Talking with Ben Shapiro about Pope Francis and Human Goodness

In this episode Trent sits down with Ben Shapiro and discusses whether human beings are born "good" or "bad."
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Timestamps:
00:00 UPDATE
00:40 “Fundamentally good” and Sin
2:55 Catholic Teaching on Sin/ Good and Evil
5:30 Good people, bad society? Bad people, good society?
8:00 Are all problems, society problems?

[@TheCounselofTrent]

A Note About the Editing: Our new editor Thomas is hard at work on the new studio so I quickly edited this episode to take something off his plate. Please don't compare this to all the great work he has been doing so far or think he "phoned it in"!

[@poetmaggie1]

????

[@joshuaslusher3721]

The editing was just fine! I think in the part of the discussion that focused on societal structures and sin there was something lacking. We should reiterate that while it is damnable to say that it is only evil structures that make us evil, if we transform and transfigure our societal structures into Kingdom society, it will make it that much easier for us to flourish and choose the uphill path as you put it so beautifully. This often comes through in the Catechism and the Compendium on Social Doctrine. Blessings!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Pope Francis is absolutely correct, the heart is fundamentally good! 9 out of 10 people, perhaps 10 out of 10 people who would see a house on fire and someone hanging out the window seeking help,would seek to help in some way! Pope Francis affirms no good can be done apart from God. Yet, even an Atheist would want to help the person in the house fire in some manner, directly or indirectly, aa we have that Divine inate Infusion to help those in need. Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@joshuaslusher3721]

@@matthewbroderick6287 Amen brother!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@@joshuaslusher3721 God's grace and peace to you always!!

[@catholicfemininity2126]

Before I reverted I was a hardcore conservative who loved Ben Shapiro 'owning' the modernists marxist etc... but as I became more Catholic I realized that I need to put Jesus and my faith and church over politics. I grew distant from him even more with the drama of him and Candace. I pray that Shapiro will get a chance to know Jesus' awesome mercy and love.

[@IsaiahINRI]

Same. I was going into political science for college. But as I delved deeper into my faith I realized that politics is just a stumbling block at best, and a place Christians shouldn't even be at worst.

[@wickedproductions3215]

Fr

[@susanegittins6258]

Owens is a provocative fraud. She has no clue and no true knowledge of Catholicism. She's using it as a prop.

[@user-gc6wd7dm4w]

Listen, as an Orthodox Jew, Shapiro takes the Talmud as authoritative. Guess what it says about Jesus.

[@FleurPillager]

The pope is wrong. Try reading the gospels and stop listening to men in robes on tv.

[@marinanguish9928]

It's nice that Shapiro now invites you on whenever Pope Francis does anything controversial now.

[@cairoayrescosta6798]

its like Shapiro goes now to Trent to really understand what the Pope is saying hahaha

[@redcatofdeath]

So at least once a week, I guess...

[@johngillingham5006]

This pope and popes of the past are fallible. the #1 reason for leaving RC to become EO

[@bradswanson7919]

Trent will meet with somebody who believes our Lord is a liar but not with Nick Fuentes? Ridiculous.

[@gg-sr9lq]

@@redcatofdeathPope has been on it lately, fair play to him

[@HumanDignity10]

I appreciate how Ben is open to dialogue with Catholics regularly, and I appreciate Trent for explaining our faith so well.

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

Same!

[@KingPoseidon02]

Ben is very respectful to Catholics.

[@johngillingham5006]

Ben just wants the Christian right to support Israel.

[@HumanDignity10]

@@johngillingham5006 I don't get that impression. He has spoken and written about how he thinks society is better when people have faith and go the church. Due to his religion, he is not allowed to evangelize or proselytize, but he also isn't afraid to discuss or debate his religious beliefs, and he also has a high respect for the 1st amendment and often provides a platform for differing views.

[@Saiyan585]

Part of it is because of his close relationship with Michael Knowles.

[@Crisofora_]

Correct translation (cause translation isn't transliteration): "I see heroic mothers, heroic fathers. They are fundamentally good". Now, notice in Latin America we tend to use "fundamentally" almost like in English you guys use "literally". The translation of intent would be "they are doing their job in good will." That's how we use the word "fundamentally". But yes, he did say "the word". I've noticed many confusions around him have to do with his Latin American Spanish, plus the changes in his expression being from Argentina, which is the only country that has an entirely different Spanish from the rest of Spanish-speaking countries. So, yeah. Anyways, good take. This was a good chance to discuss odd postures in the Church, regardless.

[@Jerome616]

Thank you so much for the translation!!!

[@ProductosMLRTV]

You are correct. The Pope speaks Rioplatense Castilian, which is a particular dialect spoken in a specific region. Rioplatense Castilian has words, expressions and sounds that are very different from the Spanish spoken anywhere else. In addition, the Pope is porteño, which is even more niche - people from Buenos Aires can pinpoint which neighborhood you grew up in by the way you speak. In Rioplatense Castilian the way "fundamentalmente" is colloquially used has a meaning more closely related to "for the most part" than to "inherently", "intrinsically", or “materially”. For example, if you say in Rioplatense Castilian that John Doe is “fundamentalmente” good, you are NOT saying that John is a good person. You are saying that John is someone who, overall, is well-intended and acts rightly. In fact, if someone tells you they don’t like John because he punched them and you respond that he is “fundamentalmente” a good person, you are not disputing the punch, just conveying that it might have been out of character for John.

[@Jerome616]

@@ProductosMLRTV the internet is amazing.

[@erikw3105]

Thank you for this!

[@edwardyates8800]

Do you think he says 'son'? I definitely hear 'somos' - hence the given translantion we are fundamentally good. He swallows the final s a bit, but that is quite common in Latin American Spanish.

[@hobbywright8495]

“Never confuse the person formed in the image of God with the evil that is in him; because evil is but a chance misfortune, an illness, a devilish reverie. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement.” St John of Kronstadt

[@tonyl3762]

The context of the interview question was human behavior, not human dignity. So in context, what the pope said was still problematic, if not completely incorrect. Evil is not chance but choice.

[@ponti5882]

@@tonyl3762what is incorrect is your conclusion about the context of the question. There isn’t anything contextually about the question “what gives you hope” that suggests that Pope Francis’ answer on human beings needs to be specific to human behavior or human dignity, particularly since these things are closely related. And even if you use mental gymnastics to determine there was this arbitrary restriction, his answer encompasses both human behavior and dignity simultaneously. So it wouldn’t be “problematic” for *that* reason since different parts of his response would be qualified and applied differently. In that case, he yielded more than was necessary but there isn’t anything about what he said that would remotely imply that people work evil “by chance.”

[@HB_IE52829]

@@ponti5882 Hallo, I would not say so. If you follow that further, then the hope the Pope has can never be in the "good heart" or the "image of God", but God Himself. Thats the core of Christianity. By Christ alone we are saved, by grace alone. Nothing in your heart or mine could ever give hope. Hope for what and how and why? Everything we are and do is by nature a falling away from God. You can not add or remove from the absolute truth and still have truth. Thats the whole idea of "reborn" and "denying yourself", because in yourself nothing is good because if it is not His word, then not His will, then not Him who is THE truth. Thats the entire doctrine of Gods Glory, that is that men with free will understand that everything they do and want and desire is wrong and that is by a free will their choice to die of themselves and be reborn in Christ and step by step (from glory to glory 2Cor3:18) deny themselves for God to dwell. There is no hope in me or you, nor in our hearts or our own faith or love. Its all a gift from God and all the epistle are about exactly that. What the Pope says makes no sense and is actually quite dangerous. The hope can only be our blessed hope and that is Jesus Christ. Thats the core of Christianity. Its the man on the middle cross! Its Him and Him alone. not you, not me. Every "I" is pure pride and the downfall of men in the first place. God bless you!

[@tonyl3762]

@@ponti5882 Did you watch the whole thing? She asked that question after asking him about/discussing with him various ways human beings are doing things wrong. There is context behind the context if you watch the whole thing. It's not prudent or accurate to merely say the human heart or fundamental human goodness gives one hope. God gives hope. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9)."For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander" (Mt 15:19). Moreover, there is the context of his statements (if not teachings) throughout his pontificate that de-emphasizes the need for true repentance that gives force/coherence to the problematic interpretation. He likes to think of hell as empty, and now we know why. Also why he thinks life sentences are just as immoral as the death penalty, as a matter of principle. You didn't pay attention to the original commenter supposedly quoting St John of Kronstadt (never head of him) saying "evil is but a chance misfortune." Doesn't sound like a saintly/orthodox thing to say. THAT is what the second part of my comment referred to, not the pope.

[@tonyl3762]

@@ponti5882 Did you watch the whole interview up to that question? The context was clearly all the bad things human beings supposedly do today. People act contrary to their dignity all the time; that's what sin is. There is also the context of his statements throughout his pontificate, de-emphasizing the need for true repentance. Even in the interview, he said all are welcome without mentioning any need for repentance. He basically said any scandalous person was welcome and that "we can figure out how to handle [the scandal] once they are in." It's not prudent or accurate to say the human heart or the fundamental goodness of people gives hope. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander" (Mt 15:19).

[@LorenzoMelchionda-lp2cu]

The Pope was just trying to be positive and uplifting, nothing bad in that, indeed good. He was asked whether He was optimistic about the future in spite of all the horrible things that happen and he said he was because notwithstanding all evil around there are still a lot of good people.

[@AllforOne_OneforAll1689]

He was being false teacher

[@christina60228]

He was saying humans want to do good, and there are good people in the Bible Noa, Joseph, Job are all said to be good. He’s just saying most people want to do good so he’s optimistic about the future of humanity

[@AllforOne_OneforAll1689]

@@christina60228 But that's not true and not what Bible clearly says about man. Even Jesus says there is no one good but One, that is God!

[@user-gc6wd7dm4w]

Christians need to ignore Sharpiro's distractions from the elephant in the synagogue. As an Orthodox Jew, Shapiro takes the Talmud as authoritative. Guess what it says about Jesus.

[@Mashfan6507]

So great to see Trent on a large platform like Ben Shapiro’s show spreading the truth about Catholicism. God bless your work!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I think he might have been on a few times now.

[@Mashfan6507]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 yeah, you’re right, but still it’s great to see! I’d like to see other CA apologists on Ben and other shows on DW

[@petermclaren4933]

Trent, your work is invaluable. What a powerful voice you are for these times. Much gratitude.

[@katharinecampbell2524]

Please debate Ben Shapiro on literally anything. You are both amazing debaters so I want to see you fight. 😂

[@fatimatriumphs]

“For every creature of God is good” 1 Timothy 4:4 We are created fundamentally good. Original sin stains and is a privation, not a fundamental corruption (in the strict sense) of nature.

[@Migler1]

Even if that were the case, that passage about food is not equal to human nature.

[@fatimatriumphs]

@@Migler1 I quoted a verse. The "passage" (1-5) is about false asceticism; read the whole passage and you will know it's not solely talking about "food".

[@tonyl3762]

The context of the interview question was human behavior, not human dignity. So in context, what the pope said was still problematic, if not completely incorrect.

[@fatimatriumphs]

@@tonyl3762 Did the Pope say the heart is morally good? Or, did he say that the heart was "fundamentally" good? He is speaking about the ontological dignity/good nature of the human person that can never be lost.

[@tonyl3762]

@@fatimatriumphs Did you watch the whole interview up to that question? The context was clearly all the bad things human beings supposedly do today. There is also the context of his statements throughout his pontificate, de-emphasizing the need for true repentance. Even in the interview, he said all are welcome without mentioning any need for repentance. He basically said any scandalous person was welcome and that "we can figure out how to handle [the scandal] once they are in." It's not prudent or accurate to say the human heart or the fundamental goodness of people gives hope. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander" (Mt 15:19).

[@robolvey2227]

Thank you for faithfully taking the Gospel message out to the world!

[@lottidd6037]

Great episode, Trent. Looking forward for the next Ben S. and Trent H. podcast. Stay blessed.

[@user-tz8el7tk7z]

Trent we need you to regularly appear on Knowles’ show

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Trent and Knowles would be great together. Have they interviewed before? I know both were on the Whatever Podcast, but can't remember if it was together. That's different though.

[@user-tz8el7tk7z]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 they have not

[@jameswheelock1799]

2 brilliant hosts talking to one another. Both of you are my favorites.

[@_Cortney-]

Thank you for responding to this on behalf of all of us!

[@florenciamaidana7270]

He said that we all are fundamentally good, we may be sinners but the hearts are good. I listened the spanish version of the interview.

[@johndeighan2495]

Hmm. The Bible says "the heart is devious above all other things and desperately wicked". It sounds like (yet again) a questionable turn of phrase from the Holy Father.

[@jwatson181]

​@@johndeighan2495he is just a confused old man.

[@kroth3049]

@@johndeighan2495 be careful. Paul, Peter, and John each use different terms for human anthropology. So, you will never be correct if you just pull random quotes from the Bible without context. What anthropology is Pope Francis using in the term Heart? Jesus, who is fully human and fully divine, has the devotion of His Sacred Heart. Either you are correct, and Jesus is desperately wicked, or there is a Biblical way in human anthropology to understand the heart as good.

[@seanpermann5570]

The heart is most decietful. Jesus even said there is no one good but God. can you Define what good means to God?

[@tabandken8562]

​@@johndeighan2495Jesus (God) said, "be perfect as your heavenly Father in heaven is perfect" He wouldn't say it if it were impossible. Total Depravity makes Jesus's command impossible.

[@pop6997]

Excellent Trent. Thankyou 😊

[@TN-bi9qf]

So glad you’re Catholic, Trent!! You’re a gift to us! Great job!!

[@HumanDignity10]

I'm glad you wrote this because I've often wondered if a lot what Pope Francis says gets misunderstood because of the language difference, plus we also have the media who often take things out of context.

[@billprorok8115]

How profound and simple!

[@nzenkwe9268]

Very beautiful dialogos! These two guys!

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video.

[@abil4127]

Thanks for posting i learn a lot from you, and i teach what i learn to my children.

[@conikutch]

ur great Trent…Thank u

[@JoseAntonioSanchezr]

I speak Spanish. The Pope never said in this interview that same-sex unions went against natural law. He said that "the unions are not to be blessed but all individuals." There was no mistranslation.

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

Then that priest in Chicago violated that when he Blessed two lesbians with words that were very very similar to wedding vow renewal. he even blessed them making the sign of the cross!!! that should’ve gotten him removed immediately from his position as pastor.

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

Thank you for this. Ben had a really good analysis in the initial episode after the interview, but this was really helpful for balancing the meaning of what was said and clarifying the topic. Very helpful for me.

[@Matthew.R-Collins]

Great video!

[@blakejohnson1264]

Great job Trent

[@EricaTally]

It's unfortunate that Gnosticism still runs rampant amongst Christian circles to this day.

[@TruLuan]

Same with Arianism. Look at all the pseudo-christian groups that came about the 1800s.

[@keres993]

There really are no new heresies.

[@kinsmarts2217]

Most protestants believe in nestorianism essentially, and judaism today is gnostic thanks to the kabbalah.

[@brendamyc3173]

God created everything and called it good. The fall into sin wounded our goodness but grace and right living helps us restore it.

[@anthonyburke2353]

@EricaTally Many Gnostics and heretical groups, since the beginnings of the Church, considered themselves Christians. This is why the Apostles called for the Council at Jerusalem, spearheaded by Peter, to determine if following Jewish customs is required of a Christian. Since then the Church has called councils that have been presided over by Peter's successor to define what Christians are required to believe.

[@Galaxygacha-ir5ko]

Hi Trent. I really feel for the matter at hand, and really believe we are making more than what it actually is. I'm from the African Continent. The concept of Ubuntu existed for many centuries prior to colonisation. That belief system is considerate, loving, compassionate, and possess all the elements of Godliness. Who and what informed my ancestors to have such a great compassionate philosophy? I tend to believe that its because we are created inn the image and likeness of God, thereby implying that our nature is fundamentally good. Incidentally, it doesn't doesn't nullify the fact that we're inherently sinful..

[@johndeighan2495]

Exactly. The natural law is written on the human heart. We don't need Special Revelation to know right from wrong and prefer good to evil. This ties in with patristic teaching concerning the "semina verbi" - the seeds of the Word scattered through every culture and people. And yes, ultimately with Gen 1:27

[@Galaxygacha-ir5ko]

@@johndeighan2495 Thanks for the affirmation, indeed. Greatly appreciated.

[@S7ARK_]

There are 8 billion people on this planet, and only a small fraction of us desire war (evil). Humans are fundamentally good, and the Pope, as usual, is correct. No matter how you try to explain it, this is a fact. As a Catholic, I believe this goodness is thanks to God’s grace and the Church’s prayers for a better world.

[@wshurricanes]

Read Jeremiah 17:9, read Roman’s 3:9-20. No one is good. We are all wicked on our own.

[@461weavile]

I'm guessing it was a difficult translation and the word "fundamental" was simply a misunderstanding.

[@TimSpangler-rd6vs]

War is the only thing "evil"? Then why did Jesus call his Disciples "evil"? Did they start a war? Invade Syria perhaps?

[@jd3jefferson556]

To say human beings are fundamentally evil would be an offense against God. So yes, the Pope is right on this one. I can't believe what become controversial nowadays

[@johndeighan2495]

@@jd3jefferson556 I think the issue is with saying "the hearts are good". There's no issue with saying people are fundamentally good. But saying "the hearts are good" is unfortunate, IMO. Scripture sees the heart as the wellspring of our desires, thoughts and actions. To say the heart is "good" is certainly not the best representation of what Scripture, or what Jesus himself, teaches. I'm not saying it's a flat-out denial of that teaching, but it is a regrettable turn of phrase.

[@lostcharge]

Thanks so much for this! I saw so much blowback for this and was not sure what to think, though I was tending to agree with Pope Francis. I appreciate your qualifications and explanations :)

[@tonyl3762]

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander" (Mt 15:19)

[@MastaKeahi]

Please interview Seamus Coughlin !

[@adamgrey268]

Good job.

[@shell..47]

Loved it!!

[@TheCounselofTrent]

Thank you! -Vanessa

[@GratiaPrima_]

I got in trouble (ha ha) with Allie Beth Stuckey for pointing out that Total Depravity was painting 1. How she views certain scripture passages and 2. What the Pope said here. I, for one, can’t believe the Pope isn’t a Calvinist!! Who knew?!

[@brianstacey2679]

It's hard to have quality discussions about complex theology with people like Ben Shapiro. He is a secular political commentator who breaks things down into soundbites and gives extreme reactions to said soundbites for the basis of clicks. To suggest that Pope Francis denies the existence of sin is absurd and borderline deliberately deceitful. As Trent pointed out, Ben purposely ignored the prior question because it went against his point here. That being said, interviews with journalists are not the Holy Father's strongest quality. His writings are much more concise (except for his environmental views, but we all have our absurdities).

[@amu7379]

Over here in Asia, this is actually an age-old debate in Confucianism between the thinkers Mencius and Xunzi. The former believed that people were born good while the latter believed that people were born bad. Xunzi's students abandoned Confucianism and became Legalists that instituted very harsh tyrannical rule in ancient China, so the Chinese elites have been very suspicious of Xunzi's ideas under these historical circumstances and Mencius has kind of been treated as "orthodoxy" in Confucianism. Personally, I find that a lot of people misunderstand Xunzi and mistakenly identify him with Legalism when he's an unabashed Confucian. That being said, as a Catholic I do think that Christianity provides the best balance between these two views by saying that while our good nature is defaced by original sin, we can dare to hope to be saved thanks to sacrifice of the figure of Jesus Christ if we freely choose to accept this grace.

[@sebwoz8766]

That was a very good back and forth with Ben.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

Thanks for watching! -Vanessa

[@KW-mz4pn]

Hmm to say that our environment has no effect on sin and our nature…I struggle with. I will look further into the teaching of the one true, apostolic faith! Thanks guys!

[@ZachFish-]

Of course it does, but if we had a near perfect society, we would still tend toward sin.

[@billyg898]

It's not to say that it doesn't have an effect, but that it only has such a effect because of our concupiscence. If our intellect, will, emotions and desires were all working in perfect unity, then any environmental factor that may tempt us to sin would be rightly recognized as sin, our emotions would compel us to avoid it, our desire toward truth and goodness would completely overwhelm any desire toward the temptation, and, as a result, our will would be pulled away from acting on the temptation. But because these things are not in perfect unity, due to our fallen state, environmental factors do impact us. But, even if those environmental factors were eliminated, we would still have this concupiscence and be drawn to temptation. This is why, even if we were able to coincidentally establish some environmental utopia on earth, it wouldn't last long. Eventually, we will ruin it.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

I never said environments and structures have no effect on sin. I specifically said slavery was a structural sin. I rejected the view that sin can be reduced to sinful structures or policies alone.

[@supernerd8067]

To add to similar statements, we once lived in a utopia, Eden. The sins of our first parents, Adam and Eve, while they were still in Paradise led to humanity being ousted from it.

[@drjanitor3747]

@@TheCounselofTrentTrent isn’t even Catholic. He denies the necessity of the Catholic faith and Baptism.

[@francesbonner3721]

Jeremiah 17:9 certainly challenges the idea that people are inherently good. “The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked, who can know it?” That’s why we need a Saviour…praise God for sending His Son. Fran🙏🏻

[@EmberBright2077]

We can easily understand that as concupiscence, as Trent explains in the video.

[@francesbonner3721]

I have to respectfully disagree with Trent though when he says “…we still have that light of God within us” because Jesus says in John 8:44 “Ye are of your father the devil…”. It is not pretty but it is truth from Truth Himself. Paul says in Romans 7:18 “For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing…” Again, that’s why we need a Saviour and we can only be justified when we are clothed in His righteousness.

[@EmberBright2077]

@@francesbonner3721 We're not arguing that we don't need a saviour. The better argument would be Human nature, as created by God, is good. Sins are acts contrary to that nature, and we have concupiscence from the Fall, which pushes us to those sins.

[@LorenzoMelchionda-lp2cu]

I hope to see more of debates between Ben and Trent. Ben always treats Christianity with great respect.

[@LittlefootRoseRocker]

Awww the Raphael painting in the back was the background of my wedding invitations❤️

[@averykempf9164]

Trent: "Sin is something deep within the human condition that we need our Lord and Savior to eradicate." Ben: I got to shut this down

[@hross1991]

Great stuff Trent!!! Thank you for all your work! Praise God!!!!

[@atgred]

I speak Spanish, but just after the word “fundamentalmente”, I can’t distinguish the word “good”, “bueno”, because of the voice over. But most certainly that is what he said.

[@robideals685]

Our Pope is here for a reason in these times, all praise be to God!! So happy to have his ministry of Mercy and Love during so much hate and ignorance.

[@frankiecal3186]

Yup he's a fruad

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

So promoting communism is promoting the gospel? Promoting ideals that are found in godless freemasonry? That’s part of promoting the gospel? Did I miss something when he attacked large Catholic families by saying they breed like rabbits?

[@ponti5882]

⁠​⁠@@femaleKCRoyalsFanI think what especially isn’t promoting the Gospel is bearing false witness.

[@jsharp9735]

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10: 18

[@jsharp9735]

@@femaleKCRoyalsFan Jesuits are the marxist of the RCC and the ones pushing all the immigrations into the USA.....Most Christians who claim to be progressive are RC.

[@aliciavelarde6200]

I love it when two of my favorite podcasters are on together.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

Awesome

[@lisabeck6264]

Love seeing your channel grow Trent! Recently I have been seeing many comments directly attributing their conversion or reversion to your content - keep up the good work!

[@orbeuniversity]

Thank you for sharing this. The studio looks great. I see there is a curtain there on the side. I hope that everyone now and then you open it to get some natural light in the studio. Nothing beats natural light. :-) All the best and God Bless.

[@brendansheehan6180]

The Trent and Ben show. Im into it.

[@Adrian1trk]

that's exscly what he said, that we are fundamentaly good, I'd love to listen to what he says withour the translator's voice on top of his.

[@tonyl3762]

The context of the interview question was human behavior, not human dignity. So in context, what the pope said was still problematic, if not completely incorrect.

[@rylewx]

@@tonyl3762”What inspires you?” was the question.

[@Marcus-lj8lc]

We all want to be good (or should want) and anything against that would be our weakness and battle against sin.

[@samcowell5465]

Perhaps its just me, but I really could not care less what Ben Shapiro has to say about Catholicism (or anything, for that matter)

[@Joker22593]

"I entered into a thread about something I don't like, and now I'm mad. How could this have happened to me?"

[@TheCounselofTrent]

I'm not putting Shapiro out as an expert on this matter but sharing my approach to explaining the Catholic faith to him and his audience and finding common ground about human nature.

[@randycarson9812]

@@TheCounselofTrent Trent, a KZbinr known as "Todd Thinks" called you out specifically in a lengthy video entitled, *Trent Horn Poorly defends Mary's "perpetual virginity"* . I made all the usual Catholic Answers arguments in the comments, but then he challenged me to come on his channel and debate him. That's not my thing, but I'm sure he would love to have you. Check it out.

[@domanicvaldez]

@@randycarson9812is Todd the guy that got clapped by Ferris from How to be Christian. Is it that Todd?

[@tomthx5804]

Its just you.

[@gkman6953]

I must say that I am very impressed how Trent will make it a deliberate point to shoehorn our need for the gospel of Jesus Christ into such an interview, especially noting that the interviewer is opposed to such a view. Very well done Trent!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Ben isn't even opposed to hearing that. He's too used to rubbing shoulders w/ Christians. I think everyone on his DW network is Christian besides him. Maybe Peterson, who is in an odd neutral zone, but strongly culturally Christian too.

[@fedmcfederalson]

Before hearing much of the video, I'd say yes

[@jmctigret]

Nice video

[@TheMoreYouSew]

Thanks so much for the response on this. Could you do a more elaborate video on it? Especially the "the heart is good" comment?

[@johndeighan2495]

I think it’s really important - and Catholic - to say we’re fundamentally good, as long as the word “good” is understood in an ontological sense, not a moral sense.

[@tomthx5804]

But is "ontological" understood in the ontological sense?

[@_ROMANS_116]

What does the Bible say? Are any good? Are you thinking you are made in God’s image?

[@christianman73]

@@_ROMANS_116 Did you carefully read the comment to which you are replying here? Do you know what the word, "ontological," means, in the comment? The Catholic Church *does not teach* that we are morally good without God's transformative grace in Christ. The Catholic Church *does* teach, in line with Sacred Scripture, that our existence, as human beings, is a good thing, because to teach that it would be better for human beings *not to exist* would actually be a nihilistic and Satanic teaching.

[@justchilling704]

That’s the case for all Christians even, we are ontologically good however not every individual chooses to behave morally.

[@gustavusadolphus4344]

​@@_ROMANS_116 the root word of fundamentally is foundation. Are you going to say that the foundations of humanity are not good? God says otherwise in genesis 1

[@vilikatavuki5518]

All these shows in modern reality won't be the same in the near future

[@jeromevillanueva2207]

I would like to see the Pantocrator icon again in your set.

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

Shapiro misspoke. Man being in God's image doesn't "come from Aquinas.".... It's right there in Genesis

Spanish speaker here. I confirm he literally said "fundamentally good."

[@ashleyargall8791]

Could you hear what he said in Spanish for the “rogues and sinners” part?

[@amt4653]

But he didn't say "all", so it's still a mistranslation

@@ashleyargall8791 "Por ahí somos un poco pícaros y pecadores"

[@emilio6425]

@@ashleyargall8791 There is a Spanish version that doesn’t have the English voiceover and you can hear what he said. He has an Argentinian accent Ha ha ha so i might have missed a word but I think you said “Todos son pecadores” “somos fundamentalmente buena somos pícaros , pecadores pero el corazón es bueno” I would translate that to we are sinners but we are fundamentally good”. Their translation was very weird, but i dont feel like it changed the significant idea.

[@amt4653]

I went to look at a fuller transcript, and he did say "todos" (all), they just cut that part.

[@Jose-ru2wf]

People nitpick with no charity. He did say "fundamentally good", but he meant everyone has the ability for good, i.e. all *can* be saved

[@jonbolton491]

He did not mean that. He said, " We are all fundamentally good. Yes there are SOME rogues and sinners but the heart itself is good." Does that correspond with church teaching? Is it not from the heart that evil arises? Mark 7: 21-23.

[@Jose-ru2wf]

@@jonbolton491 I rest my case. You're nitpicking with no charity as I said. Well done one-upping the pope, I bet you feel real righteous right now.

[@jonbolton491]

@@Jose-ru2wf No, I don't. If I'm wrong, tell me where I'm wrong. Make the case for it. Don't just say 'nitpicking with no charity'. Show us where we are being uncharitable and I'll correct myself here online.

[@Jose-ru2wf]

@@jonbolton491 You can tell it is what he meant because it makes sense with the other things he said in the same interview, like that we're all sinners, himself included (not that "society" or "capitalism" makes us sinners; rather, we are it). Your interpretation doesn't make sense with that. Moreover the idea that the pope doesn't know your Isaiah quote is ludicrous; charity means not assuming ignorance on his part but yours; you might be the one missing something when things don't seem to add up. In this case, a charitable understanding means harmonizing what he said with your bible quote. I have offered an interpretation that does all that: it makes sense with the rest of the interview as well as broader catholic teaching. It's up to you to mount a case that will make it sound sensible to claim that the pope is contradicting basic teachings and doesn't know his bible.

[@partydean17]

Dang that point about the inconsistency there at the end seems very obvious but yeah you're right

[@ThatElephantSeal]

I've fully swallowed the medieval-pill in regards to human goodness = That humans were designed purposefully to be good by God but that our hearts are stained with original sin, therefore it is not illogical to be suspicious of another's intent due to our capacity to fall into temptation and sin, but it is in itself sinful to view others as innately evil when it would be more accurate to state that an individual is corrupted or poisoned by evil. The more liberal/secular belief that people are innately good but without a concept of original sin (or sin in general) is flawed as they have no answer for the question of evil, which is ironic as many who hold this view screech about things such as racism/sexism/greed without an explanation to their causes aside from self-destructive argumentation. (How can something be evil without objective morality?) The converse concept that humans are innately evil is also flawed as it has the opposite problem; no satisfactory explanation for human goodness. I have seen arguments by people defending this view that rely on Gods grace to explain goodness, but this seems flimsy and inconsistent depending on which denomination holds the view. I had one even argue that non-christians were incapable of goodness regardless of what they do, but this was to be expected from a Calvinist.

[@ambbarofficial]

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone

[@SonicSnakeRecords]

In Mark 10:18, Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." This verse highlights the greatness and holiness of God and reminds us that He alone is perfect and without sin. As Catholics, we strive to follow God's example of goodness, mercy, and love in our daily lives, knowing that we are called to constantly seek holiness and rely on His grace to transform us. This verse challenges us to humbly recognize our own imperfections and rely on God's goodness to guide us on our spiritual journey.

[@mojo1829]

Packed you up and got you out of there when you mentioned our Lord and Saviour lol

[@cjfranklin1301]

We need a Trent v Shapiro debate

[@TheCASSMAN777]

No, Shapiro only debates stupid college kids, and not competent people.

[@Bxtcxt1865]

As Spanish speakers I can tell you, it’s crazy how much gets mistranslated to English to fit and agenda.

[@DonaldRome]

I was homeless, did drugs, went into prison, where I got to know God. He changed my life. Now I have a home, a wife and a lovely year old daughter (zoe), and a stream of income that gats me $47,000 weekly. Plus a new identity - a child of God, Hallelujah!!!🇺🇲❣️♥️❤️

[@LaylaMailey]

GOD bless you more abundantly for your generosity

[@LaylaMailey]

I'm genuinely curious to know how you earn that much weekly

[@DonaldRome]

Big thanks to Elizabeth Marie Hawley

[@DonaldRome]

Her top notch guidance and expertise on digital market changed the game for me

[@DonaldRome]

Big thanks to Elizabeth Marie Hawley

[@hacker4chn841]

I want to see Trent debate Ben. That would be a debate for the ages.

[@dsha2006]

Was this convo in real time with Shapiro? From the editing, it looks like he may have recorded them in advance and had you interact later and edit together for the appearance of a live conversation.

[@dodrian]

I'm honestly often confused when the Pope speaks, I'm glad Trent is able to explain what he meant in a better way.

[@noneofyourbusiness7965]

Humans are not fundamentally good. This is a false statement. Could have been mistranslated or maybe he misspoke but his statement was nonsense.

[@Pe1ayo]

@@noneofyourbusiness7965 If you don't believe that humans are fundamentally good you can't believe in salvation or that Jesus is God.

[@noneofyourbusiness7965]

@@Pe1ayo I believe that humans are good in a sense and can have goodness within them but the Church has always historically taught that humans are not fundamentally good. Romans 3:10-12. We do not have fundamental goodness, this is false.

[@matthewoburke7202]

@@noneofyourbusiness7965 Yes you are correct, and yeah Pope Francis got mistranslated there. We can speak of humans as being fundamentally good in the ontological sense, since we bear the image of God. But in the moral sense, no, no one can be righteous without the grace of God working in them.

[@matthewoburke7202]

@@Pe1ayo In the ontological sense, yes, we are created in God's image. But in the moral sense, everyone falls short of righteousness. Only with God's grace can we do good, "for apart from me you can do nothing".

[@bman5257]

Calvinists when a Christian says something positive about God’s creation: 🤬

[@GratiaPrima_]

Right?!

[@Migler1]

Uh, no. That is a grave misrepresentation.

[@billystorrs6054]

​@@Migler1Is it really? They believe in total depravity.

[@bman5257]

@@Migler1 Yeah it was a joke I was exaggerating a bit. It is strange how much Calvinists love talking about how fundamentally evil we are and how bad we need to be punished going far beyond what the Scripture actually says in its full content. Strikes me as a bit masochistic to be honest.

[@AndrewKendall71]

I wish Francis had P56 from Gaudete... memorized as the answer to the interviewer's question. It's too important to allow the reason for the gospel itself to be misunderstood.

[@angelalemos9811]

I like how you were on his show to discuss another topic. Hopefully, it won't be the last. Please just promise me Trent that no matter the question, you won't shy away from speaking the truth and saying what needs to be said😊. I'll go watch it, but truth be told Shapiro has annoyed me with his recent shenanigans involving Candace Owens (who's now a sister, praise the Lord).

[@rick2402]

I was wondering when you were gonna talk to this guy!

[@komnennos]

The translation was wrong apparently, supposedly he actually said we are a little roguish and sinful and not thay there are a few rogues and sinners

[@arteotomiMexico]

Hi, I Speak Spanish and the translation was perfect: 1. "Somos fundamentalmente buenos" ---------- We are fundamentally good. 2. "Pero el corazon es bueno", it translates -------------The heart is good" If you notice, those words are so similar, they dont leave room for mistakes in translation.

[@Laura-ef3mm]

​@@arteotomiMexicouna simple corrección, te olvidaste del "pero" (but) jaja re detalle igual

[@matthewoburke7202]

Why does this not surprise me I wonder? lol

[@arteotomiMexico]

@@Laura-ef3mm Cierto, pero no cambia la frase ;) El corazon es bueno. Pero el corazon es bueno

[@nethrelm]

@@arteotomiMexico Okay, but that isn't the apparent error the OP brought up. It was the line about rogues and sinners. Was that line translated correctly? Did he say "there are a few rogues and sinners," or did he say "we are a little roguish and sinful"?

[@mancal5829]

He did say that.

[@trad-lite]

Watching Ben, who already speaks a mile a minute, speak even faster while reading a quote is hilarious.

[@zeroisnine]

Without innate goodness, human beings wouldn't have the capacity to sin

[@riverasamuel911]

that probably is the perfect answer.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

Why is that the case?

[@sivad1025]

​@@Heinrich.Denzinger Because sin is a moral choice to abdicate our duties to do good. You need to deliberately do the evil act for it to be sinful

[@palermotrapani9067]

@@Heinrich.Denzinger Perhaps because sin and evil is not something Catholic Doctrine defines, it is in theology the lack of something. That is sin and evil is the lack of what is good and Holy which flows from the nature of God Himself.

[@kharismabaptiswan1754]

​@@Heinrich.DenzingerBecause everything created by God has state of being, that is innate goodness. Human nature is fundamentally good. This state of being (good) changes when privation enters this nature.

[@ThatIndianCatholic]

In my country India, the self proclaimed liberal priest told a seminarian friend of mine that masturbation is ok. Many progressive priests believe this n he was shocked n wanted to leave the priesthood. I'm a liberal, but I don't say such far left stuff

[@Jerome616]

Disgusting!!!

[@cv5369]

I used to follow Shapiro religiously till I realized the dude is all about his religion and motherland. Nothing wrong with that but I strongly prefer to watch theological POV’s from the pope and other Christians

[@alexegus71]

I just heard what he said in Spanish And yes, he says we are fundamentally good

[@bdwoody]

There's another comment about how Argentinians use fundamentally more like "literally" is used in our daily speech which really does change how you interpret that sentence

[@alexegus71]

@bdwoody that's a good take, same as when Americans use LIKE for everything, and meaning different things

[@3339ty]

I didn’t know that question of the interview would be controversial. Whenever I heard his answer, it didn’t lead me to believe that it was against what the church taught or that it could be construed in that way. Maybe that it goes against the Total Depravity teaching of Calvinism it’s controversial?

[@irritated888]

Pretty much yes.

[@IoannesVI]

Romans 2: 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

[@valen0276]

The translation is wrong. "We are fundamentally good. We're also rogues and sinners but the hear itself is good."

[@JohnR.T.B.]

"As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." - Genesis 50: 20

[@Ra20233]

If we (Catholics) believed all people were good, we wouldn't have the Sacrament of Confession.

[@classicworks0316]

Adam and Eve were good and yet they sinned and fell.

[@CesarScur]

God bless you @TheCounselofTrent I think it would be more charitable to say that what the Pope said must be understood this way and not that way instead of saying "I wish Pope had not said x" What Pope said could be miss interpreted indeed, but his intention is to speak to the heart and not the mind and transmit the hope of the truth. It is truth that our fallen human nature is corrupted by sin. But the foundation of our nature is definitively good as we were created good. We ought to search and find the truth in every word SPECIALLY the Pope. Please teach this. As a revert from atheism I know that most bad things I did I did because I was mislead. As an atheist I intended to follow the truth. People are more good than bad. Our difficulty is not in the good vs bad but in the good vs perfect.

[@tonyl3762]

The context of the interview question was human behavior, not human dignity. So in context, what the pope said was still problematic, if not completely incorrect.

[@CesarScur]

@@tonyl3762 who are we to judge one another? Seek understanding should come first. Specially when judging the Father given by the Holy Spirit. I know we have, specially me, a hard time abiding in this.

[@rylewx]

@@tonyl3762Please, explain… The question was “What inspires you?”.

[@tonyl3762]

@@rylewx Did you watch the whole interview up to that question (which was "what gives you hope?)? The context was clearly all the bad things human beings supposedly do today. There is also the context of his statements throughout his pontificate, de-emphasizing the need for true repentance. Even in the interview, he said all are welcome without mentioning any need for repentance. He basically said any scandalous person was welcome and that "we can figure out how to handle [the scandal] once they are in." It's not prudent or accurate to say the human heart or the fundamental goodness of people gives hope. God gives hope to the human heart. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander" (Mt 15:19).

[@rylewx]

@@tonyl3762 Yes I watched. All are welcome, and then we sort them out. Same as he said about migrants. Get them started so they can begin the process of repentance, which goes without saying. If we say repent before you enter the doors, ppl won’t know what to do. We get them in and tell/show them. People are fundamentally good. We were made in the image of God, to be good. I’d say that’s about as fundamental as it gets.

[@jimnewl]

Man must be fundamentally good, because if he wasn't he would be totally depraved. Man lost his perfection through sin, but he didn't lose everything. He still remains ordered to his own happiness, for example, even if he commonly mistakes other ends for his true happiness, God. Thus, the underlying framework of goodness and proper order remains in him, and that is what the Pope means by the phrase "fundamentally good."

[@sethlikes2lift]

I miss the old studio with the icon of christ in the back

[@rebeccagibson838]

The silence that follows Trent's message about the Gospel and the need for Jesus Christ. 😅 Great work, Trent! Glad to see you on Shapiro more and more.

[@SuperMeatBoa]

TRENT “THE MAN” HORN. Also, he did say people are fundamentally good, I’m fluent in Spanish.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

What does it mean fundamentally? How fundamental? It was an hour interview not a nuanced theological discussion. If you want that read the catechism. He did say we were all sinners too.

[@SuperMeatBoa]

@@wednesdayschild3627 Relax, Trent was asking if he actually said it, since the translation got a couple things wrong.

[@rylewx]

@@wednesdayschild3627We were created in God’s image; created in goodness. That’s pretty fundamental!

[@kenhilker2507]

What's the 'null' here? Do you have an example of someone born and raised without a society, to use as a reference when evaluating whether they behave good or bad?

[@DanyTV79]

Great video as always! As a Catholic and Spanish native speaker, he didn't say inherently good but fundamentally. i don't get where Ben Shapiro gets those things about structures making people bad, but what the Pope says is true, today systems help to spread evil everywhere. We're watching now this happenning in culture. But I think Pope Francis simplifies too much a very deep and complicated issue. But, stills the Pope.

[@GabrielMartinez-sd8pc]

If humanity is fundamentally good, the Gospel is worthless.