Tai Chi Energies & Combat Applications: Cloud Hands' Full Potential in Usage

Several decades ago my teacher said to me, "just by watching someone's Cloud Hands, you can tell if their Tai Chi was any good or not." At the time, I did not know what I was supposed to be looking for in someone's Cloud Hands technique but it was pretty clear that mine was not good enough ha ha.
As the days and years passed by, I would sometimes notice my improvement and wonder "hmm. Is this what he was talking about?" What I do know is that he is quite right about the depth and importance of this technique. Because every year I notice improvements in my Cloud Hands and it never ceases to amaze me how deep this study can go, and how wonderful this journey can be as we keep discovering new levels of improvement. In your own practice you have experienced some similar growth and satisfaction, have you not?
I know my Cloud Hands is not quite there yet but you know, you can really enjoy the journey sometimes, right? And in this video I would like to share with you some of my understanding about this technique. We will continue to explore many other techniques and how together, they form the building blocks of an elegant and effective martial and spiritual practice. Enjoy this video and please share any questions or interesting experiences you have regarding it in the comments!

[@riptiz]

If you look at 2nd form Iriminage in Akido it is very similar but softer as it just relies on their grab and using posture break and very soft flow to put the opponent to the floor. The opponent feels nothing if done correctly.

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

That sounds fantastic, using that very soft flow to achieve your goal. And yes the opponent feels nothing when we engage them without clashing! And isn't that a wonderful thing to be able to do? Thank you for sharing your experience from a different tradition!

[@davidmoore2251]

Looking at Shiodaworld. He is grandson of Gozo Shioda. Some of his guests look like they are doing tai chi on some of their techniques and certainly using chi(Ki).

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

​@@davidmoore2251that's awesome! I will check it out. Thank you for the tip!

[@christoddes]

Thank you! Someone else finally sees it! One of my teachers called this intersection "chi shu". It filled the gap between chin na and shuai jiao.

[@christoddes]

Try push hands on the down-stroke to pull the opponent's guard. Then do it again as a block, then do it again as a downward strike. Try "wave hands" while C-stepping forward and back ward. Try using the upward stroke as a clearing technique. Etc

[@michaelspyrou1784]

perfect.thanks

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

Thank you! 😃🙏

[@carlito5011]

How does that work with a punch that is thrown and withdrawn?

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

Great question! It's not easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it by now ha ha. Several steps go into giving you a better chance of succeeding in using this. You know how experts at different skills, a counter hit in a boxing match, jumping on a skateboard, or cooking a meal efficiently, there's often a lot of preparation that makes the final execution look easy? This is similar. You set up the angles and distances to guide their strike along a more compatible trajectory. You interfere with their intention to strike so that they execute slower than they would otherwise. You use a combination of Kao and Peng to disrupt their balance. You apply Rollback when you can to elongate their movement. If you do all this, and their striking intent is sufficiently long and heavy, you can get them. Just like a great counter hitting boxer still can't just pull off that counter in the first round. Even Floyd Mayweather spends several rounds figuring out the opponent's movements and mindset before he really begin landing his big hits. So while you can do this to punch that are thrown and withdrawn, it takes skill and experience. But it would work. Most punches that are thrown are withdrawn right? So it's reasonable to think that techniques are designed to deal with such an inevitability, isn't it? Thanks for the comment and for giving us a chance to talk about some of the real work that goes into building useful, applicable skills!

[@hle7162]

Test his technique in a real situation!

[@Allen2saint]

@@hle7162this is a demonstration of a specific skill. If you don’t believe it’s real, then go find a skilled Tai Chi person and feel it. And there is no one “real” situation. There’s self defense, sports matches, dealing with a drunk neighbor or a relative with dementia who is temporarily out of control. You don’t just knock everyone out. You use sensitive skills like this to control people without harm unless harm is absolutely necessary.

[@U.W.Y.H.L.]

In all my experience of cloud hands, the little I’ve done in tai chi classes and many studies of videos like this; although it’s strictly or meticulously taught in conjunction with footwork opening and closing ironically I don’t recall ever seeing applications resembling the forms at all! They’re always separate as though in application you’d never be able to use it with your arms and legs waving in and out opening and closing! If this can master Chester, or anyone experienced who possibly reads this please explain why there’s seemingly no arm and leg opening and closing like in the forms ever displayed in application? 😳🤦🏻‍♂️🙄/✌️🤲☝️🤔

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

It's like how a boxer or a football player might train pushups, and jumping jacks. Do you ever do a movement in boxing or sports that looks exactly like that, but the strength and coordination developed in doing pushups will make you better prepared to box or play football. Similarly, forms sometimes are training the application, and other times are training the coordination. By coordination I mean the ability to move your body in a useful way, but not necessarily in that exact way. This is especially true of forms often called large frame. While the small frame forms may look more like how they will be applied. Does that clarify it a bit for you?

[@U.W.Y.H.L.]

@@phoenixmountaintaichi I totally understand how sometimes applications don’t resemble the forms, I was wondering if cloud hands specifically would ever apply arms and legs together like in the form! I guess not, according to your answer? Thanks for your input, and always masterful videos! ✌️🤲☝️😉

[@christoddes]

I am studying both a large frame and small frame style. The logic was completely different. I came here for answers and I found them. Things I knew intellectually that I couldn't get to work physically were fixed when you redefined the terms.

[@christoddes]

Like the 8 energies and 5 steps, find the underlying principle and stay true to that. Understand that the technique may be applied on both the "X" & "Y" axis if you stay true to the principle

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

​@@christoddesVery glad that you discovered the truth and understanding that is helpful to you. 😃🙌

[@staffordriggs]

Beautiful Love This makes my ring practice more Understandable Practical Efficient & don't have to know Wing Chung to use the Ring any style can Be applied & You can be as Hard or Soft as You want Perfect Practice Buddy Lol Sending Love to You All 🙏❤️🎨💯⛩️

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

Thank you for your comment, as always!🙏

[@taojones]

Thanks SIfu Chester for your insightful videos. In one of them you talk about 'dissolve his rsistance'. Not meeting force with force but dissolve their force. Are you doing this by allowing their force to move around your back and to the ground while softening your own posture? Or by yielding at the contact poinr to give their force the space to fall into. Thanks Roger

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

Yes you allow their force to disperse along the surface of your body. You also yield, only as much as necessary for the opponent to come in to complete connection with you. By that I mean you do not anticipate how much you yield, but simply maintain your emptiness as the opponent naturally comes to an end of their motion due to the influence of your energy state. This skill, advanced but completely learnable, is discussed here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2SZpJSZod17n5Y This Wuji state is established by maintaining the body surface awareness of Kao. It causes both you and your opponent's intention to align with the surface of your body where the energy interaction occurs. Because of this alignment their force starts to be dissolved. A passive application of Peng energy supports your posture and creates a tendency for the opponent to float, lose their root, and latch on to you. That's the true nature of causing sticking. From this foundation, you then apply the active energies to perform your application, in this case, Cloud Hands. Thanks for asking this great question Roger! Let me know how it goes as you play with this method!

[@taojones]

Great answer, because you aren't over yielding you are becoming one with their force and intent. They are moving away from there centre while you are moving into yours. Then extend into and beyond their fascia. Xuling (虚灵): Literally “the spirit or intelligence of emptiness.” The highest level of achievement in Taijiquan. An effortless state which is completely empty of personal strivings, opinions and distractions. It is a state of ultimate flexibility, able to adapt to conditions and act according to circumstances without exerting effort.

[@arnaudh4789]

Thank you very much Sifu , for this explanation of the movement of the upper limbs in taichi .

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

Thank you for your comment! It reminded me that I didn't mention too much about the footwork so let me say it here. It's easier to first get comfortable doing the technique without the footwork at first. And once you have done so you can explore the footwork possibilities. There are usually several possible directions of footwork movement even if the form tends to show just one or two. It's something you can begin to explore as the techniques feel better and better, more and more a part of your natural movement!

[@arnaudh4789]

Thank you Sifu for your comment. For the lower body, keep your back straight and your legs with your knees slightly open outwards. As for kua, it's not easy to understand?

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

​@@arnaudh4789yes and for the lower body alignment, allow it to happen by relaxation. Because the state of Song relaxation is more valuable than how exactly aligned you are.

[@Shimkrishna]

You are genius master

[@phoenixmountaintaichi]

Thank you for the high praise! 🙏