Talk-Jitsu Episode 43: Eco Hybrid Vs Eco Purist, Pranking Students & More!

[@mattisharden4943]

PE teacher from germany here: i wanted to share sth because it was super interesting for me to listen to an american/canadian perspective! Here, we actually do go to university for 5 years before having a 1.5 year kind of introduction into actual teaching and only then will we be ‚real‘ teachers. Whats interesting is that we are taught, that for skills that are centered more around problem solving (for example passing a ball in Handball or soccer) we always include a small Game at the beginning of the lesson (for example „the team who completes 10 passes without losing the ball scores a point). Afterwards, the students share their experiences how they accomplished the goal and sometimes the teacher will add some info for more complex skills. Then, we do a short bout of exercises where everybody can try different passes in peace (same as drilling a bjj technique basicslly) and after that we will play the game from the beginning again. Last, we have another game, which goes even deeper into the subject (for example: you have to receive the pass in a certain area to score) In conclusion, we also try to play as much as possible, but it is viewed as helpful to include a little input of Information and a short time of drilling! For skills like in gymnastics however, we would rather Take an approach similar to the ‚oldschool‘ bjj static approach, because there is a Single best solution of how to do a handstand for example, as there are clear criteria of how it has to look like. I found this interesting, because it fits the discussion in the Podcast quite well!

[@jaraadg]

I think Jordan hit on the head with the hybrid process. I went to a Kit Dale seminar 2 weeks ago and his approach was great. Played a bunch of games that was essentially a system to getting to the arm drag and he did some demonstration, match examples, answered a lot of questions. He also talked about talking with Greg and the Lloyd Irvin influence. Didn’t use any academia talk as well when talking about the approach.

[@mtgsalt1151]

The language is the hardest part for me.

[@MartialRoller-jd2hp]

Whats acadamia?

[@Jujibird9]

As a guitar player and I know you are a musician yourself Jordan, this reminds me of the argument that learning theory and covering songs stifles creativity and improvisation. This used to be a popular mindset that people use to fall into but I found myself and most people have found that learning theory songs and improvising would be the best way and why would you limit yourself. Seems obvious

[@talkjitsu]

Music is such a great comparison and I agree. Seems obvious to me too that there isn't only one way of effectively doing things. The eco purists can be frustrating. I don't think what they're doing is wrong, I just don't think what I'm doing is wrong either. Modern coaches arent teaching 15 step moves for hours lol.

[@TheChadavis33]

I’ve been doing the hybrid approach. A taste of the position with a sequence, showing a movements in the contexts of the position, then we do constrained sparring. I find it works great

[@davejitsu21]

Agreed, we should use the best available tool to help our students succeed. Sometimes its outling a constraint based game and sometimes its providing a possible movement solution.

[@EricHRoth]

Agree with Jordan, that it depends. For me, I don’t think of moves on my own, but when I’m shown options, I start to become more creative.

[@RafaelFerreira-yo7jl]

I am a eco guy, i teach eco at my gym, but if you wanna be good in bjj, you are gonna be good with ip or econ doesnt matter, in the end everything is bjj. its totally up to you if you wanna put effort to be good. I do eco, because ip class is too boring and i think you can play the whole game( learn faster) using eco.

[@talkjitsu]

I agree with that. It's also why I think neither side should use successful athletes from either side as an example of the method being better than the other. People will get good regardless of their circumstances if they have the drive.

[@johnnyvegas3979]

What's up boys! John G Trigon here. Good discussion. I like how you're approaching talking about this topic. I personally have to resist forming too many conclusions due to a lack of longitudinal experience ( only three months) with the approach. Constantly experiment and be aware of what you're modulating. This week, I'm partnering in threes, adding a reflection phase, and showing more examples along the way.

[@linksvexier9272]

BJJ I think is like painting, you need a framework to get you into a position where your trial-and-error learning is productive (colours and brushes) then add in specific techniques to heighten the skill level (colour mixing and laying, texture formation with brushes). All along getting good feedback is required. The printing press turbo charged learning for a reason, we don't waste time reinventing knowledge just play with it to refine it to a higher level.

[@ChaseThatCoin]

The problem with only playing games imo is you’ll get white belts spazzing out more for longer, but if you show them a few basic moves they have a little to play with while they add their own thing… speaking as a 1 yr white belt 😂

[@mtgsalt1151]

They don't spaz out more for longer.

[@mattc160]

I really enjoyed this episode. To me, this felt like the only time on this podcast that discussing the constraints lead approach was productive. One major takeaway the discussion pointed to which I think was overlooked is that the two different methods are good at doing two different things. If you want one specific reaction, the IP method works better because that’s not what the constraints lead approach is designed for. From my perspective, the constraints lead approach is all about finding your own way to solve a problem. I think the throw by example discussed is an excellent example of this difference. For the purpose of learning one specific movement (the throw by in this case), doing that movement is essential. I don’t think the constraints lead approach would do a good job of teaching a specific movement (the throw by) because that specific movement isn’t the only way of solving a problem. That’s not to say that you can’t teach a specific movement with the constraints lead approach; however, it almost certainly wouldn’t be as efficient. Of course I’m not an expert, so take that with a grain of salt.

[@talkjitsu]

I agree with that. It's also why I think eco is so good when things are very variable. Like grip fighting from standing, guard, guard passing etc. But when you get to less variable positions, I don't think you need to, or even have the ability to be overly creative. The movement solutions are already found and learning best practices won't harm self organization. I think it'll do the opposite and speed up the process.

[@mattc160]

@talkjitsu I agree for the most part. I do think there is one thing worth considering when it comes to using eco in these less variable positions. I teach math as a graduate TA and have tutored math and physics for many years before this. When working with students, we are taught that it is often better to guide students to a solution that they come up with by using leading questions. The reason we do this is because people tend to have an easier time understanding/remembering solutions and methods they come up with themselves as opposed to answers obtained by methods which are presented to them as correct (this idea is often referred to as active learning in my academic circle). I think you can make a similar argument for using eco even in these less variable situations. For sake of argument, suppose that there is an optimal way of preforming a task (it’s really not important, so it’s best not to open that can of worms). If a student were to figure out this method on their own via constraints led games, they would, in theory, have a better understanding of why that solution works and how to apply it. The trade off for this potential benefit is twofold: 1) students might not reach this optimal solution 2) it would likely take a significantly longer time for students to figure out this optimal solution than if it were presented to them directly. Problem 1 can be fixed by making more restrictive constraints or changing the task focus, so the real trade off comes from problem 2. All that is to say that there is benefit to finding a solution on your own, but that benefit may or may not be worth the extra time it takes to find and retain that solution.

[@vwgolf1991]

Eco learning clearly has benefits once you understand how to go through the technique, get an understanding of the movement, gradually come to grasp the underlying principles, and then execute live, but I can't imagine learning by being expected to figure things independent of numbered, hierarchical lists that go step by step through a given technique. Eco learning is also really hard on the body. Yes, games and sparring is the fun part, but it's also the body destroying energy sucking part, and at 49 years old, I can't spar, even in "constraint based games" every day. Sometimes I can just drill, and do maybe 3 rounds of positional sparring or games at the end. I've heard many proponents talk about how great it is bcs you skip past the boring stuff and get straight to training, but they're somewhere between 20 and 35. I need a 20 minute warm up before the warm up before I come into any contact with another human. Eco just seems like a way for young, deeply committed athletes to get more rounds in. Eco also assumes that most of us, perhaps all of us, are physical problem solvers, in that we have both the physical and cognitive bandwidth and ability to solve problems independent of direct instruction. I'm an idiot. Really, I'm not very athletically gifted, and with any movement based activity, I cannot learn without direct, step by step instruction, then zero to low resistance aka drilling, then repeated attempts in live sparring, usually a phase replete with failure.

[@madebyape]

Are you certain that you are actually learning anything then? From your comment it sounds as though you need an eco approach and that the IP method isn’t working for you. 😬

[@vwgolf1991]

@@madebyape Well I somehow made it to blackbelt with a mostly traditional method, and have done well in comps back when my body still worked as expected. I think of eco as a training tool within a more varied curriculum that still includes technique and passive drilling, but not the entire learning process, or even the majority of it. I'm still unsure how eco teaches actual techniques, and not just micro-skills or positional concepts. How do you learn an arm bar when you're just playing severely constrained games, but never putting everything together as a set sequence?

[@carlos_carvalho_5ejiujitsu1983]

There are a few misconceptions presented here about Ecological Dynamics. It's true that people are going teach the way they want, specially on theses days where we get knowledge for free. People can mix things whatever way they want. But in the end....there's is no such a thing as "free lunch", and our perception and action will make a difference about whatever we understand about the things we say and the things we do. It's always easier doing what is more convenient for us, but not exactly for others....

[@garlandbrent7967]

So, when are we just going to get it over with and change the name to the Talk-Eco podcast?

[@talkjitsu]

Haha well it's all that's been on my mind lately. Felt it was time to revisit the topic now they I have more knowledge to better make my arguments 🙂

[@garlandbrent7967]

@@talkjitsu I am just ribbing you guys. It’s a topic that needs to be discussed and we all benefit from the lessons learned.

[@TheMartialWay]

Loved this episode and for me the greatest thing coming out of this is that coaches are actually talking, discussing and experimenting. I really love the different perspectives. For a very long time there was only one way. Like Bruce Lee was known for believing, the “classical mess” of traditional martial arts are a hindrance to personal growth.

[@talkjitsu]

Thanks man! I just recently heard about Bruce Lee critisizing traditional martial arts. Interesting stuff, and I'm going to dive deeper into his perspective on training.

[@TheMartialWay]

@@talkjitsu He was ahead of his time for sure. Bruce Lee criticized traditional martial arts for their rigidity and lack of adaptability, which he believed limited effectiveness in real combat. He argued that many classical techniques were impractical and emphasized the over-reliance on tradition at the expense of innovation and personal expression. He advocated for realistic training with "resistance", promoting a fluid approach that adapts to each situation, rather than being confined to fixed techniques. That we should play and explore. Sound familiar?

[@talkjitsu]

He's not wrong! Although I don't think learning effective movement solutions takes away any room for creativity. Definitely we shouldn't be dead repping endlessly though. Gyms still doing that are stuck in the past 🤮

[@TheMartialWay]

@@talkjitsu 100%! And they know it now, and are terrified. So look out. Hence why so many are angry.

[@Wubss]

I think giving two blackbelts white belts but they both think the other is a real whitebelt would be hilarious

[@techniquejiujitsu8832]

There is good use of CLA and poor use of CLA posing a “hybrid”. The lack of understanding here is staggering.

[@talkjitsu]

You're welcome to come on the pod and "expose" my staggering lack of understanding. I'm up for debate.

[@Lifecounselor710]

10:25 I think this is interesting in my gym we have huge size variance so the big guys have to update and the small guys have to adapt. It’s like a gym of outliers. You either under 5’6” and under or over 6’2” at our gym lol

[@talkjitsu]

That seems to often be the case for some weird reason lol. Everytime I visit a new gym it's all huge guys or tiny guys.

[@madebyape]

What is a hybrid method of CLA? If you’re showing movement solutions then it can’t be CLA, so it must be something else. I’m not sure hybrid works as a name because it goes against the principles of the framework.

[@talkjitsu]

I only used the term hybrid due to lack of a better term. It's like calling a traditional class an IP class. If you beleive in ED, a traditional class cannot be IP. I don't mean hybrid of CLA. Sometimes we'll do CLA and then I might show a movement solution that works, after. Or I'll show something to enter a position for CLA to start. A rolling back attack into a CLA game for the truck.

[@madebyape]

however do you think that by giving movement solutions people will just copy those specific movements and not figure out their own?

[@talkjitsu]

I don't think there's anything wrong with copying other peoples movement solutions. That's how the sport has evolved to where it is now imo. The spread of information on how other people do things.

[@cb4354]

Live work and the ECO approach is the WAY to go if you want to hit your personal skill ceiling. Static drilling without resistance is terrible and wont make you peak ever. Drop the EGO and go live train 100% of the time. If there's a big skill gap with your training partner then put heavy constraints on yourself.

[@talkjitsu]

That's certainly one way of doing it!

[@sirpibble]

My intuition tells me this You look at a baby and they learn how to walk and talk by trying and failing, and babbling You dont need to teach them, they figure it out on their own iteratively But also, they copy things they're seeing Children will mimic adults, so theres obviously value in setting some examples for novices

[@paulhart1056]

Week after week… eco training vs whatever. Too much for me.

[@talkjitsu]

All we can do is talk about what's on our minds. Can't please everyone 🤷

[@combatlearning]

When I criticize the traditional approach, I'm chiefly criticizing the near-uniform methodology I experienced across Alliance (Lucas Lepri's program, heard directly from Gurgel on how he designed Alliance's program), Gracie University, Gracie Barra, Team Gordo, and Team Traven. Are you willing to admit that elite teams who produce massive amounts of champions are the worst examples of the "traditional" approach?

[@talkjitsu]

Even a "traditional" gym can yield great athletes despite their methods. If a "traditional gym" refers to a gym that wastes time on pointless warms ups and teaches 15 steps techniques for an hour then goes straight to rolling, then I'm happy to criticize with you. I've experienced it as well. A non "eco gym" doesn't necessarily mean that gym is traditional. But the eco crowd acts like anyone who isn't teaching through the lense of ED, is traditional, which is not the case. There are many modern gyms that spend a great deal of time live training, playing games, positional sparring, etc. Yet still teach techniques statically.

[@combatlearning]

@@talkjitsu traditional gyms produce elite athletes compared to what alternative?

[@talkjitsu]

I already explained, no? Non traditional. Which could mean eco, or it could mean a gym a "modern gyms that spends a great deal of time live training, playing games, positional sparring, etc. Yet still teach techniques statically."

[@combatlearning]

​@@talkjitsu You didn't. What other nontraditional approaches? Nobody but two or three people even did eco until a year ago. The comparison doesn't even make sense.

[@talkjitsu]

"But the eco crowd acts like anyone who isn't teaching through the lens of ED, is traditional, which is not the case." "If a "traditional gym" refers to a gym that wastes time on pointless warms ups and teaches 15 steps techniques for an hour then goes straight to rolling, then I'm happy to criticize with you." Are you not even reading what I'm writing? I know many who teach through a reverse class room approach for example. That's non traditional. It's also not CLA.

[@goku-pops7918]

Jordan gives the best arguments Ive heard so far against a pure ecological approach

[@talkjitsu]

Thank you! I've been learning so much. For two reasons, 1. to see if I am wrong 2. To better argue my point. It's not that I think pure eco is bad, it's that I think non-pure eco is also not bad.

[@goku-pops7918]

@@talkjitsu yes it says alot about you that you are open to challenging your views. My coach is very old school, I want him to consider eco.cant see it going anywhere