3rd Person Aiming Is Cursed (this is why)

[@StruthGaming]

🎯Check out the new sleeves and ClawMate mouse mod here - struthgaminggear.com/

[@DawnSentinel]

That chopstick showcase of the mechanics was a really good way of illustrating it.

[@luxmiyu]

🥢

[@NP_Com]

🍜🥢

[@taoseefaziz7188]

+1 this comment, was about to make this comment myself

[@lascur0513]

i wish more third person games implemented shoulder aim switching. it reduces frustration from right hand advantage peeking and is much more interesting than only right shoulder aiming. it kinda adds another element to aiming similar to how your strafes affect your aim. APB reloaded did this really well, it is hands down the best third person shooter so far

[@GantzProxy]

Was the best game as a kid, with so much potential. RIP APB.

[@ashrimpcouldnotdothis]

metal gear does this too and shooting feels really good despite having been based on gamepad controls for most of the series

[@RosaGofAPB]

@@GantzProxy There was just a huge update and there's mad players now.

[@RosaGofAPB]

Yeah APB is probably the best but Rogue Company did it pretty well too. If a 3rd person shooter doesn't have shoulder switching, I ain't playin it lol

[@GantzProxy]

@@RosaGofAPB no fucking way

[@FalconHgv]

Holy cow I wasn't tripping when I thought I hit more shots on the right💀💀

[@pathylover69]

same 💀

[@rjnsg2953]

Fr

[@RemedieX]

There's other factors for MnK as well, if you're right handed, aiming to the right gives you more range of motion than moving your arm inward, so it's usually more comfortable to aim to the right than left. It's also because the weapon tends to be on the right side and aligns with the target the most, which subconsciously also helps us align our shots better. There's a lot of reasons why right side might be easier, but for third person, yes, this video potentially explains your experience, and it applies to both mnk and controller, although, affects mnk more.

[@FalconHgv]

@@RemedieX does it really give more RoM? Another thing i find makes it harder to aim is because the weapon is where the bullets come from (unlike in most fps), and as such you can hit weird shots without having your aim on target. I've played a few TPS games and honestly I think we should just have the ability to switch shoulders. Iirc M.a.r.s, APB and even Ghost Recon and Caliber had the option to switch shoulders

[@katsuLucas]

@@FalconHgv I was thinking the same thing, but remembering of Metal Gear V. That game mechanics are peak.

[@GrubbyWubby]

i like the part where he talked about deadlock

[@sirgideonofnirtheall-knowi1881]

I like the finals clip

[@tykey252]

Another problem with 3rd person games for me personally is how you get free information being able to see around corners/cover. Not only is this actual wall hacks but it encourages ratting. You never know if someone is watching you until you're being shot at. Also right side peak advantage.

[@okene]

FPP games also have peak advantage

[@gameguy301]

@@okene first person peakers advantage is a product of network latency, the person on the move gets information first vs the person that is holding position. 3rd person games have this same problem, in addition to the camera offset allowing you to see around corners without exposing yourself at all, even while standing still.

[@okene]

@@gameguy301 I agree that tpp kinda sucks for looking through corners, but deadlock isn't so shooter focused. There's high ttk and you can't just sit in a corner when you should be farming

[@DimeDCSGO]

Not even close to the same thing man​@@okene

[@killertruth186]

But it has a big disadvantage when peaking from the left. Since the camera doesn’t switch.

[@theendofthestart8179]

I loved the part where is talked about why especially dead lock at time stamp... uh... erm... oh.

[@drsupermonk7831]

Excuse me, he does mention it at 11:17, referring to deadlock as “Valve’s upcoming game.”

[@CommandoBlack123]

Another thing. You can peak a hallway on your right without showing your player model. But on the left you cant peak unless your player model has already crossed half the hallway.

[@threeDeeBeginner]

You should add, that the right peak without showing your player model only works when you are at a distance more or plus than 7m. Otherwhise you're shooting in your cover at a point.

[@mangogoose23]

angle advantage is in fps games as well though

[@Nisowyd]

@@mangogoose23not as significant as it is in 3rd person

[@kayanono]

Bro tried to sneak deadlock into the title lmao

[@StruthGaming]

Funnily enough this video was made for Deadlock but the embargo at the time stopped me from using any footage or directly referencing it. Right after posting the video the embargo was lifted :) classic.

[@eebbaa5560]

@@StruthGaming i'm still confused because i feel like you didn't discuss flick aiming enough but that's what i'm most curious about. i'm playing lady geist in deadlock and i want to know what perspective tricks or visual information i should keep in mind in order to improve my aim and hit more headshots. where should i start?

[@Acusumano25]

any third person shooter that doesnt implement a shoulder toggle is honestly substandard in today's age.

[@Lessen0]

Initially this bothered me about Deadlock but it really seems to be an extremely intentional part of the whole design, including the map design and character/animation design. They’re wholly committed to the right-side-bias as a core part of the gameplay, so I guess I respect it.

[@chefaku]

2:34 this matters, i remember in Fortnite being trapped and aiming with the shotgun is a lot easier

[@samualka7646]

I played a lot of FPS and TPS and honestly never really tought about this, the best solution would be to implement shoulder swap in every TPS

[@MarseloConocelo]

In Warframe, you can change the side your camera is on the fly by pressing the (iirc) h key.

[@tzav]

This is why i don't like 3rd person shooters especially for multiplayer.. aiming feels so weird and inconsistent

[@puddel9079]

There are examples of third person games with a camera side switch button, WarFrame is among those. If you ever play one again, check the controls and see how things change when you can swap camera angles.

[@curiruri]

Imagine they let you flip the side of your character the camera is on

[@thechugg4372]

Almost like this has been a thing for years

[@curiruri]

@@thechugg4372 yeap it is I'm well aware

[@sopadebronha]

I remember being able to do it in older ghost recon games. I'd like to have more modern 3rd person games with this option.

[@-thatsmafntzy212]

U played s4 league

[@curiruri]

@@-thatsmafntzy212 league has seasons?

[@pian-0g445]

One thing I’m surprised hasn’t really been adopted is shoulder switching. (I’m sure there’s a few examples, but the one I remember the most is Transfofmers Fall of Cybertron. They not only do shoulder switch, but the side your weapon is on). Or even a central camera like old Star Wars Battlefront

[@crthejediknightninja]

So I played a lot of Ghost Recon Phantoms/Online, which was a third person shooter, but it also had shoulder switching, which I think should be a standard in every TPS game, but since I have experience I'm kinda used to the wonky 3rd person aiming feeling, and I'm locking Deadlock.

[@Lucas0100mine]

Rogue Company shoulder switching was very helpful and mitigated this problem. I wish more games would do that when dealing with third-person shooting.

[@suikarbus]

Thanks. I have played first-person games+RTS/Mobas for most of my life and hopped on deadlock recently. Except for fps issues, I could not understand why my aiming was so clunky in that game. I kinda thought that it must be connected with 3rd person perspective but I did not know about camera movement mechanics, so I thought that the character model itself is distracting. I tried to "ignore" the character and aim as if I was in the first person still... and it not result in any success. I stopped playing deadlock for this reason but now because of your video, I might try some more

[@kitsune0689]

left right camera switch basically fixes this

[@WhatAMagician]

I think I've intuitively noticed this and always try to keep the opponent to my right and feel uncomfortable engaging targets to the left, but I never actually realized it was so different!

[@RemedieX]

Felt this in Marvel Rivals as well, and eventually someone made a well written post showcasing the inconsistencies. Hope they at least improve it

[@slayertwix5491]

There is a really underrated 3rd person shooter called Rogue Company that pretty much solved the 3rd person problem, I love the system they used for that and the gameplay is also pretty good

[@emeraldnext]

I was perfectly fine with third person aiming for like a decade until you cursed me with knowledge… 😭😭😭

[@_GLXC]

I always thought that when enemy is on my left, that it's bad "positioning" because my character could cover part of my target, so I dramatically turn so that my enemy stays in the right. But I very much agree with the sentiment against the idea that "you have to change your settings to match the other games you've been playing otherwise you'll play like TRASH". Not just for shooters specifically, but I also go into other types of games, play them a little while, and then tweak the control settings to fit how I would like it to be. I feel like its much faster to get used to a game that way than to constantly be fiddling with all the settings right away.

[@spammus1]

unironically I aim better in third person WITHOUT a crosshair, because that way I'm sorta focused on where my character is looking rather than looking at the crosshair itself

[@kylespevak6781]

Ive always hated the modern over-the-shoulder perspective. Old games used to have the camera centered

[@caitlan1375]

I feel like my aim is more consistent and accurate in 3rd person shooters than in fps

[@KairiCaitlyn]

Great breakdown, the base-solution for this aspect is Center Cam 3rd person [which I noticed FPS players like], or Camera Swap mechanics [rogue company really innovated here]. Also for LOS peaks no game has combatted it yet but i think there's a new method that can be created where the game registers what you would see in FPS & within that zone is what enemies you would be able to see in a TPS (so if ur behind cover, and ur vision would be blocked in FPS, you don't see those enemies even while 3rd person. {have like a UI with shadows/brighter area to show what you can and can't see}) - This would negate 3rd person right hand peaking and make the games feel more skillful.

[@FtwGojo420]

The best youtuber with logical aiming tips and guide ❤

[@jabroniyumerale6204]

There was the same problem with Nosgoth - asymmetric melee vs Ranged shooter. The TPS camera for humans was based on the right shoulder and character model hid 20% of the screen on the left side. Vampires could swerve melee attack into right and with 120 degree melee arcs you could hit for full damage while making aiming at you utterly ridiculous for both your mind AND your hand.

[@UmUs]

I really like how you explained it in here: 2:49 Really easy to understand and visualise

[@D34doneTTV]

IDK if this is more common than I think it is, but in the new Marvel Rivals game there are some quirks where the offset of the camera, and not being aligned great with the crosshair vs actual body/gun/sword, makes it so you can miss despite being like... literally right over the opponent with the crosshair. I noticed it first on Magik where her dash ability can miss if you aim to the left side of a character but still close/on them, you can miss the dash (which means missing CC, and losing followup damage, etc), then someone posted on twitter and video of the punisher and since the bullets come directly from the gun it can easily miss despite good crosshair placement at close range. I feel like i've not had this happen in third person games that ive played in the past so it was maybe a bit jarring to see, but plenty of comments are telling me its totally normal. But in deadlock, hit boxes kind of extend a bit to the sides/bullet magentism will mean you can still hit. In warframe, theres plenty of bullet mangetism, or the gun isnt what shoots the bullet and it comes from camera. Is there a way to better understand this? It's not an 'issue' like something they should fix, but to me it makes the game less intuitive and could lead to more frustration. Any other games have this happen as well, i was struggling to think of other examples. I feel like most third person games ive played dont have the same 'issue', but probably also dont have the same ability/shooting system

[@Tehn00bA]

This video made me realise why i strafe more left than right in games (joystick drift and keyboard wear bias).

[@n64slayer]

Good to know, now if I get shot in the back I'm only going to look to the right

[@gunk2116]

big brian

[@yukkahiro]

Bro was not invited to deadlock playtest so there's no footage of it

[@melonelon7590]

More like a clickbait tbh. And it works cause I am here and so are you.

[@madvoador1]

@StruthGaming 1 month ago Funnily enough this video was made for Deadlock but the embargo at the time stopped me from using any footage or directly referencing it. Right after posting the video the embargo was lifted :) classic.

[@robob4465]

I'm surprised that you did not mention crosshair position. Typically in a 3rd person game it is directly in front of the camera and the character tries to aim at that specific point. The issue is that now your character is aiming further to the right the closer whatever you're aiming at is,which REALLY messes up projectile weapon aiming and why I think 3rd person is inferior

[@Dudemcguy32]

No wonder 3rd person feels so bad

[@r1zmy]

APB Reloaded fixed the camera issue a long time ago by letting you switch from right to left shoulder with a hotkey

[@LOBOTOMYtv]

One of the many reasons mouse acceleration is superior. The left right thing is genuinely unnoticeable to the skilled mouse accel user who can automatically compensate for the difference. I think a crucial factor you didnt seem to touch on is the bullet origin point. In first person games its traditionally the same as the aim pivot point hence why you get headglitching in games like Apex, but more realistic games have the bullet spawn out of the gun. I'm probably the only person who liked this mechanic in battlefield 5 and its generally not widely enjoyed in first person but I suspect its quite common in third person since the visual discrepancy will be significantly more noticeable unless the developer separates the vfx to create bullet sparks from the muzzle and hides the bullet attached vfx until its passed a certain point (some games do this). I don't have any specific examples but I would imagine that this plays a big role in aiming differences. one last thing is that 3rd person games often apply more assists to the player, e.g. bigger bullets/targets and reduced spread. Imo aiming in a game that has these features is far easier than aiming in an fps especially if shoulder swapping is also present

[@natanmaia3575]

Love the visualization! Game programmer, I had no idea this happened and it makes total sense.

[@smlel8293]

man I hope we can change shoulder camera on deadlock in the future

[@JerryFlowersIII]

Zelda (botw and totk) avoids some of the misalignment issues by placing Link directly below the cross hair.

[@chococo1447]

says deadlock on the title, but doesn't show deadlock footage

[@Thispersonisreal]

it may don't show it, but good that he mentions it because the game is in beta which means valve can shift the camera with everyone understanding why they did it

[@domovoi_0]

Big brain video saving gaming. Love and blessings!

[@VoltsIsHere]

This is one of many issues with third person shooters, I really wish more games would be first person, the trend of third person games is making my game options very small lol. Insane cass clip at the beginning though that was so clean

[@kirbylover37]

Yeah, arbitrarily limiting yourself does seem limiting.

[@revolt_4588]

Maybe because the target is in a different distance lmao

[@Da.swaggermaista]

Now i can safely say that technically my aim doesnt suck that much, its just the third person camera ( ive always complained about not having a first person switch like h1z1)

[@YankeeYankeeYankeeYa]

big take away is if you are trying to dodge someones aim, rushing to your right/their left, will make it harder for them to mantain aim since you will move faster relative to their mouse

[@Dawy1235]

yeha thanks for the deadlock preview of their movement system

[@jessonagathoneis7319]

good video! continue I'm learining from u a lot ❤‍🔥

[@MrRolnicek]

Helldivers 2 still the only game so far that has done 3rd person aiming well. Although even there I got convinced there's aim-assist because of the way the aim snapped to the target in cases of extreme parallax.

[@ogogogm]

pve game doesn’t matter

[@MrRolnicek]

@@ogogogm The same mechanics can be used in PvP, nothing about this system makes it exclusive for PvE

[@mage3690]

Yeah, I'm not at all certain what it is about HD2, but the 3rd person aiming isn't borderline nauseating for me in that game. I think it's maybe the long ranges and small offsets, but I couldn't tell you for certain. Most modern gaming is very close up, where these issues are much more apparent.

[@ExoCalibra]

3:40 example is wrong. you turned more because you were closer to the enemy, the example before was right tho.

[@bigjerome-wz4uo]

was just about to comment this

[@araccoonstolemyradiator]

And he was closer to the enemy because of where his camera angle was, causing him to walk towards the enemy rather than truly to his right. That's what he was showing, movement depends on what side your camera is on.

[@harryvpn1462]

Listen to what he said again, he started in the same spot on both examples, but how you move is different

[@thyMomma]

The distance to the crosshair was the same tho

[@Donni_10]

Did you even listen? He was saying that he is getting far or close because of the difference in aiming and that causes him to turn more. LOL .

[@yokden1965]

Thanks for doing my suggestion your the best bro!

[@CPWS_The_Stingray]

Zoolander ahh gameplay "I can only make right turns"

[@leoncca]

That about explains it, never realized that offset existed. BTW always nice to see Remnant randomly, those games deserve a lot of praise. Shame Gunfire Games' next game is another Darksiders (although I do like that saga too) 'cause there are so very few pve rpg shooters as solid as that one.

[@p.4lvv]

I just hope they allow the offset to be swap between left and right

[@brettlivingston595]

Just curious what you sens. is in fortnite. I have to use a way lower one than i ever would in a first person game.

[@kucingcing]

My issue is hitting the walls when my gun is clearly not blocked.

[@pedroproenca4638]

it matters way less than what you showed though, because the camera is much less offset from the character in the actual game vs in creative mode (or whatever it was you made the demonstration in)

[@Jargoed]

I suppose that if you are fighting someone close range in a 3rd person game then it would be a good move to run to the right so the enemy has to look left, causing them to miss more shots

[@fizz_time7003]

That just makes it so you also have to aim to the left of you move to the right

[@Jargoed]

@@fizz_time7003 good point tbf but if you were to practice aiming to the left specifically then that would put you at an advantage? at least it would be good if you wanted to disengage, say they get the jump or you're losing the fight?

[@killertruth186]

I also believe third person is much harder if not impossible to peek around the corners. Since the camera is only one direction.

[@OK.156]

The chopsticks showcase would of been better if the X mark where the same distance

[@Tehn00bA]

Metal Gear Solid V had the best and most intuitive 3rd person camera, since you could change shoulders and the game would tell you if your shot was obstructed. On the other hand, GTA V has the typical bad 3rd person camera, where shots come out of the camera except when they are explosives, which results in you shooting around corners and yet blowing yourself up.

[@That_Kazuma]

bro thanks for this thats horrible tho like left side removes half my sensitivity thats horrible thanks for sharing great job

[@Builimacen]

I like how you guys are always, X cm to 360 in game and i'm like each game 1 different config coz i have no idea how to make it a standard lol ^^

[@PapstJL4U]

With Paladins centred, but height increased properties, left-right would be identical, but up-down would be different? With going up being fast, then going down?

[@Thispersonisreal]

up down doesnt matter as much as left and right, in shooter games where locking onto an enemy is important it doesn't matter if you hit headshots or not, you need to shoot the enemy FAST

[@valentinnoonspecial]

looks like we should start seeing centered 3rd person. plus it gives of the oldschool feel from ps2 games. i miss it now seeing it

[@carl5939]

centered works good like in Battlefield Heroes. but APB reloaded made left/right shoulder switch work perfect too.

[@nate000088]

easy solution is to treat your center aim more rightward, but it won't fix the offset

[@abduktedtemplar]

Rogue Company is peak 3rd person gunplay and movement.

[@RosaGofAPB]

RoCo and APB for sure.

[@Lo0nex_]

Gunz the duel beats all

[@RosaGofAPB]

@@Lo0nex_ Never heard of it but now I gotta check it out lol

[@jwberry23]

RIP Rouge Company.

[@RosaGofAPB]

@@jwberry23 I was just on there last night. Not what it used to be but it's still there lol

[@hankthehunter]

Consider having a guide to how to spot enemies with your eyes quicker, what to focus on

[@LongerThanAverageUsername]

Soft eyes

[@hankthehunter]

@@LongerThanAverageUsername what do you mean?

[@flubbledub5246]

This is very noticeable in Marvel Rivals, at least before release

[@MiningJack777]

God, the chapter 3 gameplay... Brings back memories

[@Michael4Times]

do you think you could add some hitscan weapons to the map for those of us just playing reload royale rn?

[@devondorr8212]

Basically you're playing on two sensitivity. Which honestly doesn't feel that bad becuase moving left and right your mouse already feels different

[@austinday3815]

Incredibly based & helpful video

[@jc008titan]

never got an issue with 3rd person games, they feel the same, even easier to aim on them.

[@RED_XLR]

Shoulder swapping on command would be appreciated, if not then go full fps because it's more competitively balanced. Peaking right side corners is better than left side corners in this third person camera angle.

[@uczen1606]

Good video. The way 3rd person aiming works always bothered me. It's just so unintuitive. I'd rather have the option to have shots come from the barrel and the aim be zeroed in to some fixed value like 50m allowing you to hit a target if the battel and the aim point at 50m intersect. You could even have the crosshair shift on the enemy body when it does that for easier visual representation. Tarkov does it this way and it's pretty nice(without getting into what a shitshow that game is as a whole is) p.s. even though Tarkow is 1st person you dont technically shoot from the center of the screen but from the barrel

[@zitchaden]

i hope for view side switching to be added 🙏

[@jumpintheairxd]

got it, stayig on the left of people in deadlock

[@FyXeeu]

The division was probably the best one ngl

[@Kajnake]

Risk of rain 2 just placed the camera high up instead of to the side

[@Appletank8]

how does the 3rd person camera offset affect how projectiles are pointed at?

[@GrizzTheShaman]

Hey Struth LOVE your videos man! You helped me more than you could ever know! But I noticed one of my FAVORITE videos of yours on the Overwatch player Fl0w3r ? I noticed it’s set to private 😢 is there any reason why? Is the jnto out of date or something? I’d love to watch that video again man broke my heart seeing it set to private 😭😭😭😭

[@efecanss]

Can you make a video on how to adjust x and y sensitivity for fortnite?

[@Rorther]

Well, actually on reallife, since we are mostly right-handed, it's also aim to the right. And reality isn't ruined because of it.

[@sak-atWork]

this is why I hate close quarters combat in Fortnite, feels sooo clunky

[@SlongestKongest]

Idk why they cant just add a shoulder switch option

[@ammi5311]

Naturally tpa be a game you hug left wall and exposed you opponents on the right

[@ketos8315]

What fortnite settings do you use in aim arena to align it better with "valves upcomming MOBA Shooter" ?

[@yoendyvictor2830]

What is that game called in 4:57

[@neon-lake]

Remnant 2

[@XFR18]

I don't see the problem. It's its own genre, it creates it's own strategies/metas to follow

[@Skeleleman]

Wish it switched to ironsight on right click like in mgs5

[@shicako00]

Am I tripping or is your distance from the targets not the same in the example after the chopsticks

[@coletrainhetrick]

This is actually a reason i prefer 3rd person because it means everyone elses aim sucks too. I cant play gsmes like csgo and COD.

[@goose9067]

i learned how to aim in a 3rd person game and it feels so much better aiming in 3rd person for me than 1st person. Id really like to fix it, but idk where to start. does anyone have any tips?

[@hiiambarney4489]

Sooooo. Shoulder swap camera?

[@acrylix3073]

1st / 3rd person toggle is best. And the third shouldn't have an x offset.

[@sagreroart1090]

It doesnt matter at all, is just a skill you have to practice like any other and all the players are playing under those same conditions.

[@Altraly]

Yeah it's not an issue, it's just something you get used to.

[@incomplet1396]

Its just less consistent. Since i switch between 3rd person and 1st person games daily it's annoying to adjust