Surgical Black Ark - 2017 Edition

[@rickwhitson2804]

I have a black Arkansas from Dan's whetstones and I absolutely love that thing

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Sounds good, happy honing!

[@thomasgronek6469]

The matte surface definitely cuts better than a burnished finish (in my opinion)

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Yep, happy honing!

[@dendj55]

Haven't commented in awhile, but I am still enjoying every one of your videos Keith. Keep up the excellent information sharing and no nonsense, factual approach. It is a breath of fresh air.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Great to see you in the comments bro! I’m the same, I check in on everone’s channels, hardly ever comment though because I’m usually on my phone.... too many typos... lol

[@SaltySeaDaddy]

5:26 Love it. "...go down to like .1 if you want to like really trip to like fantastic." LOL... Listening while honing today on my Black Ark. Laughed my ass off! 🤣👍...

[@KeithVJohnson1]

That phrase - "trip the light fantastic' has been stuck in my head since high school and I have no idea where I heard it originally. Happy Honing!

[@ureasmith3049]

My theory on burnished, over polished surfaces is that the stone is glazed over by tiny metallic filings from the metal tool being used to "burnish." So I agree, Matted is better.

[@dcaddo2]

I quit soda close to a year ago. Wasn't easy, but I feel better now that I have in a LONG time. Keep it up. It's worth it. Great video. I keep my hard arks matte for chisels and knives, but I still prefer a more broken in surface and a little pressure for my razor arks. That's the beauty of this hobby-we all get to try out and settle in on what works best for us. And +1 on how special those high quality stones like that really are. If you've got one, hang on to it tight.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

I'm not quitting, just cutting back - a lot. About the matte surface, there are grades of matte and I believe most people misunderstand what's going on there; for example - a matte top isn't neccessarily less broken in than one that is more polished. But, at the end of day all that matters is if you like your shave.

[@oldschoolprepper2273]

Thank you so much for your video being born in Arkansas I seem to gravitate towards Arkenstone’s medium/ hard/ gray translucent and then a dan’s black all of which I have Lapped and then a nice stropping I love the smart edge I don’t mind the slowness of the black at all when you work with something with no forgiveness everything else is easy

[@KeithVJohnson1]

You're welcome and thank you !

[@Master...deBater]

That Greaves is really interesting! Did you ever end up doing a honing vid with it? I have two near mint 8/8 Greaves wedges with the same profile, and fencing foil engravings...I've never seen one in full hollow. If it is a regrind, it looks like it was done by someone who knew what they were doing! Fab stone BTW.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Can't remember. Don't even know if I still have it. Some reground Greaves razors look 'factory', not sure why that is. Yeah, the stone is killer. Thanks for watching and commenting, Happy Honing !

[@duster413]

That's one beautiful slab of SB Ark! Thanks for updating this! Thinking about picking up a SB or Trans Ark to step up the finesse of the edge a little.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hi Bill - if you go for it, I'd recommend getting a transluscent - you can identify them easily. SB Arks are not that simple to pick out and you do't want to wind up with a plain black that you paid top dollar for.

[@lukedupont8564]

Hey, I realize this is 3 years old, but what did you wind up with? I've found Dan's surgical black Arkansas to be extremely good -- slightly finer, even, than many transluscents. If buying vintage though, a transluscent might be the better route.

[@johnnyboydianno]

Another Keith classic ty great stone great info gratzie

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hey Johnny, thank you and you’re welcome!

[@joeynuggetz]

Regarding the whole dead flat debate, I wanted to share a recent experience. I was having less than stellar results setting a bevel on a razor. I would do some light strokes for a few minutes and then re-drew a mesh of pencil lines and then lapped the stone again on my reference granite plate that is guaranteed flat and you could see how the stone went out of flat just that quick. I then decided to set the bevel off 1K wet/dry paper on the same granite plate and I was blown away by how consistent the bevel set was. Felt like it just worked whereas I felt the stone was fighting me. Chalk this up to me being fairly new to razor honing as I'm sure other do not have this problem.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hey Joey, you’re spot on there. Right after I posted this vid, I took my Ark to the sink and sure as shinola, its was a wee bit out of flat. About 20 min and a few grams of SIC later, she’s dead-flat again.

[@littlebabycarrotful]

Hey, I'd like to say a matte stone is more consistent when the stones are burnished with tool marks, because the marks are not all equal. I burnish using the back of a DMT d8ee plate, but I only have a small stone. It still burnishes unevenly, but not too badly because the pressure is even. It's also pretty to see the same color as a DMT plate reflected back. But i have noticed a matte surface is more consistent. I burnish more to hedge my bets

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Very cool Neal - thank you for watching and commenting!

[@michaelshults7675]

I love my translucent Ark!! Never tried on razors, but they put a hair popping sharp edge on knives!! I agree they are not novice freindly. They are slow and a man has to have the patience of Job!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Transluscent Arks are fantastic finishers for straight razors.

[@ianevans2104]

Really struggling to finish my razor on my new surgical black from Dan's... Took your advice to heart and did like 900 passes after a shapton pro 12k. Edge only got worse, unfortunately. Think that was like my 3rd try. I'll give it a few more attempts, but I may not have enough skill for this stone!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Sorry to hear you're in the midst of difficulty - but that's part of the process sometimes I guess. Everyone runs into challenges - overcoming them is always possible but it'll take time sometimes. Make sure your stone is dead freaking flat (check with a real straightedge, not a ruler from Kmart and do not rely on lapping off pencil marks). Make sure the stone has been broken in by honing heavy steel stuff - chisels, knives, etc. Use as little pressure as possible and make sure you're not lifting the spine. Oh - and you need to come to a high-end ark with a high-end edge or you'll be there for a week trying to make what's really a 5k edge into something special. I used to jump from an Escher to the Ark - before that I was trying it with a Coticule and my efforts yielded very little. You'll get there - just keep honing.. hone hone hone - hone it good.

[@nicthemickatx]

@Devan Jackson ive always wondered if you could take 2 black or translucent stones of the same density and use them to lap each other against each other. I would imagine once it made a slurry it would really start to cut/ level/ polish much faster. If anyone had any insight let me know. I might give it a try.

[@nicthemickatx]

@Devan Jackson but once that slurry gets started it snowballs. I smoothed the face a ton of a small translucent going thought cheap synth stronge progression 440,1k, 3k. Slurry is a game changer. It worked beautifully.

[@nicthemickatx]

@Devan Jackson shr slurry lay might was coming from the synth stones i was thinking a translucent on. It was definitely polishing it.

[@trueblu8]

22:23 I want to be able to get a screaming edge. Lol.

[@carolinabarbershop]

Reminds me I need to get stuff from your store.

[@pedrotrust]

That's a beast of a stone ! Not long ago i started using British novaculite stones (charnley forest ,Lynn idwall) someone recommended using a piece of coticule to dress the surface instead of burnishing with steel. That worked really well ! I wonder if that would work as well on a hard Arkansas.. :/ Yes I need to get a surgical black, they're difficult to find here in UK.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

I usrd yo use a giant BBW, so yeah, a Coti would work too. Real SB Arks are hard to ID, a Trans is just as good usually and easier to spot.

[@jfg1104]

Dude you're funny as shit brother! Love your videos. I swear! We were brothers in another life!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Yo, my brother from anothamotha !! lol.

[@jfg1104]

@@KeithVJohnson1 I swear, when you said removing the first layer of skin on your face, I almost pissed my pants!!! It is how I feel after shaving with a new razor in a shavette!!! Horrible!!

[@780cornerpocket]

Another great video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Will a translucent and a surgical black perform similar? Will they produce equal edges? They’re about the same hardness right? Thank you Sir.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hi Jeff, great question, it’s an age-old debate actually. They’re natural stones so there can always be differences. These super-hard Arks are gauged by their specific gravity, and there is a range of hardness, not just a single number. So it would, theoretically, be possible for any given trans or SB to be ‘better’ (harder) than another stone in that class. Essentially, SB and Trans Arks are in the same class, and differences would be best judged on an individual stone-to-stone basis.

[@TheElektrikChair]

Damn... Where can I get a SB ark stone? Thks Keith.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Arkansas. .... :0)

[@gregoryburris6374]

Needed this video. Neighbor gave me a huge black Arki last night, with some honing oil. Im not going to use it till I do what you suggested to me. PATIENCE!!! Love this video man. Greg B.

[@hidude2124]

Hey Keith, I’m a 17 year old KNIFE sharpener and I watch your videos just because they are interesting and some of the stuff you say can be carried over and applied to knife sharpening.... SOME not all. Some... Now I have a black Arkansas from dans and I was wondering instead of sandpaper why not use a rust eraser. Now mid way typing it I realize that probably wouldn’t fit your dead flat priority. Do you mount the sandpaper on something? How flat are we talkin here?

[@hidude2124]

Fuck that, ignore the question it’s stupid. I’m going to watch your lapping Arkansas video. Your videos are great and your humor is great and yada nice nice job. I’m going to shut the fuck up now.👍

[@mariuszadamczyk7766]

Hello Keith! Great video again. My question is : do you believe honing on a well polished granite stone is actually plausible?

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hello Matuisz! Pike once made a barber hone out of granite - it was not popular. Basically, Granite is not a good material to make a whetstone out of.

[@mariuszadamczyk7766]

Thanks for the reply Keith. I was just wondering as I deal with granite from all over the world on a regular basis. Hence, the heart for it. There are obviously 'milder' varieties of granite and I was just thinking of giving it a honing trial but I wasn't sure as to whether it should be polished or just cut even with a evenly left surface... I may wanna endeavor just out of curiosity and sharpen an old razor so there's no remorses if failed :-)

[@mariuszadamczyk7766]

BTW this Arkansas stone seems to be a bit closer to granite just by appearances on your video. Like a harder type of stone

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Granite is igneous, and its crystalline structure and makeup are totally different from Arkansas stones. Arks are Novaculite, a cherty metamorphic form of quartz. The stone in this video is over 90% microcrystalline and cryptocrystalline quartz. Granite is macro crystalline with a max of approx 50% quartz. Those are the two main reasons why granite is a poor material for whetstones.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

As long as you’re having fun, it’s all good.

[@zackslaststand]

Hey have you by any chance tried Arkansas stones from Canada? There’s a guy on eBay selling “Canadian novaculite” I’ve only heard good things about em. I’m looking to pick up an inexpensive natural stone.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

I think you are referring to the RF Canadian Novaculite stones? I haven't yet - I almost bought one but the spec data and general info on their ebay pages are terribly inconsistent and trying to compare one stone to another was impossible. A lot of what they had written was contradictory. I know all that is/was the result of rushing to get stones posted but that still should not happen. If they stopped trying so hard to be impressive and just post stones in a simple consistent way I'd be more interested. At that time, I was only interested in thie 4 or 5 'point' stones and they didn't have any. I asked for one and they said they'd get back to me but they never did and that is enough for me to not care anymore. Plus, at the time, the prices of their offerings weren't really markedly or actually cheaper than real Arkansas stones. In a purely prudent consideration, for that amount of money I'd rather have a very flat rectangular stone without inclusions or fissures. A perfect flat rectangle 6x2" Transluscent Ark sells for about $75 and you are so not ever going to beat that stone as a finisher unless you dig deep into your pockets and maybe not even then. A comparable Canadian stone was about the same price, but it was more of a rough cut, not rectangular or flat-bottomed and its still an unknown stone to me. The same price comparison held true for the smaller cuts also. But - Back when I started looking at them, there was one stone that was pretty enough to catch my eye, it was a 3 point,. Wasn't really cheap or anything but I liked how it looked and I considered getting it. But I lost track of it and moved on.

[@zackslaststand]

I picked up a two point one just to try out. I'm not holding out too too much hope for it really but it was rather cheap. I mostly picked it up because I thought it looked rather interesting. I don't really put much faith in their grading system regardless because they're claiming that some of their novaculite has a higher density than 2.5 which as I understand although I'm probably wrong on about this that 2.5 is a max density of novaculite. I posted some of the seller's pictures here on imgur. You have a much better eye for stones than me I'm assuming so maybe you can give me a little advice? I got this one for about 40 dollars with shipping. imgur.com/a/QNIkP

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Unfortunately, I have not touched one of them, so I have no way to judge the stone.

[@marioz8132]

Hi have you ever hone on a lydite - touch stone if you have please shear your opinion.

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Yes, several of them actually. The stone is a type of Jasper, or Chalcedony, which has not proven itself to be a good razor hone. Once in a while someone gets lucky with a piece of similar stone but overall they are sub-par for use as a razor hone. The crystalline structure in Jasper, and similar rocks, is inferior for this type of work. They are possibly useful as a stone to sharpen pocket knives or something. Jaspers, Chalcedony, different types of chert of a similar breed - are able to improve inferior honing efforts in some cases, which fools some people sometimes. After extensive testing, they have proven to not be capable of advancing a well honed edge. They actually defeat and retard the edge in most cases. Good quality Arkansas stones are, by far, a much better option.

[@marioz8132]

@@KeithVJohnson1 I have heard that this stone leaves a edge like a lazer is that true?

[@KeithVJohnson1]

@@marioz8132 which stone?

[@marioz8132]

@@KeithVJohnson1 the Lydiate

[@KeithVJohnson1]

@@marioz8132 I think you didn't read my first response to your original question.

[@jasonlin8587]

what's the main difference between arks and jnats? I mean there are stupid hard jnats that even denser than black arrkansas, and things that jnat can do but arks cannot, so what's the appeal of surgical blacks?

[@KeithVJohnson1]

The main difference - Jnats are shale, predominantly a sedimentary type of stone. Arks are Novaculite, a type of silaceous chert that is notably more metamorphic. The geological differences are huge, and the differences in use are many; the list is too long to get into here. As for stone-density being a harbinger of quality - density can't really be used to compare two different types of stone - only stone within it's own category. So, an Ark with a specific gravity of 2.5 might be less desirable than an Ark with a SG of 2.75. Maybe - not definitely - that could be the case. But - a slate stone with a specific gravity of 2.8, is not going to grade against the Arks the same way that the Arks are graded against each other. In other words - a higher specific gravity is not neccessarily an indicator of quality in a global sense. As for what one stone can or can't do vs what another stone can or can't do - choosing one over another is usually a preference thing decided upon by a user; every different type of stone will sharpen different steels differently, leave different types of edges, there might be price and availability concerns, and honing styles might also factor in. There are lots of reasons why someone might want to choose one over the other or to use both. I'm in that last group - I use Arks and Jnats. I like honing on both and I like shaving with edges from both, and I also enjoy honing on and shaving off other types of stones also.

[@analogoutdoors]

Yes! Love my Engstrom!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Hi Mike! For sure, Engstroms are realllly fine razors.

[@Coach5711]

I actually started looking for an Engstrom after watching this video. Found one for next to nothing which appeared to be in really bad shape. The heel of the blade was worn down to almost nothing - a much exaggerated version of the cant that these blades seem to have in a healthy form. I honed it out and couldn't do much with the heel, but seemed to get an edge on about 3/4 of the blade. The test shave was amazing! I may go back and see if I can do anything with the heel, but with the shave that I got I don't know that I'm even going to bother.

[@michaelshults7675]

If you do purchase a 6x2 I would go to Dans whetstones. Best Arks on the market period They come dead flat!!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Everyone is going to have preferences,, but to be honest, I've never been all that impressed with Dan's. Nothing bad to say, his stones are fine. Just not all that jazzed with Dan's. I've been dealing with naturalwhetstones.com for ages; I've probably purchased about a dozen trans arks from him over the years. David has gone way out of his way to accommodate me on several occasions, and his stones are as good as anyone elses. I wish I remembered who it was that I bought my SB Ark from - that guy really went above/beyond with customer service, I'd buy again from him in a heartbeat.

[@michaelshults7675]

Keith V. Johnson Yes they are nice to deal with. I bought a couple of stones from them a hard and a soft. Its just a personal preference thing, Dans whetstones are my go to.

[@brianpayne3468]

@@KeithVJohnson1 The SB(Surgical Black). I went to the website, is this the one? (Arkansas Novaculite Black Translucent Knife Sharpener (1400 grit US / 12,000 grit Asian)). In the Arkansas stones, which stones would you get to get the keen edge, where you can do the HHT (Hanging Hair Test) from start (Bevel setting) to finish (HHT). Thank you!

[@KeithVJohnson1]

HI Brian, links to vendors cannot be posted on my channel. I don't use the HHT, so that's not something I would comment on. I don't use Arkansas stones in a progression for razors - I only use the extra fine stones to finish. Hope that helps.

[@Master...deBater]

Keith...Are you trolling Rough Rooster again? You know its not polite to troll our less gifted members of society!

[@parkersouthgate2091]

Less gifted? They both are very skilled.

[@leec1468]

How,do,tell the difference between surgical , true hard. Black, ultra fine black, the extra fine black stones are very black not gray like yours in this video

[@KeithVJohnson1]

Color means nothing with Arkansas stones. The finest stones come pink, white, gray, jet black, blue black, and so on. Some are multi-colored. Specific Gravity measurments are what seperates one type or grade from another. You can pretty much tell when lapping, cutting or honing on one too. But color is irrelevant.