with all mods def Stage 2 that would do min 80+ HP, and semi slicks, does not really compare to all stock and time diff was not that big. Without ECU done, there is no HP gain because of smart ECU that after just one pull on dyno, "switched" power back to stock... Love your videos, but some things just don't make sense ;)

[@Zygrene]

The owner Dave has been planning for a Hondata tune, hence he's installed the bolt ons. The next time I take the car out, it will be significantly more powerful. He's been tracking the car without the tune first to get used to the driving dynamics.

[@mpa1931]

I wished people trusted me enough to drive their cars on track.

[@grandmaster-grouch]

You need to solidify your weight transfer philosophy. Imo you never considered weight transfer on apex entry and exits. Good or bad tires weight transfer logic makes any run look smooth. Finally the driving lines of a fwd is different from a rwd on low speed corners. Hard to explain but from what im learning enter wide exit tight is for rwd enter tight and exit wide is for fwd on some corners gives the fwd cars advantage on low speed corners. Good luck!

[@urfaceistoofunny]

Anybody got the list of the mods?

[@corone2018]

This guy is driving this fast and he says he doesn’t even need the breaks 🤣🤣🤣🤣 lol that just tells you how good the cornering is on this car , too many haters out there but when this is behind them on the track saying get the fck out of the way thats when they realise shit!! TYPE R FK8 is a track weapon 🤣🤣

[@MotorsandMetal]

I'm running the Michelin PS4S on my EP3 with half the horsepower hahahaha

[@robertm2404]

next time disable the Rev match

[@xdecemberguy1]

Get a better shift knob. Improved shifting a great deal.

[@williambellisIII]

Great vid (again). So do you want a Type R?

[@Zygrene]

I still do... but might hold off for now

[@chapmanmerchant]

Dam i wish i had that track here.

[@heliflyer7]

Nice video.

[@youran1312]

@2.00 is how it will always be

[@dennisvanderben2719]

for ppl comparing the type r to mustangs/camaros : saying that a mustang gt take beat this on track is just funny... plus try bringing 4 adults and camping gear for all in a mustang lol. or a set of filming gear:D the type r is more car in every way.

[@shutupishful]

Rev match doesn’t work under 2500 rpm

[@RICO2LIVE]

I'm a type r owner

[@rjung_ch]

R-22011, nice!

[@Thomas8892Q]

Is that modded type R street legal?

[@Zygrene]

Yep - just bolt ons, no downpipe or tune

[@Namesi]

E36 > Everything

[@honda4185]

Why the fuck don't close thoose windows?? 😒😒 Would have been Much faster with closed..

[@Zygrene]

It's a rule at every track day to keep front windows open so drivers can give point bys

[@georgemavrides3434]

Why the f*ck are you running a track lap with the windows open mate? And then thinking if we can hear you!

[@m3lightweight]

Fen, I don’t approve this video because you parked illegally at the handicapped spot. LOL.

[@Mano_421]

U woulda got so many more views if u did a simple roll race 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@CLOVER_1219]

tsk tsk tsk

[@CLOVER_1219]

PS4S

[@youran1312]

Jobbo cars

[@diegoeleazar9154]

Most poeple dont track it...