John

Dr. Leighton Flowers breaks down the context for the Gospel of John and explains why John 6:44 does not support the Calvinistic interpretation.
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#LeightonFlowers #John644 #Calvinism #Theology

[@cindybordes6753]

I left my Calvin believing Church because you opened my eyes! Thank you for being used by the Father💞

[@emf49]

I wish my dear friends and family members would ‘dare’ to check out Leighton’s podcast. There’s a lot of indoctrination and fear in these circles - not to mention pride and stubbornness.

[@patedwards8844]

@@kgar5String pride, stubbornness, arrogance is plentiful in all men, and among the saved. We must examine ourselves before we...

[@jeremiah5319]

I wasn't originally a Calvinist, but the more one studies the more one comes to understand the truth. Keep studying. Stop listening to Arminians until you understand the fallacies of their arguments. They oppose Jesus' teachings.

[@jeremiah5319]

All you who speak highly of Leighton Flowers should study God's word more. Read it all and eventually you will run into this one: Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. And stop hating those you call Calvinists. Even if you consider them enemies, you are still called to love them. Luke 6:27

[@bwc6520]

​@@jeremiah5319I at one time had my foot in Calvinism, and the the more I studied the more I understood it wasn't true; by the way, I'm not an Arminian. That is just a tweaked version of Calvinism. Your failure to understand this might be part of your problem.

[@normmcinnis4102]

Hebrews 3:7,15 Hebrews 4:7 and Psalm 95:7 all say "Today, if you will hear His voice..." This is His drawing, which can be resisted because it is followed by "harden not your heart"

[@LindsayJackel]

​@@kgar5StringLOL. You say you're not a calvinist! LOL!

[@merrickc1876]

@@kgar5String I think you forget the context of Mathew 16, this is after the feeding of the 4000 this establishes (atleast in the eyes of those who listened and learned from the father) that Jesus was the Prophet like Moses. This is Peter's profession of faith declared after Jesus' constantly revealing who he was through multiple miracles (That only God can do) that already happened. I dont think this means the Father just revealed the knowledge at that time base on the whole context of Mathew. Mathew actually strengthens Dr Flower's view if put into correct context that the pharisees did not listen to Jesus unlike the Apostles who listened and learned. Mathew 16:8-9 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? Mathew 16:13 -16 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

[@dejayne8246]

​@@kgar5String why do you copy and paste responses?

[@leenieledejo6849]

Also Hebrews 11:6 & James 4:8!

[@DamonNomad82]

@@LindsayJackel Maybe he's one of "Brown's Clowns" like Anathema (who calls himself "Altheia") and Manichean Jokes (who calls himself "Manasseh Jones"). Jim Brown's cult, which calls itself "Grace and Truth Ministries" despite having neither grace nor truth, is a hyper-Calvinist cult whose members reject the "Calvinist" label while dialing all of Calvinism's false teachings up to 11. Brown also encourages his minions to spread his lies on social media, which "kgar5String" seems to live on, throwing Calvinist nonsense all over the place while piously lying and saying he's not a Calvinist...

[@mickknight6963]

So solid here, Bro Leighton. I'm so glad we can look into the eyes of all we preach to or share with and get personal and say, "God loves you. Jesus died for you. Jesus paid It all, and calls you now to 'Come to Me'. Come to Christ and He will save you now." Very clear and simple, the gospel. ☝️😎

[@grahamb5769]

WOW, this is brilliant!! I thought I had a firm handle on this verse but Bro. Leighton really broke it down. Great video!

[@restoringheroesproject]

Good insight

[@erikrohr4396]

From personal experience - I knew about Christianity for years before I really believed. My faith started after a mysterious change in my heart that i have a hard time explaining.

[@williammarinelli2363]

A common mistake in misquoting John 6:44 is elimination of the modal verb "can" which causes a flawed takeaway of "No man comes to me except the Father draw him." This error cause a positive evaluation of the exception clause to be inevitability as opposed to ability as communicated by Scripture - the drawn one CAN come. Listen carefully to Mr. Henry's summation of the verse early in the video, around the 27 second mark "No one come(s) to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..."

[@John3.36]

An even more common error is ignoring the context of 9-11.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@williammarinelli2363 Exactly. Calvinistic individuals always tend to read John 6:44 as if the word "can" isn't there, not understanding that the removal/dismissal of the word "can" changes the entire meaning of the sentence. "Bob can come to my house on the weekends" AND "Bob comes to my house on the weekends" Are two different sentences with completely different meanings.

[@jamesers99]

​@@losnfjslefn8857 rubbish. Calvinists see the word "can" in John 6:44. It's the Armenians who ignore the word. No man CAN come to Christ unless the Father draws them. Pretty simple, really.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@jamesers99 "It's the Arminians who ignore the word." I'm not here for a Calvinist v Arminians debate. I'm not Arminian, I'm assuming you're not either, so let's just leave Arminians out of this. All I'm saying is, *in my personal experience* , when I've spoken to Calvinists about this verse, they read and understand it AS IF it says "No man *comes* ...", because when I point out that John 12:32 says Christ draws ALL when He is lifted up, they immediately push back on it. "If ALL were drawn, then ALL would come! And we know not ALL come, so ALL can't literally mean ALL are drawn!" 🔼 They'll say something like that. Do you see the problem?

[@Dakzstars]

Why does God draw people he knows would reject him? Based on analogies people make me, would you invite someone who you know won't come to your party?

[@IAmisMaster]

In sum, "all who learn from the Father come to me" of John 6:44 means that only those Jews who understand and the true message of the Law and Prophets (the OT teachings) will come to Jesus because He is what the Law and Prophets are about. This must be said to contrast with the Pharisees, who claim to follow the Law of Moses, but have not even understood or refuse to learn the lessons from the Law and Prophets (like love God with all your hear and love your neighbor). Jesus rebukes them in John 5 that they study the Scriptures but do not believe the Scriptures, because the Scriptures speak about Christ. Moses wrote about Christ (as you can see in passages like Deuteronomy 18 about the Prophet like Moses who will come).

[@Zb-uo2bl]

Some topics to some people, due to their (inner condition Only God knows), few or many words...are simply words! Prayer, Love, Mercy!

[@AardvarkBuster]

❤ these shorts 😊

[@user-um5wn8ri7s]

I was discipled by Calvanists who really hurt my faith-It was like spirtual rape, they hurt my relationship with God tremendously, made me fear him, and it took me years to get out of it. ❤

[@jerrystatic256]

Excellent illustration

[@emf49]

Thank you. That was extremely enlightening. I need to listen to it again!

[@jayceoneal]

Do you have any commentary recommendations that are similar to God's Word for you series or Christ Centered Exposition Commentary series that's not from a reformed influence?

[@SpielbergMichael]

Great video!!!

[@Armand-gl7pl]

very godly explanation

[@benfrank1572]

Criticism of election is based on a philosophical notion of what is fair and not fair.

[@jermaineowsley7749]

I have heard Calvinists say that the word draw in John 6:44 means to drag in Greek as opposed to draw your attention. I am not a Calvinists, but I am curious if this is true or not.

[@delivefreenana]

This is so excellent! I wished I had this years ago during WCG membership-it would’ve enlightened me a lot sooner!

[@traceypickens105]

I’d give this two likes if I could!

[@grahamb5769]

I had forgotten to like it, then I read your post. So in a way you did give it two.

[@evaadams4243]

Oh the debate covering this subject will never stop. But certainly, I will never agree with calvinism no matter how hard a calvinist tries to. I guess the line is drawn here. I support Leighton Flowers's articulation of what I have always believed that there is a condition for salvation. A condition of "whosoever believes..." and so on and so forth. God bless those who sincerely love the Lord Jesus Christ, including Calvinist brethren.

[@evaadams4243]

​@@kgar5Stringbrother or sister, your hermeneutics in my opinion is unsound. I'm sure you believe it for certain that your interpretation is right. Not to me but that's ok, I have my own verses and interpretations which would counter yours. However, let's leave it that at that. Let's just agree to disagree. God bless you.

[@John3.36]

You have hardened your heart against Calvinism.

[@evaadams4243]

​@@John3.36​ What a relief to know that I've hardened my heart against Calvinism. As long as I've not hardened my heart against God, then all is very well and good!

[@colleengleason6533]

@@John3.36 Which means God hardened their heart against Calvinism according to Calvin's definition of God's sovereignty. So God decided they shouldn't be Calvinists

[@John3.36]

@@colleengleason6533 Calvinism is not true, so God did not decide anything for them.

[@robbyclark6915]

Imagine not being able to tell someone, anyone, that Jesus loves them because you risk telling them a lie? You can't tell your neighbor, your friend, your aunt, your uncle, your teacher, your barber, your mom, your dad, or even yourself that Jesus unequivocally, without exception, loves them. Because, in Calvinism, you just never know for sure until you see those pearly gates up ahead whether you were truly elect to persevere to the end or be reprobate? Only Jesus knows for certain who Jesus loves forever. That's what the Bible teaches? Not at all.

[@PoppaFlagrant]

It’s not absurd! It’s a brilliant statement!!

[@robbyclark6915]

@@johnallen5999 I agree, Calvinism is totally absurd.

[@freeguy7628]

If you listen carefully to Calvinists they say "God loves sinners" so they can avoid saying God loves everyone.

[@robbyclark6915]

Yes, calvinists say many things that make no sense.

[@marorey-yc2qx]

​@@johnallen5999absurd for a twisted Calvinist because of your arrogance thinking you people got it all figured out exclusively.Duh

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

WELL DONE!!!

[@HumanLarvae]

Hey @Soteriology101 what if there is ANOTHER possible interpretation for this? What if John 6:44 applies specifically to Jews AT THE TIME who were to be Jesus DISCIPLES? What if John 6:39 and John 6:40 are referring to a DIFFERENT GROUP OF PEOPLE? This would ALSO negate the Calvinistic interpretation and has merit.

[@kevinrtres]

Or one can then apply Exodus 33:19 and Ezekiel 37 whilst one wonders about Ephesians 2. Or even see the repeat in Romans 9? Is it up to man or up to God? Leighton and most of the commenters on this page reckons it's up to man to decide. I wonder what would have happened if Abram said - "Sorry, God, I'm not going anywhere - find someone else" Or is Israel a very peculiar pick made by God alone - out of all the nations on earth?

[@EugeneHolley-rc6ry]

Really well explained, John 6:45 is referring to the gospel of Christ that Paul said was the power of God unto salvation unto every one that believes, Romans 10:8 it is the word of faith which we preach, in verse 17 he says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God which is the gospel. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:15 for in Chris Jesus, I have begotten you through the gospel.

[@EugeneHolley-rc6ry]

@@kgar5String The scripture is clear about how faith comes to us in Romans 10:17 so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith comes by hearing the word of God preached, how much clearer could he be. Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith. The word faith means to believe, trust, rely, on what he says in his word. Ephesians 1:13 In whom you also trusted, AFTER that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Faith is in the word of God that is preached, he is telling us by the hearing of the word of faith that is preached in Romans 10:8. Faith is not a work. Romans 4:5-6 But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without WORKS. Faith is not works, according to the word of God. Romans 11:6 confirms that as well as Ephesians 2:8-9.

[@kevinrtres]

@@EugeneHolley-rc6ry You must of course couple all your quotations to Ephesians 2 as well otherwise it's incomplete. Heck, you might as well throw in Ezekiel 37, Romans 9, Matthews 11:25-27 whilst you're at it - just for completeness sake.

[@seaotter6811]

ln another note... i know a young lady who would not be friends with a calvinist because she was taught that that would be "unequally yoked" . good grief. see where this leads

[@kevinrtres]

So, since man has the ability to choose to believe does he also have the ability to reject salvation once he has accepted it? Once the man has come to Jesus and received eternal life is that man free to reject it because he is not satisfied with the salvation given to him?

[@johndavolta3124]

Good question... depends who you ask. Free Gracers believe you can do whatever you want and still you won't lose your salvation. Arminians believe you can do whatever you want but that involves forfeiting your salvation.

[@johnlezcano4748]

A woman named Lydia was listening; she was a seller of purple fabrics from the city of Thyatira, and a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:44

[@davidsteinart]

QUESTION: If Jesus is only drawing those who add previously listened and learned from the father, what category do all of the prostitutes and tax collectors Etc who heard the message of Jesus and were drawn to him fit into? It seems like Jesus drew a lot of people who had previously never been faithful or listened to God but who somehow recognized him and turned to God through him. If you could please address this it would be very helpful. Thank you

[@LookinUp_]

God has drawn all men, but many will deny Him. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth (crucifixion), will draw all men unto me.

[@marce.goodnews]

Became Catholic thanks to this channel. Now I go to Society St Pius X, to the Traditional Latin Mass.

[@kevinmoore3033]

How did that happen? Leighton teaches Biblical Christianity, not Roman Catholicism. I grew up Catholic and now I am free in Jesus! I don’t pray to Mary anymore, she can’t hear anyone on Earth!

[@John3.36]

Keep reading, with verses like this you will not stay a Catholic for long: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" -- 1 Timothy 2:5 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9

[@user-um5wn8ri7s]

Relationship with Christ not denominationalism ❤

[@kevinrtres]

@@user-um5wn8ri7s Then one has to take care not to have another mediatrix, another advocate, another LIFE, another HOPE OTHER than Jesus!!!! See my reply to marce.goodnews

[@kevinrtres]

Maybe have a rethink? The rosary contains this line: *Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope* Jesus alone is King - there is no "queen" in heaven. God is our life - Deut 30:20 Jesus is our life Colossians 3:4 Psalm 62 - God is our hope. Mary is deified in this line - anyone praying it is committing idolatry

[@williammiles459]

Personally, I am drawn to God as my father through revelation, as something to be desired.

[@loleki737]

Thank you, Leighton. That was another great focused teaching. If everyone understood that the earthly Christ came to Israel who were God's elect and the whole world after His finished work, Calvin's influence would greatly diminish. It's fascinating, too that Israel was elect yet most perished during the first century tribulation. They had heard. They had a choice.

[@virginiahernandez1329]

❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@romanlegions3384]

Psalm 145:18 YHVH is near to all who call on Him-to all who call on Him in Truth. John 17:17 Sanctify them in the Truth, as Your Word is Truth.

[@spencerbrown5063]

Very good..thank you. The Is what I believe as well. Jesus first came to the Jews,but they reject him like their forefathers rejected God. For they would know Jesus.

[@BM5K007]

The simplicity is clearly too simple for Calvinists...

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

The Gospel is so simple even a child can understand it.... Calvinism... not so much🤔

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@kgar5String Unfortunately, you are conflating some scripture. Matt 11:25 says "25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Sometimes the intellect and pride of man obscures the message of the Gospel. Jesus said we should be like children in that regard. The 'few that find it" is from Matt 7 and references a different topic other than the simplicity of the Gospel.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

@@kgar5String Innocent?? LOL.. I am among the 'all' who have fallen and come short... I need a savior and am all too aware of it. As a believer, I have a savior and an advocate before the father who is Christ Jesus our Lord. The question for Calvinists is this; If the "elect" are chosen or created (take you pick) for salvation before the foundation of the world, obviously, they are NEVER in danger of damnation. And nothing they can do will ever interfere or jeopardize their eternal destiny. So, they are not in need of an advocate. ... And similarly, the reprobate is certainly denied an advocate... The question follows... For whom is Jesus advocating ?

[@John3.36]

Calvinists are smarter than the scriptures.

[@hiabadi]

Cursed to those who spread different gospel or no gospel. There is No gospel / good news to majority of mankind according to Calvinism.

[@MrJeffreyromain]

How so? I’m admittedly new to all of this.

[@SheepDog1974]

​@@MrJeffreyromainAnything Calvinism, run for the hills

[@SheepDog1974]

​@@MrJeffreyromainread the Bible for yourself, ask God to speak to you through what you read... It's that simple

[@marorey-yc2qx]

​@@SheepDog1974unfortunately Calvinists cannot understand the Bible without the bias of that late murderer John Calvin.

[@TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs]

@@SheepDog1974 Does that go for Once saved always saved, or Inevitable Perseverance of the Saints? P in TULIP?

[@danniequesenberry9951]

The SPIRIT OF GOD DRAWS EVERYBODY AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER........GOD IS NO RESPECTO OF PERSONS

[@grizz4489]

I can't seem to find any passages about the Spirit drawing

[@KISStheSON...]

This is getting so frustrating! Jesus was speaking to people who THOUGHT they were the people of God but they did not know HIm because their forefathers walked away from Him and TAUGHT them of a false god in the name of the God of Abraham Izach and Jacob. Had they been TAUGHT of the one true God they would have been drawn to the Son...only those who HEAR and LEARN from the Father via people who know the one true God will be drawn to the Son because HE is the ONLY one who will. Teachings of false gods will not draw a man to the Son, they will guide you away from Him. John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” God used these very people to serve His purpose by leaving THEM in their folly for that time knowing they would cry CRUCIFY because Jesus didn't have the voice of their god (blasphemy). After the resurrection everything CHANGED, the veil was lifted and now all can come to Him via the record that God gave of His Son. God provided everything everyone needs to KNOW HIM...we are in the time of "but now" because all has been REVEALED. Be careful what teachers you FREELY give your ears to because we can become ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...if we have any doubt we must give our ears to other teachers. I'm guilty of only giving my ears to the Roman Catholic church system for 46 years even with many many doubts and I will not blame anyone but myself. God sent His people to me and I turned them away. STOP blaming God for the people who don't know Him after He made Himself known is such a profound way, so that we may know HIm.

[@1974jrod]

So do you say that there are people God won't draw?

[@Gospelmama1940]

Thank you for pointing out that CHrist Jesus is drawing all men to Him now that He is resurrected, in John 12. Sometimes I forget that when He was alive on earth, it was to the Jew first. I am not Calvinist! Am a Bible believing Gentile. Still some of this is confusing. The Holy Spirit enlightens, praise God. Otherwise, would struggle much more to grasp some of these issues. I believe God gave us His Word so that we could understand and faithfully follow Him and His Son - not be constantly fearful. Thank you for bring clarity.

[@kevinrtres]

Picking and choosing what one wants to believe can be very confusing - so just read the bible as a whole and see how Exodus 33:19 applies, or Ezekiel 37 or Deuteronomy 7:6-7 or Romans 9 or Ephesians 2 or even 1 Corinthians 2:18-29...and there are so many, many more books, chapters and verses which makes it absolutely clear - GOD CHOOSES.

[@danniequesenberry9951]

Yes.... .GODS WORD SAYS UNLESS ......MAN CANNOT BE SAVED UNLESS THE SPIRIT DRAWETH HIM......THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT.......

[@kevinrtres]

Yup! just as Exekiel 37 tells us in no uncertain terms. Or Exodus 33:19 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

[@danniequesenberry9951]

Thats right......

[@danniequesenberry9951]

Amen

[@user-pb2gd7ft6w]

Dude, that was awesome!

[@francesvincent793]

you do not have to be drawn; you can come on your own

[@chaddonal4331]

No, this is false. Layton addresses this early on in the video. You are expressing a Pelagian view. That is not Provisionism

[@kevinrtres]

@@chaddonal4331 What exactly is that "Provisionism"??? Where is that found in the bible?

[@chaddonal4331]

@@kevinrtres Keep listening… The emphasis is that Jesus provided salvation for all who will believe.

[@richardthorne2804]

Later in John it says God draws All People - John 12:32.

[@richardthorne2804]

@@kgar5String 100% agree. I’m not a Calvinist and I’m not sure why you thought that. Relax.

[@girlonfire421]

@@kgar5Stringhatred? You should probably take a moment to ponder the validity of that thought.

[@richardthorne2804]

@@kgar5String I really feel convicted to help those that believe in Lordship Salvation. Not all Calvinists hold to that view for example John MacArthur wrote the gospel according to Jesus which supports LS and in response to that Charles Ryrie wrote So Great Salvation that supported more of a Free Grace view and he is also a Calvinist ( Not a 5 pointer but he is a Calvinist).

[@user-cb4cd2sp8o]

“I” Will draw…

[@jeremiah5319]

I wish Leighton Flowers could exegete this: Matthew 11 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

[@kevinrtres]

Strange that no Provisionists seems to have taken up your challenge? Maybe they are all Arminian?

[@jakeyboy8402]

Who blinded their eyes?

[@John3.36]

John Calvin

[@jvo3777]

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -John 14:6

[@kevinrtres]

...and no one comes to Jesus except if the Father DRAGS him/her to Jesus!!!! read the bible as a whole and see how Exodus 33:19 applies, or Ezekiel 37 or Deuteronomy 7:6-7 or Romans 9 or Ephesians 2 or even 1 Corinthians 2:18-29...and there are so many, many more books, chapters and verses which makes it absolutely clear - GOD CHOOSES.

[@SheilaSmith-z8g]

Renember the connect the dot pictures given to children as a fun activity? The picture cant be revealed if a dot is missed. Augustine grappled with the co-existence of "evil," with a holy God. A holy God would not create or allow evil, and Augustine conceived evil as all human suffering. So to maintain his belief that God is holy, Augustine made up a benevolent God purpose for evil. He was incorrect in his concept of evil, constructing an incorrect explanation or remedy. Calvinists read the history of the beliefs you hold. When a premise (what is evil) is wrong, everything built on that premise will be wrong. Premise: Pigs can fly. Now we can discuss all the things flying pigs can and can not do. Augustines premise was incorrect. Calvinists connect the dots.

[@ellisrowe363]

Well done LF!!!

[@jedispice8040]

John 6 is truly a stumbling block. As a believer, its easy to see how this passage trips everyone out when you don't sit with this text verse by verse and look at the whole counsel of scripture. vs 65 - Mr. Flowers does not cite the Prophets (Jeremiah 31:33, Isaiah 54) and what is said there. He literally skips that and makes up his own reading... 13:26 Did y'all catch that?

[@lw216316]

Jesus says - I stand at the door and knock. So it is up to you to open the door. You have a choice. If you do and invite Him in then you can do as was instituted in the Old Testament times - you can give Him a free will offering of praise and thanks.

[@vincentcieluch7863]

Elohim is no respecter of person but rather a respecter of conditions, "who (God) will have ALL men (mankind) to be SAVED and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1Timothy 2:4... So it clear that Yahweh wants all to be saved, so why then if he "pre-determined" who will and will not be saved, then His Word would fall to pieces... We can't by a short KZbin clip logically formulate a Theology on a subject matter by reading one verse... For God so loved the world (only some?) or all?... It plain to me to see 👀

[@Aztshirts]

Calvinists don't read the next verse.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

​@@kgar5String How do you know?

[@ChuckBrowntheClown]

Whining and complaining isn’t of belief and trust faith it is not faithful, not believable or trustable therefore you’re not believable or trustable by their fruits. You shall know them.

[@cutoats]

If someone professes with their mouth and believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead they will be saved. Does it matter that much if they got there by their own freewill or not? They are a professing believer. I am not a Calvinist per se but I think the Bible speaks of election but this debate is silly because I am pretty sure a true believer that interprets it differently still won’t say they saved themself, they know that God saved them. Right? We need to do a better job directing professing, heart believing Christians to bearing good fruit, loving one another not building up ammunition and courage to destroy one another.

[@John3.36]

Yes, but many Calvinists teach that you cannot call upon God to be saved. Watch Paul Washer at all? He preaches against "calling upon Jesus" all the time. They teach that you have to be magically zapped by God to know that you are one of the elect, then you have to endure to the end to make sure, and even then you might be a fake pre-ordained by God with a false salvation. Many born-again believers become Calvinists after they are saved, not before. The ones that are born into the Calvinistic system (Presbyterians mostly) are thoroughly confused their whole life and may not be born-again.

[@cutoats]

@@John3.36 what do you believe it takes to be saved?

[@John3.36]

@@cutoats Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[@grizz4489]

​@@cutoats Calling on the Lord to be saved as nothing to do with a lost person being eternally saved from the lake of fire. Ever single usage of " calling on the Lord " has to do with saved people and the church. Please answer this .... how can a person who does not even believe in Jesus call upon Him ? How can they call on whom they have not believed in. If you want to be saved from the lake of fire and never perish then believe in Jesus for everlasting life !

[@cutoats]

@@grizz4489 I guess I am having a hard time tracking, because I can’t tell if we are disagreeing or agreeing on something that I kind of don’t really know if I knew was an issue…but it seems like we agree

[@TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs]

In John 6:44, the audience is not the Pharisees, but the same people that Jesus just fed the day before. They are not rejecting Christ.

[@johnknight3529]

If the Pharisees have not (truly) believed God, why would you think they have taught the people (rightly) about God? They were the "church" of that time and place, so of course their failure to teach and preach the God of the Prophets would result in many never having learned of that God, don't you think? Why avoid the obvious and turn to the "mysterious?

[@TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs]

@@johnknight3529 Not sure what your point is. The church and Kingdom of Christ wasn't set up until Jesus and John came. The Pharisees, as long as they continued to reject Christ were never citizens of Christ's Kingdom or church. It wasn't "set up" prior to John according to Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings (the 4th beast, the Roman Caesars) SHALL the God of heaven SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Additional proof is here where Christ speaks to the Pharisees: Matthew 21:25, 31-32 (KJV) The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?..... .....Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the PUBLICANS AND THE HARLOTS GO INTO the kingdom of God BEFORE YOU. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. This Kingdom is entered through water baptism and receiving the Spirit. John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN OF WATER and of the Spirit, HE CANNOT ENTER into the kingdom of God." Regarding John 6:44, go to a previous post of mine on this comment section of this video to find a link to the best explanation of this verse that you will find. Flowers has missed it.

[@EdThePastor]

Yes many rejected him. John 6:66 (ESV) After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

[@johnknight3529]

@@TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs - "Not sure what your point is." Well, that's not surprising, now that I see you can't understand why I would refer to the Pharisees as the "church" of that time and place (small c and in quotes). (My bad, please go on with your life as if I never said a word to you)

[@TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs]

@@EdThePastor Yes, but Jesus' audience wasn't a hostile one like the Pharisees in Ch. 5. Check out the link to a video on this comment section under my handle. It is amazing exegesis and the best explanation of Jn. 6:44 I've found.

[@TheHeavenTestdotnet-gr2ou]

WHAT IF WE DIE BELIEVING A FALSE GOSPEL? The Bible and specifically our Apostle Paul tells us the answer to that question. We find the answer in the gospel of the grace of God recorded in I Corinthians 15:1-4. I Corinthians 15:1-4 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Our Apostle Paul tells us that WE ARE SAVED when we believe that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that He was buried and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures. In II Corinthians 5:21 we are told that God made Christ to be sin for us. II Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. This gospel is easy to understand and very straightforward. We only have to believe that the God that spoke this world into existence gave His life for us, He was buried and that He rose on the third day. This seems like a very easy choice. Doesn’t it? Let's look back to a time where a couple of other people also had a very easy choice to make. Let’s call them Adam and Eve. Let’s say that they lived in the best place on earth. Let’s say that they could live with God forever. Let’s say that they would never get old, sick or die. We all remember Adam and Eve and the choice that they made. Would they have made the right choice if God had written the instructions that they needed on a piece of paper and they could carry that piece of paper everywhere that they went? Well, guess what? God has written down the instructions that we need to follow in order to inherit eternal life with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is called the Bible, and we can carry it everywhere we go. If we follow the instructions in the Bible, we can live in the best place imaginable. We can be with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ forever and we will never get old, sick or die. Have you made the decision to believe God and follow His written instructions, so that you will become a child of God forever? God doesn’t make mistakes. When He adopts you as His child, it is a forever adoption. Yet, some of us question God and His promises. Now you may ask yourself what Satan is up to these days. That is an easy answer. Satan is not hanging around in the obvious places where everyone goes to sin. Those places are on autopilot aka auto-Satan. No, Satan hangs out at the places where people feel safe, and they go to in order to feel closer to God. No, I’m not talking about your “prayer closet” or on your knees beside your bed at night praying to God. No, I’m talking about… …places where false gospels are preached. These are places where people are fooled by Satan into believing an adulterated gospel and thus believe in vain. Do you remember Adam and Eve? A little bit of Satan goes a long way. I have made a decision to learn from Adam and Eve’s mistake. I will follow and believe God’s word that He has given to me. Call me wise if you want to. I’ll just call myself a saved and blessed child of God.

[@jeremiah5319]

I want to hear Leighton Flower explain how a dead man can come to life on his own. Can a dead man raise his hand? Or say a follow-after-me prayer to get saved? No. According to Jesus, FIRST a man MUST be born again. Can a dead man give himself new life? Of course not. What do you think Jesus was saying to Nicodemus? Read it in John 3:3-7 to see that it is the work of the Holy Spirit who must FIRST give a dead spirit new life BEFORE he can see or enter the kingdom of God. Read Ephesians 2, in which our natural condition from birth was with a DEAD spirit, which MUST be quickened unto spiritual life. Again, answer the question if you cannot understand the metaphor: Make a list of things a dead man can do. It's an empty list. And all those false teachers and church pastors who say, "Repent and believe (or be saved) apparently haven't read all of God's word." Dead men cannot repent. Explain how they would if their spirits are DEAD! (Eph 2) God MUST first draw the sinner to repentance. John 6:39, 40, 44 Repentance is a gift. God must first GRANT it to sinners. Acts 11:18 Faith is a gift. God must first GRANT it to sinners. Eph 2:8-9 It's ALL a gift. Eph 3:7 Righteousness is by the FAITH *OF* JESUS CHRIST. Phil 3:9, Gal 2:20, Gal 3:22 It's ALL by the will and work of God alone: John 1:12-13 Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: If Leighton Flowers is saved, he doesn't understand the mechanism by which his salvation came. He thinks he had a part in it, which steals from God what belongs to God. And telling a spiritually dead mean he must repent of his sins to be saved is simply false. It's impossible for him to do. (If you don't understand metaphors you may never get this.) And it's shameful for a pastor to ever say it! (Jesus never said it. Can you prove me wrong? Show me where he said it.) If you're using a sloppy translation of the Bible you may not ever know the truth about salvation. Take a look at the Young's Literal Translation, which is most literal, as its name implies.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@jeremiah5319 "Can a dead man raise his hand?" Can a dead man tell a lie? Can a dead man commit adultery? There are a lot of things dead men can't do. That's why the phrase "dead in sins" isn't supposed to be taken super literal. A man who is "dead in sins" can't regenerate (make alive) himself, but that man CAN have faith, and God can choose to acknowledge that faith and regenerate the man. That's how Scripture says it works. Faith is the prerequisites to Regeneration. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that unbelieving people are made alive/Regenerated, so that they can then believe.

[@High-rise_man]

Thanks I never thought of it like this. I will ask Calvinist if it's worth telling people to repent/preach the gospel because how can a dead man repent? Seriously?

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@High-rise_man I also wonder how Calvinistic individuals see the phrase "dead to sin" (Romans 6:2, 1 Peter 2:24). If "dead in sins" = cannot have faith Then, to be consistent, shouldn't: "Dead to sin" = cannot sin?

[@Ken-do4oy]

Jesus never converted one soul during His earthly ministry. He spoke in parables so that they could not and would not understand. Even Peter wasn't converted yet.. Luke 22:31.

[@grizz4489]

‭Luke 22:31 NKJV‬ [31] And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. Please tell where in this passage does it say that Peter was not converted yet ?

[@Ken-do4oy]

@@grizz4489 verse 32 "and when thou art CONVERTED, strengthen thy brethren"

[@Ken-do4oy]

@kgar5String in order to be converted one has to believe that Jesus died for our sins and that He was raised from the dead. 1 Cor 15: 1-4. Did the thief on the cross believe that???? Jesus said, "I tell you today, you will be with me in parables. " Remember, there are no commas in the Greek manuscripts. The comma was put their by the King of England's 47 Translors.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

​@@Ken-do4oy Then take out your comma.

[@Ken-do4oy]

@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi the comma couldn't possibly be after "him" cause Jesus did not go to paradise on that day. that He died. Jesus died, remember as in dead. Ecc 9:5..

[@tedfordhyde]

This is too simple and plain for Calvinists to understand.

[@gregnunan4885]

For my flesh is food indeed ( John 6:55) Catholic doctrine is 100 % correct. Eucharist is the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus that we receive at mass, it is not symbolic as Protestants believe. St Paul reaffirms this “He who eats of the body and drinks of the cup in an unworthy manner brings judgement and condemnation, some have got ill,some even died. Surely if symbolic it could never have such an effect.

[@seaotter6811]

ok.. are Calvinists Christians? Are Arminians Christians? Can we disagree on eschatology and still be brothers? How can you have an entire channel on one subject? HOw about building up the body of Christ instead of this division. I read the comments and there is a definite them and us. The churches in this country are in sad, sad shape. THey really are. we have divisions for no reason. Don't get me wrong, there are actual reasons for not fellowshipping with others or joined with them I get that, but this calvinistic/other is not a reason.

[@jettoth3]

What good does it do a man to be "drawn" without any life-giving power? It sounds to me like you are still giving sinful minds the credit for having been "born from above". But being "born again" isn't something that we do by our free will. Why not give the Holy Spirit the credit for His role in bringing the sheep to repentance and faith in Jesus?

[@reganoryan2292]

You never heard a word he said! You trapped in a cult called Calvinism.. You cannot take the credit from God it's impossible

[@jettoth3]

@@reganoryan2292 I was an atheist running away from God as fast as I could run. I just wanted to live my sinful lifetstyle, so I mocked the whole idea of God. But when I least expected to "find" God, there He was! The Holy Spirit confronted me with the seriousness of my sinful life, and showed me the ways I was using people and hurting people. In a gentle way, God brought me to my knees! No one seeks Jesus who isn't sure that they need the Saviour. My salvation surprised me, my family, and all those who knew me. Praise God for His miraculous work in bringing salvation to me in spite of my past enslavement to sin!

[@treysmith5513]

Leighton, I agree with the general direction that you take with this text, but you are saying a lot of words that the text doesn't say. I would make the point that we see these groups: "The Given, the drawn, the granted; and then not make any assumptions about those groups, just believe what the text says. We know the only result of the Father's drawing is that man CAN come. And the him who He will raise up in the last day is tied to "him who cometh unto me." Then we get to John 12:32 and learn whether the Father is or isn't still drawing, that at the time described by Jesus He will begin drawing ALL MEN unto Him. Then we get to John 16:29-30 and see the Disciples believe, and then Jesus in John 17 reference their conversation in His prayer to God about those who were GIVEN to him (the Apostles). And Jesus prays for those who will believe through their word (Pentecost Acts 2). Then we see repentance was given/granted to Israel in Acts 5:32 and then Repentance unto life is granted to THE GENTILES in Acts 11:18. Then in acts 28 Paul Goes to the Gentiles. If we just read the Bible in order without making assumptions, all the questions get answered in the most simple way.

[@marorey-yc2qx]

Long lines but confusing.Trying to make sense😂

[@pjsepulved]

When will Christians understand that Jesus was preaching to Jews. Jesus was not talking to us the gentiles. This verse and many many more don’t make sense if you don’t divide that Jesus’ earthly ministry was specific to and for Jews. Exodus 19. They the Jews were called to be a royal priesthood. Apostle Paul is our apostle today who brings us our gospel today.

[@vinylcrafters4758]

OK, so let me get this straight. God learns who will believe everyday when people come to faith. Up until then, He was sitting on the edge of his throne just hoping that these souls would be saved by expressing faith in His Son. Up until now, I had always believed that God was the alpha and the omega, knowing the end and the beginning, but you're saying He doesn't know who will be saved until they make up their minds to accept His Son. Once those of us who are saved get to Heaven, we sure are going to be congratulating each other on the good sense we had to accept God's offer! Of course, I'm being sarcastic. What you are describing is not grace. Grace says that we are all sinners, all heading for eternal separation from God due to our sinful nature and our refusal to acknowledge God. But God, in His infinite mercy.....gave us life when He raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved) Ephesians2:4-9. The Holy Spirit gives us the ability to have faith. Remember, faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9) I think we all have to answer this question; does God know, from before the birth of any person, which of us will respond to His word and which will not? If you answer yes, and I think you would, then you have to admit that regardless of how we see the situation, the truth is that God sees it differently. He is totally aware of all things, we are not. So, the result is that God does choose to save some (His mercy) while not saving others (His judgement). We however, operate on the assumption that anyone could be saved and we give the gospel to anyone the Holy Spirit directs us to. Two very different perspectives.

[@karw9ng]

Exactly how God made us. He draws us to Him, but we have the free will to either accept Him or reject Him. Those that are not drawn, have already hardened their hearts. Thevsins of tge fathers...

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

True, reprobate Jews in Jhn 1:11 are blinded. But Flowers ignores the follow verses. That is, the reason why some believe is because they were born of [the Spirit] of God (Jhn 1:13, xref., Jhn 3:5). That's the drawing Jesus is talking about in Jhn 6:44 (1Co 12:3).

[@grizz4489]

In the passage you are referring to.....believing comes before being born of the Spirit. Not the other way around.

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

@@grizz4489 : Not true. The ones who believed in his name were first born of the Spirit of God. That’s how they became children of God. No one can call Jesus “Lord” except in the Spirit (1Co 12:3).

[@aservant2287]

​@scienceandbibleresearch repentance must come first and then believing in what Christ did for them comes second and they receive the receive the Holy Spirit by faith. It's God's faith we take in yes but one can't say they have receive a gift unless they accept it. You can't say you got a gift from someone unless you accept first just like a believer isn't saved until they received the free gift of salvation. You're saying that one is saved first to be saved which makes no sense. No doubt calvinism is another gospel. My friend these are the facts

[@marorey-yc2qx]

​@@scienceandbibleresearchyeah I heard the Catholics say "Lord" all the times.Are they in the Spirit? Duh.

[@marorey-yc2qx]

​@@aservant2287Calvinism never makes sense and only the religious proud will parrot such twisted ideology

[@jeremiah5319]

We can't know for sure, but it's entirely possible that Leighton Flowers isn't even saved, but assumes he his. As with those in Matthew 7:21-23. they assumed they were saved. They said, "Lord, Lord," did we not do all the pious religious stuff? They did the works in the name of Jesus... they prophesied, they cast out demons... but Jesus says he NEVER knew them. They didn't lose their salvation - they never had any. They were just 'full of churchianity'. Hopefully that's not you.

[@jeremiah5319]

What is Leighton Flowers' motivation for continually making videos that cause his followers to hate on Calvinists? Can anyone show me a saying from Jesus that suggests you should be hating on Calvinists? I couldn't find one. Maybe Leighton Flowers knows of one, but I've searched the entire New Testament without finding one. In fact, Jesus says we should even love our enemies! Wow! I guess you might pretend that Calvinists are your enemies... then love them? Stop hating on Calvinists.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@jeremiah5319 Critiquing a doctrine does not equal hating individuals that follow that doctrine.

[@petergouvignon8048]

Why is the futurist hardened to the truth of scripture the plain reading? Heb 1:14 ISV All of them are spirits on a divine mission, sent to serve those who are about to inherit salvation, aren’t they? Heb 9:28 ISV so the Messiah was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And he will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly wait for him. Heb 10:37 ISV For “in a very little while the one who is coming will return- he will not DELAY; 1Th 5:9 ISV For God has not destined us to receive wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, Gal 5:5 ISV Through the Spirit by faith we confidently await the fulfillment of our righteous hope, (salvation) 1Pe 1:5 ISV Through faith you are being protected by God’s power for a salvation that is READY to be revealed at the end of this era. (Era of the Old covenant) 1Pe 4:5 ISV They will give an account to the one who is READY to judge the living and the dead. 2Pe 3:7 ISV Now by that same word, the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire and are being kept for the day when ungodly people will be judged and destroyed. (Apostate Israel) Jas 5:8 ISV You, too, must be patient. Strengthen your hearts, because the coming of the Lord is NEAR. 1Co 7:31 ISV and those who use the things in the world as though they were not dependent on them. For the world in its present form is passing away.(present tense is) Rom 8:18 ISV For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed to us. Rom 13:12 ISV The night is almost over, and the day is near. Let’s therefore put aside the actions of darkness and put on the armor of light. Rev 1:1 ISV This is the revelation of Jesus the Messiah, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must happen SOON. He made it known by sending his messenger to his servant John, Rev 1:3 ISV How blessed is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and obey what is written in it, for the time is NEAR! Rev 3:11 ISV I am coming SOON! Hold on to what you have so that no one takes your victor’s crown. Rev 22:7 ISV “See! I am coming soon! How blessed is the person who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book!” Rev 22:12 ISV “See! I am coming soon! My reward is with me to repay everyone according to his behavior. Rev 22:12 ISV “See! I am coming soon! My reward is with me to repay everyone according to his behavior. How does the provisionest read these text?

[@frankielee5623]

"So God blinded the eyes of Calvinists which is why they keep on making errors after errors." I say, Calvinists have become stupid and callous.

[@John3.36]

Calvinism is a different gospel. Different gospels are not from God. Satan is the one who blinds. You do the math.

[@stegokitty]

You have God drawing "everyone" and yet not everyone is saved. But Jesus said (and He repeated this phrase three times in chapter 6 so that means something VERY SPECIAL) in connection with the Father's drawing "... and I will raise him up on the last day." Therefore there are those who are NOT drawn by the Father, otherwise they would come to Christ, because Jesus said that ALL whom the Father draws DO INDEED COME to Him. This is also connected to those who the Father has given to the Son -- they are raised up on the last day. And if there are those whom the Father has given to the Son and they are raised up on the last day, then there are equally those whom the Father has NOT given to the Son, who will not be raised up on the last day. The same goes for "everyone who learns from the Father ..." what do they do? They COME to Christ "... and I will raise him up on the last day." And therefore those who do NOT learn from the Father are not raised up on the last day. Checkmate Leighton. No amount of fancy footwork gets you out of this.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@stegokitty "All whom the Father draws DO INDEED COME to Him." Which verse says this, if you don't mind me asking?

[@stegokitty]

@@losnfjslefn8857 I'm not sure why you're asking me this. You need only to read the 6th chapter of John. The passage doesn't say literally "All whom the Father draws DO INDEED COME to Him." Nor does it need to. It is inferred by the rest of the passage, for the simple fact that ALL whom the Father draws come to the Son. Not SOME of those whom the Father draws come to Christ but ALL whom the Father draws come to Christ. This is inescapable, especially considering that ALL who, the Father gives to the Son come to Him, and EVERYONE who learns from the Father comes to the Son. These are the very words that the anti-grace crowd like to use to try and force the Scriptures to say that God truly intends to save every single person throughout history without exception, when the Scriptures simply will not allow for such a nonsensical interpretation. Each of these words such as all, everyone, all men, everyone, by necessity are qualified. This is why in this chapter, they are all immediately qualified to show WHO it is that comes to the Son and is raised up on the last day -- it's all of those whom the Father has given to the Son; it's all of those who've been drawn by the Father; and it's all who learn from the Father. No one else comes to the Son and is raised up on the last day. And Jesus makes this clear when he says "No one CAN come to me UNLESS the Father draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day ... and then toward the end of the chapter, where He repeats the phrase with a slight modification that drives the point home inescapably ... "This is why I told you that no one is able to come to me unless it is GRANTED to him by the Father." And this is clear for anyone approaching the Scriptures honestly. Only people such as Leighton Flowers REFUSE to allow the Word to mean what it says and plainly teaches, because Flowers has an agenda, and it's a wicked one that is in love with the wicked wills of fallen men, and ignores the facts -- no, DENIES the fact, that the Scriptures teach the inability of stone-hard hearts to turn away from their ins (which they love) unto Christ (whom they loathe) in faith and repentance. Flowers wants to give the glory to lie in the will of the spiritually dead sinner, rather than the sovereign Lord. The words that I placed therein "do indeed" are simply there to emphasize this fact. Is that helpful?

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@stegokitty So, if all who are drawn DEFINITELY, without fail, come to Christ, if "drawing" = conversion, then we have a problem, because that would have to mean John 12:32 teaches Universalism. John 12:32 KJVS And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will *draw ALL* men unto me. John 6:44 simply says that, when the Father draws, man CAN come. Not necessarily that he WILL come, but he CAN. The word "can" is very important in that verse. Going down to John 6:65 🔸John 6:65 KJVS And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Jesus repeats what He said in John 6:44 here in John 6:65. 🔸What is the assumption with this verse? That the reason these people turn away is because Jesus has something to give and He has decided not to give it to these people in particular? What is being given and to whom has it been given? What has been withheld... And from whom? 🤔 In John 6:32, Jesus says *to these SAME people* that God has *GIVEN* them the true bread from heaven. In John 6:27 Jesus says He shall GIVE them the meat that endures unto everlasting life. So perhaps the problem isn't that something is not being *given to* these people, perhaps the problem is that the something being given is not being *received by* these people? Which would line up perfectly with John 1:11. John 1:11 KJVS He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[@stegokitty]

@@losnfjslefn8857 //So, if all who are drawn DEFINITELY, without fail, come to Christ, if "drawing" = conversion, then we have a problem, because that would have to mean John 12:32 teaches Universalism.// 1) Drawing does not EQUAL conversion. I never said that. Why would you put words into my mouth? Drawing is necessary FOR conversion. Read the passage. ALL whom the Father gives to the Son, ALL whom the Father draws to the Son, ALL whom the Father has enabled to come to the Son DO COME to the Son and are raised up by the Son on the last day. What part of this are you not grasping? He qualifies who it is that is raised up on the last day - it’s those whom the Father gives to Him, which are the same whom the Father draws and enables to come to Him in the first place. //John 12:32 KJVS And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.// I rather addressed this already, but I’ll try again. Words like “all, everyone, all men” etc., are always qualified. The Arminian says that “all” (et al) means every person without exception. The Scriptures teach that “all” (et al) means all men without distinction. In fact, the words translated “all men” literally means “all kinds of men”, just as the verse that says “the love of money is the root of all evil” cannot possibly mean “the root of all evil without exception” because there’s plenty of sins that have nothing whatsoever to do with money. Rather the translation should be “the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.” Jesus is the Savior of all kinds of men, NOT JUST JEWS. And that’s the second point, because the first point is the Jesus IS the Savior. He IS their Savior. He is not potentially their Savior, and He is not a failed Savior. See Arminianism has a god who tries and tries and tries but fails miserably. There was in fact, the distinct possibility (based upon the doctrine that fallen men do have the “free will” to do absolutely anything, which of course puts God on the defensive) that not a single person would’ve come to Christ in faith and repentance. Indeed Jesus was lifted up and He draws all men to Himself. All kinds of men, not just Jews. But this was not understood until after the resurrection, and the vision that Peter received with the unclean animals. //John 6:44 simply says that, when the Father draws, man CAN come. Not necessarily that he WILL come, but he CAN. The word "can" is very important in that verse.// Yes indeed the word “can” is VERY important in that verse, because it means that no one is ABLE to come to the Father UNLESS the Father draws them, and UNLESS they learn from the Father. And ALL of these are raised up by Christ on the last day. You keep skipping over this fact. You also are adding words to the passage that are simply not there. You’ve also negated what Christ said. Jesus said “No one CAN (no one is ABLE) to come to Me UNLESS the Father draws him, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.” You’re doing the same thing that the Pharisees were doing when Jesus was speaking. You’re getting offended at what He’s saying. And this is why He said to His disciples “THIS IS WHY I SAID TO YOU that no one is ABLE to come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED to Him by the Father.” It is already implied that those whom the Father grants the ability to come to the Son are then raised up on the last day. To suggest that this simply means that God enables everyone to come to Christ is to say that Jesus was wasting His breath. There’s absolutely no good reason to bring up such a set of hot words if they don’t really mean anything. There’s no good reason to even bring up GIVING, or DRAWING, or LEARNING, or ABILITY if everyone is given this drawing and learning and ability. The remainder of your response is, without being ugly about it, a total mess. It seems to me that you’re very busy trying to not take the clear teaching of the Scriptures to mean what they mean, without a bunch of gymnastics.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@stegokitty "Why would you put words in my mouth?" Relax, I'm not putting words in your mouth, I just said that to emphasize my meaning. 1) In regards to John 6:44 The core of this verse is 🔸"...man can come..." Now add on the modifier: 🔸"NO man can come..." That would be the end of it, *if* it weren't for the exception that is put in there: 🔸"NO man can come, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me ____ him:" And really, here you could insert whatever verb you wanted. It could be "draws", "drags", "forces", "attracts", whatever. It also doesn't matter how "STRONG" of a verb is used here. Why? Because the end result of the Father doing the verb is the same regardless: man *CAN come* . All that needs to happen is for the *exception* to take place. 🔸"NO *man can come* , EXCEPT..." 🔼 The word "NO" is mitigated by the word "EXCEPT". So long as the "exception clause" takes place, *man CAN come* . 🔸"And I will raise him up on the last day." WHO is raised up on the last day? The man who CAN come? Well what if he *doesn't* come? Is he still raised up? So WHO is raised up? The answer is already given in the same chapter: John 6:35 KJVS And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: *he that COMETH to me shall never hunger; and he that BELIEVETH on me shall never thirst* . John 6:40 KJVS And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, *and BELIEVETH on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day* . Everyone can come to Christ, but it's those that actually come to Christ, those that believe on Him, that are the ones that are raised up on the last day.

[@alonzomccloud4530]

If the word isn’t read In its context you can make any passage say any thing. I used to read like you, It’s scary after God lead me out of it. It’s funny how we read a regular or a business letter we can understand those letters. But in Gods word we see what it say yet if it doesn’t agree with what the doctrine teaches, we want to twist it, maybe not purposely but one will still be judged. But I see that you do what you do on purpose, you go to other passages to throw people off . v.35. Christ said he is the bread of life and he that cometh to me shall never hunger or the person who believeth shall never thirst. But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and believe not. Is Christ saying the same thing leighton said, they chose not to believe. well that’s half true let’s see how Christ further open up the reason why . Christ said , “ All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; …” so what is Christ saying here ? He just said it, I believe leighton didn’t go here is because it’s void of human agency. All that come to Christ is given to Christ by the Father , Christ told them “…No man can come to me …except the Father… draw them. “ every time the man try’s to explain a passage of scripture he always brings his dump truck full of eisogeses with him ready to dump it between the spaces in a sentence . Christ said they believed not , because , they weren’t given to him of the Father. Because all those who are given to me of my Father, shall come to me. He didn’t have to jump around but he did and it was for a purpose. They chose not to believe because they wouldn’t , they chose not to believe because they couldn’t. That’s why no man can seek after God…

[@djparsons7363]

God isn't going to draw ANYONE to Jesus if they don't recognize his Father Jehovah. The trinity lie leaves the Father out of the equation since they say Jesus is God. He will NEVER draw anyone to Jesus or to himself if they believe in a trinity.

[@alwaysgood3913]

Jesus is God. The Trinity is the truth. Read 1 John. If you deny the Son you don't have the Father. Yes we believe Jesus is God, as to his nature or ontology but he's not the same person as the Father.

[@John3.36]

Psalm 102:1, then 102:12, 102:25-27 (All talking about God the father, not a creature), Psalm 45:6-7 Hebrews 1:8-12 (Who is talking to the Son? Also, the Father describes the Son as Almighty God)

[@chaddonal4331]

I think you are revealing a problem far bigger than the one you are tying to solve! YaHWeH is one God who has revealed himself successively as Father, as Jesus, the Son, and as the Holy Spirit, who was sent by them.

[@ShaneHolloway-b8g]

Leighton makes up a context that believers in God are given to Christ. No Arminian will ever find such a verse in the Bible. We were given to Jesus before he ever came down from heaven (Jn 6:38-39). We were given when God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) when God already gave us his grace in his purpose for salvation before the world began (2 Tim 1:9). Leighton gets the order backwards by placing our actions before regeneration or being of God when one must be of God first according to Jesus (Jn 8:42-47). The draw is effectual as the definition of the word and Jesus following words - “AND I WILL raise him up at the last day. Not only this, but this is the exact same context as the election before it (Jn 6:37-39)…

[@jeremiah5319]

Indeed, Arminians put the cart before the horse, assuming that people seek God, when God says that NONE seek God... not even one! Psalms 14:1-3 It's the poison soteriology adopted by the less-Reformed protestants, who have adopted the soteriology of the Roman Catholic Church, often without even realizing it, because they're clueless about the doctrines of the Vatican.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

God predetermined everything before creation. Sinful beings cannot do anything to earn their salvation. We cannot even respond to an 'invitation' because we are sinful. What unfolds in our temporal realm is what has already been predetermined before creation.

[@joshbohn2884]

Exactly! And the sins you committed yesterday, along with every single atrocity ever committed, was causally determined by God.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

@@joshbohn2884 Evil acts are done by Satan. Why do you choose to accuse the innocent God, but not the guilty Satan?

[@gregorylatta8159]

So says Satan!

[@freeguy7628]

God said "I WILL destroy Nineveh in 40 days." Not I might, or maybe I will. He said He will destroy it in 40 days. And they repented, so He didn't. Look. I don't care how sophisticated a robot is. It can have skin and bones and even blood. If you pre program something, it's a robot. That is what it is. Replace the metal with skin, the wires with muscle, and the hydraulic fluid with blood. It does not matter. If you have no choice, you are a robot. If you are a robot, you do not love God, He just determines you to love Him. You don't exist. You have no desires or thoughts or will outside of God's decree. Go ahead and believe that is the relationship He wants with you, but it doesn't make sense to Provisionists and you even believe God determined us to reject it!

[@ryleighloughty3307]

@@freeguy7628 Before creation, God predetermined that the Ninevehans would repent. But in the earthly realm, he gave them the free will to do so. In this manner, predestination and free will comfortably coexist.