Sunday V5 and how I judge a character's kit & eidolons | Honkai Star Rail

[@qihaku]

NOTE: making predictions based on the track record of the game is not dooming. With each meta disruption, there was insane HP inflation and older characters being left behind. Worrying about Sunday's long term viability (and his usage with old DPSes) based on his kit and eidolons is not doom posting. Timestamps 00:00 START 00:36 Sunday V5 Community Reaction 01:40 Sunday's nerf targeted his synergy w/ non-summon DPS 03:50 "This (nerf) isn't a big deal" and why we need to look deeper 06:10 Genuine Doom Posting 06:39 What is Toxic Positivity vs What isn't? 14:22 Personal Bias aka "how I judge a character's kit & eidolons" 17:17 Unable to enable their own gimmick by themselves vs Self enablers of their own gimmick 18:51 Depends on RNG (in any fashion) to work vs No RNG required 22:15 How easy it is to make them useless in a battle 23:22 Flexibility in the way they operate 24:50 Niche vs Universal 25:30 Dedicated Supports 27:05 Vertical Investment being stat sticks vs Vertical Investments being transformative 31:20 Requires high investment vs low investment 32:00 Requires technical/knowledge to use vs easy to use 33:00 Why do I think Sunday's V5 was extremely disappointing 38:03 Closing thoughts

[@quaremoritor]

Your idea of e6 sunday making a non-summoner a summoner is so good😢 now I'm sad it isn't true. I'm still gonna go for e6 though just for the love of the game

[@pally3370]

I'm going to preface this by saying I was someone who was heavily looking forward to Sunday to use with my Jingliu and Acheron (e2) teams. I'm more so heavily disappointed at how Sparkle has been thrown to the side. She has no proper niche anymore except monoquantum. Sunday could have been a perfectly fine unit at e0s1 without trampling on Sparkle's shoes. Now, he is more SP positive than Sparkle, 100% AA, better in Robin teams, even better in DHIL teams. Now, with the V5 nerfs, EVERYONE seems to have a bittersweet taste in their mouth. I truly don't understand what Hoyo was thinking.

[@nykout]

I agree that the V5 nerf has left a bittersweet taste, however Sunday is still BiS for 1.x hypercarries like Jingliu and Seele

[@qihaku]

For real though, if I am being honest, I really hate this too. Regardless of how strong he is, I hate the fact that Sunday didn’t get a kit that’s more unique. No, he just directly power creeps another harmony character. Thank you Hoyoverse 😢.

[@MyTrommer]

​@@qihaku My hot take: Sunday's boring kit results from Hoyoverse's struggle to nail down the servant mechanic in time. 3.0 is just a few months away, and we're still getting new information about how servants work. When development on Sunday began, I doubt they had a solid idea of how servants would work. If Sunday had been given an interesting kit, it could have caused a bunch of problems later down the line. There is much hype surrounding the Fate Stay Night collab, and there is NO WAY they're gonna risk it with an experimental Sunday. That's why he's sparkle+, and that's why his Eidolans suck. Sunday is the stand-in support until Hoyoverse feels comfortable with the servant mechanic.

[@qaztim11]

@@MyTrommer I agree with this take, from what we have learned about Amphorius and the language surrounding the "servant" characters. It really does feel like amphorius is going to be one of the main things that links us to the Fate collab, and its probably easier to controll the meta by making a strong, if not derivative character, instead of making something extremely unique before the meta settles down, and in case they want to course correct, it's easier with simpler derivative characters. People tend to forget that Hoyo tries planning stuff years ahead of schedule

[@Greennaris_Rater]

Me who pulled Sparkle specifically for my boy DHIL:

[@astsophia]

Going of your point on making higher eidolons being something fun, I, a completely f2p, COMPLETELY AGREE! Having creative eidolons on a unit is accessible and enhances my gameplay experience because of the support system this game has, if I want to farm stuff? Yeah I can use e6 feixiao from someone and have fun, I tried so many e6 characters on this game as a f2p on multiple battles is actually so fun, sadly they are lacking creativity recently from what I can tell

[@shuryt]

I didn't follow sunday beta because I will focus everything on fugue so I don't have a lot of thought about him but I was curious now that he is finish... my opinion of fugue on the other hand, she is heavy focus on her eidolon. At base she is better than hmc but not game breaking (if you have not rappa or boothill). I have rappa so it's good. But her eidolon, damn, her e1 is really good but her e2 literally unlock her true ultimate. I can't understand why it's not in her base kit, they should have let her gain energy with her e2 meaning she can use her ult a LOT more often but at least it's usefull but no. They have to be a dick and lock it behind a paywall :( her e4 for once is brutal, a separate multiplier x1.2, a very good stats stick and her e6 make her a very good breaker and transform her into ruan mei. That busted Combined that with her lc...I saw A LOT of cope "Luka lc is as good", I call bullshit. I just test on fribel and the damage with or without especialy if you have a lot of reduce/ignore def is very big you can cap with luka. I saw my rappa dealing between 400-600 single target, up to 800k if I have lingsha e1s1 and rappa e1 (witch I don't). Sunday don't appeal me because my jinglyu is...well dead and my yunli don't need him rn. 500k per ult is enough and my sparkle do a good job. But damn, the superbreak ceiling with fugue is high BUT it's eidolon+lc or nothing and that a bummer :(

[@kamisama4427]

Before I watch this vid, I also just wanna say I really hate how much more comfortable and powerful his light cone makes him. I get that he’s supposed to be for summon meta, but he really does feel like half a character without s1 esp, and it’s even worse after his v5. It’s been happening with a lot of charas lately esp after Acheron (it’s still the worst for her), but yeah it’s just not a comf feeling esp bc f2p pulls are rare. I tested Bronya e1s1 with Argenti in an MoC private server, compared with e0s0 (Bronya lc) Sunday, and they both got the same 27 cycles. I used the same relics and speed tuning for both, and this was v3 Sunday which was his best. V5 is even worse I’m guessing. Sorry for the rant but yeah that’s just how I feel abt it, it’s so bad cries. I still might pull for him just bc I love Sunday, but it’s very hard esp when Herta’s in 3.0

[@qihaku]

Hey! Thanks for watching. Totally not a rant since it's related to the video. I actually talk about how his S1 should've been part of his kit. Sunday w/o his lightcone doesn't feel great. BTW V5 definitely worse but not by a huge margin for now (though nerf feels bad).

[@kamisama4427]

@qihaku Yess I subbed, great vid and I agree on all your points for kit criteria. This is the reason why I devalue and criticize Acheron sm. After I saw Sunday’s kit and his lc, I got Acheron flashbacks and started feeling iffy about it him. Despite this, I still think he’s a WAY better pull than her, just bc he’s a strong harmony overall. But, as someone who doesn’t have an invested dps yet (I’m benching Acheron and not pulling her s1, mostly out of spite), it might be better for me to go for Herta. If I’m going for Sunday I’ll definitely want his LC which is painful, and at that point I most likely won’t have a proper endgame dps. If he didn’t need his lc, I could slap him in another team or still grab Herta s1 despite that, but the fact that he needs it is really pushing me away

[@Super-7327]

​@@kamisama4427 Acheron mains on subreddit coping that she'll get better when she's gonna get those supports for her kit, as if by that time that happens, the new meta DPS hadn't negged her by proxy 😂😂😂

[@Dino-2327]

Yeah it's the same with Fugue, for most of the break dps she is really not that good when comparing with HMC and when you say that people respond "you are dOoMpOsTiNg" + her ult is empty without her e2 + a lot of things in her kit just dont work well with FF :(

[@Tosca364]

I feel like this is discussion that is very important for the game going forward because their method to "kill" older meta to sell the newer one is very bad move in long run and players will soon realise when their fully invested E1-6 units perfom worse than E0S1 newer units, it's sucks. I always say that they should buff old units like other gachas do because they share the same value and cost (money) as the newer units but somehow some people disagree which really confuse me, like do they really let mhy take away their money like that? We should have guarantee that our units still viable even for the future meta maybe not top tier but still relevant. And no, eidolons are not buffs it's a total scam move to make us spend more on a units that should've been totally functional at E0. And pulling for new units just to "buff" old units is also a scam move like come on its very obvious by now, like why should we pull another LIMITED units just to make other badly designed LIMITED units to work? (Jingyuan case). I just hope that we got reassured by the dev that our pulls are worth it because this game is expensive like we can buy fully developed games with most expensive are 60-70€ while in this game 100€ is not even guarantee you get E0 units I just hope players don't this is normal. And thank you if you reading this long a** comment. I just frustrated really with this direction because I genuinely love this game narrative and it's characters, I really do and naturally want the best for it.

[@MdAzure]

Well if v5 would be final,i'll just go for sunday and his lightcones for my jy

[@qihaku]

We got V6 which was just wording changes so I think this is basically final.

[@jellifygirl]

Yep. V6 is usually exactly the same as live. It's so over 10% yunlibros (we definitely don't have enough damage% as it is)

[@MdAzure]

even if,that leaves space for hopium

[@sleepymilky]

playing around the need to get hit by the enemy is sooo annoying, I agree. there are times where I can't get my Sparkle's ult up in time for DHIL'S 3EBA cause she doesn't get hit. I'm also really disappointed with how they nerfed Sunday's E1 and rearranged his skill buff. i was looking forward to using him with my 1.X dps. for 2.X, I only pulled Acheron and Boothill, so they don't really care much for Sunday. and I don't really see myself pulling for servant meta out of spite. I hated how much they shilled SB meta. Himeko was my only SB unit and I cleared all content with her out of spite.

[@qihaku]

I think if you really like DHIL (I do too) and Boothill, Sunday still works great with them. Sunday enables Boothill with AA and energy. Boothill really wants both since he needs to be the one breaking the enemy and his ult implants phys weakness. DHIL works good with Sunday as long as Sunday has his S1. Without it might be a bit hard to use alone. OR you can also use Sparkle instead of getting S1 to remedy that. I'm definitely getting Sunday for my DHIL since i don't have sparkle!

[@sleepymilky]

@qihaku I do plan on pulling for Sunday too! I'm just kinda.... whelmed xD and you're right, I think I underestimated how nice Sunday will be for Boothill, compared to my E1S1 Bronya. he is less SP intensive than her. so that will be very nice (and the energy as well). so you decided to get Sparkle then? I remember watching your account review a few days ago, and you said you didn't like her, so you skipped (correct me if I'm wrong!) so what made you change your mind?

[@qihaku]

@@sleepymilky Oh no, I am not getting Sparkle. I'm getting Sunday E0S1 for DHIL (sorry if that was confusing).

[@sleepymilky]

@@qihaku oh, i'm so sorry, i might have misread! sleep deprivation moment. i wish you good luck on your Sunday pulls. hope you get him and his LC early after losing to Bailu xD

[@zack05-o3t]

it all because of Acheron she change the power level so high.

[@JackKnightAru]

It's refreshing to see someone who's this into a character being able to scrutinize their kit and ask for Hoyo to do them justice, despite the overall positive reception. I feel like I'm in a privileged position as an S3 Bronyacone haver and mainly intending to use Sunday with my Boothill. You raised an interesting issue with just how much SP generation they crammed into his kit and how it may be the herald of 3.x units guzzling SP at an unprecedented rate. I'm curious about the frame in which you worry non-E0S1 users might not keep up with the demand. As someone who's invested a lot of energy into the quality of my account, I find it easy to field 160+ SPD supports and sustains and frankly often end up generating more SP than I'm able to use. Do you think high-investment accounts should be feeling concerned as well?

[@qihaku]

@@JackKnightAru I’m not too sure how they might implement the SP stress but I think both the character summoning the servant and the servant themselves will use SP. This functionally means that you’re not adding one character that’s Sp negative but two “characters” (character + servant) that are SP negative. This is all speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

[@abrarahmed3495]

My only point is, why is there an issue if the Harmony character buffs the specific niche or archetype? Making every harmony universal will only make each one less relevant as you will just have to powercreep the older harmony unit always. So why is Sunday being a harmony unit for Summon meta a bad thing? I am just asking as I don't really see the issue with this, the DPS not being able to keep up is mainly because of the HP scaling of the enemy and their mechanics, not the units being weaker now, its an enemy design issue, rather than a unit problem imo.

[@qihaku]

"why is there an issue if the Harmony character buffs the specific niche or archetype?" Because they get left behind. This isn't Genshin where the end game is easy enough to clear with teams consisting of mostly 4*s. What happens after the summon/servant meta is done? We just throw it in the trash like we did with 1.X DPSes. " Making every harmony universal will only make each one less relevant as you will just have to powercreep the older harmony unit always." This already happened. Ruan Mei and Robin are extremely universal already and are BIS for most teams. Also, Sunday directly powercreeps Bronya and Sparkle, a niche hypercarry support. So something being "niche" does not mean it won't power creep. Additionally, you can powercreep by not just replacing a character but making non-niche teams unviable. This happened w/ superbreak. I'm sure hoyo has something up their sleeves that preferentially favours the new summon meta and old characters will definitely get left behind. But aside from that... because I prefer universal units. Not every unit needs to be universal but that's just my preference.

[@abrarahmed3495]

@@qihaku I can see that, fair enough, I think they need to make more good 4 star, and also they favour the meta too which I think is the problem here, they do not keep them relevant which creates this issue.

[@jmcMateo]

Make more vids bru I likey

[@Edengoldengardens]

skipping summon bronya coping for summon robin 🙏

[@qihaku]

honestly, valid as heck LOL

[@Cropsi-00]

I will take e0 s1

[@Cropsi-00]

You can take the males of amphoreus

[@aymenlahfa234]

Skipping sunday (my favorite character) cuz his kit is so freaking trash

[@JayceJXIII]

They nerf him for up sales new their new units is true

[@MACA_Zeon]

YIPPIE

[@OverlordMango]

I stopped pulling for DPS since Acheron. Yes, I do not have Acheron, Firefly, Boothill, Jade, Yunli, Feixiao and Rappa. Following the meta and HP inflation is very very annoying. I'm someone that went for E2S1 Ruan Mei and E2 Black Swan. At this point, I'm fully expecting a teamwide version to Sunday, just like Robin to Bronya/Sparkle. In essence. I do not trust Hoyo. I do not trust them since Acheron. I do not trust break meta having lasting power since we already saw the break bar being protected already. I do not trust the beginning of the summon meta since this is a whole new one they need to balance and plan out for the future. I can imagine some of the made up problems already: 1. Existing healers and shielders cannot effectively sustain the summons, they need specific (new) units. 2. Seele-like enemy that munches on squishy DPS and summons. 3. Enemies that has less resistance when hit with damage not on the player's turn. 4. Enemies that does guaranteed CC. Don't worry, the summons are immune.

[@qihaku]

Hey, thank you for the thoughtful comment. I haven't pulled for a new character since 1.6 so I totally understand how you feel. I don't trust hoyo either and I think people are way to naiive despite the fact that we lived to two meta disruptions that literally left old hypercarries in the dust. I can totally see Hoyo doing "Enemies that does guaranteed CC. Don't worry, the summons are immune" thing because isn't that how it works with Lingsha's summon? (Sorry, I don't have her so I am not sure but I believe this is true)

[@quaremoritor]

If you're so worried about meta that you don't like why do you even pay attention to it. Hoyo isn't gonna change its strategies just cuz u saved

[@OverlordMango]

@quaremoritor of course you pay attention to it. It's not like the events are immune to meta changes. I didn't have a break unit for the new simulated universe for example and I didn't want to pick the break specters because of it. Paying attention to it isn't harmful. Educating yourself with the intentions of the developers isn't harmful. What you're doing here isn't constructive. Voicing a more unified and informed dissent against severe imbalance isn't meaningless. I hate this reductionist attitude. "Just don't care about it lol they will never listen. " Like ok and how is that good for the game? Congratulations you've defended Hoyoverse. If you wanted another Genshin then you're doing your part. 👏 🎉

[@thederp9309]

@@OverlordMangoGenshin has dealt with powercreep way better tbh… all units are passable. Even 1.0 4* are consistently on the top. If this were Genshin 2 we wouldn’t have needed this discussion because powercreep wouldn’t be as bad as it is in HSR.

[@OverlordMango]

@thederp9309 less about powercreep than the hostility and ambivalence towards criticism. From both Hoyoverse and the community. But yeah the powercreep here is bad. The difference between 1.x and 2.x is too big. It's more prudent to hold back on the beginning of 3.x as well.

[@bronben5479]

Honestly I think this is a non-issue overall. The nerfs were extremely minor, his kit as of right now feels overtuned if anything. I get the appeal behind wanting him to be ‘universal’, but I feel like from a total game perspective that would feel like ass. We’d get a Robin situation, where the character would be used in every showcase of every DPS to exist, and people would get pissed off at it. Want to use your Blade? Robin. Want to use your Jingliu? Robin. What if she already on a Fei Xiao or Acheron comp? Womp womp. That sort of situation is far more annoying, so Sunday clearly having a niche and playing hard into that niche is fine by me. I feel like the point about getting hit is also very exaggerated. In the current game, its comedically easy to get hit by an opponent due to all of the AOE attacks most modern enemies have access to. Even if this theoretically gets taken away, they could always add an ER set in the future that could substitute for guaranteed consistency. Nobody using 1.X DPS also feels like a stretch. Before Sunday I’d probably agree, but with Sunday its been shown that even with a sustain, practically every single 1.X DPS can 1 cycle the upcoming 2.7 MoC. Does this put them on the same level as Acheron or Fei Xiao? Not really, but they are incredibly usable at bare minimum. I’m completely fine with his Eidolons being relative to other Harmony Eidolons (which is to say mediocre). Though, if there is any point I agree with you on, it’s that I would prefer more creativity with these Eidolons. They are pretty much just cookie cutter stat stick buffers. Some are more interesting than others, like his E1 giving a variable buff, or his E6 giving CR -> CD conversion, but something a bit more personable would have been interesting. That being said, the power behind said Eidolons is completely fine by me.

[@qihaku]

"his kit as of right now feels overtuned if anything" -- yes if we consider that he will work better with new summon DPSes, I can totally understand what you mean but here I was more focusing on his usability with old units and his ability to be used outside his niche. Summon/Servant meta will inevitably come to a end and I just don't want him to be left behind like Sparkle(+ traditional hypercarries). "I feel like the point about getting hit is also very exaggerated." Maybe you haven't had this issue because you have the most meta teams that plow through the end game or maybe you are anHSR god but as someone who doesn't have a character past 1.6, this matters a lot. We can agree to disagree. "Nobody using 1.X DPS also feels like a stretch." I don't know which part of the video you are talking about but I use 1.X DPSes... Probably I was joking "does nothing use all these old dpses anymore?" and you took that literally. "with Sunday its been shown that even with a sustain, practically every single 1.X DPS can 1 cycle the upcoming 2.7 MoC. Does this put them on the same level as Acheron or Fei Xiao? Not really, but they are incredibly usable at bare minimum." And what happens when new summon DPSes releases that work preferentially with Sunday and has busted damage? HP inflation. Old DPSes are going to be left behind regardless. I mention this the the video. HP of enemies have increased into the millions I don't see why won't they increase to account for how strong Sunday buffs the new units. "I’m completely fine with his Eidolons being relative to other Harmony Eidolons" Yes.. I assume that's because you won't pull for them and wasn't planning on doing so anyway? A lot of people who wanted to pull for his eidolons no longer wants to because they are lackluster. This specific convo really is not for those who weren't even going to vertically invest anyway. It's for me and other Sunday lovers who were ready to dish out E2S1 or even higher.

[@bronben5479]

@ fair enough, guess I just have a different perspective on these kinds of things. Sorry if I misconstrued some of your talking points/didn’t catch the joke. Good video overall, hoping the Sunday pulls go well

[@qihaku]

@@bronben5479 Oh no, I just wanted to clarify in case you didn't understand what I was trying say. It's okay to disagree with me (i'm not the arbiter of truth or anything like that). This whole video is like "personal bias" and how that affects how we judge characters. No flame here and my apologies if I sounded combative or anything like that. Thank you for watching the video.

[@leftoverdonut9550]

Yeah tbh this has been the weirdest beta changes I've ever seen lol☠️ especially since i think this is the first time they have ever nerfed a character for "overperforming" outside of thier niche(lol like reverse jiaoqiu effect) But i think we should be real about their intentions with sunday since we were/are the only ones who actually cared about him if you really think about it😭. Like no one gave af about Aventurine when he was about to come out only to find out he was super broken and have a lot of story influence and same for jiaoqiu but Sunday???? He was already set up with great lore and story presence and while tbh i hate the "__ is just a better version of___" he literally is just summon bronya with a tingyun ult no shade We still have to consider the fact that while yes he is amazingly synergistic with robin but for people who don't just don't have the jades to spend(skill issue) or ppl who don't care for summons he still has to compete against her for pull value regardless of summon meta Especially since we dont even know wtf a summon meta is but this is just how i feel

[@qihaku]

I don't follow leaks normally so I wasn't aware that this wasn't common but yeah it is so strange!