Tag-Team Justification Debate! | The Gospel Truth (w/Marlon Wilson)

[@orbeuniversity]

Personal Notes: Part-1: What Justifies A Person Before God? 0:00 Introduction 5:37 Opening Statement (Samuel Nesan) 15:51 Opening Statement (Jimmy Akin) 25:15 1st Rebuttal (Samuel Nesan) 29:28 2nd Rebuttal (Jimmy Akin) 32:14 Cross Examination by Samuel Nesan 48:28 Cross Examination by Jimmy Akin 1:04:05 Q & A Part-2: Justification in the Early Church. 1:27:42 Introduction 1:29:00 Opening Statement (Stephen Boyce) 1:39:28 Opening Statement (Trent Horn) 1:50:05 1st Rebuttal (Stephen Boyce) 1:55:09 2nd Rebuttal (Trent Horn) 2:00:47 Cross Examination by Stephen Boyce 2:16:19 Cross Examination by Trent Horn 2:32:32 Q & A Highlights: 54:25 1.- Do you agree that there is something that needs to happen between death and heaven in order to give us the pure righteous we need to be with God? 2.- If you acknowledge that, do you agree that Catholic teaching on Purgatory does not amount to a false gospel? 1:47:29 Just because an Early Church Father uses the phrase "faith alone", it doesn't mean that he believed in the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide. 2:10:00 What role do the Sacraments play in justification? 2:13:21 When a person is baptized and later on commits a mortal sin, why isn't there a need for this person to be re-baptized? 2:21:29 Do you pray the Lord's Prayer? 2:26:48 Was there a consensus among the Early Church that a true Christian - one that has been justified - could lose their salvation permanently, they could lose the gift of salvation? 2:28:34 Can you name any Church Father (Patristic Period) that taught that you cannot lose your salvation or was this an innovation of John Calvin?

[@JimmyAkin]

Thank you very much! I included your timecodes in the video description to create the chapters! Lemme know if you care to do the 2nd half of the debate also (i.e., Trent's part). God bless you!

[@orbeuniversity]

@@JimmyAkin You are very welcome. I am happy to help make the videos a bit better. 🙂 I will likely get a chance tomorrow to add the time-codes for the 2nd part of the debate. Thank you very much for your work. Greetings from Canada!

[@orbeuniversity]

@@JimmyAkin I finished writing the time-codes for parts 1 and 2 of the debate. This was an excellent debate. A lot of common ground was found. There is one more thing I think you might want to change. In the video description you wrote: "In this debate, I and Trent Horn...", but I think you meant to write: "... Trent Horn and I..." All the best and God Bless.

[@JimmyAkin]

@@orbeuniversity Thanks so much, and God bless you!

[@johnchrysostom330]

Sam said "Blessed Mary". First time for me to hear from a Protestant. May the Holy Spirit lead you to the fullness of truth.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

I've heard Anglicans say it. 🤷🏼‍♂️😎👍🏻

[@MajorasTime]

Sheesh, the purgatory argument from Jimmy Akin always puts Protestants in an inescapable dilemma.

[@John_Six]

Yeah, I'm not sure who the first person to admit it was, but when he got James White I couldn't believe it. Jimmy is so good at setting that argument up. The protestants might catch on though and start adjusting their answers to his questions now.

[@consecratedsoul]

Anyone got the timestamp of this?

[@fr.ThomasThereseOP]

@@consecratedsoul roughly 54:26 forward

[@SneakyEmu]

It really doesn't. Protestant theology always includes something related to the idea that people go from being imperfect to imperfect after death as Jimmy describes. If you want to call that instantaneous transformation purgatory then fine but that is a new definition of purgatory. Historically purgatory has always been understood as a process taking hundreds if not thousands of years during which time living relatives could do things like give money to the church in order to take away years of punishment during purgatory. This is what was understood as purgatory during the 1500s and that is the idea of the Protestants reject not this new definition of an instantaneous transformation. It's strange to hear Jimmy say purgatory has been taught as an instantaneous transformation because that's just not true historically

[@John_Six]

@@SneakyEmu The church doesn't teach how long a person is in purgatory because it is not a place. Purgatory is a state of being. JOHN PAUL II GENERAL AUDIENCE Wednesday 4 August 1999 _Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820)._

[@defeatingdefeaters]

Jimmy told Trent to hold his beer before the debate started. 🔥

[@user-gs4oi1fm4l]

This was so much more productive than the recent James White debate... Jimmy's interlocutors were very gracious

[@kathyweiland4732]

Jimmy you are so gifted in your explanation thank you so much for being such a wonderful apologetic

[@Chicken_of_Bristol]

This was highly enjoyable to watch. Credit to the Protestants here, Samuel specifically, I don't often feel like in debates the participants make a genuine effort to understand the other side's position.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Yeah, seems like he also approached this as a Brother in addition to being an interlocutor.

[@TheTrustingGamer]

Jimmy and Trent complemented each other nicely in this debate. Both have different tactics but it works well together. The Protestants lost this debate when Jimmy brought up purgatory and when they couldn’t provide a SINGLE Church Father that said you couldn’t lose your salvation. Well done guys!

[@pixelprincess9]

I really dig the 90's aesthetic in this debate. It feels like we're talking watching a video from 30 years ago but in HD quality.

[@IRISHBee4]

Very charitable interaction! Thank you to all involved!

[@maximopablo4295]

Thank you Jimmy and Trent. I am learning so much from both of you.

[@kimfleury]

I enjoyed this debate. I'm not familiar with many Protestant Christian apologists, but I'll be inclined to listen to these two now and then. They're quite respectful even in disagreement, which is why I enjoyed this debate.

[@Catmonks7]

Great job, Jimmy and Trent defending the Catholic faith keep up the great work God bless. I love being Catholic.🇻🇦✝️🙏🫡🤣

[@iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 05:38 *📜 Samuel begins by addressing the topic of justification, focusing on how a person is justified before God. He defines key terms like justification, faith, and works according to biblical context.* - Saving faith is a gift from God, attained through the merits of Christ and apart from works. - This faith is accompanied by genuine repentance, godly living, and participation in sacraments, demonstrating a regenerated heart. - Samuel argues that this saving faith leads to eternal life and serves as the sole basis for justification before God. 16:02 *📖 Jimmy delivers an opening statement, emphasizing the importance of understanding terms like "faith" in different biblical contexts. He discusses the Protestant view of justification by faith alone, clarifying different interpretations of "faith alone" in Scripture.* - Protestants uphold justification by grace alone through faith, emphasizing that saving faith is not devoid of good works. - The Catholic Church also affirms salvation by grace through faith, with an understanding that faith is not opposed to charity or good works. - Jimmy explains that while Scripture doesn't use the phrase "faith alone," Catholics and Protestants can agree on the substance of faith and its role in justification. 22:33 *📜 Salvation and Faith Alone* - Faith alone is not intellectual faith alone but involves trust, intellectual belief, and love. - Various biblical passages emphasize the importance of faith working through love. - Catholic and Orthodox authors historically used the "faith alone" formula but emphasized faith working through love. 25:20 *🗣️ Rebuttal and Agreement* - Samuel acknowledges agreement with Jimmy's opening statements on key theological premises. - Discussion focuses on the nature of faith, good works, and the understanding of justification. - Both parties find common ground on aspects of faith and its relationship with salvation. 32:18 *🔍 Cross-Examination and Theological Clarification* - Samuel engages in a cross-examination seeking clarity on theological points. - Discussion around the role of the Mosaic law, obedience to Christ's commands, and justification by faith. - Clarification on the process of repentance and returning to a state of justification after committing mortal sin. 45:16 *🛐 The discussion explores the concept of justification through acts like repentance, confession, and penance.* - Acts of repentance, confession, and penance are considered part of the sacrament of reconciliation. - The belief is that sincere repentance, combined with these acts, leads to God's forgiveness for mortal sins. - There's an emphasis on God's promise of grace in forgiving sins through confession. 48:43 *📖 Exploring the compatibility of Catholic views on salvation, baptismal regeneration, and the doctrine of losing salvation with Protestant perspectives.* - The discussion challenges the notion that belief in baptismal regeneration constitutes a false gospel. - Views on the possibility of losing salvation are examined across Protestant denominations and compared to Catholic teachings. - Common ground is found among various Protestant groups and the Catholic Church regarding salvation and the nature of baptism. 54:40 *🔥 Examining the concept of Purgatory in Catholic theology and its relation to Christ's redemptive work.* - Purgatory is seen as the final step of sanctification, a process that continues after death. - The purification in Purgatory is viewed as the culmination of sanctification and is not in conflict with Christ's sacrifice. - Perspectives from Protestant theologians like C.S. Lewis demonstrate a growing openness to understanding Purgatory as part of the sanctification process. 01:07:58 *📖 Understanding Faith and Works in Christian Doctrine* - The discussion explores the complexity of faith and works in Christian theology. - Faith alone is viewed as potentially misleading language and requires deeper unpacking. - Works are seen as an evidential condition rather than the means of justification. 01:10:03 *💬 Interpreting "Works" in Pauline Epistles* - Paul's usage of "works" is debated-whether it refers to Mosaic law or general good deeds. - The distinction between Mosaic works and good works is important for understanding justification. - The context of works in Paul's writings often refers specifically to actions under the Mosaic law. 01:15:55 *🔍 Examining the Interpretation of John 5:28-29* - The debate revolves around the interpretation of John 5:28-29 and its implications on salvation. - Different theological perspectives on the role of works and faith in relation to salvation are discussed. - The passage is analyzed within the broader context of John's Gospel to understand its implications. 01:22:22 *🌍 Salvation and Submission to the Roman Catholic Church* - Views diverge on whether knowledge of Catholic doctrine is necessary for salvation. - The principle of accountability based on knowledge and response to truth is emphasized. 01:29:48 *💬 Christ's Justification and Proclamation Validation* - Christ's works validated and justified his proclamation about himself, reinforcing his divine identity. 01:31:35 *📖 Abraham's Justification by Faith and Works* - Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, emphasizing faith as the basis of justification. - Works completed Abraham's faith, validating his commitment and obedience. 01:35:14 *✝️ Sacraments and Personal Sanctification* - Sacraments serve to validate and sanctify individuals before God through personal participation. - They represent personal sanctifying moments instilling grace and facilitating spiritual growth. 01:51:37 *📖 Justification and Faith* - Justification before God is a one-time act of faith but extends into a life of active faith involving various aspects. - The act of faith is not isolated but leads to sacraments, church teachings, and ongoing repentance. - Sacraments like baptism, communion, and confession are integral parts of living out an active faith. 01:55:20 *💬 Rebuttal: Early Church Views* - Discussion focuses on broader views of the early Church on justification and salvation. - Examination of the Epistle of Diognetus and its interpretations regarding imputed righteousness. - Clarification on faith, works, and the relationship between justification and salvation. 02:00:27 *⚔️ Cross Examination: Justification & Faith* - Debate delves into interpretations of biblical passages like James 2 regarding justification. - Discussion on whether works validate faith or contribute to ongoing righteousness. - Consideration of sacraments and their role in the ongoing Christian life. 02:13:34 *🛐 Discussion on the nature of baptism and faith.* - Baptism is considered a one-time sacrament due to divine law, aligning with Ephesians 4:5. - The discussion distinguishes between faith and baptism, highlighting the uniqueness of each sacrament in Christian doctrine. - Protestants are noted to face similar theological challenges regarding the nature of faith and salvation post-baptism. 02:16:21 *🔍 Questions on the concept of salvation and faith.* - Clarifications are sought on whether salvation hinges on "faith alone" or "saving faith alone" within the Protestant theological framework. - Emphasis is placed on the role of good works, charity, and participation in the local church as components of genuine faith. 02:26:37 *📜 Historical perspectives on baptism and salvation.* - Early church consensus is examined on the relationship between baptism, regeneration, and justification. - Debate revolves around the understanding of apostasy and the possibility of losing salvation post-justification. 02:35:27 *📖 Discussion on salvation and sinful practices.* - Salvation is by faith in Christ, which includes genuine repentance and acceptance. - Baptism is normative but not necessary for salvation in exceptional circumstances like a deathbed conversion. 02:36:08 *💧 Hypothetical salvation scenario and baptism.* - Genuine repentance and faith in Christ lead to salvation. - Baptism symbolizes this inner transformation but is not mandatory for salvation in exceptional cases. 02:38:55 *⛪ Interpretation of Luke 10:20 and Judas's salvation.* - Judas, despite being an Apostle, was not saved according to John 17:12. - Jesus's statement in Matthew 19:28 about the twelve sitting on thrones includes Judas but does not guarantee his salvation. 02:43:20 *🙏 Discussion on faith, works, and abiding in Christ.* - Belief in Jesus involves not only mental acceptance but also obedience and abiding in Christ. - Acts of faith, such as the Eucharist (John 6), are part of the ongoing process of salvation and discipleship. 02:45:53 *👀 Interpretation of 2 Peter 1:9 and the assurance of salvation.* - Christian discipleship involves growing in faith and virtue to confirm one's election. - Genuine Christians can lose salvation if they turn away from the faith, as indicated in 2 Peter 2.

[@pawollatounenmoun]

Wow. Thanks for putting in all the work to help us.

[@erroljacobs4555]

Great job Jimmy and Trent love from south Africa cape town 💒💒💒💒💒💒💒❤❤❤❤

[@audreymarsh5090]

As contrasted with some of Jimmy’s and Trent’s recent debate partners, I’m astounded by how polite and charitable everyone has been in this debate! Well exemplified, all you gentlemen! I love the clarity that all the debaters used, and that there was so much agreement. :)

[@DefiantQueen]

My 2 favorite Catholic Apologists❤ i knew this is gonna ba legendary

[@pop6997]

I often say I learn more from a conversation as opposed to a 'debate'. However, THIS was fantastic. The conduct of all the participants to represent eachother accurately and also to tackle what is being said rather than strawmen was admirable. Thanks so much to all involved ❤😀

[@Michael_Chater]

Sam is the most Catholic Baptist I’ve ever encountered “Blessed Mary” “I don’t believe there is salvation outside the Church” Feel free to list some more in my replies

[@John_Six]

I enjoyed that debate. Thanks Trent and Jimmy! You have both helped me learn how to defend the faith. Peace of Christ to both of you.

[@underthesine]

Job well done Jimmy! There is much to celebrate! We are sharing more common ground than realized.

[@LoneCrusader]

Trent horn and jimmy akin on the same team man. Talk about off the top ropes, it’s just not a fair game.

[@ScratchCat-im7fe]

Jimmy, Thank you. I said on another account in another video, just yesterday, why these debates always go without mentioning that the Calvinist view is a minority opinion IN THE PROTESTANT community, not the christian community. I cannot understand why this distinction isn’t brought up kore often. Im converting to Catholicism at 38 but have been raised a methodist and switched to southern baptist years back. As a Baptist the Calvinist view was totally foreign to me, its not just not believed in the religious community, or among Catholics, or EVEN among the majority of BAPTIST themselves. However, all of these debates are by Calvinist who, imo, highjack the protestant faith as if they’re the authority. It should be mentioned more than Calvinist are a minority even among BAPTIST, they are a small minority among protestants, and therefore an outlier faith among all of Christianity. Jimmy I dont know if you read my post but this has been driving me crazy watching these debates and someone finally said it. I was pulling my hair out watching Trent on Alley Beth Stucky show because he never brought this issue up. He seems to just let it be that Calvinist positions are protestant positions and its a fact that they are not.

[@Truthseekingcatholic]

This debate was done respectfully. I learned a lot from this debate.

[@Chicken_of_Bristol]

Easiest debate ever for Trent, lol

[@EJ-gx9hl]

You must not have seen the one against Pearl on pints with aquinas.

[@rosiegirl2485]

​@@EJ-gx9hl I haven't seen that yet. What I have seen of Pearl is not very impressive. Her ideology would be easy pickens for someone like Trent!

[@dr.tafazzi]

Hey Jimmy, going on could you post on the community tab of your channel something to let us know you'll be going live? Thanks, love your content!

[@JimmyAkin]

Thanks! I'll try to do that in the future. I put it out on Facebook and X, but it didn't occur to me to put it on the community tab.

[@ronciego9249]

I really learned a lot from this debate. Thank you to all the parties. God Bless!

[@ivanfrancis1765]

The Best Tag Team Ever! Hopefully you do more debates with Trent, @jimmyakin. Yall seem to have really good chemistry

[@maximopablo4295]

The “gospel truth is the Catholic Church!!! Thank you Jimmy and Trent!!!

[@john_from_eastcoast.]

Jimmy did a great job! 👍👍

[@anthonymarchetta8796]

I am very impressed with Samuel. He was very intellectually honest.

[@john_from_eastcoast.]

Not really, he makes up some weird belief about the body making us sin?? in which he changes his mind , flips flops with no and yes and no again. Look at 58:00. 1:00:00. He couldn't answer Jimmy's questions and be clear with his answers.

[@anthonymarchetta8796]

@@john_from_eastcoast. That's not intellectual dishonesty, that's what you get when you are ultimately on the wrong side of the position, but I hope he looks back on this and sees that what he thinks now is untenable.

[@john_from_eastcoast.]

​@@anthonymarchetta8796he is confused on what he believes what he said, then starts saying it's positionally then changes esperienciality then changes back, then confused again. It was like a straw man belief. So embarrassing. 😅 Jimmy got him good.

[@matthewoburke7202]

@@john_from_eastcoast. I wouldn't say it's embarrassing, but it demonstrates that he had difficulty answering the question. But I think he was very charitable throughout the debate, though I believe he lost in the end on the topic of purgatory.

[@matthewoburke7202]

@@anthonymarchetta8796 Agreed. I actually appreciate the way he engaged the arguments compared to James White, who struck me as being intellectually dishonest in many ways.

[@tkjokester]

I enjoyed every minute of that. Thank you Jimmy.

[@mariadelacarswell6704]

Listening to your debates Mr Akin. God is calling me to service him through defending the truth. I’m barely starting and this is the biggest topic I’ll investigate in my life. I know my entire life won’t be enough for me to know the faith perfectly, it’s just the Almighty who knows perfect. I’m just trying to bring a brief knowledge to all my Protestants friends and relatives around me and also do social work helping other Catholic brothers and sisters to find out a bit of that truth.

[@BeauBeckwith]

Beautiful interaction

[@tonyl3762]

Y'all did great! Actually popped up on my feed yesterday. Surprised Trent didn't bring up Clement of Rome quote that we are justified by our works and not our words. Again, I think the reality of mortal sins of omission means that certain works are necessary to maintain salvation, as Trent notes in reference to a scholar commenting on Clement of Rome.

[@MINDSETHACKS-l2g]

Thank you Jimmy Akin for sharing the Gospel truth. I am your new subscriber and I really enjoyed watching this video and your debate with James White which led me to tears because I know that God is always by your side especially to protect his sheep from the cunning wolves. Keep up the good work and may almighty God bless you always throughout your day!.

[@MacBjorn]

This was more like a teaching moment where the Catholics were teaching the Protestants. Good debate

[@csassoni1992]

Can't wait to watch this🙏

[@Vedioviswritingservice]

Great presentations. I have enjoyed it thoroughly.

[@johnchrysostom330]

True gentlemen. Seems not a debate at all

[@shannonglasford9175]

Thanks again for posting another debate video of yours. I truly appreciate it!

[@lindseysanders727]

This was a GREAT debate!

[@billprorok8115]

I got a lot of profit out of this conversation. I liked the cordial nature of the discussion too.

[@SaraHunter-l3l]

Thanks for the great debate!

[@TrulyCrispy855]

Not sure I like ‘double’ debates always feel like there isn’t enough time to flesh things out. And one of the participants on both side just sits mostly idle. But really been liking how Jimmy has approached justification in this and the White debate. I would have liked that discussion to continue. Felt like we just found the meat of the disagreement when the debate ended. But good job Trent and Jimmy!

[@ignatiusjackson235]

2:17 "You're breaking up a little bit, but let's see if it stables itself out," a classic Protestant position.

[@eskimoy]

wow i am so proud Catholic thanks..

[@56Tyskie]

What a great Tag Team

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Trent looks like he's trying to remember if he left the stove on.

[@radiantmatter1055]

Enjoyable Discussion! I was hoping to get a further clarification on penance, which was only briefly discussed. As I understand it, penance is connected with temporal punishment for our sins. How so? Since penance and confession are required to bring us back into a State of Grace, this greatly concerns me. If penance is a just payment for my temporal debts, could it be considered outside the work of Christ and therefore connects my own work with eternal salvation?

[@enshala6401]

It all comes back to how you say the Lord's Prayer. Jesus taught us to ask for forgiveness, and that this is a regular part of a thriving Christian life. We can't work our way to Heaven. Literally nowhere in the Church documents do we claim this. We offer ourselves perpetually to Christ as He offers Himself perpetually to us. This mutual offering of our hearts to each other brings us closer together to the point where nothing He asks of us is out of the question. If He asks us to do penance, we do it, but not out of a position of slavery or pride or anything else that is messed up... it is out of love. When I was a Prot, I could feel that I was missing out on this Sacrament. And now that I am Catholic, I know the Holy Spirit had placed that desire into my heart. Now I am sooo happy... I finally have the personal relationship with Jesus that I always wanted. Sacraments are a precious gift from God. I can't understand why you or anyone else would make it into some kind of burden.

[@doinkclown7020]

I’ve been extremely interested in the Didache lately - I didn’t even know it had existed until a month or so ago. I want to know your view on it Jimmy. To me, it exemplifies the reason that “sola scriptura” cannot be correct. We can’t just decide to ignore other texts from our apostles if they are not in the Bible. Everything the apostles wrote down is important! Also, I am particularly interested in the Protestants view when it describes purgatory in the first portion of it. Thanks for all that you do Jimmy! You’re saving souls with God’s Grace! God bless!

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Protestants in general hold extra-Biblical texts as low value for doctrine development. The Didache should shock the non-magisterial Protestants into thinking about things like water Baptism though.

[@matthewoburke7202]

I think the problem I see with the issue of Purgatory is there seems to be a misunderstanding on the part of Stephen and Samuel on the relationship between the body and soul. While we can make a distinction between our spiritual and corporal principals, the two do not operate independently of each other. The soul and the body are intrinsically linked and joined together, so that what happens in one can have a profound impact on the other. Therefore, having our bodies separated from our souls at the moment of our death does not result in an immediate purification of the soul. If the soul has impurities or attachments, they need to be purified in some way. There's no way around that.

[@OmoyeUduehi]

If I say, 'I have not lost any of the ribbons you gave me except the red one', does that mean that the red one was not given to me?

[@liberatewethepeople9121]

I think in time we will see Stephen (bottom right) go full “team Catholic” he is almost there already🙏🏼💕

[@TJMcCarty]

1:00:00 Hey Jimmy, In many Protestant circles such as Pentecostal and Word of Faith, there's a BIG distinction between Spirit, Soul, and Body. I think what Samuel was trying to say is that at the moment of salvation, our Spirit is completely transformed / made alive by the Holy Spirit. So our Spirit is never in need of further sanctification after initial justification. At the moment of salvation, our spirits are born again / made alive in Christ, seated with Christ in Heavenly places. So when we die, our spirits go to be with the Lord without need of further sanctification. When Christ returns, He will give us a glorified body that no longer desires to sin. This is the salvation we are waiting for, the salvation of the body, NOT of the spirit. But that would leave the Soul up to question (which we would say the soul is our mind, will, and emotions). I don't know what Simon would have said happens to the Soul at death.

[@gto2111]

Could you or someone in the comments recommend resources such as websites, videos, or books on the justification view of Catholics and the joint declaration with certain Protestant groups? Alternatively, if you could provide an in-depth lecture on the topic? Since I converted to Catholicism, I have been using arguments similar to those of Robert Sungenis.

[@JimmyAkin]

I would suggest my book The Drama of Salvation. It deals with the Joint Declaration and seeks to think with the Church (e.g., Pope Benedict). I'm afraid that I can't recommend Mr. Sungenis's thought on the matter. He clearly is in disagreement with the Magisterium.

[@dr.tafazzi]

Robert Sungenis has many problematic views on the magisterium. For instance, geocentrism... If he thinks the church doesn't allow for belief in heliocentrism then how come the observatory of the pontifical academy of sciences endorses standard scientific models? Does he think the pope pays these people knowing full well their work puts the salvation of everyone that listens to them in jeopardy...? He either has to assume the pope is clueless on the magisterium or that he's wickedly financing scandal. Neither of those views is tenable in my opinion.

[@cronmaker2]

I know Sungenis has issues with JDDJ but don't know all details, I'd say it's a good baseline doc for removing common misconceptions but still has many limitations. In addition to Akin's book, I'd suggest Christopher Malloy's book Engrafted into Christ which critiques the Joint Declaration from an RC perspective and is ecumenically fair to both sides. Same for Anthony Lane's Justification by Faith in Catholic-Protestant Dialogue from a Protestant perspective. Lane has another book on the Regensburg discussions btwn RCs and Protestants right before Trent which also illuminates differences on justification as the compromise proposed there was debated and rejected by Trent.

[@huntersmith4201]

I think when Samuel was talking about being fully justified after the death of our mortal bodies, so that we don't need Purgatory, he meant that this only applied to those who had been saved, not the damned. So, the souls of the justified are fully sanctified through grace, but their bodies still drag them toward sin, while both the soul and body of the unsaved person are full of sin. Assuming I'm right, it would be interesting to press them on this further in cross-exams: Two people are saved, but one is more sanctified. Is the difference in their soul, or only in their body? Is the goal of sanctification in this life merely to perfect an inherently flawed body, which will be dispensed with after our deaths? If the explanation for our continuing sin after initial salvation is solely rooted in the body, is it the case that the sanctified soul is weaker than the body, and therefore that the physical is greater than the spiritual?

[@CMVBrielman]

16:41 I wonder who that could be…

[@enshala6401]

IKR! 😂

[@johnchrysostom330]

Romans is talking about Mosaic law while Titus talks about works in general (work by by gentiles and Mosaic good works and Mosaic ceremonial works. The thing is that no works of any form merits INITIAL justification and this is the Catholic position. By faith and good works saves, Catholics means if one is moved by the Holy Spirit to perform a specific good work and through his free will decided not to do so, he sins. Good works saves NOT positively. I mean by avoiding a good work one sins and MAY cause him to lose his good standing before God. This is equally saying all things happen by the will of God: God does NOT positively wills evil but ALLOWS evil.

[@PIOUS_AQUINAS]

When does the cross exam statt

[@ignatiusjackson235]

3:09 "...defending the Christian faith from its early formations," another classic Protestant position.

[@JohnHenry-w5m]

It appears that believing Protestants and Catholics are really mostly aligned. Given that I myself struggle with our current Pope it is all the harder for Protestants to get comfort, that submission to the Bishops and especially the Bishop of Rome does not mean to compromise on clear teachings on Scripture. Here we Catholics must do a better job. Certainly I will not disobey God because of a heretical Bishop 🤣 Greetings: an ex-Elder of a Pentecostal church and convert to the Catholic Church 🙏🥰

[@irishandscottish1829]

And what bishops are you accusing of being heretical?

[@emilio6425]

“Faith alone is looking at Christ and trusting in Christ” But trusting what? If we have faith that Jesus Christ is God, God is love, all good, that he is Omnipotent and omniscient. We should direct all of our actions or works in accordance with his commands. Or maybe we believe that after justification we no longer have free will? Im not sure.

[@atobpe]

Regarding justification by faith alone --- Marius Victorinus (280 A.D. to 360 A.D. ) wrote that "... we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous." Chrysostom (349-407) wrote "Not that God has forbidden works but that He has *forbidden* us to be justified by works." Ambrosister (366 - 384 A.D.) wrote "...God, taking pity on our weaknesses, decreed that the human race would be saved by faith alone." Also, he wrote that "They are justified freely because they have not done anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God." Augustine (354 - 430 A.D.) wrote that "... eternal rest in which the true Sabbath is realized, and which is obtain only by faith..."

[@cronmaker2]

Word concept fallacy.

[@atobpe]

@@cronmaker2 - Interesting. I did not define any words nor did I assign any concept to them. I just quoted a few church fathers.

[@cronmaker2]

@@atobpe so to expand, someone can say faith alone without meaning Protestant concept. Pope Benedict and Aquinas used it, as did Pelagius, as did Luther. So we have to determine what a person meant by "faith". Was this intellectual belief, trust, faith formed by love? Was this in reference to initial conversion, or the ongoing life of the believer? Was this in contrast to Jewish ceremonies and not moral good works? Is this faith an instrument to grasp an extrinsic imputed righteousness or an infused virtue? And so on. As one example, you cite Augustine, but he also said "Who is he that believes not that Jesus is the Christ? He that does not so live as Christ commanded. For many say, “I believe”: but faith without works saves not. Now the work of faith is Love" and "Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works" And "The apostle himself, after saying, “By grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them"

[@atobpe]

@@cronmaker2 - you have done an excellent job of refuting something that neither I nor the Reformers believe or taught.

[@atobpe]

@@sonsofpolaris6102 Enlighten me. Give me some of the quotes that you are thinking about.

[@7Archie4]

this is Overkill facing Jimmy and Trent, I think these Protestants won't even match Catholic apologists from their neighbor the Philippines, based on what I heard on the proceedings of the debate.

[@PatrickSteil]

After the opening statements I heard basically NO difference between the definitions. Even Luther says anyone who doesn’t do good works is an unbeliever. THEN WHAT THE HECK ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT??? I would say that we are only arguing about the word ALONE. Which is better: Faith alone Faith working through Love Faith alone only confuses.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

There is never really any distinction when you did below the surface. It is the unscrupulous Protestants like that pest Kiwi who muddy the definitional waters so that he can continue slandering Catholics.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

Love it

[@huntersmith4201]

I'd be interested to see y'all press them (or other Protestants) on the trans-temporal rebuttal they give while justifying why Christians ought to ask for forgiveness consistently across the span of our lives, as in the Lord's Prayer. They could mean one of two things: 1. Christ's trans-temporal forgiveness must be really applied to us in time, because we are in time. If they assert this, they fundamentally agree with the Catholic view; though they may still disagree with the means by which this grace is applied to us (ie the sacraments). 2. Christ only enters into time to APPEAR to grant us forgiveness in time; but this is really a show for the sake of our psyches, as the forgiveness was not really contingent on our seeking it. You've certainly implied this dynamic before, but I'd like to see you really put the screws on.

[@TonyKeeh]

When asked about the Lord's prayer, the Protestant appeals to being in space and time, but our faith is also in space and time! You can't assume God's timelessness when it's convenient and discard it when it's not. Of course, from God's perspective, He knows who will be saved, but we have no way of knowing that!

[@liraco_mx]

I thought Anglicans were mostly "catholic", so weird to see one more aligned with a baptist.

[@jesushernandez-eo8fq]

This is a problem that many times catholics are too humble when other arrogant denomination don't hold back... sometimes we must intergrate our own shadow like carl jung said. Obviously in a friendly manner. I see it with my protestants relatives

[@jesushernandez-eo8fq]

@@sonsofpolaris6102 obviously catholicism is the fullness of truth. But like Jimmy has pointed several times, it is possible for other religions to be saved through no fault of their own, We leave that judgement up to God.

[@jesushernandez-eo8fq]

@@sonsofpolaris6102 this is not a dogma that only catholics will be safe... where are you getting your info from!????? Listen to what Jimmy said. The magisterium of the catholic church has never taught infallibly that only catholics are save!!

[@luisblanco4371]

Jimmy said something that implied something else that was wrong. He implied that you do not need baptism or confession for being justified (brought back to sanctifying grace) again. This implication is wrong. God does have the power to do that but he is likely not going to do something like that because it’s like going outside the salvation brought by Christ. Christ has a body and through his body and the sacraments he imparts His graces. It’s a sign of not repenting to want for God to save you outside of the means he determine for our salvation.

[@frederickanderson1860]

0:11 theological abstractions. They have nothing new to offer.

[@stevehammett2008]

The host needs to take half a Valium, LOL

[@Lya3588]

👍

[@EddyRobichaud]

Only Jesus can justify for salvation

[@EddyRobichaud]

@@sonsofpolaris6102 What I meant is that your religion doesn’t justify or assures our eternal destination, only Jesus Christ.

[@faithbasso1389]

???? So are we all justified then?? Since he died for all?

[@EddyRobichaud]

@@faithbasso1389 If you put your faith “trust” in Jesus’s sacrifice for your sin you will be justified.

[@aajaifenn]

for Augustine those who fall away from the grace they recieved were never the true children of God nor the true disciples of God nor those called unto the purpose of Christ nor were they the children of promise but instead they were the sons of peridition EVEN when they were living pious and holy lives. They when falling from the grace of regeneration and justification were not losing their salvation but only confirming their status as sons of peridition. For Augustine the sons of promise ,the true children of God never loose their salvation and can never perish .Once a true child of promise always a child of promise until the end of their lives for Augustine .The great doctor definitely believed in perseverance of all true children of God to the end of their lives .God gives this gift of perseverance only to his true children . To those christians he does not give this gift are to be considered not as true children but being no different from the mass of those heading into peridition.

[@st3rba]

It says that Trent is a Roman Catholic. I thought that he was in an eastern rite, though. Maybe in wrong.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Trent is Roman Catholic, Matt Fradd and Michael Loften are Eastern Catholic

[@ShawnCook-u4g]

It seems like in every debate Trent and Jimmy take part in with Protestants it always feels like the protestant is down a lap in the race, trying any and everything to catch up, lol

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Often because the Protestants haven't got a good understanding of Catholics doctrines. If all you got exposed growing up was caricatures and strawmen versions of Catholic faith, there's a lot to relearn and then develop argumentation.

[@1001011011010]

Geez within the first 8 minutes he tries to define "works" while the actual noun in the sentence isn't works (in general) but specifically "works of the law". This seems to be the basis of his argument, so this isn't just a small thing either. He even reads out the rest of the sentence but only highlights up to "works" and only defines up to "works". Of course works is in itself a general term, but the author was clearly not referring to the general term since the author specifies works of the law. This feels like blatantly ignoring context even within its own sentence, and it grinds my gears.

[@joshuapinkham1631]

There is no speculation in the verse where Jesus offers 12 thrones to the 12 disciples, including Judas at that time. If Jesus was able to prophetically assert the truth about Judas in John 6 “yet one of you is a devil” If eternal security is the truth why would Jesus obscure the “fact” that at that time there was truthfully predestined only 11 thrones for all but Judas? Because salvation can be lost when had at one time. Otherwise Jesus is not strictly speaking the truth in the “12 thrones” discourse. Excluding some mental gymnastics that he was referencing the 12 referring to Judas’ replacement in Acts. Answer to that would be why does Jesus address those 12 present, including Judas Directly.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Only solution is to twist scripture to fit the literally satanic doctrine of eternal security. Satan consoles himself that God has predestined him to hell, which allows him to justify all his sinful actions.

[@joshuapinkham1631]

@@alisterrebelo9013 Satan laughs at the humans who believed his lie whispered in their ear “You are predestined for heaven, you are effectually incapable of sinning. Go! Preach!” Satan takes truth - you are incapable of meriting your own salvation - and twists it into a lie - you are incapable of rejecting that salvation. It’s wicked brilliant manipulation.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

2:33:30 Samuel says Judas was not saved at one point in the past and lost his salvation. OH REALLLLLY? DID JESUS PROMISE JUDAS A THRONE IN HEAVEN OR NOT? Matthew 19:28 KJV - 28 And Jesus said unto them, *Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.*

[@chrismaxx8528]

Commenting! Lol ❤❤

[@seangallagher9580]

Here is my gratuitous comment. I'm commenting to make sure that the video is commented upon. I know this comment is not a proper comment but in making this comment, I have fulfilled my obligation to comment. .I hope you enjoyed this comment. This comment is now over and you can return to your regularly scheduled presentation of Jimmy's material.