Strongest Space Marine Detachments Tier List - Best and Worst in Game?

Let's talk through the detachments and formations from the new space marine codex - what's shaping up to be strong or weak?
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0:00 Intro
1:13 Tier 4
1:34 First Company Task Force
3:23 Unforgiven Task Force
4:39 Tier 3
4:58 Anvil Siege Force
7:02 Sons of Sanguinius
8:37 Champions of Russ
10:42 Stormlance Task Force
12:25 Tier 2
12:48 Firestorm Assault Force
14:37 Vanguard Spearhead
17:21 Black Spear Task Force
19:37 Tier 1
19:51 Righteous Crusaders
21:37 Ironstorm Spearhead
23:56 Gladius Task Force
26:06 Outro

[@bilbostomper]

I wonder if the solution for First Company would be to let veterans and terminator units re-roll the wound roll against the Oath target every turn.

[@2wolf5]

Would not change much. Thing is most Veteran datasheet are just okay, and detachment doesn't give you any really good buffs to counter that. It is so sad because potentially this detachment could be really cool but when you play it you just constantly get outgunned and once you get into combat your DMG output is just not that great....

[@FrankyF4Fingers]

@@2wolf5 maybe you get outgunned but first company is a lot about termis. What auspecs forgot is the -1 dmg when getting charged. 2 Termi bricks, sternguard + maybe veterands with jumppacks, Bladeguard vets and a troup of Hellblasters sounds good to me and it worked even without the Bladeguard or Jumppack guys. you get strong meele buffs, +1 to hit and stuff like that. With full wound reroll that detachmend could be rly good. Remember you can hinder you enemy from advancing by giving then no target because you can tp out your frontline Termis after enemy shooting phase and bring them back instant on your turn. Captain for reroll charges and free +1 to hit + full wound reroll seems good.

[@varethiustariel]

​@@FrankyF4Fingersyour entire strategy relies on your opponent doing something that they can simply choose not to do. Which takes the power away from the SM player so is inherently uninteresting. Also, that's weak as hell, I can just shoot your termies off the board. You can't pass 4+'s forever and I can just choose not to charge you and still win.

[@FrankyF4Fingers]

@@varethiustariel i can force them to fight in meele. I have deep strike termis every turn if i want. How is that reling on the enemy to do sth they can choose to not do?

[@2wolf5]

@@FrankyF4Fingers Terminators are really expensive with hit and miss DMG output, and there are so many things that can kill them fairly quickly. Helblasters are very good, but they are not veterans, so they can't get +1 to hit. -1 DMG is really nice, unfortunately most things in today meta will shoot at you before they charg you.... Even against space marines this detachment is just completely underpowered, if you play other factions with at least okay build lists it is hard, but then again maybe I am just bad at this game....

[@sean2549]

They could completely fix First company if they made it have either old oath or old oath for elites units.

[@basteala525]

It'd have to be old oath period. A bunch of S4/S5 1-2 damage attacks rerolling wounds isn't going to scare anyone.

[@sean2549]

@@basteala525 would just mean your forced to take sternguard and terminators in bulk.

[@memnarch129]

@@sean2549 And THATS my problem with Detachments. When GW anounnced them they said there would be "Restrictions and changes to what you can take". So far NONE of the detachments restrict or increase the taking of X unit, other then giving slight buffs to certain types of units for that detachment. I was hoping the Detachments would work like the old Captain or Warboss on bike, making x units Battleline so you could take 6 of them. Like Crusher Stampede making Monsters Battleline so you can take 6 Carnifex Broods or the Tank one allowing for like 6 Landraiders, if your that crazy. Frankly the detachments where a cool idea but GW, as per usual, half baked/half assed a really cool idea and its fallen flat on its face.

[@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs]

​@memnarch129 yeah no that's just you thinking that mate.....

[@theandromedaeffect979]

⁠@@memnarch129 uhhhh, no, that sounds dreadful. subfactions shouldn’t just be a choice of what units you spam as battleline. GW def made the right call

[@TheBiggestHistoryNerd]

As a Guard player, the Vanguard detachment is terrifying. Making us hit on 5’s while also being really squishy and not good in melee is a pretty big counter for us

[@whitee55]

Templars running the Anvil detachment for the pure hilarity of getting a crusader squad with an Ancient to over OC 100

[@travis8106]

My god

[@virumzzgaming]

I run DA and the Unforgiven Detachment and while I understand that the extras buffs when battleshocked is a bit much, it's nowhere near as bad as everyone says. I consistently win with that detachment simply due to the fact of the stratagems. I use 5 out 6 of them and the enchantments are good too. Other detachments just don't provide that yet. However, the battleshocked stuff needs adjusting.

[@PT84]

If you're playing at your local RTTs and LGS events. Unforgiven is fine, its just at the GT level its not competitive. Play what you enjoy.

[@cyanideinmycereal1077]

Tbh the relics are cool and the strats are pretty good but the extra buffs for when you’re battleshocked will literally never come up lol

[@koendeprez9815]

@@cyanideinmycereal1077 I think my opponent might disagree with you . I'm notorious for failing things like that and in turn have the bonusses proc . And I can tell you , handing out 4 devastating wounds with a thunder hammer is not so fun when you're on the receiving side . But yeah , I bet most players do roll better for their battleshock tests than I do

[@titsncid]

Terminator libby leading a full squad can give sustained and lethals for 1cp, goes to 5’s if any friendly unit is battleshocked. Pure volume of fire and being able to fish for 6’s can be strong. Def not a meta pick, but there is play there

[@Electru522]

I have found that Ravenwing Landspeeder support in the Ironstorm detachment makes it truly terrifying. The Mercy is Weakness strat on a Landspeeder Vengeance makes it a real force to be reckoned with.

[@harrumphreys4841]

Interesting! The Ravenwing Landspeeder hero grabs the advance/shoot relic, right?

[@Electru522]

@@harrumphreys4841 The Talonmaster certainly can take it! The only thing is that all the Landspeeders already have a 14" move. Giving them advance and shoot is a bit overkill in my opinion, and since they all have a 36" shooting range, there should be very few instances where they get charged and you have to fall back. The list I'm trying out now is: Azrael leading a squad of Intercessors 2 Techmarines (1 with the Lethal Hits enhancement, and the other with 0 damage failed save enhancement) 2x5 Scouts 2 Brutalist Dreadnoughts 2 Gladiator Lancers 2 Landspeeder Vengeances 2 Stormspeeder Thunderstrikes 1 Ravenwing Darkshroud And a Callidus Assassin The amount of firepower I'm bringing is just stupid. If played correctly, there is extremely little that can withstand even a single volley from a Thunderstrike followed by a Mercy is Weakness amped Vengeance.

[@wojciechprzewozniak597]

I will max out vengences, with double shoot its so much value when parked safely for those free overwatches that hit on normal

[@Kincoran]

I'm currently playing around with a fun Firestorm idea: A Stormraven Gunship transporting a Brutalis Dreadnought (with Multi-meltas), 5 Eradicators, and Iron Father Feirros! - TONS of anti-tank damage. - Movement buffs getting all of this to where you need it to be right away, while still firing everything (Hover + 20" movement + Advance + shooting with Assault). Easily able to get within that key range for both the extra +2 damage from the Melta keyword, and the +1 Strength thanks to the detachment rule. - Perfect proximity for the Dreadnought to either focus on ranged firepower or subsequent charging into melee (brilliant for a - Multiple transport stratagems. - Stratagems that further boost the threat of the Meltas on the Eradicators, on the Dreadnought, and on the Gunship. - IFF doing tons of things: [1.] healing the Gunship or the Dreadnought; [2.] Buffing the Gunship or the Dreadnought, [3.] Protecting the Eradicators (and himself) with a a 5+ FNP; and [4.] Offering them further protection in the way of posing as some degree of a threat if that unit is charged, because of his decent melee profile (while still keeping up with their ranged fire output when they're not in melee combat).

[@redspyke8227]

Have you fleshed out this list at all? I'm collecting Firestorm lists like a fucking Pokemon trainer and want to try them all.

[@toniviskari417]

I do find it is hilarious that after all complaints in the previous edition how the Iron Hands were just too dominant in the tournament play, we are right back there in this edition. Not a complaint, by the way, you could see this one coming the moment you saw the weight being put on vehicles in this version and some armies always perform better, but there is just something really funny to me about it. I guess there are just a lot of Iron Hands fans among the developers. And speaking of Iron Hands, completely unrelated to this, I do wish they'd finally address in the fluff the awkward situation of Guilliman having to realize how badly the chapter understands who their Primarch was.

[@thebarbarianninja4152]

Bobby G probably doesnt have the mental energy to start that debate with the Iron hands

[@richardmorton374]

I've really enjoyed running Firestorm. A Multi-Melta Devastator squad led by an Apothecary jumping out of a Razorback hits like a truck. Spent the game driving up to my opponents big Tyranids and dealing 30+ damage to each, then at the end of their fight phase I could jump back in to transport setting up for my next turn to roll up to the next target.

[@cruelmole]

You know that eradicators are just better at that roll right?

[@richardmorton374]

@cruelmole when you're a returning player whose army was built during 3rd-6th ed, with only the slightest dip into the index 8th era, you use what you have. No claim was made that it was the most effective, just that it was fun to do

[@notknightbean]

I feel like a lieutenant would be better as it would give you auto wounds on hit rolls of a 6, and let you fall back and shoot if you get into an unhappy melee fight. The auto wounds would also let you hurt bigger more threatening targets too. However that does sound fun and strong.

[@richardmorton374]

@notknightbean unfortunately a lieutenant isn't allowed to be attached to Devastator squads. So I went with the option that would return any that may get destroyed if the unit was shoot at but not wiped out. You are correct, if the option was available, it would definitely be on the "to try next" list. The squad has a great threat range with 12" movement from the Razorback, 3" disembark area, and 12" limit for the +1 strenght, or 6" if you target them with the Crucible of Battle statagem

[@notknightbean]

@@richardmorton374 well that is disappointing. Shame you can't take a lieutenant, he seems so perfect for the squad.

[@herbertharris8456]

I went 3-0 with a Anvil Seige at a tournament 2 weeks ago, but I only came in 3rd because i had trouble scoring, getting my units on objectives. I think with some list tweaking I could do better. I am a hardcore Imperial Fist player though, so take what i say with that in mind.

[@RSBurgener]

I hope you're able to master it. I do like the detachment, but my army is quite set up for the opposite. I don't have the units that benefit from it, really. I hope GW are open to tweaking these a little bit, they could use a little editing.

[@GrimgorRulez]

I have 2:1 so far. Tho feel like going gladius next time. I was so static it was boring. Shot down custodes and Iks, lost to superfast khorne demons

[@brendanromanczuk5556]

What was your list?

[@RSBurgener]

I've been theory crafting about the 40k siege army for a while with my Iron Warriors. It seems like you need 50% of the army as a bombardment force that moves very little. Then the other half has to be mobile melee to work the objectives. And these guys need to be very efficient points-wise because they're spread very thin. They need to cover a lot of board, be fairly durable and be able to punch up. Curiously, I think Sword Brethren and Crusader Squads would be especially good for this. So sons of Dorn, just not the yellow ones.

[@GrimgorRulez]

@@brendanromanczuk5556nothing special. Used this one but swaped in garadon and lysander in now.: [b]++ Army Roster (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Imperial Fists) [1,995pts] ++[/b] [b]+ Configuration +[/b] [b]Battle Size:[/b] 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit) [b]Detachment:[/b] Anvil Siege Force [b]Show/Hide Options:[/b] Agents of the Imperium are visible, Imperial Knights are visible, Legends are visible, Titans are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible [b]+ Epic Hero +[/b] [b]Darnath Lysander [100pts][/b] [b]Tor Garadon [90pts][/b] [b]+ Character +[/b] [b]Apothecary Biologis [80pts]:[/b] Architect of War [b]Lieutenant [65pts]:[/b] Warlord . Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted Power Sword & Storm Shield [b]Lieutenant with Combi-weapon [70pts][/b] [b]+ Battleline +[/b] [b]Heavy intercessor Squad [210pts][/b] . Heavy Intercessor Sergeant . Heavy Intercessor w/Heavy Bolter . Heavy Intercessor w/Heavy Bolter . 7x Heavy Intercessors: 7x Bolt Pistol, 7x Close Combat Weapon, 7x Heavy Bolt Rifle [b]+ Infantry +[/b] [b]Aggressor Squad [220pts][/b] . Aggressor Sergeant . 5x Aggressors: 5x Twin Power Fist . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets & Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [b]Centurion Devastator Squad [175pts][/b] . Devastator Centurion: Centurion Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon . Devastator Centurion: Centurion Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon . Devastator Centurion Sergeant: Centurion Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon [b]Eliminator Squad [75pts][/b] . 2x Eliminator: 2x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolt Sniper Rifle, 2x Close Combat Weapon . Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt Sniper Rifle [b]Hellblaster Squad [250pts]:[/b] Plasma Pistol . 9x Hellblaster: 9x Close Combat Weapon, 9x Plasma Incinerator . Hellblaster Sergeant [b]Infiltrator Squad [100pts]:[/b] Helix Gauntlet, Infiltrator Comms Array . Infiltrator Sergeant . 4x Infiltrators: 4x Bolt Pistol, 4x Close Combat Weapon, 4x Marksman Bolt Carbine [b]Scout Squad [55pts][/b] . Scout Sergeant: Boltgun . Scout w/ Heavy Weapon: Missile Launcher . Scout w/ Scout Sniper Rifle . Scouts w/ Astartes Shotgun . Scouts w/ Boltgun [b]Scout Squad [55pts][/b] . Scout Sergeant: Boltgun . Scout w/ Heavy Weapon: Missile Launcher . Scout w/ Scout Sniper Rifle . Scouts w/ Astartes Shotgun . Scouts w/ Boltgun [b]+ Vehicle +[/b] [b]Gladiator Lancer [160pts]:[/b] 2 Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail Heavy Stubber [b]Whirlwind [145pts]:[/b] Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter [b]Whirlwind [145pts]:[/b] Hunter Killer Missile, Storm Bolter

[@gingerelf]

So far, I've been using the anvil siege force for my celestial lions (being they are a fists sucessor) and it seems to be doing well in casual games. Especially since my army list consists of a lot of units with heavy weapons, so they get the most out of the +1 to wound rule. Especially the heavy intercessors to which I have three. Overall, it's good for laying out decent ranged damage while hugging objectives, especially with chunky units like the heavy intercessors and dreadnoughts. Seems to struggle the most against any fast-moving units that like getting into melee, so your main priority is to stay out of charging range for day like a horde of boys or a horde of nids.

[@AriousArchaic]

Celestial lions, badass

[@Bumbaclart247]

Another lions player ❤

[@NornQueenKya]

Ironstorm is just silly when rocking ballistic dreads and Las destroyers

[@MrDMSir]

100%

[@Bearrascus]

My Raven Guard with Vanguard Spearhead did very well in a casual 1000pts game vs. Orks. Infiltrators denied a useful "da jump" an later on I used the strategem to put them on a unprotected objective. Inceptors are very nice too! A 10men sqaud of van vets with a jump pack captain with infiltration and a brutalis dread + invictor warsuit to be durable were a nice addition. Incursors and eliminators rounded up that package.

[@92Audun]

I've used the Champions of Russ Thunderwolf/Wolf Lord/Black Death combo for the Damage 3, Devastating Wounds, Anti-Monster/Vehicle 4+ smash. It has helped a lot with getting at least one of the saga's to trigger.

[@richardc3859]

Trying this out soon, but running 3 vindicators in Firestorm sounds like a sweet idea no one's talked about. The extra strength is trivial, but being able to advance and shoot means they're likely hitting key targets very early with enormous firepower. Couple that with the standard Aggressor threat and its getting the mid board and likely your opponents back line early. I think people are investing too much into trying to make melta good, but at best 10 str and swingy damage, they're rarely going to punch above their weight. So it's holding that detachment back to invest into that for the theme and bonuses.

[@UnnamedEagle]

Firestorm makes Inceptors that much better too, not that they needed any help.

[@Tyresiax]

I faced an Iron Storm list two days ago with my Thousand Sons and not a lot of anti-tank (that is to say, Magnus and a Predator Annihilator), that was a nightmare. 2 Dreadnoughts Redemptor and 1 Ballistus, 1 Repulsor, 1Whirlwind, 1 Techmarine, Guilliman, Calgar with Bladeguards, and still the room to have MSU infantry squads to take terrain. Felt powerless from the start, and it felt like I was playing with a 300 or 400 points delta.

[@timunderbakke8756]

It’s because you are. GW nuked Thousand Sons to the ground for daring to be over a 49% win rate but they never had the tricks to really handle a vehicle heavy army

[@davidring681]

Yeah I’ve been seeing a lot of vehicle domination this edition but it doesn’t feel too bad. They feel Just about right. Just need to bring some of your own armor or anti tank and a higher portion of your army. I added in a replusor executioner to my list after they dropped the price this edition and at 230 points it’s a great anchor or bullet sponge.

[@ggdatboi]

Well…. Facing a heavy vehicle army with no anti-tank is kind of….. setting yourself for failure lol

[@Tyresiax]

@@ggdatboi of course. I couldn't know the list before. And, even if I did, if you play lot of anti-tank in a TS list, you then have too few cabal points, no combos, and no terrain control. Because everything has become very expansive and the core of our rules work with our Infantry and Characters, which are not anti-heavy. So, anyway...

[@timunderbakke8756]

@@ggdatboipart of the problem is thousand sons don’t have anti tank outside of mortal/dev wounds. And then they got too expensive to come in with enough cabal points for everything

[@cjkitchen8614]

I play ravenguard, and I like taking an apothecary biologis, giving him the blade driven deep and then linking a 6 man eradicator squad. Then lighting up any scary monster and / or vehicles with lethal hits and full re-rolls to hits wounds and damage from their special rule.

[@ca11rl77]

The Vanguard spearhead did well for me with dark angles. Being able to sticky an objective not needing Intercessors, -1 to hit and -1 damage Knights plus the fallback from an incoming charge is amazing

[@musicalcharge]

Everyone focuses on vehicles for ironstorm, but I think it's worth remembering that small units of infantry with heavy weapons also love the rerolls!

[@jackfrozr6773]

I am still building my Anvil Siege so I don't really have any experience with it yet, but it feels like it really need one more extra stuff to make it viable or more fun. Something like the old siege masters would be nice for the current meta or charging/fighting bonus if the unit remained stationery. Having a Stratagems that allows you to move, yet considered remaining stationery would really be nice, misplacing a unit for this detachment is really punishing, if an enemy outranges or stay out of your range or sight, you are screwed. Stratagems that gives a unit rapid fire if it remained stationery would also be kind of cool.

[@cruelmole]

What it needs is an enhancement that makes the led unit permanently count as remaining stationary no matter what it does so you at least have some models that can move.

[@jackfrozr6773]

@@cruelmole I considered that, but it is less flexible than being able to use a Stratagem for the unit you need to move. In the end, the biggest issue is that moving and positioning is just too important in the current edition, if instead of "remaining stationery" the rule changes so that "units that remain stationery or move only 1/2 the unit's movement get the benefit of heavy or the +1 wound roll" it will be much better.

[@AuramiteEX]

Anvil is very good if you have an army that can position quickly.

[@Brettoh]

Iron Storm just feels like your playing a Knights Army… next to no actual marines on the board!

[@paulthomas2779]

my army is red talons (iron hands) and the ironstorm detachment is really good

[@joshweatherston7072]

Auspex using the word "fire" in his thumbnail now makes him being a zoomer canon in my mind

[@MegaADLER77]

I had a game where I used Firestorm assault force against CSM Black Legion. (Abaddon, 2 Obliterators, 1x3 Chaos Bikers, 1 Forge Fiend, 1x5 havocs and 1x5 Chaos Termies + I think 10 legionnaires in a Chaos rhino, ill have to ask my opponent). Managed to outscore him on primaries (Was able to advance all units first turn onto all No mans land OBJs and able to annihilate anything in sight pretty much (6 man aggressor W/ Capt. in Land Raider Crusader(Just the Crusader shot because I didn't think i could disembark and shoot the aggressors) 2 Redemptors, 1 Gladiator Lancer, 2x3 Inceptors (deep strike turn 3 outside enemy home obj, and one where my Gladiator lancer died to the havocs on turn 2 of his shooting.) 1x10 Intercessor (took home OBJ and then went up into cover.)) I did lose my Dread and the 6 man to the Forge fiend and Obliterators. he made it so I couldn't target the Forge Fiend outside of 12" and Obliterators had used the gnarly indirect fire ability they used against my Redemptor. He just didn't get Abaddon and the Chaos Termies into battle. Ended scoring 39 - 13 or so. He conceded top of turn 4. I apologized since it was a fairly meta vehicle list, but I still feel kinda bad ngl...

[@discipleofdagon8195]

I stg I'm getting an anticipation ulcer waiting for the channel update vid

[@maridan48]

I find absolutely baffling that GW released a White Scars inspired detachment their only epic hero cannot make use of, simply amazing.

[@thegleeman7535]

And gutted most of the bikes/speeders that benefit the most from the detachment.

[@WhyNot-sb9kk]

sadly im not surprised at all. GW rules writing is comically bad and never very well thought out.

[@Greatkingrat88]

What's baffling is focusing it on mounted units, when bikes are among the worst units in the SM arsenal.

[@user-rj8vl6wb5h]

As a SW main I'm kinda happy with this as even if all the detachments aren't great, all the different ways I've played my army now have a dedicated detachment. Herohammer, Thunderwolves, Dreads, Wolf Guard, and Stealthy Hunters/Phobos all have a dedicated fluffy detachment and I'm all for it. I'm both looking forward to and seriously dreading a SW codex thinking about what will change. Will be interesting to see how the Dark Angels Codex works as a test case.

[@toniviskari417]

While I do find the situation with the SW detachment rule frustrating, I do genuinely like how versatile and fun the army is as a whole. It really lends to so many different playstyles while always feeling like they are the Wolves of Fenris.

[@viktorgabriel2554]

they are all great its just some are stronger then others they where never all going to be balanced look at Tyranids for instance you can ignore one of our detachments completely if you just focus fire down our big monsters and never be on the receiving end of the detachment rule

[@themattbat999]

The Vanguard Spearhead seems pretty good. -1 to hit will make ya fairly defensive outside of most flamers and melee guys.

[@Chungy187]

I think BT avoided a lot of the pain from oath nerf. Castellans only being 65 points is pretty great for lethal hits + some power weapon attacks. That with that fact that Grimaldus always give his unit rerolls to hit means you have “kind of” two oath targets that are really easy to just drown in lethal hits.

[@elijahlovejoy5438]

For first company, they could give old oaths back if you run no epic characters so you dont get Guilliman breaking the balance and its something unique for the successor/custom chapters.

[@Stu-Bo]

I've been slowly collecting untits to build a Salamanders team. Nice to see they are not down the bottom. I am curious to any one more knowledgable than I (not hard lol), let's say that someone bought me a Knight Valiant, but I want to incorporate it into a Salamander army, is it viable? As a close combat melta monster?

[@matramogram8836]

Which detachment would you recommend using if I want to focus long range?

[@shogunender8752]

They have really been doing my death company dirty for years. The black rage should really make the Death Company Marines stronger than normal space marines and even Primaris marines. The red thirst I’m not into to much for just my successor army being very heavily afflicted by the black rage while having no instances of the red thirst manifesting.

[@wonderfred]

It's never enough for you BA players. It's not enough that you're already GWs favorite chapter, you have to be more favored!

[@8bitbonsai]

Does one of you guys know if i can check out those tournament lists?

[@winterwolfcr7]

I've been playing Champions of Russ since the start of 10th. Knowing it is weaker, but it easily has the best flavor and is just so cool lol But since the codex, I've tested 1st Company - I run BGV, Terminators, and Sternguard anyway. It was not great. And then have done a game of stormlance with only one block of Thunderwolves. It was still fun and nice to have all that advance/fall back and charge. But probably stuff I could have done with Gladius anyway. I'd like Champs to get a slight buff honestly.

[@matthewheather6911]

Righteous Crusaders has been doing me right. Some armies simply can't kill all my models and the three redemptors. Stopping fall backs is absolutely nuts.

[@AsgardMedic]

Would be happy for my wolves if we wouldn't be locked to 1 saga per round. So if you manage to complete 2 in 1 turn it would not go to waste

[@UnnamedEagle]

The “character model” instead of “character unit” distinction is also a QoL nightmare in terms of sequencing combat

[@chrisbeau76]

I feel like the Stormlance Task Force usingDark Angel Ravenwing is a little underestimated. You have access to black knights, I might skip the Black Knight Command Squad since they can only take 3 black Knights before the apothecary runs out of models to bring back and they also lose the anti-vehicle/anti-monster on the charge. If you take a full squad of 6 Black Knights they have the anti-vehicle/anti-monster 4+ on a charge with the option of being lead by a Chaplain on bike (you have the option of taking three chaplains on bike which gives +1 to wound on their units melee attacks and their PlasmaTalons gain Devasting Wounds) on top of the special detachment rule which gives them Advance and charge or fall back and charge, You also have Sammuel as leader option. I'd probably place 2-3 Chaplins on bikes and place them in 2-3 outriders with maxed out units and an ATV with Multi-Meltas and another 3 Invader ATVs with Onslaught Cannons so they can use thier Outrider escort ability when spaced out properly (I looked into it and it doesn't break the rule of 3 with the ATVssinve its a different data sheet when attached to Outriders.. The chaplains feel better in Outrider squads since they could use the +1 to wound in combat since they are Str 4 and having thier twin-linked bolter rifles gain devasting wounds which also helps deliver the ATVs placed in the Outriders with Multi-metas. Place Sammuel in a unit of 6 Black Knights so everyone gets Anti vehicle/monster 4+ on the charge plus everyone can shoot and charge in a turn that they advanced. Doesnt hurt that the entire unit has plasmaweapons with Rapid Fire and Sammuelis pretty darn good in combat with the Ravensword which has 6 attacks hitting on 2+ with 6 attacks thatare Str 6, AP -3 and D2 with Sutained hits 2. I would consider takingaunit or 2 ofIntercessorwith Jump packs with the option of taking a Captain with JP or Chaplain with JP. While theCaptain offers a Free Strat and canstill use a hammer and shield, a unit of 10 can still take 3 Plasma pistols (1 Plasma Pistol for every 5 plus the ergeant can take one). The Chaplain is interesting because the Intercessors with JP can deal MWs for each model that makes it into engement range on a 4+ and then the Chaplain's ability deals additional MWs for each turn the unit is engaged. And then you have the usual unique Ravenwing units such as the Darkshroud which gives out a 6" aura of Stealth and Cover and the Lans Speeder Vengeance which has a Plasma Storm Battery with a range of 36" with blast and twin linked (Im noticing a lot pof twin linked shooting) and it can fire at at enemy units that destroyed a friendly unit. Im also toying around with the option of taking a Repulsor Executioner carrying a Company of Heroes with a Captaiin and Leutantant which place them at a total of 6 models that gains letrhal hits and fallback and shoot.

[@wellmanneredpsychopath274]

Playing Ultramarines, ive found that Vanguard is the best detachment at least for my playstyle. I like light infantry tactics and supporting them by fire. So deep striking bladeguard into the center on turn 1 with a justiciar and a 10 man hellblaster squad with apothecary shooting over them makes me hold center until at least turn 3 if not the whole game. my list went up against druhkari last weekend, an opponent and a faction id never played against. Mostly gun boat spam from him, so he had like 27 lascanon equivalents and melted all my heavy hitting stuff on his first turn. so i spent the rest of the game fighting that with nothing but infantry. I held out the whole game and ended turn 5 with my 70 points to his 81. I was scoring every secondary, holding home objective until i moved guys off of it last turn, and id killed all but two of his gun boats taking him from 27 lasconnons to 6. killed all of his infantry, his warlord, and all of his heavier vehicles (the pain monster things with scorpion tails). i had a squad of infiltrators still holding the same objective theyd been on all game with minor losses, and a Tac squad lead by an LT that ran off home objective and charged his last vehicle, killing it with a combat knife. Coming back from such a massive turn 1 loss to only lose by 11 points is a massive win in my book, especially against an unknown faction/opponent. Take my advice, Vanguard is the only way to seriously play infantry heavy lists. Toss in a few phobos and then do whatever else you want, but this detachment will save you from the ridiculous defeats the other detachments will get you

[@thomasbagrel5854]

One problem of the Firestorm one I experienced yesterday is that you have absolutely no way to fallback and shoot (AFAIK). Eradicators can get neutered very easily by tagging them with a very cheap unit (cultists, scouts, etc).

[@dandaman9496]

For Eradicators, Calgar can do it. For tacticus marines a lieutenant can.

[@Chimerarth]

@@dandaman9496 Putting Calgar with eradicators seems so weird, isn't it?

[@follower9698]

I feel like the ASF's Fleet Commander should've been a D6 roll at the very least

[@PitterPatter20]

I have a rules question: if you shoot an anti-infantry 4 weapon at an infantry model with a higher toughness than the weapon strength (aka you would normally have to wound on a 5+ or 6+), do you still cause a critical hit if you roll a 4? Even though it wouldn't normally wound?

[@timunderbakke8756]

Anti- keyword is a critical wound not hit. And yes, if an anti-infantry weapon would ordinarily wound on a 5+ or 6+ but is anti-infantry and 4+, you cause a critical wound to infantry on a 4+ regardless of toughness

[@animefan8254]

To fix first company they need to either add more veteran units and stratagem or allow 2 or 3 turns of original 10th edition oath of moment

[@darko-man8549]

I just wish Desthwatch could be given some proper mixed kill teams I’m dreading losing the FB kill team

[@andyashbey133]

First company has worked well for me. Focused-down a Norn emissary and any other tough units. Situational but I really like it

[@Bodya_CN]

When you like Raven Guard but that Ironstorm detachment is meta 😂

[@LDZMarder]

the task force system has one fatal flaw above anything else. The troops it would normally center around. like 1st company task force would be terminators are not a line choice. so you can still only take three. or the speed force. bikes again are only fast choices and not line. it would be a huge if not massive buff if you could take more of certain units then other task forces and it put you strategy in better position.

[@asaucedude]

Sang Priest and Dante can lead Assault Intercessors with Jump packs tho

[@hultbult]

Need more techmarines

[@troublemaker9899]

I think the way to fix First Company is to take the "Once Per Game" Enhancement abilities and make them always active.

[@ThijsSchrijnemakers]

thanks

[@Admiralkirk95]

I feel like first company could have been good but it focuses so hard on this 'use at the right time' idea. All the enhancements have a minor effect then a one time larger effect. Either reducing the need for the 'right time, right moment' idea of the detachment would help. Or making the improved oath permanent forvet units. If the rest of the detachment is a bit on the weak side then improved oath wouldn't be as strong as it use to be, especially if it's restricted to vet units. means the enemy has atleast some counter play in focusing the veteranunits to reduce the effectiveness of oath back to normal. Also means the player using the detachment has to use alot of veteran units which reduces their unit options and point diversity. If you're really afraid of the oath becoming too strong then make it so the oath only applies to veteran units, but normal units don't get the bonus at all, and make it permanent improved oath. Really forces the detachment to be super elite ast that point.

[@mikemcguinness92]

Re-Write for 1st Company, complete old oath of moment. Anything with the veteran key word also gains battle line, and you're not able to take any of the current battle line units in the list.

[@RhinoAg]

talked about the Templars but nobody can get those crusader squads so unless you have really old models its irrelevant

[@pumellhorne]

Tactical squad + Devastator squad gives you the weapon options for 3 five-man Crusader squads.

[@kirbyball97]

Honestly, short of more or less gutting ironstorm, it's going to be on top. Because unfortunately vehicles are by far the best units with very few answers outside other vehicles. I personally really hope they make a major shift away from vehicle spam soon. Because it drastically ups playing costs and makes the game far less about being a good, tactical thinker and more of a who brought more lancer gladiators and impulsors, etc.

[@notknightbean]

Still feel a bit disappointed all the detachment’s focus on dealing more damage with certain units, and we have none that offer added durability (with the minor exception of running black templars with the feel no pain and bones on a big unit). Running durability focused iron hands was my favorite way to run marines in 9th.

[@OverlordIntecris]

Ironstorm Spearhead is especially scary if your group plays with Legends datasheets, as I've the Relic Dreadnoughts are typically superior to their modern "Primaris" counterparts in a number of crucial ways, like Invulns and better wargear options. Not to mention Carab Culln the Risen, a Leviathan Dread character who can be your Warlord. I've had him take out an entire Terminator squad in a single round of melee, utterly insane.

[@BurnByMoonlight]

LevDreads are super scary. I’m running one in Crusade with Melta + Grav, it just devours vehicles. Combine that with the Striding Behemoth rules from the Tyrannic War crusade rules, it’s a spicy meatball.

[@RSBurgener]

I'm very curious about Templars in the Firestorm Assault Force. Yes, they're a melee army, but they're also a pistol army. What happens when you buff the pistols instead of the swords? It's interesting to me, anyway.

[@Mikazuchireborn]

Doesn't feel like it's worth it. Pistols are just one shot. You might as well stick to intercessors for more S5 shots in the 12" range, along with being able to shoot further away. You're gonna have to rely on Crucible of Battle stratagem a lot. It will make the melee attacks much more lethal, and while it'll strengthen the pistols in 6" range, your main focus should be melee.

[@RSBurgener]

@@Mikazuchireborn thanks. I'm new to 10th edition and I've been painting my army for months. I'm pretty much done now. I've got 2 crusader squads, 2 sword brethren, 2 vindicators, a land raider, ten assault intercessors and about 12 Bladeguard. That's a lot of Heavy bolt pistols. They're gonna be running forward to engage in melee anyway. My question is though, does the firestorm make their shooting a LOT more effective or will the results be similar to what it would've been anyway? I guess it depends on the opponent. Is it worth making them a hybrid shooting and melee army?

[@Mikazuchireborn]

​@@RSBurgener No problem. I play Salamanders, and I love how this Edition gives you the freedom to play whatever detachment with whatever chapter. Anyways, Firestorm is more suited for a specific style of shooting (mostly close range) and pushing guns into the 'sweet spots' within 12". For example those S5 Infernus flamers get pushed into S6, which utterly destroys T3 Guardsmen and Gaunts by wounding them on 2's. The problem is that Heavy Bolt pistols will only go from S4 to S5. They are not significantly more lethal (S5 still wounds Guardsman and Gaunts on 3's. Same as S4.), and they're only one shot. Plasma pistols and plasma guns would benefit tremendously (S7 to S8, the sweet spot for killing marines) but those are quite few as well. You should treat pistols as nothing more than extra chip damage, and just go crazy with melee. For your army, look into "Righteous Crusaders", which was designed with Black Templars in mind. At the start of the game you choose from one of four Templar Vows: 1. Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch: All units gain a 4++ save against psychic attacks and all melee weapons gain Anti-Psyker 4+. (not worth it) 2. Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: All melee weapons gain [Sustained Hits 1]. (Extra attacks! Use this for hordes, and it synchronizes well with Vanguard Vets!) 3. Suffer Not the Unclean to Live: All melee weapons gain [Lethal Hits]. (Bypass toughness. Use this against high toughness armies like Marines, Custodes and Death Guard!) 4. Uphold the Honour of the Emperor: All units gain a 6+++ and improve their Leadership to 5+. (not worth it) Basically, use 'Accept Any Challenge...' for chaff or 'Suffer not the Unclean...' for the tougher nuts. Your Land Raider and Vindicators should focus on destroying enemy vehicles/heavy weapons, while your men rush in to massacre enemies with their enhanced melee.

[@RSBurgener]

@@Mikazuchireborn I see. Well I appreciate your time and your insights. I'm definitely more the creative type than the math+rules adepts in the community. I was hoping Firestorm could be a bit of something different than the default Templars detachment. But I'm potentially losing some power by not investing more into their melee abilities. Thanks again!

[@Mikazuchireborn]

​@@RSBurgener I get you. I play Firestorm because I love playing with a themed army, even though Anvil and Ironstorm would suit my collection better. It would honestly be cool if there was a way to improve the pistols, but they're just chip weapons. At the end of the day, do what's fun.

[@MadMan-7978]

You are overlooking sword brethren way too much. They are insanely strong. For the points cost pairing them with Helbrecht and a Lieutenant in a land Raider is the single reason I win all my games. They make their points back about 3 times every hane

[@MadMan-7978]

Game*

[@timunderbakke8756]

Would it be worth it dropping the Lt and using an impulsor delivery service? Land raider taxi is kinda expensive but yes I realize that it’s the only way to charge after the move in the same turn

[@AutisticDumplingMan]

Kinda agree

[@riconade4431]

Earliest I've been to an auspex video lol. When do u think we are gonna get more admech news?

[@malekith13]

So... basically the space marines still plays the same detachments with more or less nothing knew while having lost the reroll to wounds with the oath of moment is that right ? doesn't that means that space marines are weaker than before the codex then ?

[@basteala525]

Or they play Ironstorm. I'm hoping Firestorm or Vanguard can string some wins together so it's a little less feels bad, but keep in mind points went down on quite a few things, too--any Tau player will tell you that makes a difference.

[@malekith13]

@@basteala525 the point cost went down before the codex with the dateslate and even with theses point drop they were around 46% of win... Didn't really noticed some point drop with the codex.

[@chrisbeau76]

You can gfet around it with taking a lot of units that havetwin linked.@@basteala525

[@squeesmyth9025]

stormlance for ravenwing?

[@daweimer71]

I’m quite fond of the Black Templar Detachment, Righteous Crusaders. They’re my army and imo GW got their detachment rules right: Both thematic and strong. I’ve also played the Dark Angel detachment and imo it wasn’t bad, not as good as Righteous Crusader, and it’s main rule needs re-visited, but I did have fun with it. 🤷‍♂️ … overall very solid and informative video!

[@lukepoplawski3230]

My sons of the Lion have fallen far from 9th.

[@matthewpletsch7523]

I want too play Anvil in a 2v2.

[@GaryP336]

Vanguard is tier one and I will die on that hill.

[@JimH.]

We'll mark your grave.

[@timunderbakke8756]

It looks pretty fun, but I think I’m going to sneak back into reserves and redeploy rather than die on a hill over it

[@GaryP336]

@@timunderbakke8756 I think currently it's not rated because people think "oh its the one where you take lots of scouts/phobos and then a big block of deathwing knights" which I think is a trap.

[@timunderbakke8756]

@@GaryP336I think the joke was missed, but that’s ok. I certainly like the idea of it, and if I get enough games in I plan to try it out with my Templars.

[@imperialinquisitormordecai9688]

The Flesh is Weak! Raise the Storm Clan-Brothers!

[@BeepBoop2221]

Can black templars still not take librarians?

[@solid-snake7336]

Yes. Its in their lore. They will never let a psyker in their ranks again.

[@timunderbakke8756]

Depends. The rule saying “no librarians” is a part of the righteous crusader detachment. And chapter + detachment are not tied together anymore. Ergo, if you took Templars in Gladius you could field a librarian RAW

[@pumellhorne]

Lore-wise Black Templars HAVE no librarians and rarely fight alongside psykers (Greyfax was an exception though, so there are precedents). While there's nothing stopping you having a BT librarian in the non-specific detachments it's not in the spirit of the army. If I ever want to try using a librarian in my crusade I'll paint one up like either Celestial Lions or Emperor's Spears as those chapters all work together sometimes

[@RedCometNurse]

I am afraid thar GW is going to nerf Marines as a whole rather than rein in the Ironstorm. So Marines players that want to use less problematic detachments will pay the price for the winrate of the Ironstorm.

[@jackfrozr6773]

I really hope they don't touch the Ballistus, I am currently painting 2 right now for my anvil detachment.

[@AutisticDumplingMan]

Seems not good, kinda hope the successors won’t be hit as hard

[@AutisticDumplingMan]

@@jackfrozr6773wait where can you buy them, I only got 1 from leviathan

[@lukefarrell8694]

I think the issue is less ironstorm and more that non codex chapters can run it e.g black templars

[@ianjewett3394]

@@jackfrozr6773 At 140 it really is a bit cheap. But only a bit.

[@OniFeez]

I quite like the BA detachment, but I think it requires some finesse to play, or usage of tricksy things like Libby Dreadnoughts catapulting units into first turn charges, whether Death Company, Assault Centurions or well, any infantry units. I think that mitigates the otherwise viewpoint of the necessity of advance and charge (although, I'm not certain we do actually need it, although it is definitely something nice to have). I think BA have bigger problems with their leaders unable to join units technically than they do with their detachment specifically. In regards to BA; I think Firestorm is a sleeper hit. About the only thing it doesn't have that would be nice is advance+ charge, but I like basically everything else. I quite like the idea funnily enough of advancing into close position with BA with things like Sanguinary Guard and just shooting them to death with the Angeleus bolters because suddenly they are S5 and possibly AP-1 if you have that Landspeeder flying around and +1 to wound that also works in melee. And twin linked Assault Centurions teleported into position with Libby Dreads or something, and potentially enhancement that means that your captain might be a threat to high toughness targets.

[@karlwes6273]

Ok how are salamanders not in fire, that’s their whole shtick

[@thecasualwargamer5195]

As an Imperial Fists successor, my chapter has been playing the Anvil Strike Force a fair bit since the book dropped and quite frankly it is disappointing. 10th is an edition where you need to be flexible and maneuverable but the detachment wants you to stay put. It's basically a case of if you get the benefit then great, but means to me that it's not worth it.

[@Lyriiic]

Try playing necrons lol

[@catalyst772]

first company might be better with primaris vanguard veterans and sternguard buffs...

[@DuxDamnatio]

They would have to drop the points on Van Vets by like 10 or so to compete with jump intercessors imo. Rn their melee profile being 4a s5 ap1 d1 and lethal hits on the charge for 105 points is pretty mid. Sure they can be on a 3+/4++ body but with just 2 wounds a piece and no damage 2 melee option I think they're just outclassed. You're basically paying a 20 point premium for an extra pip of strength and lethal hits on charge, which I could just spend those somewhere else. If they had different weapon options instead of just the glorified chainsword profile I'd like them more. But with all vets having their special weapons homogenized they're just out of luck.

[@DeathEatsCurry]

"win rate is low, but they're good at winning events" I think I know what was meant with this, but the phrasing is a tad.. Confusing.

[@Damnedlegion40k]

Deathwatch, well you shouda fucked me when I had a face, before the nerfs 😂😂

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

Do people bitch out SM even though we keep getting screwed rules wise or is it just about the different amount of models SM get. I mean if it is then I hope there is a way people can send idea for new models or something. At least CSM is fun.

[@horuslupercal2385]

Just my opinion here, but I don't think many people have an issue with SM rules (let's be honest, you'd expect a poster-boy army of genetically engineered super-humans with superior weapons and tactics to be top of the tree). The bigger issue is probably the unit/model availablity that SMs have. Admittedly, this is being reduced with firstborns being phased out but it's always felt like SMs have a massive range of slightly varied weapon/tactical options available to them, whereas players of other factions have to manage with a much more limited pool of units available (speaking here as a Harlequins player. We're strong but only have standard Troupe Players as our base troop choice. Giving us something like Harlequin Mimes would be a lot of fun with the additional option). Guess GW have to pander to the most popular armies being played though 😐

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

@@horuslupercal2385 I wonder if GW really know what people want because yeah SM sell but that is because they stick them in every box almost. I mean I play CSM too as well as Orks but damn they need to help out other armies too because resin sucks to build. I think Harlies in general are OP but yeah when you guys only have so little it makes sense to want to give them a punch up. lol And you are right as it is ridiculous to either have too many models with different weapons or too few weapons, cant win either way.

[@horuslupercal2385]

@@viewtifuljoe4412 agree on the resin point; I also play Orks, and I've held off on Tankbustas as that kit badly needs a plastic version with proper weapon options. Similarly with some of the finecast upgrade kits available (I'm hoping Emperor's Children get a solo plastic range at some point, again some issues with the resin Noise weapons that are available but I think that just a fairly limited EC range refresh could get some new players interested).

[@timunderbakke8756]

I don’t think marines are screwed rules wise. There’s some genuinely good rules among these options. People gripe online because one of the two happened: 1. They’re complaining because of the massive model range of options in comparison to any other army 2. A space marine player is whining in the comments about how their favorite color isn’t good enough for their tastes. Only space marines seem to believe their subfactions are actually separate factions.

[@archonwut1624]

@@timunderbakke8756 I wish i could like a comment more than once. Even as a marine player your #2 is something i've always made fun of with other players within the marine community. That weird mindset straight up doesnt exist in other communities, which is normally why the xenos factions tend to be more enjoyable to play with.

[@arcusg6988]

Watch GW increase the points cost of all vehicles lol

[@YourLocalInquisator]

Where thousand sons their list?

[@joshuaginn792]

Vanguard>

[@noapteapestrada7139]

The first company one is mind-numbingly bad . It's like they had people from other factions write the rules for this one. Weak niche buffs to already weak and overcosted statlines. And the upgrades are a joke - once per game this , once per game that. While every other detachment or faction does the same thing better , for less points and all game long . This detachment is the best argument against buying the new terminators

[@OspreyTours]

I won a tournament last Saturday using Black Templars and Anvil seige force... It is clearly the best if you know how to play the game

[@samhunter1205]

Only if you play with insufficient terrain or against lower tier opponents. With proper tournament terrain and an experienced opponent losing your bonuses when you move is just too debilitating. The other top detachments don't limit you in order to get the payoffs.

[@OspreyTours]

@@samhunter1205 Or you have enough Gravis armour and Desolation marines that your opponents all concede by turn 2. Static gunlines are always better. I have not changed my play style in over 20 years

[@samhunter1205]

@@OspreyTours static gunlines are NOT always better, and if you come up against skilled players who know how to play the objective game you will be at a real disadvantage. There is a reason the style you are discussing very rarely wins the top events.

[@Michaelkayslay]

So correct me if I'm wrong. You first pick your army. Say blood.angels. Then you can pick any detachment you like ? Is that how it works ?

[@beegbirb6560]

Yes, but your army also needs to follow that detachment’s restrictions (for example, the DA detachment can only field units without an innate chapter Keyword or units from their index). Also all your units must have the Same keyword so you can’t do things like deploying Helbrecht and Tor Garadon in the same detachment

[@Michaelkayslay]

@beegbirb6560 ahh got it. I like gladius , is that good for blood angel

[@timunderbakke8756]

@@Michaelkayslaygladius is good for literally everyone. There are some other good options but you cannot go wrong with gladius this edition

[@Damnedlegion40k]

Add a comment...

[@mitchellsmith5389]

69k view lol

[@WhyNot-sb9kk]

GW screwed the pooch on this codex. Its mostly awful. Its almost as if they knew only a couple of detachments were good and thats why they opened all armies up to all detachments.

[@jamesgallagher4304]

First company is just so awful. It makes me wonder if Anyone read the thing before shipping it