What Makes A Good Tabletop Skirmish Game?

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What Makes A Good Tabletop Skirmish Game?

[@SPARTANTROOPER]

One Skirmish game that I definitely think deserves more publicity is Infinity. The rules are regularly updated, there is a free list building app, and a lot of fantastic miniatures for really interesting factions.

[@ericcreager51]

Code One definitely helped with making it less overwhelming for a new comer but Corvus Belli is a great company in general that utilizes their player base.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I love the Infinity models, and just painted up a gang of them to use in Necromunda.

[@mweaver6037]

The infinity models are nice!

[@SPARTANTROOPER]

@@tabletopskirmishgames I just wish they'd make the move to plastics for the sake of customisation. Their proxy rules are so relaxed because they only have 1-2 models that have at least 3 profiles each.

[@BB-pn2qv]

Kill Team has a split identity, it has a few things that are meant to help keep it simple for new players, but then super specific awkward things like LOS rules that crush any new player due to being so unintuitive

[@SpooKimi]

i also feel that in the playerbase a bit, i know many peeps who are like me that dropped it due to the focus on the samey specialist teams and the full squad specialists, and loving the fireteam system that has been abandoned and at the same time it is so popular as peeps love these specialist teams it also forces itself to give depth by having just to many things where it ends up being overwhelming for new players or just casual play, every operative has special rules, equipment, faction rules and stratagems, the things you gotta bring feel almost the same as normal 40k while being a skirmish game and at the other hand you have warcry which might not have as extreme depth but it's smooth and plays well, knowing your faction abilities and combos and crates depth in the game and listbuilding and does it very smoothly even the iniative system does so much for just being 1 thing and all that while it's easy to grasp and understand ^^

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Every time I've explained LOS to a new player the excitement level drops 🤣 Compare that to something like LOS in Necromunda - which is super simple - and it's much more fun to get started with.

[@BB-pn2qv]

@@tabletopskirmishgames KT LOS is… such insanity. And I love the game, but…

[@kingxerocole4616]

I agree about Kill Team's barriers to entry. Why, in the Emperor's name, did they use that shape measurement system? And why not have the # of sides of the shape match the inches (triangle = 3in, square = 4in)? Just mind-boggling.

[@raincoast_bear]

Exactly, King. 1" = circle, 2" = lozenge, 3= triangle, etc. But no we can't have anything easy...

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I thought I'd got over the shapes, but as I've been exploring more games recently, the idea is bugging me again 🤣

[@kingxerocole4616]

Malifaux has been my favorite skirmish game for about 10 years. The aesthetic, the card system, the miniatures, and the strategic focus are all what make it a winning skirmish game in my book. I also enjoy WarCry, Bushido, Marvel Crisis Protocol, and any game that somebody wants me to try out. I think the best ones have a low barrier to entry. I tried Moonstone and it was a bit convoluted. Lovely minis, though.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I haven't tried Malifaux but heard good things about it

[@raincoast_bear]

Well presented, Lee. You are spot on with all your comments. The main thing that attracts me to a ruleset is how fluid and intuitively the gameplay flows. WarCry for example is tight with a novel dice mechanic. 40k and Kill Team are sluggish and counter intuitive to me. One of GW's games sold in book stores is called Fire Team. It's simplified Kill Team on an Underworlds style hex board. It play pretty well too. But an "easy" game doesn't seem to fit GWs sales and marketing goals. If GW won't give us more accessible games, then I'll have to play something else and there are lots of good alternatives.

[@SpooKimi]

spot on with the comment, warcry flows amazinly play really well and fun, and allows for more close games with that it's less lethal killteam on the other hand is a mess, from los being overly complex, removing old compendium teams for white dwarves ones making it confusing what you can still use and what not, games being over in round 1/2 because how lethal it is i did wish for warcry there was like a simple ref sheet for like less used rules like: "can mounts move under bridges" and than just yes or no

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Thanks, Jack! Agree, the UKGE made me remember just how many skirmish games are available that are not GW and I'm pretty excited to get back to trying out new games and meeting game creators.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Another point. Competitive vs Casual/Narrative focus. A lot of the criticism of Kill Team being expressed here has to do with the system being increasingly focused on serious, competitive play. Hence the less than intuitive line-of-sight/cover rules. As we used to joke in software development, “it’s not a glitch, it’s a feature”. If you just want to play casually, there’s nothing stopping you from continuing to use the compendium teams and basic rules. I’ve encountered people who are turned off by the Warcry scenario generation system. It’s completely possible, with the random setups, to generate a scenario that’s completely impossible for one side to win. The serious/competitive player sees that as a huge fault. The casual/narrative player just laughs and either says “Let’s give it a try and see how bad it is “ or just shrugs and draws a new set of cards.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Another great point! I found with Warcry I'd often just pick the cards that worked with a narrative idea I had.

[@edwardblacklock2446]

You should check out Space Wierdos and Sword Weirdos, really fun indie games that are slimple to play, well designed with just enough complexity to keep it interesting and only cost 5 bucks each plus whatever scenery and models you already own. Also Gaslands. Always play Gaslands.

[@MrSkullhead1]

Another factor that contributes to a good skirmish game is the ease and flexibility of warband construction. Building a warband should be reasonably intuitive and (in the case of 'miniature agnostic' games) actually allow you to field any miniature in your collection. I think the latter point often gets overlooked. I've bought a number of such rulesets only to find out that the game is predicated on the idea that 'any miniature in your collection' really means 'any 40k miniature in your collection.' Flexibility of warband construction is key. The game can have the best rules in the world, but if I have to shoehorn everything into its 40k equivalent to play the game, my interest wanes. This is one of the strong points of Weekend Warriors.

[@Renigade16]

9:00 Yo! I love you shouting out Runehammer. Been watching Hank since the Drunkens and Dragons days. Im working on my own Skirmish game now and I felt like you and he have similar approaches in tackling the creatve processes.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Awesome! Hanks DnD videos are the best, love it. Have fun and all the best with your game!

[@BB-pn2qv]

Good critique too

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Thanks BB!

[@markopolo12008]

Yes great video with a lot of valid points. I love Core space great game with most of the things you mentioned and some great fan made expansions. Also Battle Systems as a company are great for supporting the community with free downloads and listening to what gamers have to say they're very approachable. You should try Five Parcecs from home too great narrative game and Ivan Sorensen the designer is a very friendly approachable guy too.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Five Parsecs is on my list, I'll definitely reach out.

[@sleepysasquatchgames]

Hey Lee! When is your zombie skirmish game coming out? Would love to get it on the table with my TWD miniatures.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I left the draft in the draw for while but now I'm back on it. Will be a few months yet. My boy and I have been playing with TWD miniatures too! Those box sets are awesome for the models and so cheap too. We've mixed them up with our Zombicide models and have loads of characters and some proper hordes now 🤣

[@mweaver6037]

The first thing I ask, when considering purchasing any new skirmish game, is "Does it have a strong campaign system?" There is a reason my friends and I regularly play Mordheim years after GW abandoned it! One-off games can be quite fun, but what keeps me coming back to a game is watching my little peeps growing stronger and tougher over a series of adventures. Well, the ones that survive, anyway...

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I'm about to start a Necromunda campaign which should be fun. We've been talking a bit about Mordheim and I wouldn't mind giving it a go. The terrain looks awesome for it.

[@mweaver6037]

@@tabletopskirmishgames Enjoy! I have never played Necromunda, but I understand that Mordheim is a close cousin of the original Necromunda.

[@ericcreager51]

I saw someone else mention Infinity and I think CodeOne more so than N4 scratched the itch and checks all the boxes before the super complicated rules. I haven’t seen anyone mention Deadzone yet though. It is by far the most fun my gaming group has had in a while. There’s a lot of randomness and controlled chaos that isn’t complicated and adds to the table banter and fun. I think both Mantic and Corvus Belli are great companies (I haven’t been a fan of GW’s business practices for years). Will definitely follow up on your page and see how your projects are coming along. Also, Shatterpoint is becoming a huge focus of this topic in America currently. Still waiting to see how it plays out once people learn to play and a couple more expansions Drop next month. Sláinte 🍻

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Good to hear about Deadzone, I was planning to buy the new box set when it came out but there was limited stock at the time.

[@Malino8835]

Bin' tinkering with my own system recently and this has definitely helped!

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

That's awesome to hear! I want to do more content like this; what do you think would be some good topics that you'd like to see?

[@ScreamingTc]

"Making it more complex by bringing out updates, and expansions, and loads more books!" Oof, shade thrown at Necromunda, me thinks. 😂 Honestly, having a rulset that scales in complexity is a huge boon, allowing newbies to dip their toes into the rules whilst keeping veterans trucking along with more nuanced tactics. Mostly though, what attracts me is the world-building and the potential within.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Haha I'm loving Necromunda at the moment, more of shot at Kill Team lol

[@michakoodziej5741]

Thank you for this great video! I am curious, what is your favourite skirmish game.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I have to say my own game, Population Z, 🤣 but as far as other peoples games go, my favourite skirmish game is hands down Moonstone by Goblin King Games. It's got everything I like from a game; great narrative, quirky characters, diverse abilities, and made by passionate creators. The models are excellent too.

[@michakoodziej5741]

@@tabletopskirmishgames thanx a lot! I will definitely check the both games out!

[@michakoodziej5741]

@@tabletopskirmishgames Hi! Both games looks awesome ruleswise! However I am more into the Si Fi setting at the moment. What are your recommendations for good Si Fi Skirmish games?

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

If you like solo games, definitely try Core Space. We are creating our own sci-fi game as we can't find one that we stick to or get excited about at the moment. Kill Team had so much potential, and can be great fun if you want a tactic and rule heavy game but trying to get any new sets or minis is a nightmare. The Kill Team starter set is great value, though, and widely available with some of my favourite minis. I've got a lot of mixed feelings about Kill Team 🤣 I've heard 5 Parsecs from home is good, but yet to play it. I'm a big fan of Bolt Action, the rules are awesome. Their sci-fi equivalent might be a good option, it's called Konflikt 47. Sorry can't be more helpful, but look out for our sci-fi came coming later on. Next in the pipeline is our fantasy game, then it's going to be the sci-fi one.

[@michakoodziej5741]

@@tabletopskirmishgames Definitely excited about your future Si Fi game! I will check the other games you have recommended. I played Kill Team once (with only basic rules) and did quite like it. However not sure, if I will like it with all rules. Thanx a lot for your suggestions and all your content!

[@benelgermosen]

I love the Batman Miniature Game. The sculps are amazing and the game is really flavorful. Knights Models does an awful job at supporting it though.

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

They contacted me to see if I'd feature it on the channel and I agreed, then they never sent it 🤣 shame because it did look cool

[@BB-pn2qv]

You’re making a new game, aren’t ya ;)

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Haha, I am back on my zombie game. I left the draft in the draw for a while but now back on it!

[@danielbr92]

Great video!

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Thanks, Daniel!

[@SpooKimi]

ngl kinda funny to see killteam with this video title, as i feel killteam does so many things wrong in good game design XD overal amazing points in the vid ^^ it will be a long comment as i love talking and discussing game design i think for a good skirmish game and just game overal is having clear rules, we are playing tabletop and not a video game. flow needs to be good and naturally. killteam 1 for example had very clear rules on los that felt natural even if it sometimes felt dumb if a tail or gun poked out of cover,the new one has this new system they had to keep explaining again how things work let's take warcry, the core game is easy to learn and remember, there are some more nuanced rules but since those are less frequent it's more okay that you have to look them up same goes for game setup, while warcry is kinda easy once you get it, a lil refsheet would have been nice (i made one myself it isn't perfect but it's been a huge help) another thing would be a good differance in casual and comp play, in killteam there is no real difference or you come up with your own missions or no tac ops. while warcry plays with the game setup, missions and twists you can still play to win but the game is more casual while there is a sepperate set of cards for "balanced" comp play ^^ this is also were your balance point comes into play in the casual warcry method the teams are still balanced but the mission and setup might not be leading to very fun and interesting games ^^ with expensions it would be great to involve everyone without having to need to buy things, new terrain and new teams/models can are amazing, but having new missions, deployments, fun other stuff can just be up for free so everyone can enjoy it and coming back fun is def the most important thing, a fun game isn't achieved by perfect mirrored games etc, it's a smooth experience and being an actual game. from the set-up and playing the game has to be smooth anything that interupts flow makes it less fun. if a game is over in round 1/2 due to how lethal a game is, it will most likley feel like a boring game where the set up felt longer than a game. the new killteam has the problem a lot imo, ive seen so many batreps that by round 2 a winner was already decided basically. while it's possible in every game to be over soon due to misplays and good/bad luck i feel it's way more frequent in killteam due to how lethal it is compared to warcry also games being lethal can make games feel more restrictive, in killteam you only get to shoot once or fight once because it's so lethal but the second activasion just feels kinda you are forced to move which gives you overall less options, it's also why killteam has the most unintuitive los system ever so models can be shot less at there are so many more aspects to discus and talk about, and in the end games can be very popular even tough if they fail most of those things because there are so many factors: community, models, brandname (marvel is gonna be more popular than indie games as peeps know it's name cuz it's everywhere so it's easier to remember than for example weekend warriors) i did wish more peeps were playing around with house rules or homebrewing systems to fit their needs, it's something the ttrpg space does really well imo and there is a lack of in the tabletop wargame space (peeps still do it from 3 player board shapes to killteam for 30k) but it's less known and less prevelent

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

Some great points there! I love watching home-brew videos for ttrpgs and I feel like trying to move in that direction a little bit on the channel. What do you think?

[@SpooKimi]

@@tabletopskirmishgames that would be great tbh ^^ Tbh I should also finish some homebrew myself 😅 I've done 1 on killteam 1 I finished and multiple attempts on the new killteam but I kept aiming to big 😅 And than the classic drop project and move on to something new especially when adhd hyperfocus wears of q.q

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

I can relate to that, it's so easy for the rules to grow 🤣 I've got 3 games pretty much written now, need to get them finished and published.

[@SpooKimi]

@@tabletopskirmishgames someday we'll get there xD

[@redgreen09]

welll i loooked at the fist two manfaters of minis the north umbens and ruble slam and yes thay had fun looking minis and some did mad like get them like the time badits and well some the women wrelers just be fore fun to get em see the nest vid

[@tabletopskirmishgames]

My favourite are the Wind in the Willows models. So well done and they come in a really nice presentation box. Would make a great gift!

[@redgreen09]

@@tabletopskirmishgames ARE trying tell ME some thing ? ok had do joke yes like to but you do a vid on em

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Okay, you opened a can of worms here sir. I’m just going to do multiple comments (as usual?)... erm.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Most important? The rules. If the game doesn’t play well, or the rules are poorly presented, no amount of pretty models, interesting settings or detailed lore will make the work. I’ll point to the first edition of AoS here. 40k might be the exception that proves the rule, but to be honest, the rules are really decent, it’s just the volume of options that make the game cumbersome.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Models? Not really generally. I’m a hobbyist but not everyone is. Plenty of people walk away from the GW games when they find out they’re supposed to build and paint the models. I’d almost bet real money that, if prepainted models were available for Kill Team, etc, you’d have more players... at least casual players.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Setting. Double edged sword. A setting is as likely to turn people off as turn them on. I’m not a fan of cyber-punk. So if you presented a cyber-punk setting for a skirmish game or rpg, I’d be turned off.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Fluff, lore, background? Probably most important for an rpg. D&D drew on reams of fantasy, horror and sword&sorcery books and stories. So that had a wealth of established lore to build on. Gygax didn’t have to tell anyone what a goblin was like.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

In the past, in the era of Avalon Hill and SPI historical board games, war games, the market was dominated by games with paper or cardboard 2D game maps and little cardboard square chits that represented the units. I’d imagine that there were 100 people playing the board game “Blitzkrieg” for every single person painting Napoleonic miniatures and recreating Waterloo on a sand table.